Look around and you’d be forgiven for feeling the world is completely broken in 2024. War. Division. Crises. How did we get here? That’s the fundamental question Norwegian songwriter AURORA explores on her latest album What Happened To The Heart?. It’s a project that is technicolor in feeling, and in sound.
Host Greg Cochrane went to meet her to talk about activism, conflict and why she and the iconic Brian Eno are like “an old married couple”. It’s a deep listen, for sure, but these are deep times – even if you can focus on the glimmers of light.
You can watch clips of the podcast online now, just give us a follow on Instagram @midnightchatspod.
Links to stuff mentioned in the episode:
Hear Brian Eno discussing his work with AURORA on episode 127 of Midnight Chats
The letter ‘We Are The Earth’ by Sônia Guajajara and Célia Xakriabá
Credits:
Interview by Greg Cochrane
Editing by Stuart Stubbs
Mixing and mastering by Flo Lines
Artwork by Kate Prior
Video by Robbie Hamilton
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
But what do we value now? It's total shit to
be famous on an app famous shit. Contributing to the
world is beautiful and we can all do that.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Another day, Done in the bin. Welcome to Midnight Chats
with myself, Stuart Stubbs. Greg Cochran is also here. You're
going to hear him speaking one second, But first I'm
going to tell you that this is the late night
Interview podcast where Greg and I interview musicians that we like.
Last week we had something different, we had our Glassonbury review.
So we're back with a guest and Greg, you've spoke
(00:39):
to Aurora.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I did in the World's Hottest Room? What really? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Please?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Was this during hot It was this during heat wavetime?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
No, it was just like at the top of a
tower block in a small room that was ninety Glass
and Ura and I were just in there, just sweating together.
But not that that didn't make this, you know, pleasurable.
The found it was like a sauna.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm glad it wasn't me because I have found increasingly
when I do my interviews for this podcast that at
the beginning of them, I profusely sweat. And it's a
new thing. It's a problem because.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I thought we were presenting that as like, hey, positive,
a new thing.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
No, it's a problem for two reasons. One is if
they're face to face, the artist can see how much
sweat is pouring from my head. But also because we're
having to film these now for like little clips that
we put on our social channel at on our Instagram
account Midnight Chat Pod. If you do want to see
me sweating, you can just go and have a look
at that. I'm glad I wasn't in the this oven
(01:45):
like room because it probably wouldn't be broadcastable.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, that sounds like some kind of ASMR type thing,
like go and check out those videos of Stu sweating
if that's you, If that's your kind of bag. Aurora
was one of my favorite performers at Glastonbury. That happened
last week, but I got to speak to before that.
I love Aurora. I know that some people might be
surprised to hear that, but yeah, I think like the
if you do. If you don't know her that well,
(02:09):
the Norwegian songwriter is you know, she's been making music
for kind of a decade or more, even though she's
still really really young, and but she put out her
most recent album, What Happened to the Heart in June,
and it's had amazing reviews, and it was just really
great conversation with Aurora. She is very, very thoughtful, very
(02:30):
kind of like surreal character as well, like kind of
has this like sort of impish, like naughty sense of humor,
but also really really thinks deeply about the world. So
this conversation is is fairly deep. I kind of make
no apologies for that. Like on midnight chats, sometimes the
conversations that we share with you are a bit silly,
(02:52):
because you know, at the midnight hour sometimes you know,
you have all types of conversations like I thinking of
Yard Act and rose Matta Faya a few weeks ago
was thoroughly entertaining the kind of thing of you know,
rolling back home after being in the in the pub.
Aurora was like that almost like the opposite end of that.
I've just been like quite having that sort of like
quite reflective moment to think about the state of the
world right now. That's that's the sort of main thing
(03:15):
that sits at the middle of this album, you know,
What Happened to the Heart, She's asking that question of
being like the world's not in a great place right now?
What happened to like our heart, our empathy, our humanity?
Like how have we got here? So the substance of
the album is pretty heavy, and so therefore, you know,
just naturally the conversation is as well. But I thoroughly
(03:35):
urge people to go and check it out. It is
musically incredibly diverse. There are some bangers on there, there
are some like folk tunes on there. There is all
sorts going on. I do think she's an incredibly magnetic, natural,
just curious kind of performer that's like not fake in
any way, and so I just think she's the more
pop stars like Aurora. She's such a great conversation as well.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I've got nothing to add to that. That was a
bit too good. I'm just gonna say right now, here
is episode one hundred and thirty nine. Nothing more from me.
You should probably doing this podcast on your own, Greg.
Here is Aurora or midnight Chats.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Sometimes when I wake up really early, my mind gets
really sad because it wants to be in bed, I think,
so something in me goes, Oh, I feel kind of depressed,
but then it is just that I'm tired, and then yeah,
so I woke up, felt like I didn't know who
I was, where I was, and my window was open,
(04:47):
and I have these seagulls who are just having a
party every day outside my window, and they were having
a go at each other. It was lovely to listen to.
And I and out of bed. I accidentally it was
too late, so I just put on this. I'm literally
(05:08):
wearing a wedding dress to the people who are who
cannot see, but here, I'm wearing a wedding dress. And yeah,
then I just jumped into a cab. Had a beautiful
time on the plane. The clouds looked so gorgeous. I
almost cried, or I did cry. Let's be honest, it's
(05:28):
an honesty time here. But I did cry on the
plane because the clouds just looked like I just understood
why we would have met, why we would imagine people
who die going to heaven there, because it just looked
like the most perfect place. It made it all made sense.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
It's no wonder that we have these sort of like
deeply emotional moments sometimes on aeroplanes. It seems that, like
I think it's a mixture of the sort of wonder
of being like I'm thirty five thousand feet in the
sky looking over the world, and also the lack of
oxygen or the sort of recycled oxygen where you're just
like you just suddenly feel like super emotional.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, it's super hard, Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
There's so much depth to get into in terms of
talking about this new album that you've made. I wondered,
like how it's been talking about the record so far,
because it is an album that I don't know. It
feels like it's sort of an invitation to get in
some really deep topics and some deep reflections on where
you're at, but also kind of where the world's at
at the moment.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
It's not difficult per se, but it's it's a per
se but anyways isn't It's not difficult, but it's it's
kind of it's exhausting be in the same way as
running is, so you feel kind of wonderful laughter, but
it feels like a workout for the mind and the heart.
(06:51):
Just these are very like, very big, vast things that
I'm trying to explain, even more specifically than with my music,
which first is my best try and explaining what's going
on in my head. Is the album itself and then
comes my second try in explaining that again, I learned
(07:16):
a lot about myself and what I really mean and
how I should speak to people about important things, because
the words you choose are very important. Words are like weapons,
and there's small changes can make a very big difference.
The album's called What Happened to the Heart?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Indeed it is. I remember when you first started releasing
music off this album, or that you kind of like
started speaking to your audience about the fact there was
going to be new music to come. You're very open
about the fact you're like releasing music into this moment
where there's sort of like a lot of deep, deep
pain in the world, division, polarization, there's so much to
be upset about, really that you kind of like you
(08:00):
felt torn. You were in two minds as to whether
this was the right moment to sort of like share
music in the first instance.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Well, the world has been going through a crisis for many, many,
many years all over the world. But it seems too
human kind that whenever the pain around us is far
away in a very outer outer circle, we don't really
care about it. We are really brought up, especially in
(08:29):
the Western world, to really or basically everywhere to only
care about our inner circle, our blood, our neighbor, and
that's it, not even our neighbor, actually just our blood.
And then with you know, with the world's involvement and
(08:49):
with the Internet, you would think that that circle would
expand much more of how far we can stretch our empathy,
but our empathy doesn't stretch far at all. It seems
like because we're letting the planet die, we're letting children die,
(09:12):
we are making fun of the people who are trying
to call out that are how we are, Like what
we're doing in the world now is wrong and so disconnected.
So it's a very like even though the world has
been going through so much pain for so many years,
(09:33):
now it's even more vibrant on our phones with Palestine
and Gaza, which is just another example of a whole
people in pain far from our reach. But still the
importance of raising our voices on others' behalf is more
(09:56):
important than ever. It's like we're give even the chance
to really see how people are being treated, and so
many people are quiet, which completely blows my mind. And
(10:16):
then when the world is going through when it feels
like the world is burning, which in some parts it
literally is it's hard to think about or I become
very existential. It's hard to think about small things like
clothes and interviews or promoting or out like it just
(10:39):
seems like shit to me.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
There's so much bigger things out there that need our
attention and our energy. Yeah, that I totally understand that
some of those things can sort of feel maybe inconsequential
in comparison, but they I think they're still important. I
absolutely love the album. I feel like it's really radical,
like a really radical album that I don't know whether
people can like or like a radical voice, like in
(11:03):
terms of your artistry. And also you're you're kind of
like you know, using a voice in interviews or whatever.
But for me, like, the album's really radical because it's
kind of I think you're sharing thoughts on something that's
so central, like that that central question of like what
happened to the heart? Like it's really a kind of
like a question about sort of evolution of humanity, right, so,
(11:27):
like how we've got to this point? How have we
got to the point where yeah, there's a there's a
genocide happening, you know, a few thousand miles away from us,
But yeah, we'd feel disconnected from that, or that doesn't
feel like our reality, or we feel powerless. Presumably a
lot of the feelings and the thoughts have gone into
this album have been kind of swirling around in your
head for probably a number of years. But then from
what I understand, it was a couple of years ago
(11:49):
where you kind of you read a text that was
co written by a collection of indigenous activists and it
really spoke to you, and it obviously kind of like
was that a moment where almost like pieces of a
jigsaw kind of came together and you thought, No, what
I really am asking the question is what happens to
the heart of humanity? What happens to empathy and compassion?
(12:11):
To sort of get to the root of like, how
do we find ourselves here?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Now? Well, I'm always these important spiritual parts of my being,
empathic parts of my being who are very aware of
interconnectedness and coexistence, and you know, I'm here with people.
I need to be here with people, and it's not
about me, it's about us, and blah blah blah. That
(12:37):
part wakes up and goes to sleep all your life
because it's not possible to be on it all the time,
and sometimes because of the pleasures of the world or
the agony of the world, can easily make you forget
about that spiritual part of yourself for a little bit,
and then it reawakens them. That's how it is. But
(12:59):
in the COVID times it really woke up. It shook
my core the oh my god, look how vulnerable we
are and how we are reacting to having a common enemy,
someone who is against all of us a disease. And
I was like, oh my god, look it feels like
(13:20):
the world is more in touch with things. But then
it just went back to normal. And it wasn't a
day that happened, but I just kind of slowly noticed
the world just going back to normal, and it actually
really broke my heart on behalf of my nephew children
(13:47):
who are young still one years old. It really made
me sad to see that not even something like that
can shake enough to actually permanently change the things we
need so desperately to change. I didn't know what to
(14:10):
do with that, and that highly affected the way I wrote,
the way I lived, the way I looked at people.
And then I waited until my mind was filled with
enough light, optimism and hope and love. So it's because
I don't like to write in destructive states of mind,
(14:32):
because then I feel like the music becomes very dark,
which I like, but dark and the wrong way. So
I waited until I felt ready, and then one day
I was, you know, as I was as I found
the title of the album, what Happened to the Heart,
(14:53):
just as I was writing the no I was writing,
just as I was reading the letter we are the
Earth pledging for the world to act more with a
heart and less with a mind. And I should completely
agree whoever let us here fucked us all up because
(15:13):
this world isn't doing good for over half of us,
So whoever let us here didn't really do a good job.
And if the abilities we value in our leaders are strong, opinioned,
strong minded, determined, a bit cold, not too emotion null, loud,
(15:42):
while we are completely lacking in this world a touch
that is emotional, empathic, caring, motherly, feminine, which makes sense
because women haven't been able to lead the world the
last ten thousand years except for a few queens and Cleopatra.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
I remember having a great conversation with the artist Andy
who performs us and only in the Johnson's at the
moment and then only was saying that to fix what's happening,
particularly with global heating and climate change, is we need
radical new leadership. But we also need feminine energy to
come to the forefront, and we need we need, we
need an overhaul of the systems that we know have
(16:30):
not been working now for centuries. We need a different
type of leadership. And what we need is so many
more women in this positions of leadership, not in just
in climate but in politics, in our economics, in our businesses,
in our communities, Like we need that at the forefront.
That is the change that we need, and we also
need to have a recognition that the way that we've
done it has not worked, So why not let's embrace
(16:53):
that change. And that was an one's feeling on that,
and it was really resonant, and you kind of like
it's very hard to like, I would love to see
that happen.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I know, it's very obvious that what we crave is
balance in all things, you know, and now it's so
unbalanced because women Luckily, a lot of women who have
invented things, they got the chance to invent things, they
just didn't get to have the credit for it, but
(17:27):
at least they got to invent them, which have also
helped driven driving the world forward. But it's funny when
we crave balance and justice. The people who experienced peace
were the people on the top. Well the same piece
for the people at the bottom were oppression. And when
(17:51):
the oppressed starts rioting, you treat them as terrorists, you know,
or when the oppressed starts rioting, we treated as something
out of the blue and something unjustified, something hostile, when
(18:12):
all they're asking for is peace for them as well
for us as well. It's the same that's happening in
Palisada and Israel. We are blaming a group of people
who have been oppressed for being a terrorist, when fifteen
years ago, when you know it, or maybe not, it's
(18:37):
a long thing to go into, so maybe not that.
But we are blaming, yeah, groups who are trying to
fight for peace for all and not understanding why they
turned out like they did. Because every oppressed group has
to riot somehow, and if something or someone doesn't listen
(19:00):
to them, ever, it will eventually turn into war. It
will turn bad in human history. So the sooner we
listen to the oppressed, whoever that is, and we realize
that even though I experience this time as peaceful, it's
not peace for everyone. Piece is a useless word to many.
(19:25):
We need liberation and balance is much more. And I
feel like many people are reacting to women asking for peace,
no for balance, with being feeling very threatened, which is
also enhancing the division and making everything even more unstable.
(19:48):
Men more unstable, the leader's men vote are very unstable men.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
When you sort of focus on that fundamental question of
like of like what happened to the heart in humanity?
You went away and you kind of like studied and
you read what did you discover? And did we have it?
Did we lose it?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
I think you see proof that we had it, whatever
it is, and that we've always had it because we
have these abilities to hold each other, look at each other.
We make each other laugh and that makes us happy.
(20:34):
We make art, we make food. It's just amazing the
things we do as a species. I find an incredibly
beautiful food. Art, music has always been there. Family, community, villages,
driving the world forward, driving our family forward, expanding all
(20:58):
of these things that kind of we have valued throughout history.
But what do we value now? It's total shit to
be famous on an app It blows my mind. Famous
(21:18):
shit contributing to the world is beautiful and we can
all do that.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
It sounds like one of the big questions that almost
splintered off your exploration of the album title was this
idea of like when did human contentment change? You know,
a good life wasn't a life full of things? Like
a good life was a life full of heart and love,
And yet you're right, like that's sort of gone away
now and we all feel a lot of us feel
(21:49):
lonely that we don't feel like society serving us. We
don't feel like, you know, our communities are serving us.
We don't feel like, you know, we're being paid fairly,
and like just this sense of like kind of human
brokenness seems to be sort of omnipresent, and I think
it does come back a lot to that question that
you raise their around like contentment, about what are the
things you truly need in your life to be like,
(22:10):
I've got everything I need? Is this is the best
of what I ever need. Is because I've got my
dog and my cat and my garden, and I'm my
community and I'm happy.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
But like kids now, nineteen year olds I feel like
they in a new way, are just really unsure if
they'll ever for that with how things are going in
the world, and it's just interesting to see how we're
holding just human contentment, good word out of humans reach.
(22:45):
I have a song called Starvation, which I've made a
video for where I'm picturing just this image. You'll notice
because we are making people dream about so much that
we forget to just that what makes us happy is
to do something that is useful. I don't know why
(23:08):
we make offices so boring. It's like prisons. It's just
like prisons. Look at these buildings. Looks we're sitting just
next to this iron square buildings. It looks like prisons
where people are just trapped inside making their whole life
(23:28):
just passed through their fingers. How do we get here?
But also, dear listener to whoever is listening, and if
you made it this far, thank you.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
And we're still here.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
We haven't evaporated or died, and neither will you. Together
we shall prevail. But really I know this just to
you specifically, who's listening. I know this sounds like a lot,
and it is a lot, but I think it's just
it's more things and big things about the world who
made me ask the question what happened to the heart?
(24:07):
But I wouldn't ask the question if I didn't believe
that it would serve a purpose, that there would be
people out there who would feel the same, and that
we could actually do something. So I don't ask it
because I'm pessimistic, A tad disappointed, maybe, but it's absolutely
(24:27):
because I am optimistic. I just know we got into
a deep hole there, and I don't want you to
fall into the hole along with everyone else. I want
you to do the exact opposite, and to get off
the phone as well, stretch your spine, eat something beautiful,
(24:48):
make something from scratch, and feel how good it feels
to eat something you've made. I don't know, I just
felt like I had to say something beautiful amongst all
the hell I was raising on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
If we need humanity to rediscover heart in our systems
and our decision making, what signs have you seen of
the heart like emerging and you kind of being when
you went on this journey of kind of like asking
that question, It sounds like you know, and you've kind
of called for a sort of we need like a
small revolution you know we need, we do need a
step change in our things. So what signs do you
(25:32):
see of encouragement that that might happen.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I think the people we surround ourselves with, the people
will look up to, and then making sure you become
a person you will look up to as well in
this life. Okay, there's a monster here. How I judge
(26:05):
people and what happened to the heart is how we
behave to everyone we don't hear? Do we punish them
for simply existing, for being smaller, for being weaker, for
speaking in a language we don't understand? Do we simply
take and punish the earth just because she begs for
(26:26):
help in a language we don't even hear most of us?
Do we do these things simply because it doesn't look
like our actions has any consequences? Consequence? I don't know
how to say that word sounds so weird in my mouth.
It tastes word. But you know this is simply because
(26:47):
we can and why That's how I judge people. It's
about and I feel like the few things left in
this earth that talks in the language that we us
up is food and music and art and nature and people.
(27:10):
I need to look at all these five things and
think if the only music I listen to has no
soul be guesse. There is so much music with no soul.
I've heard it, so have you. There's food without soul.
There are people that doesn't inspire your soul, and all
these things. I just want to make sure we surround
(27:34):
ourselves with also role models that just something to us.
Stop watching their Kardashians and watch yourself in the mirror,
bitch like it's I feel like it's important because we're
about to completely surround ourselves with this important language that
(27:58):
has nothing to say, and then we're just dead. And
I think we need to really rethink our influences, especially
the food we eat. Oh my god, make sure it's
it's connected to the earth, and I really think it's
going to make us feel better. We need to stop
(28:18):
being on our phones. Yeah, what the fuck? Where they who?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Like?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
And all of this is very connected to the the
album as well. This kind of these are all things
that I've been thinking about a lot while writing.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
You spoke there about soul, Like one of the tracks
on the album is a soul with no King.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, this is exactly about that.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah, I wanted to ask about So we had Brian
Eno on the podcast a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Oh beautiful.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Yeah, and Brian and I spoke about you. Do you
al Mays play the clip of Brian talking about you.
Would you like to hear this? Yes? This is good,
so listeners. This is because I know you really got
on well and you had a great time together.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
We have a beautiful connection. He feels like it's so mad.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Yeah, this is Brian, you know, talking about Aurora and.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
One is with the Norwegian singer Aurora, who's one of
the most extraordinary people I've ever met, absolutely original human being.
You just think who designed her? Yeah, she's a lot
of fun out She's such a one off, wonderful person.
(29:33):
Oh my heart.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah. How if people haven't listened to that episode yet,
do go and check it out. But you came together you,
yourself and Brian have moved in the same circles for
a few years now, and you came to collaborate together
musically on the track that appears on the album. But
you did kind of a reversion of it if you
like that. You included Nature as a contributor. And this
(29:55):
is part of the Sounds Right campaign that Brian is
talking about on the podcast a few weeks ago. Tell
me a little bit about working with Brian getting to
that actually, you know, make some music with him, Because
I know you've had plenty of conversation with him over
the years. It becomes kind of clear listening to you
and all the conversation hopefully that we've had here of
why you wanted to bring Nature into the process and
give her the credit that she deserves and be part
(30:17):
of that whole initiative. But just yeah, what do you
make of Brian's comments about working with you and getting
to know you and also the experience of working with him.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Oh, it absolutely moves my heart. I love Brian. He
he and I since we met, we just felt like
we had the need to talk about the same things.
And he has so much I feel like he can
(30:48):
teach me and the world. He speaks in a way
that feels like really food for the soul, and I
completely adore him. And he's a genius. He's he's made
a whole genre and I'm very honored to call him
a friend. Now. We laugh a lot, and sometimes I
(31:11):
feel like we act like a really old married couple.
Like I'm like Brian this is and he's like trying
to sign it and I'm like, no, it's not there,
come out again, this is I think it's And he's like, oh,
so I'm gonna like we're a bit like.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Scom of you and Brian. That's the next big scon.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
It seems just a bit like him because we're both
very big friends. But and also we have so much
respect for each other, but we're also so I don't know,
we're very funny. I really love him and to work
with him has been a dream. And to work with Frederick,
who plays the mandolin, it's been a dream. Yeah, And
(31:51):
just his old Brian's whole initiative to not only talk
dream care right for and about true blash. To do
something real that you can touch is important. You can't
only be yapping about change. You need to make change
(32:13):
as well. And I like the balance between the dreaming
and the realism of how you approach the things you
care about. That was a very good way to go
ask about that song because there was about exactly what
I was talking about earlier.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Beautiful good and we I mean musically the album is
so diverse, Like we hear Aurora going to the club
because we've got like techno in there, We've got like
we've got some like disco that I just imagine kind
of one of those like light up flaws, you know,
like that you'd get to like stepping into like Saturday
Night Fever or something. And we have like the sounds
(32:53):
that like some like particularly early fans might associate with
with you, like the kind of folk and the sort
of and things like that. And this this feels like
you're really really kind of just going out there and
just like painting with all the colors that you have
in terms of the music. Does that feel fair?
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Yeah? I always do that. I like when the album
feels like a whole person that kind of demands you
to listen a bit, kind of grabs your attention, and
it's very like in the way it's very there and
a lot because people are very diverse. They deserve diverse
(33:29):
music and diver and a a diverse and diverse album. Oh.
I don't know how to say that, but they deserve it.
And I want to make people or music for people
who I oh, fuck me, I want to make the
kind of music I feel like people deserve. You treat
like Leonar Cohen said, you treat your audience like kings,
(33:54):
they will treat you the same back. It's important. But
even though I know I've said I have eight things
to say, and now I'm on my fourth, you know.
And some chapters might take two albums to speak about,
like Chapter two, Step one and two. Now I'm on
(34:14):
chapter four. I don't know how long it will take
me to finish what I have to say, because this
topic burns in my belly just from the same place
where my laugh trick comes from, and my voice is
from the same place. But still, even though I know
what I'm about to say, it's all very pre foretold,
(34:36):
you know, but it still feels very playfully and in
the moment. So the album is all over the place
because I.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Am Midnight Chats is a joint production between Loud and
Quiet and Atomized Studios for iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
It's hosted by Stuart Stubbs and Greg Cochrane, mixed and
mastered by Lines, and edited by Stuart Stubbs.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Find us on Instagram and TikTok to watch clips from
our recordings at much much more. We Are Midnight Chats pod.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
For more information, visit loudan Quiet dot com.
But what do we value now? It's total shit to
be famous on an app famous shit. Contributing to the
world is beautiful and we can all do that.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Another day, Done in the bin. Welcome to Midnight Chats
with myself, Stuart Stubbs. Greg Cochran is also here. You're
going to hear him speaking one second, But first I'm
going to tell you that this is the late night
Interview podcast where Greg and I interview musicians that we like.
Last week we had something different, we had our Glassonbury review.
So we're back with a guest and Greg, you've spoke
(00:39):
to Aurora.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I did in the World's Hottest Room? What really? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Please?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Was this during hot It was this during heat wavetime?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
No, it was just like at the top of a
tower block in a small room that was ninety Glass
and Ura and I were just in there, just sweating together.
But not that that didn't make this, you know, pleasurable.
The found it was like a sauna.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm glad it wasn't me because I have found increasingly
when I do my interviews for this podcast that at
the beginning of them, I profusely sweat. And it's a
new thing. It's a problem because.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I thought we were presenting that as like, hey, positive,
a new thing.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
No, it's a problem for two reasons. One is if
they're face to face, the artist can see how much
sweat is pouring from my head. But also because we're
having to film these now for like little clips that
we put on our social channel at on our Instagram
account Midnight Chat Pod. If you do want to see
me sweating, you can just go and have a look
at that. I'm glad I wasn't in the this oven
(01:45):
like room because it probably wouldn't be broadcastable.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, that sounds like some kind of ASMR type thing,
like go and check out those videos of Stu sweating
if that's you, If that's your kind of bag. Aurora
was one of my favorite performers at Glastonbury. That happened
last week, but I got to speak to before that.
I love Aurora. I know that some people might be
surprised to hear that, but yeah, I think like the
if you do. If you don't know her that well,
(02:09):
the Norwegian songwriter is you know, she's been making music
for kind of a decade or more, even though she's
still really really young, and but she put out her
most recent album, What Happened to the Heart in June,
and it's had amazing reviews, and it was just really
great conversation with Aurora. She is very, very thoughtful, very
(02:30):
kind of like surreal character as well, like kind of
has this like sort of impish, like naughty sense of humor,
but also really really thinks deeply about the world. So
this conversation is is fairly deep. I kind of make
no apologies for that. Like on midnight chats, sometimes the
conversations that we share with you are a bit silly,
(02:52):
because you know, at the midnight hour sometimes you know,
you have all types of conversations like I thinking of
Yard Act and rose Matta Faya a few weeks ago
was thoroughly entertaining the kind of thing of you know,
rolling back home after being in the in the pub.
Aurora was like that almost like the opposite end of that.
I've just been like quite having that sort of like
quite reflective moment to think about the state of the
world right now. That's that's the sort of main thing
(03:15):
that sits at the middle of this album, you know,
What Happened to the Heart, She's asking that question of
being like the world's not in a great place right now?
What happened to like our heart, our empathy, our humanity?
Like how have we got here? So the substance of
the album is pretty heavy, and so therefore, you know,
just naturally the conversation is as well. But I thoroughly
(03:35):
urge people to go and check it out. It is
musically incredibly diverse. There are some bangers on there, there
are some like folk tunes on there. There is all
sorts going on. I do think she's an incredibly magnetic, natural,
just curious kind of performer that's like not fake in
any way, and so I just think she's the more
pop stars like Aurora. She's such a great conversation as well.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I've got nothing to add to that. That was a
bit too good. I'm just gonna say right now, here
is episode one hundred and thirty nine. Nothing more from me.
You should probably doing this podcast on your own, Greg.
Here is Aurora or midnight Chats.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Sometimes when I wake up really early, my mind gets
really sad because it wants to be in bed, I think,
so something in me goes, Oh, I feel kind of depressed,
but then it is just that I'm tired, and then yeah,
so I woke up, felt like I didn't know who
I was, where I was, and my window was open,
(04:47):
and I have these seagulls who are just having a
party every day outside my window, and they were having
a go at each other. It was lovely to listen to.
And I and out of bed. I accidentally it was
too late, so I just put on this. I'm literally
(05:08):
wearing a wedding dress to the people who are who
cannot see, but here, I'm wearing a wedding dress. And yeah,
then I just jumped into a cab. Had a beautiful
time on the plane. The clouds looked so gorgeous. I
almost cried, or I did cry. Let's be honest, it's
(05:28):
an honesty time here. But I did cry on the
plane because the clouds just looked like I just understood
why we would have met, why we would imagine people
who die going to heaven there, because it just looked
like the most perfect place. It made it all made sense.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
It's no wonder that we have these sort of like
deeply emotional moments sometimes on aeroplanes. It seems that, like
I think it's a mixture of the sort of wonder
of being like I'm thirty five thousand feet in the
sky looking over the world, and also the lack of
oxygen or the sort of recycled oxygen where you're just
like you just suddenly feel like super emotional.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, it's super hard, Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
There's so much depth to get into in terms of
talking about this new album that you've made. I wondered,
like how it's been talking about the record so far,
because it is an album that I don't know. It
feels like it's sort of an invitation to get in
some really deep topics and some deep reflections on where
you're at, but also kind of where the world's at
at the moment.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
It's not difficult per se, but it's it's a per
se but anyways isn't It's not difficult, but it's it's
kind of it's exhausting be in the same way as
running is, so you feel kind of wonderful laughter, but
it feels like a workout for the mind and the heart.
(06:51):
Just these are very like, very big, vast things that
I'm trying to explain, even more specifically than with my music,
which first is my best try and explaining what's going
on in my head. Is the album itself and then
comes my second try in explaining that again, I learned
(07:16):
a lot about myself and what I really mean and
how I should speak to people about important things, because
the words you choose are very important. Words are like weapons,
and there's small changes can make a very big difference.
The album's called What Happened to the Heart?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Indeed it is. I remember when you first started releasing
music off this album, or that you kind of like
started speaking to your audience about the fact there was
going to be new music to come. You're very open
about the fact you're like releasing music into this moment
where there's sort of like a lot of deep, deep
pain in the world, division, polarization, there's so much to
be upset about, really that you kind of like you
(08:00):
felt torn. You were in two minds as to whether
this was the right moment to sort of like share
music in the first instance.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Well, the world has been going through a crisis for many, many,
many years all over the world. But it seems too
human kind that whenever the pain around us is far
away in a very outer outer circle, we don't really
care about it. We are really brought up, especially in
(08:29):
the Western world, to really or basically everywhere to only
care about our inner circle, our blood, our neighbor, and
that's it, not even our neighbor, actually just our blood.
And then with you know, with the world's involvement and
(08:49):
with the Internet, you would think that that circle would
expand much more of how far we can stretch our empathy,
but our empathy doesn't stretch far at all. It seems
like because we're letting the planet die, we're letting children die,
(09:12):
we are making fun of the people who are trying
to call out that are how we are, Like what
we're doing in the world now is wrong and so disconnected.
So it's a very like even though the world has
been going through so much pain for so many years,
(09:33):
now it's even more vibrant on our phones with Palestine
and Gaza, which is just another example of a whole
people in pain far from our reach. But still the
importance of raising our voices on others' behalf is more
(09:56):
important than ever. It's like we're give even the chance
to really see how people are being treated, and so
many people are quiet, which completely blows my mind. And
(10:16):
then when the world is going through when it feels
like the world is burning, which in some parts it
literally is it's hard to think about or I become
very existential. It's hard to think about small things like
clothes and interviews or promoting or out like it just
(10:39):
seems like shit to me.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
There's so much bigger things out there that need our
attention and our energy. Yeah, that I totally understand that
some of those things can sort of feel maybe inconsequential
in comparison, but they I think they're still important. I
absolutely love the album. I feel like it's really radical,
like a really radical album that I don't know whether
people can like or like a radical voice, like in
(11:03):
terms of your artistry. And also you're you're kind of
like you know, using a voice in interviews or whatever.
But for me, like, the album's really radical because it's
kind of I think you're sharing thoughts on something that's
so central, like that that central question of like what
happened to the heart? Like it's really a kind of
like a question about sort of evolution of humanity, right, so,
(11:27):
like how we've got to this point? How have we
got to the point where yeah, there's a there's a
genocide happening, you know, a few thousand miles away from us,
But yeah, we'd feel disconnected from that, or that doesn't
feel like our reality, or we feel powerless. Presumably a
lot of the feelings and the thoughts have gone into
this album have been kind of swirling around in your
head for probably a number of years. But then from
what I understand, it was a couple of years ago
(11:49):
where you kind of you read a text that was
co written by a collection of indigenous activists and it
really spoke to you, and it obviously kind of like
was that a moment where almost like pieces of a
jigsaw kind of came together and you thought, No, what
I really am asking the question is what happens to
the heart of humanity? What happens to empathy and compassion?
(12:11):
To sort of get to the root of like, how
do we find ourselves here?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Now? Well, I'm always these important spiritual parts of my being,
empathic parts of my being who are very aware of
interconnectedness and coexistence, and you know, I'm here with people.
I need to be here with people, and it's not
about me, it's about us, and blah blah blah. That
(12:37):
part wakes up and goes to sleep all your life
because it's not possible to be on it all the time,
and sometimes because of the pleasures of the world or
the agony of the world, can easily make you forget
about that spiritual part of yourself for a little bit,
and then it reawakens them. That's how it is. But
(12:59):
in the COVID times it really woke up. It shook
my core the oh my god, look how vulnerable we
are and how we are reacting to having a common enemy,
someone who is against all of us a disease. And
I was like, oh my god, look it feels like
(13:20):
the world is more in touch with things. But then
it just went back to normal. And it wasn't a
day that happened, but I just kind of slowly noticed
the world just going back to normal, and it actually
really broke my heart on behalf of my nephew children
(13:47):
who are young still one years old. It really made
me sad to see that not even something like that
can shake enough to actually permanently change the things we
need so desperately to change. I didn't know what to
(14:10):
do with that, and that highly affected the way I wrote,
the way I lived, the way I looked at people.
And then I waited until my mind was filled with
enough light, optimism and hope and love. So it's because
I don't like to write in destructive states of mind,
(14:32):
because then I feel like the music becomes very dark,
which I like, but dark and the wrong way. So
I waited until I felt ready, and then one day
I was, you know, as I was as I found
the title of the album, what Happened to the Heart,
(14:53):
just as I was writing the no I was writing,
just as I was reading the letter we are the
Earth pledging for the world to act more with a
heart and less with a mind. And I should completely
agree whoever let us here fucked us all up because
(15:13):
this world isn't doing good for over half of us,
So whoever let us here didn't really do a good job.
And if the abilities we value in our leaders are strong, opinioned,
strong minded, determined, a bit cold, not too emotion null, loud,
(15:42):
while we are completely lacking in this world a touch
that is emotional, empathic, caring, motherly, feminine, which makes sense
because women haven't been able to lead the world the
last ten thousand years except for a few queens and Cleopatra.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
I remember having a great conversation with the artist Andy
who performs us and only in the Johnson's at the
moment and then only was saying that to fix what's happening,
particularly with global heating and climate change, is we need
radical new leadership. But we also need feminine energy to
come to the forefront, and we need we need, we
need an overhaul of the systems that we know have
(16:30):
not been working now for centuries. We need a different
type of leadership. And what we need is so many
more women in this positions of leadership, not in just
in climate but in politics, in our economics, in our businesses,
in our communities, Like we need that at the forefront.
That is the change that we need, and we also
need to have a recognition that the way that we've
done it has not worked, So why not let's embrace
(16:53):
that change. And that was an one's feeling on that,
and it was really resonant, and you kind of like
it's very hard to like, I would love to see
that happen.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I know, it's very obvious that what we crave is
balance in all things, you know, and now it's so
unbalanced because women Luckily, a lot of women who have
invented things, they got the chance to invent things, they
just didn't get to have the credit for it, but
(17:27):
at least they got to invent them, which have also
helped driven driving the world forward. But it's funny when
we crave balance and justice. The people who experienced peace
were the people on the top. Well the same piece
for the people at the bottom were oppression. And when
(17:51):
the oppressed starts rioting, you treat them as terrorists, you know,
or when the oppressed starts rioting, we treated as something
out of the blue and something unjustified, something hostile, when
(18:12):
all they're asking for is peace for them as well
for us as well. It's the same that's happening in
Palisada and Israel. We are blaming a group of people
who have been oppressed for being a terrorist, when fifteen
years ago, when you know it, or maybe not, it's
(18:37):
a long thing to go into, so maybe not that.
But we are blaming, yeah, groups who are trying to
fight for peace for all and not understanding why they
turned out like they did. Because every oppressed group has
to riot somehow, and if something or someone doesn't listen
(19:00):
to them, ever, it will eventually turn into war. It
will turn bad in human history. So the sooner we
listen to the oppressed, whoever that is, and we realize
that even though I experience this time as peaceful, it's
not peace for everyone. Piece is a useless word to many.
(19:25):
We need liberation and balance is much more. And I
feel like many people are reacting to women asking for peace,
no for balance, with being feeling very threatened, which is
also enhancing the division and making everything even more unstable.
(19:48):
Men more unstable, the leader's men vote are very unstable men.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
When you sort of focus on that fundamental question of
like of like what happened to the heart in humanity?
You went away and you kind of like studied and
you read what did you discover? And did we have it?
Did we lose it?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
I think you see proof that we had it, whatever
it is, and that we've always had it because we
have these abilities to hold each other, look at each other.
We make each other laugh and that makes us happy.
(20:34):
We make art, we make food. It's just amazing the
things we do as a species. I find an incredibly
beautiful food. Art, music has always been there. Family, community, villages,
driving the world forward, driving our family forward, expanding all
(20:58):
of these things that kind of we have valued throughout history.
But what do we value now? It's total shit to
be famous on an app It blows my mind. Famous
(21:18):
shit contributing to the world is beautiful and we can
all do that.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
It sounds like one of the big questions that almost
splintered off your exploration of the album title was this
idea of like when did human contentment change? You know,
a good life wasn't a life full of things? Like
a good life was a life full of heart and love,
And yet you're right, like that's sort of gone away
now and we all feel a lot of us feel
(21:49):
lonely that we don't feel like society serving us. We
don't feel like, you know, our communities are serving us.
We don't feel like, you know, we're being paid fairly,
and like just this sense of like kind of human
brokenness seems to be sort of omnipresent, and I think
it does come back a lot to that question that
you raise their around like contentment, about what are the
things you truly need in your life to be like,
(22:10):
I've got everything I need? Is this is the best
of what I ever need. Is because I've got my
dog and my cat and my garden, and I'm my
community and I'm happy.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
But like kids now, nineteen year olds I feel like
they in a new way, are just really unsure if
they'll ever for that with how things are going in
the world, and it's just interesting to see how we're
holding just human contentment, good word out of humans reach.
(22:45):
I have a song called Starvation, which I've made a
video for where I'm picturing just this image. You'll notice
because we are making people dream about so much that
we forget to just that what makes us happy is
to do something that is useful. I don't know why
(23:08):
we make offices so boring. It's like prisons. It's just
like prisons. Look at these buildings. Looks we're sitting just
next to this iron square buildings. It looks like prisons
where people are just trapped inside making their whole life
(23:28):
just passed through their fingers. How do we get here?
But also, dear listener to whoever is listening, and if
you made it this far, thank you.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
And we're still here.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
We haven't evaporated or died, and neither will you. Together
we shall prevail. But really I know this just to
you specifically, who's listening. I know this sounds like a lot,
and it is a lot, but I think it's just
it's more things and big things about the world who
made me ask the question what happened to the heart?
(24:07):
But I wouldn't ask the question if I didn't believe
that it would serve a purpose, that there would be
people out there who would feel the same, and that
we could actually do something. So I don't ask it
because I'm pessimistic, A tad disappointed, maybe, but it's absolutely
(24:27):
because I am optimistic. I just know we got into
a deep hole there, and I don't want you to
fall into the hole along with everyone else. I want
you to do the exact opposite, and to get off
the phone as well, stretch your spine, eat something beautiful,
(24:48):
make something from scratch, and feel how good it feels
to eat something you've made. I don't know, I just
felt like I had to say something beautiful amongst all
the hell I was raising on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
If we need humanity to rediscover heart in our systems
and our decision making, what signs have you seen of
the heart like emerging and you kind of being when
you went on this journey of kind of like asking
that question, It sounds like you know, and you've kind
of called for a sort of we need like a
small revolution you know we need, we do need a
step change in our things. So what signs do you
(25:32):
see of encouragement that that might happen.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I think the people we surround ourselves with, the people
will look up to, and then making sure you become
a person you will look up to as well in
this life. Okay, there's a monster here. How I judge
(26:05):
people and what happened to the heart is how we
behave to everyone we don't hear? Do we punish them
for simply existing, for being smaller, for being weaker, for
speaking in a language we don't understand? Do we simply
take and punish the earth just because she begs for
(26:26):
help in a language we don't even hear most of us?
Do we do these things simply because it doesn't look
like our actions has any consequences? Consequence? I don't know
how to say that word sounds so weird in my mouth.
It tastes word. But you know this is simply because
(26:47):
we can and why That's how I judge people. It's
about and I feel like the few things left in
this earth that talks in the language that we us
up is food and music and art and nature and people.
(27:10):
I need to look at all these five things and
think if the only music I listen to has no
soul be guesse. There is so much music with no soul.
I've heard it, so have you. There's food without soul.
There are people that doesn't inspire your soul, and all
these things. I just want to make sure we surround
(27:34):
ourselves with also role models that just something to us.
Stop watching their Kardashians and watch yourself in the mirror,
bitch like it's I feel like it's important because we're
about to completely surround ourselves with this important language that
(27:58):
has nothing to say, and then we're just dead. And
I think we need to really rethink our influences, especially
the food we eat. Oh my god, make sure it's
it's connected to the earth, and I really think it's
going to make us feel better. We need to stop
(28:18):
being on our phones. Yeah, what the fuck? Where they who?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Like?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
And all of this is very connected to the the
album as well. This kind of these are all things
that I've been thinking about a lot while writing.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
You spoke there about soul, Like one of the tracks
on the album is a soul with no King.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, this is exactly about that.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah, I wanted to ask about So we had Brian
Eno on the podcast a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Oh beautiful.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Yeah, and Brian and I spoke about you. Do you
al Mays play the clip of Brian talking about you.
Would you like to hear this? Yes? This is good,
so listeners. This is because I know you really got
on well and you had a great time together.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
We have a beautiful connection. He feels like it's so mad.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Yeah, this is Brian, you know, talking about Aurora and.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
One is with the Norwegian singer Aurora, who's one of
the most extraordinary people I've ever met, absolutely original human being.
You just think who designed her? Yeah, she's a lot
of fun out She's such a one off, wonderful person.
(29:33):
Oh my heart.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah. How if people haven't listened to that episode yet,
do go and check it out. But you came together you,
yourself and Brian have moved in the same circles for
a few years now, and you came to collaborate together
musically on the track that appears on the album. But
you did kind of a reversion of it if you
like that. You included Nature as a contributor. And this
(29:55):
is part of the Sounds Right campaign that Brian is
talking about on the podcast a few weeks ago. Tell
me a little bit about working with Brian getting to
that actually, you know, make some music with him, Because
I know you've had plenty of conversation with him over
the years. It becomes kind of clear listening to you
and all the conversation hopefully that we've had here of
why you wanted to bring Nature into the process and
give her the credit that she deserves and be part
(30:17):
of that whole initiative. But just yeah, what do you
make of Brian's comments about working with you and getting
to know you and also the experience of working with him.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Oh, it absolutely moves my heart. I love Brian. He
he and I since we met, we just felt like
we had the need to talk about the same things.
And he has so much I feel like he can
(30:48):
teach me and the world. He speaks in a way
that feels like really food for the soul, and I
completely adore him. And he's a genius. He's he's made
a whole genre and I'm very honored to call him
a friend. Now. We laugh a lot, and sometimes I
(31:11):
feel like we act like a really old married couple.
Like I'm like Brian this is and he's like trying
to sign it and I'm like, no, it's not there,
come out again, this is I think it's And he's like, oh,
so I'm gonna like we're a bit like.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Scom of you and Brian. That's the next big scon.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
It seems just a bit like him because we're both
very big friends. But and also we have so much
respect for each other, but we're also so I don't know,
we're very funny. I really love him and to work
with him has been a dream. And to work with Frederick,
who plays the mandolin, it's been a dream. Yeah, And
(31:51):
just his old Brian's whole initiative to not only talk
dream care right for and about true blash. To do
something real that you can touch is important. You can't
only be yapping about change. You need to make change
(32:13):
as well. And I like the balance between the dreaming
and the realism of how you approach the things you
care about. That was a very good way to go
ask about that song because there was about exactly what
I was talking about earlier.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Beautiful good and we I mean musically the album is
so diverse, Like we hear Aurora going to the club
because we've got like techno in there, We've got like
we've got some like disco that I just imagine kind
of one of those like light up flaws, you know,
like that you'd get to like stepping into like Saturday
Night Fever or something. And we have like the sounds
(32:53):
that like some like particularly early fans might associate with
with you, like the kind of folk and the sort
of and things like that. And this this feels like
you're really really kind of just going out there and
just like painting with all the colors that you have
in terms of the music. Does that feel fair?
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Yeah? I always do that. I like when the album
feels like a whole person that kind of demands you
to listen a bit, kind of grabs your attention, and
it's very like in the way it's very there and
a lot because people are very diverse. They deserve diverse
(33:29):
music and diver and a a diverse and diverse album. Oh.
I don't know how to say that, but they deserve it.
And I want to make people or music for people
who I oh, fuck me, I want to make the
kind of music I feel like people deserve. You treat
like Leonar Cohen said, you treat your audience like kings,
(33:54):
they will treat you the same back. It's important. But
even though I know I've said I have eight things
to say, and now I'm on my fourth, you know.
And some chapters might take two albums to speak about,
like Chapter two, Step one and two. Now I'm on
(34:14):
chapter four. I don't know how long it will take
me to finish what I have to say, because this
topic burns in my belly just from the same place
where my laugh trick comes from, and my voice is
from the same place. But still, even though I know
what I'm about to say, it's all very pre foretold,
(34:36):
you know, but it still feels very playfully and in
the moment. So the album is all over the place
because I.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Am Midnight Chats is a joint production between Loud and
Quiet and Atomized Studios for iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
It's hosted by Stuart Stubbs and Greg Cochrane, mixed and
mastered by Lines, and edited by Stuart Stubbs.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Find us on Instagram and TikTok to watch clips from
our recordings at much much more. We Are Midnight Chats pod.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
For more information, visit loudan Quiet dot com.
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