June 9, 2021 • 44 mins
NYPD Det. Richard Stark gives his first interview.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
From my Heart Radio. This is missing on nine eleven,
the story of one woman who vanished on the eve
of history and my quest to find her. I'm your host,
John Wallzac. Well, you know, before I get into this
(00:45):
particular case, UM, tell me about your nine eleven experience.
What what happened? Where were you? Um? I was working
in the Tools Squad, Temple Squad, Tool Precinct, Upper West Side.
I was on my way. I was on the jaw.
I'm going to interview somebody. UM. I was going over
the fifty Night Street Bridge and I sort of smoke
(01:06):
coming from the you know, downtown, and then I actually
going over the bridge, you can see more and more.
I could see the twin towers. You see smoke coming out,
and the first thing in my mind was like a
Cessna or something like. But it was a perfectly clear day.
So I'm like, how the Assessna hit twin towers? This
is retired NYPD Detective Richard Stark. And then as I'm
looking at it, the second plane hit and I sort
(01:27):
of I didn't see the plane hit, but I sort
of blowout on the other side of the building. It's like,
this is this is the termtives with a rookie detective
and the bombing of the coal just happened. So um,
I said to him, I go speaking fin Laden, he's
behind this night and like everybody, yeah, short bridge, but
now that's the extra guy was with. That's exactly what
(01:48):
I said about nine. I arride the canal Street and
Broadway and uh that why being there waiting to be
assigned a past because they don't know what the was
going on. It was like chaotic at that time. So
at the time we're waiting waiting for assignment the buildings,
when the buildings came down, and then we just see
people are running up roadway, like thousands of people and
(02:10):
they're all covered with dust. And I was grabbing him.
I had a call, so I was grabbing him that
want two at a time to take him to St.
Vincent's Emergency when was the closest hospital. And I went
back on the fourth I don't know how many times,
six maybe five or six times, and then just rendering
first day to people that really didn't have to go
to hospital. He said, you know, scorting water in their face,
getting dust out. Um. And then later on in the
(02:33):
in the day, we were signed post in the perimeter
of nine eleven in uniform, and then I finished that
about one in the morning on on September twelve, I
went home, which I lived, you know, close by from
the zero. Um. I got about three hours sleep, Uh,
just into street clothes to the shallows you know, construction
(02:54):
booths and stuff. I went down to Detective and Dowmint Association,
which is the you know, the assailiar time. So we
reported there and there's all volunteer work. At this point,
anybody can say it was volunteer. It was an assignment.
So the issue was helmets, mask, Did they have a mask?
We had the painter's mask to take the mask, gloves,
and then we all went down to the ground zero
(03:15):
had to be about six in the morning, and we
were we you know, coordinated with other you know, steel
workers and firemen and other cops that were the police officers,
and we were on top of literally on top of
the pile the fell and you had to kind of
circling your way out there. And then we had like
a we had um with the word for you know,
(03:36):
like a line of people um just handing like pieces
of you know, we're trying to like about a brigade. Yeah,
I can't buck a brigade, but you could see somebody
under the rubble or alive or not. And then we
were just like handling beams and pieces of steel and
there's one from a guy to the other. We're just
getting out of the way to clear that area. And
then if you came up with our body, then we
would have a gurney and put the body on top
(03:58):
of them and then we would passed the body because
those guys on each side, then the body will be
get passed out or body part um. That was there
for about UM six thirty to about five in the afternoon. UM.
At this point I was a wolf and work because
I was what's so busy to when I was supposed
to be a work at four o'clock and the other precinct,
(04:20):
So I, you know, got in touch with them and
told him what I was doing, and and then I
had to go from there and go home change and
they go to work. Two days at the night eleven,
I was transferred from the two old precinct to the
first Precinct, Lower Manhattan. UH. They needed help down next
they was shorthanded a little busy UM and I handled
cases in the first precinct and what we're here for
(04:43):
now is one of the cases was the missing personne House.
Philip Stark has never spoken publicly about this case until now.
We interviewed him in person during COVID, which is why
at points he sounds muffled through his mask. For of
your investigative effort, you checked hospitals, morgues, homeless shelters. Um,
(05:05):
I n s credit card records. Is that all correct? Um?
I assume that's relatively standard. Um. Did you recognize this
as a high profile case early on? Or did did
you give it any extra effort or attention? No, I
could say attention I give any case. Um. But but
(05:26):
I realized it was like a high profile until I
started seeing um, you know, violence putn't flies all over
the place. Now that was Manhattan. I found. I was
seeing him like in my neighborhood. I was like, you know,
I'm seeing pictures. So far he made up his own flies.
On September four, two thousand one, at eleven pm, Ron
filed a written complaint with the NYPD, triggering an official
investigation into Snake House disappearance. Initially it went to the
(05:49):
Missing Persons Squad, then it was flagged as a Category
G case and went to Detective Stark. Can you tell
me a little bit more about category G. What does
that include? Category GEZ just they just call a category G.
But it's the mission person doesn't fall on the missing
person protocol. If you don't come home tonight and you
go for know your wife, please say he's missing, to
(06:10):
go where it's not really missing, because just because he
could be out, he could have went on just if
you guys are not getting along. He went on a
week long trip. But he has to fall under the
category over a certain age which is seventy two, under
a certain age which is sixteen on the sixteen, and
he have to some kind of mental something going on
physically or mentally that makes you that you can't take
(06:32):
care of yourself. Then you become a missing person. But
if you're healthy and you know you're of age, especially
an active doctor, and you just you know, disappeared, um,
it's not consider a missing person over a favorite of time.
Category G is a technical designation. It means that a
person is quote absent under circumstances indicating unaccountable or involuntary disappearance.
(06:57):
It requires an immediate investigation. There's two things you want
to police up on the kind of go with you
missing and a coupy. You know what the copy is,
that's an unsolved homicide with they can't determine if it
was a homicide or not, but they can't say it's
not a homicide. So it gets the worst. I mean,
it's just pretty much unsolvable most of the time. Not
well category G. It's sometimes it comes out. Most of
(07:18):
time it comes out in the bed because the person
turns out to see someone and so it gets it
gets kicked back to you guys, you get the case. Um,
after scanning the initial information, what were your first thoughts
that did it just stick out? Is this is a
bizarre case or was it more of a everything is
chaos right now and this is just everything is chaos
and there's uh, there's a lot of thousands of people
(07:42):
doing miss impression reports because they can't just like ron Um,
you know, he couldn't grasp that she was in the
building and she's dead. He couldn't grasp he believes she
was alive and something else happened. He just you know,
with a denial pretty much. So tell me just about
your togative steps that you would do in general, but
specifically with this case. Um, the steps that you took
(08:05):
and kind of walked me through that process. Well, Cole
Rono Ron came into the precinct and we sat down
for an hour or so and tald Um just learn
more about him and about Snayha and he you know,
he told me, you know, like I said, I don't
want to say too much stuff that he she was
having issues substance abuse, mental illness, marital trouble, legal trouble.
(08:30):
She was in court that monday. I don't know you
know about that right m on the on the tent.
So Um we were just talking about that and he
believed that she was kidnapped or something else happened. And
I'm like, okay, I was like we'll look into it,
of course, but I mean just logically, you know, you
live next to the Trade Center and you're telling me that,
you know, she said to her mother the night before
(08:52):
she was going shopping in the in the in the mall,
um the concourse mall, and in the trade enter. This
is extremely importon because although snay Hall lived near the
World Trade Center, according to ron quote, we never go there.
She had no business there. So in order to believe
that snay had died at the Trade Center, her family
had to understand why she was there in the first place.
(09:15):
They put forth at least four conflicting explanations. One snay
Hall was shopping at the mall underneath the World Trade Center. Two,
snay Hall was visiting Windows on the World, the famous
restaurant on top of the North Tower, in advance of
a friend's upcoming wedding reception there. Three the night before,
(09:37):
say attended a party at a hotel next to the
Trade Center, hosted by the city's quote South Asian community,
and presumably stayed the night even though she lived only
nine feet away. And four snay Hall was walking home
on eleven from somewhere else, passing by the towers just
as the attacks began. Obviously, snay Hawk could not have
(10:00):
been shopping at the mall, visiting Windows on the World,
leaving a hotel next to the towers, and walking home
from somewhere else all at the same time. But once
her family settled on the hero narrative that she ran
into the towers to help victims and died, they needed
a why to understand why she was there. In the
early days before the hero narrative. Snay House family genuinely
(10:23):
thought she was alive, and none of them, especially Ron,
wanted Detective Stark to prematurely declare snay Ha at nine
eleven victim. Detective Stark understood that impulse, the desire to
investigate everything, but to him, nine eleven always made the
most sense. So I'm just, you know, being a detect
kind of like leans that way. So I'm just leaning.
(10:46):
He goes see he understood that a little bit, but
he had a doubt in his mind this makeup. Can
I have a doubt my mind. I don't think she's
out of I don't think she died. I think something
else happened. So that's why we went through the hole.
UM and I just got information phone, you know, anybody
she got contact with. I wish he works. UM. I
responded to the apartment, looked at video footage. I identified her.
(11:07):
I don't not face identify. I don't know if um.
Did Ron tell you about this? So so yeah, so
they're attree am on nine eleven. There's an image of
someone that's the blurry image exiting her apartment building. Well,
it's not blurry that you had the slide and back
of her. But Ron did state that he recognized the dress, like, well,
(11:28):
that could be one of addresses, Like he was never
sure about anything. In the Court Rutgers, he said that
he did not think that that was her. Yeah, no, yeah,
well they was leaking towards not thinking. But again he
was he was really really in denial of this. So
you got to take that into consideration. Fair enough, but
I don't buy it. Ron was in a much better
(11:49):
position to determine whether or not thirty seconds of low
quality footage actually showed his wife. Were you able visually
to make an identification of that woman as or how much?
How certain were you? How much doubt did you not?
Not not a facial you no, no, not a positive idea?
What made you ninety percent sure? Just how mannerisms? Seeing
(12:11):
how watching her video for like hours and hours and
Century one, the way she walks, the way, her mannerisms
and she had the exact same mannerisms, say the night
before you know, Century This doesn't make any sense. The
Century twenty one footage includes only a few frames of
snay Ha, making it next to impossible to compare it
to thirty seconds of a different low quality video and
(12:34):
declare with certainty that the woman who exited to Rector
Place at eight three am on nine eleven was actually
snay ha. If it was snay Haa the woman on
video at three, why wouldn't she have her shopping bags
because she had stayed somewhere else the night of the tent.
Then she was coming out of apartment, she was going shot.
(12:55):
So so you so you think that that person in
the video was already in the building, It wasn't because
I've read that speculation that it was something that walked
in and then turned around and walked out. So you
did that video show somebody entering the building and exiting
or just exiting the building, exiting, attended a lobby for
a few maybe exiting with that that would indicate that
(13:22):
she was in the building. Though and Ron said later
on that Um and the family said that they were
not able to find any sign that she had been
in the apartment. That's a big question, walk. That was
always a big question. Walk. It's also a big deal.
Detective Stark just said that he thinks Nah was inside
her apartment on the morning of nine eleven, then exited
(13:43):
the building at three, only three minutes before American Airlines
flight eleven hit the North Tower fet away. If true,
if that means that either sna did come home late
nine or early nine eleven and Ron lied when he
said she did not come home, or she snuck into
her apartment after Ron left for work and left no trace,
(14:06):
or Detective Stark is wrong. The woman at forty three
is not snay Ha. Snay Hall was not in the apartment.
One thing that would help answer this question is being
able to see the digital photos Ron took when he
returned to the apartment on September twelve, two one, Because
according to Ron, snay Ha left behind her passport, I
(14:27):
D wallet, glasses and other critical belongings. What do the
photos show? Do they show the passport, I D wallet
and glasses? Do they show any signs snay how it
was in the apartment after I don't know. There's also
a crucial witness who could help clear this up. His
(14:47):
name is Jimmy Nelson. He's the doorman who worked the
night shift that Ron and snay Haus building from eleven
pm on nine ten until seven am on nine eleven.
If anyone saw snay return or ro On leave, it
would have been Jimmy. Unfortunately, he did not respond to
interview requests. Finally, the apartments security footage is also vital
(15:10):
to Rector has at least three entrances, front, back, and side.
I'm not sure if they were all covered by cameras
in two thousand one. The front definitely was the rest.
I don't know. Do the tapes show Snajab returning home
one or early nine eleven? Do they verify Ron's story?
(15:32):
I don't know. I don't have access to the footage.
I contacted the company that owns two Rector the related
companies to see if they saved nine ten and or
nine eleven security footage. They never responded. The NYPD probably
has the tapes, but it denied me access to most
case files. Finally, there was at least one big flaw
(15:55):
with the NYPDS investigation. According to court records. To tell
to Stark did not watch all of the security footage.
He testified that he did see Snay leave the building
around five pm on nine ten, and the mystery woman
who he thinks is Snay, exit at eight forty three
am on nine eleven, but he did not watch all
(16:17):
of the footage between five pm on nine ten and
eight forty three am on nine eleven, fifteen and a
half hours of footage. I don't think anyone has ever.
(16:54):
Let's return for a minute to the mystery call placed
at four oh five am on nine eleven from Ron
and snay house apartment landline to Ron's cell phone. Ron
said he was alone in the apartment at the time
and that half asleep, he probably used the landline to
dial his cell to see if snay Hall left him
a voicemail, but he has no memory of making the call,
(17:15):
so more or less he thinks he's sleep dialed his
cell from his landline. To me, it's just odd. I
get that nine eleven was traumatic, but this is such
a critical detail. Did he did he give you an
explanation about what that he couldn't. Do you have any
idea did you find any reasonable explanation of because he
(17:37):
said he didn't remember that a good feeling. I saw
her leave the next morning and she was going to
said to her mother who I was the night before?
She was going shopping the ground that it just all
went together. Do you think coinences Do you think she
was in the apartment? Done? Yes? See it? Then? Do
(18:01):
you ross story was that he was? He was He
got home around eleven fifteen, and that he left I
think six thirty in the morning on nine eleven, um,
and that he never Yeah, so do you think she
entered there's there's there's some discrepancy. She either entered after
he left or she was there and he's not telling
(18:21):
the truth. Do you have any indication of it could be? Yeah.
I mean he changed the story about three or four
times with me to the whole investigation, so it's possible
he's lying. Or when you say changed the story three
or four times, any specific details or what do you
mean by that? Um, just saying that she was taught
(18:42):
she wasn't plot of Night eleven, that she was kidnapped,
and then later on what was real? Later on he
said she was plating Night eleven, But um story or
what what she did? Like she was adopted in community
and you know the situation happened. Now, the situation he's
referring to is the incident in which Snay had claimed
a fellow doctor sexually assaulted her in a bar, then
(19:05):
allegedly recanted and harassed the doctor and his wife, UM
and affilly with the brother, the brother's girlfriend. And you know,
he just he said it didn't happen, and the brother
said it, you know, said it, didn't you know what
she thought? He was inconsistent with some things. The quote
(19:27):
story with the brother and the brother's girlfriend. Okay, well,
Detective Stark did not want to go into detail with
me out of respect for snay House family. But years
ago in court, Start said that snay has younger brother,
John told him that shortly before nine eleven, John walked
in on and his girlfriend having sex. John later denied
(19:50):
telling this to Start. In fact, he denied speaking to
Start at all. So figuring out her, say has final
movements and communications on um, how did you go about
doing that? Just interviewing people? Can you talk about did
you actually visit CenTra one and view the footage or
(20:11):
was it sent to you? No, I was. I went
to I can't remember how we I think it was.
I think it was credit card uh usage. That's how
we found figured out she was there once we did UM. No,
he was finding that I was there for like four
or five hours video because it's I wish I had
the video I have now in this building. But it's
the old time. You know, it wasn't um motion sense.
(20:34):
You know, you had to look at the whole thing.
So ron Ron said that he spent several weeks going
and looking at that video too, and then he found her.
Um did you view it after he did? Or beef?
Did you who found her first? On the UM? And
I assume he probably was looking for other signs of
her and probably if you was, what was what somebody else?
(20:55):
You know who? Anybody could be anybody, but she wasn't
you know, she was by the whole time on what
I viewed. So that that's that's a very interesting point
because the last person to see her live was a
shoe salesperson, Sonya Mora the next floor. I never looked
at that footage. I just sent and what And so
(21:17):
the last person to see her a live said that, well, frankly,
their discrepancies with this um I've seen and read in
different records that um that Snayhu was with someone, that
she wasn't with someone that the sales clerk thought she
might be with someone, you know, versus a story that
the sales clerk was definitively sure and that had she
(21:38):
had talked to them and they said they were going,
you know, somewhere else afterwards, it seems kind of murky
do you have did you ever determine whether or not
UM with any certainty? Snayho was with anyone? That? No, No,
she wasn't you know that? I said, only view the
center one video. I don't know, why do you? I don't.
I can't remember why. I don't if it wasn't available,
(22:01):
it was, it was part of sent it wasn't. Yeah,
it was just a different, different part. Yeah, but you
didn't viewing the video, you didn't see any photographic evidence,
videographic evidence that's the hose with anybody else, because that
would have been key, that would have been a key
part of it to find out who that person was. UM,
do you have any reason to doubt the story of
(22:23):
the person the last person to see her, who insinuated
or said that she was with somebody else? Maybe she
just met somebody, was talking to somebody and you know
that that I didn't see anybody what the um like,
you know, next to her or talking to her. Um,
But no, I don't know. Maybe he just missed him
(22:43):
to maybe he thought the person was with her. Uh so,
UM was it a male female? She said it was
a female. So you obtained UM call records? Did you
explain tell me tell me about that. Can you get
these records? These are calling people? Did you contact Rizon?
How do you investigate that at the time? Yeah, if
(23:05):
you have subpoena and um, you know sub minute to
the horizon. I believe it was a rising at the time,
and then you just get the records of the you know,
any phone calls. Like I said, it's twenty years ago,
but I think Ron even supplied some phone records. Yeah. Um,
and so you got I assumed the phone wreckers for
the apartment landline. Did you also get any cell phone
(23:29):
wreckers from either Snaha or Ron? Yes, I don't. I
know what I remember her phone was nothing, no activity
on her phone rule after nine eleven. This is another discrepancy.
Detective Stark says that snay Hot did have a cell phone.
Ron said she did not. To be fair, we're talking
(23:50):
twenty years ago. Memories fade and these are very specific questions.
Do you know this is a question I wasn't able
to tell from the records. Um, via the records, it
seemed that she did not have a cellphone, but that
he did have a cellphone. Does that seem accurate? I
don't even Yeah, myself just had a phone for two
(24:10):
years at that point. Something that I noticed, um in
the records is that there's no mention of a pager,
and since she was a doctor, she almost certainly would
have had a pager. Um, do you have any recollection
of either finding or obtaining a pager that she left behind,
or of obtaining records related to her pager? No? I
(24:33):
just I thought that was kind of odd because I've
talked to people that worked with her, and obviously she
was a doctor. Um, she certainly would have had a
pager at the time. She was worth in the St.
Vincent's Instan Island and she was on like modified duty.
I don't know what she did when she went to work,
but she wasn't doing any like you know, she was modified.
I don't know what that means in a medical field.
(24:54):
As part of his investigation, Detective Stark visited St. Vincent,
the hospital We're snay how worked for only ten weeks
before she disappeared. According to Stark, sna was having trouble
at her new job and was on quote modified duty.
Plus she was off work one and nine eleven, So
I don't know if she had a pager, either personal
(25:16):
or professional with her. On the day she vanished, and
I've seen no indication that the nyp D examined any
pager records. So you get this case. Obviously, this put
(25:52):
it into context again of the chaos of nine eleven
and the fact that there are six thousand people who
are alleged missing and the daily news is ten thousands
fear dead, and so I think it's important to put
it in context that it was chaotic and at the time,
beyond the three thousand people that died, Um, you know,
there were thousands of other people. You do blicates of
(26:13):
different people listening their love the ones that's missing. Um,
when you got this, did you immediately think nine of
it World Trade Center? That's the answer or well, it's
not the answer, but it's what I thought at first.
But it wasn't the answer. You know, what do you
mean by that? I mean, it's always a possibility to
what Ron saying. So that's why we got the case
(26:34):
and we looked into it. We just dismissed it as
it's just part of nine eleven. There was a lot
of like I said, I told you Anifolias. You know,
the average homicide has one box of files. This case
had two box to files. There was a lot more
work done, you know, um on this case than like
a homicide. Well, it became a tide profile. Then we
(26:55):
got you know, not that we we've done more work,
but it just the family was pricing, was involved, they
hired a private investigator. UM, so it became more well involved.
What would what would be in those two boxes? What
kind of when you say two boxes of records or files? Um,
(27:17):
mostly like the forms of DV five which at any
time we talked to somebody like right now and talk
to you. If I was detective interviewing you. After a
interview you writing everything down, I would go to the
typewriter of a crime and have computer and the type
out of DD five about the whole conversation. We just had,
so a lot of those and then phone records, any
records anything to deal with the case, video footage. I
(27:39):
tried to get the records, d N y p D
would not confirm whether or not they even exist. So
in terms of alternate explanations, UM, how seriously did you
consider suicide foul play either you know, kidnapping or murder
or the fact that she possibly just ran off. Um.
(28:00):
I learned I'll lean more towards possible because of the situation.
But she was in I know that she just had
a fight with Ron that night, the night before Starkness spoke.
He meant the morning before the morning of possible suicide
and possibly just ran off those two possibilities. You don't
believe foul play is even possible though, No, I've seen
(28:20):
no reason in it. I don't see I mean talking
about what like, uh, well, in the beginning, maybe we
just looked at Ron saying because you know, the day
to fight, and yeah, we have all options are opened
that he possibly did something to him. That was that
was on the table too in the beginning, In the beginning,
how do you how do you walk the line between
balancing the possibility that this is the family of a
(28:43):
possible nine eleven victim with also your responsibility is a
detective to look at people around her and close to
her and consider them, but you know, responsibly consider them
as potential suspects. How do you how did you walk
that line? Oh, just deal with him and like I'm
doing with you now, and just feel him out and
you could just learn from his character and you know
(29:05):
how to act and all the time, I mean me
and Ron meant about thirty times, so we were always meeting.
He's always coming over the precinct, and but he's got
to I just didn't see it and him doing it,
that's all, and doing anything banta huh. That's all he seemed.
I mean, he seemed to straw, and he seemed like
he really fought hard. But he felt more destrough and
(29:25):
hard because of the fight they had. And I think,
deep deep down, he he felt he was splot at
Night eleven, but he had he was just in denial
and he was just wants to keep all options open
because he was guilty about having a fight with them,
like the last time he saw her, they had a fight. Yeah,
what when you say fight, what do you what do
you mean? I've read that they fought outside of the court.
(29:48):
You're talking about something at the apartment or outside the court,
and you know, I guess that. Well, I don't know
what they I don't not sure what they did after
the court, if they went back to their appointment. I
can't remember. He's he said that. They said that. He
said they went back to the apartment, and he was
just saying that they were He just remembers I remember
him saying that he just remember shads, you know, they
were fighting the last time he saw. Um, what about
(30:14):
the other family members? I mean, obviously, Uh, the interview
with her younger brother John is something that is a
point of contention. Um, what can you tell me about
interviewing him? Like I said, I don't want to stay
nothing bad about but you know, people they think I
made you know, why would I make some story like
that up? But I'm talking to him and he's telling me,
(30:34):
you know, if we told for like an hour his
own Yeah, well there was an incident that this happened
that again, John allegedly walked in on snay having sex
with his girlfriend. And then I'm like, oh, okay, well
all right, you know, not that happened, that snow breaking.
That's that's how that happened. But that's what he and
he was concerned about. And also huh Stark asked me
(30:58):
to go off the record, which we did briefly. Later
in court, the family said and the younger brother, John
said that you made that up, that it's not true.
What did you think when you heard that? Because somebody,
somebody's telling the truth. Who's telling this? The first time
I heard that was read. It was in the new
tape of auticle. I tried calling nuth they wouldn't talk
(31:19):
to me. I'm saying, it's a lie. You know, you
gotta you know this is what he told me. And
they're saying that I made it up. I mean, that's
why would I take that up? Why? I mean, think
about it. You know, it's not affecting the case. It's
not gonna Why don't I just come out of that
and make something like that? He lying, yes, he's lying
that he didn't tell If he saying he didn't tell
(31:39):
me that, then he's lying. Yes. Well he won't even
further um because he was It was probably Ron probably
yelled at him and you know, and made him say
that he didn't say it just sounds bad the family,
to the whole family, to the situation. Well, it went't
even further um. You know, years later, and I think
(31:59):
it was part of the court proceeding, uh that John
Snay has brother denied even ever talking to you. Okay, Well,
I probably have a paperwork saying, you know, when I
I said anything I told somebody I do to d
D five and that's on record that I told me.
Why why do you think he would deny even talking
to you or change his story. I don't know. Maybe
(32:22):
the family got to him Ron saying, you know, you
can't say a bit stuff about saying how like this
and you know say you didn't say it. You know,
did you feel you were getting straight answers when you
interviewed the family? Uh? Yes, yes, Like I said, they're
all in denial, so I can't say anything you straight
answers because you know to the denial they were in
(32:42):
that she was not with us anymore. Um, but no, yeah,
yeah they will the filmily was you know, I talked
to the parents on the phone only and they was
just very distraught and I just told him what I
was doing. They asked me questions and then I didn't
really get into anything else stuff for that. The question
(33:06):
did you review snay has final emails? Um? Any records
of final calls? We talked about that instant messages? Did
you have a chance I can't remember. Is the one
to the mother saying she's going shopping the next early morning?
That the traits? Then did you actually did you hear
that from the mother? Did you actually get a copy
of her communication? I had a copy communication, So you
(33:27):
read it, read it over um other than the mother.
Do you remember if there was anybody who she spoke
to the afternoon of the tenth. Also remember is arguing
with Ron and talking to her mother. That was That
was here we have yet another discrepancy. No one disputes
that snay House spoke with her mom onto right before
(33:49):
she disappeared, But apparently she also spoke with one or
both of her brothers, and I don't know what she said.
According to an archived copy of a website created by Snayhouse,
all their brother Ashwyn snay Hawk communicated with Ashwyn via
instant messenger at two thirty pm on September, But according
to a different source, a Newsday article written by Hugo Kogia,
(34:12):
snay Ha sent emails to her mother and younger brother
John at two thirty and three pm. Hugo interviewed John
for the story, which Newsday published only two weeks after
nine eleven, So presumably it was John himself who said
that Say emailed him right before she disappeared. One brother
says snay Haw communicated with him via instant messenger. One
(34:36):
said she emailed him. Neither mentions. The other brother neither
reveals with Snaha actually said, have you ever have you
been interviewed in the last ten or fifteen years at all?
About nine eleven were this case? Oh no, when's the
last time you're Have you ever been interviewed about this case? Um? No,
I turned it down by they wanted to interview my
(34:57):
lest year on a job and I was advised to talk,
you know, not not to do it. So this is
the first interview he's getting all this case. Um do
you still have any case records or case files or
anything that I don't somewhere? I don't know. So do
typically those two boxes that you collected? Would they be
thrown in a warehouse or art It would take a
(35:19):
while to find them. If I have to find out
who would be in charge of that, I don't even know.
Like I said, I've been out sixteen years now, so
everything is different now, please, department is totally different. Stark
left the NYPD in two thousand five. Hm. Is there
anything I'm missing? I've gone over my major points, But
(35:40):
I anything that you want to say anything that? No,
Just that I was into this case at the time
a lot, you know, I mean when I was off
duty because I was a neighbor. I've looked down any
square and I see you. Yeah. I actually went so
far as to follow a lady and stop her, and
I was nuts. She was in you know, actually come
out of hospital and scrubs actually just like you know,
(36:01):
look like her. But it wasn't how one size I
d card in the face was just the same size hair.
She was endian. But you know that's how I was
into this, not too many case. I'm into when I'm
more duty. When I was working. When when was that?
Was that? Sorally? After that had to be a couple
of weeks, you know when Ron put all the flies out,
had him at over the place. UM As an investigator,
(36:25):
when you're dealing with families that are suffering and trying
to figure out what happened to their loved one, to
missing loved one, how do you balance a sense of
compassion and doing what the family wants with drawing a
line and saying I've done all I can do? How
do you how do you find that line? And then
how do you convey that to the families? Well, it
(36:45):
gives compassion is much you can you know, typing a
personality what you like and then they know you have
to do your job, and I want you to do
your job, so you have to, you know, the compassionate,
be nice, but I always was. Um Ron got nasty
it to me, but I kept my I just you know,
I never got an asked to him because I know
what he was going through the same time, the same
(37:08):
time she's going on. They you mentioned the what people
the compassion One of the other Jaws detective was to
go to uh An Armory and it was an interview area.
I don't know if you know about that. Yeah, you know,
you don't know, like hundreds of people outside online. We
go there and I was interviewing families and these families
were like I don't understand. Like I was talking to
(37:29):
my son and all of a sudden, how to talk
to him? And you know, I need to need to
check the hospitals, and I know what fool is he on?
And it said something like the ninety four, which is
a bug. Would have fined it like and it works
for cancer, the sheralds. So I'm like, so I left
him talk and I'm like, sorry you were what could
have happened? And he just put his head down and
he's on the upper floors above the plane and if
(37:53):
you know, and they still you know, in denial, but
you know they kind of was setting in. But we
had an interview, and it's families because they were they
wanted to know what happened to them love one, especially
when they were talking to them, you know, at the
same time on the phone. And I just went to
what was what was it like just for you as
a New Yorker in the immediate days and weeks after?
(38:14):
I mean, I do I do you have clear memories
of it or is it just kind of a blur
because it was right now to talking about it brings
back memories, but it's got to blur in general. Um, yeah,
the whole day and just like I said, the day
after the twelve that went down, now, um, you know,
(38:35):
like I was on a pile voluntarily and then I'm
pretty shore was the third afternoon or the morning of
the thirteenth that the wind change and all of a sudden,
the smell of nine eleven was coming into the window
of my apartment and my wife was like, what the
happen is that? What was that smell? And uh, you know,
it just remind me of burn of flesh, That's what
(38:56):
it smells like, you know, like I said, like disintegrated,
Like this is that powder that was coming all over
the That was a lot of those human remains that
was disintegrated from the heat of that, you know, defian
from the jet fuel. Stark still suffers lingering health effects
from the time he spent volunteering at Ground zero when
he wasn't investigating this case. One of the things that
(39:18):
I thought was interesting is in court you said that
you believe this case is closed and the leads are exhausted,
but you did not use the words solved to you
specifically avoided using the words solved. Can you explain, well,
technically not solved until DNA pop came up from nine eleven,
so you can't say hundred, you know, until a DNA
(39:41):
pop shows from the remains you mentioned a few weeks
after nine eleven seeing someone who looked like her. There's
a uniquip. Do you do you still feel like you're
sometimes even though you believe she died in the towers
that you kind of keep an eye out to see
if come my brain Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I
(40:03):
always say if I see any kind of medical but
my my my brother was the doctor. He's name. He's
from going so. Um even when I see anybody in yeah,
I do think about it. If I see from in
the hospital, will I see a doctor or you know,
that's just you know it's Indian has the teat and
she pops in my mind. How's the family doing? You
(40:26):
keep in contact with him? I've talked loosely with them,
but they just don't monitor New York. So the father died, uh,
I believe a year or two ago. Um, So's he's gone.
The mom still lives upstate. At Ron lives in California.
I remember him. And then the brothers, Um one is
(40:48):
in the city, and then I I'm not sure the
other one I think is in Florida. So, but they're
they're all still around. I mean Ron's and I've the
mother mom Onto and Ron have just did polite least
hold me that they just don't want to talk to anyone. Um. John,
the younger brother, is on the fence about talking. So
it's it's kind of for me. It's kind of hard
(41:10):
because I want to be fair and you know, there's
there's what you have from an investigation in court records,
and I want to tell the story of who she
was as a person because she had thirty one years
on the planet. She was, you know, she's a human being,
beyond gated about five years she graduated, I think from
(41:30):
medical school. Ye, I think, I'm pretty sure in Chicago.
Um yeah, I mean she had only been married a
year and a half, not that long. Um, so you know.
I then you just see that the photos of that wedding. Yeah,
some wedding, right, Yeah, I see. I've seen some video
(41:51):
from it too. Hey, I appreciate it. Um. I don't
know what I've missed. Always pour over my nose fifty
thousand times, but um, you know, any any final words
and summary. I think she was a good person, A
little confused. I'm not sure how good of a docks
she watches Rere New so how good I don't know, um,
but I do feel, you know, my gut nent that
(42:14):
she was of nine eleven, that's what she pet. She
passed away, and I just feel bad for the family
and and Ron. I hope he's going okay in California. Well,
thank you so much. I appreciate it. Okay, welcome good
(42:35):
next time I'm missing on nine eleven. The fact show
that everybody would be entitled to Destiny that they died
at the trade Center for two people, and one of
the two was and Philip homework this week? One do
you work for the NYPD and have access to the
Snay Half Philip case files? Do you know if they
(42:56):
even still exist? Two? Do you know Jimmy Nelson, the
doorman who worked the eleven to seven shift at Rectord
Place A nine ten and nine eleven? Three? Did you
work at St. Vincent's medical center on Staten Island in
two thousand one? If so, you can reach us by
phone at one eight three three New Tips. That's one
(43:19):
eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven
again one eight three three six three nine eight four
seven seven, or you can reach us via email at
tips at iHeart media dot com. That's Tips, T I
P s at iHeart media dot com. Ben Bollen is
(43:41):
our executive producer. Paul Decan is our supervising producer, Chris
Brown is our assistant producer. Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer.
Sam T. Garden is our research assistant, and I'm your
host and executive producer John Walzack. Cover art by Pam Peacock.
Special thanks to Tamika Campbell at I Heart and to
Christoph Zaprey in New Orleans. Also thank you to Detective
(44:03):
Richard Stark and ASoP Rock. Original theme music by ASoP Rock.
Check out asops website at ASoP rock dot com. You
can find me on Twitter at at John wallzac j
O n W A L C C A K. If
you like this show, check out our first season, Missing
in Alaska, about the nineteen seventy two disappearance of two congressmen.
(44:26):
Missing on nine eleven is a co production of I
Heart Radio and Greenfork Media
From my Heart Radio. This is missing on nine eleven,
the story of one woman who vanished on the eve
of history and my quest to find her. I'm your host,
John Wallzac. Well, you know, before I get into this
(00:45):
particular case, UM, tell me about your nine eleven experience.
What what happened? Where were you? Um? I was working
in the Tools Squad, Temple Squad, Tool Precinct, Upper West Side.
I was on my way. I was on the jaw.
I'm going to interview somebody. UM. I was going over
the fifty Night Street Bridge and I sort of smoke
(01:06):
coming from the you know, downtown, and then I actually
going over the bridge, you can see more and more.
I could see the twin towers. You see smoke coming out,
and the first thing in my mind was like a
Cessna or something like. But it was a perfectly clear day.
So I'm like, how the Assessna hit twin towers? This
is retired NYPD Detective Richard Stark. And then as I'm
looking at it, the second plane hit and I sort
(01:27):
of I didn't see the plane hit, but I sort
of blowout on the other side of the building. It's like,
this is this is the termtives with a rookie detective
and the bombing of the coal just happened. So um,
I said to him, I go speaking fin Laden, he's
behind this night and like everybody, yeah, short bridge, but
now that's the extra guy was with. That's exactly what
(01:48):
I said about nine. I arride the canal Street and
Broadway and uh that why being there waiting to be
assigned a past because they don't know what the was
going on. It was like chaotic at that time. So
at the time we're waiting waiting for assignment the buildings,
when the buildings came down, and then we just see
people are running up roadway, like thousands of people and
(02:10):
they're all covered with dust. And I was grabbing him.
I had a call, so I was grabbing him that
want two at a time to take him to St.
Vincent's Emergency when was the closest hospital. And I went
back on the fourth I don't know how many times,
six maybe five or six times, and then just rendering
first day to people that really didn't have to go
to hospital. He said, you know, scorting water in their face,
getting dust out. Um. And then later on in the
(02:33):
in the day, we were signed post in the perimeter
of nine eleven in uniform, and then I finished that
about one in the morning on on September twelve, I
went home, which I lived, you know, close by from
the zero. Um. I got about three hours sleep, Uh,
just into street clothes to the shallows you know, construction
(02:54):
booths and stuff. I went down to Detective and Dowmint Association,
which is the you know, the assailiar time. So we
reported there and there's all volunteer work. At this point,
anybody can say it was volunteer. It was an assignment.
So the issue was helmets, mask, Did they have a mask?
We had the painter's mask to take the mask, gloves,
and then we all went down to the ground zero
(03:15):
had to be about six in the morning, and we
were we you know, coordinated with other you know, steel
workers and firemen and other cops that were the police officers,
and we were on top of literally on top of
the pile the fell and you had to kind of
circling your way out there. And then we had like
a we had um with the word for you know,
(03:36):
like a line of people um just handing like pieces
of you know, we're trying to like about a brigade. Yeah,
I can't buck a brigade, but you could see somebody
under the rubble or alive or not. And then we
were just like handling beams and pieces of steel and
there's one from a guy to the other. We're just
getting out of the way to clear that area. And
then if you came up with our body, then we
would have a gurney and put the body on top
(03:58):
of them and then we would passed the body because
those guys on each side, then the body will be
get passed out or body part um. That was there
for about UM six thirty to about five in the afternoon. UM.
At this point I was a wolf and work because
I was what's so busy to when I was supposed
to be a work at four o'clock and the other precinct,
(04:20):
So I, you know, got in touch with them and
told him what I was doing, and and then I
had to go from there and go home change and
they go to work. Two days at the night eleven,
I was transferred from the two old precinct to the
first Precinct, Lower Manhattan. UH. They needed help down next
they was shorthanded a little busy UM and I handled
cases in the first precinct and what we're here for
(04:43):
now is one of the cases was the missing personne House.
Philip Stark has never spoken publicly about this case until now.
We interviewed him in person during COVID, which is why
at points he sounds muffled through his mask. For of
your investigative effort, you checked hospitals, morgues, homeless shelters. Um,
(05:05):
I n s credit card records. Is that all correct? Um?
I assume that's relatively standard. Um. Did you recognize this
as a high profile case early on? Or did did
you give it any extra effort or attention? No, I
could say attention I give any case. Um. But but
(05:26):
I realized it was like a high profile until I
started seeing um, you know, violence putn't flies all over
the place. Now that was Manhattan. I found. I was
seeing him like in my neighborhood. I was like, you know,
I'm seeing pictures. So far he made up his own flies.
On September four, two thousand one, at eleven pm, Ron
filed a written complaint with the NYPD, triggering an official
investigation into Snake House disappearance. Initially it went to the
(05:49):
Missing Persons Squad, then it was flagged as a Category
G case and went to Detective Stark. Can you tell
me a little bit more about category G. What does
that include? Category GEZ just they just call a category G.
But it's the mission person doesn't fall on the missing
person protocol. If you don't come home tonight and you
go for know your wife, please say he's missing, to
(06:10):
go where it's not really missing, because just because he
could be out, he could have went on just if
you guys are not getting along. He went on a
week long trip. But he has to fall under the
category over a certain age which is seventy two, under
a certain age which is sixteen on the sixteen, and
he have to some kind of mental something going on
physically or mentally that makes you that you can't take
(06:32):
care of yourself. Then you become a missing person. But
if you're healthy and you know you're of age, especially
an active doctor, and you just you know, disappeared, um,
it's not consider a missing person over a favorite of time.
Category G is a technical designation. It means that a
person is quote absent under circumstances indicating unaccountable or involuntary disappearance.
(06:57):
It requires an immediate investigation. There's two things you want
to police up on the kind of go with you
missing and a coupy. You know what the copy is,
that's an unsolved homicide with they can't determine if it
was a homicide or not, but they can't say it's
not a homicide. So it gets the worst. I mean,
it's just pretty much unsolvable most of the time. Not
well category G. It's sometimes it comes out. Most of
(07:18):
time it comes out in the bed because the person
turns out to see someone and so it gets it
gets kicked back to you guys, you get the case. Um,
after scanning the initial information, what were your first thoughts
that did it just stick out? Is this is a
bizarre case or was it more of a everything is
chaos right now and this is just everything is chaos
and there's uh, there's a lot of thousands of people
(07:42):
doing miss impression reports because they can't just like ron Um,
you know, he couldn't grasp that she was in the
building and she's dead. He couldn't grasp he believes she
was alive and something else happened. He just you know,
with a denial pretty much. So tell me just about
your togative steps that you would do in general, but
specifically with this case. Um, the steps that you took
(08:05):
and kind of walked me through that process. Well, Cole
Rono Ron came into the precinct and we sat down
for an hour or so and tald Um just learn
more about him and about Snayha and he you know,
he told me, you know, like I said, I don't
want to say too much stuff that he she was
having issues substance abuse, mental illness, marital trouble, legal trouble.
(08:30):
She was in court that monday. I don't know you
know about that right m on the on the tent.
So Um we were just talking about that and he
believed that she was kidnapped or something else happened. And
I'm like, okay, I was like we'll look into it,
of course, but I mean just logically, you know, you
live next to the Trade Center and you're telling me that,
you know, she said to her mother the night before
(08:52):
she was going shopping in the in the in the mall,
um the concourse mall, and in the trade enter. This
is extremely importon because although snay Hall lived near the
World Trade Center, according to ron quote, we never go there.
She had no business there. So in order to believe
that snay had died at the Trade Center, her family
had to understand why she was there in the first place.
(09:15):
They put forth at least four conflicting explanations. One snay
Hall was shopping at the mall underneath the World Trade Center. Two,
snay Hall was visiting Windows on the World, the famous
restaurant on top of the North Tower, in advance of
a friend's upcoming wedding reception there. Three the night before,
(09:37):
say attended a party at a hotel next to the
Trade Center, hosted by the city's quote South Asian community,
and presumably stayed the night even though she lived only
nine feet away. And four snay Hall was walking home
on eleven from somewhere else, passing by the towers just
as the attacks began. Obviously, snay Hawk could not have
(10:00):
been shopping at the mall, visiting Windows on the World,
leaving a hotel next to the towers, and walking home
from somewhere else all at the same time. But once
her family settled on the hero narrative that she ran
into the towers to help victims and died, they needed
a why to understand why she was there. In the
early days before the hero narrative. Snay House family genuinely
(10:23):
thought she was alive, and none of them, especially Ron,
wanted Detective Stark to prematurely declare snay Ha at nine
eleven victim. Detective Stark understood that impulse, the desire to
investigate everything, but to him, nine eleven always made the
most sense. So I'm just, you know, being a detect
kind of like leans that way. So I'm just leaning.
(10:46):
He goes see he understood that a little bit, but
he had a doubt in his mind this makeup. Can
I have a doubt my mind. I don't think she's
out of I don't think she died. I think something
else happened. So that's why we went through the hole.
UM and I just got information phone, you know, anybody
she got contact with. I wish he works. UM. I
responded to the apartment, looked at video footage. I identified her.
(11:07):
I don't not face identify. I don't know if um.
Did Ron tell you about this? So so yeah, so
they're attree am on nine eleven. There's an image of
someone that's the blurry image exiting her apartment building. Well,
it's not blurry that you had the slide and back
of her. But Ron did state that he recognized the dress, like, well,
(11:28):
that could be one of addresses, Like he was never
sure about anything. In the Court Rutgers, he said that
he did not think that that was her. Yeah, no, yeah,
well they was leaking towards not thinking. But again he
was he was really really in denial of this. So
you got to take that into consideration. Fair enough, but
I don't buy it. Ron was in a much better
(11:49):
position to determine whether or not thirty seconds of low
quality footage actually showed his wife. Were you able visually
to make an identification of that woman as or how much?
How certain were you? How much doubt did you not?
Not not a facial you no, no, not a positive idea?
What made you ninety percent sure? Just how mannerisms? Seeing
(12:11):
how watching her video for like hours and hours and
Century one, the way she walks, the way, her mannerisms
and she had the exact same mannerisms, say the night
before you know, Century This doesn't make any sense. The
Century twenty one footage includes only a few frames of
snay Ha, making it next to impossible to compare it
to thirty seconds of a different low quality video and
(12:34):
declare with certainty that the woman who exited to Rector
Place at eight three am on nine eleven was actually
snay ha. If it was snay Haa the woman on
video at three, why wouldn't she have her shopping bags
because she had stayed somewhere else the night of the tent.
Then she was coming out of apartment, she was going shot.
(12:55):
So so you so you think that that person in
the video was already in the building, It wasn't because
I've read that speculation that it was something that walked
in and then turned around and walked out. So you
did that video show somebody entering the building and exiting
or just exiting the building, exiting, attended a lobby for
a few maybe exiting with that that would indicate that
(13:22):
she was in the building. Though and Ron said later
on that Um and the family said that they were
not able to find any sign that she had been
in the apartment. That's a big question, walk. That was
always a big question. Walk. It's also a big deal.
Detective Stark just said that he thinks Nah was inside
her apartment on the morning of nine eleven, then exited
(13:43):
the building at three, only three minutes before American Airlines
flight eleven hit the North Tower fet away. If true,
if that means that either sna did come home late
nine or early nine eleven and Ron lied when he
said she did not come home, or she snuck into
her apartment after Ron left for work and left no trace,
(14:06):
or Detective Stark is wrong. The woman at forty three
is not snay Ha. Snay Hall was not in the apartment.
One thing that would help answer this question is being
able to see the digital photos Ron took when he
returned to the apartment on September twelve, two one, Because
according to Ron, snay Ha left behind her passport, I
(14:27):
D wallet, glasses and other critical belongings. What do the
photos show? Do they show the passport, I D wallet
and glasses? Do they show any signs snay how it
was in the apartment after I don't know. There's also
a crucial witness who could help clear this up. His
(14:47):
name is Jimmy Nelson. He's the doorman who worked the
night shift that Ron and snay Haus building from eleven
pm on nine ten until seven am on nine eleven.
If anyone saw snay return or ro On leave, it
would have been Jimmy. Unfortunately, he did not respond to
interview requests. Finally, the apartments security footage is also vital
(15:10):
to Rector has at least three entrances, front, back, and side.
I'm not sure if they were all covered by cameras
in two thousand one. The front definitely was the rest.
I don't know. Do the tapes show Snajab returning home
one or early nine eleven? Do they verify Ron's story?
(15:32):
I don't know. I don't have access to the footage.
I contacted the company that owns two Rector the related
companies to see if they saved nine ten and or
nine eleven security footage. They never responded. The NYPD probably
has the tapes, but it denied me access to most
case files. Finally, there was at least one big flaw
(15:55):
with the NYPDS investigation. According to court records. To tell
to Stark did not watch all of the security footage.
He testified that he did see Snay leave the building
around five pm on nine ten, and the mystery woman
who he thinks is Snay, exit at eight forty three
am on nine eleven, but he did not watch all
(16:17):
of the footage between five pm on nine ten and
eight forty three am on nine eleven, fifteen and a
half hours of footage. I don't think anyone has ever.
(16:54):
Let's return for a minute to the mystery call placed
at four oh five am on nine eleven from Ron
and snay house apartment landline to Ron's cell phone. Ron
said he was alone in the apartment at the time
and that half asleep, he probably used the landline to
dial his cell to see if snay Hall left him
a voicemail, but he has no memory of making the call,
(17:15):
so more or less he thinks he's sleep dialed his
cell from his landline. To me, it's just odd. I
get that nine eleven was traumatic, but this is such
a critical detail. Did he did he give you an
explanation about what that he couldn't. Do you have any
idea did you find any reasonable explanation of because he
(17:37):
said he didn't remember that a good feeling. I saw
her leave the next morning and she was going to
said to her mother who I was the night before?
She was going shopping the ground that it just all
went together. Do you think coinences Do you think she
was in the apartment? Done? Yes? See it? Then? Do
(18:01):
you ross story was that he was? He was He
got home around eleven fifteen, and that he left I
think six thirty in the morning on nine eleven, um,
and that he never Yeah, so do you think she
entered there's there's there's some discrepancy. She either entered after
he left or she was there and he's not telling
(18:21):
the truth. Do you have any indication of it could be? Yeah.
I mean he changed the story about three or four
times with me to the whole investigation, so it's possible
he's lying. Or when you say changed the story three
or four times, any specific details or what do you
mean by that? Um, just saying that she was taught
(18:42):
she wasn't plot of Night eleven, that she was kidnapped,
and then later on what was real? Later on he
said she was plating Night eleven, But um story or
what what she did? Like she was adopted in community
and you know the situation happened. Now, the situation he's
referring to is the incident in which Snay had claimed
a fellow doctor sexually assaulted her in a bar, then
(19:05):
allegedly recanted and harassed the doctor and his wife, UM
and affilly with the brother, the brother's girlfriend. And you know,
he just he said it didn't happen, and the brother
said it, you know, said it, didn't you know what
she thought? He was inconsistent with some things. The quote
(19:27):
story with the brother and the brother's girlfriend. Okay, well,
Detective Stark did not want to go into detail with
me out of respect for snay House family. But years
ago in court, Start said that snay has younger brother,
John told him that shortly before nine eleven, John walked
in on and his girlfriend having sex. John later denied
(19:50):
telling this to Start. In fact, he denied speaking to
Start at all. So figuring out her, say has final
movements and communications on um, how did you go about
doing that? Just interviewing people? Can you talk about did
you actually visit CenTra one and view the footage or
(20:11):
was it sent to you? No, I was. I went
to I can't remember how we I think it was.
I think it was credit card uh usage. That's how
we found figured out she was there once we did UM. No,
he was finding that I was there for like four
or five hours video because it's I wish I had
the video I have now in this building. But it's
the old time. You know, it wasn't um motion sense.
(20:34):
You know, you had to look at the whole thing.
So ron Ron said that he spent several weeks going
and looking at that video too, and then he found her.
Um did you view it after he did? Or beef?
Did you who found her first? On the UM? And
I assume he probably was looking for other signs of
her and probably if you was, what was what somebody else?
(20:55):
You know who? Anybody could be anybody, but she wasn't
you know, she was by the whole time on what
I viewed. So that that's that's a very interesting point
because the last person to see her live was a
shoe salesperson, Sonya Mora the next floor. I never looked
at that footage. I just sent and what And so
(21:17):
the last person to see her a live said that, well, frankly,
their discrepancies with this um I've seen and read in
different records that um that Snayhu was with someone, that
she wasn't with someone that the sales clerk thought she
might be with someone, you know, versus a story that
the sales clerk was definitively sure and that had she
(21:38):
had talked to them and they said they were going,
you know, somewhere else afterwards, it seems kind of murky
do you have did you ever determine whether or not
UM with any certainty? Snayho was with anyone? That? No, No,
she wasn't you know that? I said, only view the
center one video. I don't know, why do you? I don't.
I can't remember why. I don't if it wasn't available,
(22:01):
it was, it was part of sent it wasn't. Yeah,
it was just a different, different part. Yeah, but you
didn't viewing the video, you didn't see any photographic evidence,
videographic evidence that's the hose with anybody else, because that
would have been key, that would have been a key
part of it to find out who that person was. UM,
do you have any reason to doubt the story of
(22:23):
the person the last person to see her, who insinuated
or said that she was with somebody else? Maybe she
just met somebody, was talking to somebody and you know
that that I didn't see anybody what the um like,
you know, next to her or talking to her. Um,
But no, I don't know. Maybe he just missed him
(22:43):
to maybe he thought the person was with her. Uh so,
UM was it a male female? She said it was
a female. So you obtained UM call records? Did you
explain tell me tell me about that. Can you get
these records? These are calling people? Did you contact Rizon?
How do you investigate that at the time? Yeah, if
(23:05):
you have subpoena and um, you know sub minute to
the horizon. I believe it was a rising at the time,
and then you just get the records of the you know,
any phone calls. Like I said, it's twenty years ago,
but I think Ron even supplied some phone records. Yeah. Um,
and so you got I assumed the phone wreckers for
the apartment landline. Did you also get any cell phone
(23:29):
wreckers from either Snaha or Ron? Yes, I don't. I
know what I remember her phone was nothing, no activity
on her phone rule after nine eleven. This is another discrepancy.
Detective Stark says that snay Hot did have a cell phone.
Ron said she did not. To be fair, we're talking
(23:50):
twenty years ago. Memories fade and these are very specific questions.
Do you know this is a question I wasn't able
to tell from the records. Um, via the records, it
seemed that she did not have a cellphone, but that
he did have a cellphone. Does that seem accurate? I
don't even Yeah, myself just had a phone for two
(24:10):
years at that point. Something that I noticed, um in
the records is that there's no mention of a pager,
and since she was a doctor, she almost certainly would
have had a pager. Um, do you have any recollection
of either finding or obtaining a pager that she left behind,
or of obtaining records related to her pager? No? I
(24:33):
just I thought that was kind of odd because I've
talked to people that worked with her, and obviously she
was a doctor. Um, she certainly would have had a
pager at the time. She was worth in the St.
Vincent's Instan Island and she was on like modified duty.
I don't know what she did when she went to work,
but she wasn't doing any like you know, she was modified.
I don't know what that means in a medical field.
(24:54):
As part of his investigation, Detective Stark visited St. Vincent,
the hospital We're snay how worked for only ten weeks
before she disappeared. According to Stark, sna was having trouble
at her new job and was on quote modified duty.
Plus she was off work one and nine eleven, So
I don't know if she had a pager, either personal
(25:16):
or professional with her. On the day she vanished, and
I've seen no indication that the nyp D examined any
pager records. So you get this case. Obviously, this put
(25:52):
it into context again of the chaos of nine eleven
and the fact that there are six thousand people who
are alleged missing and the daily news is ten thousands
fear dead, and so I think it's important to put
it in context that it was chaotic and at the time,
beyond the three thousand people that died, Um, you know,
there were thousands of other people. You do blicates of
(26:13):
different people listening their love the ones that's missing. Um,
when you got this, did you immediately think nine of
it World Trade Center? That's the answer or well, it's
not the answer, but it's what I thought at first.
But it wasn't the answer. You know, what do you
mean by that? I mean, it's always a possibility to
what Ron saying. So that's why we got the case
(26:34):
and we looked into it. We just dismissed it as
it's just part of nine eleven. There was a lot
of like I said, I told you Anifolias. You know,
the average homicide has one box of files. This case
had two box to files. There was a lot more
work done, you know, um on this case than like
a homicide. Well, it became a tide profile. Then we
(26:55):
got you know, not that we we've done more work,
but it just the family was pricing, was involved, they
hired a private investigator. UM, so it became more well involved.
What would what would be in those two boxes? What
kind of when you say two boxes of records or files? Um,
(27:17):
mostly like the forms of DV five which at any
time we talked to somebody like right now and talk
to you. If I was detective interviewing you. After a
interview you writing everything down, I would go to the
typewriter of a crime and have computer and the type
out of DD five about the whole conversation. We just had,
so a lot of those and then phone records, any
records anything to deal with the case, video footage. I
(27:39):
tried to get the records, d N y p D
would not confirm whether or not they even exist. So
in terms of alternate explanations, UM, how seriously did you
consider suicide foul play either you know, kidnapping or murder
or the fact that she possibly just ran off. Um.
(28:00):
I learned I'll lean more towards possible because of the situation.
But she was in I know that she just had
a fight with Ron that night, the night before Starkness spoke.
He meant the morning before the morning of possible suicide
and possibly just ran off those two possibilities. You don't
believe foul play is even possible though, No, I've seen
(28:20):
no reason in it. I don't see I mean talking
about what like, uh, well, in the beginning, maybe we
just looked at Ron saying because you know, the day
to fight, and yeah, we have all options are opened
that he possibly did something to him. That was that
was on the table too in the beginning, In the beginning,
how do you how do you walk the line between
balancing the possibility that this is the family of a
(28:43):
possible nine eleven victim with also your responsibility is a
detective to look at people around her and close to
her and consider them, but you know, responsibly consider them
as potential suspects. How do you how did you walk
that line? Oh, just deal with him and like I'm
doing with you now, and just feel him out and
you could just learn from his character and you know
(29:05):
how to act and all the time, I mean me
and Ron meant about thirty times, so we were always meeting.
He's always coming over the precinct, and but he's got
to I just didn't see it and him doing it,
that's all, and doing anything banta huh. That's all he seemed.
I mean, he seemed to straw, and he seemed like
he really fought hard. But he felt more destrough and
(29:25):
hard because of the fight they had. And I think,
deep deep down, he he felt he was splot at
Night eleven, but he had he was just in denial
and he was just wants to keep all options open
because he was guilty about having a fight with them,
like the last time he saw her, they had a fight. Yeah,
what when you say fight, what do you what do
you mean? I've read that they fought outside of the court.
(29:48):
You're talking about something at the apartment or outside the court,
and you know, I guess that. Well, I don't know
what they I don't not sure what they did after
the court, if they went back to their appointment. I
can't remember. He's he said that. They said that. He
said they went back to the apartment, and he was
just saying that they were He just remembers I remember
him saying that he just remember shads, you know, they
were fighting the last time he saw. Um, what about
(30:14):
the other family members? I mean, obviously, Uh, the interview
with her younger brother John is something that is a
point of contention. Um, what can you tell me about
interviewing him? Like I said, I don't want to stay
nothing bad about but you know, people they think I
made you know, why would I make some story like
that up? But I'm talking to him and he's telling me,
(30:34):
you know, if we told for like an hour his
own Yeah, well there was an incident that this happened
that again, John allegedly walked in on snay having sex
with his girlfriend. And then I'm like, oh, okay, well
all right, you know, not that happened, that snow breaking.
That's that's how that happened. But that's what he and
he was concerned about. And also huh Stark asked me
(30:58):
to go off the record, which we did briefly. Later
in court, the family said and the younger brother, John
said that you made that up, that it's not true.
What did you think when you heard that? Because somebody,
somebody's telling the truth. Who's telling this? The first time
I heard that was read. It was in the new
tape of auticle. I tried calling nuth they wouldn't talk
(31:19):
to me. I'm saying, it's a lie. You know, you
gotta you know this is what he told me. And
they're saying that I made it up. I mean, that's
why would I take that up? Why? I mean, think
about it. You know, it's not affecting the case. It's
not gonna Why don't I just come out of that
and make something like that? He lying, yes, he's lying
that he didn't tell If he saying he didn't tell
(31:39):
me that, then he's lying. Yes. Well he won't even
further um because he was It was probably Ron probably
yelled at him and you know, and made him say
that he didn't say it just sounds bad the family,
to the whole family, to the situation. Well, it went't
even further um. You know, years later, and I think
(31:59):
it was part of the court proceeding, uh that John
Snay has brother denied even ever talking to you. Okay, Well,
I probably have a paperwork saying, you know, when I
I said anything I told somebody I do to d
D five and that's on record that I told me.
Why why do you think he would deny even talking
to you or change his story. I don't know. Maybe
(32:22):
the family got to him Ron saying, you know, you
can't say a bit stuff about saying how like this
and you know say you didn't say it. You know,
did you feel you were getting straight answers when you
interviewed the family? Uh? Yes, yes, Like I said, they're
all in denial, so I can't say anything you straight
answers because you know to the denial they were in
(32:42):
that she was not with us anymore. Um, but no, yeah,
yeah they will the filmily was you know, I talked
to the parents on the phone only and they was
just very distraught and I just told him what I
was doing. They asked me questions and then I didn't
really get into anything else stuff for that. The question
(33:06):
did you review snay has final emails? Um? Any records
of final calls? We talked about that instant messages? Did
you have a chance I can't remember. Is the one
to the mother saying she's going shopping the next early morning?
That the traits? Then did you actually did you hear
that from the mother? Did you actually get a copy
of her communication? I had a copy communication, So you
(33:27):
read it, read it over um other than the mother.
Do you remember if there was anybody who she spoke
to the afternoon of the tenth. Also remember is arguing
with Ron and talking to her mother. That was That
was here we have yet another discrepancy. No one disputes
that snay House spoke with her mom onto right before
(33:49):
she disappeared, But apparently she also spoke with one or
both of her brothers, and I don't know what she said.
According to an archived copy of a website created by Snayhouse,
all their brother Ashwyn snay Hawk communicated with Ashwyn via
instant messenger at two thirty pm on September, But according
to a different source, a Newsday article written by Hugo Kogia,
(34:12):
snay Ha sent emails to her mother and younger brother
John at two thirty and three pm. Hugo interviewed John
for the story, which Newsday published only two weeks after
nine eleven, So presumably it was John himself who said
that Say emailed him right before she disappeared. One brother
says snay Haw communicated with him via instant messenger. One
(34:36):
said she emailed him. Neither mentions. The other brother neither
reveals with Snaha actually said, have you ever have you
been interviewed in the last ten or fifteen years at all?
About nine eleven were this case? Oh no, when's the
last time you're Have you ever been interviewed about this case? Um? No,
I turned it down by they wanted to interview my
(34:57):
lest year on a job and I was advised to talk,
you know, not not to do it. So this is
the first interview he's getting all this case. Um do
you still have any case records or case files or
anything that I don't somewhere? I don't know. So do
typically those two boxes that you collected? Would they be
thrown in a warehouse or art It would take a
(35:19):
while to find them. If I have to find out
who would be in charge of that, I don't even know.
Like I said, I've been out sixteen years now, so
everything is different now, please, department is totally different. Stark
left the NYPD in two thousand five. Hm. Is there
anything I'm missing? I've gone over my major points, But
(35:40):
I anything that you want to say anything that? No,
Just that I was into this case at the time
a lot, you know, I mean when I was off
duty because I was a neighbor. I've looked down any
square and I see you. Yeah. I actually went so
far as to follow a lady and stop her, and
I was nuts. She was in you know, actually come
out of hospital and scrubs actually just like you know,
(36:01):
look like her. But it wasn't how one size I
d card in the face was just the same size hair.
She was endian. But you know that's how I was
into this, not too many case. I'm into when I'm
more duty. When I was working. When when was that?
Was that? Sorally? After that had to be a couple
of weeks, you know when Ron put all the flies out,
had him at over the place. UM As an investigator,
(36:25):
when you're dealing with families that are suffering and trying
to figure out what happened to their loved one, to
missing loved one, how do you balance a sense of
compassion and doing what the family wants with drawing a
line and saying I've done all I can do? How
do you how do you find that line? And then
how do you convey that to the families? Well, it
(36:45):
gives compassion is much you can you know, typing a
personality what you like and then they know you have
to do your job, and I want you to do
your job, so you have to, you know, the compassionate,
be nice, but I always was. Um Ron got nasty
it to me, but I kept my I just you know,
I never got an asked to him because I know
what he was going through the same time, the same
(37:08):
time she's going on. They you mentioned the what people
the compassion One of the other Jaws detective was to
go to uh An Armory and it was an interview area.
I don't know if you know about that. Yeah, you know,
you don't know, like hundreds of people outside online. We
go there and I was interviewing families and these families
were like I don't understand. Like I was talking to
(37:29):
my son and all of a sudden, how to talk
to him? And you know, I need to need to
check the hospitals, and I know what fool is he on?
And it said something like the ninety four, which is
a bug. Would have fined it like and it works
for cancer, the sheralds. So I'm like, so I left
him talk and I'm like, sorry you were what could
have happened? And he just put his head down and
he's on the upper floors above the plane and if
(37:53):
you know, and they still you know, in denial, but
you know they kind of was setting in. But we
had an interview, and it's families because they were they
wanted to know what happened to them love one, especially
when they were talking to them, you know, at the
same time on the phone. And I just went to
what was what was it like just for you as
a New Yorker in the immediate days and weeks after?
(38:14):
I mean, I do I do you have clear memories
of it or is it just kind of a blur
because it was right now to talking about it brings
back memories, but it's got to blur in general. Um, yeah,
the whole day and just like I said, the day
after the twelve that went down, now, um, you know,
(38:35):
like I was on a pile voluntarily and then I'm
pretty shore was the third afternoon or the morning of
the thirteenth that the wind change and all of a sudden,
the smell of nine eleven was coming into the window
of my apartment and my wife was like, what the
happen is that? What was that smell? And uh, you know,
it just remind me of burn of flesh, That's what
(38:56):
it smells like, you know, like I said, like disintegrated,
Like this is that powder that was coming all over
the That was a lot of those human remains that
was disintegrated from the heat of that, you know, defian
from the jet fuel. Stark still suffers lingering health effects
from the time he spent volunteering at Ground zero when
he wasn't investigating this case. One of the things that
(39:18):
I thought was interesting is in court you said that
you believe this case is closed and the leads are exhausted,
but you did not use the words solved to you
specifically avoided using the words solved. Can you explain, well,
technically not solved until DNA pop came up from nine eleven,
so you can't say hundred, you know, until a DNA
(39:41):
pop shows from the remains you mentioned a few weeks
after nine eleven seeing someone who looked like her. There's
a uniquip. Do you do you still feel like you're
sometimes even though you believe she died in the towers
that you kind of keep an eye out to see
if come my brain Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I
(40:03):
always say if I see any kind of medical but
my my my brother was the doctor. He's name. He's
from going so. Um even when I see anybody in yeah,
I do think about it. If I see from in
the hospital, will I see a doctor or you know,
that's just you know it's Indian has the teat and
she pops in my mind. How's the family doing? You
(40:26):
keep in contact with him? I've talked loosely with them,
but they just don't monitor New York. So the father died, uh,
I believe a year or two ago. Um, So's he's gone.
The mom still lives upstate. At Ron lives in California.
I remember him. And then the brothers, Um one is
(40:48):
in the city, and then I I'm not sure the
other one I think is in Florida. So, but they're
they're all still around. I mean Ron's and I've the
mother mom Onto and Ron have just did polite least
hold me that they just don't want to talk to anyone. Um. John,
the younger brother, is on the fence about talking. So
it's it's kind of for me. It's kind of hard
(41:10):
because I want to be fair and you know, there's
there's what you have from an investigation in court records,
and I want to tell the story of who she
was as a person because she had thirty one years
on the planet. She was, you know, she's a human being,
beyond gated about five years she graduated, I think from
(41:30):
medical school. Ye, I think, I'm pretty sure in Chicago.
Um yeah, I mean she had only been married a
year and a half, not that long. Um, so you know.
I then you just see that the photos of that wedding. Yeah,
some wedding, right, Yeah, I see. I've seen some video
(41:51):
from it too. Hey, I appreciate it. Um. I don't
know what I've missed. Always pour over my nose fifty
thousand times, but um, you know, any any final words
and summary. I think she was a good person, A
little confused. I'm not sure how good of a docks
she watches Rere New so how good I don't know, um,
but I do feel, you know, my gut nent that
(42:14):
she was of nine eleven, that's what she pet. She
passed away, and I just feel bad for the family
and and Ron. I hope he's going okay in California. Well,
thank you so much. I appreciate it. Okay, welcome good
(42:35):
next time I'm missing on nine eleven. The fact show
that everybody would be entitled to Destiny that they died
at the trade Center for two people, and one of
the two was and Philip homework this week? One do
you work for the NYPD and have access to the
Snay Half Philip case files? Do you know if they
(42:56):
even still exist? Two? Do you know Jimmy Nelson, the
doorman who worked the eleven to seven shift at Rectord
Place A nine ten and nine eleven? Three? Did you
work at St. Vincent's medical center on Staten Island in
two thousand one? If so, you can reach us by
phone at one eight three three New Tips. That's one
(43:19):
eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven
again one eight three three six three nine eight four
seven seven, or you can reach us via email at
tips at iHeart media dot com. That's Tips, T I
P s at iHeart media dot com. Ben Bollen is
(43:41):
our executive producer. Paul Decan is our supervising producer, Chris
Brown is our assistant producer. Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer.
Sam T. Garden is our research assistant, and I'm your
host and executive producer John Walzack. Cover art by Pam Peacock.
Special thanks to Tamika Campbell at I Heart and to
Christoph Zaprey in New Orleans. Also thank you to Detective
(44:03):
Richard Stark and ASoP Rock. Original theme music by ASoP Rock.
Check out asops website at ASoP rock dot com. You
can find me on Twitter at at John wallzac j
O n W A L C C A K. If
you like this show, check out our first season, Missing
in Alaska, about the nineteen seventy two disappearance of two congressmen.
(44:26):
Missing on nine eleven is a co production of I
Heart Radio and Greenfork Media
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