7. Foul Play

Jon looks at suspects – and lands a key interview.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
A crazed killer prowling the streets of Manhattan the night
before nine to eleven. It's evocative and absurd. I mean, sure,
it's possible, but it's extremely unlikely, so unlikely, I'm not
going to waste your time seriously considering it. In two
thousand and one, there was one murder in the NYPD's
first precinct, a single, non nine to eleven murder in

(00:23):
Lower Manhattan. So the idea of a random killer murdering
Sneha on September tenth, two thousand and one is ludicrous.
You might say, well, what about Sneha's quote lifestyle? If
she met random people at bars, at lesbian bars? What
about that? First off, Snaho was probably safer at lesbian

(00:44):
bars than at hetero bars packed with men. And the
idea of what a lesbian killer pulling off the perfect
crime on the eve of nine to eleven, it's laughable.
Here's Mark Boguten, Ron Liebermann's attorney, could be a victim
of random violence and crazy Hillo running through or then
had in that night. Okay, and so let's sake to start,

(01:06):
He testified at the hearing. He said, it's very rare
that somebody is murdered in that fashion without a body
ever turning up, And that's really what this spoils down
to nobody. Remember we're talking about Manhattan, an island packed

(01:28):
with one point six million people. A body almost certainly
would have been found on land or in a river.
So when considering explanations forced snayhouse disappearance, I think we
can safely cross off random act of violence. But what
about a non random act of violence? What if Snayhau
was killed by someone she knew, maybe even accidentally during

(01:51):
a heated argument. From My Heart Radio, This is Missing
on nine to eleven, the story of one woman who
vanished on the eve of history and my quest to
find her. I'm your host, John Waalzac. The NYPD, private investigators,

(02:39):
and attorneys all focused on the idea of random violence.
You see it repeatedly in court records. Quote a random
act of foul play, a random act of violence, a
random act of New York City street violence that they
didn't seriously consider people snaeha New as possible suspects strikes
me as disingenuous. Most murdered women are killed by men

(03:02):
they know, and most people, especially cops, private investigators, and
attorneys know that. What makes you certain that it wasn't
maybe somebody she knew, like, but it wouldn't have been
somebody she knew, because then that's something you can investigate.
Anybody have a grudge. Was there a beef with their disagreement?
Was she involved in any type of vendetta? He give
was some crazy neighbor. Maybe it's a crazy neighbor upstairs

(03:24):
that she doesn't do it, but he thought or she thought,
you know, she was sending radio waves into his brain.
And then but no, if it was anybody that she
knew of in her circle, or that's something you could investigate,
there'd be some sign of them. And they spoke to
spoke to everybody. Do you think that the NYPD really
fully investigated this though, because when I looked at Detective

(03:45):
Stark's words and court, it seemed very much like from
the get go that he just assumed that Snail was
a trade center victim as far as they can see
from what his testimony was in the police reports that
I did. Yeah, they did all the basic stuff, and
they did everything was required. They said, you do the
financial records. Obviously did that public record financial records, and

(04:05):
they spoke to everybody who knew her work and family friends.
That's what else do you have? Work, family friends. They
did all that, and if there had been some and
they asked those people, obviously those those basic questions you
just brought up. Did anybody have a grudge against her?
She involved in any type of disputes? And again, it
seriously possible to some dispute that nobody knew about. So
I said, maybe it was a crazy neighbor in the building,
you know, I mean, that's like you I would say,

(04:28):
that's stress clutching at straws. I mean, it's highly unlikely
they there's no evidence they pursued that wasn't actually had
a dispute, grudge, disagreement. I'm sure you can't rule at
one hundercent craz killer. You can't rule out one hundercent.
Maybe there was some grudge, and there were grudges snayhad
did have enemies, people who were not investigated as thoroughly

(04:49):
as they would have been if nine to eleven had
not occurred. What makes you so sure that it could
not have been foul play at the hands of somebody
that she knew. I'm sure that it's not foul play,
as I am that it's not aliens, because what the
detective said, bodies show up, because there has to be
some evidence. They did speak to everybody. And you say

(05:11):
somebody she knew, somebody she knew, it's even even more
likely because that would have been a trace. It would
have been Yeah, she had a beef with this person,
had a dispute. Oh she upset that person or that person,
as they said, maybe it was a neighbor in the building,
but she she was playing the radio too loud and
this was a psycho and but that, but she had
she had a dispute at the time, at least with

(05:32):
two people she knew, doctors. She did with the man
who she accused of assaulting her, that was and that
was a court proceeding, and he brought charges against My
understanding killer. My understanding is he lived in the same
building and down the killer. Come on, now, you getting no, no, no,
even more I mean than the people in court were. No.

(05:54):
I'm not saying, but I'm saying, you know, if you're
running through all the things wandering the streets in Manhattan,
or you know, or somebody she's involved in a court
dispute with, I'm sure the police spoke to him. I'm
sure obviously the primary person to speak to. I'm sure
they spoke to him. I asked retired NYPD detective Richard
Stark about the possibility of murder. You don't believe foul

(06:16):
play is even possible, though, No, I don't seen no
reason in it. I don't see. Well, in the beginning,
maybe we just looked at Ron saying, because you know,
it s the day of fighting. Yeah, we all auctions
are opened. That he possibly did something to us. That
was that was on the table too in the beginning.
In the beginning, me and Ron meant about thirty times,
so we were always meeting. He's always coming over to precinct,

(06:38):
and well he's got to I just didn't see it
him doing it, That's all I know. I know the
husband is always suspect number one. But no one I
interviewed seriously thinks that Ron killed Snayha. Everyone described him
as a gentle soul, someone stricken with grief who went
to great lengths to find her. Do I think Ron

(07:00):
is telling the truth about everything? No? But do I
think he killed Sneha? No? I don't. However, I do
think the way investigators handled Ron is important because there
are signs they didn't seriously investigate him, and I think
that says more about the investigation than it does about Ron.

(07:22):
Take for example, Ron's computer. Detective Stark obtained it. He
did his job, but when he turned it over to
the NYPD's Computer Investigation and Technology Unit or c i TU, well,
they did not analyze it. Instead, it went through an
incompetent circle. Detective Stark got the computer, gave it to

(07:43):
c I TU, it sat there, no one examined it,
and Ron got it back. Any other case, this would
be considered lazy, sloppy police work. But before you blame
the NYPD, know that the person who chose to release
the computer was actually Assistant District Attorney Linda Fairstein. If

(08:03):
you recognize her name, it's probably from the infamous Central
Park jogger case, in which Fairstein helped convict five innocent
boys of a brutal rape they did not commit. According
to NYPD records, Fairstein released Ron's computer without having it
analyzed because quote she thought it was not relevant and

(08:23):
the husband needed it for work end quote. I reached
out to Fairstein. She said she does remember this case.
Clearly she tentatively agreed to an interview, but she flaked out.
She never followed through, so I have no comment from her.
If you rule out Ron, two people still stick out

(08:44):
to me as possible suspects. One is the doctor Sneha
accused of sexually assaulting her at a bar in June
two thousand and one. On September tenth, two thousand one,
the day she disappeared, Sneha was in court because of
this doctor, because he pressed charges against her. Remember, after
telling the NYPD that this doctor assaulted her, Snayha then

(09:07):
allegedly recanted and proceeded to harass the doctor and his wife.
It's understandable then that the doctor may have been upset
with Snayha angry at her. So should we consider the
doctor a suspect. Well, immediately I saw a red flag.
Snayha and the doctor lived in the same apartment building

(09:29):
on the same floor. I thought, wow, okay, maybe at
some point on September tenth, Snayha went to the doctor's apartment,
confronted him, and he harmed her. But here's the thing.
By September tenth, Ron and Snayha had already moved to
a different building in a different part of the city.
By that point, they no longer lived in the same

(09:51):
building on the same floor as the doctor. In addition,
neither the NYPD nor Ron considered the doctor a suspect.
The NYP he cleared the doctor. The final person I
considered was Snayhu's younger brother, John, for four key reasons. First,
John lived at eighty eight Greenwich Street, only five minutes

(10:13):
from Century twenty one, where Snayhaw was last seen alive.
In fact, when Ron came home the night of nine
ten to an empty apartment, that's where he thought she
was at John's apartment. Second, John lied multiple times, most
notably to WABC. He made up a story saying he
spoke to snayha on nine to eleven while she was

(10:35):
in the towers helping people. Later he admitted that was
a lie. John also said multiple times that Detective Stark
did not interview him, but I obtained NYPD records proving
that Detective Stark did interview John by phone on September
twenty nine, two thousand and one, so another lie. Third,

(10:58):
when snay Haaw disappeared and John Ron bad terms Ron
testified in court that day had been fighting fourth. When
questioned about when he last saw or spoke to Snayhaw,
John gave multiple conflicting answers. On September twenty ninth, two
thousand and one, he told Detective Stark that he last

(11:18):
spoke to Snayhaw six weeks prior, around August eighteenth. Later,
in court, he testified that he last saw and or
spoke to Snayha two and a half weeks before nine
to eleven, around August twenty fifth, and John told me, yes,
I interviewed him that he last saw Snayha eight or
nine days before nine to eleven, around September two or third,

(11:43):
August eighteenth, August twenty fifth, September second or third, So yeah,
I was suspicious. I am suspicious. John lived only five
minutes from Century twenty one, where Snayha was last seen alive.
He lied about speaking to Snayha on nine to eleven,
He lied about not speaking to Detective Stark. He and

(12:05):
Snayha were fighting before she disappeared, and he gave multiple
conflicting answers about when he last saw and or spoke
to Snayha. According to Hugo Kogia's Newsday article, which ran
on September twenty six, two thousand and one, Snayha emailed
her mom and John right before she disappeared. I don't

(12:25):
know what she said in the emails or why her
family never mentioned them again after September two thousand and one. Initially,
John did not respond to multiple interview requests, but on
my second to last night in New York reporting this story,
he agreed to meet me the next day an hour
north of the city at a cafe. We spoke for

(12:45):
nearly four hours. John didn't allow me to record our conversation,

(13:15):
but I did take copious notes. Our interview took place
in public, and it was observed by our assistant producer, Chris,
sitting across from me in a wingback chair in a
cafe in the midst of COVID. John describes Snayhu's disappearance
and everything that followed as a mind fuck. The last
twenty years have been extremely painful and exhausting for his family.

(13:37):
He said. He loves snay Haw, he misses her. She
never got to meet John's son, who was born after
nine to eleven. Snay Haw, he said, was quote the
most sophisticated woman I've ever known, empathetic, approachable, authentic, social, charming, quick, witty, dynamic, confident,

(14:00):
ambitious and very brave, so smart it was intimidating. She
was a progressive feminist who supported the LGBTQ community. When
I asked if she identified as a member of the
LGBTQ community, he deflected, joked about card carrying, then said
to his knowledge that no, she didn't. He showed me

(14:21):
photos of Snayha as a child there she was a
happy kid at Disney World. He also showed me her
date book from nineteen ninety to ninety one. I asked
if she kept a journal in two thousand and one.
He said no. I asked if he still has emails
from back then, emails from Snayha. Again, he said no.

(14:42):
During our conversation, John said multiple times that the turning
point in Snayha's life was the alleged sexual assault in
June two thousand and one, the bar incident. NYPD records
showed that Snayha recanted five days after filing an official complaint.
Not true, John's said. Snayhow was assaulted, he said, by

(15:03):
a fellow doctor, a colleague at Cabrini Medical Center. Before
the bar incident, snay Haw was okay He said she
was doing well. She was happy. After she was depressed,
she started drinking more. John believes that had the bar
incident not occurred, Snayhow would still be alive. It's why

(15:23):
Snayha lost her job, he said, Why Cabrini retaliated against her,
Why she moved to a new apartment near the Trade
Center right before nine to eleven, Why she died. But
there's a problem with John's story. It's not accurate. See
Cabrini decided not to renew Snayha's contract in May two

(15:44):
thousand one, one month before the bar incident. In June
two thousand one, John described himself as deeply spiritual and
said he seeks out simplicity. He loves music and plays
the piano. He told me that Snayhaw, six years older
than him, was like a second mother. In the summer

(16:05):
of two thousand, John moved to eighty eight Greenwich Street,
near the Trade Center. His apartment had a wrap around
balcony at the corner of Washington and Rector Quote, a
view to die for a view of the towers. He
was young and happy and entrepreneur. He felt alive. Snayhow
used to come over all the time, He said. She

(16:26):
would tell him about cancer patients she befriended, and she
John and Ron would dine and drink and talk and live.
John and Ron were close. They still are. John refers
to Ron as his brother. In fact, they spoke earlier
that day before our interview, he said. John told me

(16:47):
that the last time he saw Snayhaw was eight or
nine days before nine to eleven, September second or third.
He went over to her apartment. She was happy to
see him, but he could tell she was still struggling.
That night, Snayhawk, John and John's girlfriend went to dinner
at Mustang Sally's, he said, near f I t the

(17:08):
Fashion Institute of Technology. What did they do after dinner?
John said, quote, I don't want to talk about it.
I asked if he ever spoke to Snayha again. He
said no. Today. John is forty five. On nine to eleven,
he was twenty five at the time. He worked from

(17:30):
home running an advertising and marketing company. He remembers September tenth,
two thousand and one, as a beautiful day and said
the weather was incredible, but that's not accurate. On nine ten,
It's thunderstormed for about six hours when I asked John
if it rained on nine ten. He said no. Before

(17:51):
you read too much into this, just remember whatever happened
to Snayha. John lost his sister. Two skyscrapers near his
apartment apsed, killing nearly three thousand people, and the world
his world turned upside down. John remembers dining on his
terrace the night of nine ten. He barbecued on a

(18:12):
grill outside. He said, I asked twice about nine ten.
The first time, John told me about dinner on his terrace,
about barbecuing, but he didn't mention anyone being with him.
The second time, he told me that his girlfriend was there,
that they barbecued together, and that she left his apartment
around one am on nine eleven. At that point, he said,

(18:35):
he went to sleep. The next morning, he awoke to
a boom American Flight eleven hitting the North Tower. At
the same time, his alarm clock went off and Howard
Stern came on. John heard sirens. He went out onto
his terrace. He watched as debris and people tumbled out

(18:56):
of the towers. He went inside, turn on a TV
and tried to turn on a video camera, but the
battery was dead. Fifteen minutes later, the second plane flew
right over him into the South Tower. At nine fifty
nine am, when the South Tower collapsed, John was outside
on his terrace. He saw quote a volcano coming at me.

(19:20):
First he was a statue. Then he ran back into
his apartment. Really, the debris cloud threw him into the apartment.
He was engulfed in quote, this black smog of nothingness.
The sound was overwhelming, so too was the smoke. He
coughed and hacked and choked. He crawled into the hallway

(19:40):
and lay against his front door. A neighbor who saw
him guided him to an elevator and down to the basement,
which had a gym and communal computers. John got on
a computer and spoke briefly with his mom ONSU. He
said he was okay. Security wanted residence to stay in
the basement, but John ig north and went back up

(20:01):
to his apartment. He's not sure if that was before
or after the second tower fell. He thinks In the apartment,
John gathered stuff, including covered business cards. He took a shower,
went back downstairs, and someone gave him a mask. He
managed to evacuate Lower Manhattan on a tugboat, which dropped

(20:21):
him off at thirty first Street. That afternoon, he walked
down Second Avenue to a fireman's bar and had a
few drinks. He knew the area he used to live there,
so he went to his old apartment and met up
with friends. The whole time he had a really bad
sound in his ear, like a concussion. The rest of
nine to eleven was chaos and confusion. It was surreal.

(20:45):
John couldn't reach anyone in his family until the next morning.
On nine twelve, when it became clear that Sneha was
still missing, John joined the search for her. That night,
he lied on w ABC saying that he spoke to
Snaha the day before while she was in the towers.
I asked John why he lied. He said he wanted

(21:05):
to get Snayha on TV to help find her. I
asked whose idea it was to make up a story
his or Ron's, because in two thousand and one, Ron
took responsibility telling twenty twenty quote. I called John on
the phone and I said, don't mention anything about Monday.
Just say she's missing and we're worried, and that should

(21:27):
be enough to get her on TV. But John said no,
it was not Ron's idea. It was his idea. About
a week after nine to eleven, John returned to his
apartment to get stuff. A few weeks after that, he
moved back into the apartment, but he stayed only three
days then left for good. Living there he said, was

(21:47):
like watching a graveyard. I asked John about the NYPD.

(22:17):
He looked me in the eye and said, quote, they
never even spoke with me. I asked him about the story.
He told Detective Stark that shortly before nine to eleven,
he walked in on snay haa having sex with his girlfriend.
He said it was false. I asked why Detective Stark
would just make it up. He said, no idea. The

(22:37):
thing is, I know John spoke with Detective Stark. I
have a record proving that he did so. I watched
him very closely when he lied to me. I watched
his eyes, and then I kept asking questions. One major
unanswered question is whether or not snay Ha had a
cell phone. Detective Stark thinks that she did, so does John.

(23:00):
He also thinks she had a pager, raising the question
if Snayha had a cell phone, if she had a pager,
why Didnity and YPD examine her phone, her pager, her
call records nine to eleven. Obviously and understandably traumatized John.
He still has nightmares. He told me that he did

(23:20):
consider the possibility that someone murdered Snayha, but he thinks
it's unlikely. He also considered the idea that Sneha ran away,
but he dismissed it, saying it was quote asinine. John
is really upset with how the media handled Snayha's story.
He called a prominent New York magazine article about her case,

(23:42):
which ran in two thousand and six, quote butchery. After that,
he said, the family stopped cooperating with reporters. He's upset
that news coverage focused on Snayha's problems and not at
all on the complex, beautiful woman he knew his sister,
the human being. Tabloid coverage was especially hurtful. He said

(24:03):
the fact that Snayha visited lesbian bars was overhyped and sensationalized.
John told me that he has seen YouTube videos theorizing
about what happened to Snayha. He's unsure though, if his son,
now a teenager, has seen them. He doesn't know how
his son would react to sensational coverage of an aunt
he never met. Overall, I found John forthcoming except about

(24:28):
two things. One, the last time he saw Snayha. When
I asked what he Snayha and his girlfriend did after
dinner that night eight or nine days before nine to eleven,
he clammed up. He said he didn't want to talk
about it. And Two, his experience on September tenth, the
day Snayha disappeared. When I asked twice about nine ten,

(24:51):
he seemed thrown off. The second time I brought it up,
he told me that his girlfriend was with him that
night until about one am on eleven. I think John's
girlfriend now is ex girlfriend is indispensable. She's the key witness.
But I was unable to reach her. So where does

(25:13):
that leave us as we consider foul play, as we
consider whether or not someone snahad knew may have killed her.
To me, it all goes back to a lack of
a body. Without a body, it's illogical to think Snaha
was murdered by anyone, either a random crazed killer or
someone she knew. As for John, I don't think he's

(25:34):
telling the truth about September tenth. I wonder strongly whether
or not he saw Snaha that night, whether or not
she went to his apartment after century twenty one. But
even if he did, even if she did, that does
not mean he killed her. There's zero evidence of foul play.
And let me point out strongly that even if someone lies,

(25:55):
you don't necessarily know why. There are a million reasons
why people lie that do not involve murder. Snay Haw's
family understandably wants people to remember her in a positive light,
not in a dark fog of mental illness, substance abuse, affairs,
and conspiracies. They want people to remember snay Haw the

(26:16):
hero who rushed into burning towers on nine to eleven.
Her family loves her. She loved them, especially her mom
a zoo, and that's why they do not believe one
of the other pervasive theories about snayhouse disappearance that she
used nine to eleven as cover to run away to
start a new life. She wouldn't do that to them.

(26:39):
It could not have been snay Ha who mailed a
postcard of the burning towers with the message, everyone who
knew me before nine to eleven believes I'm dead. Next
time on missing on nine to eleven, How does somebody
just get a new passport? Noid that quick and just disappear,
but she planned it. Homework this week. One, I'd like

(27:03):
to speak to John's ex girlfriend. Two I'd like to
speak to Snayhaw's friend Tony. Three did you live at
eighty eight Greenwich Street on nine eleven? Four? Did you
know Snayha in Italy in the nineties? Do you have
any of her paintings? If so, you can reach us
by phone at one eight three three new tips. That's

(27:25):
one eight three three six three nine eight four seven
seven Again one eight three three six three nine eight
four seven seven, or you can reach us via email
at tips at iHeartMedia dot com. That's tips tips at
iHeartMedia dot com. Ben Bowen is our executive producer, Paul

(27:48):
Decan is our supervising producer, Chris Brown is our assistant producer,
Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer. Sam T. Garden is
our research assistant, and I'm your host and executive producer
John Walzack. Cover art by Pam Peacock. Special thanks to
Tamika Campbell at iHeart and to Christoph Zappri in New Orleans.
Also thank you to Mark bogutin, Detective Richard Stark, John

(28:10):
Philip and ASoP Rock. Original theme music by ASoP Rock.
Check out asop's website at ASoP rock dot com. You
can find me on Twitter at at john wallzac j
O n w A l c z a K. If
you like this show, check out our first season, Missing
in Alaska, about the nineteen seventy two disappearance of two congressmen.

(28:32):
Missing on nine to eleven is a co production of
iHeartRadio and Greenfork Media