9. Testify

A date-of-death battle unfolds in court.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
From My Heart Radio. This is Missing on nine eleven,
the story of one woman who vanished on the eve
of history and my quest to find her. I'm your host,
John Wallzac. My name is del Tige. I'm the principal

(00:46):
court attorney referee assigned to this matter. I'm at microphone
one and before us today as an absentee proceeding in
the estate of Snaeja and Philip Foul number three five
four two foul than four Surrogate's Court of the State
of New York, County of New York. Snay House family
is here today nine and eighty nine days after nine eleven,

(01:09):
fighting for a death certificate recognizing that snay Ha died
on nine eleven at the World Trade Center. Representing the
court is Deltigue. An attorney referee representing Snayhouse family is
Attorney Mark Bogutin, and representing snay Ha in absentia is
Ellen Winner, the Guardian ad Ltem. Also present today are

(01:29):
Ron Lieberman say House husband Unshoe, Philip snay House, mom,
John Philip snay House younger brother, Ken Gallant, Ron's private investigator,
and Mark Freiberg, the attorney who represented snay haa before
nine eleven. Now, unfortunately we don't have tapes of the hearing,

(01:50):
so instead we're using voice actors to recreate it. What
you're about to hear is verbatim testimony, edited very lightly
for clarity and flow. Listen closely. It's the only time
you'll get to hear directly from certain people like private
investigator Can Galant, who have otherwise never spoken publicly about
this case. You'll hear me interject occasionally. We start with

(02:13):
Attorney Mark Boguten, Mr Gallant, can you please tell us
how you're currently employed. I'm a private investigator at Silverman
Associates in New York. And can you tell us about
your professional background and prior experience before I was a
special agent of the FBI for twenty three years in
New York. And when did you retire from that position

(02:35):
end of and what unit were you assigned to when
you retired at the end of ninety nine? Special operations
and what is that about? What does that entail? Special
operations would be dealing with white collar and drugs and
organized crime, special investigations, undercover units, things like that. And
since retiring from the FBI, have you been employed as

(02:56):
a private investigator? Yes, and have there come a point
in time when you were attained by Ron Lieberman in
connection with I was retained by Mr Lieberman and his family.
Shortly after the nine eleven incident. He came to our
office and related a story that his wife had been missing.
He had done quite an extensive search he himself initiated,
but he wanted more. He wanted to expand the search

(03:17):
and gain more knowledge and police liaison to try and
determine the facts of where she was or what happened,
and any other information he could gather. And can you
tell us what did you do in connection with the investigation.
The first thing we did was Mr Lieberman had done
a lot himself with posters and talked to friends and everything.
The first thing we did was liaison with the police

(03:39):
and get a hold of her computer. And as the
investigation went on, we did an extensive search of her computer.
What we were basically looking for is we were trying
to recreate where she was. Secondly, we wanted to determine
if she had mentioned to anyone any intention she had
of leaving going anywhere, traveling anywhere. After that, we were

(04:00):
going to expand the circle as to her activities where
she could have gone, how she could have gotten there,
who she could have told, who she would have gone with.
So with this type of investigation in mind, we spoke
to coworkers, friends, family, bar room areas in the clubs
where she could have been. We determined that she was
last seen in the area of Century twenty one, which

(04:21):
is right where she lived. And we determined that we
could never place her any further than where she lived
in that six block area. She had no indication she
was going to go to any place. She had no
indication that she was going to travel. There was no
indication that there was any strife in her life other
than that, but that she had friends at work. I

(04:42):
spoke to people she worked with up there. They had
glowing reports about her. And I could not determine that
she was any place but near her home prior to that.
And how did you determine that she had been at
Century Century twenty one, the department store down there? How
to tape video security tape of snay hash shopping and
that was the night before I think it was early

(05:02):
evening on the tent and she was in there. On
the tape, she's with another girl. This is disputed, but
snay Haa had. On many occasions she would stay over
at friends houses because Ron was working and things like that,
so it was not unusual for her to not be home.
But the information I received was that she always would

(05:23):
come home early in the morning. Now here's Ellen Winner
the Guardian Adviteum, Mr Gallant, I understand that one of
the areas of investigation you or your company made was
to inquire whether she might have stayed at the Millennium
Hotel on the evening in question. Yeah, what was the
purpose of making that investigation. The purpose of that investigation

(05:45):
was we had placed her in Century twenty one shopping,
so we figured, well, if she came out of Century
twenty one, maybe she went across the street and went
into the bar room there, into the lounge and got
a drink. It was a warm evening, and why not.
So we went in there, we interviewed all of the
bartenders and showed her picture and it was just a
I'll tell you what. It was, a lead that was

(06:06):
in the area. It was a close lead, and that's
why I took it. When you say a close lead,
right next to Century twenty one. It was in the
area where she lived. I wanted to know if she
frequented that area, that hotel, which she did not. They
didn't remember her. I think I spoke to four bartenders,
and if anybody knows them, the bartenders would know. Did

(06:28):
you inquire about whether she had taken a room at
the hotel? Couldn't get that information. No, you inquired but
couldn't get an answer. When you were initially hired, was
your job to find her or was your job to
determine that she had died in the World Trade Center? Well,
when Mr Lieberman first came, there was no set belief
other than that they lived in the World Trade Center area.

(06:51):
He came home, she wasn't there. All her valuables were
in the apartment. So I don't know if you can
say that we started out with any preconception. Ster Lieberman
came and said, I've done this, I want to expand it.
I want to cover every base. I want to make
sure that every area is covered to find her. Something
happened to her, She's not here, Let's look into it.

(07:12):
I think we proceeded from that standpoint, not with any
preconceived notion as to what happened, And as far as
her staying at the hotel. I mean her apartment was
across the street. It was nearby, but not literally across
the street. So you know, I spoke to the bartenders
more than trying to determine if she took a room

(07:32):
or not. There was a history of she had a
history of some alcohol, significant alcohol use. Am I correct?
She is correct? I don't know if I would say that.
Do you know why she was fired from her previous job?
Issues with substance abuse and tardiness. With respect to the
computer search that you mentioned, as I read your reports,

(07:56):
there was a certain point that you went to in
the computer search and then and there was a possibility
for a further search being done. Yeah, And am I correct? Well,
was the second layer of the search done? The second look?
When you say, let me ask the question, go ahead,
what was searched? What wasn't searched in terms of the

(08:17):
possibilities here? Okay? What was searched were her emails? What
were her private conversations with people on this machine we
were looking for? Um, I spoke with my friend in
Italy and I'm going to go to Italy and paint
and I can't wait to get out of here. And
I'm not going to tell anybody we were looking for
something like that. We found nothing, no indication that she

(08:39):
was fed up with life in the area, her job,
her personal life, no indication of that, and no indication
of that with interviews with her family or anything like that.
I believe they were planning activities in the near future.
And this is just not indicative of an investigation of
somebody who's I'm going to plan activities. I'm not just
going to pick up in leave and then what further

(09:02):
searches could have been done? I'm trying to tax my
memory here. What further searches. We're talking about a computer.
You can do extensive searches on a computer. You know what,
I'm drawing a blank here. It was something that was
you know, I don't recall. Maybe Ron remembers what it was,
but it was not something. It was not a lead.

(09:24):
Let's say this. When we conducted this investigation, we went
from lead to lead to lead. That computer did not
give us any leads, and that's how we would do it.
We didn't get any leads out of that computer. Okay.
And then with respect to the century twenty one investigation,
my understanding is you spoke to a saleswoman who actually

(09:45):
remembers Miss Phillips shopping there. Yes, was it from the
saleswoman or from the film or from both that drew
your attention to the fact that there may have been
a companion. Actually, I think it was the sales girl.
I don't think it was the video. The video we
have Snayhaw in I think was a clothes rack. I

(10:05):
don't think that the girl was with her in the video.
We have a statement by witness Sonya Mora, the shoe
sales woman. I interviewed this girl and what first came out.
The girl said, oh, for sure, she was with this
other girl. Then I interviewed her. It's possible snay Ha
was with her. It's possible that she had met She's

(10:25):
a friendly girl, so it's possible that they had been
shopping together and became friends. Then I'm not sure. Goant
is positing that maybe snay Ha met a random woman
at Century one and they started shopping together, which okay,
I could never find that girl, and I don't think
we had video of that girl, which kind of because

(10:46):
I think the shopping in the dress area afterwards the
shoe area, and we don't have that girl with snay
shopping in that area. Were you able to obtain the
information about other customers who made purchases immediately before or
immediately after Miss Philip did? No. You said that it
was not uncommon for her to spend the evening away

(11:07):
and then she would generally come back the next morning.
Deltigue the attorney referee, And you said, you've got no
leads to show she was outside of her neighborhood. So
does that mean that all of the people that you
know of that she would have spent the night with
also lived in her neighborhood. She was friendly with a
couple of people at the hospital. She was really friendly with.

(11:28):
I believe with her brother's girlfriend or wife. She was
friendly with her. I think she lived in the area,
not too far. They all lived in the neighborhood. Her neighborhood, Yeah,
And I think there were a couple of clubs that
she had gone to at some point. We went up
there and they had not seen her. You said you
went up there, What do you mean, approached people, bartender's patrons.

(11:50):
No one had seen her. Where is up there? How
far away was it? Maybe what ten blocks? Maybe not
too far? I think there was a club's maybe Ron
and her had gone to or they had been to before.
Something no leads. And when you looked at her emails,
did you get to interview everybody who was a recipient

(12:10):
of her emails? It was mostly her family, mostly her family.
We interviewed everybody. Any name that we ever came across,
we interviewed. I don't think there was anyone who did
not want to talk to us. Nobody we couldn't find.
And you said she was planning future activities. Do you
remember what those activities were. I think it was a
wedding or something, a friend's wedding, some sort of function,

(12:34):
family function, and I know she'd been involved in that.
She talked about it, she was looking forward to it.
I don't know it was some family function. And then
earlier you talked about her i D and glasses and
things you would expect somebody to have would still be
in the area. Could you just elaborate on that a
bit got that from Mr Lieberman. Her glasses, her license.

(12:55):
I knew she couldn't see very well, so her glasses
were I think her apartment, her I D, the normal
things you would need to function outside were in her neighborhood.
In her apartment, I believe. Right. So you're saying that
she went out without her glasses and without her wallet. Yes,
actually I believed she used Ron's credit card to make
the purchase at Century twenty one. She didn't even have

(13:17):
her own. I d s she had his credit card.
Did she wear contact lenses? As far as you know,
I believe she did. Did you speak to the people
at Dr phillips new job on Staten Island? No? I
did not speak to them. No. NYPD Detective Richard Stark did. However,
on September two thousand one, Stark visited St. Vincent's Hospital

(13:41):
and interviewed Snayhouse boss Dr Susan Grossman. Grossman told Stark
that she last spoke to Snaya on September seven, two
thousand one, four days before nine eleven. Strangely and coincidentally,
Grossman's husband, Jeff gross is the co founder of a
Staten Island commune called Ghanas, which critics describe as a

(14:01):
sex cult. In two thousand six, according to The New
York Post, gross was allegedly shot by a woman who
claimed she had been forced to quote sleep with midgets
and engaged in lesbian sex. An X member told the
Post that the commune was quote a freaky mix of
weird characters, sexual shenanigans, prescription drug use, and hair brained psychology.

(14:21):
Grossman didn't respond to multiple interview requests. It's unclear Snay, however,
visited the commune. Grossman was her boss for only ten
weeks before nine eleven. There's also a comment and one
of the reports that the investigation revealed Dr Philip to
be a very complex woman. I'm quoting now quote a
very complex woman who appeared to present different characteristics as

(14:42):
a response to different people in situations. Could you explain
what you meant by that she was a complex person.
She could like at the hospital, she had all different
layers of friends. She could be very friendly with the
chief surgeon. On the same token she could be fighting
with one of her interns, and then she could be
friendly with the girl in medical records. This type of

(15:05):
thing that she wasn't like consistent. She would go out,
she would come home. I think that conversations with Ron
would say, you know, look here, look at her friends,
not just her intern friends, but someone else at work.
She was friendly with everyone. She wasn't in a set.
I only deal with this type of individual thing. She'll

(15:28):
be friendly with everybody, whereas the common thing was, I'm
a doctor, I'm going to hang around with my doctor friends.
I'm not going to be friends to this person who
works in the boiler room, this type of thing. But
she would babysit. I think that sometimes she watched doctor's
kids for a short while, which you know, this is

(15:48):
a a very not what you would imagine as a
doctor would be. Do you know how many people lived
in the buildings she lived in? How many apartments there were,
how many units? It's a big building, it's big. Yeah,
that's one down on we're talking Battery Park. So the
doorman couldn't positively identify her through that video, the video

(16:12):
of a woman exiting the lobby of Snayhouse apartment building
at three am on nine eleven, right before the attacks began. No, no, no,
And you said that she sometimes stated at her brother's
you didn't know if this is a friend, girlfriend or
wife at night. It was his brother's wife, girlfriend, just
whatever you know from your memory. I don't remember, okay.

(16:35):
And did she also live in the same neighborhood as that.
I believe she lived pretty close, did she? Yeah, you
don't know how close, and she didn't have any lead
as to where she might have been that night. No,

(17:14):
here again, it's Mark Bogatin, Ron Lieberman's attorney, And Ron,
when was the last time you saw sna It was
on the morning of September two and one. Now, before
we get to the events of September tenth and the
eleventh and their aftermath, I'd like to ask you there's
been a testimony, at least through the investigator from Mr Gallant,
that Snaya did not spend the evening of the tenth

(17:36):
at home in the apartment. Can you tell us did
say I ever spend an evening away from the apartment
before before the tenth And can you also tell us
whether or not there was any practice between the two
of you in terms of either you or her or
both of you spending an evening away from the apartment
on occasion. Yes. Since Snaiha and I met being at school,

(17:56):
we had a lot of friends together, and it was
even in Cargo. It was very common for us to
sleep over at friends house who lived in the area,
either together or sometimes separately. We all knew basically the
same amount of people, sometimes different people. Snayhan i'd lived together,
but also respected each other's independence too, And also so

(18:17):
when we came to New York, it was very similar,
like that, you made good friends sometimes instead of coming
home late, because we'd spend long times with our friends
we liked. Residency is tough. You really don't get out
very often, so when you actually get out, you want
to spend time with the people. These were all very
good people that we know, and sometimes Sna also, as

(18:39):
it's been said, she's an extrovert. She knew a lot
of people. She was an artist in her own right,
and sometimes she'd meet people who are artists also, And
there have been a few occasions where people that I
didn't know that she stayed out, But it was definitely
a common practice, maybe a couple of times a month
that either we'd stay out together or you might stay

(19:00):
out alone sometimes when I was at work. She didn't
like to stay home by herself a lot, so her
brother lived close by, her cousin lived close by. Friends
of ours lived close by, so it was very common
for her to go stay at their house. And the
two of you have the same work schedules. Say on yourself, no,
can you please describe her work? Schedule to me. Sure

(19:21):
snay was much more on a nine to five job
with occasional calls. She was an internal medicine resident. I
was an emergency medicine resident, and so sometimes that means
I'm working overnight. Quite often start maybe eight nine o'clock
at night, and I'll work through to the next morning.
So it was a very confusing schedule. I often got

(19:41):
my schedule in a couple of weeks before the preceding month,
so it was very difficult. I'd try to write down
for her so she could know, but she would always
get confused. I'd show up and she'd say, I thought
you were working tonight. It was confusing for me and
confusing for her. Also, when she stayed out, would she
tell you in advance that you'd be spending the night out. No,

(20:03):
sometimes it would just happen. This conflicts with what snay
House cousin Anu told Unsolved Mysteries in two thousand two.
She's never just spent a night out without informing us.
Where she is informing a husband with issues, It's never happened.
Why would this night be any different to me? The
discrepancy between what Ron testified to in court and what

(20:25):
an who told unsolved mysteries indicates that either snay House
family did not know her as well as they thought,
or they lied to the media. It was actually one
of our issues that I would always say, please leave
me a note, let me know where you're going to be.
And it was getting better, but sometimes she would still,
you know, she would forget. And did you stay out
sometimes by yourself or as you said, you would work

(20:47):
at night? I also would sometimes stay out by myself
at friends holmes. And when Snayha did stay out in fact,
how often would you say that she stayed out from
the apartment and spent the night outside of the apartment.
I would say at least a couple of times a month,
and that was regular practice through the course of the marriage. Yeah,
you've told us on occasion you and stay Hot together
would spend the night away from the apartment, maybe at

(21:09):
a friend's house. How often would that happen? I think
in about a month's time. Usually it's a few times,
if it's together or not, it would vary. Sometimes it
would be more than that too. So and when stay
how did spend the evening away from the apartment? What
was her practice in terms of returning to the apartment.
Always she had come back early in the morning, early
the next morning, sometime between seven and nine. That was

(21:33):
her usual pattern. Did she ever stay out and just
not come back the next day and come back a
day or two later? Did that ever happen? You mean
to be away for a couple of days. No, always
snay haw came back always the next morning, always the
next morning. Now, who are some of the people that
you've told us some of the people she did spend
the evening with, or rather would spend or have on occasion.

(21:56):
Can you please tell us who those people are? Her
brother lived Espec at the time when we lived in
Battery Park City. Her brother lived basically across the West
Side Highway, and her cousin lived on John Street. Those
were probably the more common people. We had another friend
who lived on the Upper west Side. And again, like
I said, there was definitely sometimes that she would meet

(22:18):
people that I didn't know, and she'd be out. How
would you learn that she'd been with this person if
you didn't know in advance, how would you learn it? Well,
obviously the next day she'd come back and I'd say,
snay haa, what happened? And she goes, oh, I didn't
know you were going to be home tonight, and I'd say, so,
where were you? She says. I remember one time she
met a woman who was an artist and they went

(22:40):
back to the place and actually painted all night. She
came back full of paint. Once in a while, that
would happen, or she would listen to bands playing all night.
Sometimes you mean a band and a club or something. Yeah,
there's a place a few bars close by we go to.
There's a bar. We'd go, laid back places, very casual.
Sometimes she would go and sometimes you'd go together, and

(23:01):
sometimes she'd come back and say she'd been at that
bar or that club. That's right now. How long had
you been married as of September ten two one at
that point, just about a year and a half. Can
you please describe for us the state of your relationship
at that point. Snay and I had been friends since
medical school. It was really an interesting connection between the
two of us. Our past family lives were very similar,

(23:24):
our interests were very similar. We're both artists. As much
as my wife is a painter and I'm a musician.
She's also a musician, so we play a lot. So
we were really great friends. We planned on having children together.
My wife was always talking about having babies, and if anything,
my reluctance was because I wanted to wait a little
bit to finish residency. In things you know, we had

(23:47):
planned to. We like to travel together. We take trips
together as well. We've been to India before together. We've
been to Europe together a few times. And even around
that time period, it was her birthday is October seven,
October seven, and so I was planning a trip to
take her to Europe around her birthday. I was going

(24:09):
to surprise her and I was going to talk to
her work about doing all these things also, so we
were extremely in love with each other and planning for
a great life. This is my wife's last year in residency,
and now all the hard work is finally going to
be finished and we could start to really spend a
lot of time together. So many times I'd go away

(24:31):
on call and we'd talk all the time on the phone.
It was difficult to be apart from each other, but
that was the residency. And when did her employement at
Cabrini end that When it was May of two thousand
and one, Well that was when she got noticed. She
actually continued working until our years, basically July to June.

(24:52):
So she worked until June and then she started her
new job in July. And what was her new job
that she started in July two thousand one. It's a
continuation of her old job. She was at St. Vincent's
Hospital on Staten Island. That was the reason we moved
down to Battery Park City so it could be closer
for her. She took the ferry to work, so it

(25:12):
was just a continuation. She was going to finish her
residency program at St. Vincent's. It was a very reputable hospital.
She liked the people there. What was her reaction to
her new employment. What was her state of mind at
the Staten Island Hospital. She loved it. She felt finally
she was in the place where she didn't have to
be judged. She liked Cabrini a lot in the beginning,

(25:32):
but it became difficult. There was so much prejudice against
her over there. Ron claimed that Cabrini discriminated against Naha
because she was Indian and a woman. Now you told
us you saw Snaha for the last time September, t
Can you tell us when on September ten and where
you saw her last? Tell us about that. We came

(25:52):
back from court that morning and we were with Mr
Freiburg snay How's attorney. It was a very quick proceeding.
We came back home, we had a little bit of
probably got home around ten ten thirty, had a little
bit of breakfast. That's ten thirty in the morning, Mr
Lieberman in the morning on September and I left for work.

(26:13):
I had to be at work by one o'clock and
I was taking the subway, so I left about eleven
thirty to give myself an hour and a half to
get there. So I kissed her goodbye. Actually I forgot
my keys and I got to go back in and
kissed her again, and then I left. And did you
tell you what our plans were for the day? Yeah?
You know, we've been so busy with work the last

(26:35):
few weeks before that, we really didn't have time to
clean the house. It was getting a little bit dirty.
So she was planning on cleaning the house that day.
We'd started the day before, but obviously it was the
weekend and we were rollerblading together and doing other things.
So she was going to clean the house and she
had just got in some orchids from Hawaii that she
was very excited about the day before, she had taken

(26:57):
a whole roll of film just take the orchids in
different positions, so she was very excited about it. And
then she I guess maybe taking a walk or something.
And was there any particular reason the apartment was going
to be clean at that point? Did you have any
plans Our friends are coming over the next day on
the eleventh. We had plans with Snayo's cousin Anu and Rick.

(27:19):
They were going to come over for dinner that night
on the eleventh, so we wanted to clean the house
that we could prepare for them to come. And you
tell us, nay How is not working that day? Is
that correct? And when she scheduled to work the next
day eleven she wasn't. Her next work day would have
been the twelfth, I think the twelve. And just tell

(27:40):
us when did you come home? You said you left
for work about eleven thirty on the morning of the tenth.
Did you speak to snay Hu during the course of
that day. I think I called her, but I don't
think we actually ever spoke that day. And when did
you come home on the tenth or the next day,
the eleven. When did you come home? Well, I came
home the evening of the tenth, at about eleven thirty
at night. And was she home, No, she wasn't. And

(28:03):
again when I came home and she wasn't home, I
was expecting her to come home soon. But then again,
I also knew her brother and her had been in
a fight maybe a week before, and I knew she
was off the next day, so I thought that maybe
she was over there talking with her brother. I didn't
want to call if they were in the middle of
talking and getting the way. And I had to wake

(28:24):
up very early the next morning. I had to be
at work by eight o'clock in the morning, so I
had to go to bed. I was thinking she'd probably
come back slip in bed with me at night, which
she'd done before. And And what time did you wake up?
On the eleventh? The next morning I woke up. I
think I woke up about six in the morning. I
needed to catch a six thirty subway. She wasn't there.

(28:47):
She wasn't there. I was, of course, I was concerned,
so I was thinking, in my mind, I wish she
would have called me to let me know, but this
is kind of part of our pattern also, it's something
in our relationship that we're working on for her to
be able to inform when she was going to stay out.
But again, it wasn't the first time, and I didn't

(29:07):
get overly concerned. I had figured that she'd be back
the next morning, and even once I got after all
the things happened, I actually called back to the home
to see if she was home, but there was just
the answering machine was on where were you in the
trade center attack took place. I was at the hospital
in the Bronx at Jacoby and tell us what happened

(29:30):
after that. So after we got word that the building
was hit, the hospital went into an emergency condition. And
actually I'm an emergency room physician, so that was really
when I was called to work. And in my mind,
I didn't think that Snayhow would have been involved, so
I figured she'd either be at a hospital or some
station helping out, like many of the other doctors down

(29:52):
in Manhattan were. So I stayed. I tried to call home.
At first. I was able to leave a message saying Snayha,
I don't know where you are, but call me at
the hospital and I left the number so she could call.
She always forgot my phone numbers, so I left it
on the machine, and then of course the phone lines
went dead. Then I had to make a decision what

(30:13):
I was going to do, And of course at that moment,
I said, I'm going to stay and I'm going to wait,
because we expected thousands of casualties to come so about
I think it was about three o'clock in the afternoon
when we realized nobody was coming up. Since from ten
o'clock to three we were preparing, but nobody was coming.

(30:34):
I told my director, I said, you know, I haven't
heard from my wife yet. I want to make sure
everything's okay. I just want to go back down home.
I didn't realize what state Lower Manhattan was in, so
I took an ambulance. They were going down in Manhattan,
and I went down with them. In the meantime, I
had my cell phone. I was trying to call people.
I think I talked to her mother about three four

(30:56):
o'clock in the afternoon. She hadn't heard from anyone yet.
It was only later that afternoon that I actually realized
that her mother hadn't spoken to her, And then it
slowly started coming about. We didn't know where she was
the night before because I think she had heard from
my brother in law John, who said that he wasn't

(31:18):
with Snayha. I started calling around and nobody knew where
she was the night before. I was concerned because I
didn't know. Like I said, it's happened before that she's
been in places where I didn't know, but it was concerning.
It took me about maybe six or seven hours to
get down to my apartment that day. It's a big
saga to get down to actually get down to Battery

(31:40):
Park City. When I finally got down to my apartment,
it was locked. They locked. About what time of the
day are we talking about? What time was this? It's
close to about I think somewhere between nine and ten
o'clock at night. I got down in Manhattan about five,
and it took me a good four or five hours
to get down there to my apartment. And what happened
when you got into the apartment. Were you able to

(32:02):
get in? No? I couldn't get in. The building was
locked and there was a light on the third floor.
One of the other tenants happened to be there. I
happened to have my pocket light from work, and I
was flashing them. They came to the window and I said,
can you please go knock my door to see if
anybody was inside. I was afraid that maybe my wife

(32:23):
was inside under the bed. Frightened. They knocked on the
door and said there's no response. And then at that
point I didn't know what to do, and so what
I did I went and volunteered. I went and volunteered
down across the street from ground zero at the high school.
I forget what it was called. And I stayed there

(32:43):
until about two in the morning, and then I went
back to my friend's house who lived in the West Village,
and I stayed there overnight. When did you eventually get
back to your apartment the next morning? Now we're talking
about the morning of the twelfth, The morning of the twelfth. Yeah.
Part of my feeling about going to volunteer was that
I knew I could actually get I realized how hard

(33:05):
it was to gain access down there. And when I
went to go volunteer, I was given a badge, and
the badge allowed me access to go back down. So
I went back down and I was able actually to
walk around very freely down there. I went right back
to my apartment and it was open this time, and
I went upstairs. I went to the apartment. When I
got to the apartment, the only thing I saw was

(33:26):
dust everywhere in the apartment. We had two little cats,
and the footprints from my cats. There were no other
footprints inside the house besides the cats. I had my
digital camera and I took pictures of the apartment. Now,
of course, I started getting worried. I was thinking, at
least by the night before, we would have heard from her.
So I started taking pictures of the apartment, and then

(33:47):
I started collecting things that were important. Phone books, her
phone book, my phone book, I had digital pictures of
snay Huh. My friends and I. Before I left, we
made a list of what to do. We felt we'd
make flyers be able to contact everybody. So that's basically
what I did. And did you inspect the apartment to
see whether anything was missing any of Snazz? Yeah. I

(34:09):
remember looking at the door to see if someone had
actually forced their way in. At this point, I started
thinking of everything. I tried to be as thorough as possible.
I took pictures of the door locked so I could
show people and there really was no sign. The apartment
was basically exactly the way I had seen it before
I left. Besides all the dust everywhere, was any of

(34:29):
Snaz's clothing missing, any of her belongings missing, nothing, nothing,
And again in retrospect, at this point, I didn't know
she'd gone to Century one. We learned that later in
the day. But there were no bags, no new bags,
no articles, no big bags from since or twenty one
that we're sitting in front of the house. Nothing was

(34:50):
changed at all. And at some point you look for
her passport and identification. Yeah. I was able to get
back down there again. I was in multiple times, and
at this point is when I started looking for signs.
Could she have left? Could something have happened? There were
no bags that were missing, her eyeglasses, as Mr Gallant said,

(35:11):
we're still in the house, her driver's license, her passport,
all her credit cards. The morning of the tenth, on
the way back from court, we went to the bank.
We stopped and took out a hundred dollars from the bank,
so we split it. And I remember that we've gone
to a party earlier that weekend, on Saturday night, and
she kept saying she was wearing her contacts that day,
and she said, you know, Ronnie, my contacts are very old.

(35:32):
They're hurting my eyes. On the way back from the
subway that night, she actually took the context out and
put them in her mouth because her eyes were hurting
and she was holding onto my arm as I was
basically leading her back to the apartment. And so that
day she must have been wearing her old contacts, because
again her glasses. We're at home. This may not seem important,

(35:57):
but it is. It's a clue. In the century twenty
one footage is not wearing glasses. Instead, it appears she's
wearing old contacts, the same contacts that bothered her so
much a few days earlier that she took them out
and saved them in her mouth. Now, unless she planned
to go somewhere after century one before she left her apartment,

(36:18):
why would she wear painful old contacts. Why wear them
to just go shopping? Unless she planned to go somewhere
to see someone after century unless she cared about how
she looked. So I think whatever Sneha did after century one,
she planned ahead of time. It was not spontaneous, making

(36:38):
it even more bizarre that the NYPD and private investigators
found no evidence of any plans, no emails, phone calls
to strangers, etcetera. The only people we know Snayha talked
to on the afternoon of the tenth, right before she
disappeared are her mom, Onto and maybe one or both
of her brothers, including her younger brother John, who lived

(37:01):
only a few blocks from Century. Anyway, back to on.
You know, once we started getting into the idea that
we couldn't find her is when we really started to
brainstorm every single possibility. Even though my wife and I
had a great relationship, we went through everything, every single
possible scenario. Could she have wanted to leave that I

(37:21):
didn't know about? So then we checked her backs. Could
there be someone that I didn't know about? So we
checked her letters, checked her emails, started talking to friends,
really good friends. I mean, I was very blunt and
I was very frank with everyone, saying, listen, if there's
anything we should know. Let's know she was seeing before

(37:42):
she left Cabrini and everything was going on, She started
seeing a therapist. I went to go talk to the therapist.
Any single idea that we could think of we tried.
There was a Marina at Battery Park City. We tried
to get a list of all the boats that left
Battery Park City. We put up flyers. We called everyone
that's Neahan new We called everyone to say, listen, do

(38:04):
you know someone That'snahan might know people who moved away,
People she was in college with, people she was in
high school, with people from medical school. We tried to
make every single contact we could, and then of course
we started going to shelters, putting flyers up in shelters,
contacting shelters, psychiatric institutions. Maybe we're thinking, maybe she saw

(38:24):
something that just damaged her mind. We didn't didn't know.
We started canvassing all the clubs, all the bars, everywhere
that we used to frequent, all the restaurants we used
to like to go to. Anything possible that we could
think of we started to do, including hiring a private investigator,
not ken go On. The first p I whose name

(38:47):
I don't know, Galant was the second. This is around
the same time the NYPD got involved. Also, we were
thinking could there have been foul play involved? They went
to talk to the most likely person would be the
person since they had the altercation with before the Cabrini
doctors Snay haw accused of sexual assault in June two
thousand one. They talked to him and they felt there

(39:09):
was no way that there was anything. This is also
a doctor who had not They felt that there was
nothing to it, and they went and searched their places
in Manhattan called the Tombs Jail that they were detaining people.
They went and searched those places, also saying there's no
listening of snay High in there. They checked police records

(39:30):
to report anybody missing at the time. They checked ambulance
records see if anyone had been missing at the time
that night. There was no instances of any crime at
all in Lower Manhattan. I tried to get a log
of all nine one calls placed in Lower Manhattan from
five pm on September tenth, two thousand one, until five

(39:50):
am on nine eleven. The NYPD denied my request, saying
the records no longer exists. Mr Philip, are you say

(40:23):
has brother? Yes, I am, And when was the last
time you saw her had contact with her? About two
and a half weeks before. This is one of three
conflicting answers John gave about when he last saw and
or spoke to snay Ha. You just heard him, say,
two and a half weeks before eleven, around August. But
on September two thousand one, John told n y p

(40:46):
D Detective Richard Stark that he last spoke to snay
Haa six weeks prior around August. And John told me
eight or nine days before nine eleven, around September two
or three August eight August, September two or third, three
different answers after she disappeared. Did you put a stake

(41:07):
in the effort by the family to find some trace
of her? Yes? I did. And can you tell us
what you did in connection with that effort, especially in
conjunction with the other friends and family members. Describe what
you went through and what you did. The first person
I contacted the following day twelve was Ron. Actually I
first contacted my mother. After that I contacted Ron. Ron
had put together a flyer and he had emailed it

(41:29):
to me. At that point, I went down to my
girlfriend's office on thirty fourth Street, where she worked, and
we made copies. I gathered together about at that point
six friends to meet me there. I gave them each
a stack of a hundred flyers, and they went out
to distribute flyers at that point, after I had given
them the flyers, I got on the phone. I started
calling friends, family members, I called cousins in the city,

(41:51):
asking if they had heard anything, and also asking them
for additional help as far as again displaying the flyers.
So the first day September twelve, we had a lot
of people going throughout New York, mainly towards Midtown, downtown,
the Village West Village, Union Square area, posting flyers the
whole day. From that point, I also we spoke with

(42:12):
the media to try and gain media coverage. Again, the
objective was to get her picture out there, to get
her face out there, to see if anybody had any
sort of answers, any idea of where she may be
or what may have happened to her, because again at
this point, we had no idea what may or may
not happen to her at that point directly after nine eleven,
so we were looking for clues after that point that week,

(42:33):
two weeks, three weeks consecutively. This is what I was
doing continuously, you know, to the point where I was
waking up every single day and my job was to
put up flyers. I dropped my I had a business
at the time I was running, I put that on hold.
I also had my employees who worked for me give
out the flyers as well. These flyers ended up from
what I understand to be all over the city. They

(42:55):
reached all of Manhattan, the Upper West Side, the Bronx,
Brooklyn Queens. So these are things I was doing. And
in addition to posting flyers, helping distribute flyers, did you
also have occasion as part of your efforts to find
some trace of her? Did you also go to clubs, restaurants, bars,
in places of that nature? Yes, I did, and can
you please tell us about that what you did in

(43:15):
terms of that effort, I would say approximately three or
four days after I was giving out the flyers, I
started focusing on going down to bars and clubs, mainly
in the East Village Alphabet City, Union Square area, places
that I thought she would hang out, places that I
thought she would be around. There wasn't a particular bar
or a particular lounge that I knew she would go,
but particular areas and scenes that she liked to be around.

(43:37):
She liked to be around more of an artistic scene,
more of both the West Village and Lower East Side,
the restaurants down there are the small lounges, the small cafes.
She enjoyed hanging out at those places. Had you been
to some of these places with her? Yes, I've been
to some of these places with her. One of those
places that I did go with her was a club
called Centerfly, which I think we may have gone to
two months prior to Night eleven. We had danced over there.

(44:00):
That was one club that I don't think she frequented
that club. Again, I don't remember her frequenting any particular club,
but that was the last one that I went to
with her. So I went to that particular one. I
talked to bartender's public doorman and yes, to answer your
specific question, and you had her picture, and you showed
her picture. I showed her picture. Yes, And the results
of all that was negative. I take it, excuse me.

(44:22):
What was the result of all those efforts negative? Nobody
had seen her, nobody had a lot of people didn't
even recognize her, and so yes, the efforts, unfortunately didn't
bring anything up. Bogatin wrapped up questioning John surprisingly Ellen
Winner The Guardian ad Vitam had no follow up questions.
Next up, snay House Mom onto tell us about your contact.

(44:45):
On Monday, September Monday, I was at work. I don't
know if I said high first or she did, because
I was online in the instant messenger. One of us
started chatting, you know, instant messaging, and she told me,
I just finished my meditation, and then she told me
all about Saturday night. She was a static, you know,

(45:05):
how great Ronnie was and about the party and how
happy she was. She was just so proud of Ronnie
and she was just so so happy. And then I said,
what are you doing today? And she said, Mom, you
saw my house. It's a mess. So I'm cleaning up
because we had invited Knew and Rick. Knew is her
cousin Knew and Rick for dinner tomorrow. So I'm cleaning

(45:29):
up the house. That's what I'm doing, she said. And
then she said, I'm reporting some plants, and she had
got some orchids from Hawaii and she was attending to
that and she was talking all about that, and we
chatted for almost an hour and then she said, Mom,
I better get back to my cleaning otherwise I won't
get anywhere. And that's all she said. And that was

(45:51):
the last contact you had with him. Yeah, that's the
last contact I had. Auntie testified that she were extremely close. Surprisingly, again,
Ellen Winner had no follow up questions, but Delty, the
attorney referee, did I just have one question. When you
chatted with her on the tenth on that Monday, September tenth,

(46:12):
did she give you any idea she would be going
out and what she was going to be doing that evening. No,
if she had any plans, she would have told me.
That's the way our relationship is, you know, we always
tell everything. You know, I tell her and she tell me.
We are like friends. So she would have told me, Mom,
I'm going shopping. You know, maybe I'm going to go

(46:34):
she would have told me. But I don't think she
planned to go out. I think she got tired of
cleaning the house reporting because when I went back to
her apartment later on, you could still see in the
bathtub she was repotting the plant. This is interesting, again,
like the contacts, it seems unimportant, and maybe it is.
Maybe it doesn't matter at all. But if any returned

(46:57):
to Ron and snay House apartment after nineal leven and
the orchid repotting soil was still in the bathtub, That
means Ron got home the night of after a long
day working at a hospital and didn't shower. It also
means Sna did not come back after century one and shower.
So two quick questions. Did Ron actually get home around

(47:19):
eleven pm? And did he stay the entire night in
the apartment? After Onto finished testifying? The evidentiary hearing ended,
but the court case was not over a few months later,
on September four, Detective Stark testified at a different hearing.
Here's Ellen Winner, the Guardian ad litem and Stark. Were

(47:43):
you aware that she had a drinking problem? Yes? And
were you aware that she had a drug problem? The
drugs I didn't know about that. There was a hint
of having a drug problem, but I had no proof.
There were no facts about that. Someone close to snay
Hawk confirmed to me that she did use drugs heavily.
Did you consider whether her disappearance and or death could

(48:04):
have been caused by excessive drinking or drugs or related activity.
In the beginning, it was considered just by you know,
she liked to go out and have a good time,
and she would drink, possibly all night long, and then
come home. That's why all the checks were done on
all the hospitals and the moors. Were you aware other
than Cabrini her termination at Cabrini? Were you aware of

(48:26):
any difficulties on her job at St. Vincent's? Yes, and
could you tell me what those were? She was seeing
a counselor, I believe, and she missed the session and
they put her on I guess they would consider it
modified on my job, it would be modified duty where
she couldn't practice medicine until further notice, until she saw

(48:47):
a counselor, I'm sorry, until she saw the counselor and
straightened everything out. And do you know what her counseling
was with regard to it was for alcohol and drugs.
Were you aware of any romantic or actual relationships that
Dr Philip had outside of her marriage that could have
been a cause for disappearance or unexplained behavior? Not any

(49:08):
one person. I was informed that she did have outside
marriage sexually, but there was no name put to that.
There was no regular romantic involvement, not with one person.
There was no name ever brought up of a certain person.
And did you have caused to investigate her in that regard, Yes,
just by talking to a brother and talking to a husband.

(49:30):
Ron is the one that informed me about it. And
what was your understanding of how she meant possible partners? Well,
it was from drinking, from being out in the bar.
And did you consider the possibility that a person who
she meant in such an encounter could have done her
ill and caused her death. No, there's no one person.

(49:53):
Detective Stark dismissed the idea of foul play, of kidnapping
or murder of a random, crazed killer. Nine eleven was
the likely answer, he said, but Judge Renee Roth did
not necessarily agree. After examining the facts and all the
testimony you just heard, she declined to expedite the issuance
of a death certificate certifying that Sneha died on nine

(50:16):
eleven at the trade center, noting that technically the case
was still active and there was no physical evidence supporting
the theory that Snea died during the attack, she wrote quote.
The testimony indicated that the absentee and petitioner were having
marital problems, and that she often stayed out all night
with individuals not known to her husband, whom she met

(50:38):
at various bars. The proof regarding other details of the
absentees life and personal relationships was often fragmented and even contradictory.
Detective Stark testified that in the course of his investigation,
he discovered that, in addition to the marital discord, the
absentee had alcohol and possibly drug abuse problems which appeared

(50:58):
to have interfered with her job performance. And Moreover, the
detective testified that at the time of her disappearance, the
absentee had been suspended from practicing at her current hospital, St.
Vincent's because she had failed to comply with the hospital's
requirement that she attend substance abuse counseling. Petitioner conceded that
Cabrini Hospital fired his wife, but he also claimed that

(51:21):
the real reason was not the claimed alcoholism, but was
instead racial and sexual bias against her by her co workers.
His testimony regarding the absentees subsequent residency at St. Vincent's
Hospital also diverged from the detectives in that Petitioner insisted
everything was going well there. Moreover, he failed to inform

(51:42):
the court about the counseling requirement, as well as the
fact that the absentee had been suspended because of her
non compliance, and there are additional disparities between the documentary
evidence and testimony with respect to the interactions between the
absentee and her husband that morning at court. According to
the police report, petitioner told the police that he and

(52:03):
the absentee had a quote big fight at the court
house because he was upset the absentee was abusing drugs
and alcohol and was conducting bisexual acts. The police report
indicates that the absentee stormed out of the court house,
leaving petitioner behind. On the other hand, at the hearing
in this court, the petitioner's description of that morning's events

(52:24):
was materially different from what he had told the police.
He said nothing about any argument and instead described only
harmonious interaction between himself and the absentee. Petitioner did, however,
admit that he and the absentee were having problems because
of her habit of staying away from home at night
without letting him know her whereabouts. As to the night

(52:46):
of September ten, He testified that he was not overly
concerned when she did not return home because that had
happened before and he expected her to come back in
the morning. He also said he thought she might have
been at her brother's house because she and her brother
had had an argument and he thought that she may
have gone there to try to patch things up. As
it turned out, her brother testified that their last contact

(53:08):
was about two and a half weeks before the absentee disappeared.
It is noted that the police report indicates that the
absentees brother told the police that he had argued with
the sister because he had found her and his girlfriend
in his apartment having sexual relations. The inconsistencies between what
petitioner told the police during the investigation, on the one hand,

(53:29):
and his testimony in this proceeding on the other hand,
materially undermine his credibility. As a consequence, he has failed
to develop a cohesive picture of the circumstances leading up
to the absentee's disappearance. We now turn to the relief requested.
The first question is whether there is clear and convincing
evidence to establish the absentee's exposure to specific peril. This

(53:53):
phrase specific peril is critical. Remember it specific peril, namely
the terrorist attack on September eleven two one. It is
observed that the record is devoid of anything to tie
the absentee to the vicinity of the World Trade Center
on September eleventh, two one, or to any other specific peril.

(54:15):
Nor is there anything in the record to explain why
this thirty one year old woman has not contacted her mother,
with whom the record establishes she had a close, loving relationship.
Although Detective Stark, in response to a question by petitioner's attorney,
suggested that the absentee could have returned to the area
of her apartment building and gone to help the victims
of the attack, his rank speculation has absolutely no foundation

(54:39):
in the record. We turn, for a moment to the
video shot several minutes before the attack of a woman
leaving the lobby of the building where the absentee lived.
This video was not produced in court, although Detective Stark
in his testimony said the woman was similar in height
to the absentee and both had straight, dark hair, the
absentees husban And and the private investigator he hired both

(55:02):
testified that they could not identify the blurred and professionally
enhanced image of the woman on the tape as the absentee.
As mentioned earlier, the latest police report indicates that the
case remains open, as do the questions about the absentee's
actions after she left the department store with her purchases
on the evening of September ten. The purchases themselves five

(55:25):
dollars worth of bed Linen's lingerie and shoes have never surfaced.
Although petitioner has not established that the absentee died as
a result of a specific peril, the court is satisfied
that sufficient proof has been submitted to establish that a
diligent but unproductive search for her was conducted, and that
death is the only logical explanation for her continued absence.

(55:49):
Judge Roth wrote off the idea that saying, how I
used nine eleven as cover to voluntarily disappear? Notwithstanding the
turmoil in her life, there is no indication that the
absentee was about to run away from her problems or
to abandon her hard earned profession. Furthermore, Petitioner and the
absentee's criminal attorney agreed that she was not particularly concerned

(56:11):
about the outcome of the false complaint charge, but believed
that at worst, she would be charged with a misdemeanor. Moreover,
it appears that it would not have been overly difficult
for her to rectify her problem with her current employer,
and her family was adamant that she would never have
just walked away from her hard earned career, Nor is

(56:32):
there any basis to believe that she would voluntarily fail
in all this time to contact her mother. If there
was one aspect of the absentee's life about which there
was consensus, it was that she was devoted to and
extremely protective of her mother. They visited each other frequently
and communicated either by phone or email almost daily. According

(56:53):
to everyone who knew the absentee, she would never choose
to cause her mother pain. In other words, if the
absentee were live, she would have contacted her mother by now.
Based on all the foregoing, the absentees death is fixed
as having occurred on September two thousand four, three years
after she disappeared. Next time on Missing on nine eleven,

(57:15):
I get asked by by Vicktens families, do I think,
as a scientist, are the remains buried at fresh kills?
And my answer is yes, absolutely, no specific homework this week,
but if you know anything, you can reach us by
phone at one eight three three new Tips. That's one
eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven

(57:39):
again one eight three, three, six, three nine, eight, four
seven seven, or you can reach us via email at
tips at iHeart media dot com. That's Tips, t I
p s at iHeart Media dot com. Ron Lieberman voice
by Seth Nicholas Johnson, Ken go Ont voiced by Matt Frederick,
Mark Bogutin voiced by Noel Brown. Ellen Winner voiced by

(58:02):
Holly Fry. Deltigue voiced by Tracy V. Wilson, Judge Rena
Roth voiced by Lauren Vogelbaum, John Phillip voiced by Taylor Chacogne,
I'm stop Phillip voiced by Indraw Dota Gupta. Detective Richard
Stark voiced by Ben Bolan and Mark Freiberg voiced by
Chris Brown. Ben Bowen is our executive producer, Paul Decan
is our supervising producer, Chris Brown is our assistant producer,

(58:25):
Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer. Sam T. Garden is
our research assistant, and I'm your host and executive producer
John Walzach. Cover art by Pam Peacock. Special thanks to
Tamika Campbell at I Heart and to Christoph Zappriy and
New Orleans. Archival audio from Unsolved Mysteries provided by Cosgrove
Mirror Productions. Also thank you to the staff of the
New York County Lawyers Association, the staff of the New

(58:48):
York County Circuits Court, and ASoP Rock. Original theme music
by ASoP Rock. Check out Asop's website at ASoP rock
dot com. You can find me on Twitter at at
John wallzac j O n w A l c z
a K. If you like this show, check out our
first season, Missing in Alaska, about the nineteen seventy two
disappearance of two congressmen. Missing on nine eleven is a

(59:11):
co production of I Heart Radio and Greenfork Media.