Bonus: The Disposable Camera

The FBI lost photos taken high in the towers on 9/11.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
From My Heart Radio. This is missing on nine eleven,
the story of one woman who vanished on the eve
of history and my quest to find her. I'm your host,
John Wallzac. This is the sound of the lobby of

(00:53):
two World Trade Center, the South Tower, captured on August
one by sound engineer Benchia Ben, a film and TV
veteran whose credits include The Wire, Fargo and The Big Lebowski,
made twenty recordings that day. They stand out as high
quality audio artifacts. None have ever been published until now.

(01:14):
Close your eyes, listen. You're in the lobby of the
World Trade Center. You're in an elevator. Only two weeks
before nine eleven. All right, m y y way. It

(02:47):
was the time when they have a tar event trying
to get thing. Only seventeen days later and again Darien
said that Will Trade said, yeah, you fellas have a
tree one here you set up to where the building?
Can you go to pay that because we have injured
all over the place. Okay, all right, thank you, very

(03:20):
sick Billy want lobby getting up in the lobby of
two lobby and Bill okay, okay, we have like the
every big in fact, we have vengeance. Go over and
building four uh, billy everyday air grating, body works. They're
having numerous people were broken light who was the blood?

(03:40):
They want to know where we would pretty game in
the buildings so they can bring everybody down two World
in the lobby, the lobby. Okay, okay, all right, friend.
This recording was made at AM. By that point, thousands
of victims have been evacuated away from the towers, out
of the danger zone. But there was a triage area

(04:01):
set up in the South Tower lobby for victims who
couldn't walk. What snayha, they're helping. It's possible, but unlikely anyway. Yeah,
I'm looking to find out. I'm a Ragius kid nurse.
I'm currently working right now and I wanted to help out.
I know they have a triage place set up at
West Chamber. Yes, is there anything else? Uh? You know,

(04:23):
any you know path I could take to get there
at the help? Um, what are they doing? And they
calling in nurses or what? I don't think they're not
calling in nurses and das in here, right and it's
realized I haven't Yeah, no, now they're not calling us.
Who the dators into the site? You needed to stay
at the hospitals through all hospitals or want a hospital. Yeah,

(04:46):
they cure. You're working right now at Bassol. I'm working
in a in a hospital right now. I was going
to uh go there. Okay. Now they want over the
docks and right now they want all the dassors and
notions to stay at the Bassole. Okay, okay, right. First
responders wanted people out, not in, even if they were

(05:06):
well intentioned doctors or nurses. One more tape AM a
call from the south tower lobby the emergency two World
Trade Center. We have injured people in the lobby of
the building. They need medical attention. They're on the south
side of the building. However, they're not gonna be able

(05:27):
to come in that way. They have to figure away
into it because we've got the bree all over the
outside of the building. Okay, okay, uh that's two World
Trade Center, right, that's correct, Two World Trade Center, okay, okay.

(05:51):
And they're on the south side of the lobby. Actually
have more than one occupant engine, but we have looks
like serious injuries. They got the guy sitting up on
a chair. I don't know how that happened, but Jerry
reported hold up the mn SO, hold on paper. That's wow. No,

(06:19):
I don't mean why we've got any and you in
the lobby. Yes, we all first floor Loop Street. It's
between Liberty Street and Church Street, the building and West Street. Well,

(06:51):
it's it's already a job, man, it's it's E. M.
S is not picking up. Okay, Well maybe you could
keep trying. I gave you my infrom and I kind
of gotta get gold. This was my job. Okay, Look,
we're sorry, Slarry, Bill, I S E. And what's the celephone?
Have you calling from? Seven? Okay? I supposed to be there. Okay,

(07:21):
you're welcome, bye, bye luck. Five minutes later, the tower collapsed.
Nine eleven may have been the most photographed event in history,
but nearly all footage was captured outside the towers. From inside,
we have nine one one calls, voicemail, dispatched tapes, oral histories,

(07:43):
and emails, but very few photos and videos. It's hard
to imagine now, but in two thousand one, no smartphones,
no social media. As it pertains to snay Ha. That's
critical because any image of her in the towers solves
this case. Surpri using Lee, there was no comprehensive list
of footage captured in the Towers on nine eleven, so

(08:05):
I made my own. In the end, I confirmed forty
five photos. Thirty three were taken by one man, John Labriola,
as he evacuated the North Tower, twelve were taken by
five other people, and two are unconfirmed. As for video,
we have dramatic footage from the North Tower captured by
French filmmaker Jewels not a plus one other short unconfirmed video.

(08:29):
So forty five confirmed photos, one confirmed video, to unconfirmed photos,
one unconfirmed video. That's it. The most complete account of
what it was like in the Towers on nine eleven
is a book called One and two Minutes by Jim
Dwyer and Kevin Flynn of the New York Times. It's
a remarkable work of narrative journalism. I read it twice.

(08:52):
Jim died last year. Kevin still works for the Times.
We focused on the floors that seem to have the
most substantial influence on the day, meaning the floors where
there are the planes that actually struck, and then the
floors above, and we split them up among the five reporters.
For example, I had the windows on the World, which

(09:12):
was the top of the of the North Tower, and
began to try to construct what had happened at Windows
on the World. I told you I located forty nine
photos and videos taken inside the towers during the attacks.
But there are two things I haven't told you. First,
at least one photo was taken out Windows on the

(09:33):
World on top of the North Tower, only fifteen minutes
before flight eleven hit the tower. It shows three men
at the risk Waters Financial Technology conference. It was taken
by a Bloomberg photographer who left right before the planehead
I don't know the photographer's name. Did they take any
other photos that morning, I don't know neither, just Kevin Flynn.

(09:54):
I never had the name of the photographer. Yeah, so
someone who took some pictures and then them developed. And
it may have been that Bloomberg just wanted to protect
the privacy of that person. Maybe they were upset about
having been there and escaped or whatever. But anyway, I
never got that name. Kevin and I also discussed snay
House case. The North Day footage is at least all

(10:17):
incompensing to the point where I think that she probably
would have reported in to the command desk had she arrived.
I mean, she sounds like she was a responsible person right,
And so I don't think she would just like have
freelance and gone up the stairs without talking to those people.
And I feel like she would have been captured on

(10:38):
camera in the North Tower. So I think that looking
for her in the South tower makes more sense because
there's no footage of the South tower. Basically Kevin saying
that if ran into the North Tower, she likely would
have gone to the lobby command center. Then day footage
gives us a good view of the North Tower lobby
and there's no sign of snay huh. So if she

(11:00):
in into the towers, it's likely she went to the
South tower. And there are zero photos and no video
taken in the South Tower lobby besides Labriola and the
nor Day Brothers. I don't think that there and there's
certainly some photographs from outside the building from taking from
the news photographers, but actually inside the building, I don't
think that there's much beyond that. Yeah, So I've been

(11:22):
able to document, well, the vast majority of what exists,
like you said, is the no Day Brothers and John
Labriola's photos. Past that, I've been able to document nine
other photographers and videographers, but all extremely limited many just
a single image from inside the building. From inside the building.
So I'm looking at it right now, and there are

(11:44):
three there's a videographer and two photographers. I haven't been
able to confirm, but what I have one picture from three,
from one from the one, five from to from the
sixty one, and then the Were you aware that the
FBI recovered a disposable camera at ground zero that included

(12:06):
images taken on the upper level of one of the
towers and developed the images after nine eleven. No, this
is the second thing I haven't told you. It's fascinated
me for eighteen years. Shortly after nine eleven, the FBI
located a disposable camera at ground zero in the pocket
of a man who jumped or fell from one of

(12:27):
the towers. No one I interviewed, authors, experts, curators knew
about these photos. I first heard about them in two
thousand three when I read a Baltimore Sun article by
Laura Sullivan profiling the FBI's Explosives Unit. Three paragraphs immediately
captivated me. I cut them out and saved them all
these years. Quote. There is one other piece of evidence

(12:50):
of the events leading to the collapse of the towers,
that few outside the unit. No of unit members found
a disposable camera and the pocket of a man who
jumped from one of the tower. When they developed the
film months later, investigators found a chilling chronology of the
man's experience that morning. The photos show the man, who
appears to be a construction worker, standing at the window

(13:11):
as the other tower burns behind him. The photos, which
include pictures he took as well it's a few taken
by someone else, also capture other jumpers falling. The man
looks stricken, his face one of shock and disbelief. His
family is aware of the photos, investigators said, but it's
not asked to see them. The units investigators were initially

(13:32):
confused by the film because the last pictures on the
roll show the man laughing among friends at a birthday party.
They took the film to a photo expert in the unit,
who explained that disposable camera film is developed in reverse.

(14:10):
Laura is now an award winning investigative journalist for NPR.
She wrote that article at the dawn of social media.
It was quickly forgotten, but it's stuck with me for
more than a decade. I've tried to get the photos
from the FBI. I failed, And I know what you're thinking,
Why do you need these photos? If they're graphic and upsetting,
If the man's family doesn't want to see them, why

(14:32):
should you to me? There there's a pruder film of
nine eleven, the only photos captured high in the towers,
presumably above the point of impact during the attacks before
the towers fell. Their singular and unique a point of view,
unlike any other documenting a monumental moment in American history.
There's an ethical debate to be had about which, if any,

(14:55):
should be published, but that's for a future date because
so far the FBI has refused to release them. In fact,
it appears the FBI lost the photos, raising critical questions
about how the bureau catalog and handled nine eleven evidence.
Since I filed multiple Foyer requests trying to get the photos,

(15:16):
every time the same answer no. First, the FBI said
it couldn't find any responsive records. Then it said that
I didn't reasonably describe them. I appealed the latest denial.
The Department of Justice denied my appeal. The d o
J said my request would quote require the FBI to
conduct an unreasonably burdensome search. Your request is not reasonably

(15:38):
described because you did not characterize the record SAW it
in such a way that they could be located without
individually pulling and reviewing thousands of files. End quote. That's
a crop of shit. We're talking about extremely unique, one
of a kind photos eleven evidence, but the FBI can't
find them without individually pulling and reviewing thousands of files.

(16:02):
So two possibilities here. Either the FBI is stonewalling or
the FBI lost them. Yes, lost. If I ask you
to find your car keys and you can't locate them
without digging through a thousand boxes, what would you call that?
Last year, I got fed up, so I emailed FBI
Director Christopher Ray. His office bounced me to the Public

(16:24):
Affairs office, which bounced me back to the FBI's in
transigent FOIA office. Here's what I wrote. Quote. I'm seeking
images developed from a disposable camera recovered as part of
a massive investigation of immense public interest. The images were
already shown to a reporter. I described them in detail.
They are extremely unique, and yet the FBI's response is

(16:45):
that the records SAW are not detailed enough to find
their location. How is that possible unless I'm missing something,
and I'm trying to give the bureau a fair chance
to respond here. I interpret that as either stonewalling my
request or that the bureaus system for story nine eleven
evidence is so disorganized it can't locate these images, in
which case, past these specific photos, this becomes a bigger story.

(17:09):
The FBI responded, quote, good afternoon. The records are not
detailed enough to find their location. As such, it would
be unduly burdensome to pull and review thousands of files, respectfully,
Public Information Officer, The FBI has consistently been a nightmare
to work with, and not just in this case. It's
been sued multiple times over its FOIA practices. Regardless of

(17:33):
your politics, you should care about this because nobody benefits
when the nation's premier law enforcement agency decides more or
less that it doesn't give a shit about FOIA requests.
To learn more about the disposable camera photos, I wrote
to Donald sac Laban in two thousand three. He was
the agent in charge of the FBI's explosives unit. He's

(17:53):
the person who showed the photos to Laura Sullivan, the
Baltimore Sun reporter. Sac Laban is now in prison in
twenty thirteen, he pleaded guilty to both child porn charges
and to leaking classified information. I mailed him a letter
in prison. He wrote back, quote, Mr Wallsac, I don't
think there's much I can add to your information about
those photos. As best I can recall, the film slash

(18:16):
camera was found at the w TC site and sent
to our lab for processing. I mentioned it in the
Baltimore Sun article, mostly because it was a unique item.
I do not recall the name of any person associated
with the camera. There were hundreds of thousands of photos
related to the nine eleven investigation. I imagine these images
are tucked away in some storage bin. Good luck with

(18:38):
your endeavors, sincerely, Donald suck Laban, I wrote again, pushing
for details. He responded, Dear Mr Wallzac, as you may know,
I'm currently serving a term of incarceration for disclosure of
national security information. While the items you seek may not
be classified, I still do not feel comfortable discussing them.

(18:59):
I the interview to the Baltimore Sun with the full
knowledge and authorization of the FBI. I no longer hold
that authority. Good luck with your endeavors, sincerely, Donald suck Lavin.
There was one final person to interview the only civilian
to ever see these photos. I'm Laura Sullivan. I'm a
correspondent with NPR. I started out as a print reporter

(19:23):
and one of my first real jobs in journalism was
as a two year intern at the Baltimore Sun, and
that turned into a real job at the Baltimore Sun,
which is where I was on nine eleven. I was
a reporter in Baltimore. So I was covering. This is
back in the heyday of newspapers, and we had all
kinds of resources, and there was actually a beat where

(19:45):
you covered the National Security Agency in the Naval Academy,
which were like our local agencies in that area of
our of the Baltimore Sun readers, and so that was
my beat, and I remember the morning sort of hearing
it on the radio. Actually, I mean as print reporters,
you know, we sort of started day late and ended
it late, and I remember jumping in my car and

(20:05):
sort of driving down to Annapolis, not really sure what
I was going to be covering at all. The next
day they sent me to Washington and I never left
after that, And so I started covering the Justice Department, Homeline,
Security Department, and all kinds of terrorism and the FBI.
And it was crazy. It was every single day for

(20:26):
for months and months and months. It just never ended.
And so you know that brings us to this this article.
So I email you out of the blue this year
and I say, I want to talk to you about
an article you wrote eighteen years ago. Did you kind
of just wonder like, what what is this? What is this?
It's like, oh my god, what did I possibly right?
What did I do? Now? Been some who? I mean,

(20:49):
you're just you're saying, oh god, it must have I
must have just done something crazy twenty years ago. So
on December one, two thousand three, you wrote this article
for The Sun headlined FBI team puts together pieces from
scenes of terror bombings. When I asked you about the article,
did you remember it immediately or did you have to
go dig around for it? I had a sudden flash

(21:12):
of being in the FBI's evidence area, and I thought,
I think there was some sort I did some sort
of story about the thing that came to my mind
when you said something about the camera was picturing Mohammed
addas suitcase. I don't know. I was like, I don't
really remember this story at all. I'm not sure I

(21:35):
remember too much about it, but I had a flash
of Mohammed out as suitcase, and I was like, I
think there was some sort of story. And then I
went and looked for it. I couldn't find it. It
was like I didn't know what the search for. I
was like Laura Sullivan's son camera, Like it was like
there was no way to even find the story. So
then thankfully you sent it to me, So then it

(21:56):
and then it came sort of rushing back. I don't remember,
you know, it's like you you just have little pieces.
You know, you've done thousands of stories, and I just
have little pieces of that. After I read the story,
I remember the room, I remember that suitcase. I don't
know why that left such an impression on me. I
think because it was like, you know, this it was
like brand new because I never made it onto the flight,

(22:18):
and you know, it just was so creepy. Here was
Mohammadada's suitcase. And then I remember him showing me the photos.
So walk me into that evidence bay. What was the
big cavernous warehouse? What? What do you remember of this?
The weirdest thing is I can't remember where I was
was I in Virginia. Was I in Maryland. I'm sure
I didn't get on a plane for this story. They
would have never paid for that. So it was somewhere

(22:40):
in the vicinity of d C. And I do remember
it took a long time to get these sort of
this sort of access to these interviews. But this was
my be, you know, covering the FBI. And I was
always asking to do features, especially when you're sort of
at the sun. You gotta fight against the big dogs
at the Times and the Post and and they're right,
always trampling all over your So the more features you do,

(23:02):
the more people you get to know. And so I
was always asking for things like this, And I was
always like taking random tours of things. Whenever they had
a tour, I was like, I'll go, and uh, you know,
blood Drive, I'll go. This is the kind of stuff
I did a lot of. And I remember it was
a giant room. It was very clean, and it was
very gray, that's my memory of it. I remember walking downstairs.
It was just like concrete and metal and big and

(23:27):
gray and open. And uh, I barely remember the the
guy Satchel Ben at all. And he comes across like
a really great character in my story. Sort of tragic
the way that ended. But then he just went through
the stuff. There was just piles of stuff, like like
plastic tubs, like labeled plastic tubs of stuff that they had,

(23:52):
which I found riveting, just sort of like the little
details of the day. And then I remember him showing
me these photographs, which really struck me. The photographs themselves
weren't that these were not professional photos. These were just
sort of like they they weren't in an of them.
It was like a man in sort of a beige

(24:12):
outfit standing by a window. That's like my memory of
these photos. I remember the birthday party thing too, but
it wasn't like a dramatic photo. It was just sort
of the emotional pull of them that they were taken
in this moment of just tragedy. And so I just
I don't know, they just always they that they resonated

(24:33):
with me. It's interesting because so I've read this article
when I was fifteen. I was on a Christmas vacation
with my family and I saw it in the newspaper.
I'm so impressed you were reading the newspaper fifteen. Can
I just say, well, that's what I was gonna say
it dates me too, because I actually cut it out
of the paper. Um, I still have it somewhere. And
then all these years later I had to go figure

(24:55):
out why I had these three paragraphs like who wrote this?
Where did this come from? You know? But uh, and
that that was the light reading I was doing around
Christmas in two thousand three. I mean, yeah, do you
were in some kind of a dark place like terrible thing?
It's stuck with me, I mean it. You know, all

(25:15):
these years, I've saved that little piece of paper, so
I wanted to talk to you more or less for
the last eighteen years. You know what I find so
frustrating and reading this article now is the sentence that
I wrote, apparently where I said his family is aware
of the photos but has not asked to see them.
I'm like, what, Like, I want to go back and
inquire more about that. What do you mean they don't

(25:36):
want to see them? Are you sure you've showed them?
How you sure you've talked to them? Who was this family?
I just I'm frustrated with myself that I didn't follow
up with that a little bit more like, you know,
I just took his word for when he said, well, well,
we let the family know that we had these, but
they have not asked to see that. I don't know.
I don't know why that. It's something about it doesn't

(25:56):
sit with me, right. You know, It's interesting all these
years I had to actually go back and find the articles,
so I didn't remember who wrote it. I just knew
I had this little piece of paper that described the
disposable camera. But I always wondered, like, why didn't this
reporter follow up? Like it's such a fascinating little tidbit.
It immediately captivated me. Um so that and then as
soon as I found out that you wrote the article,

(26:18):
and I'm like, oh, well, she went on to very
distinguished career where she had, you know, three three peabodies
and a lot of serious investigative work. That's why. That's
why she didn't follow up on the disposable camera. But
I think because I saw the photos, I think there
was kind of a sense of like, okay, I've seen them,
and you know that I remember them not being like

(26:39):
very The photos themselves were not the thing that was gripping,
you know. It was literally like a man in a
construction outfit or in something beige standing in front of
a window. It wasn't like he was like holding up
a sign saying goodbye to his family, or you know,
taking pictures of people huddled in a corner. It wasn't
like that. There was no there was no drama to

(27:00):
the actual photographs themselves. It's like he took a picture
of the building burning across the street. So like when
you would imagine, I guess you would do if you
didn't think you were necessarily going to die. But you
maybe we're getting sense. I don't. I'm just you know,
I'm just extrapolating like what he might have been thinking,
Like he had a camera on him, the building, his head,

(27:20):
he takes some photos and then things turn for the
worse for him. So maybe for that, I was like,
it wasn't the photos themselves, but that it captured this
moment that was his last moments that he didn't really
know when he was taking the photos were his last moments.
It's interesting though, because you say it doesn't capture anything dramatic,
but it's a high level view of one of the

(27:42):
towers burning, and you wrote in the article that it
also shows people falling out of the towers. So and
I don't remember that as well. But yeah, that's what
I must have seen, and they captured other jumpers falling.
He must have been taking a picture of the maybe
the jumpers and other building, or the jumpers in his
building falling. It's interesting because obviously I've told you I've

(28:06):
tried to obtain the photos for literally eleven eleven years now.
But even if obviously if I got them, I wouldn't
just immediately published some there's obviously a huge ethical question
of what to publish. But since I haven't seen them,
as far as I know, you're the only civilian who's
ever seen the photos. And I'll also tell you that
literally nobody knows they exist. So your article came out

(28:29):
at an interesting moment because it's right at the dawn
of social media and it's very hard to see that
detail escaping people today. But at the time, you know,
nobody remembers this article. You couldn't even find it, like
I had to go digging for it. And so like
I've interviewed Kevin Flynn, who co wrote a hundred in
two minutes, I interviewed the chief curator of the nine
eleven Museum. I've talked to authors zero people that I've

(28:52):
talked to are aware of these photos. And from my perspective,
what part of why it captivated me is because so
few photos and videos were captured in the towers on
nine eleven, that because it was this turning point in technology.
I actually went through and found every single photo and
video that I could, including confirmed, confirmed and unconfirmed photos
and videos, and it was less than fifty I think

(29:14):
it was forty nine. So these are are really presumably
you know, he died, so presumably taken above the point
of impact. So these are really unique view of a
monumental moment in American history that we've never seen before.
Taken high up in the towers. There's there's nothing like them. Um.
And I think when I read that, I mean, you've
seen the photos. But I think that when people learn

(29:36):
about these photos again, there's just going to be this
really strong, I don't want to say morbid curiosity, because
it's beyond it's beyond that, because it's such a different
point of view of history. What else do you remember
about them? That they were that I did not know
who it was, and he did not tell me, and
I already knew that I was like in a special
space and there was only so much I could push.

(29:59):
I definitely never knew who this camera belonged to, or
who or who or even who took the photo. I mean,
who you know? Is the birthday party the same thing.
There wasn't like a lot of clarity, and there wasn't
and there was still a real sense, I mean, this
was just two years after. There was a real sense
that this stuff was very private, that this belonged to

(30:19):
the grieving families of the victims, and that it was
not to be chased down, or that I was not
supposed to go knock on someone's door and say, why
don't you want to see these photos? Or did they
even know? Do you know these photos? It was like
I was lucky to be there in the first place,
looking at the toothbrushes of the hijackers. I mean, I mean,
where are the toothbrushes? I guess I you know. And

(30:40):
it's part of this doesn't surprise me at all, by
the way, because I'm working on this story that this
is not. That's about nine eleven, and the FBI cannot
find the only known video of the nine eleven hijackers
at an apartment party in the Los Angeles about nine
months before the attack. It is the only known video

(31:02):
of the hijackers. Multiple people saw it from the nine
eleven Commission, and they have lost it. They have lost
let me repeat this. They have lost the only video
of Hamsey and Midhar who win Los Angeles before the attacks.
And they no longer have any idea where this video is.
This video existed, it's it's it's in a footnote of

(31:25):
the nine eleven Commission. The nine eleven Commission. People saw it.
It was a real thing, and it is totally gone.
They have no idea where this thing is. I don't
know how you lose, like I mean, there's a lot
of evidence from this, I'll give them that, But like
disposable camera, they lost the video of the hijackers before

(31:45):
the attacks. So I don't know where this stuff goes.
I mean, I actually I do after all these years
of covering law enforcement, that somebody needs it for something else,
and then they put it in a different box, and
then somebody takes it home because they want to review
the evidence, and now it's in somebody's basement, and then
somebody dies and then they send it out to junk

(32:07):
or whatever. That's what happens to this stuff. It's interesting
because that's the other big issue here. So part of this,
part of what interests me is obviously the images themselves.
But yeah, I thought the same thing. I mean, I
didn't know that about the video obviously. That's that's that's
kind of incredible because I already scripted this episode. This
is the last piece of it before we put it together,
and that that's something that I raised. Two is just

(32:29):
how is this evidence stored? How is it cataloged? Like
I didn't know. I didn't know that about the video.
But even these images that I've always gotten to know
when I filed for a requests, which you know from
the FBI, doesn't surprise me. But uh, but the different
excuses every time, and the most recent was we wouldn't
be able to locate these without manually sorting through thousands
of files and thousands of boxes. And I hesitated to

(32:52):
use at first the word lost. But it's like I
I joke in the show, like if if I ask you,
you know, where are your car keys and you say, well,
I'm going to go search through three thousand boxes to
find them, like you lost them, They've got a lost. Well,
the other thing is those three thousand photographs. It's been
twenty years. They belong to the American public. These things

(33:13):
should be accessible, foilable, and open to public viewing. At
this point, there's not a lot of secrets that need
to be kept after nine eleven. And I guess I'm
obviously a journalist, but I just feel that this belongs
in the public sphere. And if there are thousands of
photographs from nine eleven, then we should be able to

(33:35):
see them and and people should be able to review
them for just this reason, so that we can track
down exactly what happened that day and what that experience
is was like, so that we don't forget it. Yeah. Absolutely,
And beyond these photos specifically, there's still so many unanswered
questions obviously about the hijackers, about possible foreign ties to
Saudi Arabia, about I was looking at the timeline of

(33:56):
the hijackers recently. I was just in Portland, Maine a
few months ago, and I've drove by the motel where
they stayed on September ten, and and and there's just
you know, there's still the quote, why were they in Portland?
Like there are auto was in Portland. There's so many
unanswered questions, Um, I agree with you. I'm working on
that right now. Well, I guess I'll ask you in

(34:20):
terms of the FBI. Obviously you have much more experience
working with this kind of stuff than I do, and
I want to be fair to the FBI. Am I
missing something or like I I? Like I said, I
hesitated to use the word lost, but I've tried for
eleven years and they've thrown a million different excuses at me,
and it just by their own admission, they can't find
these these images and you're telling me they can also
find a video that was cited in the nine eleven report.

(34:42):
Is there something I'm missing or is It's just like,
is there a Do you think that there's a bigger
systemic problem with how nine eleven evidence was cataloged and handled?
I think that's an excellent question, and I mean I do.
I wish I knew the answer to it. I'd say
the fact that there isn't just a very clear outline
of what there is and where it exists, then yeah,
there's a problem with how this evidence was handled over time.

(35:07):
It was a sprawling investigation. This was the largest investigation
and FBI history, and it's warehouses full of stuff. But
there's really no excuse for not knowing at this point
exactly what you have, where it is, and what it means.
So I'm sure you know the years that I've covered them.
This is a budget issue, this is a resources issue.

(35:30):
It takes people, take space, it takes you know, you've
got to rent these things, and there's sometimes there's not
always a will to keep all of that. And then
you also have to have somebody, I mean, you basically
need a library of people to organize it all and
put it into some kind of form that people can
can find it. But what I think is somewhat it's
very hard for them to defend is why there aren't copies.

(35:52):
There should have been copies of these photos. There should
have been copies of these video of the video, and
that I don't understand at all. Are you still trying
to obtain or find the video? Yeah, it's gone though,
it's gone, like they've pretty much acknowledged a and then
then the legal case that they're in right now that
they can't find it. Huh, Okay, Well, these photos in particular,

(36:17):
you know, like I said, nobody that I've talked to
knows about them. And from the point of history. I
guess I would ask you, would you want to see
them again if you had, if you had the opportunity,
I'm assuming the answer is yes, Yes, I definitely would
like to see them again, and I think the rest
of the public should see them too. I just hope

(36:38):
that all of this evidence is somewhere, you know. I
hope these photos and I hope their toothbrushes, and I
hope all of it has been kept somewhere, because while
it feels like it's just like a macabre like kind
of look into a tragedy that caused so much pain
to somebody, and it feels like you're just like stuck

(36:59):
in the details, it's in the details that that all
the information is. It's like I think, over time and
over the decades that passed like nine o leven will
become just this thing that happened in history, and it
you know, it's gonna end up like kids are gonna
watch it and you know, oversimplified years from now, and
it's just going to become this kind of this moment

(37:20):
that that isn't real anymore, and there's something in these
details and and actually looking at the belongings of the
hijackers and the belongings of the victims on that day
that make it real and that make people understand that
this was this horrific thing that our country endured and
is still dealing with twenty years later. And that's why

(37:42):
all of these things are so important, and we can't
lose them, and we need to make sure that they're
available so that people can see them because it brings
you back in such a real way. Homework one. If
you know the name of the Bloomberg photographer who left
window us on the world right before the attacks began,

(38:02):
please contact us too. If you work on the hill,
if you're a reporter, or if you're concerned citizen, fight
for Fourier reform, especially as it pertains to the FBI.
The bureau should be more transparent. It shouldn't be allowed
to indiscriminately trample over foil law with that bid excuses.
And if you're a National security or d o J reporter,

(38:23):
ask the FBI about how it handled catalog and stored
nine eleven evidence about why it can't locate specific unique
photos evidence without manually sorting through thousands of files. You
can reach us by phone at one eight three three
New tips that's one eight three three six, three, nine,
eight four seven seven again one eight three, three, six, three, nine,

(38:47):
eight four seven seven, or you can reach us via
email at tips at iHeart media dot com. That's tips,
t I p s at iHeart media dot com. Also,
we obtained unique, unpublished nine eleven an audio, which we
plan to share with you soon, so keep an eye
on our feed. Ben Bolan is our executive producer, Paul
Decan is our supervising producer, Chris Brown is our assistant producer,

(39:11):
Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer. Sam Ti Garden is
our research assistant, and I'm your host and executive producer
John Waalzac. Cover art by Pam Peacock, Donald Sockleman, voiced
by Ben Boland. Special thanks to Tamika Campbell at I
Heeart and to Christoph Zapary in New Orleans. Also thank
you to Ben Chia, Kevin Flynn, Laura Sullivan, and ASoP Rock.

(39:32):
I highly recommend Kevin's book one hundred and two Minutes,
The Unforgettable Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the
Twin Towers. Original theme music by ASoP Rock. Check out
a SOOPS website at ASoP rock dot com. If you
like this show, check out our first season, Missig in Alaska,
about the nineteen seventy two disappearance of two congressmen missing

(39:52):
on nine eleven. Is a co production of I Heart
Radio and Greenfork Media