37 years ago, Trump returned from a trip to Moscow obsessed that America wasn’t getting paid enough for protecting its allies, that our leaders weren’t tough enough, and that America’s economy was destined to self-destruct within the next four years. And he never stopped. Why would a self-obsessed New York real estate developer suddenly care about America’s international politics?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And I think people look at certain people and maybe
me if that if I were in a position this
country believed me would not be ripped off like it is,
and it is just being ripped off so badly by
our so called allies.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yeah, so that's a pretty strong statement. So now are you.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Saying it's strong? I think it's fair. The country is
losing billions and billions of dollars to Japan and we
can't afford to lose and it's a shame.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
But so now are you saying this by way of
indicating that you could do it better? And you do
intend to run for president or something.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm not going to run for president, but I think somebody.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Now in eight years if you came back, would you
have a different answer in four years.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I tend to doubt it. I really tend to doubt it.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she I served in
the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover
all around the world.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I
served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Although we don't usually look at it this way, we
created conspiracies.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
In our operations we got people to believe things that
weren't true.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the
news almost every day.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Will break them down for you to determine whether they
could be real or whether we're being manipulated.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Welcome to mission implausible. I guess we can't avoid it
as members of the deep state. At some point we
have to talk about the view out there that Donald
Trump has a special relationship with Russia. And in fact,
he's exercised a real degree of self control with respect
to Russia that he doesn't show with anything else. And
(01:29):
so there's always been a concern out there that he
must have some sort of special relationships. Some people say
that he's a Russian agent. I've actually written about that.
Adam's actually written about that. So we're going to talk
to some folks today get a little bit better sense.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Of that idea.
Speaker 6 (01:42):
Yeah, is this a suspicion or is this a conspiracy theory?
His National security advisor JR. McMasters famously wrote in his
book recently that, like he said, they've got something on Trump,
the Russians. I just don't know what it is.
Speaker 7 (01:57):
We talk all the time about ow erratic Trump can
be how crazy he can seem, but then there are
these moments of control where clearly he knows what the
lines are and he can't deviate from them. And it's
not any of the lines we see in art. Don't
send a mob to attack the Capitol. I mean, even
just read the teleprompter, do the messaging that won't alienate
(02:21):
every woman in America, and he can't do it. He
literally seems incapable. But it is fascinating how there is
this one area where he has shown incredible message discipline.
And it's hard not to notice that we're not wild
conspiracy theorists. Professionally, that's not our thing, So we're not
(02:41):
going to come to any conclusions we don't have evidence for.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yeah, I try to be really careful about this because
having served in Russia and worked against Russian intelligence for
the better part of my career, I never talked to
journalists at all, and I never was public at all.
But it was when this popped up that's so called
Steele Dusty in twenty sixteen is the first time I
ever went on TV and then I started to write
about it, and so I try to be really careful
(03:05):
about it. If there's people who would know better than
I do. For example, when FBI Acting Director Andrew McCabe
was asked if President Trump might be an asset of
Russian intelligence, he actually answered, I think it's possible, which
is crazy.
Speaker 6 (03:17):
There's no smoking gun, we have no proof, But I
think we can explore what the suspicions are or what
the concerns are, and as counterintelligence officers, I think we
can take a hard look at this from a counter
intelligence point of view as opposed to a law enforcement
you know, beyond a reasonable doubt optic.
Speaker 7 (03:36):
The thing that I think a lot of people don't
realize is generally, especially Department of Defense, a Department of Justice,
but also almost any prosecutor, they really want a case
with close to one hundred percent chance of successful prosecution.
They are not taking an eighty percent chance of prosecution case.
Certainly not a sixty percent chance of prosecution case. But
(03:57):
in our day to day life, if there's an eighty
percent chance your spouse is cheating on you, or a
sixty percent chance that your business partner just embezzled all
the money, you're not going to be like, well, I'm
not doing anything about it until I get one hundred percent.
And that's what I understand is you guys in the
spy game, you live in a world of sixty percent
or sometimes thirty percent or twenty percent, and.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
The chance of knowing the one hundred percent is almost
impossible because it's locked up in a safe in Lublanca somewhere,
And so the chance you're ever going to get that thing,
you have to make informed guesses, look at patterns, because,
like you said, if some things could be potentially more
damaging than finding one hundred percent answer, And.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
It's about consequences. So if there's only a five percent
chance that someone is a counterintelligence threat, so five percent
chance that this person is or could be working with
a foreign power, you still wouldn't put them in like
the CIA's Secret of Secrets. So you know, you talk
about sixty percent or eighty percent when it comes to
(05:00):
counter intelligence issues, it's more than just a preponderance of evidence.
Speaker 7 (05:05):
Are we giving this guy a security clearance?
Speaker 6 (05:08):
Which that for me would be the bottom line.
Speaker 7 (05:10):
Yeah, because when you're giving someone a security clearance, if
there's a four percent chance or certainly a twenty percent
chance that person is a Russian agent, you're not going
to say, ah, it's fine, right, if.
Speaker 6 (05:22):
You needed a quart of milk, the store is a
mile away. And I tell you there's a one in
one hundred chance your car is going to blow up.
Are you going to take a bicycle or your car?
What if it's one in a thousand, What if it's
one in a million?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
To turn it away to a little bit differently, some
people have looked at Donald Trump's business practices, in fact Adam's,
and it's interesting because Russia really is you could argue
call it a blackmail state. It's a corrupt place, it's
a gangster's way of governance, and Russians call it the systema.
There's very few real legal systems in Russia that can't
be overthrown by the leadership. And instead, it's like this
(05:57):
power network where everyone's looking for leverage it via in
committing information on everyone else, and your goal is to
collect material so you can destroy your rivals, but you
never actually know what anybody else has, and so it's
sort of like this mutual assured destruction. And that's how
the system works over there, and frankly, that's how Donald
Trump has done business for his career. So there's an
interesting parallel between sort of the Russian system and his system,
(06:19):
and that plays into this too.
Speaker 7 (06:21):
So this was exactly what I was trying to figure out.
Here's what I wrote in The New Yorker a few
years ago in SYSTEMA, the former Soviet Union system of compromot.
When faced with uncertainty, every member knows that the best
move is to maintain whatever alliances you have and to
avoid grand steps that could antagonize powerful figures. Trump has
(06:43):
made a lot of money doing deals with business people
from the former Soviet Union, and at least some of
these deals bear many of the warning signs of money
laundering and other financial crimes. Deals in Toronto, Panama, New York,
and Miami involved money from sources in the former Soviet
Union who hid their identities through shell companies and exhibited
(07:04):
other indications of money laundering. The scenario that to my mind,
makes the most sense of the given facts and requires
the fewest fantastical leaps, is that fifteen years or so ago, Trump, naive,
covetous and struggling for cash, may have laundered money for
a business partner from the former Soviet Union or engaged
in some other financial crime. This placed him unawares squarely
(07:27):
within the compromont system of the former Soviet Union, where
he remained conducting business with other members of a handful
of overlapping Central Asian networks. Had he never sought the presidency,
he may never have had to come to terms with
these decisions. But now he is much like everyone else
in the former Soviet Union system. He fears there is
(07:48):
compromant out there, maybe a lot of it, but he
doesn't know precisely what it is, who has it, or
what might set them off.
Speaker 8 (07:57):
It's really degrees and you know, we would mule you
out for counterintelligence reasons if people have leverage over you,
to include like family things right that you have no
control over. If your wife's family lives in a country
that might try to blackmail her cousin, we probably wouldn't
take you where. And even though you're just firing.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Or if you had convictions, you wouldn't get work to
have convictions.
Speaker 8 (08:21):
So it's about leverage and not is he a spy
or is any It's not a binary black and white sink, which.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Brings us to our first guest.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
So today we have Philip Arswald. He's an economist, author
and professor at George Mason shar School of Policy and Government.
We wish to speak with him about his article published
in The Hill entitled Trump's NATO hostility and Russia Relations
trace back to nineteen eighty seven, Philip, since so many
people believe Trump's ties to Russia are a hoax or
(08:50):
a liberal conspiracy, can you give us a short overview
of the article.
Speaker 9 (08:54):
I really look at it as just starting back at
the really the beginning of the story of Donald Trump's
relationships with at that time Soviets, but also just the
beginning of his political career. And it's a fair question
to ask when did his political career start? So it
turns out that question has a very clear answer. And
(09:15):
the date that Donald Trump's political career begins is September second,
nineteen eighty seven. What happens on that date two things. One,
Donald Trump takes out full page ads in the New
York Times, the Washington Post, and the Boston Globe at
a cost of roughly one hundred thousand dollars then two
hundred and fifty thousand dollars in today's terms, at a
time when his business mentors are starting to lose money.
(09:36):
What does the ad say? The ad says literally the
headline there's nothing wrong with America's foreign defense policy that
a little backbone can cure, and the subtitle is an
open letter from Donald Trump on why America should stop
paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves.
So what's the theme? We're being taken for suckers. Our
allies are the problem, not our enemies. They're not paying
(09:59):
for are their own defents, and if they're not going
to do that, we shouldn't pay for them. Obviously, this
is a familiar theme. The other thing that happens is
that Donald Trump appears on Larry King Live. And the
very first question that Larry King asked him is Donald,
are you a Republican?
Speaker 10 (10:18):
Are you a Republican?
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Donald, I'm a Republican.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Yes.
Speaker 10 (10:21):
So if there were politics, it would be as a Republican.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
It would be I guess as a Republican. But I
don't see that there will be pro politics.
Speaker 10 (10:28):
Why they add then, why now?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Well, it was very easy. I was tired, and I
think a lot of people are tired of watching other
countries ripping off the United States. This is a great country.
They laugh at us behind our backs, they laugh at
us because of our own stupidity and the leaders.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
I mean, what we have.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
We have a Persian golf situation. You saw what happened today.
Billions and billions of dollars of being spent when getting
oil for Japan, and they're not paying anything for it. Essentially,
they're paying nothing for it. We have tankers going back
and forth that our men are protecting, losing their lives.
I mean, they're losing their lives, Larry. We're spending billions
and billions of protection and those tankers are going over
(11:05):
to Japan. It's just preposterous. I watched the Kuwaiti oil
minister the other day laughing as he was explaining how
much money they intend to make with the Bridgeton, which
has been a total disaster the Bridgeton, and I said
to myself, isn't that a shame? He's talking about how
much money they're going to make and here we are,
he's smiling and laughing. Why don't we get some of it?
(11:26):
Why is it that we're protecting? We have frogmen, we
have helicopters, we have aircraft carriers and all sorts of
ships all over the Persian Gulf, so that this man
and his little group can make a lot of money.
I think it's ridiculous. Japan is one of the wealthiest
machines ever created. They're laughing to themselves, Larry, as to
what's happening in this country.
Speaker 10 (11:44):
Are we going to be hearing more from mister Trump
on issues like this as we go along?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I really don't know, Larry. This is an issue that's
been bothering me. It's been bothering a lot of people
that I know, the concept of America financing and paying
and losing lives for countries that won't even allow us
to use their ships. And these are the countries that
in twenty four hours they'd be wiped off the face
of the earth if it weren't for America. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 9 (12:10):
And then they talk about an invitation that he has
received to speak in New Hampshire in October at the
start of primary season.
Speaker 10 (12:19):
Is it true that you're going to go to New
Hampshire in October at the invitation of Mike Dunbar, who's
heading a group called Draft Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Well, I was asked about three or four weeks ago
whether or not by a very good friend of mine,
whether or not I'd go to New Hampshire. That's turned
out to be now a much bigger deal than I
had ever anticipated. And perhaps I don't know I am going.
I've made the commitment to go. I made the commitment
about three weeks ago, and I will go.
Speaker 10 (12:41):
Yes, you will go, even though you realize now in
just setting foot in that state, people are going to
presume things.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Well, they can presume whatever they want. I have no
intention of running for president, but I'd like the point
to get across that we have a great country, but
it's not going to be great for long. If we're
going to continue to lose two hundred billion dollars a year,
you're going to get into the early nineties, nineteen ninety,
nineteen ninety one, and the whole thing's gonna blow because
this country cannot continue to support Japan and Saudi Arabia
(13:07):
and Kuwait and many other countries that are much wealthier
than we are. We're not a wealthy country. You can't
be a wealthy country when you're losing the kind of
money that we'll lose. It's going to be so bad
that people will never I really believe this could be
much much worse, unfortunately than recession. This could be the
step beyond. I hate to use the word depression, but
if we don't solve the two hundred billion a year loss,
(13:30):
which is exactly what we have, this country is going
to have some very very serious problem in the early
nineteen nineties.
Speaker 10 (13:37):
One other thing, could the next presidency be a one
term presidency? Because of that?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
I think the next president of the United States could
have some very, very very serious problems. It's going to
be I think a very difficult It's going to be
a very difficult presidency because of the problems that we're
talking about right now.
Speaker 10 (13:52):
And you don't want it to be Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
I do not want it to be Donald Trump, but
I do want the problem to be solve.
Speaker 9 (13:57):
Larry So before that in the eighties, I would say
eighty four eighty five, he's interviewed. People say you should
be a politician. He says, yeah, no, that does really
interest me. September second, nineteen eighty seven is his coming
out day. It's an orchestrated coming out day and he
uses exactly the same language now that he did that.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
We'll be back in just a moment.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Let's get back into it.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
But also I think you mentioned that it's tied to Russia.
He had just this is just following a number of
trips to Russia, among other things.
Speaker 9 (14:35):
So go back two months, A couple of other things happen.
One is that he travels to Moscow at the invitation
of in tourists. It is the official Soviet travel agency,
and it's in an operational arm of the KGB, and
that's not in dispute. That's just what it was. So essentially,
(14:56):
at the invitation of de facto the KGB, he traveled
to Moscow. But in nineteen ninety, when he's interviewed by Playboy,
he actually describes this trip.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Here's our friend comedian Rob Cordory reading some excerpts from
Donald Trump's interview with Playboy magazine in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 11 (15:15):
There, I am up in my plane when my pilot
announces we are now flying over the Soviet Union, and
I'm thinking to myself, what the hell am I doing here?
Then I look out the window I see two Russian
fighter planes. I later found out guiding us in. I
had insisted on having two Russian colonels flying with me.
(15:38):
I felt safer. I told them, guys, we have a
basic problem far as real estate is concerned. It's impossible
to get title to Russian land since the government owns
it all. What kind of financing are you going to
get on a building with a land is owned by
the goddamn motherland. They said, no problem, mister Trump, we
(16:02):
will work out Lise agreements. I said, I want ownership,
not Lesa's. They came up with a solution, mister Trump.
We form a committee with ten people, of which seven
are Russian and three are your representatives, and all disputes
will be resolved in this manner. I thought to myself, shit,
(16:23):
seven to three are we dealing in the world of
the make believe?
Speaker 12 (16:27):
Here?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
What?
Speaker 9 (16:30):
Surprisingly, because there has been quite a bit written about
this trip. Zero people have reported that he registered as
a Republican three days before taking the trip, And so
when you look at the content of that ad, it
is an ad whose message is that US allies and
alliances are not to be trusted. The intention is to
(16:52):
undermine the confidence of the American people in our allies
and alliances, and that becomes the focal point because comes NATO.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
So I think it's fair to say, because there's some
other authors have looked into this a little bit. Craig
Unger is one. There's a number They've written number of
books about Donald Trump's interest in Russia and how his
talking points seem to change around this time, but they
do seem to be Russian talking points. You talked about
the nineteen ninety interview and Playboy. One of the things
he's doing in that interview is he's suggesting that the
(17:23):
hardliners and Soviet Union. You know, Gorbachev is not being
tough enough. Trump is supporting the hardliners. The fact that
these ideas are really out of the mainstream of American policy.
That the odd notion that Gorbachev's not being tough enough
and he should keep country together. From a real estate builder,
it just seemed very odd.
Speaker 11 (17:39):
Russia is out of control and the leadership knows it.
That's my problem with Gorbachev not a firm enough hand.
When the students poured into Tianamen Square, the Chinese government
almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible.
If they put it down with strength, that shows you
(18:02):
the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived
as weak as being spit on by the rest of
the world. Generally, these guys are much tougher and smarter
than our representatives. We have people in this country just
as smart, but unfortunately they're not elected officials. We're still
suffering from a loss of respect that goes back to
(18:23):
the Carter administration when helicopters were crashing into one another
and Iran. Some of our presidents have been incredible jerk offs.
We need to be tough. I don't want the presidency.
I'm going to help a lot of people with my foundation,
and for me, the grass isn't always greener.
Speaker 9 (18:43):
Okay, So first of all, where's the conspiracy. What's implausible?
You guys are Mission Applausbus.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
What's impossible.
Speaker 9 (18:50):
What's going to be implausible is the hotel deal. That's implausible.
It's a pretext. That's my assertion that the hotel deal
was a pretext, and furthermore that it was there was
a pretext agreed upon prior to his trip. I don't
believe this story about the hotel. I don't believe it.
There are three intervals of Trump talking about Soviets in
(19:13):
the nineteen eighties. In the first interval, nineteen eighty four
eighty five, Trump is obsessed with negotiating a nuclear arms
deal with the Soviets. Where does he get this idea?
He gets this idea apparently from his uncle, really based
(19:34):
from his childhood. After November nineteen eighty five, he never
talks about that again. Never he's on Letterman.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
You know, at the beginning of the show, I said
you either love him or you hate him. Now do
you find that that's true? Or does everybody love you
or does everybody hate you?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Now? Most people love me and a few really have
great dis stays to him.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Huh.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And why is it those people that few would not
care for you because you're so successful to.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
No, Oh, I don't think so. It's just I sort
of speak my mind a little bit a little bit
like you in that respect, a little bit like.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
A little bit like me, not too much, hopefully. And
what about the are people trying to draft you to
run for a president up in New Hampshire?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Well, I guess a lot of people want to see
this country. Yeah, it's it's a shame what's happening. Japan,
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, They're all everybody's taken advantage of the
United States. People know that if certain people are running
a country, that it won't happen. I mean when you
look at Japan not paying for the defense. We're defending Japan.
We're losing billions and billions of dollars and it's a shame.
And the Japanese folks, who I respect greatly, but they're
(20:36):
they're not treating us fairly. They're really not treating us
fairly Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, They're not paying us anything for
the services we're rendering it. I think it's a disgrace.
And I think people look at certain people and maybe
me if that if I were in a position this
country believed me would not be ripped off like it is,
and it is just being ripped off so badly by
our so called allies.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
So, so that that's a pretty strong statement.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
So now are you say it gets strong? I think
it's fair. And by the way, I have tremendous respect
for the Japanese I have. I do a lot of
business with the Japanese, and they smile about it too.
They know it. The country is losing billions and billions
of dollars to Japan and we can't afford to lose
and it's a shame.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
But so now are you saying this by way of
indicating that you could do it better? And you do
intend to run for president.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I'm not going to run for president, but I think somebody.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
In eight years, if you came back, would you have
a different answer in four years.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I tend to doubt it. I really tend to doubt it.
Speaker 9 (21:27):
You ask when did Donald Trump's national political career begin.
There's a single answer, September second, nineteen eighty seven. What
made him do the things he did on that day?
We have to think what happened before and after it.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
So this makes him vulnerable.
Speaker 9 (21:40):
It makes in vulnerable because he demands to be taken seriously.
He is in a weak psychological position, because he is
a fundamentally needy person from the Russian Soviet side. It's
obvious that they take him seriously. They fly him in
a private jet or escort his own private jet through
(22:01):
Soviet airspace, accompanied in the cabin by two Russian colonels
and actually winged by Soviet Air Force. He spends a
quarter million dollars of his own money publishing an ad
in Then Airtimes, Washington Post, Boston Globe that is very
clearly aligned and in the service of KGB talking points.
At that time, he keeps going Oprah.
Speaker 13 (22:23):
You took out a full page ad in major US
newspapers last year criticizing US foreign policy. What would you
do differently.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Down I'd make our allies forgetting about the enemies, the
enemies you can't talk to so easily.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
I'd make our allies pay their fair share.
Speaker 6 (22:36):
We're a debtor nation.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Something's going to happen over the next number of years
with this country because you can't keep going on losing
two hundred billion, and yet we let Japan come in
and dump everything right into our markets and everything. It's
not free trade. If you ever go to Japan right
now and try to sell something, forget about it. Open,
just forget about it. It's almost impossible.
Speaker 9 (22:55):
She speaks at Lehigh University in June nineteen eighty eight,
a year and a half after the trip, and to
these poor graduates captive there, he says, forget about our
enemies Russia. We don't deal with them that much.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
This is a tremendous honor for me. I guess in
a lot of ways. My wife is sitting right over here.
She just became an American citizen. And that's Savannah. The
other night of Honna and I had dinner with Abe Rosenthal,
who headed and did such an incredible job at the
(23:31):
New York Times and gay Talise the writer, and they
used an expression which I thought was fantastic. It was
the feeling of supremacy that this country had in the
nineteen fifties. It was a feeling of supremacy. It really was.
I've known that since the Vietnam War and even a
little bit before, this country hasn't had the feeling of supremacy.
(23:52):
And what's happening is Japan and Saudi Arabia and Kuwait
and so many countries are just ripping off American left
and right and down the middle like nobody. I mean,
not our enemies. Forget about our enemies Russia. We don't
deal with them that much, et cetera, et cetera. These countries,
our friends, are making billions and billions of dollars and
(24:15):
stripping us of our dignity, our economic dignity. We're a
deator nation, we're a poor nation. And it's ridiculous what's happening.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
And we'll be right back, and we're back.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
But what we haven't discussed here is a whole nother
big part of this is the character of the Russian
security services.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
So there's a.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Guy by the name of Armond Hammer. If people older
people might remember Armand Hammer. He was an industrialist in
the nineteen sixties occidental oil. He was the Donald Trump
of the nineteen fifties and sixties, and he was the
one guy who could deal with the Soviet Union right.
And he was a philanthropist and loved by many administrations.
(25:02):
And it didn't come out until twenty or thirty years
afterwards that he was very likely, almost certainly a spy
for the Russians. Spy meaning he was an agent of
Russian of Soviet interests, and he was dealing with the
Russians in a way that he was keeping secret from
the US and that was benefiting the Russians. There was
(25:23):
a quid pro quo there, and so the Russians that's
the way they operate.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
And Philip said it, well, is the fact that they're
going to pay attention to them and they're going to
give them what he thinks he needs to try to
develop relationship with him. And we've all learned about Donald Trump.
It's attention and saying nice things about him. In one
of the books, Uri Schwetz is a KGB officer who
defected to the United States. He's head of Trump quote.
This guy is not a complicated cookie as most important
(25:49):
characteristics being low intellect coupled with hyperinflated vanity. This combination
makes him a dream for an experienced recruiter.
Speaker 9 (25:57):
Now, since you brought up Armenhammer, I will note one
thing because fit in the timeline, Trump serves on a
Reagan appointed panel with Armenhammer eighty forty five, and he
goes to a gala event hosted by Armenhammer in November
nineteen eighty five, exactly the time that I'm talking about.
Armenhammer builds a one hundred and fifty million dollar luxury
(26:17):
hotel and conference center in Moscow that opens, I believe
in nineteen eighty Philip.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
Let's go forward to twenty fifteen, just for a second.
Donald Trump is now running for president. Yeah, he says
I have no business interests, and he says this over
and over in different ways. I have no business interests
in Russia. And so back to the hotel. It turns
out afterwards that on twenty eight October twenty fifteen, he
signed a non binding letter of intent to build Trump
(26:46):
Tower Moscow. The Russians know he's lying to the American people.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
Trump knows.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
The only people who don't is the American people. That's compromat, right,
So his relationship with the Russians is fairly deep.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
If you are lying to the American people about something
and the Russians know you're a lying to the American
people about that gives them not copra, but some sort
of leverage. And also you have this long history behind him. Yes,
he can feel like he's totally one of the boys.
We're intelligence officers. We try to recruit people. We use
whatever it takes. It might be, you know, finding out
(27:23):
whether you're upset with your boss. It might be that
you need something for your kid. It might need that
you need medical help, but it might be you just
want ego boost.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
The conspiracy theory version of this is that he is
an agent, a source, a paid source of the of
the Russians, right, that they're the puppet master.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
It doesn't never be paid.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
But what I think is it's clear to me as
an intelligence officer, is that he has a relationship with
the Russians that he's not sharing with the American people.
Speaker 9 (27:50):
So I agree with you, he lies, but I don't
care that he lies. In twenty fifteen, because he's been
lying for until twenty eight years by then.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Right with what you're saying, is this stuff happened a
long time ago. It wasn't like we need to look
at twenty fifteen or what happened then to think that
he could be compromised. He was compromised thirty years before.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
I think we're on board with that. Yeah, as a possibility.
Speaker 9 (28:09):
Sure, let me let's read a line from the Playboy interview.
Speaker 14 (28:13):
Here's Rob Kudry again, reading from the Playboy interview with
Donald Trump from March first, nineteen ninety.
Speaker 11 (28:21):
Playboy, Why is Gorbachev not firm enough? I predict he'll
be overthrown because he's shown extraordinary weakness suddenly for the
first time ever. There are coal miner strikes and brush
fires everywhere, which will ultimately lead to.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
A violent revolution.
Speaker 11 (28:39):
Yet Gorbachev is getting credit for being a wonderful leader,
and we should continue to give him credit because he's
destroying the Soviet Union. But his giving an inch is
going to end up costing him and all his friends
what they.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Most cherish their jobs.
Speaker 9 (28:57):
At that time, Gorbachev's position was still fairly strong. This
was extremely ahead of the curve assertion by Trump that
Gorbachev was going to be overthrown, and sure enough VLADIMIRU Kushkoff,
who's the head of the KGB. Khrushkoff is one of
the organizers of the coup that happens eighteen months after
(29:20):
this interview, the failed coup. And this is not the
only time he does this. He also predicts that Yeltsin
will be ousted, and he does this during his Reform
Party run also on Larry King Live, and the same
thing happens in twenty ten, twenty eleven, except then his
coming out as a SEAPAC conference, and every single time
(29:42):
when you'd listen to this Larry King Live interview in
nineteen ninety nine, every single time he returns to the
same themes. Our allies are ripping us off, We're being
played for suckers. The world is laughing at us. We
can't trust NATO. Every single time he reappears as a
political figure.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
But there are many the countries and taking tremendous advantage
of this, including NATO. If you look at the payments
that we're making to NATO, they're totally disproportioned with everybody
else's and it's ridiculous. We don't have any money. We're
going this country is busted, and it's busted because we're
doing things that we shouldn't be doing.
Speaker 9 (30:15):
There's only one thing that Donald Trump has done consistently
for the last thirty seven years. He's had different wives,
he's had different business interests. He was on TV really
after Trump Tower. He never builds anything of significant. The
only thing that is consistent is his viewpoint on United
States allies and alliances and the fact that this is
(30:36):
a failing country. American Carnage, Central Park five. There's two
things that KGB active measures were intended to do in
the United States and Western Europe. Undermine confidence in the
institutions of Western democracy, undermine support for our defensive alliances,
(30:57):
in particular NATO.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
You're saying that the relationship with the Russians, and it
started as the Soviets, has been consistent, and he's been
in some fashion aligned with them, whether he's fed talking
points or whatever it is. And the things we've seen
lately that are troubling and people have called compromund and
other things are simply a means of deflecting and trying
(31:20):
to and denying and trying to protect that relationship.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
There's also that the relationship that the Muller Report touches on,
it doesn't touch on. It goes like over two hundred
pages into is not just a relationship between Donald Trump,
but also the relationship between Trump World. Right, let me
cite the Mola report says it does not establish a conspiracy,
but that does not mean there is no evidence of
(31:44):
this fact.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
It makes it very clear that Jared Kushner don junior
man of Fort all met with Russians, not just Donald Trump.
And the reason this wasn't criminal, at least as far
as the Muller Report goes, was they couldn't prove that
they were witting, that they understood that they were involved
in a criminal conspiracy. They couldn't stablish motive.
Speaker 9 (32:09):
The only thing that's consistent in Donald Trump's life is
his articulation of almost the same talking points verbatim about NATO.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
And also, if it didn't come from this relationship and
his travels of Russia, where did it come from? Why
would a builder in New York be obsessed with NATO
and what they're paying? Thank you so much, Philip, Thank
you very much, Philip.
Speaker 9 (32:30):
Thank you guys.
Speaker 13 (32:32):
This sounds like political presidential talk. To me, And I
know people have talked to you about whether or not
you want to run.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
Would you ever?
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Probably not, But I do get tired of seeing the
country report.
Speaker 13 (32:43):
Why would you not?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I just don't think I really have the inclination to
do it.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
I love what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I really like it also doesn't pay as well, but
you know, I just.
Speaker 6 (32:53):
Probably wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
I probably wouldn't, but I do get tired of seeing
what's happening with this country, and if it got so bad,
I would never want to rule it out totally because
I really am tired of seeing what's happening with this country,
how we're really making other people live like kings.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
And we're not to continue our analysis. We're going to
talk again with our old friend Peter Struck.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
He's a former deputy Assistant director of the FBI's Conrad
Intelligence Division, and he led the investigation into the Russian
interference in the twenty sixteen the United States elections, as
well as the investigation into Hillary Clinton's use of a
personal email server. He's now an author, writer, speaker, and
podcaster who hosts the popular podcast clean Up on Aisle
forty five, and he's a good friend of ours.
Speaker 12 (33:34):
Welcome, Peter, Hey, John, Hey, Jerry. Great to be ready, Peter.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I'll get right into it. I was one of our
recent guests believes there is evidence that Donald Trump engage
in a relationship with Russian intelligence in the nineteen eighties
and since the nineteen eighties. He bases it on the
timing of his trips to Russia and Trump's subsequent actions
at the time. Can you explain what this would mean
to professional investigators, if anything. Are there circumstances where an
(33:58):
individual would be investigated on these kind of issues and
what would it take for that kind of investigation to start?
Speaker 12 (34:04):
Yeah, Well, should answer is I think that's probably a reach. Look,
what's important to remember is, you know, the FBI is
both it's interesting and unique in some ways, and that
it's both a member of the US intelligence community. At
the same time, it's a criminal law enforcement entity and
conducts investigations into violations of law. But what's interesting for
the FBI at least, and part of what I found
(34:25):
so fascinating working there, is it's also an intelligence organization.
Right it is the lead counterintelligence agency in the United States.
And what that means for your listeners is far beyond
just looking at an allegation of a violation of crime.
It's also charged with responding to all these nations around
the world that are doing intelligence activities within the United States.
(34:48):
And so when it comes to Russia, it's the FBI's
job to respond to that. And so when the government
of Russia, when Vladimir Putin, when the presidential authority says
we need or want to do these things, they will
leverage and call on all their intell agencies when they
come to operate in the United States. The FBI tries,
working with the rest of the intelligence community, tries to
(35:09):
understand what they're doing and prevent that make it harder
for them to do that. And if we're good at it,
manipulate that it is not at all surprising. Indeed, the
Russians would be negligent to not go out and try
and look at and understand as much as they could
movers and shakers in America. And so would it surprise
me at all if Donald Trump is a businessman in
(35:31):
the seventies and the eighties travel to Moscow or had
Soviet than Russian businessmen or private citizens coming in and
wanting to invest in his real estate or casinos there
anywhere else. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Would the Russians
try and look at that information that they obtained to say, Hey,
who is this person? How can we leverage him now
(35:54):
or even ten, twenty thirty years in the future, because
they as well, or if not better than the US.
We'll play the long game, right because maybe in ten
years that person is suddenly a prominent real estate mogul.
Maybe in twenty years that person's president of the United States.
Speaker 14 (36:10):
We're gonna stop here for today. There's a lot to
cover on this subject. So this is a two parter.
We'll pick this up on the next episode of Mission Implausible.
Speaker 15 (36:22):
Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Cipher,
and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission
Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures
for iHeart Podcasts.
And I think people look at certain people and maybe
me if that if I were in a position this
country believed me would not be ripped off like it is,
and it is just being ripped off so badly by
our so called allies.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yeah, so that's a pretty strong statement. So now are you.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Saying it's strong? I think it's fair. The country is
losing billions and billions of dollars to Japan and we
can't afford to lose and it's a shame.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
But so now are you saying this by way of
indicating that you could do it better? And you do
intend to run for president or something.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm not going to run for president, but I think somebody.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Now in eight years if you came back, would you
have a different answer in four years.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I tend to doubt it. I really tend to doubt it.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she I served in
the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover
all around the world.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I
served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Although we don't usually look at it this way, we
created conspiracies.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
In our operations we got people to believe things that
weren't true.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the
news almost every day.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Will break them down for you to determine whether they
could be real or whether we're being manipulated.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Welcome to mission implausible. I guess we can't avoid it
as members of the deep state. At some point we
have to talk about the view out there that Donald
Trump has a special relationship with Russia. And in fact,
he's exercised a real degree of self control with respect
to Russia that he doesn't show with anything else. And
(01:29):
so there's always been a concern out there that he
must have some sort of special relationships. Some people say
that he's a Russian agent. I've actually written about that.
Adam's actually written about that. So we're going to talk
to some folks today get a little bit better sense.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Of that idea.
Speaker 6 (01:42):
Yeah, is this a suspicion or is this a conspiracy theory?
His National security advisor JR. McMasters famously wrote in his
book recently that, like he said, they've got something on Trump,
the Russians. I just don't know what it is.
Speaker 7 (01:57):
We talk all the time about ow erratic Trump can
be how crazy he can seem, but then there are
these moments of control where clearly he knows what the
lines are and he can't deviate from them. And it's
not any of the lines we see in art. Don't
send a mob to attack the Capitol. I mean, even
just read the teleprompter, do the messaging that won't alienate
(02:21):
every woman in America, and he can't do it. He
literally seems incapable. But it is fascinating how there is
this one area where he has shown incredible message discipline.
And it's hard not to notice that we're not wild
conspiracy theorists. Professionally, that's not our thing, So we're not
(02:41):
going to come to any conclusions we don't have evidence for.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yeah, I try to be really careful about this because
having served in Russia and worked against Russian intelligence for
the better part of my career, I never talked to
journalists at all, and I never was public at all.
But it was when this popped up that's so called
Steele Dusty in twenty sixteen is the first time I
ever went on TV and then I started to write
about it, and so I try to be really careful
(03:05):
about it. If there's people who would know better than
I do. For example, when FBI Acting Director Andrew McCabe
was asked if President Trump might be an asset of
Russian intelligence, he actually answered, I think it's possible, which
is crazy.
Speaker 6 (03:17):
There's no smoking gun, we have no proof, But I
think we can explore what the suspicions are or what
the concerns are, and as counterintelligence officers, I think we
can take a hard look at this from a counter
intelligence point of view as opposed to a law enforcement
you know, beyond a reasonable doubt optic.
Speaker 7 (03:36):
The thing that I think a lot of people don't
realize is generally, especially Department of Defense, a Department of Justice,
but also almost any prosecutor, they really want a case
with close to one hundred percent chance of successful prosecution.
They are not taking an eighty percent chance of prosecution case.
Certainly not a sixty percent chance of prosecution case. But
(03:57):
in our day to day life, if there's an eighty
percent chance your spouse is cheating on you, or a
sixty percent chance that your business partner just embezzled all
the money, you're not going to be like, well, I'm
not doing anything about it until I get one hundred percent.
And that's what I understand is you guys in the
spy game, you live in a world of sixty percent
or sometimes thirty percent or twenty percent, and.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
The chance of knowing the one hundred percent is almost
impossible because it's locked up in a safe in Lublanca somewhere,
And so the chance you're ever going to get that thing,
you have to make informed guesses, look at patterns, because,
like you said, if some things could be potentially more
damaging than finding one hundred percent answer, And.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
It's about consequences. So if there's only a five percent
chance that someone is a counterintelligence threat, so five percent
chance that this person is or could be working with
a foreign power, you still wouldn't put them in like
the CIA's Secret of Secrets. So you know, you talk
about sixty percent or eighty percent when it comes to
(05:00):
counter intelligence issues, it's more than just a preponderance of evidence.
Speaker 7 (05:05):
Are we giving this guy a security clearance?
Speaker 6 (05:08):
Which that for me would be the bottom line.
Speaker 7 (05:10):
Yeah, because when you're giving someone a security clearance, if
there's a four percent chance or certainly a twenty percent
chance that person is a Russian agent, you're not going
to say, ah, it's fine, right, if.
Speaker 6 (05:22):
You needed a quart of milk, the store is a
mile away. And I tell you there's a one in
one hundred chance your car is going to blow up.
Are you going to take a bicycle or your car?
What if it's one in a thousand, What if it's
one in a million?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
To turn it away to a little bit differently, some
people have looked at Donald Trump's business practices, in fact Adam's,
and it's interesting because Russia really is you could argue
call it a blackmail state. It's a corrupt place, it's
a gangster's way of governance, and Russians call it the systema.
There's very few real legal systems in Russia that can't
be overthrown by the leadership. And instead, it's like this
(05:57):
power network where everyone's looking for leverage it via in
committing information on everyone else, and your goal is to
collect material so you can destroy your rivals, but you
never actually know what anybody else has, and so it's
sort of like this mutual assured destruction. And that's how
the system works over there, and frankly, that's how Donald
Trump has done business for his career. So there's an
interesting parallel between sort of the Russian system and his system,
(06:19):
and that plays into this too.
Speaker 7 (06:21):
So this was exactly what I was trying to figure out.
Here's what I wrote in The New Yorker a few
years ago in SYSTEMA, the former Soviet Union system of compromot.
When faced with uncertainty, every member knows that the best
move is to maintain whatever alliances you have and to
avoid grand steps that could antagonize powerful figures. Trump has
(06:43):
made a lot of money doing deals with business people
from the former Soviet Union, and at least some of
these deals bear many of the warning signs of money
laundering and other financial crimes. Deals in Toronto, Panama, New York,
and Miami involved money from sources in the former Soviet
Union who hid their identities through shell companies and exhibited
(07:04):
other indications of money laundering. The scenario that to my mind,
makes the most sense of the given facts and requires
the fewest fantastical leaps, is that fifteen years or so ago, Trump, naive,
covetous and struggling for cash, may have laundered money for
a business partner from the former Soviet Union or engaged
in some other financial crime. This placed him unawares squarely
(07:27):
within the compromont system of the former Soviet Union, where
he remained conducting business with other members of a handful
of overlapping Central Asian networks. Had he never sought the presidency,
he may never have had to come to terms with
these decisions. But now he is much like everyone else
in the former Soviet Union system. He fears there is
(07:48):
compromant out there, maybe a lot of it, but he
doesn't know precisely what it is, who has it, or
what might set them off.
Speaker 8 (07:57):
It's really degrees and you know, we would mule you
out for counterintelligence reasons if people have leverage over you,
to include like family things right that you have no
control over. If your wife's family lives in a country
that might try to blackmail her cousin, we probably wouldn't
take you where. And even though you're just firing.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Or if you had convictions, you wouldn't get work to
have convictions.
Speaker 8 (08:21):
So it's about leverage and not is he a spy
or is any It's not a binary black and white sink, which.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Brings us to our first guest.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
So today we have Philip Arswald. He's an economist, author
and professor at George Mason shar School of Policy and Government.
We wish to speak with him about his article published
in The Hill entitled Trump's NATO hostility and Russia Relations
trace back to nineteen eighty seven, Philip, since so many
people believe Trump's ties to Russia are a hoax or
(08:50):
a liberal conspiracy, can you give us a short overview
of the article.
Speaker 9 (08:54):
I really look at it as just starting back at
the really the beginning of the story of Donald Trump's
relationships with at that time Soviets, but also just the
beginning of his political career. And it's a fair question
to ask when did his political career start? So it
turns out that question has a very clear answer. And
(09:15):
the date that Donald Trump's political career begins is September second,
nineteen eighty seven. What happens on that date two things. One,
Donald Trump takes out full page ads in the New
York Times, the Washington Post, and the Boston Globe at
a cost of roughly one hundred thousand dollars then two
hundred and fifty thousand dollars in today's terms, at a
time when his business mentors are starting to lose money.
(09:36):
What does the ad say? The ad says literally the
headline there's nothing wrong with America's foreign defense policy that
a little backbone can cure, and the subtitle is an
open letter from Donald Trump on why America should stop
paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves.
So what's the theme? We're being taken for suckers. Our
allies are the problem, not our enemies. They're not paying
(09:59):
for are their own defents, and if they're not going
to do that, we shouldn't pay for them. Obviously, this
is a familiar theme. The other thing that happens is
that Donald Trump appears on Larry King Live. And the
very first question that Larry King asked him is Donald,
are you a Republican?
Speaker 10 (10:18):
Are you a Republican?
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Donald, I'm a Republican.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Yes.
Speaker 10 (10:21):
So if there were politics, it would be as a Republican.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
It would be I guess as a Republican. But I
don't see that there will be pro politics.
Speaker 10 (10:28):
Why they add then, why now?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Well, it was very easy. I was tired, and I
think a lot of people are tired of watching other
countries ripping off the United States. This is a great country.
They laugh at us behind our backs, they laugh at
us because of our own stupidity and the leaders.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
I mean, what we have.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
We have a Persian golf situation. You saw what happened today.
Billions and billions of dollars of being spent when getting
oil for Japan, and they're not paying anything for it. Essentially,
they're paying nothing for it. We have tankers going back
and forth that our men are protecting, losing their lives.
I mean, they're losing their lives, Larry. We're spending billions
and billions of protection and those tankers are going over
(11:05):
to Japan. It's just preposterous. I watched the Kuwaiti oil
minister the other day laughing as he was explaining how
much money they intend to make with the Bridgeton, which
has been a total disaster the Bridgeton, and I said
to myself, isn't that a shame? He's talking about how
much money they're going to make and here we are,
he's smiling and laughing. Why don't we get some of it?
(11:26):
Why is it that we're protecting? We have frogmen, we
have helicopters, we have aircraft carriers and all sorts of
ships all over the Persian Gulf, so that this man
and his little group can make a lot of money.
I think it's ridiculous. Japan is one of the wealthiest
machines ever created. They're laughing to themselves, Larry, as to
what's happening in this country.
Speaker 10 (11:44):
Are we going to be hearing more from mister Trump
on issues like this as we go along?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I really don't know, Larry. This is an issue that's
been bothering me. It's been bothering a lot of people
that I know, the concept of America financing and paying
and losing lives for countries that won't even allow us
to use their ships. And these are the countries that
in twenty four hours they'd be wiped off the face
of the earth if it weren't for America. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 9 (12:10):
And then they talk about an invitation that he has
received to speak in New Hampshire in October at the
start of primary season.
Speaker 10 (12:19):
Is it true that you're going to go to New
Hampshire in October at the invitation of Mike Dunbar, who's
heading a group called Draft Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Well, I was asked about three or four weeks ago
whether or not by a very good friend of mine,
whether or not I'd go to New Hampshire. That's turned
out to be now a much bigger deal than I
had ever anticipated. And perhaps I don't know I am going.
I've made the commitment to go. I made the commitment
about three weeks ago, and I will go.
Speaker 10 (12:41):
Yes, you will go, even though you realize now in
just setting foot in that state, people are going to
presume things.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Well, they can presume whatever they want. I have no
intention of running for president, but I'd like the point
to get across that we have a great country, but
it's not going to be great for long. If we're
going to continue to lose two hundred billion dollars a year,
you're going to get into the early nineties, nineteen ninety,
nineteen ninety one, and the whole thing's gonna blow because
this country cannot continue to support Japan and Saudi Arabia
(13:07):
and Kuwait and many other countries that are much wealthier
than we are. We're not a wealthy country. You can't
be a wealthy country when you're losing the kind of
money that we'll lose. It's going to be so bad
that people will never I really believe this could be
much much worse, unfortunately than recession. This could be the
step beyond. I hate to use the word depression, but
if we don't solve the two hundred billion a year loss,
(13:30):
which is exactly what we have, this country is going
to have some very very serious problem in the early
nineteen nineties.
Speaker 10 (13:37):
One other thing, could the next presidency be a one
term presidency? Because of that?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
I think the next president of the United States could
have some very, very very serious problems. It's going to
be I think a very difficult It's going to be
a very difficult presidency because of the problems that we're
talking about right now.
Speaker 10 (13:52):
And you don't want it to be Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
I do not want it to be Donald Trump, but
I do want the problem to be solve.
Speaker 9 (13:57):
Larry So before that in the eighties, I would say
eighty four eighty five, he's interviewed. People say you should
be a politician. He says, yeah, no, that does really
interest me. September second, nineteen eighty seven is his coming
out day. It's an orchestrated coming out day and he
uses exactly the same language now that he did that.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
We'll be back in just a moment.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Let's get back into it.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
But also I think you mentioned that it's tied to Russia.
He had just this is just following a number of
trips to Russia, among other things.
Speaker 9 (14:35):
So go back two months, A couple of other things happen.
One is that he travels to Moscow at the invitation
of in tourists. It is the official Soviet travel agency,
and it's in an operational arm of the KGB, and
that's not in dispute. That's just what it was. So essentially,
(14:56):
at the invitation of de facto the KGB, he traveled
to Moscow. But in nineteen ninety, when he's interviewed by Playboy,
he actually describes this trip.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Here's our friend comedian Rob Cordory reading some excerpts from
Donald Trump's interview with Playboy magazine in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 11 (15:15):
There, I am up in my plane when my pilot
announces we are now flying over the Soviet Union, and
I'm thinking to myself, what the hell am I doing here?
Then I look out the window I see two Russian
fighter planes. I later found out guiding us in. I
had insisted on having two Russian colonels flying with me.
(15:38):
I felt safer. I told them, guys, we have a
basic problem far as real estate is concerned. It's impossible
to get title to Russian land since the government owns
it all. What kind of financing are you going to
get on a building with a land is owned by
the goddamn motherland. They said, no problem, mister Trump, we
(16:02):
will work out Lise agreements. I said, I want ownership,
not Lesa's. They came up with a solution, mister Trump.
We form a committee with ten people, of which seven
are Russian and three are your representatives, and all disputes
will be resolved in this manner. I thought to myself, shit,
(16:23):
seven to three are we dealing in the world of
the make believe?
Speaker 12 (16:27):
Here?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
What?
Speaker 9 (16:30):
Surprisingly, because there has been quite a bit written about
this trip. Zero people have reported that he registered as
a Republican three days before taking the trip, And so
when you look at the content of that ad, it
is an ad whose message is that US allies and
alliances are not to be trusted. The intention is to
(16:52):
undermine the confidence of the American people in our allies
and alliances, and that becomes the focal point because comes NATO.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
So I think it's fair to say, because there's some
other authors have looked into this a little bit. Craig
Unger is one. There's a number They've written number of
books about Donald Trump's interest in Russia and how his
talking points seem to change around this time, but they
do seem to be Russian talking points. You talked about
the nineteen ninety interview and Playboy. One of the things
he's doing in that interview is he's suggesting that the
(17:23):
hardliners and Soviet Union. You know, Gorbachev is not being
tough enough. Trump is supporting the hardliners. The fact that
these ideas are really out of the mainstream of American policy.
That the odd notion that Gorbachev's not being tough enough
and he should keep country together. From a real estate builder,
it just seemed very odd.
Speaker 11 (17:39):
Russia is out of control and the leadership knows it.
That's my problem with Gorbachev not a firm enough hand.
When the students poured into Tianamen Square, the Chinese government
almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible.
If they put it down with strength, that shows you
(18:02):
the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived
as weak as being spit on by the rest of
the world. Generally, these guys are much tougher and smarter
than our representatives. We have people in this country just
as smart, but unfortunately they're not elected officials. We're still
suffering from a loss of respect that goes back to
(18:23):
the Carter administration when helicopters were crashing into one another
and Iran. Some of our presidents have been incredible jerk offs.
We need to be tough. I don't want the presidency.
I'm going to help a lot of people with my foundation,
and for me, the grass isn't always greener.
Speaker 9 (18:43):
Okay, So first of all, where's the conspiracy. What's implausible?
You guys are Mission Applausbus.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
What's impossible.
Speaker 9 (18:50):
What's going to be implausible is the hotel deal. That's implausible.
It's a pretext. That's my assertion that the hotel deal
was a pretext, and furthermore that it was there was
a pretext agreed upon prior to his trip. I don't
believe this story about the hotel. I don't believe it.
There are three intervals of Trump talking about Soviets in
(19:13):
the nineteen eighties. In the first interval, nineteen eighty four
eighty five, Trump is obsessed with negotiating a nuclear arms
deal with the Soviets. Where does he get this idea?
He gets this idea apparently from his uncle, really based
(19:34):
from his childhood. After November nineteen eighty five, he never
talks about that again. Never he's on Letterman.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
You know, at the beginning of the show, I said
you either love him or you hate him. Now do
you find that that's true? Or does everybody love you
or does everybody hate you?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Now? Most people love me and a few really have
great dis stays to him.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Huh.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And why is it those people that few would not
care for you because you're so successful to.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
No, Oh, I don't think so. It's just I sort
of speak my mind a little bit a little bit
like you in that respect, a little bit like.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
A little bit like me, not too much, hopefully. And
what about the are people trying to draft you to
run for a president up in New Hampshire?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Well, I guess a lot of people want to see
this country. Yeah, it's it's a shame what's happening. Japan,
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, They're all everybody's taken advantage of the
United States. People know that if certain people are running
a country, that it won't happen. I mean when you
look at Japan not paying for the defense. We're defending Japan.
We're losing billions and billions of dollars and it's a shame.
And the Japanese folks, who I respect greatly, but they're
(20:36):
they're not treating us fairly. They're really not treating us
fairly Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, They're not paying us anything for
the services we're rendering it. I think it's a disgrace.
And I think people look at certain people and maybe
me if that if I were in a position this
country believed me would not be ripped off like it is,
and it is just being ripped off so badly by
our so called allies.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
So, so that that's a pretty strong statement.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
So now are you say it gets strong? I think
it's fair. And by the way, I have tremendous respect
for the Japanese I have. I do a lot of
business with the Japanese, and they smile about it too.
They know it. The country is losing billions and billions
of dollars to Japan and we can't afford to lose
and it's a shame.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
But so now are you saying this by way of
indicating that you could do it better? And you do
intend to run for president.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I'm not going to run for president, but I think somebody.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
In eight years, if you came back, would you have
a different answer in four years.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I tend to doubt it. I really tend to doubt it.
Speaker 9 (21:27):
You ask when did Donald Trump's national political career begin.
There's a single answer, September second, nineteen eighty seven. What
made him do the things he did on that day?
We have to think what happened before and after it.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
So this makes him vulnerable.
Speaker 9 (21:40):
It makes in vulnerable because he demands to be taken seriously.
He is in a weak psychological position, because he is
a fundamentally needy person from the Russian Soviet side. It's
obvious that they take him seriously. They fly him in
a private jet or escort his own private jet through
(22:01):
Soviet airspace, accompanied in the cabin by two Russian colonels
and actually winged by Soviet Air Force. He spends a
quarter million dollars of his own money publishing an ad
in Then Airtimes, Washington Post, Boston Globe that is very
clearly aligned and in the service of KGB talking points.
At that time, he keeps going Oprah.
Speaker 13 (22:23):
You took out a full page ad in major US
newspapers last year criticizing US foreign policy. What would you
do differently.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Down I'd make our allies forgetting about the enemies, the
enemies you can't talk to so easily.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
I'd make our allies pay their fair share.
Speaker 6 (22:36):
We're a debtor nation.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Something's going to happen over the next number of years
with this country because you can't keep going on losing
two hundred billion, and yet we let Japan come in
and dump everything right into our markets and everything. It's
not free trade. If you ever go to Japan right
now and try to sell something, forget about it. Open,
just forget about it. It's almost impossible.
Speaker 9 (22:55):
She speaks at Lehigh University in June nineteen eighty eight,
a year and a half after the trip, and to
these poor graduates captive there, he says, forget about our
enemies Russia. We don't deal with them that much.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
This is a tremendous honor for me. I guess in
a lot of ways. My wife is sitting right over here.
She just became an American citizen. And that's Savannah. The
other night of Honna and I had dinner with Abe Rosenthal,
who headed and did such an incredible job at the
(23:31):
New York Times and gay Talise the writer, and they
used an expression which I thought was fantastic. It was
the feeling of supremacy that this country had in the
nineteen fifties. It was a feeling of supremacy. It really was.
I've known that since the Vietnam War and even a
little bit before, this country hasn't had the feeling of supremacy.
(23:52):
And what's happening is Japan and Saudi Arabia and Kuwait
and so many countries are just ripping off American left
and right and down the middle like nobody. I mean,
not our enemies. Forget about our enemies Russia. We don't
deal with them that much, et cetera, et cetera. These countries,
our friends, are making billions and billions of dollars and
(24:15):
stripping us of our dignity, our economic dignity. We're a
deator nation, we're a poor nation. And it's ridiculous what's happening.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
And we'll be right back, and we're back.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
But what we haven't discussed here is a whole nother
big part of this is the character of the Russian
security services.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
So there's a.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Guy by the name of Armond Hammer. If people older
people might remember Armand Hammer. He was an industrialist in
the nineteen sixties occidental oil. He was the Donald Trump
of the nineteen fifties and sixties, and he was the
one guy who could deal with the Soviet Union right.
And he was a philanthropist and loved by many administrations.
(25:02):
And it didn't come out until twenty or thirty years
afterwards that he was very likely, almost certainly a spy
for the Russians. Spy meaning he was an agent of
Russian of Soviet interests, and he was dealing with the
Russians in a way that he was keeping secret from
the US and that was benefiting the Russians. There was
(25:23):
a quid pro quo there, and so the Russians that's
the way they operate.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
And Philip said it, well, is the fact that they're
going to pay attention to them and they're going to
give them what he thinks he needs to try to
develop relationship with him. And we've all learned about Donald Trump.
It's attention and saying nice things about him. In one
of the books, Uri Schwetz is a KGB officer who
defected to the United States. He's head of Trump quote.
This guy is not a complicated cookie as most important
(25:49):
characteristics being low intellect coupled with hyperinflated vanity. This combination
makes him a dream for an experienced recruiter.
Speaker 9 (25:57):
Now, since you brought up Armenhammer, I will note one
thing because fit in the timeline, Trump serves on a
Reagan appointed panel with Armenhammer eighty forty five, and he
goes to a gala event hosted by Armenhammer in November
nineteen eighty five, exactly the time that I'm talking about.
Armenhammer builds a one hundred and fifty million dollar luxury
(26:17):
hotel and conference center in Moscow that opens, I believe
in nineteen eighty Philip.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
Let's go forward to twenty fifteen, just for a second.
Donald Trump is now running for president. Yeah, he says
I have no business interests, and he says this over
and over in different ways. I have no business interests
in Russia. And so back to the hotel. It turns
out afterwards that on twenty eight October twenty fifteen, he
signed a non binding letter of intent to build Trump
(26:46):
Tower Moscow. The Russians know he's lying to the American people.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
Trump knows.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
The only people who don't is the American people. That's compromat, right,
So his relationship with the Russians is fairly deep.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
If you are lying to the American people about something
and the Russians know you're a lying to the American
people about that gives them not copra, but some sort
of leverage. And also you have this long history behind him. Yes,
he can feel like he's totally one of the boys.
We're intelligence officers. We try to recruit people. We use
whatever it takes. It might be, you know, finding out
(27:23):
whether you're upset with your boss. It might be that
you need something for your kid. It might need that
you need medical help, but it might be you just
want ego boost.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
The conspiracy theory version of this is that he is
an agent, a source, a paid source of the of
the Russians, right, that they're the puppet master.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
It doesn't never be paid.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
But what I think is it's clear to me as
an intelligence officer, is that he has a relationship with
the Russians that he's not sharing with the American people.
Speaker 9 (27:50):
So I agree with you, he lies, but I don't
care that he lies. In twenty fifteen, because he's been
lying for until twenty eight years by then.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Right with what you're saying, is this stuff happened a
long time ago. It wasn't like we need to look
at twenty fifteen or what happened then to think that
he could be compromised. He was compromised thirty years before.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
I think we're on board with that. Yeah, as a possibility.
Speaker 9 (28:09):
Sure, let me let's read a line from the Playboy interview.
Speaker 14 (28:13):
Here's Rob Kudry again, reading from the Playboy interview with
Donald Trump from March first, nineteen ninety.
Speaker 11 (28:21):
Playboy, Why is Gorbachev not firm enough? I predict he'll
be overthrown because he's shown extraordinary weakness suddenly for the
first time ever. There are coal miner strikes and brush
fires everywhere, which will ultimately lead to.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
A violent revolution.
Speaker 11 (28:39):
Yet Gorbachev is getting credit for being a wonderful leader,
and we should continue to give him credit because he's
destroying the Soviet Union. But his giving an inch is
going to end up costing him and all his friends
what they.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Most cherish their jobs.
Speaker 9 (28:57):
At that time, Gorbachev's position was still fairly strong. This
was extremely ahead of the curve assertion by Trump that
Gorbachev was going to be overthrown, and sure enough VLADIMIRU Kushkoff,
who's the head of the KGB. Khrushkoff is one of
the organizers of the coup that happens eighteen months after
(29:20):
this interview, the failed coup. And this is not the
only time he does this. He also predicts that Yeltsin
will be ousted, and he does this during his Reform
Party run also on Larry King Live, and the same
thing happens in twenty ten, twenty eleven, except then his
coming out as a SEAPAC conference, and every single time
(29:42):
when you'd listen to this Larry King Live interview in
nineteen ninety nine, every single time he returns to the
same themes. Our allies are ripping us off, We're being
played for suckers. The world is laughing at us. We
can't trust NATO. Every single time he reappears as a
political figure.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
But there are many the countries and taking tremendous advantage
of this, including NATO. If you look at the payments
that we're making to NATO, they're totally disproportioned with everybody
else's and it's ridiculous. We don't have any money. We're
going this country is busted, and it's busted because we're
doing things that we shouldn't be doing.
Speaker 9 (30:15):
There's only one thing that Donald Trump has done consistently
for the last thirty seven years. He's had different wives,
he's had different business interests. He was on TV really
after Trump Tower. He never builds anything of significant. The
only thing that is consistent is his viewpoint on United
States allies and alliances and the fact that this is
(30:36):
a failing country. American Carnage, Central Park five. There's two
things that KGB active measures were intended to do in
the United States and Western Europe. Undermine confidence in the
institutions of Western democracy, undermine support for our defensive alliances,
(30:57):
in particular NATO.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
You're saying that the relationship with the Russians, and it
started as the Soviets, has been consistent, and he's been
in some fashion aligned with them, whether he's fed talking
points or whatever it is. And the things we've seen
lately that are troubling and people have called compromund and
other things are simply a means of deflecting and trying
(31:20):
to and denying and trying to protect that relationship.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
There's also that the relationship that the Muller Report touches on,
it doesn't touch on. It goes like over two hundred
pages into is not just a relationship between Donald Trump,
but also the relationship between Trump World. Right, let me
cite the Mola report says it does not establish a conspiracy,
but that does not mean there is no evidence of
(31:44):
this fact.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
It makes it very clear that Jared Kushner don junior
man of Fort all met with Russians, not just Donald Trump.
And the reason this wasn't criminal, at least as far
as the Muller Report goes, was they couldn't prove that
they were witting, that they understood that they were involved
in a criminal conspiracy. They couldn't stablish motive.
Speaker 9 (32:09):
The only thing that's consistent in Donald Trump's life is
his articulation of almost the same talking points verbatim about NATO.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
And also, if it didn't come from this relationship and
his travels of Russia, where did it come from? Why
would a builder in New York be obsessed with NATO
and what they're paying? Thank you so much, Philip, Thank
you very much, Philip.
Speaker 9 (32:30):
Thank you guys.
Speaker 13 (32:32):
This sounds like political presidential talk. To me, And I
know people have talked to you about whether or not
you want to run.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
Would you ever?
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Probably not, But I do get tired of seeing the
country report.
Speaker 13 (32:43):
Why would you not?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I just don't think I really have the inclination to
do it.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
I love what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I really like it also doesn't pay as well, but
you know, I just.
Speaker 6 (32:53):
Probably wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
I probably wouldn't, but I do get tired of seeing
what's happening with this country, and if it got so bad,
I would never want to rule it out totally because
I really am tired of seeing what's happening with this country,
how we're really making other people live like kings.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
And we're not to continue our analysis. We're going to
talk again with our old friend Peter Struck.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
He's a former deputy Assistant director of the FBI's Conrad
Intelligence Division, and he led the investigation into the Russian
interference in the twenty sixteen the United States elections, as
well as the investigation into Hillary Clinton's use of a
personal email server. He's now an author, writer, speaker, and
podcaster who hosts the popular podcast clean Up on Aisle
forty five, and he's a good friend of ours.
Speaker 12 (33:34):
Welcome, Peter, Hey, John, Hey, Jerry. Great to be ready, Peter.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I'll get right into it. I was one of our
recent guests believes there is evidence that Donald Trump engage
in a relationship with Russian intelligence in the nineteen eighties
and since the nineteen eighties. He bases it on the
timing of his trips to Russia and Trump's subsequent actions
at the time. Can you explain what this would mean
to professional investigators, if anything. Are there circumstances where an
(33:58):
individual would be investigated on these kind of issues and
what would it take for that kind of investigation to start?
Speaker 12 (34:04):
Yeah, Well, should answer is I think that's probably a reach. Look,
what's important to remember is, you know, the FBI is
both it's interesting and unique in some ways, and that
it's both a member of the US intelligence community. At
the same time, it's a criminal law enforcement entity and
conducts investigations into violations of law. But what's interesting for
the FBI at least, and part of what I found
(34:25):
so fascinating working there, is it's also an intelligence organization.
Right it is the lead counterintelligence agency in the United States.
And what that means for your listeners is far beyond
just looking at an allegation of a violation of crime.
It's also charged with responding to all these nations around
the world that are doing intelligence activities within the United States.
(34:48):
And so when it comes to Russia, it's the FBI's
job to respond to that. And so when the government
of Russia, when Vladimir Putin, when the presidential authority says
we need or want to do these things, they will
leverage and call on all their intell agencies when they
come to operate in the United States. The FBI tries,
working with the rest of the intelligence community, tries to
(35:09):
understand what they're doing and prevent that make it harder
for them to do that. And if we're good at it,
manipulate that it is not at all surprising. Indeed, the
Russians would be negligent to not go out and try
and look at and understand as much as they could
movers and shakers in America. And so would it surprise
me at all if Donald Trump is a businessman in
(35:31):
the seventies and the eighties travel to Moscow or had
Soviet than Russian businessmen or private citizens coming in and
wanting to invest in his real estate or casinos there
anywhere else. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Would the Russians
try and look at that information that they obtained to say, Hey,
who is this person? How can we leverage him now
(35:54):
or even ten, twenty thirty years in the future, because
they as well, or if not better than the US.
We'll play the long game, right because maybe in ten
years that person is suddenly a prominent real estate mogul.
Maybe in twenty years that person's president of the United States.
Speaker 14 (36:10):
We're gonna stop here for today. There's a lot to
cover on this subject. So this is a two parter.
We'll pick this up on the next episode of Mission Implausible.
Speaker 15 (36:22):
Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Cipher,
and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission
Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures
for iHeart Podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Adam Davidson
John Sipher
Jerry O'Shea
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