December 23, 2025 • 50 mins
We’re breaking down The Capture of the Green River Killer. It’s the story of serial killer Gary Ridgway, who confessed to 48 murders and evaded capture for nearly 20 years, and the detective who refused to give up the chase. This true-crime drama shook a generation and delivers performances that are impossible to forget. The iconic Sharon Lawrence joins us with stories you won’t hear anywhere else.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Amy Roboc and TJ.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hey everyone, Elisa Donovan here back with a new episode
of Killer Thriller, where we examine the crossroads between the
true crime dramas that we find ourselves addicted to and
the real stories behind them. So today I'd like to
report I am in beautiful Maui with my family on
(00:34):
a little getaway, quick trip vacation. But my priority is
to deliver this episode to you all. So I look
a little crazy, but I think we're going to have
an incredible, incredible episode today because we are going to
dive into a true crime story that wow, it just
(00:57):
stays with you long long after the credit role. And
this is one of the most chilling serial killer cases
in US history. And this story is told not just
through the search for the killer, but through the lives
caught in the middle of it all. And our guest
today I am ecstatic to announce is Sharon Lawrence, actress, singer, dancer,
(01:22):
best known for her iconic and Emmy nominated role as
Adya Sylvia Costas Sipowitz on NYPD Blue. You may also
know her from roles in Desperate Housewives One Tree Hill
for voicing Scarlet Reynolds an American dad, but today she's
here to talk about her role in the capture of
the Green River Killer. This is a two thousand and
(01:45):
eight mini series that follows the nearly twenty year hunt
for Gary Ridgeway, the man responsible for the murders of
dozens of women in Washington State, and the detectives who
just refused to walk away from the case. Sharon played
the mother of a fictionalized character that was created to
(02:06):
honor the real victims, and today she's talking with us
about stepping into a true crime story with real weight
behind it. We're going to get into what she knew
about the case before, what it was like telling this
story while the killer is still alive, and how working
on something this dark can stay with you long after
(02:26):
the camera stop rolling. So please welcome Sharon Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Hi, Alisa, So nice to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
So nice to see you. Thank you so much for
spending your time with us today. This is one of
the most disturbing cases, probably that I have ever heard of,
and I'm just really excited to dive into this with you.
(02:57):
So let's just start with how much did you actually
know about the case before you signed on.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I didn't really know much. And I was interested in
playing this because I knew the lead actress, Amy Davidson.
We were friends, oh colleagues. We had done something years,
probably just a year prior or so, and I was
(03:24):
very impressed by her desire to evolve her artistry. Yep,
and Amy, if those of you who aren't familiar with her,
was one of the daughters on Three Simple Rules, Yes, Quoco,
who was also a friend of mine. I played her
mother in sitcom and that show, Three Simple Rules was
(03:49):
a sitcom and Amy had great theatrical chops and a
play that we did together, So I knew her taking
on this challenge of playing a character that really gives
us an insight into the psychology of not just a
victim in this tragic serial killer truth, but also young
(04:13):
girls that choose a path of prostitution, of being on
the streets the way that we don't understand, and her
her capacity for honesty and vulnerability and somebody that you
just trust inherently was a great choice for cast casting.
(04:35):
So I thought, Wow, how great to be part of
this to watch her. I also loved that the director
of this was a woman. Norma Bailey, one of the
most established directors in the Canadian film world. Uh. Norma
was one of the first directors that had come through
(04:59):
the the ranks in Canada's burgeoning film industry. And my
history as being part of Women in Films Leadership, the
US networking and advocacy group for Females in our Business
had drawn me to say yes to working with women
(05:20):
at any level, every level. So that's another Those two
reasons were what compelled me more so than the story.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Frankly, right, I love this so much because, first of all,
I was going to say, you and Amy actually look
as though you could be mother and daughter. And I
really understand that desire for her to break out of
what you've been known for. And that's something that as
actors in general, but certainly as younger actors, we these
(05:53):
sorts of films, the TV movies at the time especially,
really allowed you to explore a whole different area where
you might not be able to do that in sort
of your certainly, and you're in a TV series sort
of life or in another kind of film. So I
love that, and I also you know you and I
(06:15):
both know it is still a very small pool of
women that are directing television and film. And I remember
very distinctly the female directors that I worked with in television,
never in Canada, but American TV, and it's you know,
they're few and far between, and it's I love that
those are the reasons. That is not what I would
(06:37):
have expected. So do you think that having Norma as
obviously being a woman directing this, what sort of impact
do you think that had on the actual storytelling?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
So many ways? And let's also consider and I'm sorry
that I don't know who is responsible for this, but
I bet that we can find this out who it
was that chose to green light this story in the
way that it was told. And this is a good
time to examine the fact that it's a two part
(07:12):
mini series. That's important because not only was Gary Ridge
at Rain decades long? Right, was it close to thirty
years that he was Yeah?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Over twenty over twenty yeah before they Yeah, that.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Deserves more than ninety minutes streetelling if you take out commercials,
two nights of this, and that's important whoever said yes
at the studio and network level, because it's a big
commitment for a network.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yes, instead of trying to truncate it or get it
done as quickly as possible, and you lose so much nuance.
That's something that I really appreciated about this that well,
first of all, let's make sure everybody knows that you're
your character is fictional and created, as is Amy's, but
you're really there to represent the lives and the souls
(08:08):
and the spirits of all of the victims. So that's
one of pretty big you know, wait to carry there,
And how did you feel about did you personally feel
that as Okay, I really need to do justice to
this for these people, of.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Course, of course, and the script compelled me so much
because it was written with the homage to that wonderful
and heartbreaking novel The Lovely Bones. Yes, yes, yes, And
so if you aren't familiar with that, the storytelling of
the woman who the young woman who lost her life,
(08:52):
I want to call her more than just a victim,
because that's what that novel reveals, as does John peel Meyer,
the screenwriter's take on The Green River Killer. It's told
through the eyes of the women, one in particular that
Amy's Davidson's character is focused on. We learn about her,
(09:19):
we don't just see the result of this time. We
learn about all of the choices and the steps along
the way that put her on this path with this monster,
and the sensitivity within this story, paired with the horror
(09:41):
of the truth, I found so rewarding and moving when
I went back to watch it based on your invitation
to be be a guest, because we understand through the
narration of philosophy that a young woman who feels discarded, yes, disvalued, abused,
(10:05):
discarded by society in a way that doesn't give her
and all of those women in Seattle at the time
who were taken a real I think importance in this story.
The news stories, whereas they always are sensationalized, they were
(10:26):
sex workers. That's an important thing to talk about in
this particular story. You might have mentioned it in your intro,
but that's who he prayed he was targeting. So it's
easy to think, well, these gals had it coming, But
why were they there in the first place. Yes, that
character is examined through a tenderness and an inner monologue,
(10:49):
an evolution that John peel Meyer gave it. John peel
Meyer is an amazing playwright. Agnes God is one of
his most famous plays and that is an examination of
nuns in a cloistered culture who are experiencing psychological trauma
(11:13):
and abuse at the hands of the men in the
Catholic leadership, priests and even the women who are protecting them.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
He's really a feminist writer that people. I don't feel
like he's ever characterized that way, but he truly is
one of the og feminist writers.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yes, he's a man. And here's something else that your
viewers and listeners may not know. He plays Gary Wridgwell
in this mini series. The man who wrote it plays
the Green River Killer, and his performance is staggering.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
You know, I've watched a lot of the documentary footage
of this man and it is uncanny the you know,
the sort of the I was going to say the
soul of the character, but or the lack thereof he is.
He really captures something that that that was in this
(12:28):
man in real life. It's so.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Well, you know what I think it is as is
very potent when you're examining the profile and how interesting
this story was that the FBI expert got it all wrong.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Got it all wrong, got it all wrong.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
And they were searching for you know what is it?
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Text? Some big guy who was, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
A capacity, the physical.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Loner, didn't have a wife, didn't have any of the things.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It was literally the opposite, right, And who did get
it right as Ted Bundy. They spoke with him and
Ted Bundy nailed it.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yep. That's one of the most bizarre things that they
go to speak with Ted Bundy in prison to get
his input on how to find this serial killer. And
I also know you're talking about just going back to
what you said before. You know, one of my questions
was going to be how much agency do you think
(13:33):
that TV movies should have over changing the truth and
not exactly being true to the facts. But you said
it so beautifully that this story, the way it's told,
it actually is enhanced by not only using the facts,
by creating these women, you have the ability to tell
(13:54):
a fuller story actually and make it not just about
the numbers and the the violence and the actual crime itself.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yes, and to see the family dynamic that was created
in our particular family, the lack of resources, a family
living on the edges where any moment that a paycheck
(14:25):
doesn't come through, they live in a mobile home that
those while it the set the artists, pardon me, the design,
the production design. I remember walking in net that set
(14:46):
and seeing the care. If you look at at Amy's
character's bedroom, the lonely vintage lamp and her rooms, it's
a girl's room. Her mother is trying. Her mother wanted
to give her a sense of home. And as Amy's
(15:07):
character says, this mother chooses men badly. She goes through men.
And it's not about sex with her, this mother. It's
about security and a man in their lives, even a
bad man who rapes her daughter in their home. And
(15:31):
this mother refuses to believe it. You know, she knows
it's true, right, but she punishes her daughter for saying
the truth. She defends this man because that's her survival.
She's a waitress and living on the edge. And it's
an existential moment for this mother that she chooses something
(15:56):
that is unconscionable. But I think we all know that
women without agency often make decisions yes are tragic. And
then sadly, her daughter hooks up with a guy who
will only use her.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yep, And this reveals how hurt people hurt people, and
abused people just go into that same cycle of abuse.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
And then Na talks about that. The voiceover this young
girl is a real philosopher, right right, she is thinking
things through and fate is the big theme. It's Greek
tragedy in a way. Fate. Are we responsible for our
for what happens to us? Or are we merely on
(16:52):
the train for the ride and nothing is going to
stop it? And how do you reconcile when you realize
both things are true?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Right, both things are true? And how you reconcile living
in a culture where liars like Gary Ridgewell, he was
a great liar. You see this in our story, and
you see it because they caught him. You know they
got him because he's so convincing.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Right. And then once he is actually caught in the
documentary footage that I've watched, you see this man tell
a lie straight to them. His face does not change.
And then they say, well, we know you're lying because
of this, and he says, right by yeah, and here's why,
(17:45):
and then gives an explanation of why. It's what really
strikes me about all of these cases, but this one
really in particular for both people, for the victims and
for Gary Bridgeway himself. It's everybody it's all about needing
love and care and mattering right, and the when you
(18:09):
don't have that or when you have it in a
very twisted and warped way, how that can inform your life.
And it's really sort of it's just jarring. It's very
moving because it's the simplest thing ever, but it's actually
the most important part of being human.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
I want to read something to you. Amy and I
are connected in a lot of ways, and not believe it.
She's by one of my dear friends who has now
become one of the top acting.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Coaches, Lee Lee Hilton Smith.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Lee coached Amy, I believe. When I was invited to
do this, I thought, let me just reach out and
maybe I'll talk to Amy too at some point, because
she could speak more for herself than.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
I love that. Yes, but.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Lee, I said, do you remember were you part of this?
And she said, yeah, I think so. But and I
told her that I was coming to do this, and
I even ask you, I want to be on a podcast.
I don't know whether she would because she's very protective
of the way she walks science. But I'm going to
read something to you that is directly related to what
(19:21):
you just said. How do we get in their minds
what they meaning? The people that are capable of this,
I think we know so many people who are who
are professional liars, who are compulsive, and they are sociopathic, narcissists,
(19:43):
and they are at the highest levels of everything, certainly
in our culture yep. But someone who is who will
be led to murder and the kind of murder that
this man dies did is worth noting to figure out
the psychology that what they were saying to themselves to
(20:07):
justify their actions. She at least worked on a couple
of these, so again she may be worth checking in with.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
That.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Even people like Ted Bundy, they to figure out their
psychology and what motivates the parts of themselves that were
broken that needed validation, and as Li says, it's fascinating
for me to figure out, not to figure out, but
to realize in research that they are bearing levels of
(20:39):
personal accomplishment.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yes, depending on how someone murders another person, Strangulation is
one thing because it's usually done from behind, which is
what the Green River killer did yep. And there are
other other modes of killing that you know are even
more personal because they have to do with being face
(21:03):
to face right, and not with a weapon that is
close and personal. When someone is feeling small and so
many aggressive crime scenes are moted by a feeling or
a fear of being inconsequential, there is a connection there.
(21:24):
If they feel inconsequential, then they can use this action
to feel consequential. It's not just hunting, right, success.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yes, success actually being acknowledged for yeah, their achievements. It
is you know, this is why I'm so fascinated by
these things. You know, people can say this is like
a morbid fascination. It really is about the human condition
and right, what we are capable as capable of as
(22:00):
human beings, of beautiful, great grand things and horrific things.
And I always think, you know, it's shortsighted for us
to kind of say put people in these bockets that,
oh that person's just crazy. You know, they've done horrible things,
they're just crazy. It's really how did we get there?
(22:23):
We are all human beings, and so this is again
why I really feel like this particular series really aims
to focus in on that how did we get there?
How did these women come to this decision to be
where they are? Or oftentimes you know, they don't have
(22:46):
any they have no other way to go.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yes, I as I was watching it. What also rang
so true is they were in this story manipulate by men.
This young this young gal is abused by the man
that her mother brings in the house.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Mm hmm. And she has no other reference, right.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
That's and then she chooses. She falls in love with
a very charming, sexy young guy who you think, well,
they're they're they're they're matched in ways that makes sense.
And he's a drug addict, and he he pimps her
to get drugs. He sleeps with somebody else, not somebody
(23:31):
that she cares about, not somebody who forces themselves upon her.
But she makes a choice to give up her body
for the sake of a guy who who she does love,
who she does trust, and who is also hooking her
on drugs and the manipulation of men. The killer to
(23:56):
make these young women think that he's safe. He's on
a suite, he talks about his kids, he talks about
his wife.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I was so struck by that that that is really
it's so diabolical to carry a picture of your child
to put these women at ease. So did you once
you didn't? I know you said at the start that
you didn't know much about the case before you started
the series, but did you do research on it at
(24:26):
that point? How much did you learn? Did you want
to know more or did you want to keep it
more about just the story of you and your daughter
in a script?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Of course, I read the script, so you know, you
never don't do a movie without reading the script. And
that script was enough for me to understand I'm serving
something dark, but my role in it is about that
the average person miss saying what's going on right underneath
(25:04):
their eyes, and the desperation that people who are on
the edges of security or insecurity with your economic status
walk through all the time, and how you have to deflect.
(25:24):
You can't let all of the threats come in because
you would be worn out. Yes, I was playing during
that time. I'd been playing and I still do a
lot of polished women, women of privilege, women who had access,
women who were strong, who had their own agency. This
(25:45):
character doesn't, and that was interesting for me. I'm the
character actress, so I always am grateful for the opportunity
to explore something else, and I don't think at that point, Yeah,
I hadn't started playing being killers myself, and now I
have played quite a few killers.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
This is another question I wanted to ask you. You know,
I don't think I have ever played someone. First of all,
I've never played somebody who's a real person who existed
in history. But nor have I played someone who is
so like the circumstances are so dark and so bleak.
So how did that? How did it or didn't it
(26:41):
stay with you on the on the daily, both while
you're on set, but then in the aftermath, like, how
did it impact your.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
You possibly shooting this, I remember, I remember the pain
of hurting Amy, and my character hurts hers physically and psychologically.
And I remember in that mobile home the tenderness with
(27:13):
which it was decorated, the homeliness that was there, and
the compression of the size of the space and how
trapped they felt. And then at the end when she's gone.
We worked hard on my character going from presentational and
going out into the world and trying to look younger
(27:35):
than she is and dressed up for her waitress job,
chose frosted lip gloss that I chose to put on
while she wants to tell me something really hard and
I'm rushing and I'm so self involved that I never
even I ask what's wrong, but I don't take the
(27:55):
time to listen. I don't really want to know. And
by the end I see this woman who has is
paying the price for her ignorance, for her willful ignorance.
And we chose to have me sitting on the outside
of the trailer on a step which you want here
(28:16):
come in and out of. She's she's on the outside
of her life now and once again she's putting something
to her mouth to silence the thoughts, to soothe, and
it's this time it's a long nick yep beer.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
The feeling that I got in watching that was this
this woman who comes out of that tiny space and
now is sitting outside with this expansive world around her,
and she is downloading. She doesn't really have anything now,
(28:53):
like she's lost so much and all of that space
is just the vast us around her and she doesn't
she doesn't she's lost her child. It's a really poignant
it's a very uh. Yeah, I think it's just a
great choice.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
That was normal, right, you know, normally it was Yeah.
I don't know whether it was. I can't can't remember
if it was in the script that way. But Norma
saw it and we shot on a day we were shooting.
We shot in Winnipeg, Canada, which is the That's the
Prairie if you don't know, Yeah, Manitoba, it's the prairie.
(29:35):
And there it was the summer and there was a
huge storm coming up and you could see the clouds,
the gray just rolling in. And she knew that light
because that's where she's from. She knew the lights exactly right.
It was foreboding, It was heavy, and it's the mood
(29:59):
that we all need to wrap this thing up. And
it also looks like the Pacific northwest, right, it doesn't hit.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Oh, definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
The ions in the air are.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yes, yes, yes, dense right, that dense green and yeah, yeah.
How did it feel too, be shooting this and knowing
that this man is still alive that while you're I mean,
there are so many parts of this that just must
(30:33):
have been a lot to metabolize.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, you know, I hadn't seen John's portrayal at that point,
so I wasn't. I didn't feel as connected to Gary
Killer as I did to the Green River and the
people who live there whose lives he affected. They are
really smart, smart in sit into the narrative about how
(31:02):
many lives this man's actions touched. The families, of course,
of those who were lost to his actions, but the
teams of detectives and the judicial system members who were
working and failing and struggling and obsessed. I just want
(31:25):
to shout out. Every performance in this movie is so anchored.
It's again because we have the luxury of storytelling time
that you see, they can the camera can rest with someone,
the camera can reveal how they're haunted in the middle
of the night wondering why can't they crack this, why
(31:46):
can't they figure out? Tom Cavanaugh is so beautifully honest.
He plays the lead detective, Yes, lead detective who was
as a father. He's a religious man. You know, faith
is a big part of this story. Yes, he refers
to his faith. His daughter, his wife says at one
(32:08):
point when he's brought these pictures home, and she says,
you said you weren't going to bring this into our home,
into our house. They have young kids, and she says
that with a question. He said why, and she says,
you need help, And he says, I pray every day
and it's just it's sincere honest, and she said, I'm
(32:29):
not talking about that you need to get a new computer,
but he is relying on his faith. He needs help
and he's going to faith for that.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
And I also felt it was really interesting how you know,
as you say, this man has children and small children
in the home, and so how do you Number one,
you can't separate at a certain point, work and life,
home life, they are always going to mesh in some regard,
but also this idea of how do you share horrific
(33:08):
things with children? Right? You can't completely shield them from it, right,
and then at a certain point you have to be
able to And I know this from my own experience
of friends having very very tragic things happen that we
have had to share with our daughter. And you know,
(33:29):
you can't just shield it and act like everything's fine,
because kids know. Kids understand instinctually when something does not
feel right, so you can't lie to them. But you
also don't want to just dump all of this information
on them. And I loved that scene where his daughter
comes up to him, you know, and says something to
the effect of Daddy, like, I'm proud of you are
(33:52):
I understand what you're doing and you get this says
that this child knows he's doing something very very challenging
and very dark, but it's important. And I thought that
was beautiful.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, you know, it makes me think of the series
that I'm called Joe Picket. It's about a game warden
in Wyoming who ends up solving crimes and murders. And
it's a it's a wonderful best selling novel series, and
we did two seasons on Paramount Plus. And he's a
(34:29):
family man and crime ends up coming to his to him,
to his family. You think about what kids who are
exposed to crimes see, and in this story Joe Picket,
what draws him to being a protector is that he
(34:52):
himself grew up in an abusive household. Right, And that's
the same thing.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
That's the same story with Tom.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
So we we know kids live it now. I mean
the media exposes them all the time, everything, right, you
know the world. How do you protect the innocence? I'm
not sure? But what you what you get in this
story is someone who grew up with that wound, that damage,
(35:27):
and and how that becomes his secret now his superpower,
not secret, but his superpower, right, right, And we need
those heroes. We need the broken, the wounded warriors.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yes, yes, I think that that gives so much. Those
are the things that I'm interested in, is you know,
what we all go through as human beings and the
You know this certainly in American culture also, we don't
like to talk about difficult things, and we like everything
to be very tied up and pretty and young and petite,
(36:07):
and you know, life is just simply not that. And
when we don't incorporate all of the good and the bad,
you know, there's great hope and going through challenge and
seeing someone who can overcome that, not only overcome it,
but actually use what they went through in order to
(36:32):
inform their life in a positive way and to influence
other people, like to actually use the difficulty to come
through the other side. I think it's just a beautiful
message and an important one.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
And it's what fairy tales, the good Ones, grit Ye did,
and those Greek tragedies Esophocles, Eschylus, Euripides, they write about murder, patricide.
It's there. It's in all of those stories, these ancient
stories when our humans were were gathering to understand themselves.
(37:13):
What catharsis is used and meant to do. And then
Grim's recognized it. You know, the European culture new to
put it in the context for children, right, right, we
find it now in a lot of ways in Marvel.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
We keep telling these stories. We need to keep telling
these stories. And AI. I just was seeing something on
my today about AI chat bots that come into the
lives of young people, sayteen fourteen, fifteen, Yes, at the
(37:57):
time when they need to be able to explore the
flaws in their judgment, to prepare them to make decisions
on their own. Yes, not maybe prior to that age,
but that age. As they are developing independence and thinking,
(38:18):
they need pushback, they need challenged. And these AI bots
are sycophantic. Yes, you're right about everything.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Everything you do is right everything. Yes, oh, I agree.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
That will handicap them as they grow older. In the
real world. It isn't about protecting all the time. Sometimes
it's just exposing and exploring and managing consequences with them.
That's why it's such a tight rope to be a
parent now. But we are uncharted territory with our younger
(38:55):
members of our culture being shielded in a way that.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Does not serve is handicapping them. I think that it
was exactly the right word. I boy, do I think
about this on a daily basis. And my daughter's thirteen,
so she's right in the heart of it. So just
a last couple of questions, So, how do you what's
your feeling on closure? So in terms of you know,
(39:27):
so the detective has said recently because Gary Ridgeway now
is apparently very close to death, but he's still in
prison obviously. And I think someone asked Dave Reikert, the detective,
you know, how does he feel about closure? Does he
(39:48):
think that's going to give the victims family's closure? And
I mean he says no, I agree. How do you
feel about this idea of closure after some thing like this?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
I had two Yeah, I have two thoughts. Vengeance is
a very satisfying emotion. It is very It's as human
as any other that we have, right, I mean, road rage,
we get it, We understand you. You want to protect
these people will not get it. And he pled guilty.
(40:25):
He turned himself and and and and he he solved
the he helped answer the questions. So there's that at
least they know the rights, loved ones knew and they
needed to.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Know which was we should say, I'm not sure in
case some of the listeners don't know they they gave
him that particular plea in order to give some of
the victim's family some sort of, if not closure and
understanding of what happened to their loved one.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
So they knew their loved one was indeed the victim.
This is where they died, This how they died. That
sounds horrific, but also I think we know through psychology
not knowing can be worse. Yes, rest, yes you never
get to rest, so that I don't think it was
a wrong call for the judicial system to offer that.
(41:19):
What I also know from my psychiatrist's husband is that
many people who are behind bars will never have Those
who are guilty will never have remorse. It's not possible.
They do not live there. There are people who will
never feel that. The sociopathic narcissist again that we have
(41:43):
populated with we make decisions for the rest of the
world currently currently remorse, they have no empathy. They We
will never change that about them. Our job is to
foster empathy, to foster understanding, to foster healthy environment so
(42:08):
that young people that are perhaps on that path may
have an intervention right earlier, sooner rather than later. I
did a movie, a true story, crime story that I produced.
Giancarlo Esposito and I starred in a television film called
Five Desperate Hours, a true story of a man who
(42:31):
invaded a woman's home while she was there. He was
running from the law. He held her captive in Durham,
North Carolina. She was a duke professor. She just happened
to be home. He chose the door that he was
entering not because he knew she was there, because he
was running from the cops. He had stolen a car
and was being chased. And they got to know each
(42:53):
other in that five hour period, and she not only
helped him surrender, but was there through his trial. She
wasn't the one who was pressing charges. It was the
person whose car he had taken and the robbery that
he had committed prior to He was desperate. He was desperate,
(43:17):
and he tried to take his own life in their home.
In that home, it was the anniversary of his brother's
suicide that was creating this storm within him on the
day that he committed this crime, And she herself had
understood that because she herself had tried to take her
own life at one point they bonded this And we
(43:39):
tell this story because the conclusion to it is that
they stayed close even while he was wow prison sentence,
which wasn't long, but significant, and that understanding these two
people were so vastly different, had something in common.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yes, that humanness, the ability to actually connect with another
human being, is what is the saving grace of life.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
And these I wonder if the people who lost their
fam their their loved one to the Green River killer,
if they found each other through the trial, if they
stayed in touch, if they were able to share the unspeakable,
the horrific that nobody else will understand. That may be
where the healing understanding comes far more than a sense
(44:27):
of closure. That that Gary Rittel will ever feel anything.
Him being gone may not shift for anyone nearly as
much as sharing an understanding of loss right somebody who's
been through it.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Sharon, you're just the best.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
I'm so pleased to be part of this. Thank you
for inviting me. My role it is not big, but
my examination, my appreciation, my understanding of this is increased
by your interest in this. And I tell you, people
should take some time and watch this because it is
it's human nature and tenderness, the good and the bad
(45:28):
in a very very poetically told story. And I give
all credit to the people that wrote it, John Pielmeyer,
that directed it, Norma Bailey, the actors who phenomenal cast
allround life into it and took in a real hard truth.
(45:49):
Give it back to us with the humanity that helps
us understand each other.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Yeah, well, people can check it out at streaming on
several different platforms. The capture of the Green River Killer.
Sharon Lawrence, your sparkling star. I am so happy that
you spent this time with us today. And is there
anything where can people find you? Is there anything else
(46:14):
you wanted to put out there?
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Well, I mentioned Five Desperate Hours. You can find that
on YouTube. Benjeane Carlo Weisposito.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Well he is amazing.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Yeah, what else do I need to say? And I
talked about Joe Pickett because that's a wonderful show. Michael Dorman.
If you know Michael Dorman, he was in for All Mankind,
he was in Yes Patriot on Amazon hit playing a
reluctant serial killer. He's on I think it's called Frontier
and Australian series. He's great. David Allen Greer is in
(46:48):
that series.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
I love David. Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Julianne Gwill Skywalker Hughes, who you'll hear more about. She's
in the New Little House on the Prairie, but she's
Miild in ours. She's a tween now, a child in
ours who who goes through some interesting stuff as as
I was saying, you know children who witness hard things
and how that's processed. I'm in a play in New
(47:14):
York and January called pen Pals Loving Story, a very loving, loving.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Story, beautiful ware. What theater.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
It's at the Daryl Roth Theater. I'll be there January
seventh through the eighteenth. Marie McCormick and I are starring
together in this story of women who were connected as
pen pals. They were fourteen years old in nineteen forty
eight and they stayed pen pals four a long time.
One is in New New Jersey and the others in Sheffield, England.
So we bring oh beautiful truth to this and it's great.
(47:43):
The hallmark of it all is wrapping up now, but
you can always find some good comfort in Hallmark's. Mine
is the Grand Old Opry Christmas, we filmed the one
hundred year anniversary of the Grand Old Opry and I
got to live at the Opry basically for a week,
and we featured that that very American institution. So well.
(48:06):
And then I'll be doing Steel Magnolias, a play at
Playmaker's Repertory Theater in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. That's my
alma mater. You unc Chapel Hill.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Oh really, yes, wait when are you doing that? My
family is now in North Carolina, so they live in Pinehurst.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
Fantastic. It's an easy drive. We run April the eighth
through the twenty sixth. Beth Grant, who you may know,
oh greatest character actress. Yes, I art, will be in
that play.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
And I will continue to do a solo play about
Catherine Graham that I've been doing for a while called
The Shot. It's an important story about the publisher of
the Washington Post who was publisher during the Watergate eras
and the great but it's the story of her personal life,
the struggles that she had. Her husband had bipolar disorder
(48:57):
and took his life six three and three days later,
she took over the Post, but she suffered a great
deal with his his suffering, and we understand how she
became the woman that she is, a reluctant but powerful
leader because of the struggles that she faced. So I'm
very proud of that. That piece, which well dates, will
(49:19):
be determined for Okay, I've been doing it for five
years now, so great. It's out there.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
And you'll put it out. Your social media is at
Sharon E. Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Sharon E stand for Elizabeth. That's that's my name, my mama.
Every once in a while when she was calling to
be from back of the house to come home, it
was Sharon Lisbeth.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Oh, well, thank you again so much. This has been
an absolute pleasure. You're such a pro and a lovely spirit,
and I am honored that you are here today with me.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Thank you, thank you, and I love that we have
Lee Hilton Smith in common. She's be worth worth talking to.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
She I'm going to contact her now.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Congratulations on this.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
I enjoyed our time.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Love hate me too.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
I want to hear what cases you all are interested
in hearing about. What are you watching that you want
us to talk about? What actors or producers or directors
do you want to hear from, Hit us up in
our DMS at Killer Thriller Pod on Instagram and TikTok
and let us know and make sure to follow the
pod on socials and subscribe to Amy and TJ Presents
(50:30):
wherever you listen to podcasts. And that will wrap us
up for today until next time.
Amy Roboc and TJ.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hey everyone, Elisa Donovan here back with a new episode
of Killer Thriller, where we examine the crossroads between the
true crime dramas that we find ourselves addicted to and
the real stories behind them. So today I'd like to
report I am in beautiful Maui with my family on
(00:34):
a little getaway, quick trip vacation. But my priority is
to deliver this episode to you all. So I look
a little crazy, but I think we're going to have
an incredible, incredible episode today because we are going to
dive into a true crime story that wow, it just
(00:57):
stays with you long long after the credit role. And
this is one of the most chilling serial killer cases
in US history. And this story is told not just
through the search for the killer, but through the lives
caught in the middle of it all. And our guest
today I am ecstatic to announce is Sharon Lawrence, actress, singer, dancer,
(01:22):
best known for her iconic and Emmy nominated role as
Adya Sylvia Costas Sipowitz on NYPD Blue. You may also
know her from roles in Desperate Housewives One Tree Hill
for voicing Scarlet Reynolds an American dad, but today she's
here to talk about her role in the capture of
the Green River Killer. This is a two thousand and
(01:45):
eight mini series that follows the nearly twenty year hunt
for Gary Ridgeway, the man responsible for the murders of
dozens of women in Washington State, and the detectives who
just refused to walk away from the case. Sharon played
the mother of a fictionalized character that was created to
(02:06):
honor the real victims, and today she's talking with us
about stepping into a true crime story with real weight
behind it. We're going to get into what she knew
about the case before, what it was like telling this
story while the killer is still alive, and how working
on something this dark can stay with you long after
(02:26):
the camera stop rolling. So please welcome Sharon Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Hi, Alisa, So nice to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
So nice to see you. Thank you so much for
spending your time with us today. This is one of
the most disturbing cases, probably that I have ever heard of,
and I'm just really excited to dive into this with you.
(02:57):
So let's just start with how much did you actually
know about the case before you signed on.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I didn't really know much. And I was interested in
playing this because I knew the lead actress, Amy Davidson.
We were friends, oh colleagues. We had done something years,
probably just a year prior or so, and I was
(03:24):
very impressed by her desire to evolve her artistry. Yep,
and Amy, if those of you who aren't familiar with her,
was one of the daughters on Three Simple Rules, Yes, Quoco,
who was also a friend of mine. I played her
mother in sitcom and that show, Three Simple Rules was
(03:49):
a sitcom and Amy had great theatrical chops and a
play that we did together, So I knew her taking
on this challenge of playing a character that really gives
us an insight into the psychology of not just a
victim in this tragic serial killer truth, but also young
(04:13):
girls that choose a path of prostitution, of being on
the streets the way that we don't understand, and her
her capacity for honesty and vulnerability and somebody that you
just trust inherently was a great choice for cast casting.
(04:35):
So I thought, Wow, how great to be part of
this to watch her. I also loved that the director
of this was a woman. Norma Bailey, one of the
most established directors in the Canadian film world. Uh. Norma
was one of the first directors that had come through
(04:59):
the the ranks in Canada's burgeoning film industry. And my
history as being part of Women in Films Leadership, the
US networking and advocacy group for Females in our Business
had drawn me to say yes to working with women
(05:20):
at any level, every level. So that's another Those two
reasons were what compelled me more so than the story.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Frankly, right, I love this so much because, first of all,
I was going to say, you and Amy actually look
as though you could be mother and daughter. And I
really understand that desire for her to break out of
what you've been known for. And that's something that as
actors in general, but certainly as younger actors, we these
(05:53):
sorts of films, the TV movies at the time especially,
really allowed you to explore a whole different area where
you might not be able to do that in sort
of your certainly, and you're in a TV series sort
of life or in another kind of film. So I
love that, and I also you know you and I
(06:15):
both know it is still a very small pool of
women that are directing television and film. And I remember
very distinctly the female directors that I worked with in television,
never in Canada, but American TV, and it's you know,
they're few and far between, and it's I love that
those are the reasons. That is not what I would
(06:37):
have expected. So do you think that having Norma as
obviously being a woman directing this, what sort of impact
do you think that had on the actual storytelling?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
So many ways? And let's also consider and I'm sorry
that I don't know who is responsible for this, but
I bet that we can find this out who it
was that chose to green light this story in the
way that it was told. And this is a good
time to examine the fact that it's a two part
(07:12):
mini series. That's important because not only was Gary Ridge
at Rain decades long? Right, was it close to thirty
years that he was Yeah?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Over twenty over twenty yeah before they Yeah, that.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Deserves more than ninety minutes streetelling if you take out commercials,
two nights of this, and that's important whoever said yes
at the studio and network level, because it's a big
commitment for a network.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yes, instead of trying to truncate it or get it
done as quickly as possible, and you lose so much nuance.
That's something that I really appreciated about this that well,
first of all, let's make sure everybody knows that you're
your character is fictional and created, as is Amy's, but
you're really there to represent the lives and the souls
(08:08):
and the spirits of all of the victims. So that's
one of pretty big you know, wait to carry there,
And how did you feel about did you personally feel
that as Okay, I really need to do justice to
this for these people, of.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Course, of course, and the script compelled me so much
because it was written with the homage to that wonderful
and heartbreaking novel The Lovely Bones. Yes, yes, yes, And
so if you aren't familiar with that, the storytelling of
the woman who the young woman who lost her life,
(08:52):
I want to call her more than just a victim,
because that's what that novel reveals, as does John peel Meyer,
the screenwriter's take on The Green River Killer. It's told
through the eyes of the women, one in particular that
Amy's Davidson's character is focused on. We learn about her,
(09:19):
we don't just see the result of this time. We
learn about all of the choices and the steps along
the way that put her on this path with this monster,
and the sensitivity within this story, paired with the horror
(09:41):
of the truth, I found so rewarding and moving when
I went back to watch it based on your invitation
to be be a guest, because we understand through the
narration of philosophy that a young woman who feels discarded, yes, disvalued, abused,
(10:05):
discarded by society in a way that doesn't give her
and all of those women in Seattle at the time
who were taken a real I think importance in this story.
The news stories, whereas they always are sensationalized, they were
(10:26):
sex workers. That's an important thing to talk about in
this particular story. You might have mentioned it in your intro,
but that's who he prayed he was targeting. So it's
easy to think, well, these gals had it coming, But
why were they there in the first place. Yes, that
character is examined through a tenderness and an inner monologue,
(10:49):
an evolution that John peel Meyer gave it. John peel
Meyer is an amazing playwright. Agnes God is one of
his most famous plays and that is an examination of
nuns in a cloistered culture who are experiencing psychological trauma
(11:13):
and abuse at the hands of the men in the
Catholic leadership, priests and even the women who are protecting them.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
He's really a feminist writer that people. I don't feel
like he's ever characterized that way, but he truly is
one of the og feminist writers.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yes, he's a man. And here's something else that your
viewers and listeners may not know. He plays Gary Wridgwell
in this mini series. The man who wrote it plays
the Green River Killer, and his performance is staggering.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
You know, I've watched a lot of the documentary footage
of this man and it is uncanny the you know,
the sort of the I was going to say the
soul of the character, but or the lack thereof he is.
He really captures something that that that was in this
(12:28):
man in real life. It's so.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Well, you know what I think it is as is
very potent when you're examining the profile and how interesting
this story was that the FBI expert got it all wrong.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Got it all wrong, got it all wrong.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
And they were searching for you know what is it?
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Text? Some big guy who was, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
A capacity, the physical.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Loner, didn't have a wife, didn't have any of the things.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It was literally the opposite, right, And who did get
it right as Ted Bundy. They spoke with him and
Ted Bundy nailed it.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yep. That's one of the most bizarre things that they
go to speak with Ted Bundy in prison to get
his input on how to find this serial killer. And
I also know you're talking about just going back to
what you said before. You know, one of my questions
was going to be how much agency do you think
(13:33):
that TV movies should have over changing the truth and
not exactly being true to the facts. But you said
it so beautifully that this story, the way it's told,
it actually is enhanced by not only using the facts,
by creating these women, you have the ability to tell
(13:54):
a fuller story actually and make it not just about
the numbers and the the violence and the actual crime itself.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yes, and to see the family dynamic that was created
in our particular family, the lack of resources, a family
living on the edges where any moment that a paycheck
(14:25):
doesn't come through, they live in a mobile home that
those while it the set the artists, pardon me, the design,
the production design. I remember walking in net that set
(14:46):
and seeing the care. If you look at at Amy's
character's bedroom, the lonely vintage lamp and her rooms, it's
a girl's room. Her mother is trying. Her mother wanted
to give her a sense of home. And as Amy's
(15:07):
character says, this mother chooses men badly. She goes through men.
And it's not about sex with her, this mother. It's
about security and a man in their lives, even a
bad man who rapes her daughter in their home. And
(15:31):
this mother refuses to believe it. You know, she knows
it's true, right, but she punishes her daughter for saying
the truth. She defends this man because that's her survival.
She's a waitress and living on the edge. And it's
an existential moment for this mother that she chooses something
(15:56):
that is unconscionable. But I think we all know that
women without agency often make decisions yes are tragic. And
then sadly, her daughter hooks up with a guy who
will only use her.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yep, And this reveals how hurt people hurt people, and
abused people just go into that same cycle of abuse.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
And then Na talks about that. The voiceover this young
girl is a real philosopher, right right, she is thinking
things through and fate is the big theme. It's Greek
tragedy in a way. Fate. Are we responsible for our
for what happens to us? Or are we merely on
(16:52):
the train for the ride and nothing is going to
stop it? And how do you reconcile when you realize
both things are true?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Right, both things are true? And how you reconcile living
in a culture where liars like Gary Ridgewell, he was
a great liar. You see this in our story, and
you see it because they caught him. You know they
got him because he's so convincing.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Right. And then once he is actually caught in the
documentary footage that I've watched, you see this man tell
a lie straight to them. His face does not change.
And then they say, well, we know you're lying because
of this, and he says, right by yeah, and here's why,
(17:45):
and then gives an explanation of why. It's what really
strikes me about all of these cases, but this one
really in particular for both people, for the victims and
for Gary Bridgeway himself. It's everybody it's all about needing
love and care and mattering right, and the when you
(18:09):
don't have that or when you have it in a
very twisted and warped way, how that can inform your life.
And it's really sort of it's just jarring. It's very
moving because it's the simplest thing ever, but it's actually
the most important part of being human.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
I want to read something to you. Amy and I
are connected in a lot of ways, and not believe it.
She's by one of my dear friends who has now
become one of the top acting.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Coaches, Lee Lee Hilton Smith.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Lee coached Amy, I believe. When I was invited to
do this, I thought, let me just reach out and
maybe I'll talk to Amy too at some point, because
she could speak more for herself than.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
I love that. Yes, but.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Lee, I said, do you remember were you part of this?
And she said, yeah, I think so. But and I
told her that I was coming to do this, and
I even ask you, I want to be on a podcast.
I don't know whether she would because she's very protective
of the way she walks science. But I'm going to
read something to you that is directly related to what
(19:21):
you just said. How do we get in their minds
what they meaning? The people that are capable of this,
I think we know so many people who are who
are professional liars, who are compulsive, and they are sociopathic, narcissists,
(19:43):
and they are at the highest levels of everything, certainly
in our culture yep. But someone who is who will
be led to murder and the kind of murder that
this man dies did is worth noting to figure out
the psychology that what they were saying to themselves to
(20:07):
justify their actions. She at least worked on a couple
of these, so again she may be worth checking in with.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
That.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Even people like Ted Bundy, they to figure out their
psychology and what motivates the parts of themselves that were
broken that needed validation, and as Li says, it's fascinating
for me to figure out, not to figure out, but
to realize in research that they are bearing levels of
(20:39):
personal accomplishment.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yes, depending on how someone murders another person, Strangulation is
one thing because it's usually done from behind, which is
what the Green River killer did yep. And there are
other other modes of killing that you know are even
more personal because they have to do with being face
(21:03):
to face right, and not with a weapon that is
close and personal. When someone is feeling small and so
many aggressive crime scenes are moted by a feeling or
a fear of being inconsequential, there is a connection there.
(21:24):
If they feel inconsequential, then they can use this action
to feel consequential. It's not just hunting, right, success.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yes, success actually being acknowledged for yeah, their achievements. It
is you know, this is why I'm so fascinated by
these things. You know, people can say this is like
a morbid fascination. It really is about the human condition
and right, what we are capable as capable of as
(22:00):
human beings, of beautiful, great grand things and horrific things.
And I always think, you know, it's shortsighted for us
to kind of say put people in these bockets that,
oh that person's just crazy. You know, they've done horrible things,
they're just crazy. It's really how did we get there?
(22:23):
We are all human beings, and so this is again
why I really feel like this particular series really aims
to focus in on that how did we get there?
How did these women come to this decision to be
where they are? Or oftentimes you know, they don't have
(22:46):
any they have no other way to go.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yes, I as I was watching it. What also rang
so true is they were in this story manipulate by men.
This young this young gal is abused by the man
that her mother brings in the house.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Mm hmm. And she has no other reference, right.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
That's and then she chooses. She falls in love with
a very charming, sexy young guy who you think, well,
they're they're they're they're matched in ways that makes sense.
And he's a drug addict, and he he pimps her
to get drugs. He sleeps with somebody else, not somebody
(23:31):
that she cares about, not somebody who forces themselves upon her.
But she makes a choice to give up her body
for the sake of a guy who who she does love,
who she does trust, and who is also hooking her
on drugs and the manipulation of men. The killer to
(23:56):
make these young women think that he's safe. He's on
a suite, he talks about his kids, he talks about
his wife.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I was so struck by that that that is really
it's so diabolical to carry a picture of your child
to put these women at ease. So did you once
you didn't? I know you said at the start that
you didn't know much about the case before you started
the series, but did you do research on it at
(24:26):
that point? How much did you learn? Did you want
to know more or did you want to keep it
more about just the story of you and your daughter
in a script?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Of course, I read the script, so you know, you
never don't do a movie without reading the script. And
that script was enough for me to understand I'm serving
something dark, but my role in it is about that
the average person miss saying what's going on right underneath
(25:04):
their eyes, and the desperation that people who are on
the edges of security or insecurity with your economic status
walk through all the time, and how you have to deflect.
(25:24):
You can't let all of the threats come in because
you would be worn out. Yes, I was playing during
that time. I'd been playing and I still do a
lot of polished women, women of privilege, women who had access,
women who were strong, who had their own agency. This
(25:45):
character doesn't, and that was interesting for me. I'm the
character actress, so I always am grateful for the opportunity
to explore something else, and I don't think at that point, Yeah,
I hadn't started playing being killers myself, and now I
have played quite a few killers.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
This is another question I wanted to ask you. You know,
I don't think I have ever played someone. First of all,
I've never played somebody who's a real person who existed
in history. But nor have I played someone who is
so like the circumstances are so dark and so bleak.
So how did that? How did it or didn't it
(26:41):
stay with you on the on the daily, both while
you're on set, but then in the aftermath, like, how
did it impact your.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
You possibly shooting this, I remember, I remember the pain
of hurting Amy, and my character hurts hers physically and psychologically.
And I remember in that mobile home the tenderness with
(27:13):
which it was decorated, the homeliness that was there, and
the compression of the size of the space and how
trapped they felt. And then at the end when she's gone.
We worked hard on my character going from presentational and
going out into the world and trying to look younger
(27:35):
than she is and dressed up for her waitress job,
chose frosted lip gloss that I chose to put on
while she wants to tell me something really hard and
I'm rushing and I'm so self involved that I never
even I ask what's wrong, but I don't take the
(27:55):
time to listen. I don't really want to know. And
by the end I see this woman who has is
paying the price for her ignorance, for her willful ignorance.
And we chose to have me sitting on the outside
of the trailer on a step which you want here
(28:16):
come in and out of. She's she's on the outside
of her life now and once again she's putting something
to her mouth to silence the thoughts, to soothe, and
it's this time it's a long nick yep beer.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
The feeling that I got in watching that was this
this woman who comes out of that tiny space and
now is sitting outside with this expansive world around her,
and she is downloading. She doesn't really have anything now,
(28:53):
like she's lost so much and all of that space
is just the vast us around her and she doesn't
she doesn't she's lost her child. It's a really poignant
it's a very uh. Yeah, I think it's just a
great choice.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
That was normal, right, you know, normally it was Yeah.
I don't know whether it was. I can't can't remember
if it was in the script that way. But Norma
saw it and we shot on a day we were shooting.
We shot in Winnipeg, Canada, which is the That's the
Prairie if you don't know, Yeah, Manitoba, it's the prairie.
(29:35):
And there it was the summer and there was a
huge storm coming up and you could see the clouds,
the gray just rolling in. And she knew that light
because that's where she's from. She knew the lights exactly right.
It was foreboding, It was heavy, and it's the mood
(29:59):
that we all need to wrap this thing up. And
it also looks like the Pacific northwest, right, it doesn't hit.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Oh, definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
The ions in the air are.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yes, yes, yes, dense right, that dense green and yeah, yeah.
How did it feel too, be shooting this and knowing
that this man is still alive that while you're I mean,
there are so many parts of this that just must
(30:33):
have been a lot to metabolize.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, you know, I hadn't seen John's portrayal at that point,
so I wasn't. I didn't feel as connected to Gary
Killer as I did to the Green River and the
people who live there whose lives he affected. They are
really smart, smart in sit into the narrative about how
(31:02):
many lives this man's actions touched. The families, of course,
of those who were lost to his actions, but the
teams of detectives and the judicial system members who were
working and failing and struggling and obsessed. I just want
(31:25):
to shout out. Every performance in this movie is so anchored.
It's again because we have the luxury of storytelling time
that you see, they can the camera can rest with someone,
the camera can reveal how they're haunted in the middle
of the night wondering why can't they crack this, why
(31:46):
can't they figure out? Tom Cavanaugh is so beautifully honest.
He plays the lead detective, Yes, lead detective who was
as a father. He's a religious man. You know, faith
is a big part of this story. Yes, he refers
to his faith. His daughter, his wife says at one
(32:08):
point when he's brought these pictures home, and she says,
you said you weren't going to bring this into our home,
into our house. They have young kids, and she says
that with a question. He said why, and she says,
you need help, And he says, I pray every day
and it's just it's sincere honest, and she said, I'm
(32:29):
not talking about that you need to get a new computer,
but he is relying on his faith. He needs help
and he's going to faith for that.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
And I also felt it was really interesting how you know,
as you say, this man has children and small children
in the home, and so how do you Number one,
you can't separate at a certain point, work and life,
home life, they are always going to mesh in some regard,
but also this idea of how do you share horrific
(33:08):
things with children? Right? You can't completely shield them from it, right,
and then at a certain point you have to be
able to And I know this from my own experience
of friends having very very tragic things happen that we
have had to share with our daughter. And you know,
(33:29):
you can't just shield it and act like everything's fine,
because kids know. Kids understand instinctually when something does not
feel right, so you can't lie to them. But you
also don't want to just dump all of this information
on them. And I loved that scene where his daughter
comes up to him, you know, and says something to
the effect of Daddy, like, I'm proud of you are
(33:52):
I understand what you're doing and you get this says
that this child knows he's doing something very very challenging
and very dark, but it's important. And I thought that
was beautiful.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, you know, it makes me think of the series
that I'm called Joe Picket. It's about a game warden
in Wyoming who ends up solving crimes and murders. And
it's a it's a wonderful best selling novel series, and
we did two seasons on Paramount Plus. And he's a
(34:29):
family man and crime ends up coming to his to him,
to his family. You think about what kids who are
exposed to crimes see, and in this story Joe Picket,
what draws him to being a protector is that he
(34:52):
himself grew up in an abusive household. Right, And that's
the same thing.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
That's the same story with Tom.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
So we we know kids live it now. I mean
the media exposes them all the time, everything, right, you
know the world. How do you protect the innocence? I'm
not sure? But what you what you get in this
story is someone who grew up with that wound, that damage,
(35:27):
and and how that becomes his secret now his superpower,
not secret, but his superpower, right, right, And we need
those heroes. We need the broken, the wounded warriors.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yes, yes, I think that that gives so much. Those
are the things that I'm interested in, is you know,
what we all go through as human beings and the
You know this certainly in American culture also, we don't
like to talk about difficult things, and we like everything
to be very tied up and pretty and young and petite,
(36:07):
and you know, life is just simply not that. And
when we don't incorporate all of the good and the bad,
you know, there's great hope and going through challenge and
seeing someone who can overcome that, not only overcome it,
but actually use what they went through in order to
(36:32):
inform their life in a positive way and to influence
other people, like to actually use the difficulty to come
through the other side. I think it's just a beautiful
message and an important one.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
And it's what fairy tales, the good Ones, grit Ye did,
and those Greek tragedies Esophocles, Eschylus, Euripides, they write about murder, patricide.
It's there. It's in all of those stories, these ancient
stories when our humans were were gathering to understand themselves.
(37:13):
What catharsis is used and meant to do. And then
Grim's recognized it. You know, the European culture new to
put it in the context for children, right, right, we
find it now in a lot of ways in Marvel.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
We keep telling these stories. We need to keep telling
these stories. And AI. I just was seeing something on
my today about AI chat bots that come into the
lives of young people, sayteen fourteen, fifteen, Yes, at the
(37:57):
time when they need to be able to explore the
flaws in their judgment, to prepare them to make decisions
on their own. Yes, not maybe prior to that age,
but that age. As they are developing independence and thinking,
(38:18):
they need pushback, they need challenged. And these AI bots
are sycophantic. Yes, you're right about everything.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Everything you do is right everything. Yes, oh, I agree.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
That will handicap them as they grow older. In the
real world. It isn't about protecting all the time. Sometimes
it's just exposing and exploring and managing consequences with them.
That's why it's such a tight rope to be a
parent now. But we are uncharted territory with our younger
(38:55):
members of our culture being shielded in a way that.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Does not serve is handicapping them. I think that it
was exactly the right word. I boy, do I think
about this on a daily basis. And my daughter's thirteen,
so she's right in the heart of it. So just
a last couple of questions, So, how do you what's
your feeling on closure? So in terms of you know,
(39:27):
so the detective has said recently because Gary Ridgeway now
is apparently very close to death, but he's still in
prison obviously. And I think someone asked Dave Reikert, the detective,
you know, how does he feel about closure? Does he
(39:48):
think that's going to give the victims family's closure? And
I mean he says no, I agree. How do you
feel about this idea of closure after some thing like this?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
I had two Yeah, I have two thoughts. Vengeance is
a very satisfying emotion. It is very It's as human
as any other that we have, right, I mean, road rage,
we get it, We understand you. You want to protect
these people will not get it. And he pled guilty.
(40:25):
He turned himself and and and and he he solved
the he helped answer the questions. So there's that at
least they know the rights, loved ones knew and they
needed to.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Know which was we should say, I'm not sure in
case some of the listeners don't know they they gave
him that particular plea in order to give some of
the victim's family some sort of, if not closure and
understanding of what happened to their loved one.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
So they knew their loved one was indeed the victim.
This is where they died, This how they died. That
sounds horrific, but also I think we know through psychology
not knowing can be worse. Yes, rest, yes you never
get to rest, so that I don't think it was
a wrong call for the judicial system to offer that.
(41:19):
What I also know from my psychiatrist's husband is that
many people who are behind bars will never have Those
who are guilty will never have remorse. It's not possible.
They do not live there. There are people who will
never feel that. The sociopathic narcissist again that we have
(41:43):
populated with we make decisions for the rest of the
world currently currently remorse, they have no empathy. They We
will never change that about them. Our job is to
foster empathy, to foster understanding, to foster healthy environment so
(42:08):
that young people that are perhaps on that path may
have an intervention right earlier, sooner rather than later. I
did a movie, a true story, crime story that I produced.
Giancarlo Esposito and I starred in a television film called
Five Desperate Hours, a true story of a man who
(42:31):
invaded a woman's home while she was there. He was
running from the law. He held her captive in Durham,
North Carolina. She was a duke professor. She just happened
to be home. He chose the door that he was
entering not because he knew she was there, because he
was running from the cops. He had stolen a car
and was being chased. And they got to know each
(42:53):
other in that five hour period, and she not only
helped him surrender, but was there through his trial. She
wasn't the one who was pressing charges. It was the
person whose car he had taken and the robbery that
he had committed prior to He was desperate. He was desperate,
(43:17):
and he tried to take his own life in their home.
In that home, it was the anniversary of his brother's
suicide that was creating this storm within him on the
day that he committed this crime, And she herself had
understood that because she herself had tried to take her
own life at one point they bonded this And we
(43:39):
tell this story because the conclusion to it is that
they stayed close even while he was wow prison sentence,
which wasn't long, but significant, and that understanding these two
people were so vastly different, had something in common.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yes, that humanness, the ability to actually connect with another
human being, is what is the saving grace of life.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
And these I wonder if the people who lost their
fam their their loved one to the Green River killer,
if they found each other through the trial, if they
stayed in touch, if they were able to share the unspeakable,
the horrific that nobody else will understand. That may be
where the healing understanding comes far more than a sense
(44:27):
of closure. That that Gary Rittel will ever feel anything.
Him being gone may not shift for anyone nearly as
much as sharing an understanding of loss right somebody who's
been through it.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Sharon, you're just the best.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
I'm so pleased to be part of this. Thank you
for inviting me. My role it is not big, but
my examination, my appreciation, my understanding of this is increased
by your interest in this. And I tell you, people
should take some time and watch this because it is
it's human nature and tenderness, the good and the bad
(45:28):
in a very very poetically told story. And I give
all credit to the people that wrote it, John Pielmeyer,
that directed it, Norma Bailey, the actors who phenomenal cast
allround life into it and took in a real hard truth.
(45:49):
Give it back to us with the humanity that helps
us understand each other.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Yeah, well, people can check it out at streaming on
several different platforms. The capture of the Green River Killer.
Sharon Lawrence, your sparkling star. I am so happy that
you spent this time with us today. And is there
anything where can people find you? Is there anything else
(46:14):
you wanted to put out there?
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Well, I mentioned Five Desperate Hours. You can find that
on YouTube. Benjeane Carlo Weisposito.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Well he is amazing.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Yeah, what else do I need to say? And I
talked about Joe Pickett because that's a wonderful show. Michael Dorman.
If you know Michael Dorman, he was in for All Mankind,
he was in Yes Patriot on Amazon hit playing a
reluctant serial killer. He's on I think it's called Frontier
and Australian series. He's great. David Allen Greer is in
(46:48):
that series.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
I love David. Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Julianne Gwill Skywalker Hughes, who you'll hear more about. She's
in the New Little House on the Prairie, but she's
Miild in ours. She's a tween now, a child in
ours who who goes through some interesting stuff as as
I was saying, you know children who witness hard things
and how that's processed. I'm in a play in New
(47:14):
York and January called pen Pals Loving Story, a very loving, loving.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Story, beautiful ware. What theater.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
It's at the Daryl Roth Theater. I'll be there January
seventh through the eighteenth. Marie McCormick and I are starring
together in this story of women who were connected as
pen pals. They were fourteen years old in nineteen forty
eight and they stayed pen pals four a long time.
One is in New New Jersey and the others in Sheffield, England.
So we bring oh beautiful truth to this and it's great.
(47:43):
The hallmark of it all is wrapping up now, but
you can always find some good comfort in Hallmark's. Mine
is the Grand Old Opry Christmas, we filmed the one
hundred year anniversary of the Grand Old Opry and I
got to live at the Opry basically for a week,
and we featured that that very American institution. So well.
(48:06):
And then I'll be doing Steel Magnolias, a play at
Playmaker's Repertory Theater in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. That's my
alma mater. You unc Chapel Hill.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Oh really, yes, wait when are you doing that? My
family is now in North Carolina, so they live in Pinehurst.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
Fantastic. It's an easy drive. We run April the eighth
through the twenty sixth. Beth Grant, who you may know,
oh greatest character actress. Yes, I art, will be in
that play.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
And I will continue to do a solo play about
Catherine Graham that I've been doing for a while called
The Shot. It's an important story about the publisher of
the Washington Post who was publisher during the Watergate eras
and the great but it's the story of her personal life,
the struggles that she had. Her husband had bipolar disorder
(48:57):
and took his life six three and three days later,
she took over the Post, but she suffered a great
deal with his his suffering, and we understand how she
became the woman that she is, a reluctant but powerful
leader because of the struggles that she faced. So I'm
very proud of that. That piece, which well dates, will
(49:19):
be determined for Okay, I've been doing it for five
years now, so great. It's out there.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
And you'll put it out. Your social media is at
Sharon E. Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Sharon E stand for Elizabeth. That's that's my name, my mama.
Every once in a while when she was calling to
be from back of the house to come home, it
was Sharon Lisbeth.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Oh, well, thank you again so much. This has been
an absolute pleasure. You're such a pro and a lovely spirit,
and I am honored that you are here today with me.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Thank you, thank you, and I love that we have
Lee Hilton Smith in common. She's be worth worth talking to.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
She I'm going to contact her now.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Congratulations on this.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
I enjoyed our time.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Love hate me too.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
I want to hear what cases you all are interested
in hearing about. What are you watching that you want
us to talk about? What actors or producers or directors
do you want to hear from, Hit us up in
our DMS at Killer Thriller Pod on Instagram and TikTok
and let us know and make sure to follow the
pod on socials and subscribe to Amy and TJ Presents
(50:30):
wherever you listen to podcasts. And that will wrap us
up for today until next time.
Host
Tori Spelling
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