September 10, 2019 • 32 mins
In this episode, Stephanie Ruhle speaks to journalist Dana Canedy, musician Questlove, and comedian Michael Ian Black about how to traverse the cultural minefields around us with genuine care and concern, and why simply having good intentions isn’t good enough.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and
I heart radio. There's a woman I think about all
the time. I met her two years ago when we
were on vacation at a dude ranch and upstate New York.
She was a waitress and the owner of the restaurant
came and said, UM, we have a waitress here and
she'd love to talk to you. So I said great,
So she came over. She said, I see you on
(00:26):
the news, I see you on TV. I want to
tell you I love the President. I love him because
he loves me. He came to see me. You you
think I'm white trash. And she goes this restaurant where
I work at. They give me enough hours that I
can't get a second job, but they don't give me
enough hours to get healthcare. I'm a mom. I have
(00:47):
two single daughters. Their kids have to go to school
up here. We have the worst public schools with no
special services. Both of my grandchildren need them. So all
I have is the bureaucracy in town, and nobody answers
the phone own. But the president he came up here,
he had a rally and I said, but what did
he offer you? In that rally, what were the policies,
(01:08):
And she goes, I don't know very much about policies,
but I know somebody who's now living in the White
House came and talked to us. And I can't get
anybody at social services to even answer the phone. And
she said, where you live, you have charities that you
raise money for, you know, the Boys Club, the Girls Club.
And I said yes, because I do. And she goes,
(01:28):
up here, we don't have any of that, And then
she laid it out. She said, here's the deal. My
grandchildren aren't washing up on shore in a boat, so
my story is not ugly enough to be on the
cover of your newspaper. But look at me. I'm not
pretty enough to go to your house for dinner. And
here's the thing. On a whole lot of levels, she's right.
(01:49):
Maybe we don't see her, and maybe we don't talk
about her, but what she's asking for is compassion for her.
We are living in complicated time. We've never been able
to communicate so easily, yet dialogue itself is dying. The
line between what one can and cannot say is absolutely clouded.
(02:12):
We are losing friends and cutting off family members over
things that should make us better and smarter over progress.
Progress is uncomfortable. Hence our latest endeavor, the Modern Rules Podcast.
What we'd like to say are compelling conversations during these
culturally complicated times, and they're not. Actually. I'm Stephanie Rule,
(02:45):
MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent, and this is Modern Rules.
In this season of Modern Rules, I'm going to be
spending time unpacking the harriest conversations from privilege to political correctness,
(03:07):
to try and figure out how we can navigate this
changing world and break through to actually talk with and
learn from the people who disagree with us, and maybe
just maybe learn something along the way. Together on Modern Rules,
we're going to get into this idea of political correctness.
(03:29):
Lots of well intentioned people say things that come across offensive.
Some of those people need to tighten up their game.
But on the other hand, where some people are expecting
us to be so sensitive to so many groups, the
outcome is others are shutting down and leaving the conversation. I,
for one, believe the more people in the conversation the better.
(03:51):
So my goal is to try to find some progress.
So I recruited three tour guides as I try to
make my way through this cultural mind field, head of
the Pulitzer Organization, and Dana Kennedy Quest Love and Michaelean Black,
my first guest author and journalist Dana Kennedy, who is
no stranger to speaking her mind. So I started the
conversation by talking about that waitress. So two years ago,
(04:17):
Andy and I and the kids were an upstate New
York and we met a waitress who said, I want
to talk to you, and I want to tell you
what I love President Trump. And I said, sure. Now,
that woman is a forgotten American who had everything she
said had tons of racist overtones in it. She goes
up here in upstate New York, we don't have the
after school programs and all the charities that you raise
(04:38):
money for that the sisters in places like New York
City have nobody cares about us, and she said, the
President cares about me, and she said the sisters. So
it was clearly a racial judgment. And so what do
we do about that person? And as a black successful
woman who grew up in Kentucky and has lived a
successful life in New York City, what do we do
about that? Number One, I don't think she gets a
(05:02):
past because she's racist. That's just not acceptable because the
air quote sisters she speaks of have the same issues
and they're more like her than she realizes. That's number one. Two.
I'd love to go back to her today and see
how that work out for you. Like this sense that
someone is coming into a new administration riding in on
a white horse and was going to save her, I
(05:24):
will bet you cash money she would tell you that
didn't happen. It's not gonna happen, And so it's more
of a pipe dream, I think than anything else. The
other thing about that is familiarity breaths respect and ultimately
friendship and then love, or it gives us the best
chance at it. So I've had people say to me,
my whole life mostly has it released to journalists, journalists
(05:45):
can't be trusted journalists or whatever. Long before the whole
enemy of the people stick which I believe it is
a stick came into play, but oh but not you,
Or if someone says something about black people and says
in front of me, but not you. So once you're
sitting across from someone, um, everything changes and once the
(06:05):
person realizes, wow, this person doesn't hate me. You know.
Actually they actually they're human just like I am, and
they have the same concerns about their kids that I do.
All of that falls away one person at a time.
But we're sitting across from each other less and less,
and that's my fear, Dana. I think that's the answer, though,
is that we have to find ways to put each
(06:26):
other in the same room. I live in two different worlds,
I always say, and I'm often out of context. If
I'm walking around, you know, doing the grocery shopping in
my sweats on the weekend, the assumption is one thing
about me. I'm that sister that she's talking about, right,
But the minute somebody either hears me speak or learns
(06:46):
about my career, suddenly I'm everyone's best friend. Oh my god,
you're so quote unquote articulate. You're so smart, um, you're
so interesting, you're so strong. I'm grateful that people see
me in that context at times, to the extent that
I am the things I was those things when I
was walking around my sweats and you didn't know who
I was. I love that you brought up the word articulate,
(07:07):
because it is this hot button word and I hear
arguments actually on both sides. So explain to me. And
I want this to be the safest place. I want
you to explain to me what's wrong with what's wrong
with it? Because here's my fear. I hear from people
who say, I'm trying to say something nice, I'm trying
to call someone articulate, And now I've been at the
(07:29):
same time, why do you assume it's on the sense?
So if I go in anywhere, I happen to meet
with the bank president or CEO of a company, and
we have a meeting, and at the end, imagine me, uh,
sitting there with a let's just make this up, uh,
sixty two year old white man who went to Harvard,
and I wouldn't shook his hands, said my god, you're articulate.
(07:51):
You look at me like I've lost my mind. Why
wouldn't he be articulate. He's accomplished, well educated. Of course,
it's particulate. That's the ticket to get in the door.
But it's special or different or other or stands out
often when you look like me. But Dana, you are special,
(08:12):
and you do stand out a special unicorn. I'm not
There are thousands of black women in this country, getting
up every day as a single mom, like I am
going to work. I have a high profile position. You
are extraordinary, Dana, Well, thank you, But you know what,
I know a lot of other extraordinary people, and they're
not all black women. I mean, you're extraordinary, but I
(08:34):
bet people don't walk around everybody telling you you're extraordinary.
I don't walk through life thinking of myself as extraordinary.
I think of myself as a mother who has to
put food on the table, who has to teach my
child certain values before he leaves my home. You know,
who has to have who has to have a relationship
with God that's important to me, all those things, And
I'm gonna tell you something I say all the time.
(08:54):
I think I've said this to you and you're in
your home. Um, there are people I had to have
and to me. This weekend, I was dropping my son
off at the airport and there was one woman checking
us in through security and she I was handing her my,
my tag, my UM his boarding pass and this man
comes up and he has his boarding pass on his
phone and he literally stepped in front of me and
(09:17):
held up the pass so she could put him through.
And I said, excuse me, I'm sorry, did you not
see me standing here? Right? And so she he ended
up apologizing and so forth. But we can be invisible,
we can be misunderstood, and that can't happen for everybody,
but when you're a person of color, it often happens more.
(09:38):
And so the sense of entitlement that can happen that
you speak about all the time, I think is very real.
I say this people all the time. For anyone who
thinks they're better than another person, you're only better than
them until you need their bone. Maural life is the
great equalizer. But I'm saying there are people who really
think that they're more entitled. They're entitled to cut the line,
they're entitled to seconds before one else they even has first.
(10:01):
They were titled to the better schools because they can
pay for them. They were titled entitled to better life
because they believe they actually worked, they had no leg up,
and that if everybody else just got over it already
and worked really hard and buckled down, you can get
there too. And in fact, they point to me as
proof of that right. And while on one hand, there
are a lot of people like me, I believe when
(10:23):
you live in a segregated world. You wouldn't know that.
We've got so much more to talk about. We'll be
right back after a quick break. Welcome back to modern rules.
(10:43):
I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior. But there's a
long distance between that person who cut you in line
at the airport then the person who's calling you articulate.
And you can say to me, no, Stephanie, But is
there some break or for giveness to give two people
who are trying? And this is why I'm saying this
(11:05):
because my fear right now is that we are getting
so in these tribes that we have to find some
level of give because I worry that we're going to
silence people. And so those people who call me articulated.
I may be frustrated I wrote my eyes, but I
don't hold it against them. I can hug that person.
I can have them in my house. I can laugh
(11:25):
at him. Let me tell you a really funny story.
You're all gonna love this. When I first started out
at the New York Times, um uh and the woman
I'm I'm telling this story because the woman who did this,
we're actually friends and we joke about it today. At
the time, it was not funny. I was brand new
and I was a business finance reporter, and um, the
reporters had to work a rotating weekend shift in case
(11:47):
news broke. And this was during a time when there
were a lot of mergers and acquisitions going on in
the banking industry. So I was working on a Sunday.
My shift was almost over and the mergers and acquisition
reporter came in. There was some huge deal going down
on a Sunday and she was frantic. So I get
my notebook hen pen and said, hey, listen, how can
I help you. I'll stay as long as you need.
And she's like, oh my god, great, thank you. I'll
(12:09):
come back and just give me two minutes. She goes
to her desk and she scribbled something down right, And
this gets the again. The point of the story is,
yes you can. You can start where I'm about to
tell you and end up where this is a woman
who's a friend. And she comes back to my desk
a few minutes later, she hands me the piece of
paper where she was scribbling down and a key to
(12:29):
her apartment, says, I've left my oven on. Could you
just please go and turn it off? What? Uh? Huh?
And so I had a choice there. And this is
another thing I teach my son all the time, and
I speak about this a lot. When life hands you
whatever it's going to hand you, whether it's something like that,
which by the way, is minor, or something like the
tragedy that I've had in my life that you know,
where my fiance was killed in combat and Iraq when
(12:51):
Oursonan was six months old. You can really get frustrated,
which I did, and angry or heart or whatever you
want to feel. But you can take the high road
or you can let it bring you low. And so
what I did was I picked up my coat because
clearly my shift was over. I wasn't doing that, and
turned off my computer and said, that sounds like a
personal problem. You need to call your super right away. UM,
(13:13):
but if I could use my journalism skills in any
way to help you, just let me know. And I
walked out. And so the whole next week I had
a group of friends at the Times, UM, some of
whom were black reporters, and we it became a joke
for the week, which really allowed me to let go.
People would say, hey, by the way of some dry cleaning,
can you pick it up, or would you order me pizza?
(13:34):
How did you become friends? Because Dana, that was many
years ago, and you learned to forgive her, and right now,
within months, you forgave her with the month. So the
way we got past it, I love her. She cringes
when I tell the story. And I never tell her name,
you know, because I wouldn't do that because she's my friend,
she said, Dana, and I think she really believes that.
(13:55):
She said, I thought we were friends. Why I'd only
been there a few months, and you know we weren't
that close. But in her mind, she said, I was
asking you as a friend, and that's a lie. Well whatever,
maybe it was a rationalization, but she was not coming
from a place she believes of I think you're less
than and I think your value is in you know,
turning off my oven, right, And I said, okay, you know,
(14:18):
I accept that. But also, even if it was a lie,
she realized she had said and done something wrong and
felt horrible about it. Um And so then we just
started making a joke of it, and over time she
got more and more embarrassed about it, you know, as
I joked about it. And when we moved on how
hard is it right now for people to have an
independent thought, to maintain the highroad, to have a long view.
(14:40):
And I turned you to social media. On social media
right now, there's no room for nuance or forgiveness or
a variety of opinions. On social media, it is performance art.
You play a role, you play a character, and the
moment you deviate from that, you are getting full late.
So it's harder to do in your line of work.
But I people minimize social media in your life. Who
(15:01):
says we have to be slaved to it. I am
not on social media that much for my job as
I need to be. I am, uh, but tone it down,
turn it off, disconnect. Social media is the epicenter of
where we're labeling and blaming. It's easy to hide. Somebody,
uh sent a nasty tweet about me last year, something
(15:22):
about either the way I looked or something I've done. Kid,
and I just very funny said, you know, that really
was a bad hair day. And the guy says, oh, ma'am,
I'm so sorry. He never thought I would see it.
He thought I was so you know, I don't know
in the air that I would never see it. And
we laughed about it, you know, And I don't laugh
everything off. I don't want you to think that people
have to feel whatever they feel, right. Um, but I
(15:46):
was some anonymous, really not true human being on the
other side of his you know, phone or computer. He
never thought I was going to respond. Social media and
labeling takes me to another subject that I want to
talk about. Race. It is a massively important topic. I
(16:07):
worry that maybe the label of racism or racist is
getting overused in a way that could hurt us in
terms of race relations. And I'm just gonna give a
quick example. There's lots of newspaper articles out. I think
it was a New York Times. It was saying Steveson
High School, which is sort of the number one gifted
and talented math public school, admitted only seven African American
(16:28):
students in the freshman class. And I was just trying
to make a nuance point on Twitter that while this
is an issue, this is not the same issue as
the college cheating scam about white privilege, you know, winner
take solve. I was trying to say, And in the
case of Stuyveson, it's a it's one single admissions test,
(16:48):
there's no interview, there's there, there there, there's nothing qualitative.
We either get this score or you don't. And so
I was just trying to say it's slightly different. And
as soon as I said that, my Twitter is filled
with you white, privileged racist. And my fear is, as
soon as people are saying that, you shut down, how
do we address, especially issues like privilege. Because the answer is, yes,
(17:13):
it's one exam and all those kids, many of whom
are from a diverse background, we're going to the public
failing public schools in New York City aren't prepared for
that test. But as soon as you're you're being labeled
a racist. I worry that identifying racial issues might worse
in race relationship. A couple of things. First of all,
(17:34):
just because somebody calls your racist doesn't mean you are.
But it does make you want to get out of
the conversation. Sure it does, Sure, but that's where you
have to resist. Just as people have to resist using
that label on people who um aren't racist or may
not be racist, others have to say, I'm going to
stay in the conversation. I'm not going to give that
so much power and so much weight that it shuts
me down. Because I've decided on part of the solution.
(17:58):
Something I've been struggling with these is is how we
can find a way to explore things that we do
not understand, get somebody else's perspective without actually stepping on
a cultural landmark. Is there a way to cover these
dicey topics and be genuinely curious without getting yourself in
hot water? So I turned to someone who I trust,
(18:20):
who knows I have good intentions, and he certainly knows
a lot. My friend, writer, entrepreneur, musician, all around superstar
quest love to get some answers. I want to talk
to you about how hard it is to tell the
truth right now and how hard it is to get real.
(18:40):
So I always joked at the young people that I
work with or I call them woke nation, and I
think about what it's like on social media right now,
or it's very hard to share an opinion that's outside
this designated brand. Can I ask you something that, yeah,
of course, are they woke or are they performative woke? Okay?
Right there? Right there? Okay, Because performative look is a
(19:04):
syndrome that's threatening not to go away. How do you
define performative woke? I guess. In short, you could say
that what social media allows you to do, kind of
like old school Nintendo with the gold coins, is you
get to collect cloud points. You know, so with the
right sentence, in the right paragraph, in the right structure,
(19:26):
you can collect cloud points. Now, do you believe that
there's a way of informing people of what's going on
that otherwise wouldn't know? Like I know for the fact
that most of my friends are at this point exhausted
from watching the news, So I have a bunch of
hashtag I just can't. I just can't. I just can't,
(19:47):
and the news is exhausting. So I mean, for a
certain few to inform them I think is wise. But
then there's people that take kind of that position. And
I'm not saying it's fake concern under fake outrage, but
there's people that I call performative book that I'd feel
(20:07):
don't necessarily walk the walk or talk the talk. You know,
how dangerous do you think it is? Because I fear
it's going to get people to stop talking. I mean,
it's a real thing, though, And that's the thing is
things can happen in real time, and voices can be
heard instantly, and we do live in cancel culture, and
so right now it's what I would call the landmine
(20:30):
era where we live in where you just have to
be extremely careful and what your moves are in what
your approaches. Um, I don't know if it's crazy more
or less than just maybe we just weren't aware of
the outrage and I'm in for certain things. Yeah, I
do believe that this is becoming a genuine surprise to
(20:53):
people that weren't aware that black people felt a certain
way about things. People are going to have to do
real research, and that's the problem. You are so much
more than a musician. We can't even list the amount
of businesses that you're in. How do you feel when
people call you articulate? I rolled my eyes in my head,
(21:14):
you know, you know what a compliment in their minds.
I used to But see, that's the whole superhuman subhuman.
But what if it's not. What if someone saying, man,
you're super impressive. What if they're not saying it about
your race. What if they're saying it about you because
you are all right? So look all right, the same
way that Black Lives Matter has a secret ellipsus at
(21:37):
the end of that sentence, which you know, missing a
word too t o O. In two, I realized that
I'm gonna hear hashtag speak so well, um, I didn't
expect this. I didn't expect a deep conversation with you.
And it's it's because for at least the first three
years of my career from six, that's all I heard, like, Wow,
(22:01):
you're so amazing to talk to you. No, no, no no,
And I mean at the time, it was like, Okay,
I have to get in the doors somehow. So I'm
not going to say, well, what do you mean by that?
Do you mean that we're all not like? You know?
I know that the end of that sentences as opposed
to other rappers that I interview that don't hold a
conversation with me this word research. Is there a place
(22:26):
for it in a thoughtful way? You Well, I talked
to people. I know you like I talk to people.
So I'm the I'm the bridge between a lot of opinions.
I will ask everyone what they think, what they think,
and that's the thing. I don't know everything, but I
(22:46):
ask everything, and that's that's the problem. People don't go
outside their comfort zones. Okay, so I'm gonna go out
on a limb and say I believe that you know
and respect me, and you believe I'm well intentioned. Is
there a place for me, in a truly curious way
to ask a question like I know it's not appropriate,
(23:09):
I can't remember why. But is there a way to
actually approach and answer that question without burning a house down?
I feel as though there are enough op edge and
enough blogs out there where you can discreetly, quietly google
what what opinions are to sort of get the gist
(23:31):
of you know, how deep is the water? Like I
don't again? Which if you okay, if you're vacationing next weekend,
you happen to be on the yacht, I would think
that you wouldn't just dive in head first. You would
ask questions about are there sharks in there? You would
you want to know how deep the water is? And
(23:51):
people like you and we are lucky enough to have
massive platforms, we better do our homework before we run
our mouth. But not even for us, I think general,
only for everybody. I think all those answers can be
found a lot of times people will just ask the
question and my my number one response on social media
(24:12):
is mostly Google's your best friend. Google's your best friend,
and you know yes, Could I have just given them
the answer, how many albums have you had? Seventeen? No,
I would say, like Google's your best friend, Like I
want you to do the work. You can find that out.
There's an easy way to find that out. We have
(24:34):
so much more to get into. We'll be back right
after a quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. As
complicated as it is for me on live TV every day,
there's one profession I think it's worse for comedy. Comedians,
(24:57):
for all these years have made a living making people laugh,
kind of leaning on, pressing on stereotypes, and now we're
living at a time when even stereotyping someone at the
get go can knock you out of the game. So
I talked to Michael ian Black about how complicated all
this is for a guy in his profession. Do you
(25:20):
see the impact of this sort of cancel culture. We're
deleting people that we don't like their behavior, We're labeling them.
There's always examples of individuals who have been through this
and have had their lives really hurt um some cases fairly,
in fewer cases unfairly. I don't know anybody in media
(25:40):
who hasn't men in media who hasn't like looked at
their own past behavior and gone, jeez, did I step
over a line somewhere? Did I do something in a
different place before it was But things come up from
twenty years ago, thirty years ago, like in the case
of well Joe Biden, I guess who. I have no
idea what his intentions are one way or the other,
(26:00):
but probably didn't think twice about whatever he was doing
in that moment because it's the way he was and
the line was in a different place. And now he's
being forced to think about that. Being forced to think
about it is a good thing. That's what I'm saying.
Being forced out is something else right And and to
this point we haven't seen him forced out of anything.
I saw you this year try to give some grace
and space to Louis c K. And you were annihilated,
(26:23):
you retreated after the Louis c K thing. But your
intention is the same. Have you thought more about it?
Is there room for someone to come back who has
gone down? Well? One of the reasons I picked Louis
specifically was because I thought he was unique in his
ability to address his own foibles and that if anybody
could do it, he could. What's been disappointing about Louis
(26:46):
specifically is that he has chosen the exact opposite path
since then, and the fact that he's done that has
made me actually feel worse and more foolish for having
come to his defense in the beginning. I think everybody thought,
I thought that Louis made a career. Louis specifically made
a career of talking about what a scumbag he is
(27:08):
and all the things that are wrong with Louis. And
yet when it came to this thing, this thing that
everybody knew about and everybody exp effected him to address,
he hasn't done it in an intelligent, cogent, or humble way.
I think he had an opportunity to come back if
(27:30):
he had done that, and maybe he still has that opportunity,
but his behavior since then has indicated that he's unwilling
or unable to do it. I don't know. I don't
know if people can come back. I think somebody will
at some point, and we'll see how it goes for them.
But that's also because sometimes you have to say you're
sorry and be sorry sorrier than you want to be right,
(27:55):
so for you, for me, there there can be instances,
especially on social media, where our words, because we're public,
people of prominence, we can express a view, and even
if we have no bad intention, if it is offensive
to someone, we have to ask ourselves, are we truly
sorry that that person got offended? And oftentimes we don't
(28:15):
want to say we're sorry, because it's like we're admitting guilt. Right,
But if you, if you, if you come from a
place where you say there's no such thing as an
ugly truth, and I am sorry that what I said sucked,
I'm sorry that I did that, And and that maybe
is the case of Louis or others where they're still
so stuck in on technicalities or but this, but that
(28:37):
instead of just you gotta truly fall on the sword,
and people don't seem to want to. It's really hard
for men in particular, to be that vulnerable, to expose
themselves in that way. That's hard. That's really hard stuff.
Maybe the hardest thing for men is to, you know,
essentially just stand there naked and say take your shot.
(28:59):
I deserve it. That's hard, and you would hope that
more men would learn to develop those skills. We didn't
let them until now. No, I don't know that we're
able to to this point. I struggle with it constantly.
You know, I just screw up at home, you know,
I pissed off my wife about something. It's really really,
really hard for me to say I screwed up and
(29:20):
I'm sorry and to own that. It's really hard. Then again,
she almost never apologizes to me. But we didn't. We
don't allow. When men are vulnerable, we judge them for it,
and we think they're weak. And when women are we
think they're weak. You can be confident and vulnerable at
(29:42):
the same time. Traditionally we don't allow. We don't, we
don't allow for that. I'm just I'm trying to process
whether I agree with you that we don't allow women
to have that same vulnerability. Listen, we let, we let them,
and then we love it because we're like, you can
be vulnerable and cry because it keeps us nice and week. Yeah,
I think maybe that's right. Sure, we their tears are welcome,
(30:04):
and then we are and then we will keep them
right there in their place. I think when a man
does that, when a man kind of sheds those public
tears in a weird way, it can end with contempt
for him instead of appreciation. So here's what I'm hearing
about political correctness. There is no clear answer, but there's
(30:27):
also no political correctness police. It's going to come and
arrest you. Now, what I learned is just because you
have good intentions, that isn't necessarily good enough. And while
we can't expect everyone to be hyper aware of every
person's perspective and play my commitment, what I'm gonna do
(30:48):
is to actually think a little bit harder about it
and implement it for those around me. If we can
all try a little bit more and get out of
our camps, actually think we're gonna huge progress. So that
is what I'm gonna do. This has been our conversation
on political correctness. Thanks for listening, bringing in open mind,
and helping me create the modern rules. That's it for
(31:21):
today's episode. I'm your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very
special thanks to the extraordinary people who made this happen.
My producers Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen, and Anne Bark, Audio
Michael Biett for booking and wrangling the amazing guests who
joined us, Julian Weller for editing and bill Plaques, Michael
Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise. Special thanks
(31:43):
to Seve Lick Tid, Barbara Rap, Jonathan Wald, Redugo, Holly
traz Nikki Etre, and Christina Everett. Our executive producers are
Conald Byrne and Mangesh Attigador, and of course the men
who brought us all together, Chairman and CEO of I
Heart Media Bob Bittman and Chairman of an DC News
Andy Lack. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit
(32:04):
the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. H
You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and
I heart radio. There's a woman I think about all
the time. I met her two years ago when we
were on vacation at a dude ranch and upstate New York.
She was a waitress and the owner of the restaurant
came and said, UM, we have a waitress here and
she'd love to talk to you. So I said great,
So she came over. She said, I see you on
(00:26):
the news, I see you on TV. I want to
tell you I love the President. I love him because
he loves me. He came to see me. You you
think I'm white trash. And she goes this restaurant where
I work at. They give me enough hours that I
can't get a second job, but they don't give me
enough hours to get healthcare. I'm a mom. I have
(00:47):
two single daughters. Their kids have to go to school
up here. We have the worst public schools with no
special services. Both of my grandchildren need them. So all
I have is the bureaucracy in town, and nobody answers
the phone own. But the president he came up here,
he had a rally and I said, but what did
he offer you? In that rally, what were the policies,
(01:08):
And she goes, I don't know very much about policies,
but I know somebody who's now living in the White
House came and talked to us. And I can't get
anybody at social services to even answer the phone. And
she said, where you live, you have charities that you
raise money for, you know, the Boys Club, the Girls Club.
And I said yes, because I do. And she goes,
(01:28):
up here, we don't have any of that, And then
she laid it out. She said, here's the deal. My
grandchildren aren't washing up on shore in a boat, so
my story is not ugly enough to be on the
cover of your newspaper. But look at me. I'm not
pretty enough to go to your house for dinner. And
here's the thing. On a whole lot of levels, she's right.
(01:49):
Maybe we don't see her, and maybe we don't talk
about her, but what she's asking for is compassion for her.
We are living in complicated time. We've never been able
to communicate so easily, yet dialogue itself is dying. The
line between what one can and cannot say is absolutely clouded.
(02:12):
We are losing friends and cutting off family members over
things that should make us better and smarter over progress.
Progress is uncomfortable. Hence our latest endeavor, the Modern Rules Podcast.
What we'd like to say are compelling conversations during these
culturally complicated times, and they're not. Actually. I'm Stephanie Rule,
(02:45):
MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent, and this is Modern Rules.
In this season of Modern Rules, I'm going to be
spending time unpacking the harriest conversations from privilege to political correctness,
(03:07):
to try and figure out how we can navigate this
changing world and break through to actually talk with and
learn from the people who disagree with us, and maybe
just maybe learn something along the way. Together on Modern Rules,
we're going to get into this idea of political correctness.
(03:29):
Lots of well intentioned people say things that come across offensive.
Some of those people need to tighten up their game.
But on the other hand, where some people are expecting
us to be so sensitive to so many groups, the
outcome is others are shutting down and leaving the conversation. I,
for one, believe the more people in the conversation the better.
(03:51):
So my goal is to try to find some progress.
So I recruited three tour guides as I try to
make my way through this cultural mind field, head of
the Pulitzer Organization, and Dana Kennedy Quest Love and Michaelean Black,
my first guest author and journalist Dana Kennedy, who is
no stranger to speaking her mind. So I started the
conversation by talking about that waitress. So two years ago,
(04:17):
Andy and I and the kids were an upstate New
York and we met a waitress who said, I want
to talk to you, and I want to tell you
what I love President Trump. And I said, sure. Now,
that woman is a forgotten American who had everything she
said had tons of racist overtones in it. She goes
up here in upstate New York, we don't have the
after school programs and all the charities that you raise
(04:38):
money for that the sisters in places like New York
City have nobody cares about us, and she said, the
President cares about me, and she said the sisters. So
it was clearly a racial judgment. And so what do
we do about that person? And as a black successful
woman who grew up in Kentucky and has lived a
successful life in New York City, what do we do
about that? Number One, I don't think she gets a
(05:02):
past because she's racist. That's just not acceptable because the
air quote sisters she speaks of have the same issues
and they're more like her than she realizes. That's number one. Two.
I'd love to go back to her today and see
how that work out for you. Like this sense that
someone is coming into a new administration riding in on
a white horse and was going to save her, I
(05:24):
will bet you cash money she would tell you that
didn't happen. It's not gonna happen, And so it's more
of a pipe dream, I think than anything else. The
other thing about that is familiarity breaths respect and ultimately
friendship and then love, or it gives us the best
chance at it. So I've had people say to me,
my whole life mostly has it released to journalists, journalists
(05:45):
can't be trusted journalists or whatever. Long before the whole
enemy of the people stick which I believe it is
a stick came into play, but oh but not you,
Or if someone says something about black people and says
in front of me, but not you. So once you're
sitting across from someone, um, everything changes and once the
(06:05):
person realizes, wow, this person doesn't hate me. You know.
Actually they actually they're human just like I am, and
they have the same concerns about their kids that I do.
All of that falls away one person at a time.
But we're sitting across from each other less and less,
and that's my fear, Dana. I think that's the answer, though,
is that we have to find ways to put each
(06:26):
other in the same room. I live in two different worlds,
I always say, and I'm often out of context. If
I'm walking around, you know, doing the grocery shopping in
my sweats on the weekend, the assumption is one thing
about me. I'm that sister that she's talking about, right,
But the minute somebody either hears me speak or learns
(06:46):
about my career, suddenly I'm everyone's best friend. Oh my god,
you're so quote unquote articulate. You're so smart, um, you're
so interesting, you're so strong. I'm grateful that people see
me in that context at times, to the extent that
I am the things I was those things when I
was walking around my sweats and you didn't know who
I was. I love that you brought up the word articulate,
(07:07):
because it is this hot button word and I hear
arguments actually on both sides. So explain to me. And
I want this to be the safest place. I want
you to explain to me what's wrong with what's wrong
with it? Because here's my fear. I hear from people
who say, I'm trying to say something nice, I'm trying
to call someone articulate, And now I've been at the
(07:29):
same time, why do you assume it's on the sense?
So if I go in anywhere, I happen to meet
with the bank president or CEO of a company, and
we have a meeting, and at the end, imagine me, uh,
sitting there with a let's just make this up, uh,
sixty two year old white man who went to Harvard,
and I wouldn't shook his hands, said my god, you're articulate.
(07:51):
You look at me like I've lost my mind. Why
wouldn't he be articulate. He's accomplished, well educated. Of course,
it's particulate. That's the ticket to get in the door.
But it's special or different or other or stands out
often when you look like me. But Dana, you are special,
(08:12):
and you do stand out a special unicorn. I'm not
There are thousands of black women in this country, getting
up every day as a single mom, like I am
going to work. I have a high profile position. You
are extraordinary, Dana, Well, thank you, But you know what,
I know a lot of other extraordinary people, and they're
not all black women. I mean, you're extraordinary, but I
(08:34):
bet people don't walk around everybody telling you you're extraordinary.
I don't walk through life thinking of myself as extraordinary.
I think of myself as a mother who has to
put food on the table, who has to teach my
child certain values before he leaves my home. You know,
who has to have who has to have a relationship
with God that's important to me, all those things, And
I'm gonna tell you something I say all the time.
(08:54):
I think I've said this to you and you're in
your home. Um, there are people I had to have
and to me. This weekend, I was dropping my son
off at the airport and there was one woman checking
us in through security and she I was handing her my,
my tag, my UM his boarding pass and this man
comes up and he has his boarding pass on his
phone and he literally stepped in front of me and
(09:17):
held up the pass so she could put him through.
And I said, excuse me, I'm sorry, did you not
see me standing here? Right? And so she he ended
up apologizing and so forth. But we can be invisible,
we can be misunderstood, and that can't happen for everybody,
but when you're a person of color, it often happens more.
(09:38):
And so the sense of entitlement that can happen that
you speak about all the time, I think is very real.
I say this people all the time. For anyone who
thinks they're better than another person, you're only better than
them until you need their bone. Maural life is the
great equalizer. But I'm saying there are people who really
think that they're more entitled. They're entitled to cut the line,
they're entitled to seconds before one else they even has first.
(10:01):
They were titled to the better schools because they can
pay for them. They were titled entitled to better life
because they believe they actually worked, they had no leg up,
and that if everybody else just got over it already
and worked really hard and buckled down, you can get
there too. And in fact, they point to me as
proof of that right. And while on one hand, there
are a lot of people like me, I believe when
(10:23):
you live in a segregated world. You wouldn't know that.
We've got so much more to talk about. We'll be
right back after a quick break. Welcome back to modern rules.
(10:43):
I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior. But there's a
long distance between that person who cut you in line
at the airport then the person who's calling you articulate.
And you can say to me, no, Stephanie, But is
there some break or for giveness to give two people
who are trying? And this is why I'm saying this
(11:05):
because my fear right now is that we are getting
so in these tribes that we have to find some
level of give because I worry that we're going to
silence people. And so those people who call me articulated.
I may be frustrated I wrote my eyes, but I
don't hold it against them. I can hug that person.
I can have them in my house. I can laugh
(11:25):
at him. Let me tell you a really funny story.
You're all gonna love this. When I first started out
at the New York Times, um uh and the woman
I'm I'm telling this story because the woman who did this,
we're actually friends and we joke about it today. At
the time, it was not funny. I was brand new
and I was a business finance reporter, and um, the
reporters had to work a rotating weekend shift in case
(11:47):
news broke. And this was during a time when there
were a lot of mergers and acquisitions going on in
the banking industry. So I was working on a Sunday.
My shift was almost over and the mergers and acquisition
reporter came in. There was some huge deal going down
on a Sunday and she was frantic. So I get
my notebook hen pen and said, hey, listen, how can
I help you. I'll stay as long as you need.
And she's like, oh my god, great, thank you. I'll
(12:09):
come back and just give me two minutes. She goes
to her desk and she scribbled something down right, And
this gets the again. The point of the story is,
yes you can. You can start where I'm about to
tell you and end up where this is a woman
who's a friend. And she comes back to my desk
a few minutes later, she hands me the piece of
paper where she was scribbling down and a key to
(12:29):
her apartment, says, I've left my oven on. Could you
just please go and turn it off? What? Uh? Huh?
And so I had a choice there. And this is
another thing I teach my son all the time, and
I speak about this a lot. When life hands you
whatever it's going to hand you, whether it's something like that,
which by the way, is minor, or something like the
tragedy that I've had in my life that you know,
where my fiance was killed in combat and Iraq when
(12:51):
Oursonan was six months old. You can really get frustrated,
which I did, and angry or heart or whatever you
want to feel. But you can take the high road
or you can let it bring you low. And so
what I did was I picked up my coat because
clearly my shift was over. I wasn't doing that, and
turned off my computer and said, that sounds like a
personal problem. You need to call your super right away. UM,
(13:13):
but if I could use my journalism skills in any
way to help you, just let me know. And I
walked out. And so the whole next week I had
a group of friends at the Times, UM, some of
whom were black reporters, and we it became a joke
for the week, which really allowed me to let go.
People would say, hey, by the way of some dry cleaning,
can you pick it up, or would you order me pizza?
(13:34):
How did you become friends? Because Dana, that was many
years ago, and you learned to forgive her, and right now,
within months, you forgave her with the month. So the
way we got past it, I love her. She cringes
when I tell the story. And I never tell her name,
you know, because I wouldn't do that because she's my friend,
she said, Dana, and I think she really believes that.
(13:55):
She said, I thought we were friends. Why I'd only
been there a few months, and you know we weren't
that close. But in her mind, she said, I was
asking you as a friend, and that's a lie. Well whatever,
maybe it was a rationalization, but she was not coming
from a place she believes of I think you're less
than and I think your value is in you know,
turning off my oven, right, And I said, okay, you know,
(14:18):
I accept that. But also, even if it was a lie,
she realized she had said and done something wrong and
felt horrible about it. Um And so then we just
started making a joke of it, and over time she
got more and more embarrassed about it, you know, as
I joked about it. And when we moved on how
hard is it right now for people to have an
independent thought, to maintain the highroad, to have a long view.
(14:40):
And I turned you to social media. On social media
right now, there's no room for nuance or forgiveness or
a variety of opinions. On social media, it is performance art.
You play a role, you play a character, and the
moment you deviate from that, you are getting full late.
So it's harder to do in your line of work.
But I people minimize social media in your life. Who
(15:01):
says we have to be slaved to it. I am
not on social media that much for my job as
I need to be. I am, uh, but tone it down,
turn it off, disconnect. Social media is the epicenter of
where we're labeling and blaming. It's easy to hide. Somebody,
uh sent a nasty tweet about me last year, something
(15:22):
about either the way I looked or something I've done. Kid,
and I just very funny said, you know, that really
was a bad hair day. And the guy says, oh, ma'am,
I'm so sorry. He never thought I would see it.
He thought I was so you know, I don't know
in the air that I would never see it. And
we laughed about it, you know, And I don't laugh
everything off. I don't want you to think that people
have to feel whatever they feel, right. Um, but I
(15:46):
was some anonymous, really not true human being on the
other side of his you know, phone or computer. He
never thought I was going to respond. Social media and
labeling takes me to another subject that I want to
talk about. Race. It is a massively important topic. I
(16:07):
worry that maybe the label of racism or racist is
getting overused in a way that could hurt us in
terms of race relations. And I'm just gonna give a
quick example. There's lots of newspaper articles out. I think
it was a New York Times. It was saying Steveson
High School, which is sort of the number one gifted
and talented math public school, admitted only seven African American
(16:28):
students in the freshman class. And I was just trying
to make a nuance point on Twitter that while this
is an issue, this is not the same issue as
the college cheating scam about white privilege, you know, winner
take solve. I was trying to say, And in the
case of Stuyveson, it's a it's one single admissions test,
(16:48):
there's no interview, there's there, there there, there's nothing qualitative.
We either get this score or you don't. And so
I was just trying to say it's slightly different. And
as soon as I said that, my Twitter is filled
with you white, privileged racist. And my fear is, as
soon as people are saying that, you shut down, how
do we address, especially issues like privilege. Because the answer is, yes,
(17:13):
it's one exam and all those kids, many of whom
are from a diverse background, we're going to the public
failing public schools in New York City aren't prepared for
that test. But as soon as you're you're being labeled
a racist. I worry that identifying racial issues might worse
in race relationship. A couple of things. First of all,
(17:34):
just because somebody calls your racist doesn't mean you are.
But it does make you want to get out of
the conversation. Sure it does, Sure, but that's where you
have to resist. Just as people have to resist using
that label on people who um aren't racist or may
not be racist, others have to say, I'm going to
stay in the conversation. I'm not going to give that
so much power and so much weight that it shuts
me down. Because I've decided on part of the solution.
(17:58):
Something I've been struggling with these is is how we
can find a way to explore things that we do
not understand, get somebody else's perspective without actually stepping on
a cultural landmark. Is there a way to cover these
dicey topics and be genuinely curious without getting yourself in
hot water? So I turned to someone who I trust,
(18:20):
who knows I have good intentions, and he certainly knows
a lot. My friend, writer, entrepreneur, musician, all around superstar
quest love to get some answers. I want to talk
to you about how hard it is to tell the
truth right now and how hard it is to get real.
(18:40):
So I always joked at the young people that I
work with or I call them woke nation, and I
think about what it's like on social media right now,
or it's very hard to share an opinion that's outside
this designated brand. Can I ask you something that, yeah,
of course, are they woke or are they performative woke? Okay?
Right there? Right there? Okay, Because performative look is a
(19:04):
syndrome that's threatening not to go away. How do you
define performative woke? I guess. In short, you could say
that what social media allows you to do, kind of
like old school Nintendo with the gold coins, is you
get to collect cloud points. You know, so with the
right sentence, in the right paragraph, in the right structure,
(19:26):
you can collect cloud points. Now, do you believe that
there's a way of informing people of what's going on
that otherwise wouldn't know? Like I know for the fact
that most of my friends are at this point exhausted
from watching the news, So I have a bunch of
hashtag I just can't. I just can't. I just can't,
(19:47):
and the news is exhausting. So I mean, for a
certain few to inform them I think is wise. But
then there's people that take kind of that position. And
I'm not saying it's fake concern under fake outrage, but
there's people that I call performative book that I'd feel
(20:07):
don't necessarily walk the walk or talk the talk. You know,
how dangerous do you think it is? Because I fear
it's going to get people to stop talking. I mean,
it's a real thing, though, And that's the thing is
things can happen in real time, and voices can be
heard instantly, and we do live in cancel culture, and
so right now it's what I would call the landmine
(20:30):
era where we live in where you just have to
be extremely careful and what your moves are in what
your approaches. Um, I don't know if it's crazy more
or less than just maybe we just weren't aware of
the outrage and I'm in for certain things. Yeah, I
do believe that this is becoming a genuine surprise to
(20:53):
people that weren't aware that black people felt a certain
way about things. People are going to have to do
real research, and that's the problem. You are so much
more than a musician. We can't even list the amount
of businesses that you're in. How do you feel when
people call you articulate? I rolled my eyes in my head,
(21:14):
you know, you know what a compliment in their minds.
I used to But see, that's the whole superhuman subhuman.
But what if it's not. What if someone saying, man,
you're super impressive. What if they're not saying it about
your race. What if they're saying it about you because
you are all right? So look all right, the same
way that Black Lives Matter has a secret ellipsus at
(21:37):
the end of that sentence, which you know, missing a
word too t o O. In two, I realized that
I'm gonna hear hashtag speak so well, um, I didn't
expect this. I didn't expect a deep conversation with you.
And it's it's because for at least the first three
years of my career from six, that's all I heard, like, Wow,
(22:01):
you're so amazing to talk to you. No, no, no no,
And I mean at the time, it was like, Okay,
I have to get in the doors somehow. So I'm
not going to say, well, what do you mean by that?
Do you mean that we're all not like? You know?
I know that the end of that sentences as opposed
to other rappers that I interview that don't hold a
conversation with me this word research. Is there a place
(22:26):
for it in a thoughtful way? You Well, I talked
to people. I know you like I talk to people.
So I'm the I'm the bridge between a lot of opinions.
I will ask everyone what they think, what they think,
and that's the thing. I don't know everything, but I
(22:46):
ask everything, and that's that's the problem. People don't go
outside their comfort zones. Okay, so I'm gonna go out
on a limb and say I believe that you know
and respect me, and you believe I'm well intentioned. Is
there a place for me, in a truly curious way
to ask a question like I know it's not appropriate,
(23:09):
I can't remember why. But is there a way to
actually approach and answer that question without burning a house down?
I feel as though there are enough op edge and
enough blogs out there where you can discreetly, quietly google
what what opinions are to sort of get the gist
(23:31):
of you know, how deep is the water? Like I
don't again? Which if you okay, if you're vacationing next weekend,
you happen to be on the yacht, I would think
that you wouldn't just dive in head first. You would
ask questions about are there sharks in there? You would
you want to know how deep the water is? And
(23:51):
people like you and we are lucky enough to have
massive platforms, we better do our homework before we run
our mouth. But not even for us, I think general,
only for everybody. I think all those answers can be
found a lot of times people will just ask the
question and my my number one response on social media
(24:12):
is mostly Google's your best friend. Google's your best friend,
and you know yes, Could I have just given them
the answer, how many albums have you had? Seventeen? No,
I would say, like Google's your best friend, Like I
want you to do the work. You can find that out.
There's an easy way to find that out. We have
(24:34):
so much more to get into. We'll be back right
after a quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. As
complicated as it is for me on live TV every day,
there's one profession I think it's worse for comedy. Comedians,
(24:57):
for all these years have made a living making people laugh,
kind of leaning on, pressing on stereotypes, and now we're
living at a time when even stereotyping someone at the
get go can knock you out of the game. So
I talked to Michael ian Black about how complicated all
this is for a guy in his profession. Do you
(25:20):
see the impact of this sort of cancel culture. We're
deleting people that we don't like their behavior, We're labeling them.
There's always examples of individuals who have been through this
and have had their lives really hurt um some cases fairly,
in fewer cases unfairly. I don't know anybody in media
(25:40):
who hasn't men in media who hasn't like looked at
their own past behavior and gone, jeez, did I step
over a line somewhere? Did I do something in a
different place before it was But things come up from
twenty years ago, thirty years ago, like in the case
of well Joe Biden, I guess who. I have no
idea what his intentions are one way or the other,
(26:00):
but probably didn't think twice about whatever he was doing
in that moment because it's the way he was and
the line was in a different place. And now he's
being forced to think about that. Being forced to think
about it is a good thing. That's what I'm saying.
Being forced out is something else right And and to
this point we haven't seen him forced out of anything.
I saw you this year try to give some grace
and space to Louis c K. And you were annihilated,
(26:23):
you retreated after the Louis c K thing. But your
intention is the same. Have you thought more about it?
Is there room for someone to come back who has
gone down? Well? One of the reasons I picked Louis
specifically was because I thought he was unique in his
ability to address his own foibles and that if anybody
could do it, he could. What's been disappointing about Louis
(26:46):
specifically is that he has chosen the exact opposite path
since then, and the fact that he's done that has
made me actually feel worse and more foolish for having
come to his defense in the beginning. I think everybody thought,
I thought that Louis made a career. Louis specifically made
a career of talking about what a scumbag he is
(27:08):
and all the things that are wrong with Louis. And
yet when it came to this thing, this thing that
everybody knew about and everybody exp effected him to address,
he hasn't done it in an intelligent, cogent, or humble way.
I think he had an opportunity to come back if
(27:30):
he had done that, and maybe he still has that opportunity,
but his behavior since then has indicated that he's unwilling
or unable to do it. I don't know. I don't
know if people can come back. I think somebody will
at some point, and we'll see how it goes for them.
But that's also because sometimes you have to say you're
sorry and be sorry sorrier than you want to be right,
(27:55):
so for you, for me, there there can be instances,
especially on social media, where our words, because we're public,
people of prominence, we can express a view, and even
if we have no bad intention, if it is offensive
to someone, we have to ask ourselves, are we truly
sorry that that person got offended? And oftentimes we don't
(28:15):
want to say we're sorry, because it's like we're admitting guilt. Right,
But if you, if you, if you come from a
place where you say there's no such thing as an
ugly truth, and I am sorry that what I said sucked,
I'm sorry that I did that, And and that maybe
is the case of Louis or others where they're still
so stuck in on technicalities or but this, but that
(28:37):
instead of just you gotta truly fall on the sword,
and people don't seem to want to. It's really hard
for men in particular, to be that vulnerable, to expose
themselves in that way. That's hard. That's really hard stuff.
Maybe the hardest thing for men is to, you know,
essentially just stand there naked and say take your shot.
(28:59):
I deserve it. That's hard, and you would hope that
more men would learn to develop those skills. We didn't
let them until now. No, I don't know that we're
able to to this point. I struggle with it constantly.
You know, I just screw up at home, you know,
I pissed off my wife about something. It's really really,
really hard for me to say I screwed up and
(29:20):
I'm sorry and to own that. It's really hard. Then again,
she almost never apologizes to me. But we didn't. We
don't allow. When men are vulnerable, we judge them for it,
and we think they're weak. And when women are we
think they're weak. You can be confident and vulnerable at
(29:42):
the same time. Traditionally we don't allow. We don't, we
don't allow for that. I'm just I'm trying to process
whether I agree with you that we don't allow women
to have that same vulnerability. Listen, we let, we let them,
and then we love it because we're like, you can
be vulnerable and cry because it keeps us nice and week. Yeah,
I think maybe that's right. Sure, we their tears are welcome,
(30:04):
and then we are and then we will keep them
right there in their place. I think when a man
does that, when a man kind of sheds those public
tears in a weird way, it can end with contempt
for him instead of appreciation. So here's what I'm hearing
about political correctness. There is no clear answer, but there's
(30:27):
also no political correctness police. It's going to come and
arrest you. Now, what I learned is just because you
have good intentions, that isn't necessarily good enough. And while
we can't expect everyone to be hyper aware of every
person's perspective and play my commitment, what I'm gonna do
(30:48):
is to actually think a little bit harder about it
and implement it for those around me. If we can
all try a little bit more and get out of
our camps, actually think we're gonna huge progress. So that
is what I'm gonna do. This has been our conversation
on political correctness. Thanks for listening, bringing in open mind,
and helping me create the modern rules. That's it for
(31:21):
today's episode. I'm your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very
special thanks to the extraordinary people who made this happen.
My producers Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen, and Anne Bark, Audio
Michael Biett for booking and wrangling the amazing guests who
joined us, Julian Weller for editing and bill Plaques, Michael
Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise. Special thanks
(31:43):
to Seve Lick Tid, Barbara Rap, Jonathan Wald, Redugo, Holly
traz Nikki Etre, and Christina Everett. Our executive producers are
Conald Byrne and Mangesh Attigador, and of course the men
who brought us all together, Chairman and CEO of I
Heart Media Bob Bittman and Chairman of an DC News
Andy Lack. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit
(32:04):
the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. H
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