The title “feminist” can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. For some women, it’s not a title they think includes them. In this episode, Stephanie speaks with founder of The Female Quotient Shelley Zalis, comedian Michael Ian Black, and Stephanie’s own mother, Louise Ruhle, to discuss modern feminism and its impact not just on women…but men, too.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and
I Heart Radio. We use words that are perceived as
negative for women that actually are positive. If I say
you're too emotional, the positive you're actually just very passionate.
You say a strong woman, now nobody blinks an eye.
(00:26):
But if you say an empathetic man or a sensitive man,
that raises an eyebrow at least a little bit. I
like people to open the doors. I like people to
say I look nice. That's not an insult, that's not
something terrible. Feminists don't want that. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC
anchor and NBC News correspondent, And this is Modern Rules
(00:57):
Today's episode Feminism. What does feminism look like? And who
actually gets to be a part of it? When we
say all of us, do we mean all of us?
Because women, whether we like it or not, we are
defined by our sex. We're limited by it. When we
talk about the rules, the guidelines for women, it's often
about our sexuality, how we dress, how we behave. I
(01:21):
don't know too many people who talk about how boys
behave and what they wear to work. And the bigger
question is if we really want to make a difference.
Can we do it at the edges with more conferences
and conversations, where do you have to burn the whole
house down together? On modern rules? We're gonna get into
feminism and the changing rules for women and men with
(01:42):
two of my favorite guests, Shelley's Alice and Michael Ian Black.
And there are some people who don't feel that these
changes include them or even respect their lifestyles. One of
those people's my mom my one and only Louise rule.
So something that you and I have often I found
(02:03):
disagreed on. I think you're the strongest woman. I know
you think I'm a strong woman. Yet if I said
to you, mom, Louise, are you a feminist? What would
you say? No? Why? What do you think of feminist? Is?
I think a person that's not satisfied in the role
that women play. I know the role that women are
(02:23):
longing to get, and they strive for it differently than
I would as a woman. They seem to think they
have to come in like a gang buster. They seem
to think they have to shove the fact that the
women down everybody's throat, instead of being accomplished in your
own right. Whether you're a woman or not. They seem
to think they have to push it, push you push it,
and you don't have to push it. I like people
to open the doors. I like people to say I
look nice. That's not an insult, that's not something terrible.
(02:46):
Feminists don't want that we're equal. No, I want somebody
to say I look nice yesterday. That doesn't mean I
look like horror the day before. I like compliments. I
like to be appreciated. And women don't think that's necessary.
They think that's kind of like demeaning, and it's not demeaning.
But don't you think this is a confusing time because
you want me, your daughter to go to work, and
(03:07):
you believe in me, and you think I should absolutely
have the right to be the most senior person in
my company. You think I deserve to be the highest
paid person if that's what my work warrants. But then
after work, you also think that a guy should get
on his knee and proposed to me and buy me
a big ring, and then we go to dinner he
should pick up the tab. Isn't that confusing? The word
(03:29):
deserve comes into all that, and deserves on the back
end of what you just said as well, as the
front end. You deserve a big ring, You deserve him
to be on the knee. That's that's that's like, that's
what men do well because that's a traditional proposal. And
I'm a traditionalist. You just said that. But if you're
a traditionalist and at the same time you believe in
(03:49):
me and you think I should make the money and
have the big job, which if you deserve it, but
which one should be given it big because you're a woman. No,
of course not. But I'm saying, but that's what feminists do.
In some cases, they don't think they've been equally treated
because they were women. If they deserve it, they should
always got Do you think women today are treated equally
(04:10):
in some arenas? Yes, and some absolutely not? And what
arenas do you think women are treated equally? I think
in in business, you think we're treated equally. If they
deserve it and have earned it, it shouldn't just be
given to them. You know this, Every promotion I've ever gotten,
every big trade I've ever done, everywhere I go, people
(04:31):
have always assumed she must have slept with somebody to
get that. You know, people think that of me? Yes,
so I don't get treated equal? No, No, that's a
perception on their part. You have earned everything, You've gotten it.
I know that for a fact, because I know how
hard working you are. People assume a lot of things,
especially women against women. So how do you how have
(04:51):
you dealt with that all these years? Right? People have
often thought the worst of someone like me, and you
know that, And what do you think of that? I
think it's a fool assumption. It's a terrible disgrace that
people so judgmental when they don't know the facts, but
they're quick to use their tongues to be cutting to
other people. The biggest weapon people have as a tongue,
you know, that can kill many No guns, no knives,
(05:14):
the tongue. But maybe the idea of a feminist mom
is someone who just wants everyone to get their own,
to get an equal shot. You don't think that's what
feminists too? Maybe you don't in your mind you think
a feminist as a fighter. It's a pusher. It's a
person that thinks they're deserving of it, whether they are
deserving them And I don't think so. I think you
really have to earn it. You don't just get it
(05:34):
because you're a woman like I don't think that because
they're not enough women on the fire department, you should
become a fire I mean, if there's a man's two
hund pounds on the roof and you gave a girl,
that's a woman that's five to she's not gonna be
able to carry that man down. But she should have
a job as a firefighter. Maybe because she might be
five too, but she might be just as strong as
he is. But maybe not because they want to make
heaven more women on the fire department. Why do you
(05:56):
think that? I mean people love to say like, oh,
there's this war on men. Do you think there's a
war on men right now? I think women are are
really taking down men and they're taking their dignity way
by being so aggressive in their way of how they
are with men. But how come men are allowed to
be super aggressive and women aren't. Well, not all men
are super aggressive, and some women back right off from
(06:17):
that from aggressive men. Give me tell me how you
think women were negating so hard to take men's dignity away,
Because it's not just you. I hear this all the time,
I just don't actually see it anywhere. Well. I think
they feel that, you know, because we're dating or going out,
I don't have to have the meals or get by
the food. Oh and you know, you see these men
(06:38):
in the grocery stores now with babies hanging around their
necks and they're getting the list of what to buy.
What you know, do they have to do that too
when the woman is maybe you know, in a yoga class. Yeah,
let me tell you, as a working mom, I sure
as hell need my husband to push a stroller and
go to the grocery store. Why should I have the
same college education men do work my ass off the
(06:59):
same way they do. And because I'm the woman, I
should have to push the stroller and go to the
grocery store. Why can't I ask a man to do that?
You said you were working. If you're working, if the
woman is going to yoga and he's in the grocery
store with a baby hanging around his neck and walking
up and down, the difference. But you but hold on
a second, you think that yoga doing stay at home
(07:19):
mom whose husband is at the store. Do you think
she's the feminist or is the feminist a lot more
likely to be somebody like me who's saying, why can't
my husband be the class parent. Why can't my husband
be on the email from school. I'm not sure that
there's that many feminists who are living in the suburbs
going to Name and Marcus at lunch while their husband's
(07:42):
picking up the kids at school. I think the feminists
are in the workplace saying I deserve the big job,
and I shouldn't have to take a back seat because
the boss is a guy. No, they shouldn't have to
take a back seat if the boss is a guy,
if they deserve the job. But do you really think
there's that many examples of a woman got this just
because she's a woman. Really, they're more nailed than it
(08:05):
be before. Yeah, and I guess, but there's always been
over history countless men who get jobs because they're buddies,
because they're girlfriends, because look at my husband. Right, Well,
I went to the same school, so let's just stay
right here. I went to public school in New Jersey.
My husband went to the fanciest private school there is.
He went to Princeton. I went to Lehigh. He played
(08:27):
lacrosse at Princeton. That's the strongest network there is. He
and I both end up in investment banking, and when
we walk onto a trading floor. He looks to the right,
and he looks to the left, and there's a zillion
guys who looked just like him, saying, come on, Andy,
come sit on our desk, let's teach you, let's help you.
There were no public school girls from Jersey helping me
do that. So when you say, well, we don't want
(08:50):
a woman to get an opportunity just because she's a woman,
what about all the guys who have gotten opportunities forever
because they're sports friends, are school friends, are because they're rich.
It's the good old boy network. Yes, So why is
the good old boy network okay? And feminism isn't? I
didn't say the good old boy network is okay? You
are driven, You did it on your own. You didn't
(09:11):
sleep with anybody. You spent a lot of hours. You
can in a lot of time, and you could enter
a room and make your own mark without having the
good old boys circling around. Wrong with the idea If
a company looks around and says, man, everybody who works here,
the majority of people who work here are guys. We
need to get some women in the mix. What's wrong
with that? There's nothing wrong with it. If you deserve it,
(09:32):
not because you know you should just do it because
they're not enough women in the viewing audience, in the
group there, that's that's not why you should get it.
You should be the best that you can be in
that job to get it. So when you looked at
the Women's March, that's not something you would want to participe.
Absolutely not. Why not because I don't have to make
(09:52):
a difference in my life or how I feel, or
what my how I'm moving along as a woman without
parading up and down or carrying out with a group
or screaming and yelling in the streets. I don't have
to do that. I can make a difference in my
own way as a woman, which I did in the past. Again,
you're the strongest woman I know. Does that make me
weak because I don't want to march? Does that make
(10:14):
me weak because I don't want to be in a
group that that has a mission? Do you feel like
feminists over the years have shown enough respect or been
inclusive to people like you who lived a traditional life. No,
absolutely not. They think behind the ape ball. They think
I should be more forward, They think I should be
more forward thinking. They don't think that somebody has to
(10:36):
hold the door up in me. I like those niceties.
They don't think that counts. Do you think working women
judge women who stay at home? Absolutely? What do we
think of you and that you settled? You don't have
a very big place in this world. You're not gonna
make much of a difference. You're not gonna make an impact.
We are we are the future. Do you think you settled? Uh?
(10:56):
In some ways, I didn't go to my where I
could have gone. But you also didn't have the opportunity
back that right. But I'm saying I think I would
have had a different Uh, carved my life out somewhat differently.
I don't regret what I did, but I think I
would have carved my life aut differently if I had
my own weight off my head, my own independence to do.
You pushed your daughters to be absolutely always because I
(11:17):
didn't do it for me, so I wanted to make
sure they did for them. I remember being a little
girl and driving to the train station to drop Daddy
off and sitting next to you in the car, and
I can remember, even though I was much closer to
you than I I was him, thinking I don't want
her life. I want his life. He gets on a
(11:38):
train and he goes to New York City and he
has a whole other world, and this lady is stuck
with me all day. Could you feel that I felt
that way? Well? I think you felt limited because we
didn't do all the things that that big adventure that
he took every day. We didn't take that adventure every day.
Our drive was very ordinary, very basic, very predictable. His
(12:00):
was not even going on the train and was not predictable.
How important was it for you for your daughters to
be financially independent, financially independent and educated and your own person,
whether you marry or don't marry, or have a partner,
whatever you want to do. I always wanted you to
be independent as far as finance goes and education goes.
Do you see a change in the way that you
(12:21):
raised me and how I'm raising Drew? How well? Because
you're offering her so many opportunities that I couldn't afford
to with you and your sister, and I didn't think
that that was necessarily the end all to be well,
But now that so many things have changed, I think
that is the end all to be well. So something
that was such a big part of my life. I
(12:42):
was a cheerleader and Miss park Ridge and exactly I
was a cheerleader and a homecoming queen. Do you think
I'm ashamed of those things now? I don't think you
think they count? And I think that's part of the foundation. See,
I think people forget about the foundation of all of us.
You build on the foundation, and they want to break
(13:02):
the foundation and start a new You can't. Buildings don't
work like that, Pyramids don't work like that. You have
to build on the foundation. There was some very, very
good parts of this foundation that people just want to
knock down and say, let's start all over again. We've
got so much more to talk about. We'll be right
back after a quick break. Welcome back to modern rules.
(13:35):
We all have that one friend when it comes to
issues they care about, they say whatever is on their mind,
no matter how popular or unpopular it is. On the
subject of women in the workplace and feminism, I have
got to go to the outspoken CEO, founder and creator
of the Seminal Movement for Professional Women, Shelley Zalice, the
founder of the Female Quotient. We talked so much about women, women, women,
(14:02):
I want you to tell me do you consider yourself
a feminist? Wow? That's such a good question. First of all,
I just I love having conversations with you, Stephanie, because
it's so raw and real, and I think that's what
it takes to to activate change. So thank you for
having me today. Thank you. But I love that right
there when I say, Shelley, are you a feminist? You pause?
(14:24):
Is it because you don't want a label? You don't
need a label? I just think that sometimes words carry
meaning and we live in legacy challenges And so for
me feminism, which I applaud and I'm so proud of
glorious steinhum I say feminism. One point oh women supporting women,
women finding their voice? Am I a feminist? Absolutely? I
(14:48):
call that she for she feminism? Two point oh United
Nations Emma Watson, he for she? Bringing men into the conversation?
Am I a feminist? Yes? I am. The challenge I
have with that is, once we say he for she,
we're inequal. That means we need men to come to
our rescue and save us. So I have respelled and
(15:12):
redefined feminism. Three point oh f E M E N
I s M. I put the word men in feminism.
Modern feminism must include men. I call it we for weight.
We're all in this together. Gender equality is not a
female issue. It's a social and economic issue. But are
(15:33):
all women in this together? Because when I look at
my mom, for example, a stay at home mom, who
is the strongest woman I know, who's devoted herself to
her kids, and she's a fighter, she repels the idea
of feminism. She thinks feminists are angry, fighting, marching. And
the thing that amazes me most, she's not unique in
(15:54):
that she thinks that feminists judge her too strong. Modern
working women today actually the honor that traditional stay at
home woman. Well, first of all, I think that staying
at home is a choice. And I actually just told
someone this. I didn't think when I was I'm fifty
seven years old. Thanks very so to you, But I
(16:14):
really thought to myself, when I do have children, I
probably will not be able to work because I wanted
to be right. I mean, it's true, I I really
didn't think that would be me. And then I realized
that I loved what I was doing, I had purpose,
I had passion, and and it was a choice for
(16:35):
me to stay in the workplace. I did have to
figure out how to redefine work life balance as well.
And so I have never judged anyone. I actually feel
like in my kids school, I might have been judged
by stay at home moms that looked at me traveling,
working um and I was I still am. I'm a
(16:56):
great mom. I might not be a quote unquote normal mom.
I'm not a classic textbook mom from you know those days,
but I'm a great mom. I'm just a mom my
way and very connected to my children. And I never
missed the meetings that I needed to be at in
the school events and you know all of that. But
how about that judgment, right, we talk about women being sisters,
(17:17):
but moms are a great example. There is a bit
of a working mom mafia versus a stay at home
mom mafia. And it's not all, but that exact piece
of judgment that you're talking about, it exists. Listen. We
don't live in a perfect world, and even historically in
the workplace, women have not supported other women. Can we
(17:41):
just say that out loud? We don't want to say
that we're in this all women are sisters, were all
in this together, Kelly, we have to say out loud
since the dawn of time, there have been women stabbing
one another in the back, especially back in the day
in the workplace when there were so few women. A
lot who were there wanted to stay in the minority
because they like that specialness well, and there was such
a scarcity of jobs at the top and so few women,
(18:03):
we tended to compete with one another, or maybe not
explicitly competing, but it's who's going to get ahead, who's
going to get that seat at the table, and and
maybe our behaviors or maybe we just didn't really have
the environment to spend time and support one another, and
we never had these open conversations. You know, my favorite quote,
trying to be a man is a waste of a
(18:24):
woman Sarah Jessica Parker, and I don't know how she
does it. I love that quote. I've always been playing
in a man's world until I realized that those rules
just don't work for me. And I need to bring
my best self to the table and be me. And
I don't need to wear a suit and a tie
and go to play golf to fit in. But stay
(18:44):
on that you don't have to be a man. But
we are defined by our sex. Okay, so take yourself
to the workplace. One could say, use your femininity to
your benefit. We use words that are perceived as negative
for women that actually are positive. If I say, um,
(19:05):
you're too emotional, the positive, you're actually just very passionate.
You're too bossy, No, you're actually the boss. Or you're assertive,
you're an introvert. Now you're you're actually not, you're thoughtful.
You know, lots of negative connotations. Why do we get
judged when we use attributes that that can be construed
(19:26):
in the wrong way. And if you're a woman who
dresses how she wants and I don't mean unprofessionally, or
who builds close relationships with senior people in business who
most often end up being men, people make the assumption
she must be sleeping with him, he must have a
crush on her. That's plagued women our whole lives, but
also perception. If we believe, it becomes our reality. Right,
(19:53):
And we've been apologizing for who we are and how
we behave. And I remember I must have been twenty
eight years old, long long, long time ago, and I
was meeting this woman named Penelope Queen, and she was
the head of research for a big agency she had
for Sacy Sacy. She had a hundred people working for her,
(20:16):
and I couldn't believe that I was going to be
able to have lunch with her. I was so excited.
I put on this suit, you know, very professional corporate suit,
and I put my hair in a ponytail, like a refrigerator,
one of those suits with a bow. And never forget this,
I put my hair in a pony and I walk
in and I say, I'm here to see Penelope Queen.
(20:36):
And they escorted me to this table and there's this
woman who was dropped it gorgeous with flowing brunette hair
and a purple leather suit, you know, a little jacket
and little skirt, and I'm like your Penelope Queen. And
(20:56):
I remember pulling my hair out of my pone need
tail and like having this moment where I can be
feminine and still win and do it my way without
permission and without thinking that there's this rule book that
I don't know where it came from. I've never read
(21:17):
that I'm supposed to behave like a man and act
like a man. Where did those rules come from? That
was a perception of mine, and from that moment, on.
I owned my strength, I stood in my power, and
I moved forward with positivity, proactivity and breaking every rule
that made no sense to me. We've got so much
(21:39):
more to talk about. We'll be right back after a
quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. Inevitably, these conversations
take you to what this means for men. Hear about
(22:00):
toxic masculinity. Conservative media continues to go on and on
about this war on men. It doesn't sound pretty. I'm
not sure it's even real. To get into that. I
tapped my friend, actor, comedian activist Michael ian Black, take
me inside being a white guy. It's great. There's also
(22:23):
a huge amount of pressure within being a guy to
be that alpha. Right. If you look at what it's
like for young boys, they don't have license to be emotional.
When does it start? How does it exist that? Here's
how boys operate, and your idol should be the rock.
It starts pre utero, it starts before you're born, it
(22:47):
starts with the parents. Let's say it starts with that
moment when the doctor says it's a boy or it's
a girl, And suddenly, whether you're conscious of it or not,
your world clicks just slightly and certain expectations then start
to fall into place about who that person is going
(23:09):
to be based solely on their biology. We do it
from the moment when you're in the hospital and they
swaddle your new baby boy your new baby girl in
a little pink blanket or a little blue blanket, and
that's creating a kind of binary set of expectations for
that kid. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with
with literally identifying this is a boy this is a girl,
(23:32):
of course not. But there's so much that comes attached
to that um that is so deeply rooted. In hundreds
you could say thousands, but I think you can make
an argument that actually literally only hundreds of years of
history um starting in the really in the Industrial Revolution
for reasons that we won't get into, but it starts immediately.
(23:56):
And what that is, specifically is a lane which and
it's a language of masculinity, and the language dictates a
kind of social hierarchy that every boy has to fit
himself into. And the language of masculinity is a language
of dominance. So when a boy is growing up and
(24:18):
trying to figure himself out, he's constantly feeling pressure to
exert that dominance in one form or another, or to
retreat entirely from it, and girls don't have it in
the same way. Girls have other pressures. But I don't
think femininity the way it's currently constructed especially is nearly
(24:38):
as hierarchical as masculinity. No, but there's a whole lot
of pressure. Absolutely, there's a whole lot of pressure. And
some of that pressure has to do with the language masculinity.
Some of that pressure a wider that pressure has to
do with the way men relate to women. But also
I see what you're saying in terms of boy activities
versus girl activities. If a girl decides she wants to
(25:00):
play sport or do things that are traditionally boys, nobody
judges it. And when a young boy joins my daughter's
ballet class, it raises an eyebrow. But what you're describing
is is a phenomena of the last let's say sixty
years since you know, the popular wave of feminism that
swept through in the early to mid sixties, and that
(25:23):
movement started a conversation about what is the role of
women In the same way, I hope that the current
environment is starting a conversation about what is the role
of men? And incidentally that that conversation that's happening now
about men is a direct outcome of the conversation that
started sixty years ago about what is the role of women?
(25:45):
Because women have progressed so much, they're now outpacing men
in so many different areas that men have to reconcile
with our roles because we're seeing women's achievements in a
lot of ways eclipse our own. Not that it's competitive
in that way that you're saying it's one against the other,
but men are now adrift in a way and unmoored
(26:07):
in a way because there are spheres of influence that
we owned the workplace, for example, or the military or
whatever politics. We're now seeing women take a lot of
those positions, and we have to figure out what to
do for ourselves. We're looking at a revolution, hopefully in
the way humans think of themselves as humans, where we're
(26:30):
hopefully removing some of these binary choices between being masculine
and being feminine. A good male leader, as you just said,
has to be a good listener. A good female leader
has to be strong. Strength isn't masculine. Empathy isn't feminine.
(26:51):
And we've seen the way we think about women change
a lot in the last sixty years, where if you
say a strong woman, now nobody blinks an eye. But
if you say an empathetic man or a sensitive man,
as you said about the boy who joins the ballet company,
that raises an eyebrow at least a little bit. And
so these are things we have to overcome in order
to just become better people. So here's what I'm hearing
(27:15):
on feminism. It has got baggage. Even for the most powerful,
articulate women out there. This thing is complicated and it
is not one size fits all. Listen, there's not one
woman who is alike to the woman next to her.
So to try to put this all under one umbrella,
it is way more complicated than that. Feminism doesn't have
(27:37):
a uniform or an identity. You can wear stiletto heels
and still kick somebody's asking them. You can have dinner
with a guy, but it doesn't mean he can touch
her knee on the ride home. But what I've learned
is this thing is evolving and it's not black and white.
And what am I gonna do, at least in my
life and my workplace. I'm not going to let it
(27:58):
be black and white, because when situations are black and white,
more people shut down and get out of the conversation.
Men are still controlling the majority of big jobs and
big money and power in the world. I do not
want them to be out of this conversation. And if
we push them into the corner and make them the
villain here, we're not going to progress. What I'm gonna
(28:22):
do is try to figure out a way to understand
more women so we can broaden out the umbrella. Because
I'd like to think that everyone has a woman in
their life or is a woman who wants to live
our best life. This has been our conversation on feminism.
Thanks for listening, bringing an open mind, and helping me
(28:43):
create the modern rules. That's it for today's episode. I'm
your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very special thanks to
the extraordinary people who made this happen. My producers Julie Brown,
(29:04):
Samantha Ullen, and Anne Bark, Audio, Michael Biett for booking
and wrangling, the amazing guests who joined us, Julian Weller
for editing and bill plaques, Michael Azar and Jacobo Penzo
for their recording expertise special thanks to Steve Lick Todd,
Barbara Rap, Jonathan Waldrie Dugo, Holly traz Nikki Etre, and
Christina Everett. Our executive producers are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatigador,
(29:28):
and of course, the men who brought us all together,
Chairman and CEO of I Heart Media, Bob Pittman and
Chairman of NBC News Andy Lack. For more podcasts from
my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and
I Heart Radio. We use words that are perceived as
negative for women that actually are positive. If I say
you're too emotional, the positive you're actually just very passionate.
You say a strong woman, now nobody blinks an eye.
(00:26):
But if you say an empathetic man or a sensitive man,
that raises an eyebrow at least a little bit. I
like people to open the doors. I like people to
say I look nice. That's not an insult, that's not
something terrible. Feminists don't want that. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC
anchor and NBC News correspondent, And this is Modern Rules
(00:57):
Today's episode Feminism. What does feminism look like? And who
actually gets to be a part of it? When we
say all of us, do we mean all of us?
Because women, whether we like it or not, we are
defined by our sex. We're limited by it. When we
talk about the rules, the guidelines for women, it's often
about our sexuality, how we dress, how we behave. I
(01:21):
don't know too many people who talk about how boys
behave and what they wear to work. And the bigger
question is if we really want to make a difference.
Can we do it at the edges with more conferences
and conversations, where do you have to burn the whole
house down together? On modern rules? We're gonna get into
feminism and the changing rules for women and men with
(01:42):
two of my favorite guests, Shelley's Alice and Michael Ian Black.
And there are some people who don't feel that these
changes include them or even respect their lifestyles. One of
those people's my mom my one and only Louise rule.
So something that you and I have often I found
(02:03):
disagreed on. I think you're the strongest woman. I know
you think I'm a strong woman. Yet if I said
to you, mom, Louise, are you a feminist? What would
you say? No? Why? What do you think of feminist? Is?
I think a person that's not satisfied in the role
that women play. I know the role that women are
(02:23):
longing to get, and they strive for it differently than
I would as a woman. They seem to think they
have to come in like a gang buster. They seem
to think they have to shove the fact that the
women down everybody's throat, instead of being accomplished in your
own right. Whether you're a woman or not. They seem
to think they have to push it, push you push it,
and you don't have to push it. I like people
to open the doors. I like people to say I
look nice. That's not an insult, that's not something terrible.
(02:46):
Feminists don't want that we're equal. No, I want somebody
to say I look nice yesterday. That doesn't mean I
look like horror the day before. I like compliments. I
like to be appreciated. And women don't think that's necessary.
They think that's kind of like demeaning, and it's not demeaning.
But don't you think this is a confusing time because
you want me, your daughter to go to work, and
(03:07):
you believe in me, and you think I should absolutely
have the right to be the most senior person in
my company. You think I deserve to be the highest
paid person if that's what my work warrants. But then
after work, you also think that a guy should get
on his knee and proposed to me and buy me
a big ring, and then we go to dinner he
should pick up the tab. Isn't that confusing? The word
(03:29):
deserve comes into all that, and deserves on the back
end of what you just said as well, as the
front end. You deserve a big ring, You deserve him
to be on the knee. That's that's that's like, that's
what men do well because that's a traditional proposal. And
I'm a traditionalist. You just said that. But if you're
a traditionalist and at the same time you believe in
(03:49):
me and you think I should make the money and
have the big job, which if you deserve it, but
which one should be given it big because you're a woman. No,
of course not. But I'm saying, but that's what feminists do.
In some cases, they don't think they've been equally treated
because they were women. If they deserve it, they should
always got Do you think women today are treated equally
(04:10):
in some arenas? Yes, and some absolutely not? And what
arenas do you think women are treated equally? I think
in in business, you think we're treated equally. If they
deserve it and have earned it, it shouldn't just be
given to them. You know this, Every promotion I've ever gotten,
every big trade I've ever done, everywhere I go, people
(04:31):
have always assumed she must have slept with somebody to
get that. You know, people think that of me? Yes,
so I don't get treated equal? No, No, that's a
perception on their part. You have earned everything, You've gotten it.
I know that for a fact, because I know how
hard working you are. People assume a lot of things,
especially women against women. So how do you how have
(04:51):
you dealt with that all these years? Right? People have
often thought the worst of someone like me, and you
know that, And what do you think of that? I
think it's a fool assumption. It's a terrible disgrace that
people so judgmental when they don't know the facts, but
they're quick to use their tongues to be cutting to
other people. The biggest weapon people have as a tongue,
you know, that can kill many No guns, no knives,
(05:14):
the tongue. But maybe the idea of a feminist mom
is someone who just wants everyone to get their own,
to get an equal shot. You don't think that's what
feminists too? Maybe you don't in your mind you think
a feminist as a fighter. It's a pusher. It's a
person that thinks they're deserving of it, whether they are
deserving them And I don't think so. I think you
really have to earn it. You don't just get it
(05:34):
because you're a woman like I don't think that because
they're not enough women on the fire department, you should
become a fire I mean, if there's a man's two
hund pounds on the roof and you gave a girl,
that's a woman that's five to she's not gonna be
able to carry that man down. But she should have
a job as a firefighter. Maybe because she might be
five too, but she might be just as strong as
he is. But maybe not because they want to make
heaven more women on the fire department. Why do you
(05:56):
think that? I mean people love to say like, oh,
there's this war on men. Do you think there's a
war on men right now? I think women are are
really taking down men and they're taking their dignity way
by being so aggressive in their way of how they
are with men. But how come men are allowed to
be super aggressive and women aren't. Well, not all men
are super aggressive, and some women back right off from
(06:17):
that from aggressive men. Give me tell me how you
think women were negating so hard to take men's dignity away,
Because it's not just you. I hear this all the time,
I just don't actually see it anywhere. Well. I think
they feel that, you know, because we're dating or going out,
I don't have to have the meals or get by
the food. Oh and you know, you see these men
(06:38):
in the grocery stores now with babies hanging around their
necks and they're getting the list of what to buy.
What you know, do they have to do that too
when the woman is maybe you know, in a yoga class. Yeah,
let me tell you, as a working mom, I sure
as hell need my husband to push a stroller and
go to the grocery store. Why should I have the
same college education men do work my ass off the
(06:59):
same way they do. And because I'm the woman, I
should have to push the stroller and go to the
grocery store. Why can't I ask a man to do that?
You said you were working. If you're working, if the
woman is going to yoga and he's in the grocery
store with a baby hanging around his neck and walking
up and down, the difference. But you but hold on
a second, you think that yoga doing stay at home
(07:19):
mom whose husband is at the store. Do you think
she's the feminist or is the feminist a lot more
likely to be somebody like me who's saying, why can't
my husband be the class parent. Why can't my husband
be on the email from school. I'm not sure that
there's that many feminists who are living in the suburbs
going to Name and Marcus at lunch while their husband's
(07:42):
picking up the kids at school. I think the feminists
are in the workplace saying I deserve the big job,
and I shouldn't have to take a back seat because
the boss is a guy. No, they shouldn't have to
take a back seat if the boss is a guy,
if they deserve the job. But do you really think
there's that many examples of a woman got this just
because she's a woman. Really, they're more nailed than it
(08:05):
be before. Yeah, and I guess, but there's always been
over history countless men who get jobs because they're buddies,
because they're girlfriends, because look at my husband. Right, Well,
I went to the same school, so let's just stay
right here. I went to public school in New Jersey.
My husband went to the fanciest private school there is.
He went to Princeton. I went to Lehigh. He played
(08:27):
lacrosse at Princeton. That's the strongest network there is. He
and I both end up in investment banking, and when
we walk onto a trading floor. He looks to the right,
and he looks to the left, and there's a zillion
guys who looked just like him, saying, come on, Andy,
come sit on our desk, let's teach you, let's help you.
There were no public school girls from Jersey helping me
do that. So when you say, well, we don't want
(08:50):
a woman to get an opportunity just because she's a woman,
what about all the guys who have gotten opportunities forever
because they're sports friends, are school friends, are because they're rich.
It's the good old boy network. Yes, So why is
the good old boy network okay? And feminism isn't? I
didn't say the good old boy network is okay? You
are driven, You did it on your own. You didn't
(09:11):
sleep with anybody. You spent a lot of hours. You
can in a lot of time, and you could enter
a room and make your own mark without having the
good old boys circling around. Wrong with the idea If
a company looks around and says, man, everybody who works here,
the majority of people who work here are guys. We
need to get some women in the mix. What's wrong
with that? There's nothing wrong with it. If you deserve it,
(09:32):
not because you know you should just do it because
they're not enough women in the viewing audience, in the
group there, that's that's not why you should get it.
You should be the best that you can be in
that job to get it. So when you looked at
the Women's March, that's not something you would want to participe.
Absolutely not. Why not because I don't have to make
(09:52):
a difference in my life or how I feel, or
what my how I'm moving along as a woman without
parading up and down or carrying out with a group
or screaming and yelling in the streets. I don't have
to do that. I can make a difference in my
own way as a woman, which I did in the past. Again,
you're the strongest woman I know. Does that make me
weak because I don't want to march? Does that make
(10:14):
me weak because I don't want to be in a
group that that has a mission? Do you feel like
feminists over the years have shown enough respect or been
inclusive to people like you who lived a traditional life. No,
absolutely not. They think behind the ape ball. They think
I should be more forward, They think I should be
more forward thinking. They don't think that somebody has to
(10:36):
hold the door up in me. I like those niceties.
They don't think that counts. Do you think working women
judge women who stay at home? Absolutely? What do we
think of you and that you settled? You don't have
a very big place in this world. You're not gonna
make much of a difference. You're not gonna make an impact.
We are we are the future. Do you think you settled? Uh?
(10:56):
In some ways, I didn't go to my where I
could have gone. But you also didn't have the opportunity
back that right. But I'm saying I think I would
have had a different Uh, carved my life out somewhat differently.
I don't regret what I did, but I think I
would have carved my life aut differently if I had
my own weight off my head, my own independence to do.
You pushed your daughters to be absolutely always because I
(11:17):
didn't do it for me, so I wanted to make
sure they did for them. I remember being a little
girl and driving to the train station to drop Daddy
off and sitting next to you in the car, and
I can remember, even though I was much closer to
you than I I was him, thinking I don't want
her life. I want his life. He gets on a
(11:38):
train and he goes to New York City and he
has a whole other world, and this lady is stuck
with me all day. Could you feel that I felt
that way? Well? I think you felt limited because we
didn't do all the things that that big adventure that
he took every day. We didn't take that adventure every day.
Our drive was very ordinary, very basic, very predictable. His
(12:00):
was not even going on the train and was not predictable.
How important was it for you for your daughters to
be financially independent, financially independent and educated and your own person,
whether you marry or don't marry, or have a partner,
whatever you want to do. I always wanted you to
be independent as far as finance goes and education goes.
Do you see a change in the way that you
(12:21):
raised me and how I'm raising Drew? How well? Because
you're offering her so many opportunities that I couldn't afford
to with you and your sister, and I didn't think
that that was necessarily the end all to be well,
But now that so many things have changed, I think
that is the end all to be well. So something
that was such a big part of my life. I
(12:42):
was a cheerleader and Miss park Ridge and exactly I
was a cheerleader and a homecoming queen. Do you think
I'm ashamed of those things now? I don't think you
think they count? And I think that's part of the foundation. See,
I think people forget about the foundation of all of us.
You build on the foundation, and they want to break
(13:02):
the foundation and start a new You can't. Buildings don't
work like that, Pyramids don't work like that. You have
to build on the foundation. There was some very, very
good parts of this foundation that people just want to
knock down and say, let's start all over again. We've
got so much more to talk about. We'll be right
back after a quick break. Welcome back to modern rules.
(13:35):
We all have that one friend when it comes to
issues they care about, they say whatever is on their mind,
no matter how popular or unpopular it is. On the
subject of women in the workplace and feminism, I have
got to go to the outspoken CEO, founder and creator
of the Seminal Movement for Professional Women, Shelley Zalice, the
founder of the Female Quotient. We talked so much about women, women, women,
(14:02):
I want you to tell me do you consider yourself
a feminist? Wow? That's such a good question. First of all,
I just I love having conversations with you, Stephanie, because
it's so raw and real, and I think that's what
it takes to to activate change. So thank you for
having me today. Thank you. But I love that right
there when I say, Shelley, are you a feminist? You pause?
(14:24):
Is it because you don't want a label? You don't
need a label? I just think that sometimes words carry
meaning and we live in legacy challenges And so for
me feminism, which I applaud and I'm so proud of
glorious steinhum I say feminism. One point oh women supporting women,
women finding their voice? Am I a feminist? Absolutely? I
(14:48):
call that she for she feminism? Two point oh United
Nations Emma Watson, he for she? Bringing men into the conversation?
Am I a feminist? Yes? I am. The challenge I
have with that is, once we say he for she,
we're inequal. That means we need men to come to
our rescue and save us. So I have respelled and
(15:12):
redefined feminism. Three point oh f E M E N
I s M. I put the word men in feminism.
Modern feminism must include men. I call it we for weight.
We're all in this together. Gender equality is not a
female issue. It's a social and economic issue. But are
(15:33):
all women in this together? Because when I look at
my mom, for example, a stay at home mom, who
is the strongest woman I know, who's devoted herself to
her kids, and she's a fighter, she repels the idea
of feminism. She thinks feminists are angry, fighting, marching. And
the thing that amazes me most, she's not unique in
(15:54):
that she thinks that feminists judge her too strong. Modern
working women today actually the honor that traditional stay at
home woman. Well, first of all, I think that staying
at home is a choice. And I actually just told
someone this. I didn't think when I was I'm fifty
seven years old. Thanks very so to you, But I
(16:14):
really thought to myself, when I do have children, I
probably will not be able to work because I wanted
to be right. I mean, it's true, I I really
didn't think that would be me. And then I realized
that I loved what I was doing, I had purpose,
I had passion, and and it was a choice for
(16:35):
me to stay in the workplace. I did have to
figure out how to redefine work life balance as well.
And so I have never judged anyone. I actually feel
like in my kids school, I might have been judged
by stay at home moms that looked at me traveling,
working um and I was I still am. I'm a
(16:56):
great mom. I might not be a quote unquote normal mom.
I'm not a classic textbook mom from you know those days,
but I'm a great mom. I'm just a mom my
way and very connected to my children. And I never
missed the meetings that I needed to be at in
the school events and you know all of that. But
how about that judgment, right, we talk about women being sisters,
(17:17):
but moms are a great example. There is a bit
of a working mom mafia versus a stay at home
mom mafia. And it's not all, but that exact piece
of judgment that you're talking about, it exists. Listen. We
don't live in a perfect world, and even historically in
the workplace, women have not supported other women. Can we
(17:41):
just say that out loud? We don't want to say
that we're in this all women are sisters, were all
in this together, Kelly, we have to say out loud
since the dawn of time, there have been women stabbing
one another in the back, especially back in the day
in the workplace when there were so few women. A
lot who were there wanted to stay in the minority
because they like that specialness well, and there was such
a scarcity of jobs at the top and so few women,
(18:03):
we tended to compete with one another, or maybe not
explicitly competing, but it's who's going to get ahead, who's
going to get that seat at the table, and and
maybe our behaviors or maybe we just didn't really have
the environment to spend time and support one another, and
we never had these open conversations. You know, my favorite quote,
trying to be a man is a waste of a
(18:24):
woman Sarah Jessica Parker, and I don't know how she
does it. I love that quote. I've always been playing
in a man's world until I realized that those rules
just don't work for me. And I need to bring
my best self to the table and be me. And
I don't need to wear a suit and a tie
and go to play golf to fit in. But stay
(18:44):
on that you don't have to be a man. But
we are defined by our sex. Okay, so take yourself
to the workplace. One could say, use your femininity to
your benefit. We use words that are perceived as negative
for women that actually are positive. If I say, um,
(19:05):
you're too emotional, the positive, you're actually just very passionate.
You're too bossy, No, you're actually the boss. Or you're assertive,
you're an introvert. Now you're you're actually not, you're thoughtful.
You know, lots of negative connotations. Why do we get
judged when we use attributes that that can be construed
(19:26):
in the wrong way. And if you're a woman who
dresses how she wants and I don't mean unprofessionally, or
who builds close relationships with senior people in business who
most often end up being men, people make the assumption
she must be sleeping with him, he must have a
crush on her. That's plagued women our whole lives, but
also perception. If we believe, it becomes our reality. Right,
(19:53):
And we've been apologizing for who we are and how
we behave. And I remember I must have been twenty
eight years old, long long, long time ago, and I
was meeting this woman named Penelope Queen, and she was
the head of research for a big agency she had
for Sacy Sacy. She had a hundred people working for her,
(20:16):
and I couldn't believe that I was going to be
able to have lunch with her. I was so excited.
I put on this suit, you know, very professional corporate suit,
and I put my hair in a ponytail, like a refrigerator,
one of those suits with a bow. And never forget this,
I put my hair in a pony and I walk
in and I say, I'm here to see Penelope Queen.
(20:36):
And they escorted me to this table and there's this
woman who was dropped it gorgeous with flowing brunette hair
and a purple leather suit, you know, a little jacket
and little skirt, and I'm like your Penelope Queen. And
(20:56):
I remember pulling my hair out of my pone need
tail and like having this moment where I can be
feminine and still win and do it my way without
permission and without thinking that there's this rule book that
I don't know where it came from. I've never read
(21:17):
that I'm supposed to behave like a man and act
like a man. Where did those rules come from? That
was a perception of mine, and from that moment, on.
I owned my strength, I stood in my power, and
I moved forward with positivity, proactivity and breaking every rule
that made no sense to me. We've got so much
(21:39):
more to talk about. We'll be right back after a
quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. Inevitably, these conversations
take you to what this means for men. Hear about
(22:00):
toxic masculinity. Conservative media continues to go on and on
about this war on men. It doesn't sound pretty. I'm
not sure it's even real. To get into that. I
tapped my friend, actor, comedian activist Michael ian Black, take
me inside being a white guy. It's great. There's also
(22:23):
a huge amount of pressure within being a guy to
be that alpha. Right. If you look at what it's
like for young boys, they don't have license to be emotional.
When does it start? How does it exist that? Here's
how boys operate, and your idol should be the rock.
It starts pre utero, it starts before you're born, it
(22:47):
starts with the parents. Let's say it starts with that
moment when the doctor says it's a boy or it's
a girl, And suddenly, whether you're conscious of it or not,
your world clicks just slightly and certain expectations then start
to fall into place about who that person is going
(23:09):
to be based solely on their biology. We do it
from the moment when you're in the hospital and they
swaddle your new baby boy your new baby girl in
a little pink blanket or a little blue blanket, and
that's creating a kind of binary set of expectations for
that kid. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with
with literally identifying this is a boy this is a girl,
(23:32):
of course not. But there's so much that comes attached
to that um that is so deeply rooted. In hundreds
you could say thousands, but I think you can make
an argument that actually literally only hundreds of years of
history um starting in the really in the Industrial Revolution
for reasons that we won't get into, but it starts immediately.
(23:56):
And what that is, specifically is a lane which and
it's a language of masculinity, and the language dictates a
kind of social hierarchy that every boy has to fit
himself into. And the language of masculinity is a language
of dominance. So when a boy is growing up and
(24:18):
trying to figure himself out, he's constantly feeling pressure to
exert that dominance in one form or another, or to
retreat entirely from it, and girls don't have it in
the same way. Girls have other pressures. But I don't
think femininity the way it's currently constructed especially is nearly
(24:38):
as hierarchical as masculinity. No, but there's a whole lot
of pressure. Absolutely, there's a whole lot of pressure. And
some of that pressure has to do with the language masculinity.
Some of that pressure a wider that pressure has to
do with the way men relate to women. But also
I see what you're saying in terms of boy activities
versus girl activities. If a girl decides she wants to
(25:00):
play sport or do things that are traditionally boys, nobody
judges it. And when a young boy joins my daughter's
ballet class, it raises an eyebrow. But what you're describing
is is a phenomena of the last let's say sixty
years since you know, the popular wave of feminism that
swept through in the early to mid sixties, and that
(25:23):
movement started a conversation about what is the role of
women In the same way, I hope that the current
environment is starting a conversation about what is the role
of men? And incidentally that that conversation that's happening now
about men is a direct outcome of the conversation that
started sixty years ago about what is the role of women?
(25:45):
Because women have progressed so much, they're now outpacing men
in so many different areas that men have to reconcile
with our roles because we're seeing women's achievements in a
lot of ways eclipse our own. Not that it's competitive
in that way that you're saying it's one against the other,
but men are now adrift in a way and unmoored
(26:07):
in a way because there are spheres of influence that
we owned the workplace, for example, or the military or
whatever politics. We're now seeing women take a lot of
those positions, and we have to figure out what to
do for ourselves. We're looking at a revolution, hopefully in
the way humans think of themselves as humans, where we're
(26:30):
hopefully removing some of these binary choices between being masculine
and being feminine. A good male leader, as you just said,
has to be a good listener. A good female leader
has to be strong. Strength isn't masculine. Empathy isn't feminine.
(26:51):
And we've seen the way we think about women change
a lot in the last sixty years, where if you
say a strong woman, now nobody blinks an eye. But
if you say an empathetic man or a sensitive man,
as you said about the boy who joins the ballet company,
that raises an eyebrow at least a little bit. And
so these are things we have to overcome in order
to just become better people. So here's what I'm hearing
(27:15):
on feminism. It has got baggage. Even for the most powerful,
articulate women out there. This thing is complicated and it
is not one size fits all. Listen, there's not one
woman who is alike to the woman next to her.
So to try to put this all under one umbrella,
it is way more complicated than that. Feminism doesn't have
(27:37):
a uniform or an identity. You can wear stiletto heels
and still kick somebody's asking them. You can have dinner
with a guy, but it doesn't mean he can touch
her knee on the ride home. But what I've learned
is this thing is evolving and it's not black and white.
And what am I gonna do, at least in my
life and my workplace. I'm not going to let it
(27:58):
be black and white, because when situations are black and white,
more people shut down and get out of the conversation.
Men are still controlling the majority of big jobs and
big money and power in the world. I do not
want them to be out of this conversation. And if
we push them into the corner and make them the
villain here, we're not going to progress. What I'm gonna
(28:22):
do is try to figure out a way to understand
more women so we can broaden out the umbrella. Because
I'd like to think that everyone has a woman in
their life or is a woman who wants to live
our best life. This has been our conversation on feminism.
Thanks for listening, bringing an open mind, and helping me
(28:43):
create the modern rules. That's it for today's episode. I'm
your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very special thanks to
the extraordinary people who made this happen. My producers Julie Brown,
(29:04):
Samantha Ullen, and Anne Bark, Audio, Michael Biett for booking
and wrangling, the amazing guests who joined us, Julian Weller
for editing and bill plaques, Michael Azar and Jacobo Penzo
for their recording expertise special thanks to Steve Lick Todd,
Barbara Rap, Jonathan Waldrie Dugo, Holly traz Nikki Etre, and
Christina Everett. Our executive producers are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatigador,
(29:28):
and of course, the men who brought us all together,
Chairman and CEO of I Heart Media, Bob Pittman and
Chairman of NBC News Andy Lack. For more podcasts from
my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
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