October 8, 2019 • 27 mins
Traditional masculinity has always dictated that boys have to be macho or tough. But times are changing…In this episode, Stephanie sits down with Roots drummer Questlove, actor and author of the book Manhood, Terry Crews, and advocate Shaun Dougherty to discuss how to combat toxic masculinity and the changing definition of what it means to be a man today.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode includes discussion about sexual abuse that some listeners
might find disturbing. You're listening to Modern Rules, a production
of MSNBC and I Heart Radio. True masculinity is being
in touch with your feelings and not suppressing or again
being performative. His father would have beat him up with
(00:20):
a baseball bat. My dad didn't. Every man in his life,
at one time or another, is a fool, a victim,
or king. I'm Sephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent,
and this is Modern Rules. In this season of Modern Rules,
(00:50):
I'm going to be spending time unpacking the harriest conversations
from privilege to political correctness, to try and figure out
how we can navigate this changing world and break through,
to actually talk with and learn from the people who
disagree with us and maybe just maybe learned something along
the way. Together on Modern Rules, We're gonna get into
(01:13):
masculinity and the changing rules for both men and women
with my guests Terry Crews, Shown Dherty, and Request Love.
That's coming up on Modern Rules. When you think super masculinity,
mega guy, you think big strong athlete, the rock or
maybe my first guest, Terry Cruz he is a portrait
(01:36):
of that, but he's also a lot more. Terry's a
comedian and he's an author. He's also a survivor of
sexual assault, and he's been very open about his addiction
to pornography that he overcame with the help of rehab,
and he used his celebrity platform, he put it at
risk to talk about all of these things and more.
(01:57):
So I decided to sit down with him that Terry, first,
I want to start. I want to thank you. I
want to thank you for everything you do, specifically around masculinity.
And so I want to go back in time as
of me as a mom. I have two young sons
and a daughter. But I want to know when you
(02:17):
were a kid growing up, what do you think masculinity was?
What do you want to be? Wow, that's a big question. Um.
For me, what I thought masculinity was what's muscle? I
thought you had to be the strongest, you had to
be the toughest. And I have to say I started
(02:39):
up it was pretty innocent, just in you know comic
book heroes, and you know the images of manliness that
you saw back in the day. I mean I remember
walking around and there was Marlboro Men posters, and it
was like, that's a man, you know, he's he just
got off a horse and he's alone. But as a kid,
(02:59):
you like, I will everyone be alone? So maybe when
I get to be a man, and maybe one day
I'll be able to not feel bad about being alone,
you know what I mean? Because manliness was like I
walk alone, I do my thing. And I have to
say my father was the example. He had his own life.
(03:22):
He was separate from all of us. He was very abusive.
That was the image, and I was like, I wonder
if I'm gonna be like that. That was the big
I have to say. There's a difference between how men
take things and women. One thing I always say is
that men tend to be manipulated by pride. This is
(03:42):
the deal. Whereas a guy will look at another guy
and go, hey, man, I bet you can't jump off
that that rock over there, and I bet you I can,
And then a guy will jump off the right. Now
a woman will be in the center go hey, what
are you doing. Don't jump off that you can hurt yourself. Correct.
But if a woman walks into a party wearing the
same dress as another woman, she's crawling under a rock,
(04:04):
whereas two guys walk into a party wearing the same
thing and their chest bumping and don't we look good?
But now I want to flip this and this is
through what I have observed. I'm not a woman, so
I won't speak for women, but this is what when
what I've observed and how men have manipulated women. Men
have manipulated women through fear. It's like, hey, you know what,
(04:26):
you're not looking as good as you used to, or hey, uh,
you know what, aren't you afraid that I'm gonna run off?
They kind of play the fears of a woman, and
what happens is that's the way people are manipulated. But
one thing I discovered is that I Terry Crews had
(04:48):
to fight pride because that was a thing that was
making me do so many stupid things. Why did you
choose to write You're the portrait of masculinity? Whatever self
doubt you've got, that could live inside your shower as
you scream or cry, and then you could walk out
of that shower and be the big buff Terry that
(05:09):
we always knew. What made you decide to go on
this journey? Yeah, every man in his life at one
time or another. It's a fool, a victim, or a king. Now,
every man has a foolish dage, right, You're just a fool.
You're like, I'm gonna try it as you do dumb, dumb,
dumb things. But what problem is by doing those dumb things,
(05:32):
you really mess up things. Okay, something's gonna get messed up,
and then you become a victim. You switch gears. Well,
it was because of this, It was because I had.
Let me tell you, with victim hood, you never run
out of excuses. It was my mother, it was my father,
it was where I grew up. It was the teacher
I had, it was a wife, it was you never
(05:53):
run out. That table was always full. But then there's
the moment where you become the king. And the thing
is when you realize that you are responsible for everything
in your life, good and bad. If it's bad, you
did it. If it's good, you did that too. Everything
(06:13):
is your responsibility in your own life. And that it's like,
wait a minute, I didn't like something I should have.
I can tell her to get out of my courtroom.
But Terry, you were the victim of assault. That wasn't
your fault. But no, I didn't say it was my fault.
But what I am saying is as a victim, that's
a whole another thing. When you've been wrong, there's a
(06:36):
choice to make. There's a choice of me. And the
big thing I had to make was was I going
to stay here? You've moved from victimhood to survivor to
different places. I decided I was going to be a survivor.
A survivor fights back, a survivor stands for other survivors.
You see what I mean. But victimhood can be like, well,
(06:56):
you know what, this is just the way it is.
I'm gonna tell you that there are so many men.
I just spoke to the military. I went to South
Korea and spoke to the military all day. Victimhood doesn't
tell on other people. It literally stays right where it
is because this is where we are. It's their fault,
and you give power to other people. At the time,
(07:19):
I remember literally spending a year knowing that this man
did this to me, and I didn't say anything because
I felt like a victim, and I was like, well,
what can I do? So you woke up and decided
to become a survivor. Inspired by the women of the
Me Too movement. When I heard their story and these
(07:39):
women came forward and we're straw and honest about what
Harvey Weinstein did to them. I read that Ronan Faroal
story and I could not put it down. You know
what it was like, It's like I'm behind enemy lines
and I'm watching people escape through the fence, and I
was like, I think I can go through the fence.
But I was like, but I don't know. And then
(08:01):
I watched another one run out, and I watched another
person run out. But Terry, this goes back to toxic
masculinity or our expectations of men, because when you came out,
people were surprised. Lots of people were supportive, but some
people weren't. Some people mocked it. Some people are like,
what a man getting assaulted? I don't get it. First
of all, they were told I was told that it
(08:24):
was impossible. They were like, do you too big? Too big?
They've ever had that happen to you. That's like saying
a building is too big to get robbed, you know
what I mean. It's literally like, so size has something
to do with that. No, it doesn't. Were you vulnerable
because you needed a job. M. Yeah, there was vulnerability
there simply because I wanted to work. So that wouldn't
(08:46):
happen to you today. Oh no, not. Now, Let's say
let's say you hadn't come out with your story, but
you were significantly more successful terry crews. Do you think
you would have been a target or a victim of
a fault if you were much more established? Yeah? Really?
Oh no. First of all, the man's all to me.
(09:07):
I didn't care, you know what I mean? He was
more powerful than you. Well, that's the thing. That's the
nature of assault. You don't assault people you think are
as powerful as you are. You always have a superiority
over whoever you go after. If I was to hit
somebody in the face, it's because I believe I'm better
than them, or bigger than them, or stronger than them.
(09:29):
That's the only criteria. If you felt someone was actually
equal to you, you would never put your hands on them.
It's about superiority. It's about I'm over you, and it
is is that if you felt you were even you
wouldn't do that. This guy always felt like he was
over me. Hold on a second, because we have so
(09:49):
much more to talk about. We'll be right back after
a quick break, Welcome back to modern rules. Were you
surprised that you got any pushback when you came out? Actually,
I knew there would be some because I know my community,
(10:10):
I know the culture, I know sports culture, I knew
African American culture, and I knew people would be like what.
But because it was so important, there was a moment
that I was I remember talking to my wife. I
was like, it's bigger than us. We have to come
forward simply because there's so many people getting away with
(10:34):
this that if we don't add our names to the story.
I felt like a forest. I felt like a fraud
for it to happen to me and for me that
it remained silent. And this is a personal thing, and
my deal is it's always always seek help for yourself first.
Now you have to understand too. Before I came forward,
I have been through years of counseling, years of self reflection.
(10:59):
I had already wrote Manhood. You understand what I mean.
I had been before America was ready to read it.
That's the thing. I've already been through this stuff. When
I went back to my wife, I was like, Rebecca,
this is the stuff I'm talking about. This is the
toxicity that we need to fight because this attitude is ridiculous.
(11:21):
And when you wrote Manhood, what did publishers say? What
did agents say? My publisher literally felt like you know,
I mean I remember going on the press Stewart at
Last was like three days and it was over. I
was like, are we going to do anymore? I actually
still wanted to do an audiobook, and it wouldn't let
me do it. I couldn't believe. I think they thought
(11:43):
they wanted a really funny anecdotal book and they ended
up with a very serious, you know, topical, like what
is he talking about? Kind of book. I think they
felt men would be turned off. And I feel validated
right now. Who did you look up to when you're
a kid? Oh my god? I mean again, I watched
Bad Hour, I mean Bill Cosby. These are people who
(12:06):
were pivotal to me and then let me down, and
so it was really crushing. I have to say. When
the whole thing started to go down, because we had
heard rumors and this kind of thing, and even with
rappers and musicians and you start to see you like,
oh my god, these people were monsters. It hurts. It
(12:29):
still hurts you know what I mean. And there were
a lot of people I looked up to that I
can't look up to anymore. But I also realized I
got to fill that space. You know, it's not good
enough to just talk about what's bad. You have to
put good things out, and I think it can counteract
just a little bit of good really counteracts a ton
(12:50):
of bad. It's like if you carry a candle into
a dark room, the room is lit. You know what
I mean. Runs, you know what I mean, You got understand.
And it was like when I grew up, if you
couldn't fix your car, you weren't even a man. You
weren't even a man. They will be like, okay, I
didn't know anything about cars, and so they were like, dude, okay,
(13:11):
you know what, Go learn about cars and you'll be
a guy. I play the flute. Okay, I played the flute.
You know how many times I was called, oh man,
look at this, sinsy man, what are you doing? And
do it? And then I go to football. Prety, let
me tell you something. The cheer fact that I played
football was actually to read to fight the stuff I
was called. I was oriented, I was painting, drawing, I
(13:35):
had interested in entertainment. I still to this day love fashion,
but I was looked at as like, oh man, look
he's weak. But now listen, I'm stronger than you can
you call me weak, And so I felt like to
compensate for that, I would go into the gym, which
is a lot of it was a lot of people.
Do let me tell you something. This is another thing.
A lot of people don't know. There are lots and
(13:56):
lots of men one in six who have been molested,
have been sexually assaulted and have never ever come out
about it or never talked about it, but have overcompensated beings,
taking steroids, being more supermanly. If so manly, they can't
(14:19):
get me. You understand you're talking about And this is
this is facts one and six, And it's such an
epidemic that you know, it's one of the things that
when people finally come forward, this is what blew everyone away.
Even after I talked to Congress, there were six wrestlers
(14:40):
from Ohio State that came forward about the team doctor
that molested them. Wrestlers people who you would think are
the manliest, super strongest guys, toughest. They finally felt like
it was safe to come outside, and that's what I
want to tell people. I'm like, hey, man, it's safe.
You know what, Nothing's gonna happen to you. I is
going to take anything from you. You're not weak. In fact,
(15:03):
you're strong by telling your truth. We see more and
more the ways in which we expect men to be
and behave are evolving. Men are now grappling with the
lessons of their parents, and they're choosing whether or not
they want to pass them on to their kids. That's
a big theme we discussed with my next guest. He's
(15:24):
a Navy veteran, a restaurateur, Shan Dharty. He's an advocate
for child sex abuse survivors, but he's also a survivor
of child sex abuse himself. When he was in the
fifth grade, his priest abused him. It was a secret
he struggled with for many, many years of his childhood
as he grew up with seven siblings in Pennsylvania. When
(15:46):
you were growing up, the way we raised our children,
specifically are boys. They weren't emotional. They put their heads down,
they kept their mouth shut, and they forged ahead. And
now we're trying to give our boys the license to
open up to express themselves more. And it doesn't mean
that they can't be masculine, but it almost seems like
we're redefining what masculinity is. Do you think that's a
(16:09):
good thing, because some people don't. Whether people think it's
a good thing or it's not a good thing, that's
what's happening. But somebody with your dad's upbringing might say
this is wrong that we're letting our boys do this.
It's not wrong. And you know my dad, over the
course of my lifetime, that hard making still maker. I
have a homosexual brother, I have people of color in
(16:33):
my family. Now to where the father of old the
archie Bunker never go for that. But he was forced
with you know, what's he gonna do Is he gonna
throw a son out? So what did he do? Embraced him,
lived with it, drank. You know, I never really understood it,
(16:54):
but you know, didn't stop loving. My dad was a
very good guy, but he was brought up very hard.
But look, his father would have beat him up with
a baseball bat. My dad didn't. This generation were trans
sexuals in the military. You know, I'm a military veteran.
A lot of people don't like what I say about
(17:14):
the military. But you know, we weren't allowed, you know,
black people weren't allowed to serve in the military before.
They said that that was going to disrupt the unit.
Well it did disrupt the unit, didn't it. But so
all the divisions that we talk about all the time,
you see them as smaller and smaller, like you see progress.
That Western Pennsylvania home is changed today, very changed today.
(17:38):
But you know, some things for the better, some things
for the worst. You know, opioids. My town is being
crushed by opioids. But you know what, now we're at
least talking about why Before when I was a kid, Hey,
there's a bar in a church on every corner and town.
Why is it? Oh? Now, as an adult, I know
there's a bar in every corner because there's a church
(17:58):
on the opposite corner. You need it, you know, you're
you're yourself medicating. Well, at least now we're talking about
it the masculine. They're saying, I need help. We're going
to be right back after a quick break, Welcome back
(18:19):
to modern rules. My friend Amir is a polly math,
a musician, a composer, and entertainer. You might know him
as a quest love He's been in the music industry
for a long time as a member of the Roots,
as a band leader for Jimmy Fallon, and as a
producer of Hamilton's as a man who has spoken out
(18:39):
on gender, race, celebrity, inequality, and many other seminal discussions
for as long as I've known him. In our wide
ranging interview, we get right to the heart of what
makes masculinity so tricky, and somehow we managed to work
in Beyonce and Prince along the way. I want to
talk to you about masculinity because right now there's this
(19:02):
toxic masculinity and and and people are saying we're going
after you know what represents being a man, and and
and we have phrases like man up. But when I
look at all of the loneliness, when I look at
the school shooters and the boxes that young boys are
put in because they've got to be so tough and
they can't show emotion, I see a positive that we're
(19:24):
now giving license to say you don't just have to
shut up and be tough. You can be more than that.
But there's a lot of pushback against it. And now
we're insulting a man's masculine identity. It's where now I'll
joke and say like, yeah, you know, my dad was
Joe Jackson drill sergeant type. But I mean he definitely
was from the school of like, well, your mom can
do the nurturing. I'm the tough love sheriff. But as
(19:47):
a result, we really didn't have a tender relationship that
until really like the last year of his life. I mean,
he's on his deathbed and we finally, you know, shed
and it was weird, like, wow, dad knows how to cry.
I never knew that. And it's weird because even now
my band members, I'm the only route without a kid.
(20:10):
It's one thing when they're newborns, but now they are
twelve and fourteen going through the same problems that you're
going through. And often the discussion is I want to
be the progressive parent that talks and explains to my child,
or how should I handle this particular situation. And it's
everyday situations from acting up in school, who's this friend
(20:30):
you're hanging out with, what's this girl doing here? That
sort of thing, And now the debate is whether or
not to repeat the cycle of what our fathers taught us,
or do we just talk. Most black fathers and black
families look at white people crazy when it's like, go
to time out. I wish I knew a timeout was.
(20:51):
I did not know a time out. Trust me, I
was a white girl that got spanked many a time. Well, okay,
so you know what's up. That's what I'm dealing with now,
Like what is what is the proper answer is talking
and explaining and having faith that your child will make
the right decision. Will that be effective or will you
(21:12):
be like me? You know, twenty years into therapy, dealing
with the undoing of everything that I was taught in,
learning a new process. Not everyone as fortunate as I
am to afford the best therapist and to get these lessons. Yeah,
and we do live in a toxic masculine culture right now.
(21:35):
But then do we need to not abandon what masculinity
is but look at it in a different way? Right
I think we need to redefine it. And I think
that real masculinity is Prince is a great example. Chris
Rocks said that what's more confident masculine than knowing that
a guy in high heeled boots can steal your woman?
(21:58):
I mean that, to me, is is the definition of
true masculinity is being in touch with your feelings and
not suppressing or again being performative, because there's also performative
masculinity behind closed doors. I've seen the toughest of the
tough cry like babies over my dog died today, but
(22:19):
then going you know what's up, motherfucker? You know that
sort of thing. So it's the ideal performative is again
putting uh facade or a mask on so that you
can get through everyday life. Then quest what do we do.
When my second son was five years old and we
were looking at schools, I want to go see a
(22:40):
co ed school. And when they gave me a tour,
they said, and this is the field where the boys
play lacrosse, and this is where the girls have chorus practice,
and this is where the girls yeah, and this is
where the girls do are this is the wrestling room
for the boys. And that son, for me, loves music,
he loves writing, he loves acting. And in the end
(23:00):
I made the decision to send him to an all
boys school. And it was because if he's in an
all boys environment, there's no boy activity or girl activity.
Everybody just does everything. And for me, I wanted to
protect him from those labels until he was, you know,
in the eighth grade, and by then he was confident
and he knew what lane he would want to be in.
Do we need to change? I'm seeing slow change. You know,
(23:23):
it's weird. And I joked it this all the time
whenever I played Beyonce song it's a call to all
women to come to the dance floor, and most men
start looking at their invisible watches like, um, gonna go
over there, Like I never see a guy dances single
ladies or the intro to Crazy and Love, Like I
(23:44):
never see a guy like strut that her music is
so ubiquitous. But it's almost like I struggled to find
one guy that was like, oh my god, drunken love
is you know that sort of thing? Who areun the world?
Girls who don't know any guys who can't wait to
get out there when I want to see a sea
change on the floor and to see all women dance.
(24:05):
Beyonce's that person. But yet if all women are dancing,
then guys are like, Okay, I gotta figure out my
way back onto the dance. So she holds that power now,
So here's what I'm hearing about masculinity. It is shifting.
Something that men and women thought they understood is changing.
(24:27):
And I get it that confusion is unsettling for a
lot of guys out there. It's confusing for women too.
These changes can offend people, not on purpose, but especially
when you think about identities that we inherit from our parents,
and now we've decided to change those rules. That's hard
for other generations. And if we want to make these changes,
(24:49):
we need to think about it sooner. We need to
think about it from our kids first memories when we
divide them in school and sports and the games that
they play. And it doesn't mean that games are wrong.
It doesn't mean that conduct should be forbidden. What I'm
learning is it can be more. Men can be all
(25:11):
of these traditional things and more. Something that I disagree
with is saying disbehavior is wrong and there shouldn't be
a man of the household and a man shouldn't do that.
Why does there have to be I shouldn't. Why do
we have to devolve into this? While a man can't
open a door and a man can't pay a bill,
stop what it can't. So here's what I'm going to
(25:34):
do in my own life and on the platforms that
I have, I'm going to be aware of these labels.
I'm going to think about who's the boss and commercials
and who's carrying the laundry basket. I'm going to think
about those word choices to my kids. It doesn't mean
my daughter can't be a princess. It doesn't mean my
son can't be the star of the cabaret show. It
(25:55):
just means we've got to offer more opportunities. So I,
for one, what I'm gonna do is judge less and
do more. This has been our conversation on masculinity. Thank
you for listening and bringing an open mind and helping
me create Modern Rules. I want more of this conversation.
Go deeper and read this week's Modern Rules feature only
(26:18):
on NBC news dot com slash Better. That's it for
today's episode. I'm your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very
special thanks to the extraordinary people who made this happen.
My producers Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen, and Anne Bark, Audio
(26:42):
Michael Byett for booking and wrangling the amazing guests who
joined us, Julian Weller for editing and bill plaques. Michael
Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise. Special thanks
to Steve lick Tide, Barbara Rab, Jonathan Wald, Marie Dugo,
Holly traz Nikki Etre, and Christina it. Our executive producers
are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatiga Door and of course
(27:05):
the men who brought us all together, Chairman and CEO
of I Heart Media Bob Pittman and Chairman of NBC
News Andy Lack. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows,
This episode includes discussion about sexual abuse that some listeners
might find disturbing. You're listening to Modern Rules, a production
of MSNBC and I Heart Radio. True masculinity is being
in touch with your feelings and not suppressing or again
being performative. His father would have beat him up with
(00:20):
a baseball bat. My dad didn't. Every man in his life,
at one time or another, is a fool, a victim,
or king. I'm Sephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent,
and this is Modern Rules. In this season of Modern Rules,
(00:50):
I'm going to be spending time unpacking the harriest conversations
from privilege to political correctness, to try and figure out
how we can navigate this changing world and break through,
to actually talk with and learn from the people who
disagree with us and maybe just maybe learned something along
the way. Together on Modern Rules, We're gonna get into
(01:13):
masculinity and the changing rules for both men and women
with my guests Terry Crews, Shown Dherty, and Request Love.
That's coming up on Modern Rules. When you think super masculinity,
mega guy, you think big strong athlete, the rock or
maybe my first guest, Terry Cruz he is a portrait
(01:36):
of that, but he's also a lot more. Terry's a
comedian and he's an author. He's also a survivor of
sexual assault, and he's been very open about his addiction
to pornography that he overcame with the help of rehab,
and he used his celebrity platform, he put it at
risk to talk about all of these things and more.
(01:57):
So I decided to sit down with him that Terry, first,
I want to start. I want to thank you. I
want to thank you for everything you do, specifically around masculinity.
And so I want to go back in time as
of me as a mom. I have two young sons
and a daughter. But I want to know when you
(02:17):
were a kid growing up, what do you think masculinity was?
What do you want to be? Wow, that's a big question. Um.
For me, what I thought masculinity was what's muscle? I
thought you had to be the strongest, you had to
be the toughest. And I have to say I started
(02:39):
up it was pretty innocent, just in you know comic
book heroes, and you know the images of manliness that
you saw back in the day. I mean I remember
walking around and there was Marlboro Men posters, and it
was like, that's a man, you know, he's he just
got off a horse and he's alone. But as a kid,
(02:59):
you like, I will everyone be alone? So maybe when
I get to be a man, and maybe one day
I'll be able to not feel bad about being alone,
you know what I mean? Because manliness was like I
walk alone, I do my thing. And I have to
say my father was the example. He had his own life.
(03:22):
He was separate from all of us. He was very abusive.
That was the image, and I was like, I wonder
if I'm gonna be like that. That was the big
I have to say. There's a difference between how men
take things and women. One thing I always say is
that men tend to be manipulated by pride. This is
(03:42):
the deal. Whereas a guy will look at another guy
and go, hey, man, I bet you can't jump off
that that rock over there, and I bet you I can,
And then a guy will jump off the right. Now
a woman will be in the center go hey, what
are you doing. Don't jump off that you can hurt yourself. Correct.
But if a woman walks into a party wearing the
same dress as another woman, she's crawling under a rock,
(04:04):
whereas two guys walk into a party wearing the same
thing and their chest bumping and don't we look good?
But now I want to flip this and this is
through what I have observed. I'm not a woman, so
I won't speak for women, but this is what when
what I've observed and how men have manipulated women. Men
have manipulated women through fear. It's like, hey, you know what,
(04:26):
you're not looking as good as you used to, or hey, uh,
you know what, aren't you afraid that I'm gonna run off?
They kind of play the fears of a woman, and
what happens is that's the way people are manipulated. But
one thing I discovered is that I Terry Crews had
(04:48):
to fight pride because that was a thing that was
making me do so many stupid things. Why did you
choose to write You're the portrait of masculinity? Whatever self
doubt you've got, that could live inside your shower as
you scream or cry, and then you could walk out
of that shower and be the big buff Terry that
(05:09):
we always knew. What made you decide to go on
this journey? Yeah, every man in his life at one
time or another. It's a fool, a victim, or a king. Now,
every man has a foolish dage, right, You're just a fool.
You're like, I'm gonna try it as you do dumb, dumb,
dumb things. But what problem is by doing those dumb things,
(05:32):
you really mess up things. Okay, something's gonna get messed up,
and then you become a victim. You switch gears. Well,
it was because of this, It was because I had.
Let me tell you, with victim hood, you never run
out of excuses. It was my mother, it was my father,
it was where I grew up. It was the teacher
I had, it was a wife, it was you never
(05:53):
run out. That table was always full. But then there's
the moment where you become the king. And the thing
is when you realize that you are responsible for everything
in your life, good and bad. If it's bad, you
did it. If it's good, you did that too. Everything
(06:13):
is your responsibility in your own life. And that it's like,
wait a minute, I didn't like something I should have.
I can tell her to get out of my courtroom.
But Terry, you were the victim of assault. That wasn't
your fault. But no, I didn't say it was my fault.
But what I am saying is as a victim, that's
a whole another thing. When you've been wrong, there's a
(06:36):
choice to make. There's a choice of me. And the
big thing I had to make was was I going
to stay here? You've moved from victimhood to survivor to
different places. I decided I was going to be a survivor.
A survivor fights back, a survivor stands for other survivors.
You see what I mean. But victimhood can be like, well,
(06:56):
you know what, this is just the way it is.
I'm gonna tell you that there are so many men.
I just spoke to the military. I went to South
Korea and spoke to the military all day. Victimhood doesn't
tell on other people. It literally stays right where it
is because this is where we are. It's their fault,
and you give power to other people. At the time,
(07:19):
I remember literally spending a year knowing that this man
did this to me, and I didn't say anything because
I felt like a victim, and I was like, well,
what can I do? So you woke up and decided
to become a survivor. Inspired by the women of the
Me Too movement. When I heard their story and these
(07:39):
women came forward and we're straw and honest about what
Harvey Weinstein did to them. I read that Ronan Faroal
story and I could not put it down. You know
what it was like, It's like I'm behind enemy lines
and I'm watching people escape through the fence, and I
was like, I think I can go through the fence.
But I was like, but I don't know. And then
(08:01):
I watched another one run out, and I watched another
person run out. But Terry, this goes back to toxic
masculinity or our expectations of men, because when you came out,
people were surprised. Lots of people were supportive, but some
people weren't. Some people mocked it. Some people are like,
what a man getting assaulted? I don't get it. First
of all, they were told I was told that it
(08:24):
was impossible. They were like, do you too big? Too big?
They've ever had that happen to you. That's like saying
a building is too big to get robbed, you know
what I mean. It's literally like, so size has something
to do with that. No, it doesn't. Were you vulnerable
because you needed a job. M. Yeah, there was vulnerability
there simply because I wanted to work. So that wouldn't
(08:46):
happen to you today. Oh no, not. Now, Let's say
let's say you hadn't come out with your story, but
you were significantly more successful terry crews. Do you think
you would have been a target or a victim of
a fault if you were much more established? Yeah? Really?
Oh no. First of all, the man's all to me.
(09:07):
I didn't care, you know what I mean? He was
more powerful than you. Well, that's the thing. That's the
nature of assault. You don't assault people you think are
as powerful as you are. You always have a superiority
over whoever you go after. If I was to hit
somebody in the face, it's because I believe I'm better
than them, or bigger than them, or stronger than them.
(09:29):
That's the only criteria. If you felt someone was actually
equal to you, you would never put your hands on them.
It's about superiority. It's about I'm over you, and it
is is that if you felt you were even you
wouldn't do that. This guy always felt like he was
over me. Hold on a second, because we have so
(09:49):
much more to talk about. We'll be right back after
a quick break, Welcome back to modern rules. Were you
surprised that you got any pushback when you came out? Actually,
I knew there would be some because I know my community,
(10:10):
I know the culture, I know sports culture, I knew
African American culture, and I knew people would be like what.
But because it was so important, there was a moment
that I was I remember talking to my wife. I
was like, it's bigger than us. We have to come
forward simply because there's so many people getting away with
(10:34):
this that if we don't add our names to the story.
I felt like a forest. I felt like a fraud
for it to happen to me and for me that
it remained silent. And this is a personal thing, and
my deal is it's always always seek help for yourself first.
Now you have to understand too. Before I came forward,
I have been through years of counseling, years of self reflection.
(10:59):
I had already wrote Manhood. You understand what I mean.
I had been before America was ready to read it.
That's the thing. I've already been through this stuff. When
I went back to my wife, I was like, Rebecca,
this is the stuff I'm talking about. This is the
toxicity that we need to fight because this attitude is ridiculous.
(11:21):
And when you wrote Manhood, what did publishers say? What
did agents say? My publisher literally felt like you know,
I mean I remember going on the press Stewart at
Last was like three days and it was over. I
was like, are we going to do anymore? I actually
still wanted to do an audiobook, and it wouldn't let
me do it. I couldn't believe. I think they thought
(11:43):
they wanted a really funny anecdotal book and they ended
up with a very serious, you know, topical, like what
is he talking about? Kind of book. I think they
felt men would be turned off. And I feel validated
right now. Who did you look up to when you're
a kid? Oh my god? I mean again, I watched
Bad Hour, I mean Bill Cosby. These are people who
(12:06):
were pivotal to me and then let me down, and
so it was really crushing. I have to say. When
the whole thing started to go down, because we had
heard rumors and this kind of thing, and even with
rappers and musicians and you start to see you like,
oh my god, these people were monsters. It hurts. It
(12:29):
still hurts you know what I mean. And there were
a lot of people I looked up to that I
can't look up to anymore. But I also realized I
got to fill that space. You know, it's not good
enough to just talk about what's bad. You have to
put good things out, and I think it can counteract
just a little bit of good really counteracts a ton
(12:50):
of bad. It's like if you carry a candle into
a dark room, the room is lit. You know what
I mean. Runs, you know what I mean, You got understand.
And it was like when I grew up, if you
couldn't fix your car, you weren't even a man. You
weren't even a man. They will be like, okay, I
didn't know anything about cars, and so they were like, dude, okay,
(13:11):
you know what, Go learn about cars and you'll be
a guy. I play the flute. Okay, I played the flute.
You know how many times I was called, oh man,
look at this, sinsy man, what are you doing? And
do it? And then I go to football. Prety, let
me tell you something. The cheer fact that I played
football was actually to read to fight the stuff I
was called. I was oriented, I was painting, drawing, I
(13:35):
had interested in entertainment. I still to this day love fashion,
but I was looked at as like, oh man, look
he's weak. But now listen, I'm stronger than you can
you call me weak, And so I felt like to
compensate for that, I would go into the gym, which
is a lot of it was a lot of people.
Do let me tell you something. This is another thing.
A lot of people don't know. There are lots and
(13:56):
lots of men one in six who have been molested,
have been sexually assaulted and have never ever come out
about it or never talked about it, but have overcompensated beings,
taking steroids, being more supermanly. If so manly, they can't
(14:19):
get me. You understand you're talking about And this is
this is facts one and six, And it's such an
epidemic that you know, it's one of the things that
when people finally come forward, this is what blew everyone away.
Even after I talked to Congress, there were six wrestlers
(14:40):
from Ohio State that came forward about the team doctor
that molested them. Wrestlers people who you would think are
the manliest, super strongest guys, toughest. They finally felt like
it was safe to come outside, and that's what I
want to tell people. I'm like, hey, man, it's safe.
You know what, Nothing's gonna happen to you. I is
going to take anything from you. You're not weak. In fact,
(15:03):
you're strong by telling your truth. We see more and
more the ways in which we expect men to be
and behave are evolving. Men are now grappling with the
lessons of their parents, and they're choosing whether or not
they want to pass them on to their kids. That's
a big theme we discussed with my next guest. He's
(15:24):
a Navy veteran, a restaurateur, Shan Dharty. He's an advocate
for child sex abuse survivors, but he's also a survivor
of child sex abuse himself. When he was in the
fifth grade, his priest abused him. It was a secret
he struggled with for many, many years of his childhood
as he grew up with seven siblings in Pennsylvania. When
(15:46):
you were growing up, the way we raised our children,
specifically are boys. They weren't emotional. They put their heads down,
they kept their mouth shut, and they forged ahead. And
now we're trying to give our boys the license to
open up to express themselves more. And it doesn't mean
that they can't be masculine, but it almost seems like
we're redefining what masculinity is. Do you think that's a
(16:09):
good thing, because some people don't. Whether people think it's
a good thing or it's not a good thing, that's
what's happening. But somebody with your dad's upbringing might say
this is wrong that we're letting our boys do this.
It's not wrong. And you know my dad, over the
course of my lifetime, that hard making still maker. I
have a homosexual brother, I have people of color in
(16:33):
my family. Now to where the father of old the
archie Bunker never go for that. But he was forced
with you know, what's he gonna do Is he gonna
throw a son out? So what did he do? Embraced him,
lived with it, drank. You know, I never really understood it,
(16:54):
but you know, didn't stop loving. My dad was a
very good guy, but he was brought up very hard.
But look, his father would have beat him up with
a baseball bat. My dad didn't. This generation were trans
sexuals in the military. You know, I'm a military veteran.
A lot of people don't like what I say about
(17:14):
the military. But you know, we weren't allowed, you know,
black people weren't allowed to serve in the military before.
They said that that was going to disrupt the unit.
Well it did disrupt the unit, didn't it. But so
all the divisions that we talk about all the time,
you see them as smaller and smaller, like you see progress.
That Western Pennsylvania home is changed today, very changed today.
(17:38):
But you know, some things for the better, some things
for the worst. You know, opioids. My town is being
crushed by opioids. But you know what, now we're at
least talking about why Before when I was a kid, Hey,
there's a bar in a church on every corner and town.
Why is it? Oh? Now, as an adult, I know
there's a bar in every corner because there's a church
(17:58):
on the opposite corner. You need it, you know, you're
you're yourself medicating. Well, at least now we're talking about
it the masculine. They're saying, I need help. We're going
to be right back after a quick break, Welcome back
(18:19):
to modern rules. My friend Amir is a polly math,
a musician, a composer, and entertainer. You might know him
as a quest love He's been in the music industry
for a long time as a member of the Roots,
as a band leader for Jimmy Fallon, and as a
producer of Hamilton's as a man who has spoken out
(18:39):
on gender, race, celebrity, inequality, and many other seminal discussions
for as long as I've known him. In our wide
ranging interview, we get right to the heart of what
makes masculinity so tricky, and somehow we managed to work
in Beyonce and Prince along the way. I want to
talk to you about masculinity because right now there's this
(19:02):
toxic masculinity and and and people are saying we're going
after you know what represents being a man, and and
and we have phrases like man up. But when I
look at all of the loneliness, when I look at
the school shooters and the boxes that young boys are
put in because they've got to be so tough and
they can't show emotion, I see a positive that we're
(19:24):
now giving license to say you don't just have to
shut up and be tough. You can be more than that.
But there's a lot of pushback against it. And now
we're insulting a man's masculine identity. It's where now I'll
joke and say like, yeah, you know, my dad was
Joe Jackson drill sergeant type. But I mean he definitely
was from the school of like, well, your mom can
do the nurturing. I'm the tough love sheriff. But as
(19:47):
a result, we really didn't have a tender relationship that
until really like the last year of his life. I mean,
he's on his deathbed and we finally, you know, shed
and it was weird, like, wow, dad knows how to cry.
I never knew that. And it's weird because even now
my band members, I'm the only route without a kid.
(20:10):
It's one thing when they're newborns, but now they are
twelve and fourteen going through the same problems that you're
going through. And often the discussion is I want to
be the progressive parent that talks and explains to my child,
or how should I handle this particular situation. And it's
everyday situations from acting up in school, who's this friend
(20:30):
you're hanging out with, what's this girl doing here? That
sort of thing, And now the debate is whether or
not to repeat the cycle of what our fathers taught us,
or do we just talk. Most black fathers and black
families look at white people crazy when it's like, go
to time out. I wish I knew a timeout was.
(20:51):
I did not know a time out. Trust me, I
was a white girl that got spanked many a time. Well, okay,
so you know what's up. That's what I'm dealing with now,
Like what is what is the proper answer is talking
and explaining and having faith that your child will make
the right decision. Will that be effective or will you
(21:12):
be like me? You know, twenty years into therapy, dealing
with the undoing of everything that I was taught in,
learning a new process. Not everyone as fortunate as I
am to afford the best therapist and to get these lessons. Yeah,
and we do live in a toxic masculine culture right now.
(21:35):
But then do we need to not abandon what masculinity
is but look at it in a different way? Right
I think we need to redefine it. And I think
that real masculinity is Prince is a great example. Chris
Rocks said that what's more confident masculine than knowing that
a guy in high heeled boots can steal your woman?
(21:58):
I mean that, to me, is is the definition of
true masculinity is being in touch with your feelings and
not suppressing or again being performative, because there's also performative
masculinity behind closed doors. I've seen the toughest of the
tough cry like babies over my dog died today, but
(22:19):
then going you know what's up, motherfucker? You know that
sort of thing. So it's the ideal performative is again
putting uh facade or a mask on so that you
can get through everyday life. Then quest what do we do.
When my second son was five years old and we
were looking at schools, I want to go see a
(22:40):
co ed school. And when they gave me a tour,
they said, and this is the field where the boys
play lacrosse, and this is where the girls have chorus practice,
and this is where the girls yeah, and this is
where the girls do are this is the wrestling room
for the boys. And that son, for me, loves music,
he loves writing, he loves acting. And in the end
(23:00):
I made the decision to send him to an all
boys school. And it was because if he's in an
all boys environment, there's no boy activity or girl activity.
Everybody just does everything. And for me, I wanted to
protect him from those labels until he was, you know,
in the eighth grade, and by then he was confident
and he knew what lane he would want to be in.
Do we need to change? I'm seeing slow change. You know,
(23:23):
it's weird. And I joked it this all the time
whenever I played Beyonce song it's a call to all
women to come to the dance floor, and most men
start looking at their invisible watches like, um, gonna go
over there, Like I never see a guy dances single
ladies or the intro to Crazy and Love, Like I
(23:44):
never see a guy like strut that her music is
so ubiquitous. But it's almost like I struggled to find
one guy that was like, oh my god, drunken love
is you know that sort of thing? Who areun the world?
Girls who don't know any guys who can't wait to
get out there when I want to see a sea
change on the floor and to see all women dance.
(24:05):
Beyonce's that person. But yet if all women are dancing,
then guys are like, Okay, I gotta figure out my
way back onto the dance. So she holds that power now,
So here's what I'm hearing about masculinity. It is shifting.
Something that men and women thought they understood is changing.
(24:27):
And I get it that confusion is unsettling for a
lot of guys out there. It's confusing for women too.
These changes can offend people, not on purpose, but especially
when you think about identities that we inherit from our parents,
and now we've decided to change those rules. That's hard
for other generations. And if we want to make these changes,
(24:49):
we need to think about it sooner. We need to
think about it from our kids first memories when we
divide them in school and sports and the games that
they play. And it doesn't mean that games are wrong.
It doesn't mean that conduct should be forbidden. What I'm
learning is it can be more. Men can be all
(25:11):
of these traditional things and more. Something that I disagree
with is saying disbehavior is wrong and there shouldn't be
a man of the household and a man shouldn't do that.
Why does there have to be I shouldn't. Why do
we have to devolve into this? While a man can't
open a door and a man can't pay a bill,
stop what it can't. So here's what I'm going to
(25:34):
do in my own life and on the platforms that
I have, I'm going to be aware of these labels.
I'm going to think about who's the boss and commercials
and who's carrying the laundry basket. I'm going to think
about those word choices to my kids. It doesn't mean
my daughter can't be a princess. It doesn't mean my
son can't be the star of the cabaret show. It
(25:55):
just means we've got to offer more opportunities. So I,
for one, what I'm gonna do is judge less and
do more. This has been our conversation on masculinity. Thank
you for listening and bringing an open mind and helping
me create Modern Rules. I want more of this conversation.
Go deeper and read this week's Modern Rules feature only
(26:18):
on NBC news dot com slash Better. That's it for
today's episode. I'm your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very
special thanks to the extraordinary people who made this happen.
My producers Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen, and Anne Bark, Audio
(26:42):
Michael Byett for booking and wrangling the amazing guests who
joined us, Julian Weller for editing and bill plaques. Michael
Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise. Special thanks
to Steve lick Tide, Barbara Rab, Jonathan Wald, Marie Dugo,
Holly traz Nikki Etre, and Christina it. Our executive producers
are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatiga Door and of course
(27:05):
the men who brought us all together, Chairman and CEO
of I Heart Media Bob Pittman and Chairman of NBC
News Andy Lack. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows,
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