The privilege we are born with – or acquire along the way – is often difficult to identify and acknowledge…but even more challenging to give up. In this episode, Stephanie Ruhle gets personal with her own husband, Andy Hubbard, founder of Girls Who Code, Reshma Saujani, and CEO of Robin Hood Foundation Wes Moore to discuss how to challenge the power structures in place so that everyone can have a seat at the table.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and
I Heart Radio. Power Corrupts. You see it all over
the place. When people get to the top, they say
the rules don't apply to me. I'm better than everybody else.
I mean, I think the first thing is you have
to have a conversation about privilege and about power right
and would be honest about it. We are taking power
(00:20):
away from white men. I want people to understand that
we don't live in a society where zero sum, That
we don't live in a society where in order for
this person to gain it means I must lose. We
have to use our voice to be able to say
we don't have to subscribe to these old ways, in
these old ways of thinking about how the world apportions opportunity.
(00:47):
I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent, and
this is Modern Rules. In this season of Modern Rules,
I'm going to be spending time unpacking the harriest conversations
(01:08):
from privilege to political correctness, to try and figure out
how we can navigate this changing world and break through
to actually talk with and learn from the people who
disagree with us, and maybe just maybe learn something along
the way. It's easy for me, as somebody who lives
in a brownstone on the Upper East Side, as somebody
(01:30):
whose kids all go to fancy New York City private schools,
I can advocate for social issues because they're far far
away from me. They don't really impact my daily life.
And if they did impact my life, if my kids
or my family was hurt in any way by this,
what I care so much about these issues Today on
(01:51):
Modern Rules, we're talking privilege, and I'm gonna be speaking
to a few people who know quite a bit about
how privilege impacts us, both personally and professionally. One of
the trickiest parts about discussing privilege is actually acknowledging your own.
In this episode, I'm going to dig deep with politician
and Girls Who Code founder Rushmasa, Johnny Army, veteran author,
(02:13):
social activist and CEO of Robin Hood Westmore, and somebody
very near and dear to me, my own husband, Andy Hubbard.
The conversation about privilege is one that is very very
close to me in my mind, I don't think I
grew up with a lot of privilege. Now, a lot
of others would say, you absolutely did You're a white
(02:33):
girl from the Northeast who went to a really good
school and then you went on to work on Wall
Street and now you have a TV show. So yes,
that sure sounds privileged. But I married somebody who's the
definition of it. I mentioned it before. I want to
bring him into the conversation in a real way and
gives sort of this textbook example of the guy who
(02:54):
goes to a prep school, who plays a prep school sport,
who then goes on to an Ivy League college and
then Wall Street has come on over. My dearest person,
my number one my husband, Andy Hubbard. Andy Hubbard, my
number one man. Obviously you're my husband. That's why I
invite you here today to join me. I'm not knocking
(03:15):
how smart or talented you are, but your path seemed
really natural, right. You went to a super elite high school,
you went to a super elite college, and then you
went and worked on Wall Street and you and I
met because we were in the same training program at
Credit Swiss. I went to a public school in New Jersey.
I went to Lehigh. I decided I wanted to work
(03:37):
in banking. I wrote endless letters to Lehi alumni and
you and I both showed up in New York City
on the first day of Credit swisses training program, and
when we did, I didn't know a single person. I
didn't even know what anyone did there for a living.
And you had an awesome network as soon as you
got there, trading floors filled with loads of guys who
look and sound like you, who all played college lacrosse,
(03:58):
who were Hey, Andy, come sit with Amy, let me
teach you. I'll be your mentor come join my desk.
Did you realize at the time how much privilege you
had in a way? I know. It's definitely the lacrosse
connection that got me the intro to Wall Street. The
class ahead of me at Princeton. I think something like
ten of the eleven lacrosse players went to work on
Wall Street after they graduated, and there were many of
(04:21):
them saying, Andy, you should do this. It's gonna be
really great. You're you're smart, you can figure out these derivatives.
You can make it a lot of money and we'll
have a lot of fun. It'll be great. You should
really do it. And so a friend of mine made
the introduction. He said, you know, someone at Credit Swiss
is looking for a derivative salesperson, you should really give
this a shot. So I did, and so I definitely
knew that it was it was luck in those connections
that brought me there, and you know, when I got there,
(04:43):
it was it was certainly some lacrosse layers, but a
lot of it was just other Princeton alumni that I
met at the bank who would help me. And so
it's incredibly powerful. I mean, I think that's a major
reason why some people try to get to these elite schools.
I don't think a lot of people go to Harvard
Business will for what they learn. They go for the connections,
they go for the network, They go for the job
(05:05):
opportunities that it gives them because of where they are,
not because of what they know. Then, are strong networks
a good thing or a bad thing, because obviously they've
served you, But you had access to all of these
networks and lots of other people didn't even know that
these opportunities existed, and because of that, it only further
(05:26):
advances privilege. Right, that's a tough question. I think they
are a reality, and they're certainly not fair. Privilege does
tend to perpetuate itself. The privilege are gonna do everything
possible to maintain that privilege. Maybe not everything possible. They
often want to make the appearance of trying to level
(05:47):
the blankfield, but they're going to try to do that
without actually jeopardizing their own privilege. But I think it
is a reality, and I think we do have an
obligation to try to make society as fair as possible.
But I think it's never going to be completely fair.
But in order to make society more fair, that requires
giving up privilege, right. I think it's simple. It's good
(06:09):
for society, it's bad for the people to enjoy the privilege.
I think that that's when you get a lot of
pain in the world. When people had something and is
taken away from them. I think that feels a lot
worse than in many cases, that feels a lot worse
than never having it at all. I think that's when
people get angry and and fight for it. I say,
you know, I'm used to having this, therefore I deserve it,
(06:31):
and you're trying to take it away from me. And
I think that's people fight for those sort of things.
If you never really tasted it in the first place,
it's kind of like easy come, easy go. So I think,
do you really think it's easy, come, easy go? Do
you really think all the women who don't get top
opportunities and investment banks, or minority candidates who don't get
(06:51):
to meet the top law firms and then get on
the partner track, do you really think they're saying, easy, come,
easy go up? Just let the white guys have it.
You know, who cares that I never got to do it? No,
definitely not. That's not what I mean. But if you
never You're right, I'm taking a much smaller view. But
if you never experienced something and you had it once
and then you never had it again, you don't really
(07:11):
come to expect it. But if you had it, you
know every day of your life and that's taken away,
it feels different. Talk about this a little bit. Where
I came from this sort of pedigree of good schools
and you came from a public school and you didn't
have sports kind of leading you into your Wall Street creer.
Are you knocking my high school cheerleading career? True? Did
(07:31):
that was that a pipeline to also? So it was
a pipeline to awesome? So what it was was a
pipeline for Street skills, and hustle, So you know, it
wasn't easy for you. It's easy for a lot of
you know, Princeton grads to get an interview at Wall Street.
Not so easy if you're not part of these select schools.
And so you had to figure out other ways to
(07:53):
get ahead, and you figured out hustle, grit, tenacity, which
I feel hearth that some privileged kids don't have. So
I think I saw plenty of this at Princeton from
kids who went to the top schools just felt they
deserved everything just to be handed to them. It just
kind of fell into their lap, and so they didn't
have that hustle. You mean all the young guys who
(08:15):
when you and I were both in investment banking and
i'd be doing recruiting, I would interview and they'd be
like sweet because they knew I was married to you,
and they were college lacrosse players, and they thought it
would be a totally easy, awesome, hooked up interview until
I would tear up their resumes, swallowed them, and then
kick them out of the room because I couldn't because
I was choking on their privilege. Do you mean those guys, yes,
(08:37):
And and By the way, I think some of those
kids felt it the same when they interviewed with me
and said, oh, I played across, this is gonna be easy.
So I would say it got a lot of people
in the door, but it wouldn't get them a job.
If you weren't qualified, just being a lacrosse player didn't
get you the job. There was one kid that interviewed
who absolutely bombed the interview and so sorry. I mean,
(08:57):
you know, I like your sport and everything, but not
going to cut it. Why do you think some privileged people,
by nature of being privileged, become awful And here's what
I mean. Think about high school. The prettiest, most popular
girls become the most twisted, elite, mean girls guys who
are the best athletes, right, but think about all the
(09:19):
stories of horrible, awful, misogynistic, abusive, hazing behaviors that whether
they happen at the best fraternities or on the best
sports teams or by the coolest girls in theory, wouldn't
you think that the luckiest people would be the most
generous and instead you've seen the opposite practices. Yeah, I
(09:40):
don't think it's unusual at all. I think why why
does it exist. Power corrupts. You see it all over
the place. When people get to the top, they say
the rules don't apply to me. I'm better than everybody else,
and that's proven by where I am right now. So
clearly the rules that apply to everybody else don't apply
to me. I can break them. I can be a jerk,
I can cheat on my taxes. I can do all
(10:03):
kinds of things that they wouldn't let normal people get
away with because they consider themselves superior. Do you think
white privilege is a toxic term. Yeah? I think if
you if you try to discuss it with a white
privileged person, they're going to immediately be on the defensive.
Maybe I sound like I'm not, but I think I
(10:23):
will try to defend it. You know, I'll say, well,
I was aware of it, so it's really not as
bad as someone else who is completely oblivious and just
expected everything. Okay, I'm saying this in a loving way.
You are the portrait to me. You are the portrait
of white privilege. Do you feel bad about it? No?
I think I feel that it is unfair, and I
(10:46):
feel an obligation to try to help those who have
not grown up with white privilege, But I think, are
you prepared to give something up? Yeah? I think so.
But what I was gonna say is I still feel
like I had to work hard, So it wasn't like
I was lazy and privilege and it just fell into
my lap. You know. There's a lot of hard work
and sacrifice that goes into getting where I am, and
(11:09):
I think so many people feel that way, and that's
a way to sort of rationalize that privilege and say, well,
I worked hard for this. But on the flip side,
there's a lot of people who don't have white privilege
who are working really, really hard and still can't get anywhere.
Do you think it's worse now than ever in terms
of people that are not privileged to pursue the American dream.
I don't think it's worse now. I mean, you're the
(11:30):
board share of a charter school in East New York,
So you see right here sort of the other side
of the coin. Mhm. And I see that those kids
who attend that school do have opportunities, do get to
attend elite universities, do get an education that they wouldn't
be getting if they were in a traditional public school.
And so I definitely feel very strongly about education is
(11:53):
the key to opening up opportunities to people, and I
think it's a shame that the education system in the
US is in such bad shape. It really has not
improved in a very long time for all sorts of
various reasons. But I think it is keeping the underprivileged down,
and if we can open it up and give them
better educational opportunities, I think that's a way out of
(12:14):
the cycle of poverty. We're going to be right back
after a quick break, Welcome back to modern rules. My
next guest Russima to Johnny. She's a personal hero of mine.
She's a woman who truly lives the American dream, a
lawyer who, like me, spent her early career on Wall Street.
(12:37):
She has since run for Congress and founded the technology
organization Girls Who Code. If you were running for office today,
people would come out of the gate and say, Russima,
you once worked at a hedge far Oh my god.
When I was running for office, this came up twice
for me. Right, Oh, you worked on Wall Street. You
worked on Wall Street? And I was like, listen, I
had threellars and student loan debt. I was helping my
(12:59):
parents pay for their mortgage. Oftentimes it's the most privileged
liberals who are making that charge at us in the
first place, who didn't have to go work anywhere because
mommy and daddy were paying for college and their apartment
and their rent and all of that. And so we
don't have enough conversations about what's happening with privilege in
my own political party. Okay, so to that exact point,
(13:23):
my own family, who voted for the president, has said
to me, Stefan, you're a luxury voter. We're not. And
lots of people vote based on the fact they need
to be able to get by if they run a
small business. They don't want to be hit with regulation,
they don't want their taxes to go up. And issues
that matter to me, you know, that are hot button issues.
(13:44):
Is it easy for people of privilege to care about
those things because they don't directly impact them. I spend
most of my days that girls of Code, quite frankly,
converting white and Asian men to give up their privilege
to let the rest of us into technology. And I
go there, I am Nothing makes me more excited than
speaking to a room of a thousand white men and
going real deep about feminism and like women in technology.
(14:07):
Because I can see the snickering, I can see the
laughing in the beginning, but towards the end, I see
a shift and and they're thinking in their consciousness. And
I'm happy I took the effort to have that conversation
with them, even though I knew when I walked in
the room we didn't agree. How are you getting to
that shift, though, because every night of the week, if
(14:28):
you turn on conservative media, they will tell you there's
a war on white men in this country, and they
will tell you everyone from the left running for office
is an immigrant, lesbian, one legged, anti military, and you
have millions of people who watched that every night. So
how do you get that room of white men and
(14:50):
Asian men who might be saying in the back of
their heads, my seventeen year old son is never going
to get into college because suddenly we only want diversity candidates.
How do you convince those people that giving up a
bit of their privilege will make the world better. I mean,
I think the first thing is you have to have
a conversation about privilege and about power, right, and let's
(15:10):
be honest about it. When I walk into room and
we talked about girls. We are taking power away from
white men and Asian men, and we often don't have
that conversation in the workplace. So then what happens is
like in the interview process, all of a sudden, women
and people of color are not qualified and they don't
get hired because we really didn't go to the root
of what the problem was and the root of what
(15:31):
we're asking people to do. We're asking you to step aside.
A part of your opportunity to let someone else in,
and part of your reason why you're there is your
unearned privilege. Then can't you understand why there are people
who want to protect their white Of course I do, right.
The thing that's most important to me, even more important
than country, is family. And do I think that I
(15:53):
want to protect my son's over anything? I do. I
think we say, I understand why you feel that way,
but to me, it's the longer view, right, And in
many ways I'm the think of like on my book
to Are Brave not Perfect, And I part of what
I say to women's we always put other people before ourselves.
So they're putting their husband's self interest before their own
self daughters. But what if they have daughters, right, they're basically,
(16:18):
quite frankly, screwing their daughters right over what what they
feel is like in the white male kind of patriarchal interest.
And we always do that, and that scene is being feminine,
and that conversation quite frankly needs to shift. But I
think that most women are making that choice not because
they deeply want to make it, not because they believe it,
because that's what they think is right and what they've
(16:40):
been told. You know, white privileges. Obviously, it's a nasty term.
No one wants to admit that they have it. No
one wants to admit I have South Asian women privilege.
For sure, people think, oh, Rashman, you're Indian, you went
to Harvard, you know you're smart, You're safe. I can
trust you. How do you know that? Or they attribute
(17:02):
you got into those great schools in part what they
wanted a South Asian woman, or there's a quota for
too many Asians and so you really must be smart
if you got it. I acknowledge that every day that
I have I have privileged. I have privileged because of
my race, because of my gender, uh in that sense,
or actually more because of my ethnicity. I would say
that my gender, and every day I think about that,
(17:23):
and I hopefully run my organization a way that acknowledges that,
and I do step aside. It's hard for people to
say that they have white privilege because they feel guilty
about it, but separately because they also say, I'm struggling
in my life, freshman, I don't feel privileged. I can't
pay my bills. So do we need to take away
the stigma? You need to acknowledge that you have it
(17:45):
if you're going to solve for it, and right now,
nobody wants to acknowledge that they have it. I generally
think that shame is not a good thing, you know.
I generally think that like to not talk about something
because I don't want you to feel ashamed or bad
is not a good thing. I think full transparency, openness,
authenticity about the conversation is the best way to go.
(18:08):
Just hold on a second, because we have so much
more to get into. We'll be back right after a
quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. My next guest
is an extraordinary man, army veteran, social entrepreneur, Rhodes scholar
and current CEO of Robin Hood, a foundation fighting poverty
(18:30):
right here in New York City Westmore. You know, it's
quite a lot about privilege. He works alongside some of
the richest people in Manhattan to improve the lives of
some of the poorest. He was once one of the
poorest right here in New York, so I knew I
had to bring him into this conversation. Wells, you now
(18:51):
work with some of the wealthiest people on the planet. Truly,
uh with the work you do with Robin Hood. In
the last couple of years, more and more people have
said philanthropy isn't a good thing. It's the way that
people who have rigged the system are now paying away
their guilt, paying for their privilege. They don't have to
(19:12):
acknowledge it. What do you say to that. I'm actually
an agreement on the idea that philanthropy should be tested
and pushed to do more, the idea that philanthropy will
not be enough, that the giving will not be enough,
that philanthropy must be used and leveraged and pushed to
be able to actually address the structural challenges that exist.
Because the reason we have so much an equity, the
reason we have so much disparity in our society is
(19:34):
not because philanthropy hasn't done its job. It's because we
have policies that are actually making that real. We have
policies that are both putting people and keeping people in poverty.
Do I think we need to have a very real
conversation about the way we think about wealth and wealth
distribution and why currently right now that the average black
family in this country has one tenth of the wealth
(19:55):
of the average white family. Yes, we do. And so
how do we think about this idea looking at sacrifice
as not something that has to be a well, I
must lose in order for this person to gain. But
it's simply saying if I can create space and opportunity
for other people to be able to gain, to be
at the table, I actually can gain. Two is that
(20:17):
what you want people of privilege, is that what you
want white people to understand, bring another seat to the table.
You don't have to give yours up. Yes, I want
people to understand that we don't live in a society
where it's zero sum. That we don't live in a
society where in order for this person to gain it
means I must lose. It means that we have to
(20:38):
use our privilege. We have to use our voice to
be able to say we don't have to subscribe to
these old ways, in these old ways of thinking about
how the world apportions opportunity. We don't have to be
miserly or arbitrary when it comes to the way we
think about who actually gets a seat at the table
and who actually gets a chance to grow and to thrive.
(20:58):
Get a bigger table, Get a bigger table, and use
your privilege to get a bigger table. Use your privilege
to make sure that there are more people who are
there and involved. You know. But it's not about let
me give up my seat, but it's about why are
there's so few seats at this table in the first place.
Who's pushing that narrative that in order for you to
get an opportunity, I'm going to have to give my
seat up. Because that narrative is getting louder and louder.
(21:20):
I think it's fearmongering. It's telling people to be scared
of something and then telling people who's to blame for it.
It's telling the coal miner in West Virginia, the reason
for your pain is the person coming from Mexico. Right.
It's telling you know, the mother who feels like, you know, well,
my son can't get into a good school, and the
reason is because of that African American kid who the
(21:41):
school is now giving an unfair advantage to right. And
none of the stuff is backed up by science. None
of the stuff is backed up by data. It's fearmongering
and it's dangerous because they know it motivates people. People
are motivated by fear. They're motivated by what's scares them.
They're motivated by what they don't know. And so the
only way that we can combat that is if you
(22:02):
increase that level of both proximity and humanity. It's difficult
to be scared of something that you actually know. It's
difficult to to to have a prejudice against something about
something that you actually have an understanding of. It takes
away the whole definition of prejudice, of prejudging. I can't
prejudge something that I actually understand. Well, if I had
to describe there's a lot of ways I would describe you,
(22:23):
but one of them would be you are very realistic.
And while I think you might be fundamentally idealistic, you
don't bring your idealism to the table. You are a
very realistic man. So when purists would say, don't you
ever accept money for New York City's poorest people from
(22:44):
somebody who made their money on Wall Street or who
made their money in the subprime crisis which made people
lose their homes. Don't you give those people a pass
for the privilege they have or the money they've made
on people's backs by taking their money to help the poor.
What you say to those people? Well, first thing I
said to people is I don't give anybody at pass.
I'm not built that way. Um. But the second thing
(23:07):
that I would say is I ask you to walk
with me for a day. And what would I say?
Walk with me through the communities that I walked through
every day. Walk with me into the schools that are
telling our kids everything. And our kids need to know
about who they are and how our world sees them
without ever having to say a word to them. We
(23:27):
send messages to our families and to our children every day.
By the air we asked them to breathe, by the
water we asked them to drink, by the schools we
asked them to go to, by the jobs we asked
them to take, and by the pay we then pay
them and then turn around and tell me that you
know what, West, you shouldn't care about any of that
because this money is this or this money is that.
And I'll say, listen, I'm fighting this war with every
(23:49):
weapon I've got. Then take me inside that school. I
think about some of the kids that we have been
spending a lot of time with in Baltimore recently, and
there's a phenomenon the ball Tomore is dealing with right
now called squeegee kids. These are kids who win cars,
are at red lights, they walk up with bottles of
windecks and squeegees and they spray windows and ask people
(24:12):
for change, like in New York in the eighties, exactly
how how New York dealt with And people are saying,
I can't believe Baltimore still dealing with it, and it's
it's caused a real level of debate within Baltimore where
people are saying, you know, you've got to get these
kids off the corners, and they're inconvincing us, and they're
aggressive and they're begging for money and so on and
so forth. The thing I want to remind people about
(24:34):
the young men and young women who are doing this
is this these are kids who are choosing not to
be cornerboys. They're the ones who were out and selling
dope and you know, selling drugs on corners, because that
would be a much easier profession for them to take
in the city. Like they're choosing not to be trigger polars,
they're choosing to go up to your car and stand
(24:56):
in nine degree weather and ask you if they can
wash your windows for change age, because it's all they've got.
Many of them are homeless. Many of them are the
main breadwinners of their family. Simply based on a hundred
and fifty dollars, maybe they'll make doing that. These are
kids who the trauma of poverty sits on them every
single day in such an unfair way. They didn't choose
(25:17):
this life. They didn't choose to be born into poverty.
They didn't choose to have opportunities that were nowhere near available.
They're just trying to figure out a way. Until they
can figure out a way, The thing that I would
ask people to do is before we are so quick
to cast judgment, let's better understand the journey and how
(25:38):
people got there, the reality of what our kids are facing.
And I say poverty not as an urban phenomenon, but
it is a rural phenomenon. It is a suburban phenomenon.
This reality of poverty and neglect that we're asking children
and family to go through is unbelievably real, and so
(25:59):
be or we just simply castigate or talk about who
was receiving undeserved, privileged, underserved opportunities. I would just ask
people to take a moment and remember the humanity and
remember the privilege that we all have, the privilege that
we have to even make a statement like that with
a straight face. Do you think there are some members
(26:21):
of society, of American culture that are so privileged that
we're ignoring parts of our society that are suffering and
where I want to go to here. Only in the
last couple of years have we heard this pushback about
this idea of being a global citizen. And in the
last couple of years, more and more people have said
(26:43):
global citizenship doesn't matter. What's important is to be a
good American citizen. And that's like kind of gotten political
in this America first thing. And this gets to this
not in my backyard idea. So when some of us
who are in this elite class and we think we
care so much for others. Are we missing the point?
(27:04):
Are there people right here in our backyard suffering, who
are being neglected and somehow we're so privileged we can't
see beyond our our front door. Yeah, there are people
all around us who are suffering and challenged and going
through very real obstacles just to try to make away.
I will never get to the point that I'm going
(27:25):
to allow my nationality get in the way of my humanity.
These are people, these are human beings, these are children,
And so we have to be able to protect and
take care of the things that we see right around us.
And we trust me, we have plenty of issues that
we still have to be much clear and much more
assertive in the way that we think about the things
(27:47):
that are happening right here in the US, right here
in our cities and our rural areas and our suburban areas.
But I Am never going to let that get in
the way of understanding that just to turn your eye,
turn your eye against another human being simply because they
weren't born in the United States, what does that make us?
Not only that it completely contradicts the whole concept of
(28:08):
the birthplace of this country, and what this country was
supposed to stand for. What this country was supposed to mean,
that it was a place that says give us your week,
give us you're tired. It didn't say show me your
w nine. It didn't say tell me about your family
lineage first. And so I categorically reject this idea that
(28:32):
somehow taking care of people somehow means it's neglecting the
ones who are closest to you. The poverty in this
country is a choice. We've made this choice because I
think as a country, we strive when this concept of excellence,
We strive when this concept of winning without understanding that
(28:55):
there are consequences to everything that we do. We have
this idea, and we have this belief and when you
look at the history of this country that the history
of this country is that we have amassed an extraordinary
amount of wealth and power and then remarkably short period
(29:16):
of time and context of world history, we also have
to be honest as a country about how we've amassed it,
and the fact that we've created a lot of losers
in the process, people who were not acknowledged, people who
we have used in that process and not given any
(29:36):
real sense of opportunity or platform without simply looking at
it as a pittance, where when we look to support
those who are the most vulnerable, we call it a program,
even though when you look at so many of the
systems that we have in place that have benefited the
most privileged, we call it a system. That's the way
(30:01):
this country has a portioned opportunity. Oftentimes. The thing that
we want to be and I insists that we are
as a nation thoughtful love is the fact that we
don't have a fair playing field right now. We don't.
And what breaks my heart about that is that it
(30:25):
doesn't have to be that way if you look at
it on a proportional level. Are they gonna be certain
people that might benefit more because they're coming from such
a massive deficit. Yes, And I'm fine with that. We
have enough wealth and resources and creativity here that you
can have a system where we can actually fundamentally address
things like dire chronic poverty, generational poverty. We can address this.
(30:49):
We can do this, and we can do it in
a way that people who have opportunities and privileged right
now won't feel nor need to feel threatened. Are you optimistic? Very? Why?
I'm optimistic because I spend time with people every day
who motivate me. I spend time with people every day
who all the other political talk in this not They're
(31:12):
not bothered nor moved by. They get up with a
fundamental mission to take care of their family and take
are their neighborhoods. And that's exactly what they do. So
right there. Do you think we've seen a rise in
hate crimes in the last few years. We hear more
about these rants and these incidents, But do you think
that a huge portion of our population or growing portion,
(31:35):
is rooted in hate or is it about hopelessness? Because
if it's hopelessness, we could change that. Yeah. I think
it's rooted in fear. And I think the fear is
what is in driving all of this. It's a fear
that I am somehow losing something. It's a fear that
somehow I will be on the short end of whatever
(31:57):
type of progress and momentum is seen. And so fear
will drive people to do a lot of things. So
what's the counter to it? Love? I think the counter
to it is love, and I think the counter to
it also is opportunity. If you show people that there's
a real opportunity, if you show people that you don't
have to there is something worth sacrificing for. I think
(32:19):
that actually counters the fear argument. So is your message
help us create opportunity equality? Because the way you're framing
it to me, I hear Goldman Sacks, don't take away
any jobs from anybody who's qualified. Add ten more you
(32:40):
can afford to Harvard, you've got an unlimited endowment. Build
another building at another hundred kids. Is that your answer?
And also, how are we thinking about the portioning of
opportunity in a fair way? Right, So it's not just
about asking ex corporation to at him or or asking
Harvard to add another building. It's about having the conversation
(33:04):
with Harvard and saying, what's your responsibility to the HBCUs
and to the community colleges. You know what's your responsibility.
It means that we have institutions that have historically been
chronic winners in our society, and they've also educated such
a small portion of our society. So, for example, when
(33:24):
you think about the best schools in the country, and
I know investment banking the best, I'll say it that way.
Investment banks have relationships with five schools, right, five of
the top top schools and everybody else the resume ends
up in the non target school pile. I know it.
I used to run non target school recruiting. Right, that's
a waste land. And maybe somebody wins a lottery ticket
(33:47):
and they get pulled out. Are you saying to me, Harvard,
Duke Penn and those companies need to say, hold back
a second, Harvard, what are you doing to help the
career services department at a historically black college because they
don't have the history, or the infrastructure or the relationships
with companies to give any of those kids opportunities. So
(34:07):
what are what you talking about is saying the most
privileged institutions, whether they're companies or schools, they need to
check that privilege and saying how do I pay this forward?
And if that's what you're doing, the summer internship is
your gateway to get a full time job. So if
you can't get on that program, you're about to sit
there in debt with no job opportunity. If I have
(34:29):
extra hours, I don't have an opportunity to go get
an internship. I need to go get more hours at
the wind Dixie or I need to go get more
hours at the Walmart, or I need to go get
a second job at Papa John's. That's but then to
that point right there west, all of these great companies
and these internship opportunities, those internships don't pay any money,
or they pay such a little amount of money that
(34:52):
that kids who need to support themselves can't ever get
those jobs. Is that what we need to address? Yes,
And I think so we have to think more creative
about the way we are truly supporting the future of
this country than just simply saying, well, I'm going to
add an internship program here, or I'm going to recruit
from this new school in a different way there. I
think these large organizations, these large corporations, uh, these large
(35:14):
institutions of higher education, they have an obligation not just
to build up their own personal endowments, they have an
obligation to be able to say, what am I doing
to support the other institutions inside of my area, inside
of my jurisdiction, to make sure that they can fundamentally
support and serve the other students who might not make
it into my university, but I know who are just
as important to the future of my community as the
(35:35):
kids who are walking onto my right there. What you're
talking about is not philanthropy or charity. That is making
a strategic move to make your community, your city, your
company a stronger, better, smarter place. We need to move
from charity to justice. Ah, good answer, that's what this is.
I don't believe in charity. I believe in justice, and
(35:58):
so I think that the way we have to view
all of this work is you know, we can have
a philanthropic wing, a philanthropic angle to our work, but
I don't see robin Hood as a charity, as a
public charity. Robin Hood is a social justice organization. What
it is is understanding the situation that exists right now
has historical context and historical underpinnings. You know, we don't
(36:21):
have the levels of disparity that we have in our
country right now by accident. This is a deliberate frame
that has been hardened over years, and so this is
not about taking a blame. I don't believe in the
idea of taking a blame because I think that doesn't
actually get us anywhere. What I do believe is we
have to address the current existence, and that has to
(36:41):
be done with a historical context because we are not
where we are simply because we just fell into it.
We are where we are because there have been historical laws,
historical policies that have helped to get us here. Do
you take a city like my owntown of Baltimore. You
can't understand the structural deficits and the inequity that exists
(37:01):
within Baltimore without understanding the history of redlining, without understanding
the history of blockbusting, without understanding the history of predatory lending,
without understanding the history of banks deciding who they will
and won't lend to, which entrepreneurs are and are not
worth the investment. Before I joined Robin Hood, I was
critical of philanthropy and and and I still am in
(37:24):
the historical sense of what philanthropy is or what philanthropy
has always been interpreted as. Right, this idea of yes,
I can write a check and somehow that's going to
be enough. The thing and why I'm so proud to
lead this organization now is this is an organization that understands, yes,
that's not going to be enough. We have to address structure.
(37:48):
We have to address the fact that you know you
can put you all the money into affordable housing or
whatever that you want. But the reality is this, if
we don't also reinforce and fight and advocate for a
right to counsel, because one of the fastest growing reasons
and one of the largest reason why people end up
homeless is because they are in homes and they are
being evicted because you have landlords who have an incentive
(38:10):
to be able to kick them out because then you
can raise your rent up to market value rates. So
we have to be able to establish that people have
a fundamental right to counsel because we have to do
everything that we can do from keeping people from getting
evicted from their homes. If we don't understand that a
person is coming back from prison and a person who
has paid their debt when they come back home, we
(38:32):
can say, yes, you know, we wish you the best
to luck. But by the way, you can't live in
public housing, you know, even if your family is there.
Or you can apply to colleges, but remember you can't
get pell grants. And so we continue to have asterix
next to people's names. So the reality is that every
sentence ends up becoming a life sentence. That's not something
that philanthropy can fix. Philanthropy's job public charity's job, Robin
(38:53):
Hood's job is to not just use our capital to
be able to address a very human pain that exists
right now, but is to use our capital to make
sure we don't have to have people that have to
have human pain in the first place. So here's what
I've heard. Privilege exists, but a lot of people struggle
to recognize or acknowledge it in themselves. It makes us
(39:13):
very defensive. And here's the thing. If you want to
address inequality, it is not about giving something up. It's
about democratizing opportunity. If we've got privilege and we say
we care about equality, this idea that we may have
to give something up to give someone else a chance.
(39:34):
It's not about giving your seat up at the table
for someone else. It's saying, let's buy a bigger table,
let's make more room. Privilege comes in many shapes and sizes.
I started my career in the old boys network of
Wall Street, and although I lacked the obvious privilege of
guys like my husband, I realize, yes, he may have
(39:56):
had a leg up, but I was still in the room.
It's about saying, let me acknowledge what I have, let
me understand someone else's position, and let me say, is
there a way more of us can rise together? And
at least acknowledging it is the first step toward figuring
out my own privilege. So what am I gonna do?
(40:17):
I'm gonna keep having conversations just like this. This has
been our conversation on privilege. Thanks for listening, bringing an
open mind, and helping me create the Modern Rules. I
want more of this conversation. Go deeper and read this
week's Modern Rules feature only on NBC news dot Com
Slash Better. Yeah, that's it for today's episode. I'm your host,
(40:49):
Stephanie Rule. A very, very special thanks to the extraordinary
people who made this happen. My producers Julie Brown, Samantha
Eullen and An Bark Audio, Michael Byett for book king
and wrangling, the amazing guests who joined us, Julian Weller
for editing and bill plaques, Michael Azar and Jacobo Penzo
for their recording expertise. Special thanks to Steve lick Tag,
(41:11):
Barbara Rab, Jonathan Wald, Marie Dugo, Holly traz Nikki Etre
and Christina Everett are Executive producers are Conald Byrne and
Mangesh Hatiga Door, and of course the men who brought
us all together, Chairman and CEO of I Heart Media
Bob Pittman and Chairman of NBC News Andy Left. For
more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart
(41:31):
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows,
You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and
I Heart Radio. Power Corrupts. You see it all over
the place. When people get to the top, they say
the rules don't apply to me. I'm better than everybody else.
I mean, I think the first thing is you have
to have a conversation about privilege and about power right
and would be honest about it. We are taking power
(00:20):
away from white men. I want people to understand that
we don't live in a society where zero sum, That
we don't live in a society where in order for
this person to gain it means I must lose. We
have to use our voice to be able to say
we don't have to subscribe to these old ways, in
these old ways of thinking about how the world apportions opportunity.
(00:47):
I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent, and
this is Modern Rules. In this season of Modern Rules,
I'm going to be spending time unpacking the harriest conversations
(01:08):
from privilege to political correctness, to try and figure out
how we can navigate this changing world and break through
to actually talk with and learn from the people who
disagree with us, and maybe just maybe learn something along
the way. It's easy for me, as somebody who lives
in a brownstone on the Upper East Side, as somebody
(01:30):
whose kids all go to fancy New York City private schools,
I can advocate for social issues because they're far far
away from me. They don't really impact my daily life.
And if they did impact my life, if my kids
or my family was hurt in any way by this,
what I care so much about these issues Today on
(01:51):
Modern Rules, we're talking privilege, and I'm gonna be speaking
to a few people who know quite a bit about
how privilege impacts us, both personally and professionally. One of
the trickiest parts about discussing privilege is actually acknowledging your own.
In this episode, I'm going to dig deep with politician
and Girls Who Code founder Rushmasa, Johnny Army, veteran author,
(02:13):
social activist and CEO of Robin Hood Westmore, and somebody
very near and dear to me, my own husband, Andy Hubbard.
The conversation about privilege is one that is very very
close to me in my mind, I don't think I
grew up with a lot of privilege. Now, a lot
of others would say, you absolutely did You're a white
(02:33):
girl from the Northeast who went to a really good
school and then you went on to work on Wall
Street and now you have a TV show. So yes,
that sure sounds privileged. But I married somebody who's the
definition of it. I mentioned it before. I want to
bring him into the conversation in a real way and
gives sort of this textbook example of the guy who
(02:54):
goes to a prep school, who plays a prep school sport,
who then goes on to an Ivy League college and
then Wall Street has come on over. My dearest person,
my number one my husband, Andy Hubbard. Andy Hubbard, my
number one man. Obviously you're my husband. That's why I
invite you here today to join me. I'm not knocking
(03:15):
how smart or talented you are, but your path seemed
really natural, right. You went to a super elite high school,
you went to a super elite college, and then you
went and worked on Wall Street and you and I
met because we were in the same training program at
Credit Swiss. I went to a public school in New Jersey.
I went to Lehigh. I decided I wanted to work
(03:37):
in banking. I wrote endless letters to Lehi alumni and
you and I both showed up in New York City
on the first day of Credit swisses training program, and
when we did, I didn't know a single person. I
didn't even know what anyone did there for a living.
And you had an awesome network as soon as you
got there, trading floors filled with loads of guys who
look and sound like you, who all played college lacrosse,
(03:58):
who were Hey, Andy, come sit with Amy, let me
teach you. I'll be your mentor come join my desk.
Did you realize at the time how much privilege you
had in a way? I know. It's definitely the lacrosse
connection that got me the intro to Wall Street. The
class ahead of me at Princeton. I think something like
ten of the eleven lacrosse players went to work on
Wall Street after they graduated, and there were many of
(04:21):
them saying, Andy, you should do this. It's gonna be
really great. You're you're smart, you can figure out these derivatives.
You can make it a lot of money and we'll
have a lot of fun. It'll be great. You should
really do it. And so a friend of mine made
the introduction. He said, you know, someone at Credit Swiss
is looking for a derivative salesperson, you should really give
this a shot. So I did, and so I definitely
knew that it was it was luck in those connections
that brought me there, and you know, when I got there,
(04:43):
it was it was certainly some lacrosse layers, but a
lot of it was just other Princeton alumni that I
met at the bank who would help me. And so
it's incredibly powerful. I mean, I think that's a major
reason why some people try to get to these elite schools.
I don't think a lot of people go to Harvard
Business will for what they learn. They go for the connections,
they go for the network, They go for the job
(05:05):
opportunities that it gives them because of where they are,
not because of what they know. Then, are strong networks
a good thing or a bad thing, because obviously they've
served you, But you had access to all of these
networks and lots of other people didn't even know that
these opportunities existed, and because of that, it only further
(05:26):
advances privilege. Right, that's a tough question. I think they
are a reality, and they're certainly not fair. Privilege does
tend to perpetuate itself. The privilege are gonna do everything
possible to maintain that privilege. Maybe not everything possible. They
often want to make the appearance of trying to level
(05:47):
the blankfield, but they're going to try to do that
without actually jeopardizing their own privilege. But I think it
is a reality, and I think we do have an
obligation to try to make society as fair as possible.
But I think it's never going to be completely fair.
But in order to make society more fair, that requires
giving up privilege, right. I think it's simple. It's good
(06:09):
for society, it's bad for the people to enjoy the privilege.
I think that that's when you get a lot of
pain in the world. When people had something and is
taken away from them. I think that feels a lot
worse than in many cases, that feels a lot worse
than never having it at all. I think that's when
people get angry and and fight for it. I say,
you know, I'm used to having this, therefore I deserve it,
(06:31):
and you're trying to take it away from me. And
I think that's people fight for those sort of things.
If you never really tasted it in the first place,
it's kind of like easy come, easy go. So I think,
do you really think it's easy, come, easy go? Do
you really think all the women who don't get top
opportunities and investment banks, or minority candidates who don't get
(06:51):
to meet the top law firms and then get on
the partner track, do you really think they're saying, easy, come,
easy go up? Just let the white guys have it.
You know, who cares that I never got to do it? No,
definitely not. That's not what I mean. But if you
never You're right, I'm taking a much smaller view. But
if you never experienced something and you had it once
and then you never had it again, you don't really
(07:11):
come to expect it. But if you had it, you
know every day of your life and that's taken away,
it feels different. Talk about this a little bit. Where
I came from this sort of pedigree of good schools
and you came from a public school and you didn't
have sports kind of leading you into your Wall Street creer.
Are you knocking my high school cheerleading career? True? Did
(07:31):
that was that a pipeline to also? So it was
a pipeline to awesome? So what it was was a
pipeline for Street skills, and hustle, So you know, it
wasn't easy for you. It's easy for a lot of
you know, Princeton grads to get an interview at Wall Street.
Not so easy if you're not part of these select schools.
And so you had to figure out other ways to
(07:53):
get ahead, and you figured out hustle, grit, tenacity, which
I feel hearth that some privileged kids don't have. So
I think I saw plenty of this at Princeton from
kids who went to the top schools just felt they
deserved everything just to be handed to them. It just
kind of fell into their lap, and so they didn't
have that hustle. You mean all the young guys who
(08:15):
when you and I were both in investment banking and
i'd be doing recruiting, I would interview and they'd be
like sweet because they knew I was married to you,
and they were college lacrosse players, and they thought it
would be a totally easy, awesome, hooked up interview until
I would tear up their resumes, swallowed them, and then
kick them out of the room because I couldn't because
I was choking on their privilege. Do you mean those guys, yes,
(08:37):
And and By the way, I think some of those
kids felt it the same when they interviewed with me
and said, oh, I played across, this is gonna be easy.
So I would say it got a lot of people
in the door, but it wouldn't get them a job.
If you weren't qualified, just being a lacrosse player didn't
get you the job. There was one kid that interviewed
who absolutely bombed the interview and so sorry. I mean,
(08:57):
you know, I like your sport and everything, but not
going to cut it. Why do you think some privileged people,
by nature of being privileged, become awful And here's what
I mean. Think about high school. The prettiest, most popular
girls become the most twisted, elite, mean girls guys who
are the best athletes, right, but think about all the
(09:19):
stories of horrible, awful, misogynistic, abusive, hazing behaviors that whether
they happen at the best fraternities or on the best
sports teams or by the coolest girls in theory, wouldn't
you think that the luckiest people would be the most
generous and instead you've seen the opposite practices. Yeah, I
(09:40):
don't think it's unusual at all. I think why why
does it exist. Power corrupts. You see it all over
the place. When people get to the top, they say
the rules don't apply to me. I'm better than everybody else,
and that's proven by where I am right now. So
clearly the rules that apply to everybody else don't apply
to me. I can break them. I can be a jerk,
I can cheat on my taxes. I can do all
(10:03):
kinds of things that they wouldn't let normal people get
away with because they consider themselves superior. Do you think
white privilege is a toxic term. Yeah? I think if
you if you try to discuss it with a white
privileged person, they're going to immediately be on the defensive.
Maybe I sound like I'm not, but I think I
(10:23):
will try to defend it. You know, I'll say, well,
I was aware of it, so it's really not as
bad as someone else who is completely oblivious and just
expected everything. Okay, I'm saying this in a loving way.
You are the portrait to me. You are the portrait
of white privilege. Do you feel bad about it? No?
I think I feel that it is unfair, and I
(10:46):
feel an obligation to try to help those who have
not grown up with white privilege, But I think, are
you prepared to give something up? Yeah? I think so.
But what I was gonna say is I still feel
like I had to work hard, So it wasn't like
I was lazy and privilege and it just fell into
my lap. You know. There's a lot of hard work
and sacrifice that goes into getting where I am, and
(11:09):
I think so many people feel that way, and that's
a way to sort of rationalize that privilege and say, well,
I worked hard for this. But on the flip side,
there's a lot of people who don't have white privilege
who are working really, really hard and still can't get anywhere.
Do you think it's worse now than ever in terms
of people that are not privileged to pursue the American dream.
I don't think it's worse now. I mean, you're the
(11:30):
board share of a charter school in East New York,
So you see right here sort of the other side
of the coin. Mhm. And I see that those kids
who attend that school do have opportunities, do get to
attend elite universities, do get an education that they wouldn't
be getting if they were in a traditional public school.
And so I definitely feel very strongly about education is
(11:53):
the key to opening up opportunities to people, and I
think it's a shame that the education system in the
US is in such bad shape. It really has not
improved in a very long time for all sorts of
various reasons. But I think it is keeping the underprivileged down,
and if we can open it up and give them
better educational opportunities, I think that's a way out of
(12:14):
the cycle of poverty. We're going to be right back
after a quick break, Welcome back to modern rules. My
next guest Russima to Johnny. She's a personal hero of mine.
She's a woman who truly lives the American dream, a
lawyer who, like me, spent her early career on Wall Street.
(12:37):
She has since run for Congress and founded the technology
organization Girls Who Code. If you were running for office today,
people would come out of the gate and say, Russima,
you once worked at a hedge far Oh my god.
When I was running for office, this came up twice
for me. Right, Oh, you worked on Wall Street. You
worked on Wall Street? And I was like, listen, I
had threellars and student loan debt. I was helping my
(12:59):
parents pay for their mortgage. Oftentimes it's the most privileged
liberals who are making that charge at us in the
first place, who didn't have to go work anywhere because
mommy and daddy were paying for college and their apartment
and their rent and all of that. And so we
don't have enough conversations about what's happening with privilege in
my own political party. Okay, so to that exact point,
(13:23):
my own family, who voted for the president, has said
to me, Stefan, you're a luxury voter. We're not. And
lots of people vote based on the fact they need
to be able to get by if they run a
small business. They don't want to be hit with regulation,
they don't want their taxes to go up. And issues
that matter to me, you know, that are hot button issues.
(13:44):
Is it easy for people of privilege to care about
those things because they don't directly impact them. I spend
most of my days that girls of Code, quite frankly,
converting white and Asian men to give up their privilege
to let the rest of us into technology. And I
go there, I am Nothing makes me more excited than
speaking to a room of a thousand white men and
going real deep about feminism and like women in technology.
(14:07):
Because I can see the snickering, I can see the
laughing in the beginning, but towards the end, I see
a shift and and they're thinking in their consciousness. And
I'm happy I took the effort to have that conversation
with them, even though I knew when I walked in
the room we didn't agree. How are you getting to
that shift, though, because every night of the week, if
(14:28):
you turn on conservative media, they will tell you there's
a war on white men in this country, and they
will tell you everyone from the left running for office
is an immigrant, lesbian, one legged, anti military, and you
have millions of people who watched that every night. So
how do you get that room of white men and
(14:50):
Asian men who might be saying in the back of
their heads, my seventeen year old son is never going
to get into college because suddenly we only want diversity candidates.
How do you convince those people that giving up a
bit of their privilege will make the world better. I mean,
I think the first thing is you have to have
a conversation about privilege and about power, right, and let's
(15:10):
be honest about it. When I walk into room and
we talked about girls. We are taking power away from
white men and Asian men, and we often don't have
that conversation in the workplace. So then what happens is
like in the interview process, all of a sudden, women
and people of color are not qualified and they don't
get hired because we really didn't go to the root
of what the problem was and the root of what
(15:31):
we're asking people to do. We're asking you to step aside.
A part of your opportunity to let someone else in,
and part of your reason why you're there is your
unearned privilege. Then can't you understand why there are people
who want to protect their white Of course I do, right.
The thing that's most important to me, even more important
than country, is family. And do I think that I
(15:53):
want to protect my son's over anything? I do. I
think we say, I understand why you feel that way,
but to me, it's the longer view, right, And in
many ways I'm the think of like on my book
to Are Brave not Perfect, And I part of what
I say to women's we always put other people before ourselves.
So they're putting their husband's self interest before their own
self daughters. But what if they have daughters, right, they're basically,
(16:18):
quite frankly, screwing their daughters right over what what they
feel is like in the white male kind of patriarchal interest.
And we always do that, and that scene is being feminine,
and that conversation quite frankly needs to shift. But I
think that most women are making that choice not because
they deeply want to make it, not because they believe it,
because that's what they think is right and what they've
(16:40):
been told. You know, white privileges. Obviously, it's a nasty term.
No one wants to admit that they have it. No
one wants to admit I have South Asian women privilege.
For sure, people think, oh, Rashman, you're Indian, you went
to Harvard, you know you're smart, You're safe. I can
trust you. How do you know that? Or they attribute
(17:02):
you got into those great schools in part what they
wanted a South Asian woman, or there's a quota for
too many Asians and so you really must be smart
if you got it. I acknowledge that every day that
I have I have privileged. I have privileged because of
my race, because of my gender, uh in that sense,
or actually more because of my ethnicity. I would say
that my gender, and every day I think about that,
(17:23):
and I hopefully run my organization a way that acknowledges that,
and I do step aside. It's hard for people to
say that they have white privilege because they feel guilty
about it, but separately because they also say, I'm struggling
in my life, freshman, I don't feel privileged. I can't
pay my bills. So do we need to take away
the stigma? You need to acknowledge that you have it
(17:45):
if you're going to solve for it, and right now,
nobody wants to acknowledge that they have it. I generally
think that shame is not a good thing, you know.
I generally think that like to not talk about something
because I don't want you to feel ashamed or bad
is not a good thing. I think full transparency, openness,
authenticity about the conversation is the best way to go.
(18:08):
Just hold on a second, because we have so much
more to get into. We'll be back right after a
quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. My next guest
is an extraordinary man, army veteran, social entrepreneur, Rhodes scholar
and current CEO of Robin Hood, a foundation fighting poverty
(18:30):
right here in New York City Westmore. You know, it's
quite a lot about privilege. He works alongside some of
the richest people in Manhattan to improve the lives of
some of the poorest. He was once one of the
poorest right here in New York, so I knew I
had to bring him into this conversation. Wells, you now
(18:51):
work with some of the wealthiest people on the planet. Truly,
uh with the work you do with Robin Hood. In
the last couple of years, more and more people have
said philanthropy isn't a good thing. It's the way that
people who have rigged the system are now paying away
their guilt, paying for their privilege. They don't have to
(19:12):
acknowledge it. What do you say to that. I'm actually
an agreement on the idea that philanthropy should be tested
and pushed to do more, the idea that philanthropy will
not be enough, that the giving will not be enough,
that philanthropy must be used and leveraged and pushed to
be able to actually address the structural challenges that exist.
Because the reason we have so much an equity, the
reason we have so much disparity in our society is
(19:34):
not because philanthropy hasn't done its job. It's because we
have policies that are actually making that real. We have
policies that are both putting people and keeping people in poverty.
Do I think we need to have a very real
conversation about the way we think about wealth and wealth
distribution and why currently right now that the average black
family in this country has one tenth of the wealth
(19:55):
of the average white family. Yes, we do. And so
how do we think about this idea looking at sacrifice
as not something that has to be a well, I
must lose in order for this person to gain. But
it's simply saying if I can create space and opportunity
for other people to be able to gain, to be
at the table, I actually can gain. Two is that
(20:17):
what you want people of privilege, is that what you
want white people to understand, bring another seat to the table.
You don't have to give yours up. Yes, I want
people to understand that we don't live in a society
where it's zero sum. That we don't live in a
society where in order for this person to gain it
means I must lose. It means that we have to
(20:38):
use our privilege. We have to use our voice to
be able to say we don't have to subscribe to
these old ways, in these old ways of thinking about
how the world apportions opportunity. We don't have to be
miserly or arbitrary when it comes to the way we
think about who actually gets a seat at the table
and who actually gets a chance to grow and to thrive.
(20:58):
Get a bigger table, Get a bigger table, and use
your privilege to get a bigger table. Use your privilege
to make sure that there are more people who are
there and involved. You know. But it's not about let
me give up my seat, but it's about why are
there's so few seats at this table in the first place.
Who's pushing that narrative that in order for you to
get an opportunity, I'm going to have to give my
seat up. Because that narrative is getting louder and louder.
(21:20):
I think it's fearmongering. It's telling people to be scared
of something and then telling people who's to blame for it.
It's telling the coal miner in West Virginia, the reason
for your pain is the person coming from Mexico. Right.
It's telling you know, the mother who feels like, you know, well,
my son can't get into a good school, and the
reason is because of that African American kid who the
(21:41):
school is now giving an unfair advantage to right. And
none of the stuff is backed up by science. None
of the stuff is backed up by data. It's fearmongering
and it's dangerous because they know it motivates people. People
are motivated by fear. They're motivated by what's scares them.
They're motivated by what they don't know. And so the
only way that we can combat that is if you
(22:02):
increase that level of both proximity and humanity. It's difficult
to be scared of something that you actually know. It's
difficult to to to have a prejudice against something about
something that you actually have an understanding of. It takes
away the whole definition of prejudice, of prejudging. I can't
prejudge something that I actually understand. Well, if I had
to describe there's a lot of ways I would describe you,
(22:23):
but one of them would be you are very realistic.
And while I think you might be fundamentally idealistic, you
don't bring your idealism to the table. You are a
very realistic man. So when purists would say, don't you
ever accept money for New York City's poorest people from
(22:44):
somebody who made their money on Wall Street or who
made their money in the subprime crisis which made people
lose their homes. Don't you give those people a pass
for the privilege they have or the money they've made
on people's backs by taking their money to help the poor.
What you say to those people? Well, first thing I
said to people is I don't give anybody at pass.
I'm not built that way. Um. But the second thing
(23:07):
that I would say is I ask you to walk
with me for a day. And what would I say?
Walk with me through the communities that I walked through
every day. Walk with me into the schools that are
telling our kids everything. And our kids need to know
about who they are and how our world sees them
without ever having to say a word to them. We
(23:27):
send messages to our families and to our children every day.
By the air we asked them to breathe, by the
water we asked them to drink, by the schools we
asked them to go to, by the jobs we asked
them to take, and by the pay we then pay
them and then turn around and tell me that you
know what, West, you shouldn't care about any of that
because this money is this or this money is that.
And I'll say, listen, I'm fighting this war with every
(23:49):
weapon I've got. Then take me inside that school. I
think about some of the kids that we have been
spending a lot of time with in Baltimore recently, and
there's a phenomenon the ball Tomore is dealing with right
now called squeegee kids. These are kids who win cars,
are at red lights, they walk up with bottles of
windecks and squeegees and they spray windows and ask people
(24:12):
for change, like in New York in the eighties, exactly
how how New York dealt with And people are saying,
I can't believe Baltimore still dealing with it, and it's
it's caused a real level of debate within Baltimore where
people are saying, you know, you've got to get these
kids off the corners, and they're inconvincing us, and they're
aggressive and they're begging for money and so on and
so forth. The thing I want to remind people about
(24:34):
the young men and young women who are doing this
is this these are kids who are choosing not to
be cornerboys. They're the ones who were out and selling
dope and you know, selling drugs on corners, because that
would be a much easier profession for them to take
in the city. Like they're choosing not to be trigger polars,
they're choosing to go up to your car and stand
(24:56):
in nine degree weather and ask you if they can
wash your windows for change age, because it's all they've got.
Many of them are homeless. Many of them are the
main breadwinners of their family. Simply based on a hundred
and fifty dollars, maybe they'll make doing that. These are
kids who the trauma of poverty sits on them every
single day in such an unfair way. They didn't choose
(25:17):
this life. They didn't choose to be born into poverty.
They didn't choose to have opportunities that were nowhere near available.
They're just trying to figure out a way. Until they
can figure out a way, The thing that I would
ask people to do is before we are so quick
to cast judgment, let's better understand the journey and how
(25:38):
people got there, the reality of what our kids are facing.
And I say poverty not as an urban phenomenon, but
it is a rural phenomenon. It is a suburban phenomenon.
This reality of poverty and neglect that we're asking children
and family to go through is unbelievably real, and so
(25:59):
be or we just simply castigate or talk about who
was receiving undeserved, privileged, underserved opportunities. I would just ask
people to take a moment and remember the humanity and
remember the privilege that we all have, the privilege that
we have to even make a statement like that with
a straight face. Do you think there are some members
(26:21):
of society, of American culture that are so privileged that
we're ignoring parts of our society that are suffering and
where I want to go to here. Only in the
last couple of years have we heard this pushback about
this idea of being a global citizen. And in the
last couple of years, more and more people have said
(26:43):
global citizenship doesn't matter. What's important is to be a
good American citizen. And that's like kind of gotten political
in this America first thing. And this gets to this
not in my backyard idea. So when some of us
who are in this elite class and we think we
care so much for others. Are we missing the point?
(27:04):
Are there people right here in our backyard suffering, who
are being neglected and somehow we're so privileged we can't
see beyond our our front door. Yeah, there are people
all around us who are suffering and challenged and going
through very real obstacles just to try to make away.
I will never get to the point that I'm going
(27:25):
to allow my nationality get in the way of my humanity.
These are people, these are human beings, these are children,
And so we have to be able to protect and
take care of the things that we see right around us.
And we trust me, we have plenty of issues that
we still have to be much clear and much more
assertive in the way that we think about the things
(27:47):
that are happening right here in the US, right here
in our cities and our rural areas and our suburban areas.
But I Am never going to let that get in
the way of understanding that just to turn your eye,
turn your eye against another human being simply because they
weren't born in the United States, what does that make us?
Not only that it completely contradicts the whole concept of
(28:08):
the birthplace of this country, and what this country was
supposed to stand for. What this country was supposed to mean,
that it was a place that says give us your week,
give us you're tired. It didn't say show me your
w nine. It didn't say tell me about your family
lineage first. And so I categorically reject this idea that
(28:32):
somehow taking care of people somehow means it's neglecting the
ones who are closest to you. The poverty in this
country is a choice. We've made this choice because I
think as a country, we strive when this concept of excellence,
We strive when this concept of winning without understanding that
(28:55):
there are consequences to everything that we do. We have
this idea, and we have this belief and when you
look at the history of this country that the history
of this country is that we have amassed an extraordinary
amount of wealth and power and then remarkably short period
(29:16):
of time and context of world history, we also have
to be honest as a country about how we've amassed it,
and the fact that we've created a lot of losers
in the process, people who were not acknowledged, people who
we have used in that process and not given any
(29:36):
real sense of opportunity or platform without simply looking at
it as a pittance, where when we look to support
those who are the most vulnerable, we call it a program,
even though when you look at so many of the
systems that we have in place that have benefited the
most privileged, we call it a system. That's the way
(30:01):
this country has a portioned opportunity. Oftentimes. The thing that
we want to be and I insists that we are
as a nation thoughtful love is the fact that we
don't have a fair playing field right now. We don't.
And what breaks my heart about that is that it
(30:25):
doesn't have to be that way if you look at
it on a proportional level. Are they gonna be certain
people that might benefit more because they're coming from such
a massive deficit. Yes, And I'm fine with that. We
have enough wealth and resources and creativity here that you
can have a system where we can actually fundamentally address
things like dire chronic poverty, generational poverty. We can address this.
(30:49):
We can do this, and we can do it in
a way that people who have opportunities and privileged right
now won't feel nor need to feel threatened. Are you optimistic? Very? Why?
I'm optimistic because I spend time with people every day
who motivate me. I spend time with people every day
who all the other political talk in this not They're
(31:12):
not bothered nor moved by. They get up with a
fundamental mission to take care of their family and take
are their neighborhoods. And that's exactly what they do. So
right there. Do you think we've seen a rise in
hate crimes in the last few years. We hear more
about these rants and these incidents, But do you think
that a huge portion of our population or growing portion,
(31:35):
is rooted in hate or is it about hopelessness? Because
if it's hopelessness, we could change that. Yeah. I think
it's rooted in fear. And I think the fear is
what is in driving all of this. It's a fear
that I am somehow losing something. It's a fear that
somehow I will be on the short end of whatever
(31:57):
type of progress and momentum is seen. And so fear
will drive people to do a lot of things. So
what's the counter to it? Love? I think the counter
to it is love, and I think the counter to
it also is opportunity. If you show people that there's
a real opportunity, if you show people that you don't
have to there is something worth sacrificing for. I think
(32:19):
that actually counters the fear argument. So is your message
help us create opportunity equality? Because the way you're framing
it to me, I hear Goldman Sacks, don't take away
any jobs from anybody who's qualified. Add ten more you
(32:40):
can afford to Harvard, you've got an unlimited endowment. Build
another building at another hundred kids. Is that your answer?
And also, how are we thinking about the portioning of
opportunity in a fair way? Right, So it's not just
about asking ex corporation to at him or or asking
Harvard to add another building. It's about having the conversation
(33:04):
with Harvard and saying, what's your responsibility to the HBCUs
and to the community colleges. You know what's your responsibility.
It means that we have institutions that have historically been
chronic winners in our society, and they've also educated such
a small portion of our society. So, for example, when
(33:24):
you think about the best schools in the country, and
I know investment banking the best, I'll say it that way.
Investment banks have relationships with five schools, right, five of
the top top schools and everybody else the resume ends
up in the non target school pile. I know it.
I used to run non target school recruiting. Right, that's
a waste land. And maybe somebody wins a lottery ticket
(33:47):
and they get pulled out. Are you saying to me, Harvard,
Duke Penn and those companies need to say, hold back
a second, Harvard, what are you doing to help the
career services department at a historically black college because they
don't have the history, or the infrastructure or the relationships
with companies to give any of those kids opportunities. So
(34:07):
what are what you talking about is saying the most
privileged institutions, whether they're companies or schools, they need to
check that privilege and saying how do I pay this forward?
And if that's what you're doing, the summer internship is
your gateway to get a full time job. So if
you can't get on that program, you're about to sit
there in debt with no job opportunity. If I have
(34:29):
extra hours, I don't have an opportunity to go get
an internship. I need to go get more hours at
the wind Dixie or I need to go get more
hours at the Walmart, or I need to go get
a second job at Papa John's. That's but then to
that point right there west, all of these great companies
and these internship opportunities, those internships don't pay any money,
or they pay such a little amount of money that
(34:52):
that kids who need to support themselves can't ever get
those jobs. Is that what we need to address? Yes,
And I think so we have to think more creative
about the way we are truly supporting the future of
this country than just simply saying, well, I'm going to
add an internship program here, or I'm going to recruit
from this new school in a different way there. I
think these large organizations, these large corporations, uh, these large
(35:14):
institutions of higher education, they have an obligation not just
to build up their own personal endowments, they have an
obligation to be able to say, what am I doing
to support the other institutions inside of my area, inside
of my jurisdiction, to make sure that they can fundamentally
support and serve the other students who might not make
it into my university, but I know who are just
as important to the future of my community as the
(35:35):
kids who are walking onto my right there. What you're
talking about is not philanthropy or charity. That is making
a strategic move to make your community, your city, your
company a stronger, better, smarter place. We need to move
from charity to justice. Ah, good answer, that's what this is.
I don't believe in charity. I believe in justice, and
(35:58):
so I think that the way we have to view
all of this work is you know, we can have
a philanthropic wing, a philanthropic angle to our work, but
I don't see robin Hood as a charity, as a
public charity. Robin Hood is a social justice organization. What
it is is understanding the situation that exists right now
has historical context and historical underpinnings. You know, we don't
(36:21):
have the levels of disparity that we have in our
country right now by accident. This is a deliberate frame
that has been hardened over years, and so this is
not about taking a blame. I don't believe in the
idea of taking a blame because I think that doesn't
actually get us anywhere. What I do believe is we
have to address the current existence, and that has to
(36:41):
be done with a historical context because we are not
where we are simply because we just fell into it.
We are where we are because there have been historical laws,
historical policies that have helped to get us here. Do
you take a city like my owntown of Baltimore. You
can't understand the structural deficits and the inequity that exists
(37:01):
within Baltimore without understanding the history of redlining, without understanding
the history of blockbusting, without understanding the history of predatory lending,
without understanding the history of banks deciding who they will
and won't lend to, which entrepreneurs are and are not
worth the investment. Before I joined Robin Hood, I was
critical of philanthropy and and and I still am in
(37:24):
the historical sense of what philanthropy is or what philanthropy
has always been interpreted as. Right, this idea of yes,
I can write a check and somehow that's going to
be enough. The thing and why I'm so proud to
lead this organization now is this is an organization that understands, yes,
that's not going to be enough. We have to address structure.
(37:48):
We have to address the fact that you know you
can put you all the money into affordable housing or
whatever that you want. But the reality is this, if
we don't also reinforce and fight and advocate for a
right to counsel, because one of the fastest growing reasons
and one of the largest reason why people end up
homeless is because they are in homes and they are
being evicted because you have landlords who have an incentive
(38:10):
to be able to kick them out because then you
can raise your rent up to market value rates. So
we have to be able to establish that people have
a fundamental right to counsel because we have to do
everything that we can do from keeping people from getting
evicted from their homes. If we don't understand that a
person is coming back from prison and a person who
has paid their debt when they come back home, we
(38:32):
can say, yes, you know, we wish you the best
to luck. But by the way, you can't live in
public housing, you know, even if your family is there.
Or you can apply to colleges, but remember you can't
get pell grants. And so we continue to have asterix
next to people's names. So the reality is that every
sentence ends up becoming a life sentence. That's not something
that philanthropy can fix. Philanthropy's job public charity's job, Robin
(38:53):
Hood's job is to not just use our capital to
be able to address a very human pain that exists
right now, but is to use our capital to make
sure we don't have to have people that have to
have human pain in the first place. So here's what
I've heard. Privilege exists, but a lot of people struggle
to recognize or acknowledge it in themselves. It makes us
(39:13):
very defensive. And here's the thing. If you want to
address inequality, it is not about giving something up. It's
about democratizing opportunity. If we've got privilege and we say
we care about equality, this idea that we may have
to give something up to give someone else a chance.
(39:34):
It's not about giving your seat up at the table
for someone else. It's saying, let's buy a bigger table,
let's make more room. Privilege comes in many shapes and sizes.
I started my career in the old boys network of
Wall Street, and although I lacked the obvious privilege of
guys like my husband, I realize, yes, he may have
(39:56):
had a leg up, but I was still in the room.
It's about saying, let me acknowledge what I have, let
me understand someone else's position, and let me say, is
there a way more of us can rise together? And
at least acknowledging it is the first step toward figuring
out my own privilege. So what am I gonna do?
(40:17):
I'm gonna keep having conversations just like this. This has
been our conversation on privilege. Thanks for listening, bringing an
open mind, and helping me create the Modern Rules. I
want more of this conversation. Go deeper and read this
week's Modern Rules feature only on NBC news dot Com
Slash Better. Yeah, that's it for today's episode. I'm your host,
(40:49):
Stephanie Rule. A very, very special thanks to the extraordinary
people who made this happen. My producers Julie Brown, Samantha
Eullen and An Bark Audio, Michael Byett for book king
and wrangling, the amazing guests who joined us, Julian Weller
for editing and bill plaques, Michael Azar and Jacobo Penzo
for their recording expertise. Special thanks to Steve lick Tag,
(41:11):
Barbara Rab, Jonathan Wald, Marie Dugo, Holly traz Nikki Etre
and Christina Everett are Executive producers are Conald Byrne and
Mangesh Hatiga Door, and of course the men who brought
us all together, Chairman and CEO of I Heart Media
Bob Pittman and Chairman of NBC News Andy Left. For
more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart
(41:31):
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows,
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