May 31, 2022 • 29 mins
In this episode of Live from Greenwood, Mara Hall gives us a tour of the Mabel B. Little heritage museum and a tour of the Greenwood cultural center.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey Money Movers, Welcome back to Money Moves, the daily
podcast determined to give you the keys to the Kingdom
of financial stability, wealth and abundance. Hey Money Mover family,
Welcome back to the Money Moves podcast powered by green
(00:22):
We're back with another installment of Live from Greenwood. As
you known, there's quite a rich history of the community before, during,
and after the attack took place, and we are here
to tell you all of those stories. Hey mar Hall here.
We are here at the mayble Be Little Heritage House
and we are about to meet with Ms Michelle Brown,
(00:43):
program coordinator here of the Greenwood Cultural Center. Let's go
learn something today, y'all. Come on, Thank you, thank you
so much for being here. I am so excited to
be able to show you this home. Thank you. I'm
so so excited to even be here and just learn
about the lineage, the heritage, the history, everything that the
Maybe will Be Little Heritage House has to offer. So
(01:04):
we are standing in the home of Sam and Lucy Mackie.
These are portraits of the homeowners here. Mr Mackie was
a landscaper and Miss Mackie worked in the home of
rich White Tulson's. Their original home was three blocks north
of here, and it was a grand home in itself.
(01:26):
But their home was destroyed during the Tulsa Race massacre,
and Mr Mackie, like many other African Americans in this area,
decided that they were going to stand their ground. They
were going to stay in the Greenwood district, and they
were going to rebuild. However, Mr Mackie hired an architect
who won one thousand dollars for the design of the
(01:46):
home because it was one of the first homes in
the area where you could stand at the bottom of
the stairs and cut the lights on upstairs, and that
was a really big deal. He made this home to
be especially convenient for his wife, and it resembled many
of the homes that would that you would see in
rich white neighborhoods. Ms Mackie was a very short and
(02:08):
petite woman, so you'll notice when we go through the
kitchen that the cabinets and countertops were made to be
especially convenient for her. He gave her a grand um staircase,
and she was known for having tea parties and mission
meetings and get together and wedding receptions, so brides loved
making a grand entrance down the staircase. Some of the
(02:31):
pieces of furnitureings in this home date back to eighteen
is a French courting chair. It dates back to eighteen
sixty five and it was designed so that when a
young woman had a male suitor, she would sit in
a chair, Her male suitor would sit in a chair,
and then her parents or chaperone would sit in the
(02:51):
third chair. The oregon is dates back to the mid
eighteen hundreds. Yes, let's say, let's go take a look
at the organ. Many African American families, there were families
in the Greenwood District that actually had grand pianos in
their homes, and it was one of the things that
(03:12):
caused so much envy um from whites who stated, how
dare those Negroes have a grand piano in their home
and I don't have one in my home. This home
was set for demolition after urban renewal came through the
Greenwood district and the community fought to save this home
(03:33):
as an example of how some African Americans were able
to live. And so it says on the plaque outside
that it is a replica only because we had to
move the home section by section and put it back together.
But this is the home that he rebuilt for his wife, Lucy.
(03:53):
I love that. So you just said some really really
historical points, and something that really touched home with me
was the envy of white people and how if African
Americans had different things like a grand piano, they were
very jealous and very envious of that. And that was
maybe some of the catalyst that started what happened in
nineteen because they were very jealous of all of the
(04:16):
prosperity the African Americans in the Greenwood district had. Could
you just expand upon that a little bit? Absolutely. So,
this home was located in the Greenwood District and at
that time in n there were hundreds of black owned
businesses lining the streets of Greenwood. From their doorsteps, they
could see restaurants and movie theaters, hotels. One of the
(04:39):
most elaborate hotels owned by a black man and all
of America was located in the Greenwood District. It held
more than fifty four rooms. There were doctors and electricians.
The male brother called Dr. A. C. Jackson one of
the most able Negro surgeons in America, and he was
(05:00):
located in the Greenwood district. And in fact, whites would
come over into the Greenwood District to visit with Dr. A. C. Jackson.
So there were professionals, um anything you can imagine wanting
or needing in your community at that time. They had
built in the Greenwood District. And yes, that did cause
some envy among whites, especially poor whites who were struggling
(05:23):
to find jobs. Who commented that they could stand atop
the structures in downtown Tulsa and look over into the
Greenwood District and see black men and women driving cars
and dressing in their finest apparel and walking into their
own businesses, their own homes that they owned. Home ownership
was actually, um, there was more home ownership in the
(05:47):
black community than in the white community. Yes, very very
very wonderful information. And a lot of people don't know
about the Greenwood District and know about all of the
prosperity and all of the black excellence was here, and
just you know, just expand upon about black excellence. The
house was named after Maybel B. Little. Why was it
so important to tell her story about her being a
(06:10):
pioneer in the Greenwood District. So Maybel B. Little was
actually one of the North Tulsa pioneers and community members
that came forward during a Model Cities community meeting to
say that we want to say this home Um which
had been set for demolition. Maybel Belittle was actual actually
(06:30):
an entrepreneur herself who had her own um beauty um
parlor and beauty school. I believe she was well loved
and many people Um look up to her and respect
her and honor her legacy. So after she worked so
hard to help preserve this home, when the home was dedicated,
(06:52):
it was named in her her honor. That's wonderful, Thank
you so much. So this is the couple's formal dining room.
And when we renovated the home, many other community members
helped to donate furnishings, find china and silver to restore
(07:12):
the home. But this would have been their formal dining room.
And we'll take a look at their kitchen. Let's go.
Mr Mackie's effort to make this home especially convenient for
his wife, Lucy Mackie, who was very short, very petite,
and so the counters and the cabinets were made to
be especially convenient for her. And this is where she
(07:34):
would have done all of her cooking. And there's also
a second restroom which was unusual for a home to
have an upstairs and downstairs restroom. So I'd love to
take you upstairs and show you their master bedroom. I
think you're going to be impressed. Let's see it. Wow, Wow,
(08:02):
you were right. Oh my goodness. Look at this master
master bid. Oh my goodness. And this was in nineteen
rebuilt their home by and this is the home that
they rebuilt. And I want to show you a piece
(08:24):
this actually dates. These are wedding slippers that date. Wow,
those are beautiful. And this is a beat it shaw
that I rarely pick up. And then there's a blouse
(08:49):
that goes to it. And Thursday was made stay off.
So they would spend the afternoon getting their hair done
and getting dressed. Dressed in their finest apparel. They would
parade for each other up and down Greenwood, going into
(09:10):
the various nightclubs. There were jazz and blues clubs, the restaurants,
the hotels, the movie theaters. There was a ton of
things to do on green With at that time. And
Miss Macki and some of her girlfriends from over in
the windows were stand at the window and wave at
people as they walked up and down Greenwood dressed in
(09:32):
their finest apparel. Um, the men dressed in their suits
and hats, and the women, they said at that time,
weren't seeing out in public without their hats and their gloves.
So there are a number of hats that are sitting
on her dresser there. Those are very nice and just
um to the north is this is an old Winger
(09:56):
sewing machine. Wow, as this would have been her sitting
room or dressing room. There's another example of what they
would have worn during that time, during the period prior
to the massacre, and again by when they rebuilt. This
(10:19):
is wonderful. I see all of the original furniture is here,
still intact, and it's very impressive. That's a typewriter from
from that time, with two typewriters, and this wonderful chest
and trunk. And so this is would be the sitting
room where she would get dressed. Oh, and an iron.
I love it. Yes, And I asked the young people
(10:42):
when they come through, Um, this would have been in
the mid forties when actually black Wall Street had been
rebuilt and they were UM seen a lot of prosperity
and growth and development in this area. This is the
iron that they used. And I asked the young people
to pick it up because they ironed everything and it
(11:03):
is extremely heavy. There's also a protector in some of
the movies that they would have watched during that time.
So you just made mention. In the nineteen forties that
black Wall Street here in the Greenwood District was rebuilt.
Was it rebuilt and revitalized to the same capacity that
it was before. So the massacre took place in by
(11:30):
they had completely rebuilt the district and we saw more
businesses black owned businesses in the Greenwood District than we
had prior to the massacre, and the district would thrive
through the twenties, the thirties, the forties up until several
things happened. One was the city of Tulsa building the
(11:51):
expressway through the heart of the Greenwood District, which seems
to have happened throughout our nation, and it hurt the
small business owners that were living near that expressway. Some
were forced to relocate um their businesses. And the other
thing was the end of segregation. The dollar would circulate
(12:13):
at least nineteen times in the Greenwood District before leaving
this community. The end of segregation meant that the dollar
was now being spent outside of the Greenwood District, which
caused those small businesses to suffer. And when we asked
some of our survivors why they would spend their money
in white owned stores, UM and businesses, they said that
(12:36):
it wasn't that the product or service was any better.
It was simply that now they had a right to
do that, and they wanted to exercise that right, not
understanding the long term consequences of taking money outside of
this community. So eventually urban renewal came through, which UM
is often referred to as urban removal UM. The must, originally,
(13:01):
i believe, was to rebuild the Greenwood district, rebuilt UM
black Wall Street, and that didn't actually happen. So what
we have now at the corner of Greenwood and Archer,
which was once the heart of the Greenwood district, is
a remnant of the businesses that once were, and we
are seeing revitalization in this area. We have more than
(13:23):
thirty business owners in the Greenwood district, so we are
seeing UM black Wall Street revitalized to some degree. However,
we may never have a physical black Wall Street, but
black Wall Street is more of an idea, it's a mentality,
it's a way of thinking it's a movement. It's a movement. Yes,
(13:45):
So Ms Michelle, thank you so much for showing us
the second floor of this wonderful property, this wonderful heritage house.
You have taught me and everyone so much and I'm
just truly, truly, truly grateful. Do you have any parting
words for us? Thank you? No, I am just so
honored to be able to share this home and to
share a little bit of the history that we have
(14:05):
not been exposed to, that has not been taught in
our history classes or included in the textbooks. So thank
you so much for taking the time to come and
learn more about our history. We want to thank Ms
Michelle Burdicks again for having us here at the Heritage House.
I'm Marrow Hall with the Money Moves podcast and this
is another untold story, So welcome, welcome to the Greenwood
(14:27):
Cultural Center. I am so excited to be able to
share the exhibit with you. Thank you for having a
absolutely so o w. Gurley when he moved here nineteen
o six, he purchased forty acres of land at the
corner near the corner of Greenwood and Archer. Many African
(14:48):
Americans came to Greenwood Um. During the Trail of Tears,
when Native Americans were moving into Oklahoma territory, some tribes
actually owned black slaves, which is something that I didn't
learn about until I came to work here. And because
of the treaty with the tribes in the US government,
(15:11):
those slaves were made freedmen and they were given allotments
of land. And so in a very short period of time,
you had African Americans who were landowners who then began
to build their homes on those uh properties, and Oklahoma
would have more all black townships than any other state.
(15:34):
When Oklahoma became a state, the first law that it
passed with the Jim Crow Loft, which segregated the races.
So you had African Americans who were moving into the
Greenwood District who saw this land as the promised land.
They were looking to escape the oppressive South. They were
looking for new opportunities and looking um for their freedom,
(15:57):
and so this was their opportunity to build their hall
them and to build their businesses. So African Americans were
actually moving here from all over the country. Many of
them moved here with skills. They moved here and were educated,
and so they came and began to build this community.
But because their money was not welcome Um and White
(16:17):
on Tulsa, Uh, they brought their money back to Greenwood. Now,
about sevent of the community still worked in the service industry,
so they were making money and had money to spend
um and had a need for clothing and housewares and
food and groceries and etcetera. And so they would spend
(16:38):
their money in the Greenwood district and that dollar would
circulate time and time again nineteen times, yes, ma'am. But
what's important to know when we are often asked how
did they build Black Wall Street? And people are really
interested about where do they get their money and where
do they get their resources? But what's most important to
(16:58):
know about how Wall Street was created? Based on the
conversations that we've had with our survivors years ago. When
we spoke with them about it, they said, we had
such a love for our community and a love for
each other that when one person got their business up
and off the ground, they would grab the hand of
(17:19):
their brother or sister and pull them up alongside them.
They shared resources, they shared opportunities lifting as we climb.
Absolutely absolutely, and so a very in a very short
period of time, they had created this prosperous, thriving black
owned business district where men and women own their own businesses.
They said, in fact, that everyone Um was making money.
(17:41):
There was money to be made. I'd like to show
you one of the images of the Greenwood district. Oh
you're okay. This is Greenwood seen what would later became
(18:01):
known as the Blackwall Street of America. These are all
black owned businesses lining the streets. Could you describe the picture? Yes,
so in the picture here at the corner. This is
near the corner of Greenwin into archer Um facing north.
(18:22):
And this is a picture that Um appeared in Mary
Jones Parish's book The Events of the Tulsa Disaster, which
was published in so. Mary Jones Parish was a young
black woman who had moved to Um Greenwood. She was
a reporter and one of the things that she did
immediately following the massacre was to begin to go and
(18:42):
collect oral histories, to collect people stories and to document
what had taken place. But this is a picture from
nineteen seventeen and you can see, uh the dentist building
that would have been that was there, and all of
the other buildings lining the streets in several cars along
the road. On the Blackwall Street Memorial, which we unveiled
(19:06):
today after it's been renovated, there's a list of the
hundreds of black owned businesses that were in the Greenwood district.
This is a photograph of J. D. Man and the
grocery store UM that was near King in Greenwood in
nine there were several grocery stores in the Greenwood district
(19:27):
owned by African Americans. He actually Um was one of
a number of brothers that all owned grocery stores. One
of my favorite people to discuss is Simon Barry. Simon
Barry was a private pilot who owned his own plane.
(19:49):
That's him in his plane and below is his partner J. L. Northington.
They transported rich white oil men who would come into
downtown Tulsa, and it's it is said that they earned
up to five hundred dollars a day transporting oil men
in their plane. He also owned a Jitney service UM
(20:11):
and there are images of those buses. I think he
started with a single vehicle and expanded to a Jitney service.
And it is said that the public transportation system that
the city of Tulsa owns today they purchased from Simon
Barry with the agreement that they would keep their black
mechanics and black bus drivers. But it is remarkable to
(20:34):
think that there was a black man in that was
a private pilot and owned his own plane. So these
are survivors of Tulsa Raised massacre. This exhibit is about
ten years old, and at that time these individuals were
(20:57):
still willing and able to share something that they remembered
about the massacre or about Black Wall Street. Some of
them were very young, and so they shared memories of
what their parents or grandparents shared with them. Some were
much older. Daddy Clark died at a hundred nine years old.
He was a teenager during the massacre, so he had
a vivid memory of what he experienced here in the
(21:18):
Greenwood district during the massacre. Under each photograph is a caption,
and since this exhibit was put on display, each of
these survivors have since passed. So one of the things
that happened during um or immediately following the massacre was
(21:39):
the city of Tulsa set up three interment sites. There
were sites where African Americans were held. The entire population
of the African American community was ten to twelve thousand men,
women and children, and about six thousand of those people
were held at those sites. And what they said was
that it was for their protection, but what it did
(22:01):
was leave their homes and businesses defenseless, so that the
white riders could then go in and take whatever valuables
they wanted and then set everything else on fire. And
so eventually, several days a week or so later, those
individuals who had been held were released and able to
(22:23):
return to the Greenwood District. However, what they returned to
was their homes and businesses smoldering. What they returned to
was seeing their businesses and homes completely destroyed. Many of
them had nothing but the clothes on their backs. Many
(22:43):
people were able to flee, of course, there were many
all black towns nearby. Some people were able to flee
the Greenwood District um. It is said that they ran
along the railroad tracks and they were able to escape
before being captured. There were others who were hidden in
(23:04):
nearby churches. It has been said that there's a residential
area nearby where whites were actually hiding blacks in their
basements um and saving lives lives by doing that. There
were especially several nearby churches, but individuals who risked their
(23:25):
lives to protect African Americans. What is unknown is what
happened to a large number of African Americans who were
simply never heard from again. And in some of the remembrances,
they speak of a father or an uncle or grandfather
(23:46):
who left to help protect the Greenwood District who was
simply never heard from again, and they commented, I know
my father wouldn't have just left us, but I don't
know what how been to him. Now. Currently, the city
of Tulsa UM is conducting a mass graves investigation. We
(24:07):
believe that there are several mass grave sites in Tulsa
and there could be some in surrounding communities. Those are
some of the reports UM that we've had, and so
the most widely recognized number is that about three people
lost their lives, but we don't know if that number
could not be UM significantly larger than that. UM. They
(24:32):
are set to resume the mass graves investigation June one,
UM at Oaklawn Cemetery they did identify I believe thirteen
UM caskets. They're what they believe are the remains of
thirteen individuals UM and some. I believe two of those
people were given a proper burial. However, there are several
(24:56):
other sites to research to determine if they are also
a mass grave site, and even the bodies that are
at Oaklawn Cemetery, the research has to show in the
investigation once it is completed, will show whether they are
victims of the massacre based on whether there are any
(25:17):
trauma to the remains, etcetera. We are also working to
help identify descendants. Because of the technology that we have today,
we're hopeful that um we will be able to connect
uh those remains possibly with descendants through genealogy and DNA. Yes. So,
(25:40):
the legacy of many of these survivors is their resilience,
their courage, their strength, and their determination. The fact that
following the massacre, what many people still don't know about
this story is that the history of the Greenwood District,
(26:00):
it's not just that there was a massacre. It was
that Black Wall Street was rebuilt in five short years
and even though they faced many obstacles, the black community
came together and work together to rebuild their community. And
that's the story the legacy that we want people to remember.
(26:23):
How important it was for them to share their resources,
to work together, to share their money, UM, to share ideas,
and to support one another. And essentially that is how
they were able to build black Wall Street initially, and
(26:45):
they then rebuild it once it had been destroyed. When
our children learned about the history of the Greenwood District,
we want them to feel empowered and proud and elevated.
And in fact, sometimes when I see young people who
come to learn about this history and they learned that
blacks were many, blacks were well educated, they were savvy
(27:06):
business owners, Um, you can almost see their chest puff
up in their shoulders. We're back because this is a
part of history that they didn't know. This is a
part of the story that has not been told historically,
and so that's always been important for me. Now. Our
(27:27):
survivors UM when they were approached years ago the Tulsa
Race where our commission was formed, UM somewhere or so
to study the events of the massacre, because so much
of what we knew was based on oral histories and
(27:49):
the few documents that had been produced. And so several
of the survivors went to the state capital to hear
um the commission's final report. And I was there when
several survivors were approached by reporters who said, you know,
we know you want something. You know, what exactly are
(28:10):
you what exactly are you asking for? And they said,
of course, we believe that preparations are due for where
our families lost their homes and their businesses, their lives
even but what we want more than anything is for
our children and grandchildren to finally know that there's more
to black history than slavery in the Civil Rights movement,
that black history didn't start with slavery. We want them
(28:33):
to know that we were successful people, We were a
strong people, were courageous people, and we work together, We
supported one another. And if we ever hope to rebuild
the Greenwood District, if we ever hope to rebuild a
black wall street here in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or anywhere in
our nation, it is going to take us getting back
to a place where we love ourselves enough to love
(28:54):
one another, where we're able to support and encourage each other,
where we share idea, us and resources and information. It's
going to take us getting back to a place where
we believe in being unified and rebuilding together. Thank you, Michelle,
(29:15):
thank you, thank you so much, for tuning in Money
Moves audience. If you want more or a recap of
this episode, please go to the bank Greenwood dot com
and check out the Money Moves podcast blog. Money Moves
is an I Heart Radio podcast powered by Greenwoods Executive
(29:38):
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you get your podcasts from.
Hey Money Movers, Welcome back to Money Moves, the daily
podcast determined to give you the keys to the Kingdom
of financial stability, wealth and abundance. Hey Money Mover family,
Welcome back to the Money Moves podcast powered by green
(00:22):
We're back with another installment of Live from Greenwood. As
you known, there's quite a rich history of the community before, during,
and after the attack took place, and we are here
to tell you all of those stories. Hey mar Hall here.
We are here at the mayble Be Little Heritage House
and we are about to meet with Ms Michelle Brown,
(00:43):
program coordinator here of the Greenwood Cultural Center. Let's go
learn something today, y'all. Come on, Thank you, thank you
so much for being here. I am so excited to
be able to show you this home. Thank you. I'm
so so excited to even be here and just learn
about the lineage, the heritage, the history, everything that the
Maybe will Be Little Heritage House has to offer. So
(01:04):
we are standing in the home of Sam and Lucy Mackie.
These are portraits of the homeowners here. Mr Mackie was
a landscaper and Miss Mackie worked in the home of
rich White Tulson's. Their original home was three blocks north
of here, and it was a grand home in itself.
(01:26):
But their home was destroyed during the Tulsa Race massacre,
and Mr Mackie, like many other African Americans in this area,
decided that they were going to stand their ground. They
were going to stay in the Greenwood district, and they
were going to rebuild. However, Mr Mackie hired an architect
who won one thousand dollars for the design of the
(01:46):
home because it was one of the first homes in
the area where you could stand at the bottom of
the stairs and cut the lights on upstairs, and that
was a really big deal. He made this home to
be especially convenient for his wife, and it resembled many
of the homes that would that you would see in
rich white neighborhoods. Ms Mackie was a very short and
(02:08):
petite woman, so you'll notice when we go through the
kitchen that the cabinets and countertops were made to be
especially convenient for her. He gave her a grand um staircase,
and she was known for having tea parties and mission
meetings and get together and wedding receptions, so brides loved
making a grand entrance down the staircase. Some of the
(02:31):
pieces of furnitureings in this home date back to eighteen
is a French courting chair. It dates back to eighteen
sixty five and it was designed so that when a
young woman had a male suitor, she would sit in
a chair, Her male suitor would sit in a chair,
and then her parents or chaperone would sit in the
(02:51):
third chair. The oregon is dates back to the mid
eighteen hundreds. Yes, let's say, let's go take a look
at the organ. Many African American families, there were families
in the Greenwood District that actually had grand pianos in
their homes, and it was one of the things that
(03:12):
caused so much envy um from whites who stated, how
dare those Negroes have a grand piano in their home
and I don't have one in my home. This home
was set for demolition after urban renewal came through the
Greenwood district and the community fought to save this home
(03:33):
as an example of how some African Americans were able
to live. And so it says on the plaque outside
that it is a replica only because we had to
move the home section by section and put it back together.
But this is the home that he rebuilt for his wife, Lucy.
(03:53):
I love that. So you just said some really really
historical points, and something that really touched home with me
was the envy of white people and how if African
Americans had different things like a grand piano, they were
very jealous and very envious of that. And that was
maybe some of the catalyst that started what happened in
nineteen because they were very jealous of all of the
(04:16):
prosperity the African Americans in the Greenwood district had. Could
you just expand upon that a little bit? Absolutely. So,
this home was located in the Greenwood District and at
that time in n there were hundreds of black owned
businesses lining the streets of Greenwood. From their doorsteps, they
could see restaurants and movie theaters, hotels. One of the
(04:39):
most elaborate hotels owned by a black man and all
of America was located in the Greenwood District. It held
more than fifty four rooms. There were doctors and electricians.
The male brother called Dr. A. C. Jackson one of
the most able Negro surgeons in America, and he was
(05:00):
located in the Greenwood district. And in fact, whites would
come over into the Greenwood District to visit with Dr. A. C. Jackson.
So there were professionals, um anything you can imagine wanting
or needing in your community at that time. They had
built in the Greenwood District. And yes, that did cause
some envy among whites, especially poor whites who were struggling
(05:23):
to find jobs. Who commented that they could stand atop
the structures in downtown Tulsa and look over into the
Greenwood District and see black men and women driving cars
and dressing in their finest apparel and walking into their
own businesses, their own homes that they owned. Home ownership
was actually, um, there was more home ownership in the
(05:47):
black community than in the white community. Yes, very very
very wonderful information. And a lot of people don't know
about the Greenwood District and know about all of the
prosperity and all of the black excellence was here, and
just you know, just expand upon about black excellence. The
house was named after Maybel B. Little. Why was it
so important to tell her story about her being a
(06:10):
pioneer in the Greenwood District. So Maybel B. Little was
actually one of the North Tulsa pioneers and community members
that came forward during a Model Cities community meeting to
say that we want to say this home Um which
had been set for demolition. Maybel Belittle was actual actually
(06:30):
an entrepreneur herself who had her own um beauty um
parlor and beauty school. I believe she was well loved
and many people Um look up to her and respect
her and honor her legacy. So after she worked so
hard to help preserve this home, when the home was dedicated,
(06:52):
it was named in her her honor. That's wonderful, Thank
you so much. So this is the couple's formal dining room.
And when we renovated the home, many other community members
helped to donate furnishings, find china and silver to restore
(07:12):
the home. But this would have been their formal dining room.
And we'll take a look at their kitchen. Let's go.
Mr Mackie's effort to make this home especially convenient for
his wife, Lucy Mackie, who was very short, very petite,
and so the counters and the cabinets were made to
be especially convenient for her. And this is where she
(07:34):
would have done all of her cooking. And there's also
a second restroom which was unusual for a home to
have an upstairs and downstairs restroom. So I'd love to
take you upstairs and show you their master bedroom. I
think you're going to be impressed. Let's see it. Wow, Wow,
(08:02):
you were right. Oh my goodness. Look at this master
master bid. Oh my goodness. And this was in nineteen
rebuilt their home by and this is the home that
they rebuilt. And I want to show you a piece
(08:24):
this actually dates. These are wedding slippers that date. Wow,
those are beautiful. And this is a beat it shaw
that I rarely pick up. And then there's a blouse
(08:49):
that goes to it. And Thursday was made stay off.
So they would spend the afternoon getting their hair done
and getting dressed. Dressed in their finest apparel. They would
parade for each other up and down Greenwood, going into
(09:10):
the various nightclubs. There were jazz and blues clubs, the restaurants,
the hotels, the movie theaters. There was a ton of
things to do on green With at that time. And
Miss Macki and some of her girlfriends from over in
the windows were stand at the window and wave at
people as they walked up and down Greenwood dressed in
(09:32):
their finest apparel. Um, the men dressed in their suits
and hats, and the women, they said at that time,
weren't seeing out in public without their hats and their gloves.
So there are a number of hats that are sitting
on her dresser there. Those are very nice and just
um to the north is this is an old Winger
(09:56):
sewing machine. Wow, as this would have been her sitting
room or dressing room. There's another example of what they
would have worn during that time, during the period prior
to the massacre, and again by when they rebuilt. This
(10:19):
is wonderful. I see all of the original furniture is here,
still intact, and it's very impressive. That's a typewriter from
from that time, with two typewriters, and this wonderful chest
and trunk. And so this is would be the sitting
room where she would get dressed. Oh, and an iron.
I love it. Yes, And I asked the young people
(10:42):
when they come through, Um, this would have been in
the mid forties when actually black Wall Street had been
rebuilt and they were UM seen a lot of prosperity
and growth and development in this area. This is the
iron that they used. And I asked the young people
to pick it up because they ironed everything and it
(11:03):
is extremely heavy. There's also a protector in some of
the movies that they would have watched during that time.
So you just made mention. In the nineteen forties that
black Wall Street here in the Greenwood District was rebuilt.
Was it rebuilt and revitalized to the same capacity that
it was before. So the massacre took place in by
(11:30):
they had completely rebuilt the district and we saw more
businesses black owned businesses in the Greenwood District than we
had prior to the massacre, and the district would thrive
through the twenties, the thirties, the forties up until several
things happened. One was the city of Tulsa building the
(11:51):
expressway through the heart of the Greenwood District, which seems
to have happened throughout our nation, and it hurt the
small business owners that were living near that expressway. Some
were forced to relocate um their businesses. And the other
thing was the end of segregation. The dollar would circulate
(12:13):
at least nineteen times in the Greenwood District before leaving
this community. The end of segregation meant that the dollar
was now being spent outside of the Greenwood District, which
caused those small businesses to suffer. And when we asked
some of our survivors why they would spend their money
in white owned stores, UM and businesses, they said that
(12:36):
it wasn't that the product or service was any better.
It was simply that now they had a right to
do that, and they wanted to exercise that right, not
understanding the long term consequences of taking money outside of
this community. So eventually urban renewal came through, which UM
is often referred to as urban removal UM. The must, originally,
(13:01):
i believe, was to rebuild the Greenwood district, rebuilt UM
black Wall Street, and that didn't actually happen. So what
we have now at the corner of Greenwood and Archer,
which was once the heart of the Greenwood district, is
a remnant of the businesses that once were, and we
are seeing revitalization in this area. We have more than
(13:23):
thirty business owners in the Greenwood district, so we are
seeing UM black Wall Street revitalized to some degree. However,
we may never have a physical black Wall Street, but
black Wall Street is more of an idea, it's a mentality,
it's a way of thinking it's a movement. It's a movement. Yes,
(13:45):
So Ms Michelle, thank you so much for showing us
the second floor of this wonderful property, this wonderful heritage house.
You have taught me and everyone so much and I'm
just truly, truly, truly grateful. Do you have any parting
words for us? Thank you? No, I am just so
honored to be able to share this home and to
share a little bit of the history that we have
(14:05):
not been exposed to, that has not been taught in
our history classes or included in the textbooks. So thank
you so much for taking the time to come and
learn more about our history. We want to thank Ms
Michelle Burdicks again for having us here at the Heritage House.
I'm Marrow Hall with the Money Moves podcast and this
is another untold story, So welcome, welcome to the Greenwood
(14:27):
Cultural Center. I am so excited to be able to
share the exhibit with you. Thank you for having a
absolutely so o w. Gurley when he moved here nineteen
o six, he purchased forty acres of land at the
corner near the corner of Greenwood and Archer. Many African
(14:48):
Americans came to Greenwood Um. During the Trail of Tears,
when Native Americans were moving into Oklahoma territory, some tribes
actually owned black slaves, which is something that I didn't
learn about until I came to work here. And because
of the treaty with the tribes in the US government,
(15:11):
those slaves were made freedmen and they were given allotments
of land. And so in a very short period of time,
you had African Americans who were landowners who then began
to build their homes on those uh properties, and Oklahoma
would have more all black townships than any other state.
(15:34):
When Oklahoma became a state, the first law that it
passed with the Jim Crow Loft, which segregated the races.
So you had African Americans who were moving into the
Greenwood District who saw this land as the promised land.
They were looking to escape the oppressive South. They were
looking for new opportunities and looking um for their freedom,
(15:57):
and so this was their opportunity to build their hall
them and to build their businesses. So African Americans were
actually moving here from all over the country. Many of
them moved here with skills. They moved here and were educated,
and so they came and began to build this community.
But because their money was not welcome Um and White
(16:17):
on Tulsa, Uh, they brought their money back to Greenwood. Now,
about sevent of the community still worked in the service industry,
so they were making money and had money to spend
um and had a need for clothing and housewares and
food and groceries and etcetera. And so they would spend
(16:38):
their money in the Greenwood district and that dollar would
circulate time and time again nineteen times, yes, ma'am. But
what's important to know when we are often asked how
did they build Black Wall Street? And people are really
interested about where do they get their money and where
do they get their resources? But what's most important to
(16:58):
know about how Wall Street was created? Based on the
conversations that we've had with our survivors years ago. When
we spoke with them about it, they said, we had
such a love for our community and a love for
each other that when one person got their business up
and off the ground, they would grab the hand of
(17:19):
their brother or sister and pull them up alongside them.
They shared resources, they shared opportunities lifting as we climb.
Absolutely absolutely, and so a very in a very short
period of time, they had created this prosperous, thriving black
owned business district where men and women own their own businesses.
They said, in fact, that everyone Um was making money.
(17:41):
There was money to be made. I'd like to show
you one of the images of the Greenwood district. Oh
you're okay. This is Greenwood seen what would later became
(18:01):
known as the Blackwall Street of America. These are all
black owned businesses lining the streets. Could you describe the picture? Yes,
so in the picture here at the corner. This is
near the corner of Greenwin into archer Um facing north.
(18:22):
And this is a picture that Um appeared in Mary
Jones Parish's book The Events of the Tulsa Disaster, which
was published in so. Mary Jones Parish was a young
black woman who had moved to Um Greenwood. She was
a reporter and one of the things that she did
immediately following the massacre was to begin to go and
(18:42):
collect oral histories, to collect people stories and to document
what had taken place. But this is a picture from
nineteen seventeen and you can see, uh the dentist building
that would have been that was there, and all of
the other buildings lining the streets in several cars along
the road. On the Blackwall Street Memorial, which we unveiled
(19:06):
today after it's been renovated, there's a list of the
hundreds of black owned businesses that were in the Greenwood district.
This is a photograph of J. D. Man and the
grocery store UM that was near King in Greenwood in
nine there were several grocery stores in the Greenwood district
(19:27):
owned by African Americans. He actually Um was one of
a number of brothers that all owned grocery stores. One
of my favorite people to discuss is Simon Barry. Simon
Barry was a private pilot who owned his own plane.
(19:49):
That's him in his plane and below is his partner J. L. Northington.
They transported rich white oil men who would come into
downtown Tulsa, and it's it is said that they earned
up to five hundred dollars a day transporting oil men
in their plane. He also owned a Jitney service UM
(20:11):
and there are images of those buses. I think he
started with a single vehicle and expanded to a Jitney service.
And it is said that the public transportation system that
the city of Tulsa owns today they purchased from Simon
Barry with the agreement that they would keep their black
mechanics and black bus drivers. But it is remarkable to
(20:34):
think that there was a black man in that was
a private pilot and owned his own plane. So these
are survivors of Tulsa Raised massacre. This exhibit is about
ten years old, and at that time these individuals were
(20:57):
still willing and able to share something that they remembered
about the massacre or about Black Wall Street. Some of
them were very young, and so they shared memories of
what their parents or grandparents shared with them. Some were
much older. Daddy Clark died at a hundred nine years old.
He was a teenager during the massacre, so he had
a vivid memory of what he experienced here in the
(21:18):
Greenwood district during the massacre. Under each photograph is a caption,
and since this exhibit was put on display, each of
these survivors have since passed. So one of the things
that happened during um or immediately following the massacre was
(21:39):
the city of Tulsa set up three interment sites. There
were sites where African Americans were held. The entire population
of the African American community was ten to twelve thousand men,
women and children, and about six thousand of those people
were held at those sites. And what they said was
that it was for their protection, but what it did
(22:01):
was leave their homes and businesses defenseless, so that the
white riders could then go in and take whatever valuables
they wanted and then set everything else on fire. And
so eventually, several days a week or so later, those
individuals who had been held were released and able to
(22:23):
return to the Greenwood District. However, what they returned to
was their homes and businesses smoldering. What they returned to
was seeing their businesses and homes completely destroyed. Many of
them had nothing but the clothes on their backs. Many
(22:43):
people were able to flee, of course, there were many
all black towns nearby. Some people were able to flee
the Greenwood District um. It is said that they ran
along the railroad tracks and they were able to escape
before being captured. There were others who were hidden in
(23:04):
nearby churches. It has been said that there's a residential
area nearby where whites were actually hiding blacks in their
basements um and saving lives lives by doing that. There
were especially several nearby churches, but individuals who risked their
(23:25):
lives to protect African Americans. What is unknown is what
happened to a large number of African Americans who were
simply never heard from again. And in some of the remembrances,
they speak of a father or an uncle or grandfather
(23:46):
who left to help protect the Greenwood District who was
simply never heard from again, and they commented, I know
my father wouldn't have just left us, but I don't
know what how been to him. Now. Currently, the city
of Tulsa UM is conducting a mass graves investigation. We
(24:07):
believe that there are several mass grave sites in Tulsa
and there could be some in surrounding communities. Those are
some of the reports UM that we've had, and so
the most widely recognized number is that about three people
lost their lives, but we don't know if that number
could not be UM significantly larger than that. UM. They
(24:32):
are set to resume the mass graves investigation June one,
UM at Oaklawn Cemetery they did identify I believe thirteen
UM caskets. They're what they believe are the remains of
thirteen individuals UM and some. I believe two of those
people were given a proper burial. However, there are several
(24:56):
other sites to research to determine if they are also
a mass grave site, and even the bodies that are
at Oaklawn Cemetery, the research has to show in the
investigation once it is completed, will show whether they are
victims of the massacre based on whether there are any
(25:17):
trauma to the remains, etcetera. We are also working to
help identify descendants. Because of the technology that we have today,
we're hopeful that um we will be able to connect
uh those remains possibly with descendants through genealogy and DNA. Yes. So,
(25:40):
the legacy of many of these survivors is their resilience,
their courage, their strength, and their determination. The fact that
following the massacre, what many people still don't know about
this story is that the history of the Greenwood District,
(26:00):
it's not just that there was a massacre. It was
that Black Wall Street was rebuilt in five short years
and even though they faced many obstacles, the black community
came together and work together to rebuild their community. And
that's the story the legacy that we want people to remember.
(26:23):
How important it was for them to share their resources,
to work together, to share their money, UM, to share ideas,
and to support one another. And essentially that is how
they were able to build black Wall Street initially, and
(26:45):
they then rebuild it once it had been destroyed. When
our children learned about the history of the Greenwood District,
we want them to feel empowered and proud and elevated.
And in fact, sometimes when I see young people who
come to learn about this history and they learned that
blacks were many, blacks were well educated, they were savvy
(27:06):
business owners, Um, you can almost see their chest puff
up in their shoulders. We're back because this is a
part of history that they didn't know. This is a
part of the story that has not been told historically,
and so that's always been important for me. Now. Our
(27:27):
survivors UM when they were approached years ago the Tulsa
Race where our commission was formed, UM somewhere or so
to study the events of the massacre, because so much
of what we knew was based on oral histories and
(27:49):
the few documents that had been produced. And so several
of the survivors went to the state capital to hear
um the commission's final report. And I was there when
several survivors were approached by reporters who said, you know,
we know you want something. You know, what exactly are
(28:10):
you what exactly are you asking for? And they said,
of course, we believe that preparations are due for where
our families lost their homes and their businesses, their lives
even but what we want more than anything is for
our children and grandchildren to finally know that there's more
to black history than slavery in the Civil Rights movement,
that black history didn't start with slavery. We want them
(28:33):
to know that we were successful people, We were a
strong people, were courageous people, and we work together, We
supported one another. And if we ever hope to rebuild
the Greenwood District, if we ever hope to rebuild a
black wall street here in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or anywhere in
our nation, it is going to take us getting back
to a place where we love ourselves enough to love
(28:54):
one another, where we're able to support and encourage each other,
where we share idea, us and resources and information. It's
going to take us getting back to a place where
we believe in being unified and rebuilding together. Thank you, Michelle,
(29:15):
thank you, thank you so much, for tuning in Money
Moves audience. If you want more or a recap of
this episode, please go to the bank Greenwood dot com
and check out the Money Moves podcast blog. Money Moves
is an I Heart Radio podcast powered by Greenwoods Executive
(29:38):
produced by Sunwise Media, Inc. For more podcast on iHeart Radio,
visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts from.
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