February 19, 2025 • 33 mins
Part 1 of Payne Lindsey's extended conversation with Kerri Rawson, the daughter of Dennis Rader.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to this special bonus episode of Monster BTK. Early
in the process of making the show, executive producer Payne
Lindsay got a call from Carrie Rawson, daughter of Dennis Raider,
the BTK Killer. They sat down together for an interview.
What came out of that was a five hour conversation
(00:24):
in Atlanta where they covered everything from her early childhood
to learning about her dad's true identity when she was
an adult. You've heard some of it throughout the podcasts,
but we left a ton on the cutting room floor.
So now I'm pleased to share with you an abbreviated
version of Payne's conversation with Carrie Rawson. I hope you
(00:48):
enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Keeping as simple, introduce yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I'm Carrie Rawson. I'm the daughter of dentist Raider, who's
better known as the BTK Killer, from which talk Kansas.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yes, how does it feel saying that?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Uh, it's been a long process. It's been sixteen years
since his arrest in two thousand and five. It's been
a very long process to be able to even say
BTK out loud, and then to acknowledge like that he
is my dad and I'm his daughter. Most headlines that
involved me are still btk's daughter. But like I'm a
best selling author now I'm a member about my life,
(01:24):
you know, growing up with my father and his arrest
and everything. But I'm still not known as Carrie Rossen.
I'm known probably for eternity as btk's daughter.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
But you're not. You're also your Carrie.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
That was a lot of like my process of healing.
I mean, I was Carrie and he was Dad, and
then he was arrested, and all of a sudden he
was BTK and I lost Carrie. You know, a lot
of my book is about that, losing me and finding
myself again. My husband Darien said in twenty twelve, once
(01:58):
I forgave my dad, I came back to carry. I
was gone for seven years. You know, a lot of
who I am and what makes me me, like the
person sitting across from you, was gone. So when I
let go of some of that stuff, that's when I
started coming back to me. But I really didn't really
(02:18):
start healing, I don't think until I started speaking up
in the media in twenty fourteen. A lot of my
later journey was about coming to terms not only with
who my dad was, how I knew him who he
actually was. This other side I had to learn and
then coming back to terms with who I am in
context of my dad, and then what was I going
(02:40):
to do with it? So, I mean, it's just been
a massive process for me many years.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Where'd you grow up?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So I grew up in Wichita, Kansas. I was born
in June of nineteen seventy eight. We lived in Park City.
It's a small northern suburb of Wichita, so about five
thousand people. I was like a big spread out metro area,
probably about five hundred thousand now. So I lived nine
houses down from my mom's parents, II Leen and Palmer Deets.
(03:09):
So my mom literally moved nine houses down when she
married my dad in May of seventy one, and they
bought this three bedroom ranch that has the zact layout
as my grandparents' house, but it has a much bigger
yard because like my dad loved the garden, so he
planted trees and he built this massive garden in the back.
(03:29):
And then he said, when I was about two, he
had to install a metal fence because before then he
didn't have a fence. But he said, I was like
wandering over to like the neighbors to pether huge dog,
like this wolf like dog, and he was like freaked out,
so he had to start like fencing me in.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
By the time I was like two, were you just
curious or what?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Yeah, I've always just been a go get her, like
total tomboy adventure to go do anything and everything was
my dad. He would like take me out gardening, you know,
I was three or four. He was teaching me about
all the plants, the vegetables, growing seasons, soil. Anything Dad
was doing I wanted to do. Like he loved the outdoors,
(04:14):
so he was cool and let me get muddy. And
my mom hates the outdoors like literally, my mom is
like outside to go like home to car, like church.
Literally she hates the outdoors.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
What kind of garden was this?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Just a you know of like a family garden that
he had plotted out. He even turned my bedroom into
a greenhouse, like I was three or four, and he
set up solder lights, I mean like the big fourlescent
lights and had trays of seed lingks and literally I
couldn't sleep in my room, so I was sleeping like
(04:48):
in the bottom buck of my brother's bunk. Bad my
brother Bride's three years older than me. And like in
my book, I talk about remembering, like my dad taking
these trays of seeds and then putting them under this
light in this attached shed that was right connected to
our house. So I literally remember watching my dad take
care of these seeds and water them. Like he was
(05:11):
obsessed with gardening when I was little, Like he would
throw himself into these things, which you know, later on
we learned he was literally throwing himself into stuff to
distract him from murder. Literally, but he was gardening. And
then later on it was the dog track that was
north of Park City, like late eighties or early nineties,
(05:32):
he literally was laid off from work from ADT was
doing work with the census off and on, we didn't
have much money. Then he was gambling at the dog
track and he was getting he was obsessed about it,
like he was like pulling it out of the Wichita Eagle,
like all the stats and like trying to like figure
out the system. And then later it was stamps, So
(05:54):
like nineties up into when he was arrested, he was
collecting stamps. He was doing first day covers, like you
sign an envelope with your name so he's basically autographing
this envelope and then paying exter to have it stamp
with this first day cover and then sent back to
him and like steal plastic. Now did he think that
those were going to have values someday? Like that's like
(06:18):
those unknown questions like the ego and the narcissistem getting
in there, having all of like his autograph on all
these envelopes, It sounds.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Like there was always some sort of obsession. Let's go
back to just Wichita, like put yourself back there as
a kid. What did it look like?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I mean, which is like your classic Midwestern town unless
you count Kansas City. It's the biggest city in Wichita.
So it's like known for like aviotics. So my grandma
Eileen out out of high school. She worked at Boeing
driving a Cushman cart for the World War two effort.
She literally was a Rosie the riveter. Both my grandpas
(06:57):
served in World War Two. Father was born in Pittsburgh, Kansas,
but then lived his first years in Columbus, Kansas with
my grandma's family. They moved to wich Tom when he
was like around five, so they were living on Seneca
like north central Wichita, about three miles from where I
grew up.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
So your parents met at the church.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
My dad, he was in the Air Force from I
think around sixty six to seventy one, so this is
during Vietnam. He graduated from high school Wichita Heights in
sixty three and then he tried community college for a while.
He's not a very good student. And my grandpa, who
had been a marine in World War Two, told him,
you're going to get drafted. So he's like, I don't
(07:42):
want you to get drafted. I want you to enlist
because if you get drafted, you're going to be stuck
in the army and you're going to be stuck in
the bush. So my dad enlisted in the Air Force
and he ended up he never stepped foot in Vietnam.
Like he traveled to Greece, Turkey, Japan, South Korea. He
brought home all these trinkets in like this Kimano robe
(08:03):
from Japan and like influenced by these cultures. And he
had these photos of like the places he had traveled
in Greece and Turkey. When I was a kid, he
had this big box of mementos and like literally this
like that's how disconnected. He is like, this is Vietnam, right,
So like his two younger brothers, Paul and Bill, both
served in Vietnam. Paul was when the Navy on a
(08:25):
swift boat and Bill was a marine stuck walking the bush.
So like my uncles came home with PTSD now talked
about the war, and my dad is like talking like
about that he was vacationing. So when my dad was
in the Air Force, he did like telephone pole work
and wir ring, so that's kind of stuff he would
(08:48):
incorporate later into his crimes. But he he did a
lot of stuff with wires and climbing telephone poles and
communications and things like that, so he was super handy.
So he comes back in the summer seventh. And my
mom grew up at Christ Lutheran. That's our church, so
she's grown up at Christ Lutheran. It was across from
(09:08):
my parents high school, which Isa Heights. So like my
mom and her two sisters and my dad and his brothers,
they all went to the same high school. My mom
was a freshman there when my dad was a senior.
So she said she never met em.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Your dad went to church every Sunday, so my.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Dad grew up Lutheran, and then when my dad was
overseeing so the Air Force is when his parents switched
to the Lutheran church. My mom had been in since
she was little. It was something they both had been
brought up and it was not something you ever questioned.
Like they both always served. He always was either doing
communion later on assistant minister. It was something you did out.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Of your mom, dad, and brother. Who are you closest to?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Out of my family? Growing up? I was definitely probably
closest to my dad. I was close to my brother.
We did a lot of stuff. But I think looking back,
you know, I probably was closest to my dad.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Why is that?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Just because Like Dad had fun and wanted to do
things and be outside and like things that I ended
up enjoying. Like I said, like I could get dirty
and be a tomboy and we would walk the dog
and we would talk. You know, I could be free
and comfortable with him. You know, he took me fishing
and camping. That was huge for us.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Did he enjoy sharing these things with you?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
It's hard when you're over on this side of only
knowing my dad as who he is in the context
of btk you know or what you know about serial killers.
To think of this guy being a father and normal
and enjoying things, but he needed to be outside. He
could get like uptied and angry and difficult and controlling inside.
(10:47):
I mean you would see it in any sort of
building like church, family homes, anywhere, like he just so Okay.
For an example, it's July of two thousand and three,
two weeks before I'm getting married. He was doing something
in the house like he you know, he did a
lot of home repairs. He was always fixing something or
doing something. He left this open toolbox around the corner
(11:09):
next to our stove in the kitchen. I'm just rounding
the corner. I'm probably walking too fast, like I don't
know for like two decades. He's barking at me to
slow down and not walk so fast. And I literally
step with my right foot into this open toolbox. Now,
he left the toolbox there. He shouldn't have left it there.
It's right in a small, narrow walking place. I step
(11:31):
into it. I tear a ligment in my foot and
it's somehow my fault. He like flips and he's yelling
at you in that moment because you're hurt because of
something he did.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Thinking back on it now, is it because things are
out of order?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
I mean some of it is that control, like obscene
amount of need to control things and to have order
and be like nothing disrupting his day, like a Yellowstone.
My mom trips, Like we're walking on this path, we're
visiting the teetons, We're just because my mom's with us.
Were just literally just walking. We're not hiking or anything.
My mom didn't do any of that, Like we're literally
(12:08):
just walking on like a normal path. She accidentally trips,
falls down a little bit of like a culvert or something,
and she's bleeding from her knee and she's like spraying
her ankle. He just erupts, like verbally abusive, almost physically abusive,
mad at her because she's messed up his day. Honestly,
she spent so much of that vacation in a hotel,
(12:29):
and I thought it was because of her ankle. I
thought it's because she was ninsure. And then it wasn't
till twenty fifteen that I asked her on the phone.
I said, do you remember Jackson Hole? So we talked
about it about how she felt, and she says, your dad.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Run my vacation, and what she mean by that just.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Being an asshole, like being a jerk.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Do you think he really feel bad?
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I mean I totally think he did, because, like I
don't buy the whole like this guy's doesn't have feelings
and doesn't shut down, Like if you talk to people
that have grown up in like verbal and emotional abuse situations. Now,
I wasn't physically or sexually abused, but if you talk
to abuse survivors, we all have that ability when we
were little to start managing things. You know, manage our parents.
(13:17):
You know, you'll talk to kids of like alcoholics. You're
managing things the best that you can. So why I
was aware that, like MoMA was hurt, Dad felt bad.
I also just went along with Dad to go have fun.
So I never really thought anything more other than mom
doesn't really like this stuff and she's hurt. So here
it is twenty years later. You know, Dad's been arrested
(13:39):
for ten years, and there's just that hurt and tightness
and tenseness in my mom's voicing your dad run my vacation.
Now it's really hard with my mom to process everything
that's happened in ass, so I have to be really careful.
So when I was researching, you know, my dad and
my life and trying to figure out what to write
and deal with all of this, I actually literally was
(14:00):
in trauma therapy back in twenty fifteen, again trying to
process all this. So I think my mom probably does
hold some answers, but we don't really go there.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
What do you mean hold some answers like.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Somebody liked my father is rare, But there's other guys
out there, and we need to catch them, and we
need to catch them quicker. One of the reasons I've
been so invested in learning about my dad and his
crime is to get more knowledge on these guys, to
actually show what they really are like, to extend the profiles,
and so we can catch them quicker.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Let's go back a little bit, and do you have
any memories of the BTK killings happening in Wichita before
anyone knew that it was your dad, or anyone really
knew what was going on. You remember there being a
killer somewhere.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
As far as I know, I do not remember ever
hearing the acronym BTK involved in any murders before two
thousand and four. It was the summer of four when
I found out he had come back and communicated it. Now,
you have to remember there were seven murders in the
seventy the Otero family in January seventy four, Then two
months later was Catherine Bright and he attempted to murder
(15:17):
her brother, Kevin Bright, and then he shut down for
a few years. And then seventy seven was Shirley Vyanne,
and then in December of seventy seven with Nancy Fox,
when my mom was pregnant with me for three years.
I never knew any of this going on in the seventies.
So when I'm six then, like I find out the
neighbor lady had gone missing and they thought something bad
(15:39):
had happened to her.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
How'd you find that out?
Speaker 3 (15:42):
I know my parents were talking about it. I'm sure
it was probably on the news, because in the eighties,
like the news was just on It's not like it
is now with kids where you can just get it
on your phone. I know I would have heard it
my parents talking about Missus Hedge missing and they had
a conversation saying that thought it was the boyfriend.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Was that scary as a kid having a neighbor go missing.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yeah, it altered me pretty bad. Missus Hudge was like
an acquaintance to us, Marine Hedge, Like we would walk
by and say hi to her when we were walking
down to my grandparents, like with my mom, or we
would stop and chat. Don't have a clear memory exactly
if my father talking to her, I but I do
remember stopping talking to her with my mom, but more
of it just an acquaintance. Tello. How are you? How
(16:27):
are you doing? You know, talk, you know, maybe about
gardening or something. That she was out in her yard
just like quick you know, I had never been in
her house or anything.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
How did it make you feel processing that somebody that
you knew of in the neighborhood was brutally murdered?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
See, I mean that's the thing. Like when I was six,
and not only did I know she was missing, Like
a police officer came by canvassing the neighborhood and I
was out playing. I was jumping on my red pogo stick.
My mom was there in our driveway, and he interviewed
My mom quickly came assing, you know, have you you've
seen anything? Do you know anything? You know? I remember
vaguely remember this officer talking to my mom, and then
(17:06):
they found her body, and somehow I knew that her
body had been found out in the country, and I
knew she had been strangled. Why does a six year
old know that her neighbor lady's been strangled?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Where do you think the urge to murder an innocent
person comes from.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
It's just it's They're just a means to an end, unfortunately.
I mean that's what he would say. What do you
mean by that, Like I'm saying, when he's calling him
a project, he's dehumanizing him.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Sure, so he doesn't even look at them as people.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
He doesn't. He sees them as tools. It's something to
help him express himself and feel better.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
What do you think that it is that he's feeling
that needs to be fixed so badly?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I think it's it's brokenness. I mean, really, he's taking
out something with his murders. He's he's taking something out
like replace seeing something inadequate in him to feel better
about himself. I don't even know if he knows he's
doing it, like to make himself feel better. There's a
(18:10):
quote like hurt people hurt right, Like pain is like
grief passed on like trauma passed on like generational by generational.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
Like.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Something was wrong with my dad for whatever reasons, and
now he's passing it on to these families. You know,
here's this family in Wichita living their life, trying to
make ends meet, trying, you know, and four of them
are gone like that because something's wrong with my dad.
What is that that's wrong? And then what do we
do about it? And how do we stop it?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Does that add up?
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Though?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Is that who your dad was?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
I would say internally, that's probably who he is at
the core.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
For those who don't know, and only I know so
much about this, what exactly is a night tear for you?
Speaker 3 (18:58):
So they're pretty common with shell It's worse than a nightmare.
It's like there's a physical reaction, you know, like a
nightmare you're just kind of having in your head and
you might remember in the morning, But like a night terror,
I can scream bloody murder. I'm sitting up terrified. I
see things I fight.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
So back when you're six years old, described to me
what those night terrors were when they first started.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
It's always like there's somebody bad in my room there
to kill me. It's not necessarily a face or a person.
It's more of that feeling that somebody's going to.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Murder you, that something is in the room, though it's.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Something very bad is in the room to kill you.
Always And so as a little girl, I didn't I
wasn't able to describe it to that level that I
am now. But I was like sitting up in bed screaming,
and it was always my mom, always my mom that
would come sit by my bed. And so she's trying
to rationalize with somebody that's like freaked out and you're shaking,
Like sometimes I'll be shaking, my heart'll be beating really fast.
(19:57):
I mean, like I even used to wet the best
when I was little. Sometimes, you know, she would say,
it's okay, Carrie, you're safe. No one's here, there's no
one bad in the house. You're safe. Like safe is
sort of like that keyword to anchor me, Like you're safe,
You're okay.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Like even if you weren't, your dad was aware that
you were being affected by hedges.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Death, like he's quoted in twenty sixteen as saying he
was sure it was from there. And I don't think
I even really like connected my night terre starting like
to that. Now, is it more complicated than that? Maybe,
but he was aware and he found it empowering. But
he didn't get me any help.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Taking back to your six year old self, having suppressed
certain details before, your six year old self laying in
your bed at night, fearful of something being in your room,
do you ever think that that could have actually been
your dad in there?
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I mean, our best guess from experts I've talked to
is that very well could have been my dad practicing something,
coming back from something and invernally scaring me, or I mean,
he could even have been in there getting off. We
don't know. I mean, we know I was not sexually abused,
but my dad like masturbated again, like next to Josie
Otero after he strangled her, right, so, and he did
(21:17):
that at least with Nancy Fox. So who is to
say my dad wasn't in my room getting off? We
don't know. I mean literally, when I talk to detectives,
they're like, very possible.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Do you think that you were ever really in danger?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
My dad is quoted in Ramsland's book saying I loved
my family. I loved Paula. He was very very protective
and like if anybody had messed with us, he would
God in their way. I mean, he's quoted as saying
he loved us very much. You know, he was worried
about us. In the seventies, this whole community is erupting
(21:51):
in the sphere after the Otaros, and then in October
of seventy four, he's in his first communication. There's this
fear in this community of the serial killer. As he's
communicating with the police. In the seven he's murdering more people.
My mother even is quoted as saying like she was scared,
and she talked to my dad about it, and he said,
(22:12):
you're fine, don't worry, You're safe, because he knew she
was safe because he's not going to murder her. You know,
she worked at the VA and she would be out
late sometimes with dinner with girlfriends, you know, And he
was working at ADT during the day and then he
was going to WSU for criminal Justice at night. He
was gone a lot, plus doing all his BTK stocking
and whatever. So she was home alone, you know, trying
(22:35):
to raise my brother and me. She was scared, but
he reassured her and told her she was fine. But
even he said that he.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Was worried, almost just subconsciously from himself, but he also
is fully aware that if he's capable of doing this,
then somewhere else out in the world, maybe someone else
is too.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Exactly, and I think he had that keen ability to
read bad people.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
And know like to stake c Do you feel like
he tricked you your whole life?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
No?
Speaker 3 (23:04):
I don't think he was like, oh, I'm gonna trick everybody.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Well, I mean, do you feel like he in any
way conned you?
Speaker 3 (23:11):
You know, it's deeper than lying. I mean, of course
he's lying to my mom when he's saying he's on
a camp out. Sure, but it's betrayal. It's deeper than that.
You know, it's like somebody going in having an affair
or something. But it's deeper than that. It's like every
day betrayal. Like I'm saying, he is so disconnected in
his brain. He accepts himself and he's like, well, you
(23:33):
all were fine with me. Well we didn't know, like, hello,
how do you think someone's going to react. We're all
reacting like normal, same people. We're not going to be
the same with you ever.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Do you ever think that to get to that point
to where he's actually going to commit these crimes, that
he's willing to risk everything, even you guys the family.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I don't think he has that connect all the way there.
He's not thinking about the consequences to our family. It's
also about the fear.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Like he said he felt empowered by my fear, so
like I shared. I shared monster movies with my dad,
like Frgstein, Dracula, Jucklin Hyde. He's really big on Jucklin Hyde,
like he literally is Jacqueline Hyde, you know, Jack the Ripper,
all that stuff. I grew up with that with my dad.
So like in the nineties, like we went and we
saw Seven together. When we were walking out to the car,
(24:32):
my dad wanted to know how did it make me feel?
It wasn't so much what do you think in the
movie or some movie good or bad. It was how
does it make you feel? Because he wanted to know,
like experience what I was feeling scared in there watching
that movie.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Having seen seven, it is a pretty morbid movie. Did
you feel scared watching that?
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
I mean, just like like a scary movie will scare me?
Seen at once? It bothered me enough. I never wanted
to see it again. And then after I found out
with my dad that I'd seen it with him. But
I mean, I literally watched eight millimeter with my dad
at home, or I'm like watching paulp Fiction with the
scenes in the basement, like that seared in my mind
watching that with my dad.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
You had a reaction that I won't see it again
unless I have to. But you know, I get it.
How do you think your dad felt?
Speaker 3 (25:19):
When we're talking about somebody you like my dad, they
have to really push that envelope to feel. It's not
that they can't feel, they just got to push it
in a way that's like gonna cause mayhem and death
to feel. Like he said, it was hard for him
to have a normal sexual relationship because he has to
push that so far to get that release. So my
(25:39):
guess is, when he's asking me, how does it feel
one he wants to know, how does regular fear feil?
How does it feel to be a regular person, be
a woman, and be vulnerable?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Do you feel like a part of why he would
ask you how you felt about that movie is to
see if any of his tendencies were in you.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I don't think he was ever scared. We would grow
up to be. He made sure we towed the line
and didn't even have a speeding ticket, like we had
a cuffs and jar in the kitchen. His three brothers
turned out fine. So if you're gonna do nurturing nature debate,
I mean, they all have the same genetics in the
same home life and they're fine. So what makes one
person turn into this and a monster and other people
not be? He always tried to tow the line, even
(26:23):
though he wasn't for his parents. He didn't want to
be in trouble. He wanted to be a good kid,
like I think he wanted to be a white hat
and he won. He wanted us to turn out better.
He gifted me strength. I mean some of it was
just innately born and some of its mom But I'm
independent and I'm strong and I'm fearless because my dad
raised me like that. I was like the little girl
(26:44):
going after the woof dog when I was two, right,
Like I was fearless. Built that up in me, and
I think he did it because he knew I needed
to be strong and independent because of something like this happened.
I mean, part of it is just his nature to
be that way. And then He just took me along,
and he never questioned weakness, and he never, for as
much as he seems to hate women and take out
this anger on them, he was so protective of me
(27:06):
and built me up to be strong. Now he could
cut into me verbally it hurt me, But most of
the time he was just about, you're gonna carry your weight,
and you're gonna I'm gonna do this, and your brother's
gonna do it, and you're gonna do it. Like I
was jealous. I couldn't go to the boy Scouts with him.
So that's who I was, even though I was struggling
with some mental illness, That's who I was.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
Like.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
There was only a few times I saw my dad cry.
I saw him cry when my cousin Shelley died, when
he came home after my grandpa died. Like the most
almost most despair I saw. We were in the Grand Canyon.
We were on the Tonto Trell. It was day five,
it was very hot. He was miserable because he couldn't
literally go to the bathroom. He's off forever. I'm dying
(27:49):
in the heat. And he comes back and he says, this,
just leave me here to die and he's just so
shut down and so dysfunctional. At that moment, was miserable.
I had been that way on day one. It was
like we had flipped in those five days and had
I was the one that became strong at that point.
It's so hard as a girl or as a kid
to see, even though I was an adult, to see
(28:11):
your dad broke down in that way, to not be
physically strong and to be weak. I never knew my
dad week ever, ever, ever, ever, and so to see
him like broke down and almost crying, like just leave
me here to die, and I'm like, I'm not leaving
you here to die. I'm hot. Let's go find some shade.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
That's when like that power changed, Like that's where I
became strong.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
What he was showing you was sincere though, or did
it just feel that sincere?
Speaker 3 (28:41):
I mean the hard asked tactics will tell you he
was BTK. He didn't give a crap. Well, of course, yeah,
and you got to get over that.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
But they didn't experience what you experienced.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
No, they did not, and they never experienced him like Dennis.
I think he has the full capacity to love, care
pro text, take care of his own and the full
capacity to murder people. And that's what's really terrifying. I
think that's where people do not want to go and
explore because they want to isolate and they want to
put these guys in a box and call them a
(29:13):
monster and say you're just this and all of this
was pretend and a cover and a roost that's a
dad word like, and that they're just this thing. Really,
and now that we've identified you, we've labeled you, we've
filed you, why we're onto the next.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
But honestly, it's because he was all these other things
that he was able to get away with us for
so long.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Exactly, he never had a police record. At the most
he had a ticket. I was with him when he
got a speeding ticket, very much like yes, sir, no, sir, sorry, sir,
won't happen again, sir.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Almost like there was just something like evil inside him
that was more powerful than everything else because he wasn't
able to suppress it enough to not do it at
least not all the time.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
No, oh, not all the time. But like that's one
of the things about him is that he did have
that control, that he could control it most of the time.
Like he wasn't a spree killer, he wasn't out of control.
That's an intense amount of control to be able to
control that amount of energy, loss, desire, whatever you want
to call it, and not always do what he did.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Do you ever think that we're maybe giving it too
much credit and over complicating it ourselves and just at
some point he made a decision to do a bad thing.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Well, he made it. He made this decision over and over.
But it's it's like I said, it's an accumulation of things.
And I think, you know, if you're going to talk
to a psychologist, are going to talk about conduct disorders
and you know, or you're going to talk to profilers
and things. I mean, there's places where these guys overlap
with their tendencies.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Because no one made him do this.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
No, absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
No, he wanted to.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
He wanted to. But what is that in somebody that
wants to do that. Most of us, the majority of us,
have that moral line we won't cross, even if we're
like a lower level criminal or were doing something in
the spur of a moment. There's a huge difference there, Like,
what is it in these guys that has to do
this to get that release, and then what is it
(31:12):
about murder that turns them on?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Were you ever around your dad when the BTK was
mentioned or on the news or the newspaper or in passing?
Was it ever mentioned out loud or in the same
room as you?
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Not me, but my mom and my brother at least
my brother has memories of being in the house. And
oh for when the thirtieth anniversary special ran for the
O taros like it being on and my dad watching it.
But other than that, there isn't. I think that's about it.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
You and your dad had a lot of fun things
in common, like reading the true crime books and Stephen
King and the gardening and just different pastimes. So in
a lot of ways, you guys had similarities. But I
would be curious just for you, how are you different
than your dad? What is the main difference here is?
(32:09):
How is he different?
Speaker 3 (32:11):
I'm goodness, I'm my mom, you know, I mean my
dad had some of that any but he's the passing
as my mom was the optimist. I'm somewhere in the
mill I'm my mom. I'm the person that loves this
person even at their worst, that just wants to be
next to somebody. And you know.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Enjoy their time with them. You know, I'm all love,
I'm all feeling, I'm all processing an emotion. That's what
I am and somehow I was raised by this monster.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
This is part one of a conversation between Carrie Rawson
and Payne Lindsey. Stay tuned for part two, which comes
out next week.
Welcome to this special bonus episode of Monster BTK. Early
in the process of making the show, executive producer Payne
Lindsay got a call from Carrie Rawson, daughter of Dennis Raider,
the BTK Killer. They sat down together for an interview.
What came out of that was a five hour conversation
(00:24):
in Atlanta where they covered everything from her early childhood
to learning about her dad's true identity when she was
an adult. You've heard some of it throughout the podcasts,
but we left a ton on the cutting room floor.
So now I'm pleased to share with you an abbreviated
version of Payne's conversation with Carrie Rawson. I hope you
(00:48):
enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Keeping as simple, introduce yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I'm Carrie Rawson. I'm the daughter of dentist Raider, who's
better known as the BTK Killer, from which talk Kansas.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yes, how does it feel saying that?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Uh, it's been a long process. It's been sixteen years
since his arrest in two thousand and five. It's been
a very long process to be able to even say
BTK out loud, and then to acknowledge like that he
is my dad and I'm his daughter. Most headlines that
involved me are still btk's daughter. But like I'm a
best selling author now I'm a member about my life,
(01:24):
you know, growing up with my father and his arrest
and everything. But I'm still not known as Carrie Rossen.
I'm known probably for eternity as btk's daughter.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
But you're not. You're also your Carrie.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
That was a lot of like my process of healing.
I mean, I was Carrie and he was Dad, and
then he was arrested, and all of a sudden he
was BTK and I lost Carrie. You know, a lot
of my book is about that, losing me and finding
myself again. My husband Darien said in twenty twelve, once
(01:58):
I forgave my dad, I came back to carry. I
was gone for seven years. You know, a lot of
who I am and what makes me me, like the
person sitting across from you, was gone. So when I
let go of some of that stuff, that's when I
started coming back to me. But I really didn't really
(02:18):
start healing, I don't think until I started speaking up
in the media in twenty fourteen. A lot of my
later journey was about coming to terms not only with
who my dad was, how I knew him who he
actually was. This other side I had to learn and
then coming back to terms with who I am in
context of my dad, and then what was I going
(02:40):
to do with it? So, I mean, it's just been
a massive process for me many years.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Where'd you grow up?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So I grew up in Wichita, Kansas. I was born
in June of nineteen seventy eight. We lived in Park City.
It's a small northern suburb of Wichita, so about five
thousand people. I was like a big spread out metro area,
probably about five hundred thousand now. So I lived nine
houses down from my mom's parents, II Leen and Palmer Deets.
(03:09):
So my mom literally moved nine houses down when she
married my dad in May of seventy one, and they
bought this three bedroom ranch that has the zact layout
as my grandparents' house, but it has a much bigger
yard because like my dad loved the garden, so he
planted trees and he built this massive garden in the back.
(03:29):
And then he said, when I was about two, he
had to install a metal fence because before then he
didn't have a fence. But he said, I was like
wandering over to like the neighbors to pether huge dog,
like this wolf like dog, and he was like freaked out,
so he had to start like fencing me in.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
By the time I was like two, were you just
curious or what?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Yeah, I've always just been a go get her, like
total tomboy adventure to go do anything and everything was
my dad. He would like take me out gardening, you know,
I was three or four. He was teaching me about
all the plants, the vegetables, growing seasons, soil. Anything Dad
was doing I wanted to do. Like he loved the outdoors,
(04:14):
so he was cool and let me get muddy. And
my mom hates the outdoors like literally, my mom is
like outside to go like home to car, like church.
Literally she hates the outdoors.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
What kind of garden was this?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Just a you know of like a family garden that
he had plotted out. He even turned my bedroom into
a greenhouse, like I was three or four, and he
set up solder lights, I mean like the big fourlescent
lights and had trays of seed lingks and literally I
couldn't sleep in my room, so I was sleeping like
(04:48):
in the bottom buck of my brother's bunk. Bad my
brother Bride's three years older than me. And like in
my book, I talk about remembering, like my dad taking
these trays of seeds and then putting them under this
light in this attached shed that was right connected to
our house. So I literally remember watching my dad take
care of these seeds and water them. Like he was
(05:11):
obsessed with gardening when I was little, Like he would
throw himself into these things, which you know, later on
we learned he was literally throwing himself into stuff to
distract him from murder. Literally, but he was gardening. And
then later on it was the dog track that was
north of Park City, like late eighties or early nineties,
(05:32):
he literally was laid off from work from ADT was
doing work with the census off and on, we didn't
have much money. Then he was gambling at the dog
track and he was getting he was obsessed about it,
like he was like pulling it out of the Wichita Eagle,
like all the stats and like trying to like figure
out the system. And then later it was stamps, So
(05:54):
like nineties up into when he was arrested, he was
collecting stamps. He was doing first day covers, like you
sign an envelope with your name so he's basically autographing
this envelope and then paying exter to have it stamp
with this first day cover and then sent back to
him and like steal plastic. Now did he think that
those were going to have values someday? Like that's like
(06:18):
those unknown questions like the ego and the narcissistem getting
in there, having all of like his autograph on all
these envelopes, It sounds.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Like there was always some sort of obsession. Let's go
back to just Wichita, like put yourself back there as
a kid. What did it look like?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I mean, which is like your classic Midwestern town unless
you count Kansas City. It's the biggest city in Wichita.
So it's like known for like aviotics. So my grandma
Eileen out out of high school. She worked at Boeing
driving a Cushman cart for the World War two effort.
She literally was a Rosie the riveter. Both my grandpas
(06:57):
served in World War Two. Father was born in Pittsburgh, Kansas,
but then lived his first years in Columbus, Kansas with
my grandma's family. They moved to wich Tom when he
was like around five, so they were living on Seneca
like north central Wichita, about three miles from where I
grew up.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
So your parents met at the church.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
My dad, he was in the Air Force from I
think around sixty six to seventy one, so this is
during Vietnam. He graduated from high school Wichita Heights in
sixty three and then he tried community college for a while.
He's not a very good student. And my grandpa, who
had been a marine in World War Two, told him,
you're going to get drafted. So he's like, I don't
(07:42):
want you to get drafted. I want you to enlist
because if you get drafted, you're going to be stuck
in the army and you're going to be stuck in
the bush. So my dad enlisted in the Air Force
and he ended up he never stepped foot in Vietnam.
Like he traveled to Greece, Turkey, Japan, South Korea. He
brought home all these trinkets in like this Kimano robe
(08:03):
from Japan and like influenced by these cultures. And he
had these photos of like the places he had traveled
in Greece and Turkey. When I was a kid, he
had this big box of mementos and like literally this
like that's how disconnected. He is like, this is Vietnam, right,
So like his two younger brothers, Paul and Bill, both
served in Vietnam. Paul was when the Navy on a
(08:25):
swift boat and Bill was a marine stuck walking the bush.
So like my uncles came home with PTSD now talked
about the war, and my dad is like talking like
about that he was vacationing. So when my dad was
in the Air Force, he did like telephone pole work
and wir ring, so that's kind of stuff he would
(08:48):
incorporate later into his crimes. But he he did a
lot of stuff with wires and climbing telephone poles and
communications and things like that, so he was super handy.
So he comes back in the summer seventh. And my
mom grew up at Christ Lutheran. That's our church, so
she's grown up at Christ Lutheran. It was across from
(09:08):
my parents high school, which Isa Heights. So like my
mom and her two sisters and my dad and his brothers,
they all went to the same high school. My mom
was a freshman there when my dad was a senior.
So she said she never met em.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Your dad went to church every Sunday, so my.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Dad grew up Lutheran, and then when my dad was
overseeing so the Air Force is when his parents switched
to the Lutheran church. My mom had been in since
she was little. It was something they both had been
brought up and it was not something you ever questioned.
Like they both always served. He always was either doing
communion later on assistant minister. It was something you did out.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Of your mom, dad, and brother. Who are you closest to?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Out of my family? Growing up? I was definitely probably
closest to my dad. I was close to my brother.
We did a lot of stuff. But I think looking back,
you know, I probably was closest to my dad.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Why is that?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Just because Like Dad had fun and wanted to do
things and be outside and like things that I ended
up enjoying. Like I said, like I could get dirty
and be a tomboy and we would walk the dog
and we would talk. You know, I could be free
and comfortable with him. You know, he took me fishing
and camping. That was huge for us.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Did he enjoy sharing these things with you?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
It's hard when you're over on this side of only
knowing my dad as who he is in the context
of btk you know or what you know about serial killers.
To think of this guy being a father and normal
and enjoying things, but he needed to be outside. He
could get like uptied and angry and difficult and controlling inside.
(10:47):
I mean you would see it in any sort of
building like church, family homes, anywhere, like he just so Okay.
For an example, it's July of two thousand and three,
two weeks before I'm getting married. He was doing something
in the house like he you know, he did a
lot of home repairs. He was always fixing something or
doing something. He left this open toolbox around the corner
(11:09):
next to our stove in the kitchen. I'm just rounding
the corner. I'm probably walking too fast, like I don't
know for like two decades. He's barking at me to
slow down and not walk so fast. And I literally
step with my right foot into this open toolbox. Now,
he left the toolbox there. He shouldn't have left it there.
It's right in a small, narrow walking place. I step
(11:31):
into it. I tear a ligment in my foot and
it's somehow my fault. He like flips and he's yelling
at you in that moment because you're hurt because of
something he did.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Thinking back on it now, is it because things are
out of order?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
I mean some of it is that control, like obscene
amount of need to control things and to have order
and be like nothing disrupting his day, like a Yellowstone.
My mom trips, Like we're walking on this path, we're
visiting the teetons, We're just because my mom's with us.
Were just literally just walking. We're not hiking or anything.
My mom didn't do any of that, Like we're literally
(12:08):
just walking on like a normal path. She accidentally trips,
falls down a little bit of like a culvert or something,
and she's bleeding from her knee and she's like spraying
her ankle. He just erupts, like verbally abusive, almost physically abusive,
mad at her because she's messed up his day. Honestly,
she spent so much of that vacation in a hotel,
(12:29):
and I thought it was because of her ankle. I
thought it's because she was ninsure. And then it wasn't
till twenty fifteen that I asked her on the phone.
I said, do you remember Jackson Hole? So we talked
about it about how she felt, and she says, your dad.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Run my vacation, and what she mean by that just.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Being an asshole, like being a jerk.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Do you think he really feel bad?
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I mean I totally think he did, because, like I
don't buy the whole like this guy's doesn't have feelings
and doesn't shut down, Like if you talk to people
that have grown up in like verbal and emotional abuse situations. Now,
I wasn't physically or sexually abused, but if you talk
to abuse survivors, we all have that ability when we
were little to start managing things. You know, manage our parents.
(13:17):
You know, you'll talk to kids of like alcoholics. You're
managing things the best that you can. So why I
was aware that, like MoMA was hurt, Dad felt bad.
I also just went along with Dad to go have fun.
So I never really thought anything more other than mom
doesn't really like this stuff and she's hurt. So here
it is twenty years later. You know, Dad's been arrested
(13:39):
for ten years, and there's just that hurt and tightness
and tenseness in my mom's voicing your dad run my vacation.
Now it's really hard with my mom to process everything
that's happened in ass, so I have to be really careful.
So when I was researching, you know, my dad and
my life and trying to figure out what to write
and deal with all of this, I actually literally was
(14:00):
in trauma therapy back in twenty fifteen, again trying to
process all this. So I think my mom probably does
hold some answers, but we don't really go there.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
What do you mean hold some answers like.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Somebody liked my father is rare, But there's other guys
out there, and we need to catch them, and we
need to catch them quicker. One of the reasons I've
been so invested in learning about my dad and his
crime is to get more knowledge on these guys, to
actually show what they really are like, to extend the profiles,
and so we can catch them quicker.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Let's go back a little bit, and do you have
any memories of the BTK killings happening in Wichita before
anyone knew that it was your dad, or anyone really
knew what was going on. You remember there being a
killer somewhere.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
As far as I know, I do not remember ever
hearing the acronym BTK involved in any murders before two
thousand and four. It was the summer of four when
I found out he had come back and communicated it. Now,
you have to remember there were seven murders in the
seventy the Otero family in January seventy four, Then two
months later was Catherine Bright and he attempted to murder
(15:17):
her brother, Kevin Bright, and then he shut down for
a few years. And then seventy seven was Shirley Vyanne,
and then in December of seventy seven with Nancy Fox,
when my mom was pregnant with me for three years.
I never knew any of this going on in the seventies.
So when I'm six then, like I find out the
neighbor lady had gone missing and they thought something bad
(15:39):
had happened to her.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
How'd you find that out?
Speaker 3 (15:42):
I know my parents were talking about it. I'm sure
it was probably on the news, because in the eighties,
like the news was just on It's not like it
is now with kids where you can just get it
on your phone. I know I would have heard it
my parents talking about Missus Hedge missing and they had
a conversation saying that thought it was the boyfriend.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Was that scary as a kid having a neighbor go missing.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yeah, it altered me pretty bad. Missus Hudge was like
an acquaintance to us, Marine Hedge, Like we would walk
by and say hi to her when we were walking
down to my grandparents, like with my mom, or we
would stop and chat. Don't have a clear memory exactly
if my father talking to her, I but I do
remember stopping talking to her with my mom, but more
of it just an acquaintance. Tello. How are you? How
(16:27):
are you doing? You know, talk, you know, maybe about
gardening or something. That she was out in her yard
just like quick you know, I had never been in
her house or anything.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
How did it make you feel processing that somebody that
you knew of in the neighborhood was brutally murdered?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
See, I mean that's the thing. Like when I was six,
and not only did I know she was missing, Like
a police officer came by canvassing the neighborhood and I
was out playing. I was jumping on my red pogo stick.
My mom was there in our driveway, and he interviewed
My mom quickly came assing, you know, have you you've
seen anything? Do you know anything? You know? I remember
vaguely remember this officer talking to my mom, and then
(17:06):
they found her body, and somehow I knew that her
body had been found out in the country, and I
knew she had been strangled. Why does a six year
old know that her neighbor lady's been strangled?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Where do you think the urge to murder an innocent
person comes from.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
It's just it's They're just a means to an end, unfortunately.
I mean that's what he would say. What do you
mean by that, Like I'm saying, when he's calling him
a project, he's dehumanizing him.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Sure, so he doesn't even look at them as people.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
He doesn't. He sees them as tools. It's something to
help him express himself and feel better.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
What do you think that it is that he's feeling
that needs to be fixed so badly?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I think it's it's brokenness. I mean, really, he's taking
out something with his murders. He's he's taking something out
like replace seeing something inadequate in him to feel better
about himself. I don't even know if he knows he's
doing it, like to make himself feel better. There's a
(18:10):
quote like hurt people hurt right, Like pain is like
grief passed on like trauma passed on like generational by generational.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
Like.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Something was wrong with my dad for whatever reasons, and
now he's passing it on to these families. You know,
here's this family in Wichita living their life, trying to
make ends meet, trying, you know, and four of them
are gone like that because something's wrong with my dad.
What is that that's wrong? And then what do we
do about it? And how do we stop it?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Does that add up?
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Though?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Is that who your dad was?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
I would say internally, that's probably who he is at
the core.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
For those who don't know, and only I know so
much about this, what exactly is a night tear for you?
Speaker 3 (18:58):
So they're pretty common with shell It's worse than a nightmare.
It's like there's a physical reaction, you know, like a
nightmare you're just kind of having in your head and
you might remember in the morning, But like a night terror,
I can scream bloody murder. I'm sitting up terrified. I
see things I fight.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
So back when you're six years old, described to me
what those night terrors were when they first started.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
It's always like there's somebody bad in my room there
to kill me. It's not necessarily a face or a person.
It's more of that feeling that somebody's going to.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Murder you, that something is in the room, though it's.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Something very bad is in the room to kill you.
Always And so as a little girl, I didn't I
wasn't able to describe it to that level that I
am now. But I was like sitting up in bed screaming,
and it was always my mom, always my mom that
would come sit by my bed. And so she's trying
to rationalize with somebody that's like freaked out and you're shaking,
Like sometimes I'll be shaking, my heart'll be beating really fast.
(19:57):
I mean, like I even used to wet the best
when I was little. Sometimes, you know, she would say,
it's okay, Carrie, you're safe. No one's here, there's no
one bad in the house. You're safe. Like safe is
sort of like that keyword to anchor me, Like you're safe,
You're okay.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Like even if you weren't, your dad was aware that
you were being affected by hedges.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Death, like he's quoted in twenty sixteen as saying he
was sure it was from there. And I don't think
I even really like connected my night terre starting like
to that. Now, is it more complicated than that? Maybe,
but he was aware and he found it empowering. But
he didn't get me any help.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Taking back to your six year old self, having suppressed
certain details before, your six year old self laying in
your bed at night, fearful of something being in your room,
do you ever think that that could have actually been
your dad in there?
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I mean, our best guess from experts I've talked to
is that very well could have been my dad practicing something,
coming back from something and invernally scaring me, or I mean,
he could even have been in there getting off. We
don't know. I mean, we know I was not sexually abused,
but my dad like masturbated again, like next to Josie
Otero after he strangled her, right, so, and he did
(21:17):
that at least with Nancy Fox. So who is to
say my dad wasn't in my room getting off? We
don't know. I mean literally, when I talk to detectives,
they're like, very possible.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Do you think that you were ever really in danger?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
My dad is quoted in Ramsland's book saying I loved
my family. I loved Paula. He was very very protective
and like if anybody had messed with us, he would
God in their way. I mean, he's quoted as saying
he loved us very much. You know, he was worried
about us. In the seventies, this whole community is erupting
(21:51):
in the sphere after the Otaros, and then in October
of seventy four, he's in his first communication. There's this
fear in this community of the serial killer. As he's
communicating with the police. In the seven he's murdering more people.
My mother even is quoted as saying like she was scared,
and she talked to my dad about it, and he said,
(22:12):
you're fine, don't worry, You're safe, because he knew she
was safe because he's not going to murder her. You know,
she worked at the VA and she would be out
late sometimes with dinner with girlfriends, you know, And he
was working at ADT during the day and then he
was going to WSU for criminal Justice at night. He
was gone a lot, plus doing all his BTK stocking
and whatever. So she was home alone, you know, trying
(22:35):
to raise my brother and me. She was scared, but
he reassured her and told her she was fine. But
even he said that he.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Was worried, almost just subconsciously from himself, but he also
is fully aware that if he's capable of doing this,
then somewhere else out in the world, maybe someone else
is too.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Exactly, and I think he had that keen ability to
read bad people.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
And know like to stake c Do you feel like
he tricked you your whole life?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
No?
Speaker 3 (23:04):
I don't think he was like, oh, I'm gonna trick everybody.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Well, I mean, do you feel like he in any
way conned you?
Speaker 3 (23:11):
You know, it's deeper than lying. I mean, of course
he's lying to my mom when he's saying he's on
a camp out. Sure, but it's betrayal. It's deeper than that.
You know, it's like somebody going in having an affair
or something. But it's deeper than that. It's like every
day betrayal. Like I'm saying, he is so disconnected in
his brain. He accepts himself and he's like, well, you
(23:33):
all were fine with me. Well we didn't know, like, hello,
how do you think someone's going to react. We're all
reacting like normal, same people. We're not going to be
the same with you ever.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Do you ever think that to get to that point
to where he's actually going to commit these crimes, that
he's willing to risk everything, even you guys the family.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I don't think he has that connect all the way there.
He's not thinking about the consequences to our family. It's
also about the fear.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Like he said he felt empowered by my fear, so
like I shared. I shared monster movies with my dad,
like Frgstein, Dracula, Jucklin Hyde. He's really big on Jucklin Hyde,
like he literally is Jacqueline Hyde, you know, Jack the Ripper,
all that stuff. I grew up with that with my dad.
So like in the nineties, like we went and we
saw Seven together. When we were walking out to the car,
(24:32):
my dad wanted to know how did it make me feel?
It wasn't so much what do you think in the
movie or some movie good or bad. It was how
does it make you feel? Because he wanted to know,
like experience what I was feeling scared in there watching
that movie.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Having seen seven, it is a pretty morbid movie. Did
you feel scared watching that?
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
I mean, just like like a scary movie will scare me?
Seen at once? It bothered me enough. I never wanted
to see it again. And then after I found out
with my dad that I'd seen it with him. But
I mean, I literally watched eight millimeter with my dad
at home, or I'm like watching paulp Fiction with the
scenes in the basement, like that seared in my mind
watching that with my dad.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
You had a reaction that I won't see it again
unless I have to. But you know, I get it.
How do you think your dad felt?
Speaker 3 (25:19):
When we're talking about somebody you like my dad, they
have to really push that envelope to feel. It's not
that they can't feel, they just got to push it
in a way that's like gonna cause mayhem and death
to feel. Like he said, it was hard for him
to have a normal sexual relationship because he has to
push that so far to get that release. So my
(25:39):
guess is, when he's asking me, how does it feel
one he wants to know, how does regular fear feil?
How does it feel to be a regular person, be
a woman, and be vulnerable?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Do you feel like a part of why he would
ask you how you felt about that movie is to
see if any of his tendencies were in you.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I don't think he was ever scared. We would grow
up to be. He made sure we towed the line
and didn't even have a speeding ticket, like we had
a cuffs and jar in the kitchen. His three brothers
turned out fine. So if you're gonna do nurturing nature debate,
I mean, they all have the same genetics in the
same home life and they're fine. So what makes one
person turn into this and a monster and other people
not be? He always tried to tow the line, even
(26:23):
though he wasn't for his parents. He didn't want to
be in trouble. He wanted to be a good kid,
like I think he wanted to be a white hat
and he won. He wanted us to turn out better.
He gifted me strength. I mean some of it was
just innately born and some of its mom But I'm
independent and I'm strong and I'm fearless because my dad
raised me like that. I was like the little girl
(26:44):
going after the woof dog when I was two, right,
Like I was fearless. Built that up in me, and
I think he did it because he knew I needed
to be strong and independent because of something like this happened.
I mean, part of it is just his nature to
be that way. And then He just took me along,
and he never questioned weakness, and he never, for as
much as he seems to hate women and take out
this anger on them, he was so protective of me
(27:06):
and built me up to be strong. Now he could
cut into me verbally it hurt me, But most of
the time he was just about, you're gonna carry your weight,
and you're gonna I'm gonna do this, and your brother's
gonna do it, and you're gonna do it. Like I
was jealous. I couldn't go to the boy Scouts with him.
So that's who I was, even though I was struggling
with some mental illness, That's who I was.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
Like.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
There was only a few times I saw my dad cry.
I saw him cry when my cousin Shelley died, when
he came home after my grandpa died. Like the most
almost most despair I saw. We were in the Grand Canyon.
We were on the Tonto Trell. It was day five,
it was very hot. He was miserable because he couldn't
literally go to the bathroom. He's off forever. I'm dying
(27:49):
in the heat. And he comes back and he says, this,
just leave me here to die and he's just so
shut down and so dysfunctional. At that moment, was miserable.
I had been that way on day one. It was
like we had flipped in those five days and had
I was the one that became strong at that point.
It's so hard as a girl or as a kid
to see, even though I was an adult, to see
(28:11):
your dad broke down in that way, to not be
physically strong and to be weak. I never knew my
dad week ever, ever, ever, ever, and so to see
him like broke down and almost crying, like just leave
me here to die, and I'm like, I'm not leaving
you here to die. I'm hot. Let's go find some shade.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
That's when like that power changed, Like that's where I
became strong.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
What he was showing you was sincere though, or did
it just feel that sincere?
Speaker 3 (28:41):
I mean the hard asked tactics will tell you he
was BTK. He didn't give a crap. Well, of course, yeah,
and you got to get over that.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
But they didn't experience what you experienced.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
No, they did not, and they never experienced him like Dennis.
I think he has the full capacity to love, care
pro text, take care of his own and the full
capacity to murder people. And that's what's really terrifying. I
think that's where people do not want to go and
explore because they want to isolate and they want to
put these guys in a box and call them a
(29:13):
monster and say you're just this and all of this
was pretend and a cover and a roost that's a
dad word like, and that they're just this thing. Really,
and now that we've identified you, we've labeled you, we've
filed you, why we're onto the next.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
But honestly, it's because he was all these other things
that he was able to get away with us for
so long.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Exactly, he never had a police record. At the most
he had a ticket. I was with him when he
got a speeding ticket, very much like yes, sir, no, sir, sorry, sir,
won't happen again, sir.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Almost like there was just something like evil inside him
that was more powerful than everything else because he wasn't
able to suppress it enough to not do it at
least not all the time.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
No, oh, not all the time. But like that's one
of the things about him is that he did have
that control, that he could control it most of the time.
Like he wasn't a spree killer, he wasn't out of control.
That's an intense amount of control to be able to
control that amount of energy, loss, desire, whatever you want
to call it, and not always do what he did.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Do you ever think that we're maybe giving it too
much credit and over complicating it ourselves and just at
some point he made a decision to do a bad thing.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Well, he made it. He made this decision over and over.
But it's it's like I said, it's an accumulation of things.
And I think, you know, if you're going to talk
to a psychologist, are going to talk about conduct disorders
and you know, or you're going to talk to profilers
and things. I mean, there's places where these guys overlap
with their tendencies.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Because no one made him do this.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
No, absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
No, he wanted to.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
He wanted to. But what is that in somebody that
wants to do that. Most of us, the majority of us,
have that moral line we won't cross, even if we're
like a lower level criminal or were doing something in
the spur of a moment. There's a huge difference there, Like,
what is it in these guys that has to do
this to get that release, and then what is it
(31:12):
about murder that turns them on?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Were you ever around your dad when the BTK was
mentioned or on the news or the newspaper or in passing?
Was it ever mentioned out loud or in the same
room as you?
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Not me, but my mom and my brother at least
my brother has memories of being in the house. And
oh for when the thirtieth anniversary special ran for the
O taros like it being on and my dad watching it.
But other than that, there isn't. I think that's about it.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
You and your dad had a lot of fun things
in common, like reading the true crime books and Stephen
King and the gardening and just different pastimes. So in
a lot of ways, you guys had similarities. But I
would be curious just for you, how are you different
than your dad? What is the main difference here is?
(32:09):
How is he different?
Speaker 3 (32:11):
I'm goodness, I'm my mom, you know, I mean my
dad had some of that any but he's the passing
as my mom was the optimist. I'm somewhere in the
mill I'm my mom. I'm the person that loves this
person even at their worst, that just wants to be
next to somebody. And you know.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Enjoy their time with them. You know, I'm all love,
I'm all feeling, I'm all processing an emotion. That's what
I am and somehow I was raised by this monster.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
This is part one of a conversation between Carrie Rawson
and Payne Lindsey. Stay tuned for part two, which comes
out next week.
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