November 17, 2025 • 39 mins
Inside Rex Heuermann’s alleged “planning document,” Josh finds a chilling blueprint for murder. Through interviews with Rex's childhood friend and expert insight, this episode explores how childhood trauma and an obsession with serial-killer lore may have shaped a meticulous predator who learned and evolved. Could this mean the victim count is far higher than we imagined?
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
New episodes are released weekly absolutely free, but you can
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(00:27):
Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer. The views and opinions
expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals
participating in the podcast and do not reflect those of
Tenderfoot TV or iHeartMedia. This podcast contains subject matter which
may not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
In this episode, we'll be talking about these victims in
very graphic terms. These details are crucial for proving the
mistakes and missed opportunities could have led to the perpetrators
capture sooner. These individuals deserve to be remembered not by
the details of their deaths, but by the fullness of
their lives. They are Shannon Gilbert, Marine, Brainerd Barnes, Megan Waterman,
(01:13):
Melissa Bartholomi, amberln Costello, Jessica Taylor, Valerie mac Karen Viergata,
Asian do Soandra Castilla, Tanya Denise Jackson and Tatiana Marie Dykes.
Considering everything we've learned about Rex human so far, combined
(01:37):
with that hulking presence and dead stare, it would be
all too easy to make that leap from man to
monster without asking one of the most important questions of
them all, why, Because the why is just as fundamental
to the crime or the criminal as his DNA. In fact,
they both stem from the same place, a deep inside ourselves,
(02:02):
those unique individual markers that define the essence of who
we are. Because when it comes to serial murder, it
shouldn't just be about solving the crime, but stopping the
crime before it starts.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I met Rex when I was in second grade. I
grew up in mass People talk about maybe three or
four blocks from Rex's house. I'm talking mid seventies and
early eighties. We played on the same block. It was
a very small but close knit town. Everybody knew everybody's business.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I recently spoke with John Parisi, a native Long Islander
who grew up with Rex all the way through high school.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Rex was always subliminal. He was an introvert. He was
always around, but he was always in a background, always there,
but not there. He really didn't speak too much. My
mother used to say, watch out for the quiet ones Well.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
John describes Rex as a teenager who lived in the shadows.
His interactions with girls revealed a different side.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I believe that there was a lot of red flags
early on. For example, when Rex was in high school,
he would leave love letters and girls lockers. He would
break into their lockers and steal clothes.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So he would go in and try and grab things
from girls that he liked or maybe had been rejected from.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Correct jackets, certain things. See if you ask me girl out,
if she says no, she'll say, oh, I'm dating somebody,
or I'm flat of it. But thank you, but no,
thank you. That wasn't good enough. In other words, he
internalized it.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
And then there was Jones Beach. John mentioned going to
Jones Beach back in high school, which was intriguing considering
we learned early on that Rex had worked at Jones Beach.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Well, we used to hang out at Jones Beach Field four.
That was the place to go back then. I miss
it to this day.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Did you ever know him when he was working at
Jones Beach?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Dad was later on in high school when he was older, he.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Had a fascination with the beach, the fascination with the
beach that would turn into the perfect job and then
something far darker.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
The alleged serial killers spent about four summers in the
nineteen eighties working at Jones Beach.
Speaker 6 (04:35):
Prosecutors say Huerman worked at Jones Beach when he was
in his twenties.
Speaker 7 (04:39):
Part of the work entailed going from field to field
to ensure beachgoers were off the property once the beach
was closed, a role that made the defendant extremely familiar
with Ocean Parkway at night.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Just six days after our interview with John Parisi, who
was revealed that employees at Jones Beach had made a
haunting discovery.
Speaker 8 (05:00):
Brand new Developments any Gylgo Beach homicide investigations.
Speaker 9 (05:04):
Detectives visited Jones Beach after discovering disturbing evidence near where
suspect Rex Huerman once worked. Workers unearthed a cachet of
weather beaten purses and girls clothing buried in the sand
just outside the East bathhouse.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Could these buried clothes be the same ones Rex stole
from girls' lockers four decades ago, clothes that were said
to include mini skirts, shorts, and blouses. Some with ripped
and torn buttons or considering workers also found a bloody glove,
something more.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
And if a cachet of trophies can.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Remain hidden in the sand for forty years, then what
else could still be out there buried on the beaches.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Of Long Island.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I'm Josh Zemon, and this is monster hunting the Long
Island serial killer.
Speaker 6 (06:27):
Prosecutors in the Gilgo Beach murder case have revealed new evidence.
It comes as suspected serial killer Rex Huerman remains behind
bars without bail, Local state, and federal authorities outlining today
years of quiet evidence collection against Schureman leading to an
indictment reading like a movie thriller.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
For those of us who have been following the list case,
who were starred answers by a police department intent on
hiding the truth, the indictments released by the DA's office
read light chapters in a detective novel, each court document
revealing more pieces to a puzzle we've been trying to
solve for years. Reading between the lines, they were also
(07:08):
signaling to those of us scrutinizing their every move that
this time there would be no mistake. Although some might
contend it was actually rex Huerman himself, who gave them
all the proof they needed.
Speaker 7 (07:21):
Prosecutors say they've scoured devices from Huerman's home.
Speaker 9 (07:24):
And office, and among that evidence several hard drives and.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
About twenty five hundred pages of documents and photographs.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Let's consider for a moment the psychological thriller seven, in
which the killer remains completely analog and therefore anonymous, hence
his name John Doe, as he writes down every sadistic
detail of his crimes by hand, the marble notebooks lining
his bookshelves being his only paper trail.
Speaker 10 (07:53):
There are two thousand notebooks on these shelves, and each
notebook contains on top two hundred and fifty.
Speaker 11 (07:58):
Pages scat anything about the killings.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
What sick, ridiculous puppets we are, and what a gross
little stage we dance on?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
What fun we have?
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Not knowing that we are nothing?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
We are not foot was intended.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
But that's fiction, not reality. The real world is far.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Too complicated to intertwined, and try as we might to
hide it, the trail of our secrets will never disappear,
which brings us to the paradox of rex Hureman, a
man who went to extraordinary lengths to avoid detection, counting
surveillance cameras along a highway, using Burner's cell phones and
(08:39):
fake email addresses, utilizing software to erase digital files. Yet
at the same time he was a pack rat who
held onto hundreds of electronic devices, even an old pompilot
from two thousand and three which revealed his wife's vacation
dates in his gun club activities the week Jessica Taylor
(08:59):
was killed, and the evidence went on and on.
Speaker 10 (09:04):
Investigator seized three hundred and fifty electronic devices from Huerman's home,
including his significant collection of torture pornography.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Including Burner phones.
Speaker 7 (09:14):
They say he used to contact sex workers as recently
as last year, eight terabytes of data with thousands of
photos on four hard drives.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
But beyond the digital evidence he refused to throw away,
there was also a compelling amount of physical evidence.
Speaker 12 (09:30):
Investigators alleged Huberman kept souvenirs. Authorready say a search warrant
of his home in Long Island and Manhattan office uncovered
multiple newspaper clippings about the murders.
Speaker 13 (09:41):
Among the items were a two thousand and three New
York Post article titled serial killer eyed in Sleigh nineteen
ninety three News Day article headlined body is covered in woods.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
The Yellow New York Post article from two thousand and
three found in Humerman's bedroom detailed the murder of Valerie
mac and Jessica Taylor, while the nineteen ninety three Newsday
article found down in the basement in the safe reference
Sondra Castilla. But it was DNA that would create the
ultimate trifecta.
Speaker 14 (10:14):
Hairs found on Meggae Waterman's body and the burlap bindings
match Rex Huerman. A hare found on a belt used
to bind Barnes matches the DNA profile of Huerman's life
Aza Ellerup, and a hair found on Amber Costello's body
matches Huerman's daughter Victoria.
Speaker 12 (10:30):
Investigators say DNA analysis linked hair found near Max's left
wrist to Huerman's wife and daughter.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
While Rex was seemingly meticulous in his attempts to evade
capture DNA evidence, his own hairs, those of his wife Asa,
and his daughter Victoria were found on all the victims.
Ace Allarup was Rex's second wife. They married in nineteen
ninety six, and together they raised Ace's special needs son, Christopher,
(10:59):
aged thirty five, from a previous marriage, and their own
daughter Victoria, aged twenty eight, who worked at her father's
architecture firm. Yet, in the days after Human's arrest, many
began to question how could his wife and child not
know they were living with a cereal or did they
now and were somehow involved.
Speaker 8 (11:20):
In a case like Rex Huerman's. Sadly, there are other
people whose lives are ruined. Rex had a family, wife, kids,
who did not invite any of this.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
You mean to tell me you married couple for twenty
seven years doesn't know what's going on downstairs.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Despite Outlandish's claims suggesting that Asa and her children were
somehow complicit, it's far more likely that they had been
groomed for decades by a master manipulator. The family's attorney
theorizes Asa has been experiencing Stockholm syndrome. Court documents also
outlined another disturbing detail of Rex's double life, the planning
(12:00):
of his murders around his family's trips out of town.
Speaker 5 (12:04):
The DA also saying that at the time that Maureen
Brainerd Barnes went missing, Chureman's wife and kids were in
Atlantic City.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
We learned of a.
Speaker 8 (12:13):
Date book showing his wife out of town. During Jessica
Taylor's disappearance in two thousand and three.
Speaker 15 (12:19):
There is absolutely no evidence that anyone acted with the defendant,
much less his family.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
The DA's office contends beyond a doubt that Rex's wife
and children were not involved in any of his crimes,
and they've gone a great lengths to prove they were
out of town during every murder. The only murder where
they were not away was out of Valerie Mack in
two thousand, which leads to the unsettling question where did
Rex commit her murder and could reveal other victims of
(12:49):
the Long Island serial killer?
Speaker 4 (12:52):
The hunter is learning every kill do he take something
away from it?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And then there was the issue that had divided Suffolk
County police and criminologists alike, that being the issue of
one Killer verse two, as in why had list dismembered
some victims.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
While others were found intact?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
It seems the clue to unraveling the mystery may be
buried in one of the most disturbing documents ever created
by a killer, A document human believed he had erased
until it was recovered by computer forensics. A blueprint carefully
crafted by an architect that detailed not just how to
commit murder, but how to get away with it?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
For years.
Speaker 16 (13:35):
The task force discovered a Microsoft word document. This is
a planning document and it was utilized by Uromin to
methadically blueprint and plan out his skills with excruciating detail.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Which brings us back to June six, twenty twenty four,
and to that live stream with detectives Joe jack Alone
and David Sarney. As the Suffolk County DA released Turemann's
planning document to the public.
Speaker 17 (14:02):
In twenty twenty three, the giggl task Force sees the
hord drive from human residents. The task force found the
Microsoft word document be planning documents.
Speaker 13 (14:11):
He's already listing problems, fingerprints, DNA, he already knew about
it back then.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
He's knowing about police stock, dealing with his truck. If
it gets stuck, what.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Do you do?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
But one of the things that struck us and frankly
everyone else was a number of references to a book
Huerman had researched and studied. The book he used to
plan these murders. Wow, folks, he's reading Mindhunter by John Douglas.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
He's researching.
Speaker 17 (14:38):
He never thought that serial killers are reading and researching
it became perfected.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
He perfected his craft.
Speaker 17 (14:45):
This is a guy perfecting this even this is absolutely insane.
Speaker 15 (14:50):
Misleader misleaders, even too he put misleaders.
Speaker 18 (14:53):
What could misleader the investigations problems?
Speaker 15 (14:56):
We allege that the defendant was looking at mind Hunter,
which was written by a FBI serial killer analyst, not
to gain insight into the mind of a serial killer.
He was looking to gain insight into how it is
that investigators capture serial killers.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
So as Wrex using Mindhunter and the expertise of the
Behavioral Analysis Unit to evade capture, employing forensic countermeasures such
as just memboring his victims not only to prevent their identification,
but scattering their remains in Nassau County to exploit the
territorialism of Suffolk County to add another layer of confusion
(15:37):
to the investigation. And what about misleaders? Was he changing
his MO to suggest more than one killer?
Speaker 5 (15:45):
MO is malleable? It changes over time because of fenders,
especially guys like Heyerman, as we know from the planning document,
learn to be better. They learn when they make a mistake,
and they don't make that mistake again.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Delving further into humans, shifting m and his Mindhunter connection.
I spoke with Mark Saffrick, a former profiler for the
FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit who trained under the legendary John Douglas,
author of Mindhunter.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
Mind Hunter provides some interesting things to think about. For instance, Castillo,
the first victim, is found relatively quickly intact, so that
was probably disturbing to him that she's found quickly. In
order to prevent them from being found and prevent them
from being identified, he starts to engage in dismemberment. Remember
(16:44):
also that Joel Rifkin is in the same area that
Heyerman is in, and he's in the years immediately proceeding
when Rex is acting out.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Between nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety three, Joel Rifkin
dismembered seventeen victims, typically sex workers he picked up in
Manhattan before scattering the remains across.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
New York and New Jersey.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Rifkin lived in East Meadow, just ten miles from Rex's
home in Massapuga Park. Rifkin is also caught on June
twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three. Just five months later, on
November twentieth, Sanders remains are discovered.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
Rifkin confessedival he's about killing seventeen prostitutes in New York
State in the last two years.
Speaker 10 (17:33):
To be able to corroborate what he has told us
means that we're going to have to analyze all of
the older case files from any police department that we
think might be involved.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
He had to know about Rifkin because he'd spent his
whole life in massapequ Well. So he clearly aware of
Rifkin and what Rifkin was doing in terms of dismembering
the victims and spreading those body parts to different counties
to confuse law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
If it's anyone who knows Rifkin, it would be Mark Saffric,
who sat down with him for lengthy interviews during his
time at the Behavioral Analysis Unit. As for Rex Chuerman,
his alleged behavior supports Saffric's assessment. After Santa Caristilla had
been found, the killer's next four victims had all been
dismembered and the remains scattered between Suffolk and Nassau counties.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
I think that he got that idea from reading the book.
If you go into Douglas's book, Douglas interviewed ed Kemper
Kemper is another guy who dismembered victims and then put
their body parts in different counties to confuse law enforcement,
which it did. I think Hoyerman would have read and
he would have thought, Okay, you know this makes sense.
Speaker 10 (18:48):
Kemper told Pueblo police that he had previously killed six
college girls in the Santa Cruz area.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
He was kind of an odd man. He didn't say much.
He seemed like kind of a mama's boy.
Speaker 19 (19:02):
Ed.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Kemper was a brutal and statistic killer convicted of dismembering
seven women and one girl in the early nineteen seventies,
one victim being his own mother. But his conversations with
profilers John Douglas and Robert Wrestler, fictionalized in David Fincher's
series Mindhunter, also reveal a killer who is disturbingly self aware.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
People who hunt other people for a vocation.
Speaker 9 (19:28):
All we want to talk about is what it's like
shit that went down, entire fucked upness of it.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Right, Sure, Well, it's hard work physically and mentally.
Speaker 15 (19:40):
I don't think people realize you need to vent.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
The Kemper Hureman connection is kind of interesting, right, I.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
Think it's interesting because it's in the book, and if
you're reading about Ed Kemper, he's also a very intelligent guy.
He thought about the process. Also, you Knowman's a big guy,
he's kind of like this ogre right, and Kemper was
a big guy, right, So they both have to know
whether my size is going to be intimidating to the
(20:11):
women that I'm trying to connect with. So that's why
I think there's that connection.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
As for changing Mos, Saffik believes Huerman stopped dismembering because
he felt he didn't have to because he had been
so active for so many years and still hadn't been caught.
As for Mindhunter, he believes Hureman wasn't trying to learn
from profilers as much as he was trying to learn
from those serial killers, the ones he had a connection
(20:38):
with Rifkin because of proximity and Kemper because of his size,
trying to learn from both how to not get caught.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
He had two role models for that. He had Joel
Riffkin in terms of how long Rifkin was able to
get away with the murders that he did, and then Kemper.
I think for him it impacts him Kemper was like six',
nine like three hundred, Pounds so he did these dry
runs to see what the reaction. Was are they not
going to go with? You because of the way you.
(21:09):
Look it would not surprise me That heyerman would have
done something, similar like made an appointment to meet. Somebody
SO i don't think That castillo was probably his first.
Victim he likely had others because again he's, thirty, right.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
So you think he has killed Before Sondra, CASTILLO i don't.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
KNOW i think that's difficult to. Say could there be somebody?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Earlier?
Speaker 5 (21:33):
Absolutely DO i always think that we identify every serial killer's. Victims.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
No, inevitably any attempt to understand serial murder to ask
why leads back to the age old debate of nature
Versus and while scientific advances have shown genetic predispositions to
(22:05):
violence what the press is called the serial killer, gene
there's still no such marker for understanding premeditated, murder nor
the rare type of cereal known as a sexual. Sadist,
hence why we need to go back to the, beginning
to a Small Long island town in the nineteen seventies
to uncover the story of how a tormented boy transformed
(22:29):
into a so called suburban.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Monster. Again Here's John, Parisi rex's childhood.
Speaker 19 (22:34):
Friend, well when we were growing up and we played
on the, block we would all take turns and Host
in other, Words monday will be a teachs, House wednesday
will be A joe's.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
House and he was the only kid that never hosted.
ANYTHING i had people.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Over in that close knit. Community it was the hero
and home that stood.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Apart Despite rex's father being successful aerospace, engineer Their humoran
home was, uninviting dilapidated and, dark with peeling paint and broken, panels,
indicative you might, say Of rex's, proclusive domineering.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
Father tell me About rex's.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Dad rectioner's. Father he was, scary six foot, five three hundred,
pounds very, intense very Angry German.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Man he was very.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Abusive we were scared For, rex, like, oh my, goodness
even to get.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Killed how did his father?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Die his father died of an alcohol related. SICKNESS i
was told there was hush, hush there wasn't much said about.
Speaker 19 (23:48):
It but he was only.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Thirteen that's, tough you, know that's tough for. Anybody. LISTEN
i wanted to give the other side of. This my
heart goes out to the young girls and their. Families
i'm not trying to make any excuses for what he.
DID i have a master's in mental health and substance.
ABUSE i believe in improving the human condition at the
(24:12):
end of the, day that's what it's all.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
About As rex grew older and, larger he became an
increasingly visible, target, paradoxically his imposing size making him more
of a victim and not.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Less when he was in like fifth or sixth, grade
he was like five, eight five. Nine they picked on that.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Kid they were.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Unforgiving the kids used to ambush, him and you couldn't
beat him one or a, month so three or four
kids would jump. Him and then when he got to
like junior high, school then they started, realizing oh my,
god he's gonna kill. Me he was almost six foot,
four two hundred and eighty pounds being.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Excluded it takes as, toll it really, does and that's
what happened To.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Rex we always knew That rex was bullied in, school
based upon newspaper, reports but what we didn't realize was
the exact nature of that bullying and which experiences would
prove psychologically damaging.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Sixteen year old girls could be. CRUEL i, mean if
they don't like. You then and again he was his
own worst. Enemy he would ask girls out and they
would laugh in his, face and we'd all have been
rejected whatever.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
Reason to.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Him that rejection was, devastating especially how it was. Done
you ever hear the expression if you kick the dog enough,
times the dog doesn't get up. Anymore the exactly what
happened to. Him, psychologically he was. Done he was. Toast
by the time he got to ten to eleventh, grade
(25:50):
any sense of normalcy was, gone completely.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Gone Rex is bullying isn't unique among serial. Killers in,
fact many of the killers profiled in books Like mindhunter
share this common threat of childhood humiliation and social, rejection
Including rex's alleged role Model Joel. Rifkin it's very interesting
because we had always thought that there was a lot
(26:17):
of bullying going, on and it's very. Common Joel, rifkin
Another Long island serial, killer right. Bullied but when you
said that he had been bullied by, women a light
bulb went.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Off, yeah they would be mean to, him and his
hatred of women manifested. Himself you, know knowing WHAT i, Know,
now he had issues with his. Mother the father was
very abusive and the mother didn't protect her. Son so
that was the beginning of his hatred for. Women and
(26:52):
he's a. Psychopath you didn't see those girls as human,
beings you saw them as. Objects all of this collectively
manifested himself and Made rex who he. Became we all Created.
Rex that includes his, family that includes the, bullyingesschool that
(27:16):
includes not being. Accepted we all created. Him, yes if
we had death penalty and he's proven, responsible he should
got a lethal. Injection so we all got to look
in the.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Mirror If John paresi's view Of rex human seems overly,
sympathetic it's BECAUSE i later learned that he too had been.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
Bullied, yeah we both.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Agreed while many have been relentlessly bullied or have had
abuse of, fathers most don't go on to become The
Long island serial. Killer according to clinical psychologist Doctor Joni,
johnson it's only the rarest of breeds that crosses that
line into true. Darkness in your clinical, assessment what type
(28:06):
of individual are we dealing with?
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Here there's a.
Speaker 11 (28:09):
Couple of different terms you can, use but he's basically
a sexually sadistic serial. Killer he's actually the worst nightmare of.
Anybody he is somebody who doesn't just hurt. People it's
the pain and the fear and the domination that is
the turn on for. Him if you just look at
(28:30):
the pornography that he, consumed that was really what turned him.
On that, sadism which is very very different from somebody
who's into Medsm bdsma's the consent that is a turn
on with sexually motivated serial. Killers it's the lack of
consent and is the turn, on.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Right, Right but how does somebody become a sexual? Sadist
what creates? That it seems so.
Speaker 11 (28:56):
Foreign it is, foreign AND i have thought about. THIS
i cannot tell you the number of TIMES i frought
about it is oftentimes it starts in. Childhood you have
a predisposition of a kid who is not very empathetic,
naturally so it has some kind of. Predisposition but then
they have these pure interactions that are. Humiligating and we
know That Rex human got bullied horribly again high, school
(29:18):
so this anger starts building. Up if you have over controlling,
parents then oftentimes the kid learns to suppress their. Emotions
so fantasy is a very common escape for. Children, right
this is taking a different. Form those fantasies are, angry they're.
Resentful and then sometimes what, HAPPENS i think really is
a tipping point for Sexual, saydanism is that these fantasies
(29:39):
starts continuing along with puberty as he's developing this interest in.
Sex he's got all these fantasies and they start colliding a.
Little they start going on that rabbit hole and they
encounter violent crynography and it becomes more and more.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Consuming but there's got to be something In rex's personality
that takes to the next.
Speaker 11 (30:00):
Level typically what happens is there some life event that
happens that moves that person from fantasizing about, it thinking about,
it to planning.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
It but it's also a lack of.
Speaker 11 (30:14):
Empathy, right there was something a little bit, missing a
little bit off that he's kind of born that way
to some. Extent so, yes there is typically always this
kind of predisposition meets trauma meets situation and that's where
you get the perfect. Storm but if his life trajectory
had gone, differently you, know he wouldn't have ended up
(30:37):
where he potentially is.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Now there is a famous story About Joe rifkin saying
that he walked into a library wanting to know why
he felt the things that he, felt and on one
shelf was the psychology, book and on the other shelf
was a book About Gary, ridgeway The Green River. Killer
and this was a moment in his. Life it could
(31:00):
have gone either, way and he picked up the book
About Gary.
Speaker 11 (31:03):
Ridgeway and once that, happens whether they're saying it to
themselves or, not they've made a. Decision i'm going to do.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
It in that endless debate about nature versus, nurture there's
a famous saying genetics loads the, gun but environment pulls the.
Trigger but when it comes to the case of cerial
murder and To, lisk when all that planning turns into something,
more it's the hunter's, decision and the hunter's decision alone
(31:33):
to pull the, trigger revealing what may be the ultimate
paradox of the alleged rex. Hureman for a man who's
so seemingly large and so, strong it's shocking how small
and how weak he truly, is too weak to overcome
the trauma inflicted upon. Him he chose instead to pass
(31:56):
that trauma out of so many. Others now is how
many others.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
Do you believe that he's killed? Again after Amberlim, Costello.
Speaker 11 (32:07):
It's hard for me to imagine that he is. Not
The fact that law enforcement acted when they did because
he was actively solictening and starting to go that path
again is very concerning to. Me, again if you're thinking
of sexual, sadism where the primary arousal is the infliction
of pain and, suffering then that would hypothetically open a
(32:31):
lot of doors into who your victims.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Are now that we understand Rex huermann's disturb, beginnings coming
from an alcoholic father in a broken home to snatching
clothes out of girls', lockers we can begin to see his.
(32:56):
Evolution the question now is when Did rex allegedly make
that choice to pull the trigger for.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
The first time and how many times?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Since because according To Thomas, hargrove investigative journalists and founder
of The Murder Accountability, project there are plenty of unsolved
cases On Long island that we need to.
Speaker 18 (33:19):
Consider there was never any debate as to whether this
was a serial case once The Gilgo beach bodies were,
Recovered but what about the dozens and dozens of other?
Women if we go back to two thousand and, nine
before anybody was dug up At Gilgo, BEACH i would
have told you you probably have a serial.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
KILLER i first Met Thomas hargrove back in twenty fifteen
during the filming Of The Killing, season when he had
just founded The Murder Accountability, project a nonprofit that analyzes
homicide data from law enforcement across The United. States tom
uses algorithms to identify patterns of serial murder that law
(33:57):
enforcement CANNOT i recently sat down With tom so he
can walk me through The Murder accountability's latest, database a
map that shows you how to toggle through jurisdictions and
victim profiles to identify homicidal patterns in the form of
big red.
Speaker 18 (34:13):
Circles if you go to our website the county clusters
section and then you pick female for, victim you'll see
the patterns that we now CALL lisk For Long island Serial.
Killer you'll see a giant circle sitting Over Long, island
and that's the algorithm still pinging something bad happened In Long.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Island hargrove's algorithm has been screaming About Long island for,
years long before the first body was discovered At Kilgo.
Beach now WHERE i start to, question is is there
another dumping? Ground because we believe that there might. Be
we've got some individuals. HERE i, mean did that say?
Speaker 4 (34:57):
Five look at that twenty ten?
Speaker 18 (34:59):
Four some of those are the First Gilgo beach.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Victims, okay got, It but then what's? That that's the other?
Speaker 18 (35:06):
SIX i believe the pattern goes back further than.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
That as we continue to pour over the, DATA i
was stunned to see the emerging pattern traced back much
earlier than the murder Of Santra.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Castia this is very.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Interesting for, example the first list that we know of
theoretically is nineteen ninety.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Three the killer was.
Speaker 18 (35:26):
An active much younger than. That when you see the
clustering starting where it is overwhelmingly, READ i would say
nineteen eighty two eighty. Three lisk was active from the
early Eighties Antel Gilgo.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Beach according To hargrove's, algorithm the pattern of outdoor female
homicides stretches back to the early nineteen, eighties meaning Rex
huerman allegedly may have been killing for over forty, years
potentially starting in his twenties when he is first.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
An employee At John's. Beach what has been your interactions
with The Suffolk County Police.
Speaker 18 (36:05):
DEPARTMENT i spoke to the annual meeting of the twenty
seventeen Mid Atlantic Homicide Investigators, association and there were several
detectives From Long, island and so we had a little
chat on the side AND i, said, guys ten is
not the right. Number you, know ten is not the right.
(36:26):
Number AND i showed them the data that you just looked,
at and they agreed that the pattern was far larger
than just the bodies recovered At Gilgo. Beach AND i,
said it's more than. Forty they all solemnly nodded and, said, yes,
sir we know.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
That ready to keep, Listening remember you can be in
the rest of the season right now with An iHeart
(37:03):
True Crime plus, subscription available exclusively On Apple Podcasts. Plus
you get exclusive bonuses and ad free. Listening so head
To Apple, podcasts Search iHeart True Crime plus and subscribe.
Today hunting The Long Island Serial killer is a production
(37:27):
Of TENDERFOOT tv And iHeart, podcasts, hosted written and executive
produced by Me Josh, Zemon produced and written By Caitlin,
Colford Donald Albrighton Payne lindsay our executive producers on behalf
Of TENDERFOOT. Tv Matt frederick And Trevor, young our executive
producers on behalf Of iHeart. Podcasts original music By Alex,
(37:51):
Lasarenko David little and makeup And Vanity Set our supervising
producer Is John. Street editing and writing By Daniel. Lonsberry
additional voiceover provided By Rachel. Mills additional production provided By Ghost,
Robot sound, design mix and master By Daydon. Cole cover
(38:13):
design By byron. McCoy Interns Arnetta, Fontinat Shelby, Hanson Alec
walker And Fox. Williams Ana Television NETWORKS. Llc audio from
The Killing season used under license copyright twenty twenty five
A Anda Television NETWORKS.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Llc all rights.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Reserved special thanks to the team At United Talent, agency
The Nord, Group Brad, Abramson Todd, Leeboitz Rich perrillo And Jigsaw,
Productions Rachel, Mills Zachary, Mortensen Jen, Beegle David, Baker joe
Jack alone And Evan, krause as well as the teams
At iHeart podcasts And TENDERFOOT. Tv find us on social
(38:58):
media At Monster Underscore pod for more podcasts Like Monster
hunting The Long island Serial. Killer Search TENDERFOOT tv in
your podcast app or visit tenderfoot dot. Tv and if
you want to keep following my hunt for The Long
island Serial killer or a deeper dive into my other
true crime, content join me on YouTube At sinister With
(39:21):
Josh zeman
New episodes are released weekly absolutely free, but you can
binge the entire season now with iHeart True Crime Plus
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and exclusive bonus episodes. So head to Apple Podcasts, search
Iheartrue Crime Plus and subscribe. Today you're listening to Monster
(00:27):
Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer. The views and opinions
expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals
participating in the podcast and do not reflect those of
Tenderfoot TV or iHeartMedia. This podcast contains subject matter which
may not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
In this episode, we'll be talking about these victims in
very graphic terms. These details are crucial for proving the
mistakes and missed opportunities could have led to the perpetrators
capture sooner. These individuals deserve to be remembered not by
the details of their deaths, but by the fullness of
their lives. They are Shannon Gilbert, Marine, Brainerd Barnes, Megan Waterman,
(01:13):
Melissa Bartholomi, amberln Costello, Jessica Taylor, Valerie mac Karen Viergata,
Asian do Soandra Castilla, Tanya Denise Jackson and Tatiana Marie Dykes.
Considering everything we've learned about Rex human so far, combined
(01:37):
with that hulking presence and dead stare, it would be
all too easy to make that leap from man to
monster without asking one of the most important questions of
them all, why, Because the why is just as fundamental
to the crime or the criminal as his DNA. In fact,
they both stem from the same place, a deep inside ourselves,
(02:02):
those unique individual markers that define the essence of who
we are. Because when it comes to serial murder, it
shouldn't just be about solving the crime, but stopping the
crime before it starts.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I met Rex when I was in second grade. I
grew up in mass People talk about maybe three or
four blocks from Rex's house. I'm talking mid seventies and
early eighties. We played on the same block. It was
a very small but close knit town. Everybody knew everybody's business.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I recently spoke with John Parisi, a native Long Islander
who grew up with Rex all the way through high school.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Rex was always subliminal. He was an introvert. He was
always around, but he was always in a background, always there,
but not there. He really didn't speak too much. My
mother used to say, watch out for the quiet ones Well.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
John describes Rex as a teenager who lived in the shadows.
His interactions with girls revealed a different side.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I believe that there was a lot of red flags
early on. For example, when Rex was in high school,
he would leave love letters and girls lockers. He would
break into their lockers and steal clothes.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So he would go in and try and grab things
from girls that he liked or maybe had been rejected from.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Correct jackets, certain things. See if you ask me girl out,
if she says no, she'll say, oh, I'm dating somebody,
or I'm flat of it. But thank you, but no,
thank you. That wasn't good enough. In other words, he
internalized it.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
And then there was Jones Beach. John mentioned going to
Jones Beach back in high school, which was intriguing considering
we learned early on that Rex had worked at Jones Beach.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Well, we used to hang out at Jones Beach Field four.
That was the place to go back then. I miss
it to this day.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Did you ever know him when he was working at
Jones Beach?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Dad was later on in high school when he was older, he.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Had a fascination with the beach, the fascination with the
beach that would turn into the perfect job and then
something far darker.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
The alleged serial killers spent about four summers in the
nineteen eighties working at Jones Beach.
Speaker 6 (04:35):
Prosecutors say Huerman worked at Jones Beach when he was
in his twenties.
Speaker 7 (04:39):
Part of the work entailed going from field to field
to ensure beachgoers were off the property once the beach
was closed, a role that made the defendant extremely familiar
with Ocean Parkway at night.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Just six days after our interview with John Parisi, who
was revealed that employees at Jones Beach had made a
haunting discovery.
Speaker 8 (05:00):
Brand new Developments any Gylgo Beach homicide investigations.
Speaker 9 (05:04):
Detectives visited Jones Beach after discovering disturbing evidence near where
suspect Rex Huerman once worked. Workers unearthed a cachet of
weather beaten purses and girls clothing buried in the sand
just outside the East bathhouse.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Could these buried clothes be the same ones Rex stole
from girls' lockers four decades ago, clothes that were said
to include mini skirts, shorts, and blouses. Some with ripped
and torn buttons or considering workers also found a bloody glove,
something more.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
And if a cachet of trophies can.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Remain hidden in the sand for forty years, then what
else could still be out there buried on the beaches.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Of Long Island.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I'm Josh Zemon, and this is monster hunting the Long
Island serial killer.
Speaker 6 (06:27):
Prosecutors in the Gilgo Beach murder case have revealed new evidence.
It comes as suspected serial killer Rex Huerman remains behind
bars without bail, Local state, and federal authorities outlining today
years of quiet evidence collection against Schureman leading to an
indictment reading like a movie thriller.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
For those of us who have been following the list case,
who were starred answers by a police department intent on
hiding the truth, the indictments released by the DA's office
read light chapters in a detective novel, each court document
revealing more pieces to a puzzle we've been trying to
solve for years. Reading between the lines, they were also
(07:08):
signaling to those of us scrutinizing their every move that
this time there would be no mistake. Although some might
contend it was actually rex Huerman himself, who gave them
all the proof they needed.
Speaker 7 (07:21):
Prosecutors say they've scoured devices from Huerman's home.
Speaker 9 (07:24):
And office, and among that evidence several hard drives and.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
About twenty five hundred pages of documents and photographs.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Let's consider for a moment the psychological thriller seven, in
which the killer remains completely analog and therefore anonymous, hence
his name John Doe, as he writes down every sadistic
detail of his crimes by hand, the marble notebooks lining
his bookshelves being his only paper trail.
Speaker 10 (07:53):
There are two thousand notebooks on these shelves, and each
notebook contains on top two hundred and fifty.
Speaker 11 (07:58):
Pages scat anything about the killings.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
What sick, ridiculous puppets we are, and what a gross
little stage we dance on?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
What fun we have?
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Not knowing that we are nothing?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
We are not foot was intended.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
But that's fiction, not reality. The real world is far.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Too complicated to intertwined, and try as we might to
hide it, the trail of our secrets will never disappear,
which brings us to the paradox of rex Hureman, a
man who went to extraordinary lengths to avoid detection, counting
surveillance cameras along a highway, using Burner's cell phones and
(08:39):
fake email addresses, utilizing software to erase digital files. Yet
at the same time he was a pack rat who
held onto hundreds of electronic devices, even an old pompilot
from two thousand and three which revealed his wife's vacation
dates in his gun club activities the week Jessica Taylor
(08:59):
was killed, and the evidence went on and on.
Speaker 10 (09:04):
Investigator seized three hundred and fifty electronic devices from Huerman's home,
including his significant collection of torture pornography.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Including Burner phones.
Speaker 7 (09:14):
They say he used to contact sex workers as recently
as last year, eight terabytes of data with thousands of
photos on four hard drives.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
But beyond the digital evidence he refused to throw away,
there was also a compelling amount of physical evidence.
Speaker 12 (09:30):
Investigators alleged Huberman kept souvenirs. Authorready say a search warrant
of his home in Long Island and Manhattan office uncovered
multiple newspaper clippings about the murders.
Speaker 13 (09:41):
Among the items were a two thousand and three New
York Post article titled serial killer eyed in Sleigh nineteen
ninety three News Day article headlined body is covered in woods.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
The Yellow New York Post article from two thousand and
three found in Humerman's bedroom detailed the murder of Valerie
mac and Jessica Taylor, while the nineteen ninety three Newsday
article found down in the basement in the safe reference
Sondra Castilla. But it was DNA that would create the
ultimate trifecta.
Speaker 14 (10:14):
Hairs found on Meggae Waterman's body and the burlap bindings
match Rex Huerman. A hare found on a belt used
to bind Barnes matches the DNA profile of Huerman's life
Aza Ellerup, and a hair found on Amber Costello's body
matches Huerman's daughter Victoria.
Speaker 12 (10:30):
Investigators say DNA analysis linked hair found near Max's left
wrist to Huerman's wife and daughter.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
While Rex was seemingly meticulous in his attempts to evade
capture DNA evidence, his own hairs, those of his wife Asa,
and his daughter Victoria were found on all the victims.
Ace Allarup was Rex's second wife. They married in nineteen
ninety six, and together they raised Ace's special needs son, Christopher,
(10:59):
aged thirty five, from a previous marriage, and their own
daughter Victoria, aged twenty eight, who worked at her father's
architecture firm. Yet, in the days after Human's arrest, many
began to question how could his wife and child not
know they were living with a cereal or did they
now and were somehow involved.
Speaker 8 (11:20):
In a case like Rex Huerman's. Sadly, there are other
people whose lives are ruined. Rex had a family, wife, kids,
who did not invite any of this.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
You mean to tell me you married couple for twenty
seven years doesn't know what's going on downstairs.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Despite Outlandish's claims suggesting that Asa and her children were
somehow complicit, it's far more likely that they had been
groomed for decades by a master manipulator. The family's attorney
theorizes Asa has been experiencing Stockholm syndrome. Court documents also
outlined another disturbing detail of Rex's double life, the planning
(12:00):
of his murders around his family's trips out of town.
Speaker 5 (12:04):
The DA also saying that at the time that Maureen
Brainerd Barnes went missing, Chureman's wife and kids were in
Atlantic City.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
We learned of a.
Speaker 8 (12:13):
Date book showing his wife out of town. During Jessica
Taylor's disappearance in two thousand and three.
Speaker 15 (12:19):
There is absolutely no evidence that anyone acted with the defendant,
much less his family.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
The DA's office contends beyond a doubt that Rex's wife
and children were not involved in any of his crimes,
and they've gone a great lengths to prove they were
out of town during every murder. The only murder where
they were not away was out of Valerie Mack in
two thousand, which leads to the unsettling question where did
Rex commit her murder and could reveal other victims of
(12:49):
the Long Island serial killer?
Speaker 4 (12:52):
The hunter is learning every kill do he take something
away from it?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And then there was the issue that had divided Suffolk
County police and criminologists alike, that being the issue of
one Killer verse two, as in why had list dismembered
some victims.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
While others were found intact?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
It seems the clue to unraveling the mystery may be
buried in one of the most disturbing documents ever created
by a killer, A document human believed he had erased
until it was recovered by computer forensics. A blueprint carefully
crafted by an architect that detailed not just how to
commit murder, but how to get away with it?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
For years.
Speaker 16 (13:35):
The task force discovered a Microsoft word document. This is
a planning document and it was utilized by Uromin to
methadically blueprint and plan out his skills with excruciating detail.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Which brings us back to June six, twenty twenty four,
and to that live stream with detectives Joe jack Alone
and David Sarney. As the Suffolk County DA released Turemann's
planning document to the public.
Speaker 17 (14:02):
In twenty twenty three, the giggl task Force sees the
hord drive from human residents. The task force found the
Microsoft word document be planning documents.
Speaker 13 (14:11):
He's already listing problems, fingerprints, DNA, he already knew about
it back then.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
He's knowing about police stock, dealing with his truck. If
it gets stuck, what.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Do you do?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
But one of the things that struck us and frankly
everyone else was a number of references to a book
Huerman had researched and studied. The book he used to
plan these murders. Wow, folks, he's reading Mindhunter by John Douglas.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
He's researching.
Speaker 17 (14:38):
He never thought that serial killers are reading and researching
it became perfected.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
He perfected his craft.
Speaker 17 (14:45):
This is a guy perfecting this even this is absolutely insane.
Speaker 15 (14:50):
Misleader misleaders, even too he put misleaders.
Speaker 18 (14:53):
What could misleader the investigations problems?
Speaker 15 (14:56):
We allege that the defendant was looking at mind Hunter,
which was written by a FBI serial killer analyst, not
to gain insight into the mind of a serial killer.
He was looking to gain insight into how it is
that investigators capture serial killers.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
So as Wrex using Mindhunter and the expertise of the
Behavioral Analysis Unit to evade capture, employing forensic countermeasures such
as just memboring his victims not only to prevent their identification,
but scattering their remains in Nassau County to exploit the
territorialism of Suffolk County to add another layer of confusion
(15:37):
to the investigation. And what about misleaders? Was he changing
his MO to suggest more than one killer?
Speaker 5 (15:45):
MO is malleable? It changes over time because of fenders,
especially guys like Heyerman, as we know from the planning document,
learn to be better. They learn when they make a mistake,
and they don't make that mistake again.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Delving further into humans, shifting m and his Mindhunter connection.
I spoke with Mark Saffrick, a former profiler for the
FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit who trained under the legendary John Douglas,
author of Mindhunter.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
Mind Hunter provides some interesting things to think about. For instance, Castillo,
the first victim, is found relatively quickly intact, so that
was probably disturbing to him that she's found quickly. In
order to prevent them from being found and prevent them
from being identified, he starts to engage in dismemberment. Remember
(16:44):
also that Joel Rifkin is in the same area that
Heyerman is in, and he's in the years immediately proceeding
when Rex is acting out.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Between nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety three, Joel Rifkin
dismembered seventeen victims, typically sex workers he picked up in
Manhattan before scattering the remains across.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
New York and New Jersey.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Rifkin lived in East Meadow, just ten miles from Rex's
home in Massapuga Park. Rifkin is also caught on June
twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three. Just five months later, on
November twentieth, Sanders remains are discovered.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
Rifkin confessedival he's about killing seventeen prostitutes in New York
State in the last two years.
Speaker 10 (17:33):
To be able to corroborate what he has told us
means that we're going to have to analyze all of
the older case files from any police department that we
think might be involved.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
He had to know about Rifkin because he'd spent his
whole life in massapequ Well. So he clearly aware of
Rifkin and what Rifkin was doing in terms of dismembering
the victims and spreading those body parts to different counties
to confuse law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
If it's anyone who knows Rifkin, it would be Mark Saffric,
who sat down with him for lengthy interviews during his
time at the Behavioral Analysis Unit. As for Rex Chuerman,
his alleged behavior supports Saffric's assessment. After Santa Caristilla had
been found, the killer's next four victims had all been
dismembered and the remains scattered between Suffolk and Nassau counties.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
I think that he got that idea from reading the book.
If you go into Douglas's book, Douglas interviewed ed Kemper
Kemper is another guy who dismembered victims and then put
their body parts in different counties to confuse law enforcement,
which it did. I think Hoyerman would have read and
he would have thought, Okay, you know this makes sense.
Speaker 10 (18:48):
Kemper told Pueblo police that he had previously killed six
college girls in the Santa Cruz area.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
He was kind of an odd man. He didn't say much.
He seemed like kind of a mama's boy.
Speaker 19 (19:02):
Ed.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Kemper was a brutal and statistic killer convicted of dismembering
seven women and one girl in the early nineteen seventies,
one victim being his own mother. But his conversations with
profilers John Douglas and Robert Wrestler, fictionalized in David Fincher's
series Mindhunter, also reveal a killer who is disturbingly self aware.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
People who hunt other people for a vocation.
Speaker 9 (19:28):
All we want to talk about is what it's like
shit that went down, entire fucked upness of it.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Right, Sure, Well, it's hard work physically and mentally.
Speaker 15 (19:40):
I don't think people realize you need to vent.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
The Kemper Hureman connection is kind of interesting, right, I.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
Think it's interesting because it's in the book, and if
you're reading about Ed Kemper, he's also a very intelligent guy.
He thought about the process. Also, you Knowman's a big guy,
he's kind of like this ogre right, and Kemper was
a big guy, right, So they both have to know
whether my size is going to be intimidating to the
(20:11):
women that I'm trying to connect with. So that's why
I think there's that connection.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
As for changing Mos, Saffik believes Huerman stopped dismembering because
he felt he didn't have to because he had been
so active for so many years and still hadn't been caught.
As for Mindhunter, he believes Hureman wasn't trying to learn
from profilers as much as he was trying to learn
from those serial killers, the ones he had a connection
(20:38):
with Rifkin because of proximity and Kemper because of his size,
trying to learn from both how to not get caught.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
He had two role models for that. He had Joel
Riffkin in terms of how long Rifkin was able to
get away with the murders that he did, and then Kemper.
I think for him it impacts him Kemper was like six',
nine like three hundred, Pounds so he did these dry
runs to see what the reaction. Was are they not
going to go with? You because of the way you.
(21:09):
Look it would not surprise me That heyerman would have
done something, similar like made an appointment to meet. Somebody
SO i don't think That castillo was probably his first.
Victim he likely had others because again he's, thirty, right.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
So you think he has killed Before Sondra, CASTILLO i don't.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
KNOW i think that's difficult to. Say could there be somebody?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Earlier?
Speaker 5 (21:33):
Absolutely DO i always think that we identify every serial killer's. Victims.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
No, inevitably any attempt to understand serial murder to ask
why leads back to the age old debate of nature
Versus and while scientific advances have shown genetic predispositions to
(22:05):
violence what the press is called the serial killer, gene
there's still no such marker for understanding premeditated, murder nor
the rare type of cereal known as a sexual. Sadist,
hence why we need to go back to the, beginning
to a Small Long island town in the nineteen seventies
to uncover the story of how a tormented boy transformed
(22:29):
into a so called suburban.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Monster. Again Here's John, Parisi rex's childhood.
Speaker 19 (22:34):
Friend, well when we were growing up and we played
on the, block we would all take turns and Host
in other, Words monday will be a teachs, House wednesday
will be A joe's.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
House and he was the only kid that never hosted.
ANYTHING i had people.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Over in that close knit. Community it was the hero
and home that stood.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Apart Despite rex's father being successful aerospace, engineer Their humoran
home was, uninviting dilapidated and, dark with peeling paint and broken, panels,
indicative you might, say Of rex's, proclusive domineering.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
Father tell me About rex's.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Dad rectioner's. Father he was, scary six foot, five three hundred,
pounds very, intense very Angry German.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Man he was very.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Abusive we were scared For, rex, like, oh my, goodness
even to get.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Killed how did his father?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Die his father died of an alcohol related. SICKNESS i
was told there was hush, hush there wasn't much said about.
Speaker 19 (23:48):
It but he was only.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Thirteen that's, tough you, know that's tough for. Anybody. LISTEN
i wanted to give the other side of. This my
heart goes out to the young girls and their. Families
i'm not trying to make any excuses for what he.
DID i have a master's in mental health and substance.
ABUSE i believe in improving the human condition at the
(24:12):
end of the, day that's what it's all.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
About As rex grew older and, larger he became an
increasingly visible, target, paradoxically his imposing size making him more
of a victim and not.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Less when he was in like fifth or sixth, grade
he was like five, eight five. Nine they picked on that.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Kid they were.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Unforgiving the kids used to ambush, him and you couldn't
beat him one or a, month so three or four
kids would jump. Him and then when he got to
like junior high, school then they started, realizing oh my,
god he's gonna kill. Me he was almost six foot,
four two hundred and eighty pounds being.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Excluded it takes as, toll it really, does and that's
what happened To.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Rex we always knew That rex was bullied in, school
based upon newspaper, reports but what we didn't realize was
the exact nature of that bullying and which experiences would
prove psychologically damaging.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Sixteen year old girls could be. CRUEL i, mean if
they don't like. You then and again he was his
own worst. Enemy he would ask girls out and they
would laugh in his, face and we'd all have been
rejected whatever.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
Reason to.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Him that rejection was, devastating especially how it was. Done
you ever hear the expression if you kick the dog enough,
times the dog doesn't get up. Anymore the exactly what
happened to. Him, psychologically he was. Done he was. Toast
by the time he got to ten to eleventh, grade
(25:50):
any sense of normalcy was, gone completely.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Gone Rex is bullying isn't unique among serial. Killers in,
fact many of the killers profiled in books Like mindhunter
share this common threat of childhood humiliation and social, rejection
Including rex's alleged role Model Joel. Rifkin it's very interesting
because we had always thought that there was a lot
(26:17):
of bullying going, on and it's very. Common Joel, rifkin
Another Long island serial, killer right. Bullied but when you
said that he had been bullied by, women a light
bulb went.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Off, yeah they would be mean to, him and his
hatred of women manifested. Himself you, know knowing WHAT i, Know,
now he had issues with his. Mother the father was
very abusive and the mother didn't protect her. Son so
that was the beginning of his hatred for. Women and
(26:52):
he's a. Psychopath you didn't see those girls as human,
beings you saw them as. Objects all of this collectively
manifested himself and Made rex who he. Became we all Created.
Rex that includes his, family that includes the, bullyingesschool that
(27:16):
includes not being. Accepted we all created. Him, yes if
we had death penalty and he's proven, responsible he should
got a lethal. Injection so we all got to look
in the.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Mirror If John paresi's view Of rex human seems overly,
sympathetic it's BECAUSE i later learned that he too had been.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
Bullied, yeah we both.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Agreed while many have been relentlessly bullied or have had
abuse of, fathers most don't go on to become The
Long island serial. Killer according to clinical psychologist Doctor Joni,
johnson it's only the rarest of breeds that crosses that
line into true. Darkness in your clinical, assessment what type
(28:06):
of individual are we dealing with?
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Here there's a.
Speaker 11 (28:09):
Couple of different terms you can, use but he's basically
a sexually sadistic serial. Killer he's actually the worst nightmare of.
Anybody he is somebody who doesn't just hurt. People it's
the pain and the fear and the domination that is
the turn on for. Him if you just look at
(28:30):
the pornography that he, consumed that was really what turned him.
On that, sadism which is very very different from somebody
who's into Medsm bdsma's the consent that is a turn
on with sexually motivated serial. Killers it's the lack of
consent and is the turn, on.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Right, Right but how does somebody become a sexual? Sadist
what creates? That it seems so.
Speaker 11 (28:56):
Foreign it is, foreign AND i have thought about. THIS
i cannot tell you the number of TIMES i frought
about it is oftentimes it starts in. Childhood you have
a predisposition of a kid who is not very empathetic,
naturally so it has some kind of. Predisposition but then
they have these pure interactions that are. Humiligating and we
know That Rex human got bullied horribly again high, school
(29:18):
so this anger starts building. Up if you have over controlling,
parents then oftentimes the kid learns to suppress their. Emotions
so fantasy is a very common escape for. Children, right
this is taking a different. Form those fantasies are, angry they're.
Resentful and then sometimes what, HAPPENS i think really is
a tipping point for Sexual, saydanism is that these fantasies
(29:39):
starts continuing along with puberty as he's developing this interest in.
Sex he's got all these fantasies and they start colliding a.
Little they start going on that rabbit hole and they
encounter violent crynography and it becomes more and more.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Consuming but there's got to be something In rex's personality
that takes to the next.
Speaker 11 (30:00):
Level typically what happens is there some life event that
happens that moves that person from fantasizing about, it thinking about,
it to planning.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
It but it's also a lack of.
Speaker 11 (30:14):
Empathy, right there was something a little bit, missing a
little bit off that he's kind of born that way
to some. Extent so, yes there is typically always this
kind of predisposition meets trauma meets situation and that's where
you get the perfect. Storm but if his life trajectory
had gone, differently you, know he wouldn't have ended up
(30:37):
where he potentially is.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Now there is a famous story About Joe rifkin saying
that he walked into a library wanting to know why
he felt the things that he, felt and on one
shelf was the psychology, book and on the other shelf
was a book About Gary, ridgeway The Green River. Killer
and this was a moment in his. Life it could
(31:00):
have gone either, way and he picked up the book
About Gary.
Speaker 11 (31:03):
Ridgeway and once that, happens whether they're saying it to
themselves or, not they've made a. Decision i'm going to do.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
It in that endless debate about nature versus, nurture there's
a famous saying genetics loads the, gun but environment pulls the.
Trigger but when it comes to the case of cerial
murder and To, lisk when all that planning turns into something,
more it's the hunter's, decision and the hunter's decision alone
(31:33):
to pull the, trigger revealing what may be the ultimate
paradox of the alleged rex. Hureman for a man who's
so seemingly large and so, strong it's shocking how small
and how weak he truly, is too weak to overcome
the trauma inflicted upon. Him he chose instead to pass
(31:56):
that trauma out of so many. Others now is how
many others.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
Do you believe that he's killed? Again after Amberlim, Costello.
Speaker 11 (32:07):
It's hard for me to imagine that he is. Not
The fact that law enforcement acted when they did because
he was actively solictening and starting to go that path
again is very concerning to. Me, again if you're thinking
of sexual, sadism where the primary arousal is the infliction
of pain and, suffering then that would hypothetically open a
(32:31):
lot of doors into who your victims.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Are now that we understand Rex huermann's disturb, beginnings coming
from an alcoholic father in a broken home to snatching
clothes out of girls', lockers we can begin to see his.
(32:56):
Evolution the question now is when Did rex allegedly make
that choice to pull the trigger for.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
The first time and how many times?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Since because according To Thomas, hargrove investigative journalists and founder
of The Murder Accountability, project there are plenty of unsolved
cases On Long island that we need to.
Speaker 18 (33:19):
Consider there was never any debate as to whether this
was a serial case once The Gilgo beach bodies were,
Recovered but what about the dozens and dozens of other?
Women if we go back to two thousand and, nine
before anybody was dug up At Gilgo, BEACH i would
have told you you probably have a serial.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
KILLER i first Met Thomas hargrove back in twenty fifteen
during the filming Of The Killing, season when he had
just founded The Murder Accountability, project a nonprofit that analyzes
homicide data from law enforcement across The United. States tom
uses algorithms to identify patterns of serial murder that law
(33:57):
enforcement CANNOT i recently sat down With tom so he
can walk me through The Murder accountability's latest, database a
map that shows you how to toggle through jurisdictions and
victim profiles to identify homicidal patterns in the form of
big red.
Speaker 18 (34:13):
Circles if you go to our website the county clusters
section and then you pick female for, victim you'll see
the patterns that we now CALL lisk For Long island Serial.
Killer you'll see a giant circle sitting Over Long, island
and that's the algorithm still pinging something bad happened In Long.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Island hargrove's algorithm has been screaming About Long island for,
years long before the first body was discovered At Kilgo.
Beach now WHERE i start to, question is is there
another dumping? Ground because we believe that there might. Be
we've got some individuals. HERE i, mean did that say?
Speaker 4 (34:57):
Five look at that twenty ten?
Speaker 18 (34:59):
Four some of those are the First Gilgo beach.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Victims, okay got, It but then what's? That that's the other?
Speaker 18 (35:06):
SIX i believe the pattern goes back further than.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
That as we continue to pour over the, DATA i
was stunned to see the emerging pattern traced back much
earlier than the murder Of Santra.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Castia this is very.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Interesting for, example the first list that we know of
theoretically is nineteen ninety.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Three the killer was.
Speaker 18 (35:26):
An active much younger than. That when you see the
clustering starting where it is overwhelmingly, READ i would say
nineteen eighty two eighty. Three lisk was active from the
early Eighties Antel Gilgo.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Beach according To hargrove's, algorithm the pattern of outdoor female
homicides stretches back to the early nineteen, eighties meaning Rex
huerman allegedly may have been killing for over forty, years
potentially starting in his twenties when he is first.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
An employee At John's. Beach what has been your interactions
with The Suffolk County Police.
Speaker 18 (36:05):
DEPARTMENT i spoke to the annual meeting of the twenty
seventeen Mid Atlantic Homicide Investigators, association and there were several
detectives From Long, island and so we had a little
chat on the side AND i, said, guys ten is
not the right. Number you, know ten is not the right.
(36:26):
Number AND i showed them the data that you just looked,
at and they agreed that the pattern was far larger
than just the bodies recovered At Gilgo. Beach AND i,
said it's more than. Forty they all solemnly nodded and, said, yes,
sir we know.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
That ready to keep, Listening remember you can be in
the rest of the season right now with An iHeart
(37:03):
True Crime plus, subscription available exclusively On Apple Podcasts. Plus
you get exclusive bonuses and ad free. Listening so head
To Apple, podcasts Search iHeart True Crime plus and subscribe.
Today hunting The Long Island Serial killer is a production
(37:27):
Of TENDERFOOT tv And iHeart, podcasts, hosted written and executive
produced by Me Josh, Zemon produced and written By Caitlin,
Colford Donald Albrighton Payne lindsay our executive producers on behalf
Of TENDERFOOT. Tv Matt frederick And Trevor, young our executive
producers on behalf Of iHeart. Podcasts original music By Alex,
(37:51):
Lasarenko David little and makeup And Vanity Set our supervising
producer Is John. Street editing and writing By Daniel. Lonsberry
additional voiceover provided By Rachel. Mills additional production provided By Ghost,
Robot sound, design mix and master By Daydon. Cole cover
(38:13):
design By byron. McCoy Interns Arnetta, Fontinat Shelby, Hanson Alec
walker And Fox. Williams Ana Television NETWORKS. Llc audio from
The Killing season used under license copyright twenty twenty five
A Anda Television NETWORKS.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Llc all rights.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Reserved special thanks to the team At United Talent, agency
The Nord, Group Brad, Abramson Todd, Leeboitz Rich perrillo And Jigsaw,
Productions Rachel, Mills Zachary, Mortensen Jen, Beegle David, Baker joe
Jack alone And Evan, krause as well as the teams
At iHeart podcasts And TENDERFOOT. Tv find us on social
(38:58):
media At Monster Underscore pod for more podcasts Like Monster
hunting The Long island Serial. Killer Search TENDERFOOT tv in
your podcast app or visit tenderfoot dot. Tv and if
you want to keep following my hunt for The Long
island Serial killer or a deeper dive into my other
true crime, content join me on YouTube At sinister With
(39:21):
Josh zeman
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