October 27, 2022 • 39 mins
While American Me was being filmed, a documentary was being shot behind the scenes following the real-life gangsters who were working on the movie.
Filmmakers Susan Todd and Andy Young join the podcast to talk about "Lives In Hazard" the documentary they made behind the scenes about the neighborhood gang members and the inmates at Folsom who were integrated into the cast and crew. We'll hear about the real-life or death scenarios behind American Me as documented by the filmmaking duo.
More Than a Movie: American Me is a podcast that digs into the history and mystery of American Me, a film directed by and starring Edward James Olmos that had a huge impact on Latino cinema and culture. In every episode, our host, Alex Fumero will be diving into the controversy behind the movie.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Alex Fumto, and by now you know this
podcast more than a movie, is all about American Mean.
But there's another movie that's very important to this story. No,
not Blood and Blood Out. I'm talking about Lives and Hazard,
a documentary filmed behind the scenes of American Mean. On paper,
(00:21):
American Mean was an indie film, meaning there was no
major studio behind it, but actually it was what was
known as a negative pickup, meaning the studio had committed
to pay for the film technically once it was done.
I know this because the source who worked on the
production told me so, but out of fear of retribution,
didn't want their name used. Likewise, movie studios sometimes do
(00:43):
this for reasons of liability. They don't want their name
on something that could be legally or otherwise dangerous. In
this case, the movie studio was Universal Studios, and even
though they weren't putting their name on the production yet,
they needed to get promotional materials done while the film
is being made, part of what is called an electronic
press kit or ePK, basically photos and videos from the
(01:06):
making of the film. Sometimes they actually edited into its
own kind of little movie. You probably know it as
the making up or behind the scenes. But for American Me,
consistent with his willingness to fight the powers that be,
Edward James almost wanted something different. He wanted a documentary.
(01:28):
Why don't you introduce yourselves and and your relationship to
American Me. Well, my name is Andrew Young, and I'm
Susan Todd and Susan and I made a documentary about
the making of American Me called Lives and Hazard, which
featured the lives of actual, real gang members that Eddie
(01:51):
almost um hired to be actors in the telling of
his story in American Me. And it was a film
that we star arted, actually following the crew as they
were making the film. And I think one of the
goals that we had when we started that Eddie told
us about was he really wanted to make a film
(02:13):
about what the lives of these gang members who were
in the film was really like. So we went both
on set and offset uh into the lives and homes
of these these guys. Mostly well, it's an incredible documentary
and uh really thank you for being here. Um now,
(02:34):
you guys, uh, you fools are from Boil Heights, right,
you guys are from from Ramona gardens you grew up
and oh where are you guys from? Uh? I grew
up in Ohio and uh Andy and I have been
working together for um more than three decades, uh making
(02:57):
documentary films and uh he and grew up in New
York City. And I think the question you might be
alluding to is like, how in the heck did we
understand what was going on in boil Heights and that
that's where I was headed? Is how do to folks
who are not from even l A, how do you
(03:18):
get involved in this? How do you meet Edward James
almost and how do you end up making getting involved
with lives and hazard? It's our job, essay. Sorry, I
had to give a little America like someone who spent
a lot of time the first time that we really
were embedded in East l A. That you know, it
(03:39):
was a very new experience to us, but you know,
as documentary filmmakers, that is kind of what we do now.
The reason we ended up on this film, this particular
project is really has to do more with family history.
Uh in that my father, filmmaker Robert Young, has a
(04:00):
close personal relationship with Edward James almost because actually Eddie
acted his first acting role was in my father's film Alambrista,
which I also worked on. That was my first job
on a film set, and they have collaborated together on
(04:20):
numerous projects since then. And so when Eddie had the
opportunity to direct his first feature film, American Me, not
only did um he seek my father's involvement because they
very they're very close creative collaborators. But you know, Eddie
knew that this was going to be a very interesting situation,
(04:44):
potentially explosive situation, and one that had learning possibilities in it.
And you know, by then, Susan and I were already
becoming established as documentary filmmakers. And he said, you know,
I want you guys there filming every minute of this.
I'm not going to try to do with the Eddie imitation,
but I suffice it to say, when Eddie asked you
(05:05):
to do something, he's pretty convincing from what I've been
able to gather. Um, you know, some of the things
I've heard is, first of all, that your father played
and you actually see it in your documentary, played a
huge role in the physical filmmaking of this movie. But
that also when Edward James almost wanted to direct One
(05:26):
of the things that sort of gave the studio universal
some some made them feel a little more comfortable with
the idea of a first time director was your father's involvement.
So I'm wondering, if you know, how did they how
did they first come to be collaborators in that way.
I think that um you know, the film that that
(05:49):
my father hired Eddie on, uh called Alambrista is the
story of a Mexican who comes into the United States illegally,
you know, and an illegal immigran rent to work the
fields and send money back to his family. I think
that Eddie was very taken by the way that my
father was making the film, you know, and my father
(06:09):
relied on a lot of real people. He had a
core team of actors, but there are a lot of
real people that my father worked into the film and
real situations. And I think Eddie was very inspired by
that and and probably said to himself, you know, I
want to be making those kinds of films. And uh
So there were numerous projects and Eddie is an amazing actor,
(06:31):
and so my father, you know, hired him in different
roles and um so he brought a lot of life
to different films of my father's. But I think when
when Eddie went to direct his own film, I think
he just wanted you know, my father's there and I
my father is only too happy to help a friend
and collaborate. But it's really Eddie, Eddie's film. Eddie directed
(06:52):
it my you know, my dad was there. I think
to give Eddie some confidence, maybe some ideas now and then,
but this was Eddie's film. Susan, I'm wondering if you
could HELI. You know, you guys managed to get some
incredible access. What were the kinds of enticements that you know,
what was in it for these gang members? Do you think, um,
and how to tell their stories in such a frank way,
(07:13):
What was that process like of getting them to open
up to you? Well, I think that, um, I think
everybody likes to be heard, and I think that we
were in a in a kind of bubble situation being
starting off with the crew, uh and Andy and I
(07:34):
we like to understand people and are interested in talking
to people and I uh hearing about their lives. So we,
you know, slowly, over the days we would hang out
with different people and Andy and I would discuss, Hey,
maybe let's let's see if we can go with Gil
today and see what his neighborhood is like, um when
(07:58):
he's not working as an actor. And that's how we
would kind of take people off on their own and
have like one on one conversations with them. And since
everybody in this in this uh on the crew was
like dealing with this historical situation of of American me
(08:22):
Me's story, it was it offered people a lot of
chance to self reflect on what gang life was really
like and what it is like. And back in the nineties,
that's what we were. That's what we're dealing with. We're
headed into probably the hardest point of the shoot. We
(08:43):
now know that in the last week there have been
three deaths in the two block radius in which we're working,
none connected with us. We've been very, very fortunate, and
we want to just intensify that that good luck that
we've had by taking some more precautions. Do you remember
we've heard of like safety talks for example, that we're
given on set, right, Do you remember the feeling of, uh, well,
(09:08):
you know this isn't is something going to go wrong here?
And what the general vibe of the crew was like
where people worried that, like, you know, violence could break out. Yeah,
I think when we were when we were on location
in East l A. I was I was always a
little worried about drive eyes because we were we were
a pretty big target and h you know, I'm doing
(09:30):
the sound mostly, so of course, every I'm hyper aware
of sirens. I'm hyper aware of cars going by, and uh,
you know it's so when we would be out on
a sidewalk kind of away from the shooting talking to
one of the UM gang members who was a character
(09:53):
in our film. Yeah, I was concerned sometimes when I'd
hear a cargo by quickly. Um and this maximum I
mean fulsome state prison is a place where I hope
I never have to go back to. That was a
really intense environment to be in, especially as a woman.
(10:13):
I have to imagine Susan like, what was that like?
Oh yeah, I mean I was like, I can't even
remember what I was wearing, but I was probably wearing like,
you know, pants, long pants and a shirt. And I
was having my all, my camera, my all my sound
equipment on me, which is heavy, and uh, you know,
(10:34):
I'm walking through attire right low cut, you know, push
up I'm joking. It was it was. It was like
you walk into the gates, you get searched, and I
remember all the sound equipment had to be opened up.
And then you walk through another gate and it locks
(10:55):
behind you. And then you walk through another gate and
then locks behind you and you're being escored it by
a guard. And then you go into this gigantic open
yard where there's hundreds of of inmates. Um, and you're like,
I mean, I was just like, oh, okay, I'm here,
(11:17):
let's start filming Andy and we would um. People would
come up to us. And there were certain inmates that
were actually background actors in the film and they were
separated from the regular population. But it was it was
often hard to know, uh, you know who who was who?
(11:41):
And people would come up to you and it was
very racially divided. Um. The gangs in prisons are you know,
there's there's Arian brotherhood, there's Mexican mafia, there's black gangs,
and they all are you know, um, well, I for
who's the strongest and who's the toughest and how to
(12:04):
protect yourself and it's a it was a tough environment.
It was a really tough environmental work in the ironic
thing is, um, that the scariest guys were the white guys,
you know, the the Arian Brotherhood dudes, um, And that's
you know, that's the irony. Its was like racially divided
and our race was the scariest. Um. And maybe it
(12:29):
was just the way that those guys presented themselves or
the tattooing, the body art, the imagery was all pretty terrifying. Um,
you know, I mean Nazis are terrifying to me. Yeah, yeah,
it's so scary, Yeah, exactly. Well a lot of them
did had Nazi imagery. Big. I remember a guy with
(12:51):
a swastika on his forehead, and you know, whereas the
Chicanos kind of looked like they you know, they could
have been if you put them in a different environment,
they wouldn't really stand out to you. But the Arian
Brotherhood they stood out. And the comments you would catch,
I mean I would again doing sound, I would I
(13:12):
would hi, I'm like hyper hearing everything, and I would
catch these little comments and I would remember just going, Okay,
I heard that. I'm going to talk to Andy about
that after we get out of prison today, you know,
And when and when you interviewed we interviewed Um, one
of the prison authorities. Who was that the the associate
(13:32):
warden You mean associate warden, Yeah, An Olivarez. Yeah. Yeah.
When Anna says we're taking a big risk in doing this,
you realize that, you know, they think it's dangerous too,
Um and they they but they felt like it was
worth a certain amount of risk because they want to
(13:52):
stop people from getting incarcerated in the first place. I
do remember on the yard, the big in yard, Um,
there were uh, you know, people in towers with rifles
and they were you know, they're they're on shoot to
kill orders if if if anybody had messed with us,
(14:15):
you know, they would have been in you know, lockdown
for years. That's that was That was kind of what
the guards told us. So everybody was trying to be
pretty polite. As far as I know. It's the first
time thing ever to happen here where they have allowed
people from the outside to come in and dress as convicts.
It made a lot of stress on all the gunners
(14:35):
when the situation was occurring. When they first came in,
it was no big deal. I seen a green vest
I knew right away that these people must be in
the movie and I was thinking maybe they were gonna
have them keep those vests on for mingling with the
m population. When they came off immediately I lost who
they were. I was concerned about if something was to
happen and I have to fire my warning shot, would
(14:58):
I be firing at and inmate or would I be
firing at an actor. That was a clip of an
actual fulsome prison guard recorded by Susan and Andrew for
their doc So we're watching the guard basically struggle with
how to avoid shooting an actor as American Me is
being filmed at the prison. Coming up, we hear about
(15:18):
Andrew and Susan's experience with gang interventionist Analysadaga, who was
murdered allegedly as a result of her role with American Mean.
Welcome back to More Than a Movie. I'm Alex Fometo.
We're talking to documentary filmmakers Andrew Young and Susan Todd
about their experience making a film behind the scenes of
(15:39):
American Me. So I want to go back to Um
East l a UM and in particular, one of the
folks that you feature in the documentary, Anna Lisaga, who
was credited as a as an advisor consultant and is
a known wasn't known gang interventionist, And I wonder can
(16:01):
you can you tell me a little bit about what
you remember about Anna, what she was like? Um, yeah,
tell me it's some tell me which you remember about her.
You know, she was was obviously street wise because she
had grown up in that environment. Um, but she also
seemed to be really dedicated to reversing the trend um,
(16:23):
you know, providing an alternative for kids. Um. Uh you know.
I mean it was I think revealed in the filming
just how intimately she had experience with with life on
the streets, with drug dealing, you know, with with gang activity.
But it was also evident how much she wanted to
(16:45):
stop that from happening. Um. She was a tough, tough woman.
I believe that she really cared about what she was doing. Yeah.
I I remember her as being very dedicated, uh to
like sitting at the table with the gang members in betweening,
you know, in between shots and scenes and you know,
(17:05):
talking a lot to people, really communicating, uh two people.
She was never she was never like sitting back with
her feet up. She was really really engaged and trying
to make this the film happen. And one scene that
I recall that she was in was in this tiny
(17:26):
apartment where her grandson in the film, because she acted
in the in the film too, she played the role
of her grandmother. Her grandson is discovered overdosed on the
in in the bathroom, and that was that was a
really emotional scene, um for everybody. It was very very
(17:50):
true to her and very real. She's lived that moment.
Good O dealed a lot with old diesel or kids
would have done or kids had done, and so there
it's an old d where it's a drive by shooting
or whatever. Social id you know, kids are still taking
(18:13):
their minds from a sort you're playing with the anam
I didn't they did anyone read that through it? I
think my position and that I would think it was.
I was like balanced on the bathtub trying to kids
behind the door, you know, so I could get good
sound for it. And it was we were all like
sweating because it was really hot. And you know, she
(18:36):
she didn't have to act that when her her reaction
to finding that boy with the overdose, she that was
a real that was real and it was real for
all of us. I remember Eddie crying during that and
you know, just because it was so real. Did you
notice any tension between her and the local gangs, like
what what were their reactions to her? We didn't really,
(18:59):
I didn't see anything like. I didn't. I thought everybody
was was working well together. Yeah, without none of it.
Nothing like that was apparent to us. So she seemed
like a respected person in the community there. You know,
in we know from some federal indictments that Anna was
actually targeted um as early um before the film comes out,
(19:26):
or as even in production. Um did did was that
was anything like that? Was was sort of the danger
of her job ever apparent? Did they? Did she ever
bring that up or did anyone on the set ever
talk about how dangerous her work was? Not to us, um,
I didn't. I didn't know anything about that. In fact,
(19:49):
when we learned that that she had been killed, it
was it was tragic. I didn't know that at all.
I thought that, uh, the work that she was doing
was having positive results on this on the set, and
you know, there were she was she had picked some
of the gang members to be as actors in the film.
(20:10):
I think she had made some judgments and that they
were working well so it was just it was awful.
It was awful, awful. Lisatrica's death made headlines and was
featured on l A newscasts like this one. Lizarraga was
packing for her mother's funeral in Utah, two masked men
(20:31):
rushed to the driveway and opened fire. Police say she
was executed. I mean, you can you can imagine how
being a gang reformer could piss off certain people who
feel threatened. But you know who the gang is, the family,
and and that they may take some somebody doing work
(20:55):
like that as being um, you know, a sign of disrespect,
as if to say the gang is no good. And
so you know, it's not that hard to imagine doing
that work, trying to get kids out of gangs, and
and being not liked for doing that by other gang members.
But but we never saw anything that would suggest that.
(21:18):
I'm just imagining what the reaction was of the folks
around the movie, what what Edward James almost his reaction was,
and what what your father's reaction was. Um, I don't
remember talking to my father about it. Um, it was
very upset. Everybody was very upset. It was it was
a huge tragedy. Um, I'm you know, I think Eddie
(21:41):
was was very upset about it. Um, of course, I
mean this is you know, somebody that he relied on,
um to help make the film. I think anybody. I
mean that, and she was not the only death, and
other other actors in the film wound up on drug
charges back in prison. I mean that that's one of
(22:03):
the things that we were we we feature in Lives
and Hazard is that there are a number of people
that um, you know, I can't get out of the gang.
I went into it thinking about the fact that this
was a this was a situation that needed attention, that
needed society's attention. There needed to be more investment in
(22:24):
these neighborhoods, into the environments that caught that we were
was leading the environment that was leading to this situation,
you know, the drive by shootings, that the drug dealing. UM,
that's what I was thinking about and my motivation. I
think when you go into any situation where you're trying
to change something, you're going to piss somebody off because
(22:47):
somebody is invested in the way things are. And I
think that's that could very well be the way it
was in this situation. I mean, yeah, just like animal
have had enemies for being a reformer. Um. The someone
making a movie that tries to turn kids away from it,
(23:09):
um could bother people too. I don't know that any
I didn't go into the situation thinking that that was
a risk. I just went into it saying, at least
what we were doing in our film, this is a
story that needs to be told at that period of time.
The I mean, here we are two thousand two. Gun
(23:29):
violence is everywhere. Kids are getting shot in schools. That's
why it's on people's minds because that's what uh, you know,
that's that's the most horrific thing, one of the most
horrific things that's going on. Um. But back then the
there there was a lot of focus on gangs back
in the nineties, and you know, gang shootings, gang violence
(23:54):
especially and if you lived around in l a UM.
And I think that we were looking at and investigating
that more deeply and really under trying to understand the
roots of it. And also when the film was done,
(24:15):
President Clinton introduced it. Uh. He gave an introduction to
it on NBC when it was broadcast. Uh, you know,
encouraging people to take a really strong look at this
and let you know, let's get down to understanding this
so we can you know, improve the situation, um, which
(24:37):
you know was Eddie was really behind getting that that
that broadcast. The Department of Justice, UH pulled out lots
of educational material, um and and put funding behind the film.
So there there was a lot of good work that
that came out of this. We had an evolution in
(24:59):
in the process because when we first got there, as
Andy said, originally, UM, we were working for Universal doing
more of an e p K work, UM. And it
was it was as we were working UH in the
weeks that followed that we really realized that we had
(25:19):
a larger movie here and that Eddie realized that too,
and UM, that's when we we kind of let loose
our our documentary style and instincts and move forward, knowing
that Universal could always use whatever it was that we
(25:42):
were shooting for their e p k s, but that
you know, we were we were after the deeper issue
of you know, what does it mean to be in
a gang and what are the what are the people
here that were that are acting in this film, what
are their lives really like? And I think I just
(26:02):
remember the hotel room seeing because they were probably about
twenty people there and we were like all in one
room and uh Andy and I arrived, Um, you know,
after Eddie it said something like you gotta get on
a plane, you gotta get out here. We gotta do
something here and and uh uh, I don't. I think
(26:27):
we had just we probably had just finished or wrapped
up another film that we were working on, and so
it was it was just a lot of listening, you know,
and evaluating what it was that was happening. And at
that point he was still trying to put together what
(26:48):
the actual you know, production design was going to be
like and locations, and you know, at that point in
the film, it's it's a lot. There's a lot of
moving pieces and a lot of moving you know. I
don't think he even had the whole the whole whole
line of crew members set up at that point. Yeah,
(27:09):
this was just an exciting offer because you know, like
I said, we believed that there was a deeper story here.
But I think for the studio it was just like, Okay,
who's going to be the E PK crew? And Eddie said,
I want Andy and Susan in there. And I think
it's also because it was a very special situation, you know,
to use real gang members and real prison inmates on location. Uh,
(27:35):
I mean that hasn't been done, that was never done before.
On that note, I wondered what Susan and Andy's interactions
were like with the real gang members and inmates. We'll
find out after the break Welcome back to more than
a Movie American Meat. I wanted to know more about
(27:57):
the documentary team's experience interacting with real gang members and inmates.
Were these first time cast members happy to have documentary
cameras on them while also shooting a movie for the
first time? I think, you know, I think the film
crew and our small crew, uh, was always treated with respect.
I mean, I think that has a lot to do
with Eddie being at the helm that you know, they
(28:20):
people probably felt good about the fact that, um, there
was you know, that this was a Chicano coming into
to tell their story. Everybody was respectful to us and
seemed to feel really good to be being treated with
respect by the crew. So it felt like, um, it
(28:42):
felt like it was working. Not to say that there
weren't you know, risks and concerns filming in the neighborhood,
but but on the set, people seem to really be
enjoying the experience. You can literally hear it in the
voices of the various extras cast directly from the neighborhood
in East l A's scene actually five o'clock in the morning.
(29:06):
This is my first time on the scene and it's
I didn't know it takes so long, just a film
with little pieces of scene, and it was it was
long hours too. I mean it was it was summertime,
it was hot, and we were working a lot of
times on location in Boil Heights. We were there at night,
you know, our our hours. We would start like a
(29:28):
eight and go until four in the morning. So it
was it was kind of a strange schedule, but um,
you know that helps everybody, I think, to hang together.
So I want to talk a little bit about Edward
James almos and and your experience of watching him, uh
and and documenting him as he's making this film. There's
(29:50):
there's a couple of scenes in Lives and Hazard that
really pop out to me. The first is the opening
scene where he's directing Jacob Vargas and a couple other
young actors in what is the final scene in American
me um where the kids are gonna do a drive by,
(30:11):
and he seems visibly emotional directing that scene, and we
were told by Jacob Vargas that he was a wreck.
Don't worry about the thing. Just pull the trigger. Son.
It's gonna be a little you know, like you don't
know whether you should you should, but you know that
the pressure is on and you better do it. Okay
(30:34):
when you pick up the gun and then you point it.
All right, Okay, there we go. Great faith right now,
so ridiculous. This is scary. Um. Do you remember shooting
that and do you remember what what his energy kind
(30:56):
of was around that scene? He was pretty he felt
pretty sick, I think because it was it's a horrible
thing to recreate. You know, you're thinking about all the
time about what's really happening. This is a young kid,
he's getting terrible peer pressure. He's going to shoot somebody.
(31:18):
He's got a gun in his hand and he doesn't
even know who he's going to shoot. I mean, think
about that. I mean, that's the that's like the total
stupidity of what drive by shooting is like. And Eddie's
recreating it. So he's you know, in the moment, I
remember when we were filmed. He was just like, oh
my god, I can't believe this, because it's it when
(31:38):
you sometimes, when you are acting out something, you are
aware of just how ridiculous it is and how insane
it is. It's and that brought it really to home
for all of us too. Yeah, And and the other
scene that popped out was there was a three year
(32:00):
old kid on the sidewalk, seemingly parents nowhere in sight.
And he's very tough little boy. He has been on
the street for a long long time. Sleepy, you want
to be in the movie with us. It's want to
be in the movie with us. See what they're doing.
It makes you sensitive towards the fact that environment is everything.
(32:22):
You can see it. If this child was getting exposed
to a person even reading a book, he would accept it. Okay,
don't laugh, don't laugh. Whatever you do. You're on cameras,
so don't laugh. Can you tell me a little bit
about how well that moment and then how that might
reflect how Edward James almost felt about the people he
(32:45):
was working with, not not the professional actors, but the
people in the neighborhood. We were in that particular housing
area for a pretty long time. A lot of scenes
are shot in that in that particular housing area where
Jojo uh lived near. Jojo was like that kind of
kid who you know, the the A d s were
(33:07):
coming up to him and trying to tell him, you
got to move your you know, your cycle over this way,
and he would he would look at them and say,
no way am I going to move my cycle over there?
You know, so they had to be give him like
special kind of encouragement. And I think that, uh, you know,
everybody was aware of that, and you know, Eddie just
(33:30):
Eddie's heart went out to him. Uh and uh, you know,
Eddie picks him up in our documentary and just tickles
him and makes him laugh and then you you know,
you really do see that role models can make a
huge difference in people's lives. He's just a kid. He's like,
he's just a kid, like any kid. But you know,
environment is so much of of how we grow up,
(33:54):
what affects us, and you know, he's growing up in
a tough environment. So you and a lot of the
guys talk about I mean in the documentary, it's pretty
explicit there like we didn't have role models, right, um,
And so they did have role models not necessarily positive
role models. Don't take Andrew's word for it, though. Listen
(34:14):
to Jerry Luceerro tell it in Lives and Hazard. A
lot of my friends are dead though. You know, I'm
one of the ones that that's still alive. I'm two
years old. I'm I'm a rare thing here. You know,
when you're older than thirty years oldier, you know, you're
a role model, whether it's positive or negative. Well, there's
one there's one great uh the Jerry who's the one
(34:37):
of the gang counselors who worked really well with a
lot of the uh you know, the gang members when
they were like working together in from different gangs. He says,
you know, when I grew up, I didn't want to
go to Stanford. I wanted to go to San Quentin.
You know. So his his his trajectory in his life
was you know, going to prison. Um that's that's what
(35:01):
he saw as his path. Uh So it's uh, you know,
even even us being there, I think and you know,
uh uh for for the time that we that we
were there, you know that that changed Gil's life. Can
(35:21):
you tell me a little bit about Gil and and
what you remember about him? Um, both what we sort
of see in the dock, but also kind of behind
the scenes. Well he was he was uh. He came
from a smaller gang than the Hazard gang. UH, so
I think he he was Also he had he was
(35:44):
very personable and had kind of a cheery side to
his uh, his personality, you know, he's he was happy.
He also his mom made the best tomales of anybody.
I remember going to their house and having tomales and
they were delicious. But he he was happy to take
us around and really show us the territory and where
(36:07):
things had happened. And he was he was real. He
was He was pretty unauthentic guy, and I think he
was ready for some change. Yeah. I think, like Susan
was saying, you know, people tend to like to be
heard in, you know, on a societal level, and Gil
was one of those guys that was proud to to
(36:28):
show uh, to tell us about his gang MC force,
to uh, to show us how he tags around the neighborhood. UM.
And that for us that's exciting because people are inviting
us into their lives. We often find that we're greeted
that way with open arms. Um. As long as we're
coming in with the right attitude, and whether or not
(36:49):
American Me made an impact on gang recruitment after its release,
we know for sure it changed the life of at
least one man, Gil Espinosa. So the last time you
guys talked to me the last year I started working
podcasting director Sally Pearl Studio. I learned a lot and
now I'm here doing a show at the American man
(37:10):
Gate Theater. This is Westpend most of my time, you know, Encyclopedia.
I consider them another family. They take me, you know,
they have set me for what I am and I
like that. You know WHOA it's just my last name,
that must be what's that? Mc MCF? What's that? The game?
(37:38):
Mostly Christian fellows. If if if we as a society
can't provide them away out, you know, a way to
a legitimate way to earn respect and to better their lives,
then they're gonna create their own system because everybody needs that.
(37:58):
Everybody needs a lot or to climb. They treated you
like like you were somebody, not like you were just
some scumb off the streets, you know, some you know,
gang member and all that. They treated to it like
you were somebody's They treated me like I was important
to them, you know, like like I was needed, you know.
On our next episode, we talked to Antoinette Levine, the
(38:20):
person responsible for securing the dangerous places that American Me
was shot, like Ramona Gardens and Falsome Prison more than
a movie. American Me is a production of Exile Content
Studios in partnership with I Hearts podcast Network and Trojan
Horse Media. The show is produced by me Alex Fumetro
at Angry Yuka on the Internet, and our senior producer
(38:42):
is Nigel Tora. Our executive producers are Rose Red, Nando
Vila and Kareem Taps. Production assistance from Sabine Jansen, Anna
Octavio and Stella Emmett. Mixing and sound designed by the
waterdo Albornos. Our executive producers at I Heart are Gisel
Bances and Arlene Santana. For more podcasts, listen to the
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(39:03):
your favorite shows. H
Hi, I'm Alex Fumto, and by now you know this
podcast more than a movie, is all about American Mean.
But there's another movie that's very important to this story. No,
not Blood and Blood Out. I'm talking about Lives and Hazard,
a documentary filmed behind the scenes of American Mean. On paper,
(00:21):
American Mean was an indie film, meaning there was no
major studio behind it, but actually it was what was
known as a negative pickup, meaning the studio had committed
to pay for the film technically once it was done.
I know this because the source who worked on the
production told me so, but out of fear of retribution,
didn't want their name used. Likewise, movie studios sometimes do
(00:43):
this for reasons of liability. They don't want their name
on something that could be legally or otherwise dangerous. In
this case, the movie studio was Universal Studios, and even
though they weren't putting their name on the production yet,
they needed to get promotional materials done while the film
is being made, part of what is called an electronic
press kit or ePK, basically photos and videos from the
(01:06):
making of the film. Sometimes they actually edited into its
own kind of little movie. You probably know it as
the making up or behind the scenes. But for American Me,
consistent with his willingness to fight the powers that be,
Edward James almost wanted something different. He wanted a documentary.
(01:28):
Why don't you introduce yourselves and and your relationship to
American Me. Well, my name is Andrew Young, and I'm
Susan Todd and Susan and I made a documentary about
the making of American Me called Lives and Hazard, which
featured the lives of actual, real gang members that Eddie
(01:51):
almost um hired to be actors in the telling of
his story in American Me. And it was a film
that we star arted, actually following the crew as they
were making the film. And I think one of the
goals that we had when we started that Eddie told
us about was he really wanted to make a film
(02:13):
about what the lives of these gang members who were
in the film was really like. So we went both
on set and offset uh into the lives and homes
of these these guys. Mostly well, it's an incredible documentary
and uh really thank you for being here. Um now,
(02:34):
you guys, uh, you fools are from Boil Heights, right,
you guys are from from Ramona gardens you grew up
and oh where are you guys from? Uh? I grew
up in Ohio and uh Andy and I have been
working together for um more than three decades, uh making
(02:57):
documentary films and uh he and grew up in New
York City. And I think the question you might be
alluding to is like, how in the heck did we
understand what was going on in boil Heights and that
that's where I was headed? Is how do to folks
who are not from even l A, how do you
(03:18):
get involved in this? How do you meet Edward James
almost and how do you end up making getting involved
with lives and hazard? It's our job, essay. Sorry, I
had to give a little America like someone who spent
a lot of time the first time that we really
were embedded in East l A. That you know, it
(03:39):
was a very new experience to us, but you know,
as documentary filmmakers, that is kind of what we do now.
The reason we ended up on this film, this particular
project is really has to do more with family history.
Uh in that my father, filmmaker Robert Young, has a
(04:00):
close personal relationship with Edward James almost because actually Eddie
acted his first acting role was in my father's film Alambrista,
which I also worked on. That was my first job
on a film set, and they have collaborated together on
(04:20):
numerous projects since then. And so when Eddie had the
opportunity to direct his first feature film, American Me, not
only did um he seek my father's involvement because they
very they're very close creative collaborators. But you know, Eddie
knew that this was going to be a very interesting situation,
(04:44):
potentially explosive situation, and one that had learning possibilities in it.
And you know, by then, Susan and I were already
becoming established as documentary filmmakers. And he said, you know,
I want you guys there filming every minute of this.
I'm not going to try to do with the Eddie imitation,
but I suffice it to say, when Eddie asked you
(05:05):
to do something, he's pretty convincing from what I've been
able to gather. Um, you know, some of the things
I've heard is, first of all, that your father played
and you actually see it in your documentary, played a
huge role in the physical filmmaking of this movie. But
that also when Edward James almost wanted to direct One
(05:26):
of the things that sort of gave the studio universal
some some made them feel a little more comfortable with
the idea of a first time director was your father's involvement.
So I'm wondering, if you know, how did they how
did they first come to be collaborators in that way.
I think that um you know, the film that that
(05:49):
my father hired Eddie on, uh called Alambrista is the
story of a Mexican who comes into the United States illegally,
you know, and an illegal immigran rent to work the
fields and send money back to his family. I think
that Eddie was very taken by the way that my
father was making the film, you know, and my father
(06:09):
relied on a lot of real people. He had a
core team of actors, but there are a lot of
real people that my father worked into the film and
real situations. And I think Eddie was very inspired by
that and and probably said to himself, you know, I
want to be making those kinds of films. And uh
So there were numerous projects and Eddie is an amazing actor,
(06:31):
and so my father, you know, hired him in different
roles and um so he brought a lot of life
to different films of my father's. But I think when
when Eddie went to direct his own film, I think
he just wanted you know, my father's there and I
my father is only too happy to help a friend
and collaborate. But it's really Eddie, Eddie's film. Eddie directed
(06:52):
it my you know, my dad was there. I think
to give Eddie some confidence, maybe some ideas now and then,
but this was Eddie's film. Susan, I'm wondering if you
could HELI. You know, you guys managed to get some
incredible access. What were the kinds of enticements that you know,
what was in it for these gang members? Do you think, um,
and how to tell their stories in such a frank way,
(07:13):
What was that process like of getting them to open
up to you? Well, I think that, um, I think
everybody likes to be heard, and I think that we
were in a in a kind of bubble situation being
starting off with the crew, uh and Andy and I
(07:34):
we like to understand people and are interested in talking
to people and I uh hearing about their lives. So we,
you know, slowly, over the days we would hang out
with different people and Andy and I would discuss, Hey,
maybe let's let's see if we can go with Gil
today and see what his neighborhood is like, um when
(07:58):
he's not working as an actor. And that's how we
would kind of take people off on their own and
have like one on one conversations with them. And since
everybody in this in this uh on the crew was
like dealing with this historical situation of of American me
(08:22):
Me's story, it was it offered people a lot of
chance to self reflect on what gang life was really
like and what it is like. And back in the nineties,
that's what we were. That's what we're dealing with. We're
headed into probably the hardest point of the shoot. We
(08:43):
now know that in the last week there have been
three deaths in the two block radius in which we're working,
none connected with us. We've been very, very fortunate, and
we want to just intensify that that good luck that
we've had by taking some more precautions. Do you remember
we've heard of like safety talks for example, that we're
given on set, right, Do you remember the feeling of, uh, well,
(09:08):
you know this isn't is something going to go wrong here?
And what the general vibe of the crew was like
where people worried that, like, you know, violence could break out. Yeah,
I think when we were when we were on location
in East l A. I was I was always a
little worried about drive eyes because we were we were
a pretty big target and h you know, I'm doing
(09:30):
the sound mostly, so of course, every I'm hyper aware
of sirens. I'm hyper aware of cars going by, and uh,
you know it's so when we would be out on
a sidewalk kind of away from the shooting talking to
one of the UM gang members who was a character
(09:53):
in our film. Yeah, I was concerned sometimes when I'd
hear a cargo by quickly. Um and this maximum I
mean fulsome state prison is a place where I hope
I never have to go back to. That was a
really intense environment to be in, especially as a woman.
(10:13):
I have to imagine Susan like, what was that like?
Oh yeah, I mean I was like, I can't even
remember what I was wearing, but I was probably wearing like,
you know, pants, long pants and a shirt. And I
was having my all, my camera, my all my sound
equipment on me, which is heavy, and uh, you know,
(10:34):
I'm walking through attire right low cut, you know, push
up I'm joking. It was it was. It was like
you walk into the gates, you get searched, and I
remember all the sound equipment had to be opened up.
And then you walk through another gate and it locks
(10:55):
behind you. And then you walk through another gate and
then locks behind you and you're being escored it by
a guard. And then you go into this gigantic open
yard where there's hundreds of of inmates. Um, and you're like,
I mean, I was just like, oh, okay, I'm here,
(11:17):
let's start filming Andy and we would um. People would
come up to us. And there were certain inmates that
were actually background actors in the film and they were
separated from the regular population. But it was it was
often hard to know, uh, you know who who was who?
(11:41):
And people would come up to you and it was
very racially divided. Um. The gangs in prisons are you know,
there's there's Arian brotherhood, there's Mexican mafia, there's black gangs,
and they all are you know, um, well, I for
who's the strongest and who's the toughest and how to
(12:04):
protect yourself and it's a it was a tough environment.
It was a really tough environmental work in the ironic
thing is, um, that the scariest guys were the white guys,
you know, the the Arian Brotherhood dudes, um, And that's
you know, that's the irony. Its was like racially divided
and our race was the scariest. Um. And maybe it
(12:29):
was just the way that those guys presented themselves or
the tattooing, the body art, the imagery was all pretty terrifying. Um,
you know, I mean Nazis are terrifying to me. Yeah, yeah,
it's so scary, Yeah, exactly. Well a lot of them
did had Nazi imagery. Big. I remember a guy with
(12:51):
a swastika on his forehead, and you know, whereas the
Chicanos kind of looked like they you know, they could
have been if you put them in a different environment,
they wouldn't really stand out to you. But the Arian
Brotherhood they stood out. And the comments you would catch,
I mean I would again doing sound, I would I
(13:12):
would hi, I'm like hyper hearing everything, and I would
catch these little comments and I would remember just going, Okay,
I heard that. I'm going to talk to Andy about
that after we get out of prison today, you know,
And when and when you interviewed we interviewed Um, one
of the prison authorities. Who was that the the associate
(13:32):
warden You mean associate warden, Yeah, An Olivarez. Yeah. Yeah.
When Anna says we're taking a big risk in doing this,
you realize that, you know, they think it's dangerous too,
Um and they they but they felt like it was
worth a certain amount of risk because they want to
(13:52):
stop people from getting incarcerated in the first place. I
do remember on the yard, the big in yard, Um,
there were uh, you know, people in towers with rifles
and they were you know, they're they're on shoot to
kill orders if if if anybody had messed with us,
(14:15):
you know, they would have been in you know, lockdown
for years. That's that was That was kind of what
the guards told us. So everybody was trying to be
pretty polite. As far as I know. It's the first
time thing ever to happen here where they have allowed
people from the outside to come in and dress as convicts.
It made a lot of stress on all the gunners
(14:35):
when the situation was occurring. When they first came in,
it was no big deal. I seen a green vest
I knew right away that these people must be in
the movie and I was thinking maybe they were gonna
have them keep those vests on for mingling with the
m population. When they came off immediately I lost who
they were. I was concerned about if something was to
happen and I have to fire my warning shot, would
(14:58):
I be firing at and inmate or would I be
firing at an actor. That was a clip of an
actual fulsome prison guard recorded by Susan and Andrew for
their doc So we're watching the guard basically struggle with
how to avoid shooting an actor as American Me is
being filmed at the prison. Coming up, we hear about
(15:18):
Andrew and Susan's experience with gang interventionist Analysadaga, who was
murdered allegedly as a result of her role with American Mean.
Welcome back to More Than a Movie. I'm Alex Fometo.
We're talking to documentary filmmakers Andrew Young and Susan Todd
about their experience making a film behind the scenes of
(15:39):
American Me. So I want to go back to Um
East l a UM and in particular, one of the
folks that you feature in the documentary, Anna Lisaga, who
was credited as a as an advisor consultant and is
a known wasn't known gang interventionist, And I wonder can
(16:01):
you can you tell me a little bit about what
you remember about Anna, what she was like? Um, yeah,
tell me it's some tell me which you remember about her.
You know, she was was obviously street wise because she
had grown up in that environment. Um, but she also
seemed to be really dedicated to reversing the trend um,
(16:23):
you know, providing an alternative for kids. Um. Uh you know.
I mean it was I think revealed in the filming
just how intimately she had experience with with life on
the streets, with drug dealing, you know, with with gang activity.
But it was also evident how much she wanted to
(16:45):
stop that from happening. Um. She was a tough, tough woman.
I believe that she really cared about what she was doing. Yeah.
I I remember her as being very dedicated, uh to
like sitting at the table with the gang members in betweening,
you know, in between shots and scenes and you know,
(17:05):
talking a lot to people, really communicating, uh two people.
She was never she was never like sitting back with
her feet up. She was really really engaged and trying
to make this the film happen. And one scene that
I recall that she was in was in this tiny
(17:26):
apartment where her grandson in the film, because she acted
in the in the film too, she played the role
of her grandmother. Her grandson is discovered overdosed on the
in in the bathroom, and that was that was a
really emotional scene, um for everybody. It was very very
(17:50):
true to her and very real. She's lived that moment.
Good O dealed a lot with old diesel or kids
would have done or kids had done, and so there
it's an old d where it's a drive by shooting
or whatever. Social id you know, kids are still taking
(18:13):
their minds from a sort you're playing with the anam
I didn't they did anyone read that through it? I
think my position and that I would think it was.
I was like balanced on the bathtub trying to kids
behind the door, you know, so I could get good
sound for it. And it was we were all like
sweating because it was really hot. And you know, she
(18:36):
she didn't have to act that when her her reaction
to finding that boy with the overdose, she that was
a real that was real and it was real for
all of us. I remember Eddie crying during that and
you know, just because it was so real. Did you
notice any tension between her and the local gangs, like
what what were their reactions to her? We didn't really,
(18:59):
I didn't see anything like. I didn't. I thought everybody
was was working well together. Yeah, without none of it.
Nothing like that was apparent to us. So she seemed
like a respected person in the community there. You know,
in we know from some federal indictments that Anna was
actually targeted um as early um before the film comes out,
(19:26):
or as even in production. Um did did was that
was anything like that? Was was sort of the danger
of her job ever apparent? Did they? Did she ever
bring that up or did anyone on the set ever
talk about how dangerous her work was? Not to us, um,
I didn't. I didn't know anything about that. In fact,
(19:49):
when we learned that that she had been killed, it
was it was tragic. I didn't know that at all.
I thought that, uh, the work that she was doing
was having positive results on this on the set, and
you know, there were she was she had picked some
of the gang members to be as actors in the film.
(20:10):
I think she had made some judgments and that they
were working well so it was just it was awful.
It was awful, awful. Lisatrica's death made headlines and was
featured on l A newscasts like this one. Lizarraga was
packing for her mother's funeral in Utah, two masked men
(20:31):
rushed to the driveway and opened fire. Police say she
was executed. I mean, you can you can imagine how
being a gang reformer could piss off certain people who
feel threatened. But you know who the gang is, the family,
and and that they may take some somebody doing work
(20:55):
like that as being um, you know, a sign of disrespect,
as if to say the gang is no good. And
so you know, it's not that hard to imagine doing
that work, trying to get kids out of gangs, and
and being not liked for doing that by other gang members.
But but we never saw anything that would suggest that.
(21:18):
I'm just imagining what the reaction was of the folks
around the movie, what what Edward James almost his reaction was,
and what what your father's reaction was. Um, I don't
remember talking to my father about it. Um, it was
very upset. Everybody was very upset. It was it was
a huge tragedy. Um, I'm you know, I think Eddie
(21:41):
was was very upset about it. Um, of course, I
mean this is you know, somebody that he relied on,
um to help make the film. I think anybody. I
mean that, and she was not the only death, and
other other actors in the film wound up on drug
charges back in prison. I mean that that's one of
(22:03):
the things that we were we we feature in Lives
and Hazard is that there are a number of people
that um, you know, I can't get out of the gang.
I went into it thinking about the fact that this
was a this was a situation that needed attention, that
needed society's attention. There needed to be more investment in
(22:24):
these neighborhoods, into the environments that caught that we were
was leading the environment that was leading to this situation,
you know, the drive by shootings, that the drug dealing. UM,
that's what I was thinking about and my motivation. I
think when you go into any situation where you're trying
to change something, you're going to piss somebody off because
(22:47):
somebody is invested in the way things are. And I
think that's that could very well be the way it
was in this situation. I mean, yeah, just like animal
have had enemies for being a reformer. Um. The someone
making a movie that tries to turn kids away from it,
(23:09):
um could bother people too. I don't know that any
I didn't go into the situation thinking that that was
a risk. I just went into it saying, at least
what we were doing in our film, this is a
story that needs to be told at that period of time.
The I mean, here we are two thousand two. Gun
(23:29):
violence is everywhere. Kids are getting shot in schools. That's
why it's on people's minds because that's what uh, you know,
that's that's the most horrific thing, one of the most
horrific things that's going on. Um. But back then the
there there was a lot of focus on gangs back
in the nineties, and you know, gang shootings, gang violence
(23:54):
especially and if you lived around in l a UM.
And I think that we were looking at and investigating
that more deeply and really under trying to understand the
roots of it. And also when the film was done,
(24:15):
President Clinton introduced it. Uh. He gave an introduction to
it on NBC when it was broadcast. Uh, you know,
encouraging people to take a really strong look at this
and let you know, let's get down to understanding this
so we can you know, improve the situation, um, which
(24:37):
you know was Eddie was really behind getting that that
that broadcast. The Department of Justice, UH pulled out lots
of educational material, um and and put funding behind the film.
So there there was a lot of good work that
that came out of this. We had an evolution in
(24:59):
in the process because when we first got there, as
Andy said, originally, UM, we were working for Universal doing
more of an e p K work, UM. And it
was it was as we were working UH in the
weeks that followed that we really realized that we had
(25:19):
a larger movie here and that Eddie realized that too,
and UM, that's when we we kind of let loose
our our documentary style and instincts and move forward, knowing
that Universal could always use whatever it was that we
(25:42):
were shooting for their e p k s, but that
you know, we were we were after the deeper issue
of you know, what does it mean to be in
a gang and what are the what are the people
here that were that are acting in this film, what
are their lives really like? And I think I just
(26:02):
remember the hotel room seeing because they were probably about
twenty people there and we were like all in one
room and uh Andy and I arrived, Um, you know,
after Eddie it said something like you gotta get on
a plane, you gotta get out here. We gotta do
something here and and uh uh, I don't. I think
(26:27):
we had just we probably had just finished or wrapped
up another film that we were working on, and so
it was it was just a lot of listening, you know,
and evaluating what it was that was happening. And at
that point he was still trying to put together what
(26:48):
the actual you know, production design was going to be
like and locations, and you know, at that point in
the film, it's it's a lot. There's a lot of
moving pieces and a lot of moving you know. I
don't think he even had the whole the whole whole
line of crew members set up at that point. Yeah,
(27:09):
this was just an exciting offer because you know, like
I said, we believed that there was a deeper story here.
But I think for the studio it was just like, Okay,
who's going to be the E PK crew? And Eddie said,
I want Andy and Susan in there. And I think
it's also because it was a very special situation, you know,
to use real gang members and real prison inmates on location. Uh,
(27:35):
I mean that hasn't been done, that was never done before.
On that note, I wondered what Susan and Andy's interactions
were like with the real gang members and inmates. We'll
find out after the break Welcome back to more than
a Movie American Meat. I wanted to know more about
(27:57):
the documentary team's experience interacting with real gang members and inmates.
Were these first time cast members happy to have documentary
cameras on them while also shooting a movie for the
first time? I think, you know, I think the film
crew and our small crew, uh, was always treated with respect.
I mean, I think that has a lot to do
with Eddie being at the helm that you know, they
(28:20):
people probably felt good about the fact that, um, there
was you know, that this was a Chicano coming into
to tell their story. Everybody was respectful to us and
seemed to feel really good to be being treated with
respect by the crew. So it felt like, um, it
(28:42):
felt like it was working. Not to say that there
weren't you know, risks and concerns filming in the neighborhood,
but but on the set, people seem to really be
enjoying the experience. You can literally hear it in the
voices of the various extras cast directly from the neighborhood
in East l A's scene actually five o'clock in the morning.
(29:06):
This is my first time on the scene and it's
I didn't know it takes so long, just a film
with little pieces of scene, and it was it was
long hours too. I mean it was it was summertime,
it was hot, and we were working a lot of
times on location in Boil Heights. We were there at night,
you know, our our hours. We would start like a
(29:28):
eight and go until four in the morning. So it
was it was kind of a strange schedule, but um,
you know that helps everybody, I think, to hang together.
So I want to talk a little bit about Edward
James almos and and your experience of watching him, uh
and and documenting him as he's making this film. There's
(29:50):
there's a couple of scenes in Lives and Hazard that
really pop out to me. The first is the opening
scene where he's directing Jacob Vargas and a couple other
young actors in what is the final scene in American
me um where the kids are gonna do a drive by,
(30:11):
and he seems visibly emotional directing that scene, and we
were told by Jacob Vargas that he was a wreck.
Don't worry about the thing. Just pull the trigger. Son.
It's gonna be a little you know, like you don't
know whether you should you should, but you know that
the pressure is on and you better do it. Okay
(30:34):
when you pick up the gun and then you point it.
All right, Okay, there we go. Great faith right now,
so ridiculous. This is scary. Um. Do you remember shooting
that and do you remember what what his energy kind
(30:56):
of was around that scene? He was pretty he felt
pretty sick, I think because it was it's a horrible
thing to recreate. You know, you're thinking about all the
time about what's really happening. This is a young kid,
he's getting terrible peer pressure. He's going to shoot somebody.
(31:18):
He's got a gun in his hand and he doesn't
even know who he's going to shoot. I mean, think
about that. I mean, that's the that's like the total
stupidity of what drive by shooting is like. And Eddie's
recreating it. So he's you know, in the moment, I
remember when we were filmed. He was just like, oh
my god, I can't believe this, because it's it when
(31:38):
you sometimes, when you are acting out something, you are
aware of just how ridiculous it is and how insane
it is. It's and that brought it really to home
for all of us too. Yeah, And and the other
scene that popped out was there was a three year
(32:00):
old kid on the sidewalk, seemingly parents nowhere in sight.
And he's very tough little boy. He has been on
the street for a long long time. Sleepy, you want
to be in the movie with us. It's want to
be in the movie with us. See what they're doing.
It makes you sensitive towards the fact that environment is everything.
(32:22):
You can see it. If this child was getting exposed
to a person even reading a book, he would accept it. Okay,
don't laugh, don't laugh. Whatever you do. You're on cameras,
so don't laugh. Can you tell me a little bit
about how well that moment and then how that might
reflect how Edward James almost felt about the people he
(32:45):
was working with, not not the professional actors, but the
people in the neighborhood. We were in that particular housing
area for a pretty long time. A lot of scenes
are shot in that in that particular housing area where
Jojo uh lived near. Jojo was like that kind of
kid who you know, the the A d s were
(33:07):
coming up to him and trying to tell him, you
got to move your you know, your cycle over this way,
and he would he would look at them and say,
no way am I going to move my cycle over there?
You know, so they had to be give him like
special kind of encouragement. And I think that, uh, you know,
everybody was aware of that, and you know, Eddie just
(33:30):
Eddie's heart went out to him. Uh and uh, you know,
Eddie picks him up in our documentary and just tickles
him and makes him laugh and then you you know,
you really do see that role models can make a
huge difference in people's lives. He's just a kid. He's like,
he's just a kid, like any kid. But you know,
environment is so much of of how we grow up,
(33:54):
what affects us, and you know, he's growing up in
a tough environment. So you and a lot of the
guys talk about I mean in the documentary, it's pretty
explicit there like we didn't have role models, right, um,
And so they did have role models not necessarily positive
role models. Don't take Andrew's word for it, though. Listen
(34:14):
to Jerry Luceerro tell it in Lives and Hazard. A
lot of my friends are dead though. You know, I'm
one of the ones that that's still alive. I'm two
years old. I'm I'm a rare thing here. You know,
when you're older than thirty years oldier, you know, you're
a role model, whether it's positive or negative. Well, there's
one there's one great uh the Jerry who's the one
(34:37):
of the gang counselors who worked really well with a
lot of the uh you know, the gang members when
they were like working together in from different gangs. He says,
you know, when I grew up, I didn't want to
go to Stanford. I wanted to go to San Quentin.
You know. So his his his trajectory in his life
was you know, going to prison. Um that's that's what
(35:01):
he saw as his path. Uh So it's uh, you know,
even even us being there, I think and you know,
uh uh for for the time that we that we
were there, you know that that changed Gil's life. Can
(35:21):
you tell me a little bit about Gil and and
what you remember about him? Um, both what we sort
of see in the dock, but also kind of behind
the scenes. Well he was he was uh. He came
from a smaller gang than the Hazard gang. UH, so
I think he he was Also he had he was
(35:44):
very personable and had kind of a cheery side to
his uh, his personality, you know, he's he was happy.
He also his mom made the best tomales of anybody.
I remember going to their house and having tomales and
they were delicious. But he he was happy to take
us around and really show us the territory and where
(36:07):
things had happened. And he was he was real. He
was He was pretty unauthentic guy, and I think he
was ready for some change. Yeah. I think, like Susan
was saying, you know, people tend to like to be
heard in, you know, on a societal level, and Gil
was one of those guys that was proud to to
(36:28):
show uh, to tell us about his gang MC force,
to uh, to show us how he tags around the neighborhood. UM.
And that for us that's exciting because people are inviting
us into their lives. We often find that we're greeted
that way with open arms. Um. As long as we're
coming in with the right attitude, and whether or not
(36:49):
American Me made an impact on gang recruitment after its release,
we know for sure it changed the life of at
least one man, Gil Espinosa. So the last time you
guys talked to me the last year I started working
podcasting director Sally Pearl Studio. I learned a lot and
now I'm here doing a show at the American man
(37:10):
Gate Theater. This is Westpend most of my time, you know, Encyclopedia.
I consider them another family. They take me, you know,
they have set me for what I am and I
like that. You know WHOA it's just my last name,
that must be what's that? Mc MCF? What's that? The game?
(37:38):
Mostly Christian fellows. If if if we as a society
can't provide them away out, you know, a way to
a legitimate way to earn respect and to better their lives,
then they're gonna create their own system because everybody needs that.
(37:58):
Everybody needs a lot or to climb. They treated you
like like you were somebody, not like you were just
some scumb off the streets, you know, some you know,
gang member and all that. They treated to it like
you were somebody's They treated me like I was important
to them, you know, like like I was needed, you know.
On our next episode, we talked to Antoinette Levine, the
(38:20):
person responsible for securing the dangerous places that American Me
was shot, like Ramona Gardens and Falsome Prison more than
a movie. American Me is a production of Exile Content
Studios in partnership with I Hearts podcast Network and Trojan
Horse Media. The show is produced by me Alex Fumetro
at Angry Yuka on the Internet, and our senior producer
(38:42):
is Nigel Tora. Our executive producers are Rose Red, Nando
Vila and Kareem Taps. Production assistance from Sabine Jansen, Anna
Octavio and Stella Emmett. Mixing and sound designed by the
waterdo Albornos. Our executive producers at I Heart are Gisel
Bances and Arlene Santana. For more podcasts, listen to the
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(39:03):
your favorite shows. H
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