March 25, 2025 • 43 mins
**Please Note - this episode is audio only.
On today's episode, we discuss Anne Soon Choi's new book, L.A. Coroner: Thomas Noguchi and Death in Hollywood. We dive into the mysterious deaths of Marilyn Monroe, RFK, Sharon Tate, Natalie Wood, and more!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk Hi. Everyone.
Welcome to Mother Knows Death. One of the advantages to
this job and having this position on this podcast is
(00:28):
that we get advanced copies of people's books. And we
recently received a copy of a book by an author
named doctor Ann Sue Chen who came out with well,
she didn't come out with it yet. It's coming out
on when's it coming out?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
April twenty second.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
April twenty second, So it's in the works, but we
had a copy of it. We're able to read it,
and it is titled La Coroner, Thomas Negucci and Death
in Hollywood. And you guys will love this because we
think the juiciest subjects on this show are the celebrity deaths,
and there's a lot of them in this book.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah. So I actually read this book in about two days,
and I thought it was a pretty easy read and
definitely kept my attention the entire time. Just briefly, it
goes over the career of doctor Thomas Negucci, who is
the chief coroner in La County. Between nineteen sixty seven
and nineteen eighty two. He had a brief suspension in
nineteen sixty nine, which we'll talk about a little bit
(01:24):
in this episode and goes into more detail in the book.
But crazy enough, he is still alive at ninety years
old and he inspired the TV show Quincy's That's really cool. Yeah,
So we're going to start off talking about the deaths
of Marilyn Monroe and getting another one such as Bobby Kennedy,
Sharon Tate, and Natalie Wood.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Let's talk about this for a second, because I just
think by by proxy, like you, if you work in
Los Angeles and you're either a cop, a firefighter, an
EMS person, or you're a coroner, you're going to see
the most celebrities of any other offices in the entire country,
(02:05):
just because most of the celebrities are either working in
Los Angeles or living in Los Angeles. And what happens is,
especially when it comes to coroners and where your autopsy
is done. If you die, it's done by jurisdiction. So
Marilyn Monroe, she had died in Los Angeles and the
jurisdiction is the Los Angeles Coroner's Office, So there are
(02:27):
going to be the ones that do the autopsy. And
that's almost across the country. Is where you die is
where you have the autopsy. It doesn't necessarily matter where
you're from, it's where you die. So even actors that
are visiting Hollywood that die would still get the autopsy
done at the LA Coroner's office, which is why we
(02:47):
hear that they're involved in so many celebrity deaths. So
let's start off first by talking about Marilyn Monroe. So
we did a celebrity death dissection in the gross room
probably five years ago. She was one of the first
ones I've ever did in the groceryroom. So Nogucci, he's
(03:09):
a what was he like a a junior pathologist at
the time. He was just newly working there at the
Medical Examiner's office there in Los Angeles, and he went
to work as usual that Monday, it was August fifth,
nineteen sixty two, and on his desk he found a
message from the Chief Medical Examiner. So the chief medical
(03:32):
Examiner is kind of the boss that overlooks all of
the other medical examiners underneath of them, and it said,
quote doctor Kurfey wants doctor Nagochi to do the autopsy
on Marilyn Monroe, which I kind of think is kind
of interesting that the chief medical examiner would not be
the one that was like, I'm putting my name on
(03:53):
this because this is going to be a big frickin' deal.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Well, do you think that's maybe why he didn't, because
he knew this was going to be such a problem
and he didn't want to be associated with it.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, I'm sure, I think so. There's two different things
that I could think of. It's either that or maybe
Nogucci at that time had such a good reputation for
being meticulous and being able to determine cause of death
that maybe he felt he felt that he would be
the best to do it. Although I'm sure I'm sure
(04:25):
it's the former. Like you understand, I just think it's
a little unusual. Most high profile cases, the chief will
be like, Okay, I'll be the one that steps in
on this. So Marilyn was so anybody that listens to
the show probably knows the deal, and we don't have
to get super into all of the details, but there
(04:48):
were some suspicious findings immediately with just how the whole
thing went down. She was found dead, She was naked,
which is unusual, She was in a weird unnatural position
with her right hand gripping the telephone receiver as if
somebody was intentionally trying to set her up to look
that way. And there were bottles containing sleeping pills on
(05:10):
the bedside, so that was unusual. And then there was
also do you remember there was like some unusual things
with the way the housekeeper acted to Apparently the housekeeper
had called her psychiatrist before calling police, and like a
whole entire hour before calling police. And then when the
(05:32):
police showed up, the housekeeper, who was also considered to
be Marilyn Monroe's friend, had had a load of wash running,
which is unusual. Like if you're a housekeeper living with
a person taking care of them, in friends with a person,
why on earth would you think about doing a load
of wash while this person's laying dead and the police
are there investigating their death. It's just bizarre.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I could she have thrown it in before she found
her No.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I think that they determined that whatever time of the
cycle it was, that it was done after they determined
that she had died. So there was just like a
little bit of weirdness around there. So I mean, and
it's Marilyn Monroe and and and there's a million things.
So he gets the body to the medical examiner's office
(06:18):
and he does the autopsy, and he said that nothing
really looked abnormal about her organs. Whenever you find someone dead.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Who's she was, how old was she?
Speaker 1 (06:30):
She was young?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
She was young.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
She was young. Yeah, look that up exactly, because she
was either in her late twenties or early thirties, but
she was very young. You find somebody dead that has
now Marilyn Monroe has a history of previous suicide attempts,
a history of taking these medications. So whenever you see that,
you see the pills at the bedside, you're thinking, okay,
(06:53):
it's possible that she did take her own life. So
he does the autopsy, and of course he's thinking as
well when he does it. But then when he gets
to her stomach, he finds nothing in her stomach, which
means that she didn't swallow a whole bunch of pills
and then die. That didn't happen because he didn't find
any undigested pills in her upper gi track like that.
(07:16):
And that's something that you would see when somebody was
having an act of desperation and just taking a lot
of pills at one time, so he thought that that
was a little weird and did question it. But he
sent all of this stuff to get tested for toxicology,
which would include samples of her liver, blood and things
(07:37):
like that, and the toxicology came back and there was
this head toxicologist and he had said that the levels
of pentobarbital and chlorohydrate were fatal and they decided based
on that that she died of a drug overdose and
her manner of death was suicide. Now, the thing that
(08:02):
doctor Nagochi had brought up in the future was that
he was, like we said, he was a junior pathologist.
He didn't have any experience or say in much because
he didn't want to question this chief toxicologist that had
all this experience over him. But he was kind of
thinking it was a little weird that they didn't run
the toxicology on the actual stomach contents as well as
(08:26):
other organs that he had asked them to do, and
they kind of blew them off to do like a
more thorough autopsy just to cross off any concern that
there might be. So that was one of the things
that started being concerning to people as far as them
just automatically saying that she died of suicide. And sometimes
(08:50):
when you determine, because when anybody overdoses on any kind
of drugs, whether it's legal drugs or prescription drugs, you
always have to take into consideration some of the circumstances
that will determine if the manner of death was an accident,
or if the manner of death was suicide, or if
the manner of death was homicide, which we'll get into
(09:13):
a minute with that because that sounds a little weird,
but with suicide you will check. So she did have
a history of previous suicide attempts, which is very strong,
but there was no suicide note and there were no
undigestive pills in her stomach, So that has to make
you think like, Okay, this didn't seem like an acute
thing that she that she killed herself, so let's look
(09:36):
at other things that could be done. So the next
thing you're going to look at is okay, okay, well
was this an accident? Did she maybe take too many
of these medications together by accident? And now those questions
are really out the window because they didn't check the
stomach contents, so they don't even know if the pills
were digested or if those things were in her system
(09:58):
for a little bit longer. And the reason that I
bring up homicide in this case is because, in my
personal opinion, so we do know that there's been all
of these theories going on for the past however many
years that Marilyn was killed by the Kennedys, that there
(10:18):
was something associated with the Kennedys.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Well, you really can't ignore the connection to them, and they're,
you know, infamous curse that everybody no.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
I yeah, and I'm not. But but based upon what
I see, I honestly would say that her manner of
death should be homicide, but not because of the Kennedy's involvement,
but because of It's kind of like a Michael Jackson
case in which Marilyn Monroe had inappropriate relationships with her
(10:48):
doctors getting VIP treatment medications she shouldn't be on. She
had a strong family history of psychological disease, personal family
history of psychological disease, and then it was like she
had a personal physician and a psychiatrist that were not
in great communication with each other about what medications they
were giving her, and she was over over over medicated,
(11:11):
and that is my opinion as to how she died.
She just had way too many drugs in her system.
And I personally don't believe that she intended to kill
herself based upon the way the whole scene was set up.
I think once now, listen, this is why I think
a shady like if that if the housekeeper called the
(11:32):
psychiatrist first and they were on the phone and talking
for over an hour before they called police, I actually
think it's possible that the psychiatrist had like a meltdown
because she was dead, and then all of a sudden
was like, oh my God, like this is going to
be on me. And then somehow the housekeeper was told
to like make it seem like she looked like she
(11:53):
killed herself. Honestly, I believe that. Now anybody could argue
with me and say whatever, but that's what I think
think that's really what I think happened based upon everything
that I've read so far about it. So I guess,
getting back to the book that you read, what happened
with that, Like after he had done this autopsy on Marilyn,
(12:17):
how was he held in the media and how what
did people think of him after that?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, in the book. It seems like, you know, he
was getting pretty good recognition for the work he did
in the autopsy, except for the botch toxicology like you
were talking about, because even though he was adamant that
he had ordered those tests on all of her organs
and you know, the higher ups just didn't complete them,
it ultimately reflected poorly on him, which also brings back
(12:44):
the point earlier where you were saying, like, why wouldn't
the chief coroner do it? He had to have predicted
in some capacity this was going to be controversial.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I really to just wrap
up Marilyn Monroe. I really believe that if if she
had died in two tenty twenty five, the manner of
death certainly wouldn't have been ruled suicide, and honestly, her
treating physicians would possibly be facing charges and the manner
death might be rolled homicide, similar to what happened with
(13:15):
Michael Jackson, Because I mean, and listen, like, we could
go over so many different celebrity deaths that don't involve
Nogochi that are the same exact situation where the treating
physicians are responsible for these people's deaths.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I mean, if you want to think at about the
sixties too, sorry to cut you off. I just like,
I think this part of pop culture when we talk
about the sixties that we were always focusing on is
like the casual pill popping element. And I think that
maybe you're suggesting this too, that like the doctors are
just not being held responsible for this because it was
just so common to go and get pills, and you know,
(13:53):
it's this like joke and all these shows we watched,
like Madmen and Palm Royale and everything, that these women
are just so casually popping pills, and that seemed like
the culture she was participating in too, So it doesn't
seem like anybody being held responsible.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, and I can't imagine, Like I just think she
had a level of fame that was that was unlike
any other and attention, and it's just if you're walking
into a situation like that already mentally unstable, it's just terrible.
And then you know you've heard this from even from
Dorothy with Wizard of Oz and everything, how she had
(14:31):
to take pills to lose weight, and there was just
a lot of pressure on You need to be alert,
you need to be peppy, but then you need to
go home and you need to go to sleep, and
you need to take these pills. You know, you're taking
essentially speed to stay thin, and then they want you
to go to sleep and come to work the next day.
And it's just like pills to stay awake, pills to
go to sleep, pills for your anxiety, this, that, and
the other. And they didn't have They were saying that
(14:54):
there's a possibility that she had bipolar disease or something
like that, and they didn't really have any great drugs
back then that they have now to be able to
treat those types of things. And when you give patients,
especially who should be on antipsychotics, you give them other
kinds of medications that could just exacerbate their symptoms. So
they were just she would come up with one thing
(15:16):
and they'd mask it with another. And when you look
at the levels of medication that were not only in
her body that but were prescribed to her at the
same time, how could a regular person ever know that
they were supposed to take that much or not. Like
it's just it's a sad situation. But I think what
we could learn about the autopsy is like and we
(15:36):
were just talking about this with the Gene Hackman autopsy,
for example, and when I was saying a couple episodes back,
how I thought that they did such a thorough job
because you don't want anyone like me or even just
anybody going in there and picking apart your report and
being like, did you check this? What about this? What
about this? Because it leaves holes open and then it
(15:57):
makes people question your results.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Well, I thought this was interesting too, when you were
talking about on last week's episode about Jim Morrison and
how they didn't do toxicology or anything on him, because
we clearly had it in nineteen sixty two when her
death occurred, So why wasn't this done almost ten years later? Exactly?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
So okay, So another which and there's a lot of
like intermingling with all of these celebrities, which is also
super unusual. So one of the next high profile celebrity
deaths he did was on Bobby Kennedy, right, And and
(16:38):
that one I think because he got heat from the
Marilyn Monroe autopsy not being the best thing. Ever, when
he did the body Bobby Kennedy one, I think he
learned his lesson a little bit from the Marilyn Monroe autopsy,
and he did a thorough six hour autopsy on him,
(16:58):
which many fragns it people have said has was like
a perfect autopsy.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Right, Wait, so how like how long would a normal
autopsy because I don't know that in my mind it
would take all day. So why is six hours so long?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
It? Six hours, in my opinion, is a very long
time for an autopsy. They could be very very fast.
They could be as as fast as an hour if
you could figure out how the person died. But when
if you want to take the organs out and you
really want to go through and document every single inch
of their body from their head to their toe and
(17:34):
look at every organ and document it and photograph it
and measure it, it could take a long time. And
six and a half hours is like if we did
autopsies at children's hospital, they would take that long because
you're you're looking at a terrible situation for parents. Plus
you're looking to see if they have any underlying congenital
(17:55):
issues that may affect if the parents want to have
another baby, and things like that. You have to be
way more meticulous with a child autopsy. But six and
a half hours for an adult is a lot. So
when I hear that, I'm like, Okay, this guy was
not messing around when he did this autopsy. He was
just like, they're not going to find anything wrong with this,
(18:16):
And it seems like it seems like they didn't. Right
like they Most people thought that he did a really
good job with this. Yeah, And I also in the
book it kind of gets into how he started the
autopsy at the feet, and a lot of people thought
this was unusual. So I wanted your perspective on this.
I well, when you're talking about doing the autopsy, it's
(18:40):
especially with defeat, you would there would be rare cases
where you would actually ever cut a person open down there.
So you're talking about the external exam starting, and I
don't have a problem with that if that was just
what he wanted to do, to go up versus go down,
because there's different things you're looking for on the external exam.
(19:00):
Number one is is this person who they who they're
supposed to be. Does it look like their age, does
it match their driver's license, does you know all of
that kind of stuff. Then you're looking for general changes
associated with death, so you would think about, uh, like
rigor mortis and libra mortis and and different things like that,
(19:22):
any medical kind of intervention that they might have looked
like they had our medical condition that you know, are
they jaundice or things like that that might clue you
into why they died. And then you're going to look
for signs of any kind of trauma that might be
associated with either a medical intervention or if somebody hurt it,
hurt them or hurt themselves. So, especially when you're talking
(19:43):
about an autopsy of someone of Bobby Kennedy's stature and
then our status, and also you just don't want to
You definitely don't want to screw anything up with that
because not only that it was a homicide, it took
place on it was live on TV, right, they have
video of it. There's going to be someone that's going
(20:06):
to get convicted of this. If they get caught, they
want to make sure that they're doing a thorough job.
So from his autopsy, he determined, which is really interesting,
that the fatal shot was to the back of Bobby
Kennedy's head behind his right ear, and they he said
that it was no more than seventy five millimeters away,
(20:29):
which is pretty close to have the gun to the head. Now,
the problem is is that none of the witnesses reported
seeing the guy Saransern, who was actually convicted of this
crime that close to his head. And there's multiple theories,
and most people would agree at this point that they
believed that there were two different gunmen just because there
(20:50):
were way too many bullets found at this scene that
wouldn't even fit in one gun. So I'm curious when
those were get released of any more of that. But
there is a person in prison serving time for this
who definitely did shoot him, but they believe they believe
conspiracy theorists. I guess I would say believe that he
(21:13):
was not the person that actually fired the fatal shot
that killed him. And it's just really interesting because Nagoshi
also didn't really say He pointed out himself in his
memoir that he never officially ruled that he thought that
Saram was the fatal shot.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, he definitely had doubts about that based on the
evidence he was reviewing.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, And one other interesting thing I want to bring
out about Bobby Kennedy's autopsy is that he was visiting California.
He was not from California, and the autopsy automatically because
of jurisdiction, goes to that medical examiner's office. But Bobby
Kennedy's family wanted him to get flown back to Washington,
d C. To have his autopsy done, which I think
(22:01):
is interesting because with JFK a similar thing happened where
he was supposed to get his autopsy done in Dallas
because that was the jurisdiction of where he died, and
they insisted on flying him back to Washington, D C.
And that's when he had that botched autopsy done, which
is again leaving all of these conspiracy theories wide open.
(22:23):
So it's interesting to me that his family would want
to do that again, almost to not have the person
that was supposed to be doing it. But ultimately, when
a medical examiner has jurisdiction over a body, they could
really just be like no, like we're the law, we're
in charge, and we're doing it. So they were very
stern about it, and that's how negoti ended up doing
(22:44):
Bobby Kennedy's autopsy.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Well, why would you even risk moving the body when
it's such a high profile person.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Well, I mean the moving of the body is I mean,
the moving of the body is not necessarily the problem.
It's just like, why why would you have it done
somewhere else by someone that's not listen. I could say
this with every single situation of again, this VIP treatment.
When you don't follow the normal procedure, whether you're in
(23:14):
the hospital and you're taking care of patients that are
getting surgery or if you're doing autopsies, if you're not
doing what you would do for every other regular person,
that's when shit gets screwed up, and it's just like
the best thing ever is to just let it go
how it would go for any regular person when it
comes to medicine and death investigation. That's my personal opinion.
(23:36):
And I could say that because I've done hundreds of
these celebrity death dissections and high profile death dissections, and
you could see that all of the times that there's
all these questions and all of these botched autopsies have
to do with people not following protocol.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
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(24:23):
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Speaker 2 (24:42):
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Speaker 1 (24:48):
So now he's negoti is like a well known figure
at this point that's been on TV a lot talking
about these higher profile celebrity deaths that he's done autopsies on.
So now people are starting to know who this guy
is and what happened in his personal life or his
work life. So because he was constantly in the press,
(25:09):
he was also trying to take this opportunity to let
everybody know how underfunded their department was and how they
just didn't have enough resources, which really pissed his bosses off.
So this became this whole problem where after that, you know,
he was facing some racism with being Japanese in a
post World War two era, and then mixed with him
(25:30):
complaining about the department publicly and not dealing with it privately.
They were kind of just like, we're over you. So
they went to him and they were like, listen, you're
gonna resign because we have evidence which came out.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Later to be false. They were trying to say that
they had evidence that he was on amphetamines, and he
was acting erratic during RFK and he was botching parts
of the autopsy. So ultimately he didn't think he had
a chance at winning, and he did sign the resignation papers.
But then after a conversation with his wife and some
supporters of him, he's like, why am I going to resign?
I haven't done anything wrong. And so there was these
(26:05):
hearings that were constantly in the press, and this really
launched him into his own celebrity because these hearings were
a huge deal in the news.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
So what's interesting about these hearings is that he hired
his defense lawyer. His name was Godfrey Isaac, and that
lawyer later became an attorney for Sarron Sarn the one
who was convicted of killing Robert Kennedy. He became his
attorney after he was convicted. Isn't that kind of interesting
(26:38):
and weird? Yet, I'm telling you, there's a lot of
interconnections with all of these cases.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
How was it not like a conflict of interest?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I really I don't understand. So he got accused of
all this stuff, and what happened after those hearings?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
So after the hearings, I mean, they totally proved that
there was racism, and they had been making things up,
and the board had been trying to work to turn
his coworkers against him, and he ultimately got reinstated in
nineteen sixty nine and got his job back because he
proved he did nothing wrong and it was like all bullshit.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Basically after he was he was essentially they tried to
fire him or make him quit, and then he was reinstated.
Yet another high profile death happens, which is Sharon Tate.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah. So an interesting point that the book brought up
is that they were saying that he got called to
the scene of Sharon Tate's murders, which of course the
press knows when the chief coroner shows up, It's like
a really big deal. So I of course had a
question for you, is that a really big deal because
I assume that they're busy and they don't have time
to go to every single scene in their district. Yeah,
(27:49):
they definitely don't, and they only go to ones that
are a higher profile. So for example, in Philadelphia, I
recall during the time that I was involved there there
was you know, that's why they have death investigators like
Joseph Scott Morgan and stuff go on the scene, take pictures,
do the interviews and everything like that. But in Philadelphia
(28:11):
there was a case where there was an Amtrak derailment,
you remember that, So that would be a case where
the chief Medical Examiner shows up to the scene because
it's super high profile, it's on the news every people died,
they wanted you know what I mean, like stuff like that.
They wouldn't just go to to any scene. Obviously, the
(28:37):
Sharon Tate thing was outrageous, so that's why the chief
medical Examiner showed up because that was going to be
a huge deal. Yeah, And I think for me, so
I'm always trying to pinpoint when this like huge true
crime fascination started, right, we could always argue it could
be back to Sherlock Holmes and everything, But I'm thinking
of the modern celebrity death that we know today, and
(28:58):
I always personally point that to the OJ trials. But
I think the book makes a really good argument that
the Manson murders really changed the culture of celebrity death
with entertainment and news because it was this huge deal.
She was this huge star married to Roman Polancy, this
enormous director that had these big movies out at the time.
And then you have this guy who after this crime
(29:19):
gets deemed the coroner to the stars come out and
he's just constantly in the press because of how high
profile the cases are. Then you find out it's like
this ritualistic cult behind the whole thing. I mean, this
must have been huge at the time.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
This needs to talk to mo mom about this.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
She doesn't. I was just about to say that because
when I was like doing a lot of research on
Ted Bundy a couple of years ago, for example, I
was like, what was it like? She because you're I
can remember because.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
You're thinking about it from a person living in twenty
twenty five's perspective. They didn't have the internet, they only
had the news on once a day. I'm not even
sure they had the local news at that time. Like,
it just was a different They probably barely knew that
a lot of this was going on. They might have
heard of it, but there wasn't like the twenty four
hour news cycle alerts coming across your phone. It just
(30:09):
was a different time. What year did Charantate happen?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Nineteen sixty nine?
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Okay, so in nineteen sixty nine, she was like not
even twenty years old. Yet you have to think about
that too, Like she was not she was a teenager.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah we're talking about mom. I'm not Charantyate. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Oh no, yeah, we're talking about mama. But I mean
just true crime was just different back in the day.
So all right, So after the Charentate thing happens, now
doctor Gooshi becomes a celebrity himself, and this is where
I believe things really started to take a turn at
not only with him, but at the LA Coroner's office
(30:49):
because he was more he was getting a big head
because of his own celebrity.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, I mean you could really see after this time
that he kind of is on this high horse after
winning the hearings, and then Sharon Taa gets murdered not
that long after his job's reinstated, so he's constantly in
the press, and then by this point he just starts
completely overstepping. He starts telling reporters information about the case
before meeting with other law enforcement departments to discuss what's
(31:18):
going on, and before toxicology's back, and before any of
the exams are not exams, but the autopsies are completed
and the reports are completed.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Well, you know what's interesting now that you just say this,
this makes me think of, you know, when when Gene
Hackman just died and it's like everybody wants to be
the first to jump on top of it, and he
was kind of the original one that started that, like,
we have to get the information out before the body
is while the body's still warm, you know. And I
think that that's what happened in that with him, is
(31:51):
that he just wanted to be like, I'm the guy
disseminating the information and I know everything, and.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah, but then like moving forward in his career, this
ended up being a major problem because he was saying
inaccurate information in cases like Natalie would He's just totally
talking out of turn and just saying things that he
doesn't even know are factually true yet because the reports
aren't completed.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
So Natalie Wood's a really good one because ultimately I
think that that case was the one that really started
taking him down basically. But I mean, for all of
you who are not super familiar, Natalie Wood had died
in the early eighties, I believe right.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
It was the early eighties, and she was.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
On a boat with Christopher Walken and Robert Wagner, who
was her husband, and they were just having this night
like as usual, and all of a sudden, she ended
up in the water and dead. So so Negosti again
did Natalie Wood's autopsy and had said that she died
(33:02):
from drowning. So there was all of these different theories
as to well, why was she in the water because
her sister insisted that she didn't know how to swim,
and there's there were these bruises that were apparently on
her body that one of the junior now you're talking
about another junior pathologist at the time, had seen when
he was assisting Nagoshi with the autopsy, who kind of
(33:25):
like blew it off. And there's all of these different
accounts of what happened that night, and there might have
been a fight, and she might have been abused, and
this and this, But what happened was that Nagoshi had
said that she died from an accident because she drank
a little too much. And he went on the news
and talked about how these people were drinking too much
(33:49):
and there might have been a fight between these two
actors and like, you can't like talk shit like that
on TV because when you're friends with Frank Sinatra, right,
He got pissed about that. He was really pissed because
I think he had like I don't know because I
wasn't alive during the time, but he had this like
soft spot from Natalie Wood from the time she was younger,
(34:11):
and a lot of people even talk about how their
their relationship was inappropriate because.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Of go out with his son.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
I don't I don't know, but I don't really know
all the details of that. But he he got so
upset that that he was talking shit like that kind
of on TV. And he wrote this letter and just
said to the Board of Supervisors and was just like
coroners should be seen and not heard, basically just like
(34:40):
you you do your job, and like we don't want
to hear your opinions about it. He was stepping out
of bounds. He wasn't like a celebrity gossip reporter, and
a lot of this information just was the way he
was talking was just kind of not necessary. And and
you have to think, like two people will Christopher Walking
and Robert Wagner were still alive and had a reputation
(35:03):
as actors.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
So yeah, And when Christopher Walken was asked about Nogucci's
comments related to Natalie Wood, he said, I don't remember
the coroner being there to the press, which is like,
if you, dude, you weren't even there and you're just
talking out a turn stop, just assuming what happened.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, And I mean listen, like a lot of people
have been trying to reopen this case because people aren't
just like satisfied with the fact that she accidentally died
and we may never know. I made a joke yesterday
somebody or or recently a couple of weeks ago, somebody
asked a question after one of our episodes that said,
(35:41):
what did they ask? What would you ask somebody if
they die? Yeah or something? And I yeah, And then
I was just like, well, I don't know if Christopher
walkin dies or Robert Wagner, you might want to ask
them what happened to Natalie Wood that night? Right, So
we might we might not ever know. But back in
twenty twelve, the La County Chief Coroner, so this is
(36:03):
the person that had taken over for not even had
directly taken over Nogucci's, but is in that spot. In
twenty twelve, had amended Natalie Wood's death certificate and changed
the cause of death or the cause of death from
accidental drowning to drowning and undetermined factors. And the reason
that that's important is because now that death certificate is
(36:26):
reflecting that basically they don't know if she was intentionally
pushed in the water or if she accidentally drowned and
was in the water. And that's important to the family.
I mean, I know, it really doesn't change anything, but
the family likes to have that satisfaction to you know,
don't close it off when there's all this other suspicious
stuff that was happening, including you know, them thinking that
(36:49):
the autopsy wasn't done correctly as well.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Okay, yeah, and so around this time, right before Natalie
Wood died, there was this other case of Ron settles,
who is this upcoming foot a star who had been
killed while he was in police custody. And during this time,
Noguji accidentally revealed to somebody in the press that he
had lost a major piece of evidence, which was the
victim shirt. And then the La Times was like, you
(37:14):
know what, We're gonna start doing an investigation about this
because this guy's always in the press and we're just
hearing some complaints about what's going on in the office.
So I guess when after Sharon Tate, he just started
being so focused on being in the press that he
was letting the daily operation slip, constantly getting complaints. He
actually ended up getting divorced because his wife was like,
(37:36):
you're just like not the guy a bit.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, you're like a rock star and this is going
to your head.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
A little bit. Yeah. So when the La Times does
their investigation, they find that there's just like bodies piled up,
there's mislabeling of evidence, they have unqualified staff, there was
cross contamination with blood samples. Another thing I thought was
really interesting was he really pushed for this new forensic
facility and then it did it eventually end up getting
(38:01):
built and they had equipment that was so new that
nobody that worked there knew how to use it, which
contributed to Yeah, and it contributed to a lot of
these problems. So then when all this stuff's going on,
it's nineteen eighty one, and then we fast forward to
March of nineteen eighty two, and by this point, the
La Times article comes out, and again the board is like,
we need to suspend you again, but this time we
(38:24):
really have proof that you did all these things, and
they did an investigation and ultimately he did end up
getting fired. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
And I think it's interesting though that I think that
Frank Sinatra kind of like spearheaded that whole entire thing
because he was just like, I mean, that guy had
pull and ties to people and everything like that, and
I think between his complaint and them actually being able
to find all of these things that this guy was
screwing up, they they were just like not having it.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
So I think all in all, even though he got fired,
a lot of his colleagues did really respect his work
and thought that he was a really good pathologist. But
at the end of the day, you can't let things slip,
and you certainly can't lose evidence and let you know,
samples get cross contaminated, because that matters when it comes
to somebody going on trial or like in your case,
him saying with Natalie Wood that she accidentally slipped when
(39:16):
they really don't have enough evidence to determine that.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Could you imagine I mean we're just talking about the
celebrity deaths right now, but could you imagine like the
real all of the real life people that died in
this time period in Los Angeles? Like I would if
that was my family, I'd be so skeptical because of
all the craziness that was going on there at the time,
and thinking that the guy in charge is just like
more concerned with being famous than actually taking care of
(39:42):
death and being you know, if you think about it,
like most of the time, you don't really know who
the medical examiner is anywhere because they're usually in a
basement doing autopsies. Right, They're not all celebrity people there.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
The only two I can name off the top of
my head with us doing this amount of research is
this guy and doctor g medical examiner. Which is she
even considered a coroner?
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yeah, well, she's a medical examiner, and it just the
word coroner is different throughout the country, coroner is is
typically a position that's elected, as opposed to a medical
examiner is appointed. But I believe in Los Angeles, I'm
not sure that that coroner is elected. It might be well,
I guess that board that what's his name Frank Sinatra
(40:27):
went to was the people that appoint the medical examiner.
So but yes, she's she's a forensic pathologist. That so,
yes she is. And she worked the famous the Kaylee
Anthony case in Florida. There. She she's awesome. I love
that lady. But like doctor Boden and stuff, but the
only well, doctor g had a TV show, so yeah,
(40:49):
between that and yeah, but but in general, like throughout
the country, you don't really know who these people were.
And I think it was determined that like, yes, he
definitely had developed an image of corner the Stars, and
they officially got rid of him at that point. I
think that you guys will really like this book. I mean,
(41:10):
if you are interested in what me and Maria had
been talking about, because there are other cases that they
that she goes more in depth with. Obviously, I don't know.
I think it sums up my theory of the VIP doctors.
Usually in the celebrity death dissections. We talk about in
the grosser room. The VIP doctors are the ones that
are taking care of the celebrities, but this time it's
(41:33):
a VIP corner, and we see that that doesn't go
so well either when celebrities get different treatment than regular
people do. So I think it's just like a good
lesson for overall that you don't really want to have
VIP treatment when you die or you're sick.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Yeah. Absolutely, But this book comes out in April twenty second,
so I think you guys will definitely be interested.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder,
my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a
master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
I am not a doctor, and I have not diagnosed
or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
(42:24):
media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed
in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
(42:47):
a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, you,
and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks
Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk Hi. Everyone.
Welcome to Mother Knows Death. One of the advantages to
this job and having this position on this podcast is
(00:28):
that we get advanced copies of people's books. And we
recently received a copy of a book by an author
named doctor Ann Sue Chen who came out with well,
she didn't come out with it yet. It's coming out
on when's it coming out?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
April twenty second.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
April twenty second, So it's in the works, but we
had a copy of it. We're able to read it,
and it is titled La Coroner, Thomas Negucci and Death
in Hollywood. And you guys will love this because we
think the juiciest subjects on this show are the celebrity deaths,
and there's a lot of them in this book.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah. So I actually read this book in about two days,
and I thought it was a pretty easy read and
definitely kept my attention the entire time. Just briefly, it
goes over the career of doctor Thomas Negucci, who is
the chief coroner in La County. Between nineteen sixty seven
and nineteen eighty two. He had a brief suspension in
nineteen sixty nine, which we'll talk about a little bit
(01:24):
in this episode and goes into more detail in the book.
But crazy enough, he is still alive at ninety years
old and he inspired the TV show Quincy's That's really cool. Yeah,
So we're going to start off talking about the deaths
of Marilyn Monroe and getting another one such as Bobby Kennedy,
Sharon Tate, and Natalie Wood.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Let's talk about this for a second, because I just
think by by proxy, like you, if you work in
Los Angeles and you're either a cop, a firefighter, an
EMS person, or you're a coroner, you're going to see
the most celebrities of any other offices in the entire country,
(02:05):
just because most of the celebrities are either working in
Los Angeles or living in Los Angeles. And what happens is,
especially when it comes to coroners and where your autopsy
is done. If you die, it's done by jurisdiction. So
Marilyn Monroe, she had died in Los Angeles and the
jurisdiction is the Los Angeles Coroner's Office, So there are
(02:27):
going to be the ones that do the autopsy. And
that's almost across the country. Is where you die is
where you have the autopsy. It doesn't necessarily matter where
you're from, it's where you die. So even actors that
are visiting Hollywood that die would still get the autopsy
done at the LA Coroner's office, which is why we
(02:47):
hear that they're involved in so many celebrity deaths. So
let's start off first by talking about Marilyn Monroe. So
we did a celebrity death dissection in the gross room
probably five years ago. She was one of the first
ones I've ever did in the groceryroom. So Nogucci, he's
(03:09):
a what was he like a a junior pathologist at
the time. He was just newly working there at the
Medical Examiner's office there in Los Angeles, and he went
to work as usual that Monday, it was August fifth,
nineteen sixty two, and on his desk he found a
message from the Chief Medical Examiner. So the chief medical
(03:32):
Examiner is kind of the boss that overlooks all of
the other medical examiners underneath of them, and it said,
quote doctor Kurfey wants doctor Nagochi to do the autopsy
on Marilyn Monroe, which I kind of think is kind
of interesting that the chief medical examiner would not be
the one that was like, I'm putting my name on
(03:53):
this because this is going to be a big frickin' deal.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Well, do you think that's maybe why he didn't, because
he knew this was going to be such a problem
and he didn't want to be associated with it.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, I'm sure, I think so. There's two different things
that I could think of. It's either that or maybe
Nogucci at that time had such a good reputation for
being meticulous and being able to determine cause of death
that maybe he felt he felt that he would be
the best to do it. Although I'm sure I'm sure
(04:25):
it's the former. Like you understand, I just think it's
a little unusual. Most high profile cases, the chief will
be like, Okay, I'll be the one that steps in
on this. So Marilyn was so anybody that listens to
the show probably knows the deal, and we don't have
to get super into all of the details, but there
(04:48):
were some suspicious findings immediately with just how the whole
thing went down. She was found dead, She was naked,
which is unusual, She was in a weird unnatural position
with her right hand gripping the telephone receiver as if
somebody was intentionally trying to set her up to look
that way. And there were bottles containing sleeping pills on
(05:10):
the bedside, so that was unusual. And then there was
also do you remember there was like some unusual things
with the way the housekeeper acted to Apparently the housekeeper
had called her psychiatrist before calling police, and like a
whole entire hour before calling police. And then when the
(05:32):
police showed up, the housekeeper, who was also considered to
be Marilyn Monroe's friend, had had a load of wash running,
which is unusual. Like if you're a housekeeper living with
a person taking care of them, in friends with a person,
why on earth would you think about doing a load
of wash while this person's laying dead and the police
are there investigating their death. It's just bizarre.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I could she have thrown it in before she found
her No.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I think that they determined that whatever time of the
cycle it was, that it was done after they determined
that she had died. So there was just like a
little bit of weirdness around there. So I mean, and
it's Marilyn Monroe and and and there's a million things.
So he gets the body to the medical examiner's office
(06:18):
and he does the autopsy, and he said that nothing
really looked abnormal about her organs. Whenever you find someone dead.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Who's she was, how old was she?
Speaker 1 (06:30):
She was young?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
She was young.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
She was young. Yeah, look that up exactly, because she
was either in her late twenties or early thirties, but
she was very young. You find somebody dead that has
now Marilyn Monroe has a history of previous suicide attempts,
a history of taking these medications. So whenever you see that,
you see the pills at the bedside, you're thinking, okay,
(06:53):
it's possible that she did take her own life. So
he does the autopsy, and of course he's thinking as
well when he does it. But then when he gets
to her stomach, he finds nothing in her stomach, which
means that she didn't swallow a whole bunch of pills
and then die. That didn't happen because he didn't find
any undigested pills in her upper gi track like that.
(07:16):
And that's something that you would see when somebody was
having an act of desperation and just taking a lot
of pills at one time, so he thought that that
was a little weird and did question it. But he
sent all of this stuff to get tested for toxicology,
which would include samples of her liver, blood and things
(07:37):
like that, and the toxicology came back and there was
this head toxicologist and he had said that the levels
of pentobarbital and chlorohydrate were fatal and they decided based
on that that she died of a drug overdose and
her manner of death was suicide. Now, the thing that
(08:02):
doctor Nagochi had brought up in the future was that
he was, like we said, he was a junior pathologist.
He didn't have any experience or say in much because
he didn't want to question this chief toxicologist that had
all this experience over him. But he was kind of
thinking it was a little weird that they didn't run
the toxicology on the actual stomach contents as well as
(08:26):
other organs that he had asked them to do, and
they kind of blew them off to do like a
more thorough autopsy just to cross off any concern that
there might be. So that was one of the things
that started being concerning to people as far as them
just automatically saying that she died of suicide. And sometimes
(08:50):
when you determine, because when anybody overdoses on any kind
of drugs, whether it's legal drugs or prescription drugs, you
always have to take into consideration some of the circumstances
that will determine if the manner of death was an accident,
or if the manner of death was suicide, or if
the manner of death was homicide, which we'll get into
(09:13):
a minute with that because that sounds a little weird,
but with suicide you will check. So she did have
a history of previous suicide attempts, which is very strong,
but there was no suicide note and there were no
undigestive pills in her stomach, So that has to make
you think like, Okay, this didn't seem like an acute
thing that she that she killed herself, so let's look
(09:36):
at other things that could be done. So the next
thing you're going to look at is okay, okay, well
was this an accident? Did she maybe take too many
of these medications together by accident? And now those questions
are really out the window because they didn't check the
stomach contents, so they don't even know if the pills
were digested or if those things were in her system
(09:58):
for a little bit longer. And the reason that I
bring up homicide in this case is because, in my
personal opinion, so we do know that there's been all
of these theories going on for the past however many
years that Marilyn was killed by the Kennedys, that there
(10:18):
was something associated with the Kennedys.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Well, you really can't ignore the connection to them, and they're,
you know, infamous curse that everybody no.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
I yeah, and I'm not. But but based upon what
I see, I honestly would say that her manner of
death should be homicide, but not because of the Kennedy's involvement,
but because of It's kind of like a Michael Jackson
case in which Marilyn Monroe had inappropriate relationships with her
(10:48):
doctors getting VIP treatment medications she shouldn't be on. She
had a strong family history of psychological disease, personal family
history of psychological disease, and then it was like she
had a personal physician and a psychiatrist that were not
in great communication with each other about what medications they
were giving her, and she was over over over medicated,
(11:11):
and that is my opinion as to how she died.
She just had way too many drugs in her system.
And I personally don't believe that she intended to kill
herself based upon the way the whole scene was set up.
I think once now, listen, this is why I think
a shady like if that if the housekeeper called the
(11:32):
psychiatrist first and they were on the phone and talking
for over an hour before they called police, I actually
think it's possible that the psychiatrist had like a meltdown
because she was dead, and then all of a sudden
was like, oh my God, like this is going to
be on me. And then somehow the housekeeper was told
to like make it seem like she looked like she
(11:53):
killed herself. Honestly, I believe that. Now anybody could argue
with me and say whatever, but that's what I think
think that's really what I think happened based upon everything
that I've read so far about it. So I guess,
getting back to the book that you read, what happened
with that, Like after he had done this autopsy on Marilyn,
(12:17):
how was he held in the media and how what
did people think of him after that?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, in the book. It seems like, you know, he
was getting pretty good recognition for the work he did
in the autopsy, except for the botch toxicology like you
were talking about, because even though he was adamant that
he had ordered those tests on all of her organs
and you know, the higher ups just didn't complete them,
it ultimately reflected poorly on him, which also brings back
(12:44):
the point earlier where you were saying, like, why wouldn't
the chief coroner do it? He had to have predicted
in some capacity this was going to be controversial.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I really to just wrap
up Marilyn Monroe. I really believe that if if she
had died in two tenty twenty five, the manner of
death certainly wouldn't have been ruled suicide, and honestly, her
treating physicians would possibly be facing charges and the manner
death might be rolled homicide, similar to what happened with
(13:15):
Michael Jackson, Because I mean, and listen, like, we could
go over so many different celebrity deaths that don't involve
Nogochi that are the same exact situation where the treating
physicians are responsible for these people's deaths.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I mean, if you want to think at about the
sixties too, sorry to cut you off. I just like,
I think this part of pop culture when we talk
about the sixties that we were always focusing on is
like the casual pill popping element. And I think that
maybe you're suggesting this too, that like the doctors are
just not being held responsible for this because it was
just so common to go and get pills, and you know,
(13:53):
it's this like joke and all these shows we watched,
like Madmen and Palm Royale and everything, that these women
are just so casually popping pills, and that seemed like
the culture she was participating in too, So it doesn't
seem like anybody being held responsible.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, and I can't imagine, Like I just think she
had a level of fame that was that was unlike
any other and attention, and it's just if you're walking
into a situation like that already mentally unstable, it's just terrible.
And then you know you've heard this from even from
Dorothy with Wizard of Oz and everything, how she had
(14:31):
to take pills to lose weight, and there was just
a lot of pressure on You need to be alert,
you need to be peppy, but then you need to
go home and you need to go to sleep, and
you need to take these pills. You know, you're taking
essentially speed to stay thin, and then they want you
to go to sleep and come to work the next day.
And it's just like pills to stay awake, pills to
go to sleep, pills for your anxiety, this, that, and
the other. And they didn't have They were saying that
(14:54):
there's a possibility that she had bipolar disease or something
like that, and they didn't really have any great drugs
back then that they have now to be able to
treat those types of things. And when you give patients,
especially who should be on antipsychotics, you give them other
kinds of medications that could just exacerbate their symptoms. So
they were just she would come up with one thing
(15:16):
and they'd mask it with another. And when you look
at the levels of medication that were not only in
her body that but were prescribed to her at the
same time, how could a regular person ever know that
they were supposed to take that much or not. Like
it's just it's a sad situation. But I think what
we could learn about the autopsy is like and we
(15:36):
were just talking about this with the Gene Hackman autopsy,
for example, and when I was saying a couple episodes back,
how I thought that they did such a thorough job
because you don't want anyone like me or even just
anybody going in there and picking apart your report and
being like, did you check this? What about this? What
about this? Because it leaves holes open and then it
(15:57):
makes people question your results.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Well, I thought this was interesting too, when you were
talking about on last week's episode about Jim Morrison and
how they didn't do toxicology or anything on him, because
we clearly had it in nineteen sixty two when her
death occurred, So why wasn't this done almost ten years later? Exactly?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
So okay, So another which and there's a lot of
like intermingling with all of these celebrities, which is also
super unusual. So one of the next high profile celebrity
deaths he did was on Bobby Kennedy, right, And and
(16:38):
that one I think because he got heat from the
Marilyn Monroe autopsy not being the best thing. Ever, when
he did the body Bobby Kennedy one, I think he
learned his lesson a little bit from the Marilyn Monroe autopsy,
and he did a thorough six hour autopsy on him,
(16:58):
which many fragns it people have said has was like
a perfect autopsy.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Right, Wait, so how like how long would a normal
autopsy because I don't know that in my mind it
would take all day. So why is six hours so long?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
It? Six hours, in my opinion, is a very long
time for an autopsy. They could be very very fast.
They could be as as fast as an hour if
you could figure out how the person died. But when
if you want to take the organs out and you
really want to go through and document every single inch
of their body from their head to their toe and
(17:34):
look at every organ and document it and photograph it
and measure it, it could take a long time. And
six and a half hours is like if we did
autopsies at children's hospital, they would take that long because
you're you're looking at a terrible situation for parents. Plus
you're looking to see if they have any underlying congenital
(17:55):
issues that may affect if the parents want to have
another baby, and things like that. You have to be
way more meticulous with a child autopsy. But six and
a half hours for an adult is a lot. So
when I hear that, I'm like, Okay, this guy was
not messing around when he did this autopsy. He was
just like, they're not going to find anything wrong with this,
(18:16):
And it seems like it seems like they didn't. Right
like they Most people thought that he did a really
good job with this. Yeah, And I also in the
book it kind of gets into how he started the
autopsy at the feet, and a lot of people thought
this was unusual. So I wanted your perspective on this.
I well, when you're talking about doing the autopsy, it's
(18:40):
especially with defeat, you would there would be rare cases
where you would actually ever cut a person open down there.
So you're talking about the external exam starting, and I
don't have a problem with that if that was just
what he wanted to do, to go up versus go down,
because there's different things you're looking for on the external exam.
(19:00):
Number one is is this person who they who they're
supposed to be. Does it look like their age, does
it match their driver's license, does you know all of
that kind of stuff. Then you're looking for general changes
associated with death, so you would think about, uh, like
rigor mortis and libra mortis and and different things like that,
(19:22):
any medical kind of intervention that they might have looked
like they had our medical condition that you know, are
they jaundice or things like that that might clue you
into why they died. And then you're going to look
for signs of any kind of trauma that might be
associated with either a medical intervention or if somebody hurt it,
hurt them or hurt themselves. So, especially when you're talking
(19:43):
about an autopsy of someone of Bobby Kennedy's stature and
then our status, and also you just don't want to
You definitely don't want to screw anything up with that
because not only that it was a homicide, it took
place on it was live on TV, right, they have
video of it. There's going to be someone that's going
(20:06):
to get convicted of this. If they get caught, they
want to make sure that they're doing a thorough job.
So from his autopsy, he determined, which is really interesting,
that the fatal shot was to the back of Bobby
Kennedy's head behind his right ear, and they he said
that it was no more than seventy five millimeters away,
(20:29):
which is pretty close to have the gun to the head. Now,
the problem is is that none of the witnesses reported
seeing the guy Saransern, who was actually convicted of this
crime that close to his head. And there's multiple theories,
and most people would agree at this point that they
believed that there were two different gunmen just because there
(20:50):
were way too many bullets found at this scene that
wouldn't even fit in one gun. So I'm curious when
those were get released of any more of that. But
there is a person in prison serving time for this
who definitely did shoot him, but they believe they believe
conspiracy theorists. I guess I would say believe that he
(21:13):
was not the person that actually fired the fatal shot
that killed him. And it's just really interesting because Nagoshi
also didn't really say He pointed out himself in his
memoir that he never officially ruled that he thought that
Saram was the fatal shot.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, he definitely had doubts about that based on the
evidence he was reviewing.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, And one other interesting thing I want to bring
out about Bobby Kennedy's autopsy is that he was visiting California.
He was not from California, and the autopsy automatically because
of jurisdiction, goes to that medical examiner's office. But Bobby
Kennedy's family wanted him to get flown back to Washington,
d C. To have his autopsy done, which I think
(22:01):
is interesting because with JFK a similar thing happened where
he was supposed to get his autopsy done in Dallas
because that was the jurisdiction of where he died, and
they insisted on flying him back to Washington, D C.
And that's when he had that botched autopsy done, which
is again leaving all of these conspiracy theories wide open.
(22:23):
So it's interesting to me that his family would want
to do that again, almost to not have the person
that was supposed to be doing it. But ultimately, when
a medical examiner has jurisdiction over a body, they could
really just be like no, like we're the law, we're
in charge, and we're doing it. So they were very
stern about it, and that's how negoti ended up doing
(22:44):
Bobby Kennedy's autopsy.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Well, why would you even risk moving the body when
it's such a high profile person.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Well, I mean the moving of the body is I mean,
the moving of the body is not necessarily the problem.
It's just like, why why would you have it done
somewhere else by someone that's not listen. I could say
this with every single situation of again, this VIP treatment.
When you don't follow the normal procedure, whether you're in
(23:14):
the hospital and you're taking care of patients that are
getting surgery or if you're doing autopsies, if you're not
doing what you would do for every other regular person,
that's when shit gets screwed up, and it's just like
the best thing ever is to just let it go
how it would go for any regular person when it
comes to medicine and death investigation. That's my personal opinion.
(23:36):
And I could say that because I've done hundreds of
these celebrity death dissections and high profile death dissections, and
you could see that all of the times that there's
all these questions and all of these botched autopsies have
to do with people not following protocol.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
This episode is to you by the Grosser Room. Guys.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
The Grossroom is on sale for only twenty dollars for
the whole entire year, which ends up being a little
bit more than a nickel a day, and it's totally
worth it. Because you will have access to thousands of
videos and photos along with all of these stories we
talk about, plus lots of other stories we don't cover
on Mother No's death. We just had a really interesting
(24:23):
case yesterday of a guy who was found dead by
the side of the road and showing what the autopsy
and investigation showed to figure out how they were able
to determine that he really wasn't murdered as they originally thought,
but it was a really just terrific accident. So make
sure you check out the gross Room.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, head over to the grossroom dot com now for
more info and to sign up.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
So now he's negoti is like a well known figure
at this point that's been on TV a lot talking
about these higher profile celebrity deaths that he's done autopsies on.
So now people are starting to know who this guy
is and what happened in his personal life or his
work life. So because he was constantly in the press,
(25:09):
he was also trying to take this opportunity to let
everybody know how underfunded their department was and how they
just didn't have enough resources, which really pissed his bosses off.
So this became this whole problem where after that, you know,
he was facing some racism with being Japanese in a
post World War two era, and then mixed with him
(25:30):
complaining about the department publicly and not dealing with it privately.
They were kind of just like, we're over you. So
they went to him and they were like, listen, you're
gonna resign because we have evidence which came out.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Later to be false. They were trying to say that
they had evidence that he was on amphetamines, and he
was acting erratic during RFK and he was botching parts
of the autopsy. So ultimately he didn't think he had
a chance at winning, and he did sign the resignation papers.
But then after a conversation with his wife and some
supporters of him, he's like, why am I going to resign?
I haven't done anything wrong. And so there was these
(26:05):
hearings that were constantly in the press, and this really
launched him into his own celebrity because these hearings were
a huge deal in the news.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
So what's interesting about these hearings is that he hired
his defense lawyer. His name was Godfrey Isaac, and that
lawyer later became an attorney for Sarron Sarn the one
who was convicted of killing Robert Kennedy. He became his
attorney after he was convicted. Isn't that kind of interesting
(26:38):
and weird? Yet, I'm telling you, there's a lot of
interconnections with all of these cases.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
How was it not like a conflict of interest?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I really I don't understand. So he got accused of
all this stuff, and what happened after those hearings?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
So after the hearings, I mean, they totally proved that
there was racism, and they had been making things up,
and the board had been trying to work to turn
his coworkers against him, and he ultimately got reinstated in
nineteen sixty nine and got his job back because he
proved he did nothing wrong and it was like all bullshit.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Basically after he was he was essentially they tried to
fire him or make him quit, and then he was reinstated.
Yet another high profile death happens, which is Sharon Tate.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah. So an interesting point that the book brought up
is that they were saying that he got called to
the scene of Sharon Tate's murders, which of course the
press knows when the chief coroner shows up, It's like
a really big deal. So I of course had a
question for you, is that a really big deal because
I assume that they're busy and they don't have time
to go to every single scene in their district. Yeah,
(27:49):
they definitely don't, and they only go to ones that
are a higher profile. So for example, in Philadelphia, I
recall during the time that I was involved there there
was you know, that's why they have death investigators like
Joseph Scott Morgan and stuff go on the scene, take pictures,
do the interviews and everything like that. But in Philadelphia
(28:11):
there was a case where there was an Amtrak derailment,
you remember that, So that would be a case where
the chief Medical Examiner shows up to the scene because
it's super high profile, it's on the news every people died,
they wanted you know what I mean, like stuff like that.
They wouldn't just go to to any scene. Obviously, the
(28:37):
Sharon Tate thing was outrageous, so that's why the chief
medical Examiner showed up because that was going to be
a huge deal. Yeah, And I think for me, so
I'm always trying to pinpoint when this like huge true
crime fascination started, right, we could always argue it could
be back to Sherlock Holmes and everything, But I'm thinking
of the modern celebrity death that we know today, and
(28:58):
I always personally point that to the OJ trials. But
I think the book makes a really good argument that
the Manson murders really changed the culture of celebrity death
with entertainment and news because it was this huge deal.
She was this huge star married to Roman Polancy, this
enormous director that had these big movies out at the time.
And then you have this guy who after this crime
(29:19):
gets deemed the coroner to the stars come out and
he's just constantly in the press because of how high
profile the cases are. Then you find out it's like
this ritualistic cult behind the whole thing. I mean, this
must have been huge at the time.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
This needs to talk to mo mom about this.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
She doesn't. I was just about to say that because
when I was like doing a lot of research on
Ted Bundy a couple of years ago, for example, I
was like, what was it like? She because you're I
can remember because.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
You're thinking about it from a person living in twenty
twenty five's perspective. They didn't have the internet, they only
had the news on once a day. I'm not even
sure they had the local news at that time. Like,
it just was a different They probably barely knew that
a lot of this was going on. They might have
heard of it, but there wasn't like the twenty four
hour news cycle alerts coming across your phone. It just
(30:09):
was a different time. What year did Charantate happen?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Nineteen sixty nine?
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Okay, so in nineteen sixty nine, she was like not
even twenty years old. Yet you have to think about
that too, Like she was not she was a teenager.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah we're talking about mom. I'm not Charantyate. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Oh no, yeah, we're talking about mama. But I mean
just true crime was just different back in the day.
So all right, So after the Charentate thing happens, now
doctor Gooshi becomes a celebrity himself, and this is where
I believe things really started to take a turn at
not only with him, but at the LA Coroner's office
(30:49):
because he was more he was getting a big head
because of his own celebrity.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, I mean you could really see after this time
that he kind of is on this high horse after
winning the hearings, and then Sharon Taa gets murdered not
that long after his job's reinstated, so he's constantly in
the press, and then by this point he just starts
completely overstepping. He starts telling reporters information about the case
before meeting with other law enforcement departments to discuss what's
(31:18):
going on, and before toxicology's back, and before any of
the exams are not exams, but the autopsies are completed
and the reports are completed.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Well, you know what's interesting now that you just say this,
this makes me think of, you know, when when Gene
Hackman just died and it's like everybody wants to be
the first to jump on top of it, and he
was kind of the original one that started that, like,
we have to get the information out before the body
is while the body's still warm, you know. And I
think that that's what happened in that with him, is
(31:51):
that he just wanted to be like, I'm the guy
disseminating the information and I know everything, and.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah, but then like moving forward in his career, this
ended up being a major problem because he was saying
inaccurate information in cases like Natalie would He's just totally
talking out of turn and just saying things that he
doesn't even know are factually true yet because the reports
aren't completed.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
So Natalie Wood's a really good one because ultimately I
think that that case was the one that really started
taking him down basically. But I mean, for all of
you who are not super familiar, Natalie Wood had died
in the early eighties, I believe right.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
It was the early eighties, and she was.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
On a boat with Christopher Walken and Robert Wagner, who
was her husband, and they were just having this night
like as usual, and all of a sudden, she ended
up in the water and dead. So so Negosti again
did Natalie Wood's autopsy and had said that she died
(33:02):
from drowning. So there was all of these different theories
as to well, why was she in the water because
her sister insisted that she didn't know how to swim,
and there's there were these bruises that were apparently on
her body that one of the junior now you're talking
about another junior pathologist at the time, had seen when
he was assisting Nagoshi with the autopsy, who kind of
(33:25):
like blew it off. And there's all of these different
accounts of what happened that night, and there might have
been a fight, and she might have been abused, and
this and this, But what happened was that Nagoshi had
said that she died from an accident because she drank
a little too much. And he went on the news
and talked about how these people were drinking too much
(33:49):
and there might have been a fight between these two
actors and like, you can't like talk shit like that
on TV because when you're friends with Frank Sinatra, right,
He got pissed about that. He was really pissed because
I think he had like I don't know because I
wasn't alive during the time, but he had this like
soft spot from Natalie Wood from the time she was younger,
(34:11):
and a lot of people even talk about how their
their relationship was inappropriate because.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Of go out with his son.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
I don't I don't know, but I don't really know
all the details of that. But he he got so
upset that that he was talking shit like that kind
of on TV. And he wrote this letter and just
said to the Board of Supervisors and was just like
coroners should be seen and not heard, basically just like
(34:40):
you you do your job, and like we don't want
to hear your opinions about it. He was stepping out
of bounds. He wasn't like a celebrity gossip reporter, and
a lot of this information just was the way he
was talking was just kind of not necessary. And and
you have to think, like two people will Christopher Walking
and Robert Wagner were still alive and had a reputation
(35:03):
as actors.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
So yeah, And when Christopher Walken was asked about Nogucci's
comments related to Natalie Wood, he said, I don't remember
the coroner being there to the press, which is like,
if you, dude, you weren't even there and you're just
talking out a turn stop, just assuming what happened.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, And I mean listen, like a lot of people
have been trying to reopen this case because people aren't
just like satisfied with the fact that she accidentally died
and we may never know. I made a joke yesterday
somebody or or recently a couple of weeks ago, somebody
asked a question after one of our episodes that said,
(35:41):
what did they ask? What would you ask somebody if
they die? Yeah or something? And I yeah, And then
I was just like, well, I don't know if Christopher
walkin dies or Robert Wagner, you might want to ask
them what happened to Natalie Wood that night? Right, So
we might we might not ever know. But back in
twenty twelve, the La County Chief Coroner, so this is
(36:03):
the person that had taken over for not even had
directly taken over Nogucci's, but is in that spot. In
twenty twelve, had amended Natalie Wood's death certificate and changed
the cause of death or the cause of death from
accidental drowning to drowning and undetermined factors. And the reason
that that's important is because now that death certificate is
(36:26):
reflecting that basically they don't know if she was intentionally
pushed in the water or if she accidentally drowned and
was in the water. And that's important to the family.
I mean, I know, it really doesn't change anything, but
the family likes to have that satisfaction to you know,
don't close it off when there's all this other suspicious
stuff that was happening, including you know, them thinking that
(36:49):
the autopsy wasn't done correctly as well.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Okay, yeah, and so around this time, right before Natalie
Wood died, there was this other case of Ron settles,
who is this upcoming foot a star who had been
killed while he was in police custody. And during this time,
Noguji accidentally revealed to somebody in the press that he
had lost a major piece of evidence, which was the
victim shirt. And then the La Times was like, you
(37:14):
know what, We're gonna start doing an investigation about this
because this guy's always in the press and we're just
hearing some complaints about what's going on in the office.
So I guess when after Sharon Tate, he just started
being so focused on being in the press that he
was letting the daily operation slip, constantly getting complaints. He
actually ended up getting divorced because his wife was like,
(37:36):
you're just like not the guy a bit.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, you're like a rock star and this is going
to your head.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
A little bit. Yeah. So when the La Times does
their investigation, they find that there's just like bodies piled up,
there's mislabeling of evidence, they have unqualified staff, there was
cross contamination with blood samples. Another thing I thought was
really interesting was he really pushed for this new forensic
facility and then it did it eventually end up getting
(38:01):
built and they had equipment that was so new that
nobody that worked there knew how to use it, which
contributed to Yeah, and it contributed to a lot of
these problems. So then when all this stuff's going on,
it's nineteen eighty one, and then we fast forward to
March of nineteen eighty two, and by this point, the
La Times article comes out, and again the board is like,
we need to suspend you again, but this time we
(38:24):
really have proof that you did all these things, and
they did an investigation and ultimately he did end up
getting fired. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
And I think it's interesting though that I think that
Frank Sinatra kind of like spearheaded that whole entire thing
because he was just like, I mean, that guy had
pull and ties to people and everything like that, and
I think between his complaint and them actually being able
to find all of these things that this guy was
screwing up, they they were just like not having it.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
So I think all in all, even though he got fired,
a lot of his colleagues did really respect his work
and thought that he was a really good pathologist. But
at the end of the day, you can't let things slip,
and you certainly can't lose evidence and let you know,
samples get cross contaminated, because that matters when it comes
to somebody going on trial or like in your case,
him saying with Natalie Wood that she accidentally slipped when
(39:16):
they really don't have enough evidence to determine that.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Could you imagine I mean we're just talking about the
celebrity deaths right now, but could you imagine like the
real all of the real life people that died in
this time period in Los Angeles? Like I would if
that was my family, I'd be so skeptical because of
all the craziness that was going on there at the time,
and thinking that the guy in charge is just like
more concerned with being famous than actually taking care of
(39:42):
death and being you know, if you think about it,
like most of the time, you don't really know who
the medical examiner is anywhere because they're usually in a
basement doing autopsies. Right, They're not all celebrity people there.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
The only two I can name off the top of
my head with us doing this amount of research is
this guy and doctor g medical examiner. Which is she
even considered a coroner?
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yeah, well, she's a medical examiner, and it just the
word coroner is different throughout the country, coroner is is
typically a position that's elected, as opposed to a medical
examiner is appointed. But I believe in Los Angeles, I'm
not sure that that coroner is elected. It might be well,
I guess that board that what's his name Frank Sinatra
(40:27):
went to was the people that appoint the medical examiner.
So but yes, she's she's a forensic pathologist. That so,
yes she is. And she worked the famous the Kaylee
Anthony case in Florida. There. She she's awesome. I love
that lady. But like doctor Boden and stuff, but the
only well, doctor g had a TV show, so yeah,
(40:49):
between that and yeah, but but in general, like throughout
the country, you don't really know who these people were.
And I think it was determined that like, yes, he
definitely had developed an image of corner the Stars, and
they officially got rid of him at that point. I
think that you guys will really like this book. I mean,
(41:10):
if you are interested in what me and Maria had
been talking about, because there are other cases that they
that she goes more in depth with. Obviously, I don't know.
I think it sums up my theory of the VIP doctors.
Usually in the celebrity death dissections. We talk about in
the grosser room. The VIP doctors are the ones that
are taking care of the celebrities, but this time it's
(41:33):
a VIP corner, and we see that that doesn't go
so well either when celebrities get different treatment than regular
people do. So I think it's just like a good
lesson for overall that you don't really want to have
VIP treatment when you die or you're sick.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Yeah. Absolutely, But this book comes out in April twenty second,
so I think you guys will definitely be interested.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder,
my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a
master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
I am not a doctor, and I have not diagnosed
or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
(42:24):
media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed
in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
(42:47):
a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, you,
and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks
Hosts And Creators
Nicole Angemi
Maria Q. Kane
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