Today, we are joined by investigator and host of Zone 7 Podcast, Sheryl "Mac" McCollum, to talk about Kohberger's plea deal, the foreman in Karen Read's trial calling for the case to be reopened, the ongoing verdict watch for Diddy, and the sniper attack on firefighters.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Mother Knows Dad, starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria QK.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi, everyone, welcome The Mother Knows Death. We have a
special guest with us today on today's episode, Cheryl McCollum.
You may know her from her podcast Zone seven or
from Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She is a crime
scene investigator who specializes in cold cases and his director
and founder of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute. We
(00:42):
did an external exam with Cheryl over a year ago,
so if you guys are interested in hearing about her
career and how she got to where she's at now,
go ahead and listen to that. It was about last April.
But on today's episode, we're going to talk to Cheryl
about her thoughts on this shocking Brian Coberger plea deal. Well,
we might get into a little Diddy, we might get
(01:02):
into a little Karen Reid, as well as other news stories. Hi, Cheryl,
Welcome The Mother Knows Death Again.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Hey, honey, I could wait to get on here today.
My word, I mean, what in the world is happening
this week?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I don't know what we need to first start off
talking about this coburger situation because I was not expecting
that even a little bit. So that came out of nowhere.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Oh my god. Yeah, I mean, here's what I did know.
I knew the defense had nothing. Zero. There was nothing
they could do to counter the evidence. They had the DNA,
the ninth sheet, the cell phone, the cell phone going
into airplane mode, his own carr driving around and around
(01:51):
and around the house. But to take the death penalty
off the table, that to me came from nowhere.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Oh sure, And Cheryl, what the breaking news. I opened
Instagram and saw your post and was like, oh, I
can't believe.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yes, and go and here's the thing. I mean, Oh
my gosh, these families. I mean, you have four families
that have just been tortured by this guy. He's not
gonna tell anything. It wasn't him, he didn't do it.
He was out hiking looking at stars, which we knew
(02:28):
was garbage. But then on a weekend he's gonna say, hey,
you know, go see if they'll make a deal. And
then the families get an email that blew my mind.
I will say that that should have been an in person.
Let's all get together. I mean I had a buddy,
(02:51):
she found out her husband wanted out of their marriage
over an email, and I told her what a pos
he was. So that ain't this? I mean, these are
your children. You should have been handled with care and
concern and it should have been explained to them why
you would even entertain this? And I think, why do
(03:13):
you think?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Why do you think that they would have even done this?
If the evidence seemed to be so strong.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, there's some positives to it. I mean, they're not
victim centered, but there are some positives for the entire community.
Number one, there's gonna be a killer off the street period.
Number two is gonna save them about a million dollars.
Then you've got no appeals. When this is done, it's done.
(03:43):
If he were to go to trial be given the
death penalty, he would appeal for twenty years. Well that
means they're never gonna, you know, not have this on
their plate. This would cost them, you know, a whole
bunch of money every two years he would be fighting
some appeal. I mean, the Scott Peterson with a ridiculous van,
(04:07):
I mean, it never ends for that family.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Where exactly what I said on our show earlier today,
I was like, if you could ask Lacy Peterson's mom,
if she could go back in time, and I bet
you she would choose this because now there's a possibility
that he might get out.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
That's right, go into trial. There's a possibility. It takes
one bad juror it takes one misstep for the prosecution,
it takes one maneuver and you've got a mistrial or
a not guilty. I mean, you don't want to risk
that in a case. That's important, But again it needs
(04:46):
to be discussed before, not later. Like you're coming to
Atlanta to visit me. If I said, hey, I've got
a great airbnb for y'all, the family's gonna love it.
You're gonna be so comfortable, and you up and it's
a shot, you're gonna be like, Okay, you really kind
of need to tell me this is gonna be wilderness
(05:07):
camp before I got here. Yeah, cause you might be
expecting a five star something and there ain't no Egypti
sheets in their honey. Well, it's gonna change your whole
for you. So again, all of those family members, the
siblings included, the two surviving roommates included, everybody should have
(05:29):
been in a room and everybody should understand, Hey, this
has brought to me This is what I'm considering.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
And here's why, from what you've seen in your experience,
is is it weird that they haven't involved the family
more because it seems like with the gag order, they're
just telling them they're not allowed to talk. So they
haven't talked because they didn't want to ruin the case.
But there's been leaks and maybe that's a reason why
(05:57):
they're thinking, you know, the public's finding out way too
much information.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Well, Joe Scott brought up this point too, that Dateline
could possibly compromise the keyse with the information they released.
And now we have this docuseriies coming out on the
eleventh that we don't even know what's in that yet.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, we're gonna say, we're gonna be in Atlanta with
you when that one comes out.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
We're gonna have a good time. Listen, let me just
put that to rest. Think of all the books and
magazine articles and newspaper and documentaries and movies on Natalie Holloway,
you can still go to TRILL. You can if they
suddenly were able to get some conclusive DNA on John
bin A Ramsey, they could go to TRILL. So I'm
(06:39):
not worried about dateline. I'm not worried about the leaks
because here's the deal. I don't think anything has come
out that any of us have said, what that's crazy.
The only thing I took issue with that I call
bs on is when they came out and said that
Ethan's leg was carved. Here's why you don't stab a
(07:04):
Thanksgiving turkey. You carve it. There's precision, there's a method
to it. It's control. That's not what happened to that chat.
He was not carved. I would put my reputation on it.
There's no way that happened. The two victims upstairs were
(07:25):
brutally attacked in a knife willed and crazed killer. Xana
was chased on the stairs. Ethan was faced down in
a sleeve. I mean, he wasn't even involved in any
way when he was attacked, So he was not carved.
(07:45):
I don't believe that. I think that this person was
just in that zone and he did what he did
in a manner that was not controlled. I just I
don't believe.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Carving seems like something that would take a little bit
more time. Not that it would take time, but it's
it's something else would purposely do. Yeah, I think that
they just misspoke that Maybe I don't know, he stabbed
him to death on the way out, just took the
knife and kind of gashed his leg again because you.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Know, I would love to give somebody an owl. But
I think that was a deliberate comment to get the
reaction they knew that it would get. There's been nothing new,
there's been nothing about the victims that has come out
in the last little bit. Then all of a sudden,
carved and that's going to just send people straight out
(08:41):
because that's a different gig, that's a different crumb. So
we have a crime in Atlanta where a young lady
was murdered, but then the killer took extra time and
carved letters into her body. That is a carve it.
It does take extra time because it's controlled. If you're
(09:03):
just getting to be away from you, there's no control
where you're aiming. You're just trying to get the bug
away from you. If you are watching and you've got
a tennis racket, you're gonna hit a bumblebee. That's more controlled,
but it does take more time. Does that make sense
to you.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, I mean it's you ran out of there and
by all accounts there was. He was not there long
at all.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
There's no way he in a frenzy killed three females
and then with Oh, I'm gonna take my tongue and
really carve this guy up. Yeah, didn't happen. And it's
upsetting to people, Like again, you've got parents sitting there
that are getting their information from who, some reporter, some
(09:48):
true grind personalities, some you know, media person that's not okay.
Nobody should have broke that case but them. Oh yeah,
in my opinion, no, Nicole should know about your children
more than you.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Period agree. I agree with you, And like, so, so
what now, I mean, are we ever going to because
I was waiting for the trial to hear about the autopsies,
just because that says a lot about the psychology of
what was happening there, I mean, overkill and all that,
you know, are we ever going to hear anything about that?
(10:31):
What his motive was? Does he have to say any
of that stuff?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
If it's the right judge, it's going to make the
right call. Absolutely So, if you ever saw any of
the trial of BTK, he had to say exactly what
he did, in the order he did it, and how
he did it so to me, if you're going to
accept a guilty plea of a murder and a second murder,
(10:57):
and a third murder and a fourth murder, each family
deserves to have that information. Each family deserves to hear
this is what I did, This is how I did it,
This is how I picked the house, This is how
many times I rode by there. Yes, I bought the
nine on Amazon, all the things we already know. No,
(11:18):
I've never killed before, which is what I believe. And
the reason I believe he never killed before is he
ain't good at it. I mean, when I used to
work in Zoe three in Atlanta, we had an eight
year old drug dealer. Everybody called him Gator. Even Gator
knew not to use his own bicycle.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
So you're gonna use an year old little kid you're
talking about nah, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, but you're talking about I mean, he stole cars,
you know. He he was proud of his craff know
to me, But Gator was eight, But again, he knew
change my shirt where layers throw one shirt off, somebody's
looking for a kid on a bike wearing a red shirt.
That ain't me. My shirt's clearly green, right, but you're
(12:06):
talking about a man supposedly is so brilliant, supposedly studied everybody,
but used his own car and got caught on camera
and then shut his phone on airplane mode. Come on now,
and what's his excuse? I'm hiking? You ain't never been hiking?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Nobody's gonna buy that. But your phone is pinging here,
and you know the way you park and come in.
You know, I think they were gonna be able to
lay this out in a way again, he's trapped. He's done,
and he knew it. So if you watch just the
you know the way his defense attorney moved, she goes
(12:50):
from he didn't do it, We're gonna be able to
prove it. We want this thing done, we want a
speedy trial to no, no, no, no, no, let's take
our time. Now, let's not go crazy. Oh, clearly he
was somewhere else. He was nowhere near you know. Eleven
twenty two.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
I loved when the defense attorney was like, mister Coburger
definitely couldn't have been at the murder because he was
driving around by himself.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Where are we talking about, right? I mean I lost
my mind when I said his alibi is to not
have an alibi. Yeah, nobody's that stupid, y'all. He's got
no one that is coming to his defense. I mean,
supposedly there's a professor, you know, Supposedly there's another expert
(13:36):
that said, oh, it's two people. They would be obliterated
by any just half decent prosecutor. Nothing at that scene
tells you it was two people. First of all, we
got a freaking eye witness. He saw one man. Yeah,
he's driving in his car alone. Coburger has no friends,
(13:58):
he has no lover, He has no neighbors that even
know who the heck key is. So how in the
world is he get some side cake to hell him
kill somebody? Didn't?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I see? This is why I think this case is
so important to talk about for public interest, because there's
plenty of parents that have their kids going away and
living at college, and we need to be able to
teach our kids like how to put because those kids
were living like like like how children think they just
(14:32):
naive as hell, right, And we need to like get
inside his mind a little bit to see was he
stalking them? Did he go in their house before during
one of these parties where people were just in and out.
The drinking is a huge thing for me, because then
you just lose all of your instincts and sure and
your senses. And I think it's really important that we
(14:55):
talk about it and we find out what he was doing,
because there's there's hundreds of more guys out there that
are just like him, just waiting to pounce.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Think of all the frattonhauses that have people that are
intoxicated in the front doors, unlawed. Oh yeah, I think
it's also equally as important to talk about the other side.
You know, your son's not okay. You know it.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Oh, they're not surprised.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
You've known it for probably since he was in middle school,
for sure. But high school you knew it. When he
went off to college you knew it. Postgraduate you knew it.
When you don't connect with another person, you don't have
a best friend that's just as quirky and nerdy or
unusual as you are. Most people can find that group
(15:46):
no matter what the group is. If you sing acapilla,
there's a bunch of groups. If you like to paint,
there's a bunch of groups. But if you don't have
that right, your family knows it. Your teacher know it.
I tell people all the time. Find me a third
to seventh grade teacher, and that person is a criminal profile.
(16:08):
The second that kid hits their doorway, they know who
that kid is. You're gonna be a problem, you're gonna
be valedictorian. You're a nut, you're violent, you're shy, you're gifted,
you're kind, you're sweet. They know within an instant, and
they are rarely wrong, rarely.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Well, we were talking about that case earlier today of
the of the four fifth graders who just were planning
on killing one of their classmates, and we were talking
about it.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
They win level.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, that's what's concerned me. But we're just like, Okay,
Brian Coberger was a little kid at some point, Like
when do children start showing that they're off like this?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah, I don't think Brian hit it. I don't think
you hit it. The person that we see is not
a new person, just the empty eyes, the staring, the
no real personality. And I'm going to tell you something else,
and people aren't gonna like it. But if you look
at the people like Ted buddeny got a law degree,
BTK studied criminal justice. Look at Coburger, if your fantasy,
(17:14):
which is sexual, is to kill people. What do you
think sitting in that classroom is for him? It's Pomard. Yeah.
There are very few people that you could call or
sit at a bar, or meet at a club, or
go play golf with where you could say, man, I
could tie her up towards her for about four days
(17:34):
and killer class. Not only can you talk about it,
you can study it, you can write a paper about it.
You can come up with some questionnaire to write a
master's thesis on. That's what he was doing. So again,
don't confuse that with intellect. Don't confuse that with somebody
(17:56):
that's some mastermind criminal. He ain't. They don't leave she's
behind they don't leave their DNA behind it. They don't
use their own freaking phone in their old car. They
don't make those mistakes. I said early on, whoever this
person was would have a manifest I can guarantee you
(18:18):
he did, because he's crazy and this is not something
he could hid. He talks about it, he actually gets
something he's doing for class. Oh I've got to do
a paper on Ted Bundy. Oh, I've got to compare
Ted Bundy to wrecked Hureman I've got to talk about BTK.
(18:38):
I can memorize how to fly an airplane. That don't
mean I can do it. Yeah, I know what all
the knobs are, right. I can memorize rules to lacrosse.
I can't officiate a game. It's too fast, it's out
of bounds, like they're coming too close to me. When
he got in there and started to do what he did,
(18:59):
almost immediately, he made mistakes. The first mistake is the
other witnesses could hear them now. They dismissed it, thinking, oh,
they're playing with a doll. But you're already too loud.
You're already not in control, dude. So either you only
expected one and there were two, not a mastermind. Because
(19:20):
there's a car out for like you don't recognize because
it was a brand new car. And then you come
down the stairs there's another victim who runs. Well you
weren't planning on that either. Well, now you've got a
third victim. Well then you're like, well, I can't leave
any witness he's gonna wake up. Or maybe he said
hey you okay, but didn't move. He had no choice.
(19:43):
The last two victims, Xana and Ethan, were collateral damaged.
There's no doubt in my mind, men are ad and b.
So when he went in on the second floor and
went to the third floor, his target was upstairs.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Why do you think he spared the other two, like
just walked out right past them.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I don't know that he spared them. He a could
have been exhausted. He could have still been in his
trance like state, like if you're on a mission, you know,
have you ever been so frightened you like ran and
maybe cut your leg on something but didn't even know
it till the next day. Sometimes when you get into
(20:23):
this frame and you the people that have been on
is that will tell you they're not even aware of
what all is going on. He had no idea he
left that she. He probably panicked when he realized he
didn't have it, and it was probably a solid hour,
and I guarantee you he flipped out.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Do you think it's possible that part of his kink
was getting caught and going through this entire process because
he just couldn't shut that part of his brain off
where he was gonna kill.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
So he was like, if.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
I'm gonna kill, I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna
go through the whole process and learn intimately how every
step goes and how they put evidence against you in
the court system.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Could be But again, what he learned and when you
try to put something in action. All given example, both
of you have had a wedding. Whether you took a
week to plan it or a year, something happened. You
never counted them.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Okay, that's something that you sat for a year and
you said, okay, I want these colors, this dress, these bridesmaids.
Oh oh well, this song. Something went wrong. Even if
you planned it for a year and it was a calm,
happy thing, this ain't a calm or happy thing. I
can guarantee you things are going to go wrong. He
(21:42):
did not know how to counter it. So again, if
he had killed fifteen times, he would have had that
sheath secure. He wouldn't have had old sweatpants with no belt.
So he made such an elementary mistake right from get that,
you know you're not looking at this mastermind. You're not
(22:03):
looking at a janius. You're just not. Plus, we got
called in seven weeks. Somebody that had no connection to
these victims was called in seven weeks.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's pretty good, oh, yeah, what do you think about
about before we get to Karen Reid, because I want
to talk about her a little bit. What do you
think about and I guess this doesn't even matter at
this point. It what did you think about them destroying
the house?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Completely against it?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
The reason I bring that up to is because I
know in the Karen Reid trial they went to the
scene and a lot of people have said that that
really has changed the perspective on that and what. We
could talk about that in a minute. But I thought
that that was outrageous that they got rid of the house,
especially since the crime happened within the house and if
people could have walked through it and solved But I mean,
(23:00):
I guess whatever. I guess they made the right choice
because it doesn't matter now. But what if it makes
so weird? Right?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Well, here's the thing. When you have somebody say, well
my ring video picked up sound or I heard crying
or I heard screaming, you should be able to take
the jury there have somebody go in the house scream
can you hear it or not? Does the ring camera
pick it up or not?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
It's called evident, y'all. And if you say, well, the
house is laid out on. How could she not go
from her bedroom to her friend without him seeing her.
Maybe there's a way, Maybe if you go there in
the dark at four o'clock in the morning and don't
have any lights on that they didn't have old is
(23:49):
there a way that you can't see the person? Well,
we'll never know. And they decided that we would never know.
And that's not the right call. It's just not it's
not you should leave it up. It didn't like people
aren't gonna know. I mean, it's so silly. Oh we
gotta tear down. It's just a sad reminder. That's the
(24:11):
sad reminder.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, it's you still drive by it, and it's still
creepy that like that's never gonna be ever.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Driven by it. I'm in Georgia and it's sad. I
don't even have to be an Idaho. Are you kidding?
That college had an opportunity, I think, to do something
remarkable just with maybe that property, you know, forever. It's
just like we are, Marshall, you're not gonna outlive what happened.
(24:38):
You're just not so to me, that's an obligation that
you have to honor. These four students forever.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
This episode is brought to you by the Grosser Room. Guys,
it is fourth of July on and you know what
that means. In the gross Room. There are so many
articles about injuries and deaths that happen around fourth of July.
One of my favorite posts that I do every this
is kind of sick to say favorite, but that I
do every year in the gross Room is just all
(25:16):
of the cases that I received over the years of
people blowing off their hands with fireworks. It just never fouls,
And I say in the post, I just can't wait
to see what new injuries I get this year. It
just there's this meme that goes around online that's just like,
this will be the last day someone has all of
their fingers, and it's one hundred percent true. But we
(25:37):
also had a couple of cases. We did a high
profile death disseection on fourth of July murders and that
hockey player what was his name, Matief Kivlenox who died
from firework injuries as well. So all that and more
in the gross Room this week. Check out our holiday
Fourth of July post.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, head over to the grosser Room dot com now
to sign up. Well, I wanted to say, based on
them destroying the house, we could take that as an
opportunity to transition into Karen Reid based on the jury.
Foreman is requesting the FBI reopen the case. But how
are they possibly going to relook into this case when
the evidence was so mishandled, and that house has been
(26:20):
sold and the floors ripped up, and the dog they
got rid of. I mean, how are we supposed to
reevaluate this.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
This case, y'all? Oh my gosh. First of all, I
have said that this, this entire trial needs to be
shown in every single police academy in the United States.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
One hundred percent. What a shit show it is.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
There's no excuse in what happened nine from the minute
that the lead to take them decides he's not going
to go to the sea to him making his mind
up that it's a homicide and completely ignoring what the
medical examiner says, completely ignore what other people are saying.
He doesn't go and interview people, he doesn't separate folks,
(27:07):
he doesn't collect cell phones. He just goes full steam ahead.
Even though somebody that has a medical degree and has
done however, many autopsy says, it looks like this guy's
been in a fight. No, no, no, he was murger.
And then to me, it just gets worse when they
don't find till light until he goes there several days
(27:31):
later after being alone with the car. That's not good.
That should never happen. And then with everybody saying, you
know it was a butt dial or no, I didn't
look that up at two o'clock. I looked it up
at six o'clock. Okay, he's still pretty effing weird at
six o'clock. Yeah, I mean, you're not helping yourself. But
(27:51):
there's so many things that I know absolutely human nature.
I'm never gonna believe it. And one of them is
when they finding nobody ran to that house to get
a police officer. They just waited on the front lawn
for somebody to go. Now, let me tell ya something.
My sister lives next door to me. My sister is
(28:14):
a level one trauma nurse. If somebody is dead on
her front loan, I am never gonna say, well, I
didn't want to wake her up. Oh I'm gonna wake
her up.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
You know what. I actually didn't even think about that
until you just said that that so you're saying when
Karen Reid and it was she was with the general,
she was carry and Jen Ming, so they were on
and but Jen was friends with the homeowner, right, she
was more or what was she her sister was married
to the guy? Right?
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I think that's her sister's house.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I feel like, yeah, that Okay, we a second. I
don't know why. I just I didn't think about that
until you just said that. That is so bizarre, because
I think that's possible.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
So I need hell, I need hell. There's a policeman
right there, not even thirty feet. But I don't want
to wake them up.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, no, I mean I don't trust you know how.
I think Brian Coberger is guilty just based on his eyes.
I feel the same exact way about the Jim McCabe check.
She just has a look that is scary to me.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Well, everybody in the Karen Reid case is extremely unlikable,
which I think also feeds into the media frenzy around it.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
There's no one like the.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Water here remember anything. And again it just got worse
every expert they put up. I'm sitting there going wait
a minute, so they don't have a medical examiner from
Kansas or Florida, somewhere else that's gonna be able to
explain this injury. Not one trial, but in two trials.
They cannot find me a forensic pathologist or a pathologist,
(29:54):
or maybe even a pathologist that went to prison. Somebody
they can tell me the calls and manner of death.
Not one, not one in this entire country. You're gonna
put somebody up to ask a question, Oh, yeah, this
is what happened his head, And then the defence gets
up and says, you ever worked on a dead person? No,
(30:16):
I've never actually worked on a dead person? Is what
it testified to? What happened to this dead get out here?
I mean, what is happening?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
I don't know? And what what's up with the Red
Solo cops? Because that was a question I had, like
I understand if people weren't As you're drinking out of
a Red Solo, do you do you have them stacked
up in your car to collect evidence in case you
arrive at a scene and you're not prepared.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
They're right next to my snowblower.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I just I just don't believe that these cops don't
have like evidence bags just in their car at all times,
isn't that? I mean, this is your job. Isn't that
something that you guys stack your car up with so
you're always prepared. Yes, it's where did the solo cops
come from?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
If you they went and got them.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
So they went in the house to get the cops
or they like where.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I think they went and bought them like a little
store to ell string or so. I don't know. I
don't know, but listen, that just that's just one thing
they did wrong. Everything they did was wrong. Listen, you
have a murder. The guy's laying in the yard. A
lieutenant is testified, and they say, well, where was John o'key? Well,
(31:32):
somebody pointed over there, pointed somebody points where his body was,
past tents like y'all didn't mark his body. Oh okay,
I have metal states in my car about three four feet.
(31:53):
If the snow was deeper than that, somebody would have
gone and gotten a large piece of wood from home
depot or somewhere. I would mark it. Here's his head,
here's his hip, here's his knee, left knee, right knee,
right foot. I would know exactly where his body was.
They did not know where his body was. They said
(32:16):
near the flagpole. Okay, near the flagpole, because nobody bothered
a mare at the body, no crime scene, te, no flag,
no nothing. Okay. Then they said, oh and she said,
I hated my haity, my hitting. Nobody wrote that down.
Nobody wrote down a confession exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
So so like with the foreman of the jury saying
like he straight up had a quote that was like,
since the FBI knows that Karen Reid didn't do this,
they're going to have to look into this and investigate
who did do this, which to me means not only
the foreman thought that, but they all thought that. That's
(32:59):
where I get from.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
We all think it.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
We all know we don't because we know that there's
people that think that we're more on it.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
You know, there's a lot of people out there. Let
me tell you something. People came at me because the
first trull I said, she was gonna walk. You're I
can't believe you, of all people are Karen Reid supporter.
I didn't say anything in support of Karen Reid. I
based it on how pitiful the investigation was. And I
(33:32):
said very clearly it is Casey Anthony meets Mark Furman
and they had a baby, and that baby's Karen Reid. Yeah,
because you car you know, Casey Anthony, I said the
same thing. If you can't tell me how that baby died,
you don't have a murder. Yeah, it's just that simple.
You don't know how John o'keeff died, you don't have
(33:53):
a murder.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, and they can't and and all the stuff that
I brought up that I brought up on your show.
I was so happy to hear that one of the
medical examiners at least said that at the trial about
the hype like him not even being a candidate for
for hypothermia based upon the science of it, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
So, yeah, the whole thing you were dead old. Everything
you said was boom boom boom. And again that's the
most logical. He's out there without even a jacket out
and he's not frozen. Huh. But you got somebody checking
how all has he gotta be out here? Jilly Braces.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
We had a person two weeks ago tell us we
didn't know anything because Brian Koberger is innocent and we
had no evidence against him. I'm like, okay, well, the
dude just said he's guilty. So like, we're wrong, he's saying,
and have you seen his eyes?
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
And well have you seen Jen McCabe's eyes because she
kind of has similar eyes. I'm just just my opinion, but.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yeah, and she admitted on the stand, I'm miss remembered.
Do you know what every defense attorney's gonna do to
her the rest of her career when she.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Testifies, Oh, they'll bring it up.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Have you ever missremembered facts in a case before?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
My, it's unbelievable. You're like, it's kind of insulting. It's
like this ultimate gas lighting that you're watching this in
front of your eyes, and you're like, why are we
trying to act like this isn't happening? Right?
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Every single person should be petrified that you can be
charged with murder not once, but twice with zero evidence
of a murder. They had zero evidence of murder. Zero.
It doesn't matter if you think she hit him with
the car, thinking, feeling, believing ain't evidence. It ain't.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
We were just saying that about Scott Peterson because he
was convicted on circumstantial evidence. But when you looked at that,
it was like, okay, affair he had, the wife was
dead there's a million things when you look at Karen Reid. Yeah,
she's a little crazy and she was screaming at him,
and she was definitely drunk driving, but that doesn't make
her a murderer.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I know lots of people that get in fights like
that with their significant others. Like to me, I'm just
kind of like people say, shit, they were hanging out
the next night and find I think.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
If she didn't kill that's just how won't not talk
to each other? Listen. But I think Maria brings up
a good point. And for me, if you were trying to,
oh gosh, I killed him, what can I do to
make it look like I didn't do it? Leaving those
voicemails ate the way to do it exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
I think she would leave him nice voicemails like hi sweetie,
hope you get home safe from like where are you.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Right? I mean, she was dog cussing him, and it
almost seemed real to me that she kind of went
down about it, like Okay, I'm really worried now, but no,
I'm pissed off again, John please ants you know where
are you? Berber? I love you? You know what I mean?
That almost seemed more believable.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
You know, it's funny, like you know how we were
talking about that Ellen Greenberg case, when when I think
about that NII on one call to me, it feels
very like rehearsed. Yeah, like oh oh oh, she has
a knife in her chest, she summed herself, like it's
just like not like a way somebody talks but her.
I'm like, yeah, I've had ex boyfriends and I've been
(37:28):
like you mother effort, you know, like it seemed authentic
to me. Like and if not, she's a damn good actress, right.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
I mean listen, if my husband wasn't home by five
o'clock in the morning and I was calling him and
he wasn't answering, I too would be like, where are
you an effort?
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But I love you, be careful.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I hope you're okay, exactly. Yeah, I think there's a
whole lot of women that listen to that with no
that's that's.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, Like everyone's been in a relationship like that at
some point, whether they were a teenager or whatever. So
so what do you think, like, are they going to
is it closed? Are they going to open it and
try to figure it out? Like how how will that
process go down.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I think there's a lot of things that somebody needs
to look at. I think the ATF needs to look
at their agent. Oh yeah, there is no way a
ATF AGA is gonna throw a phone away here and
throw a SIM card away over there without me questioning it.
And here's why. He's got confidential informants in that phone.
(38:30):
He's got pictures, he's got videos, he's got text messages
between him and undercover people, him and high ranking people.
I don't buy it. You're if I lost my phone,
think of the contacts you have that you are never
gonna get back again. The photographs you're never gonna get back.
The videos gone right, you pray they're in the cloud,
(38:52):
but if it's full or whatever, or you made a mistake,
they're gone. I do not believe it. I'm never gonna believe.
I know too many federal agents if they lost their foe,
they would lose their mind.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, that's a good point. There's just so many things
that you're just You're just like, I'm a person and
this isn't this isn't right.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
I mean, this is what I do for a living,
and I'm telling you without hesitation, it is the worst
investigation I have ever seen that actually went to trial,
not once but twice, and I said, after the first one,
I said, they'll never try again because they know they
don't have murder. So I'm thinking, ethically, there's no way,
(39:36):
and you charge her again because you already know you
don't have it, and your case only gets weaker because
you're now not going to have a lead detective because
he's compromised. They already know the evidence has no chain
of custody. They know that some of the evidence was
packaged in the same bag, which means it's meaningless. Y'all
are harping on the fact there was one hair on
(39:56):
the car. There's one hair on the car? Really, you
you used a snowblower. You could have blown that over there.
As far as I know, I don't know what the
heck y'all were doing. But none of that is gonna check.
None of it is gonna make it all the way
through without somebody calling bs the tail light. Your own
person said you were in there alone with it, and
then she misremembered.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Remember, and what did you think about that, judge when
when the when the verdict came out, she was just
kind of like she was, Oh, so she's just getting
a standard drunken driving incident that any other person would
get on their first defense.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Okay, No, here's my problem with that whole thing. We've
all been to a ball game where you could tell
the revs were favoring one side or the other. There's
no doubt that was happening. There's no dat there's too
many illegal experts that can tell you she's wrong here,
she's wrong. Here, she's wrong here, okay, and not up
for the bay she was wrong, just flat raw. My
(40:54):
issue is, after you have put this woman through to
try and a jury has spoken on the most severe
charges not guilty, not guilty, the first thing out of
your mouth is can we look at such and such
date for sentencing? Seriously weird? Right, that's inappropriate. I was
(41:20):
expecting her to say, miss Reid, you are free to
go on behalf of the commonwealth.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
You know.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Sorry, she got nothing. She got immediately. Oh, we're gonna
send it to your butt. Okay, that's what five million
dollars duy, you look ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Oh yeah, she was so bitter the whole time.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
That attitude on her just seems so inappropriate for somebody
in that position.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, if you're supposed to be impartial, that's your whole gig.
Oh No, she didn't come off impartial to anybody.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
They really should have swapped her out for the second trial.
I couldn't believe they sent her for another trial. Well,
especially because exactly like you're saying, they proved enough reasonable
doubt first time around, and it just got even worse
for them going around the second time, right.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
And then her attitude the whole time from day one.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Everybody knew that she had a problem with her day one.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
It was interesting. So let's get it. Let's talk about
Diddy for a second. We don't have we're on verdict
watch everyone is. We thought it was coming today and
then what so bread to say all the things that
happened right before we started recording, and.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
I was taking notes down to the second before Money's nuts,
And I mean, I think Maria's face said it all.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
She was like, what is it? You know, when you
start to know everybody's gonna say, oh, they're asking this,
it must mean this to me. If they're asking about
racketeering and they want something cleared up on what two
of the witnesses said, that means they have to have
found him guilty on something they have other that would
(43:00):
not even be in question.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
They also said when they got the most recent note
with let me go over that really quick. But when
they got the most recent note, his body language changed
severely and he was visibly agitated. I hate that they're
not cameras in this courtroom. I guess that's the problem
with federal cases foot and.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
I couldn't help. Have y'all been following Lauren Conlin at all?
Of course?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah? Yeah, we called her. We were like, you need
to come on tomorrow if it comes out, not.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
To come on. But I just called her because I said,
I know you are flipping out. I mean, she has
covered this thing beautifully.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I know this is like the case of her career.
She's been there every day, right.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
I mean she knows it. I had her on my show,
and let me tell you, I was so knocked out
by her. I had a whole list of just names, y'all,
just names, no certain order, no nothing. I just had
everybody written that was involved with this case in some way.
She comes on, I just throw out naged like this.
She just catches it, grabbing it, explain it, saying exactly
(44:05):
who they are what they did, what they said. She's
like a freaking court reporter on this thing. Oh yes,
she knows better than anybody. But here's what I believe.
I believe not only are they gonna find him guilty
own something significant, I think that it's gonna probably hopefully
(44:27):
grab some other people eventually. I don't think he's gonna
be the only one.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Oh no, I mean they can't let him go, especially
after Epstein and everything, not releasing that list. They cannot
let this die here. So they gave a note I
guess around five o'clock so their end of day that
said they've reached a verdict on counts two, three, four,
and five, which was two counts of sex trafficking, two
counts of transportation for prostitution, but they haven't reached a
(44:52):
verdict yet on the racketeering. And they said some people's
minds cannot be changed. So the judge had said, come
back to mar.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
And keep deliberating because we're not finishing it here. Right,
here's the deal. Before the July is coming, they want
to be home. They want to celebrate, right, they don't
want this to be something they've got to come back Monday.
Maybe their minds can be changed the closer against to
I want to go home. These are people and they've
(45:22):
done their duty right. So to me, if you can
find him guilty on something that you know is parto rico,
what is the question? You know for what the witness
has said he transported them for prostitution. You know that, Oh, definitely,
what's the argument? So to me, you can't have two, three,
(45:43):
four or five without having won. You can't.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Yeah, how's that, dr jor R? When I can't say
that word? You can't say that word, say it like
nance your R. As a your R. I would kind
of be scared about what I was going to do
because I feel like he's such a powerful person. And
it was definitely portrayed in court that that dude is
(46:10):
like going to ruin your life if you try to
get in his way of something. And so do you
think that there's any of that that people are scared
to sure get him convicted of anything.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
I mean they heard it. He fire bombs somebody's car.
I mean he is a revengeful person. He called somebody's
mama and said I'm gonna put out a sex tape
if you don't give me money. Yeah, there's the reason
to look at him, just like they've charged it. This
is a gangster, that's how he moves. I've said before
(46:47):
publicly and I'll say it again to me with Tupac Shakur,
you have to look at him in nineteen ninety four,
you have to.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yeah, how I mean, we're not they're not bringing any
of that up though, right I know.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
They're not bringing up but I'm saying in the real world,
I don't they you cannot look at him. So that's
another reason. I think if one house of cards fall,
it's easier to get the other to fall. If he
were to go to prison for an extended period of time,
I think he would see people come out more and
(47:22):
more and more people.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
That's interesting because they would feel safe.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
He's going to go home on probation.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
They're not saying, did they not go over the night
club shooting? He was involved in it? All because I
was surprise Jalo hasn't come up in any of this.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
I am so surprised that there's all kinds of people
that weren't on that witness list. Just to lay foundation
of who this person is. Yeah, to me, you would
want to do that. I mean he was at the
studio the night Tupac was killed. He's here with j
Lo in another shooting. He's here when all this is done.
(47:59):
You know, he says he's not involved with this person
or that person, but there's photograph after photograph after photograph.
Here he is with sug nine. Here he is with
be Me. Here he is with Tupac. Show that that
these are the circles he ran in. And your grandmama
was right, birds of a feather.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
So if he's convicted, what kind of jel time is
he looking at?
Speaker 3 (48:22):
Okay, So for the racketeering, he's facing life in prison.
For the sex trafficking, he's fifteen to life per count,
and then the transportation of prostitutions ten years per count.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
So if he does a significant amount of time, then
then I see what you're saying that people will be like,
you know what, he's behind bars and I'm safe and
I could start talking now, that's right, because you know,
there's like I feel like all these people Kardashians, all
these people that were going to all these parties, like
they know a lot of shit.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
That's another thing, because Chloe Kardashian was his personal assistant
for a while. She has to know some stuff. I
can't believe they didn't have more assistance coming through.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
They all know. But again, to me, there's no way
they don't know. And here's why. Every single person that
ever cleaned a hotel room knew it. No way you
hid all of that. Every person that ever cleaned his mansion,
cleaned an Airbnb, or wherever he was cleaned a limo,
(49:20):
they have information. There's no way that he was able
to get the women and the drugs and the guns.
I mean, he had one gun that had the serial
number obliterated. Why he could legally have a gun he
could afford to have whatever gun he wants. That gun,
to me, is one of the most interesting things. That
(49:41):
gun is associated with something otherwise he wouldn't have it.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Yeah, it's just you're trying to do something shady, That's
that's all. It's also want to connect it to you.
It's also so bizarre his children are there listening to
these extremely graphic, detailed accounts of their father in these
sexual encounters. Right, it is weird, like and it's it's
not even just like sex. It's like the peing and
the mouth and all this weird shit. Like I don't
(50:07):
ever want my kids to hear that, even like I
don't want Maria to hear that stuff, you know what
I mean, especially about you doing it and and like you.
But do you think that the defense put on enough
evidence to suggest that she was a part of it?
And she was, she was a participant, a willing participant
during some of those things. I mean, I personally think
(50:31):
because I know that the prosecution straight up was like,
you only have to find that she was doing one
freak off that she didn't want to do in order
to get him on these charges. And I think the
video alone shows that she was trying to leave and
he pulled her.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Back in that the video was a money tree.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
That guy that that recorded that is like the whole case.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
I agree, because that's not a for debate that happened.
You could watch it and you can watch the level
of violence and a tower.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
So yeah, exactly ken to me.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
That's a beautiful thing for people to understand who he
was is. So you know, you can go back, even
like with Bill Cosby, if you remember the first person
that came out then there was like three Well then
there was a little bit of time before you got
to six and nine and twelve, Right, it takes a minute. Well,
(51:31):
then there's power in numbers. Then you start to ask yourself, well,
you know, one or two people could get together and
live about you, but twenty seven, Yeah, I don't think so.
And then people closer to him started to have to admit, yes,
I saw this, Yes I thought this was unusual. Well
(51:51):
then you had people that tried to defend him at first,
and even they had to turn loose of it because okay,
maybe he was great to you, Like, are you gonna
say these thirty two women are lying.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
Exactly totally. All right, let's talk about since we don't
have so much time left, let's talk about a case
that happened a couple of days ago, which involves the firefighters,
which you know, I'm married to one, so I always
have a special place in my heart when something like
this happens. And like when my husband goes to work,
(52:28):
I'm worried about him dying in a fire or some
kind of rescue effort, not thinking that he's going to
show up to a fire and get shot at. I mean,
I can't, I just can't. It's just like added to
the list of stuff to stress out about. I still
(52:48):
don't really understand what happened in this case. You have
the details, Maria.
Speaker 3 (52:52):
Yeah, so reports came in about this brush fire at
a popular hiking trail in Idaho, and then when the
first responders got there, they made a call and so
we're getting shot at. So they didn't really know what's
happening at first. So I believe two battalion chiefs were murdered,
and then another firefighter is in critical condition who was
also shot. Right now, they got in the police shootout
(53:14):
with the guy, and then they ended up finding him dead.
They tracked him through his cell phone, so they found
his body, and it's unclear if he took his own
life or if he got killed as a result of
the shootout. But I'm mostly scared because of copycats in
this situation. I feel like we've not seen an attack
like this on the fire department necessarily, and I'm worried
about what's to come after.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Well. Sadly, it sounds like this person wanted to have
somebody help him with his SUICIDID but he chose incorrectly
because he chose a solved target, meaning he knew they
didn't have weapons. Yeah, he knew when they got off
the truck. They're not paying attention. They're pulling lines and
(53:59):
trying to get home. Is trying to solve the problem,
that's what they do. They immediately go to the person
that's down, the fire, the car wreck. These are mission
driven firefighters and I think all of us would agree
if you have ever in your life had an opportunity
(54:20):
to deal with a firefighter or have one near you
in an emergency, they are some of the best in
the world. They almost naturally use your name, they calm
you down. They're there for medical reasons for like y'all
already talked about, trying to rescue somebody, trying to put
(54:42):
a fire out, try to get a tree out of
the roadway, whatever it is. And these are heroes to
me that don't do damage to people. They only save people.
That's it, you know, at least or may have to
get into a fight or may have to use force
(55:04):
firefighters that stop what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
Yeah, people, I mean, people don't like cops for whatever
personal reasons. They're just because they're jumping on some bandwagon, right,
But like you don't ever hear that with fire like
they're just kind of there, they're not They they're not
doing anything that people are generally mad about.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
You know, everybody loves them, Yeah, everybody.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
Well in this case. So there's not a confirmed motive
yet as of when we're recording this, but there's some
speculation going on because apparently twenty four years to the day,
in two thousand and one, this leader of the Aryan
Nations had filed for bankruptcy and lost the rights to
this property they owned, and then the fire department had
acquired the property and lit it on fire as part
(55:47):
of a training exercise. And then these this kid's high
school peers are coming out saying that he really idolized
Nazis and was just kind of off and was obsessed
with guns. So now there's this theory that this was payback, y'all.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
People do not like it when I say it, but
I won't say it anyway. People are mentally ill. People
know they're mentally ill, their family, their neighbors, their past
friends and associates. This person was not had and what
they thought, what they believed, what they felt. Nobody did anything.
(56:24):
Nobody said anything. Maybe they didn't know how or what
to do, but they knew this person was all And
you know, there's a whole lot of people smarter than
me that can give you the name of maybe what
was happening with him, But he's not, Okay, it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
Yeah, no, it's true. And he I think they just
had interviewed one of his friends that he was recently
living with that said he was quote like going off
the deep end, shaved his head, and his grandfather was
interviewed and hadn't talked to him in a little bit.
But also, this is an interesting part of this story
that his grandfather said that he really wanted to be
(57:03):
a forest firefighter and he thought he was actively pursuing it.
So I'm wondering if like maybe he was trying to
become a firefighter and he got rejected in some way,
or because it's just a weird I mean, listen, people
go to malls and shoot little kids and that's weird too.
Speaker 3 (57:24):
But this is the motive this really reminds me of,
like the Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma City. You know, like
everything came from one another, and that's what it's reminding
me of. And then you have the area nations involved
in all of this. It goes really deep.
Speaker 1 (57:41):
It can, but you're looking at somebody that is not
well and is trying to find their group. And I'll
tell you something y'all may not know. Remember the Oklahoma
City bombing. Yeah, Timothy McVeagh joined the Klueklutz client. They
threw him out because they thought his ideas were too
(58:03):
violent and too out there. Wowow okay, So this person,
when you start talking about Nazis, Okay, what year is it?
So if you're talking about Nazis, you're not well, Yes,
you need help. So again, if you pay attention to
(58:25):
your friends, your families, your neighbors, your coworkers, somebody that's
outwardly not able to hide that I want to be
affiliated with this hate group, there's your flag that right
there should be reported to somebody.
Speaker 2 (58:46):
And what in what case? Like, just because you're in
law enforcement, if we had someone in our life that
was acting that way, who do you call?
Speaker 1 (58:59):
Well, if you well, they were going to commit a
crime of a certain magnituator they're talking about bombs, I
would call the FIA. I would keep calling till somebody
heard me. Call the state police, call atf call somebody
and say this is what he's saying. I don't know
if anybody else is called, but I'm concerned because a
(59:22):
year ago he was on Wall Street doing great. Now
he's built a shack and he's claiming he's building bombs
in there. I would tell somebody.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
This happens often when we look in hindsight of a
lot of these particular crimes that have been happening over
the past couple of years. That remember there was the
Nicholas Cruz kid, from the school shooting, from the Parkland shooting.
It's just like there's this whole long thing that was
been happening, even with Coburger. Like you were saying, like
when people start talking, I heard that his sister was
(59:55):
writing a book, right, I don't know. I think that
I heard it say was in it, had a book
deal or was gonna write a book. A lot of
stuff's gonna start coming out about like how weird that
dude was. And you know, so.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Didn't she even call the police selling him in high school?
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Oh his Coburger sister. Yeah, there was something. There was
something weird that went on, and he had she knows
just from that book. What was the book called that
When the Night.
Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Of the Howard Blum book, When the Night Came Falling.
Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Yeah, he talked about. I mean that was that was
him interviewing some people that knew him, and just like
weird stuff about him being a heroin atic, Like usually
you don't see somebody that was a heroin attict go
go on to to be in grad school. Like it's
it's just like an unusual.
Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
I always forget that detail of that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
And then and he had some like major he had
some major surgeries because he lost a bunch of weight,
like he had like abdominoplasty and stuff, just like just
very unusual stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
So yeah, hear about that. She holds walt to come home. Okay,
So if you look at his life, remember he tried
to have r O t C. Like he tried to
have this group this fit when you can't because again
he can't conform to what they want him to be.
(01:01:20):
He's not going to be strong enough. He's not like minded,
he's not that person. So now he moves on to
something else and something else, and when he can't find it,
he invents his own thing.
Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
It's just it's all really interesting, all right. So let's
wrap this up by talking about why we are coming
to visit you in Atlanta in a few days.
Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
And I am so excited y'all. But y'all are going
to do a law enforcement training, which they are so
thrilled about. Lieutenant Barry Barnes I think is the most excited.
He literally stole your book from me. I haven't seen
it since. He'll probably bring it to the training get
you to signed it to heal. Then you're gonna a
(01:02:04):
very cold meet and greet at the original Zone seven
Manual's tavern, and we've got some special guests coming to
that that you don't even know about. I think you're
gonna do it. And then we're gonna do two, not one,
but two Whining Crowns and it's gonna be amazing. One's
already sold at Saturday.
Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Nights are awesome. Oh that's great. Yes, yes, yeah, I'm
looking forward to that. I and and you do all
these events all over different parts of the country. You
have that one that I'm definitely coming to. I'm bringing
my mom to, by the way. The one that you're
having in Lancaster near us. Yes, Lancaster's awesome. Have you
ever been there?
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Yes? I have. And let me tell you that whole
set up I think is gonna blow your mind. That
what they're gonna do with us and you know, let
us have access to it's gonna be something else.
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
And that's animal CSI. So every like regular people can
go to that, right, Oh of course yeah, I think everybody.
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
And that's what's awesome because I think there's so many
people that wanted to go to school for this and
maybe just couldn't. But now you're like, oh, you can
just go learn about this stuff just for entertainers. Yeah,
it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
We've got Deathy coming, we've got Joe Jack alone coming,
and we've got a surprise. Guess that's gonna knock you out.
Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
Yeah, be yeah, you're gonna. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
My mom is like so excited that I'm finally bringing
her to something.
Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
So it's gonna be wonderful. And this is the perfect
thing because I mean we've got one, we've got you know,
federal agents, and we've got animals. She's been crying. Now,
well let me tell you. I swear Traveler can tell
Tom because every night, about five minutes before Walt gets home,
(01:03:51):
she starts crying, and sure enough, then he walks the house.
Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Oh I was I was gonna text you tell to
talk to a wall about, you know, rubbing in his
face a little bit. That our baseball team swept you
guys the other a couple nights ago. So I was
just going, so it's really funny because I was gonna
text you the first night when they absolutely creamed them,
like the score was outrageous, right, and then I just
(01:04:17):
I went to sleep and then I forgot to text you.
And then the next day they got their ass kicked
a little bit. So Gabe was just like, this is baseball.
This is why you don't do that, because like you
would have looked them. Yeah, awesome. So all right, well
i'll see you in a couple of days. We're driving there,
so you know, we're gonna hit some things on the
way there, and we're really looking forward to hanging out
(01:04:39):
with you.
Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
We're gonna have a great time. And there's some people
I cannot wait for you to meet. You're gonna just
date it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
All right, awesome, I'm really looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
We all drive careful and I'll see your boat.
Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
We'll see you gat. Thanks for being on the show today.
Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
Absolutely, Thank y'all.
Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
Thank you for listening to mother nos death as a reminder,
my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a
master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed
or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
(01:05:22):
media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed
in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
(01:05:44):
a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and
subscribe to Mother Knows Death on apples, both, Spotify, YouTube,
or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks
Mother Knows Dad, starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria QK.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi, everyone, welcome The Mother Knows Death. We have a
special guest with us today on today's episode, Cheryl McCollum.
You may know her from her podcast Zone seven or
from Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She is a crime
scene investigator who specializes in cold cases and his director
and founder of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute. We
(00:42):
did an external exam with Cheryl over a year ago,
so if you guys are interested in hearing about her
career and how she got to where she's at now,
go ahead and listen to that. It was about last April.
But on today's episode, we're going to talk to Cheryl
about her thoughts on this shocking Brian Coberger plea deal. Well,
we might get into a little Diddy, we might get
(01:02):
into a little Karen Reid, as well as other news stories. Hi, Cheryl,
Welcome The Mother Knows Death Again.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Hey, honey, I could wait to get on here today.
My word, I mean, what in the world is happening
this week?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I don't know what we need to first start off
talking about this coburger situation because I was not expecting
that even a little bit. So that came out of nowhere.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Oh my god. Yeah, I mean, here's what I did know.
I knew the defense had nothing. Zero. There was nothing
they could do to counter the evidence. They had the DNA,
the ninth sheet, the cell phone, the cell phone going
into airplane mode, his own carr driving around and around
(01:51):
and around the house. But to take the death penalty
off the table, that to me came from nowhere.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Oh sure, And Cheryl, what the breaking news. I opened
Instagram and saw your post and was like, oh, I
can't believe.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yes, and go and here's the thing. I mean, Oh
my gosh, these families. I mean, you have four families
that have just been tortured by this guy. He's not
gonna tell anything. It wasn't him, he didn't do it.
He was out hiking looking at stars, which we knew
(02:28):
was garbage. But then on a weekend he's gonna say, hey,
you know, go see if they'll make a deal. And
then the families get an email that blew my mind.
I will say that that should have been an in person.
Let's all get together. I mean I had a buddy,
(02:51):
she found out her husband wanted out of their marriage
over an email, and I told her what a pos
he was. So that ain't this? I mean, these are
your children. You should have been handled with care and
concern and it should have been explained to them why
you would even entertain this? And I think, why do
(03:13):
you think?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Why do you think that they would have even done this?
If the evidence seemed to be so strong.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, there's some positives to it. I mean, they're not
victim centered, but there are some positives for the entire community.
Number one, there's gonna be a killer off the street period.
Number two is gonna save them about a million dollars.
Then you've got no appeals. When this is done, it's done.
(03:43):
If he were to go to trial be given the
death penalty, he would appeal for twenty years. Well that
means they're never gonna, you know, not have this on
their plate. This would cost them, you know, a whole
bunch of money every two years he would be fighting
some appeal. I mean, the Scott Peterson with a ridiculous van,
(04:07):
I mean, it never ends for that family.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Where exactly what I said on our show earlier today,
I was like, if you could ask Lacy Peterson's mom,
if she could go back in time, and I bet
you she would choose this because now there's a possibility
that he might get out.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
That's right, go into trial. There's a possibility. It takes
one bad juror it takes one misstep for the prosecution,
it takes one maneuver and you've got a mistrial or
a not guilty. I mean, you don't want to risk
that in a case. That's important, But again it needs
(04:46):
to be discussed before, not later. Like you're coming to
Atlanta to visit me. If I said, hey, I've got
a great airbnb for y'all, the family's gonna love it.
You're gonna be so comfortable, and you up and it's
a shot, you're gonna be like, Okay, you really kind
of need to tell me this is gonna be wilderness
(05:07):
camp before I got here. Yeah, cause you might be
expecting a five star something and there ain't no Egypti
sheets in their honey. Well, it's gonna change your whole
for you. So again, all of those family members, the
siblings included, the two surviving roommates included, everybody should have
(05:29):
been in a room and everybody should understand, Hey, this
has brought to me This is what I'm considering.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
And here's why, from what you've seen in your experience,
is is it weird that they haven't involved the family
more because it seems like with the gag order, they're
just telling them they're not allowed to talk. So they
haven't talked because they didn't want to ruin the case.
But there's been leaks and maybe that's a reason why
(05:57):
they're thinking, you know, the public's finding out way too
much information.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Well, Joe Scott brought up this point too, that Dateline
could possibly compromise the keyse with the information they released.
And now we have this docuseriies coming out on the
eleventh that we don't even know what's in that yet.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, we're gonna say, we're gonna be in Atlanta with
you when that one comes out.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
We're gonna have a good time. Listen, let me just
put that to rest. Think of all the books and
magazine articles and newspaper and documentaries and movies on Natalie Holloway,
you can still go to TRILL. You can if they
suddenly were able to get some conclusive DNA on John
bin A Ramsey, they could go to TRILL. So I'm
(06:39):
not worried about dateline. I'm not worried about the leaks
because here's the deal. I don't think anything has come
out that any of us have said, what that's crazy.
The only thing I took issue with that I call
bs on is when they came out and said that
Ethan's leg was carved. Here's why you don't stab a
(07:04):
Thanksgiving turkey. You carve it. There's precision, there's a method
to it. It's control. That's not what happened to that chat.
He was not carved. I would put my reputation on it.
There's no way that happened. The two victims upstairs were
(07:25):
brutally attacked in a knife willed and crazed killer. Xana
was chased on the stairs. Ethan was faced down in
a sleeve. I mean, he wasn't even involved in any
way when he was attacked, So he was not carved.
(07:45):
I don't believe that. I think that this person was
just in that zone and he did what he did
in a manner that was not controlled. I just I
don't believe.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Carving seems like something that would take a little bit
more time. Not that it would take time, but it's
it's something else would purposely do. Yeah, I think that
they just misspoke that Maybe I don't know, he stabbed
him to death on the way out, just took the
knife and kind of gashed his leg again because you.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Know, I would love to give somebody an owl. But
I think that was a deliberate comment to get the
reaction they knew that it would get. There's been nothing new,
there's been nothing about the victims that has come out
in the last little bit. Then all of a sudden,
carved and that's going to just send people straight out
(08:41):
because that's a different gig, that's a different crumb. So
we have a crime in Atlanta where a young lady
was murdered, but then the killer took extra time and
carved letters into her body. That is a carve it.
It does take extra time because it's controlled. If you're
(09:03):
just getting to be away from you, there's no control
where you're aiming. You're just trying to get the bug
away from you. If you are watching and you've got
a tennis racket, you're gonna hit a bumblebee. That's more controlled,
but it does take more time. Does that make sense
to you.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, I mean it's you ran out of there and
by all accounts there was. He was not there long
at all.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
There's no way he in a frenzy killed three females
and then with Oh, I'm gonna take my tongue and
really carve this guy up. Yeah, didn't happen. And it's
upsetting to people, Like again, you've got parents sitting there
that are getting their information from who, some reporter, some
(09:48):
true grind personalities, some you know, media person that's not okay.
Nobody should have broke that case but them. Oh yeah,
in my opinion, no, Nicole should know about your children
more than you.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Period agree. I agree with you, And like, so, so
what now, I mean, are we ever going to because
I was waiting for the trial to hear about the autopsies,
just because that says a lot about the psychology of
what was happening there, I mean, overkill and all that,
you know, are we ever going to hear anything about that?
(10:31):
What his motive was? Does he have to say any
of that stuff?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
If it's the right judge, it's going to make the
right call. Absolutely So, if you ever saw any of
the trial of BTK, he had to say exactly what
he did, in the order he did it, and how
he did it so to me, if you're going to
accept a guilty plea of a murder and a second murder,
(10:57):
and a third murder and a fourth murder, each family
deserves to have that information. Each family deserves to hear
this is what I did, This is how I did it,
This is how I picked the house, This is how
many times I rode by there. Yes, I bought the
nine on Amazon, all the things we already know. No,
(11:18):
I've never killed before, which is what I believe. And
the reason I believe he never killed before is he
ain't good at it. I mean, when I used to
work in Zoe three in Atlanta, we had an eight
year old drug dealer. Everybody called him Gator. Even Gator
knew not to use his own bicycle.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
So you're gonna use an year old little kid you're
talking about nah, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, but you're talking about I mean, he stole cars,
you know. He he was proud of his craff know
to me, But Gator was eight, But again, he knew
change my shirt where layers throw one shirt off, somebody's
looking for a kid on a bike wearing a red shirt.
That ain't me. My shirt's clearly green, right, but you're
(12:06):
talking about a man supposedly is so brilliant, supposedly studied everybody,
but used his own car and got caught on camera
and then shut his phone on airplane mode. Come on now,
and what's his excuse? I'm hiking? You ain't never been hiking?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Nobody's gonna buy that. But your phone is pinging here,
and you know the way you park and come in.
You know, I think they were gonna be able to
lay this out in a way again, he's trapped. He's done,
and he knew it. So if you watch just the
you know the way his defense attorney moved, she goes
(12:50):
from he didn't do it, We're gonna be able to
prove it. We want this thing done, we want a
speedy trial to no, no, no, no, no, let's take
our time. Now, let's not go crazy. Oh, clearly he
was somewhere else. He was nowhere near you know. Eleven
twenty two.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
I loved when the defense attorney was like, mister Coburger
definitely couldn't have been at the murder because he was
driving around by himself.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Where are we talking about, right? I mean I lost
my mind when I said his alibi is to not
have an alibi. Yeah, nobody's that stupid, y'all. He's got
no one that is coming to his defense. I mean,
supposedly there's a professor, you know, Supposedly there's another expert
(13:36):
that said, oh, it's two people. They would be obliterated
by any just half decent prosecutor. Nothing at that scene
tells you it was two people. First of all, we
got a freaking eye witness. He saw one man. Yeah,
he's driving in his car alone. Coburger has no friends,
(13:58):
he has no lover, He has no neighbors that even
know who the heck key is. So how in the
world is he get some side cake to hell him
kill somebody? Didn't?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I see? This is why I think this case is
so important to talk about for public interest, because there's
plenty of parents that have their kids going away and
living at college, and we need to be able to
teach our kids like how to put because those kids
were living like like like how children think they just
(14:32):
naive as hell, right, And we need to like get
inside his mind a little bit to see was he
stalking them? Did he go in their house before during
one of these parties where people were just in and out.
The drinking is a huge thing for me, because then
you just lose all of your instincts and sure and
your senses. And I think it's really important that we
(14:55):
talk about it and we find out what he was doing,
because there's there's hundreds of more guys out there that
are just like him, just waiting to pounce.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Think of all the frattonhauses that have people that are
intoxicated in the front doors, unlawed. Oh yeah, I think
it's also equally as important to talk about the other side.
You know, your son's not okay. You know it.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Oh, they're not surprised.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
You've known it for probably since he was in middle school,
for sure. But high school you knew it. When he
went off to college you knew it. Postgraduate you knew it.
When you don't connect with another person, you don't have
a best friend that's just as quirky and nerdy or
unusual as you are. Most people can find that group
(15:46):
no matter what the group is. If you sing acapilla,
there's a bunch of groups. If you like to paint,
there's a bunch of groups. But if you don't have
that right, your family knows it. Your teacher know it.
I tell people all the time. Find me a third
to seventh grade teacher, and that person is a criminal profile.
(16:08):
The second that kid hits their doorway, they know who
that kid is. You're gonna be a problem, you're gonna
be valedictorian. You're a nut, you're violent, you're shy, you're gifted,
you're kind, you're sweet. They know within an instant, and
they are rarely wrong, rarely.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Well, we were talking about that case earlier today of
the of the four fifth graders who just were planning
on killing one of their classmates, and we were talking
about it.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
They win level.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, that's what's concerned me. But we're just like, Okay,
Brian Coberger was a little kid at some point, Like
when do children start showing that they're off like this?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah, I don't think Brian hit it. I don't think
you hit it. The person that we see is not
a new person, just the empty eyes, the staring, the
no real personality. And I'm going to tell you something else,
and people aren't gonna like it. But if you look
at the people like Ted buddeny got a law degree,
BTK studied criminal justice. Look at Coburger, if your fantasy,
(17:14):
which is sexual, is to kill people. What do you
think sitting in that classroom is for him? It's Pomard. Yeah.
There are very few people that you could call or
sit at a bar, or meet at a club, or
go play golf with where you could say, man, I
could tie her up towards her for about four days
(17:34):
and killer class. Not only can you talk about it,
you can study it, you can write a paper about it.
You can come up with some questionnaire to write a
master's thesis on. That's what he was doing. So again,
don't confuse that with intellect. Don't confuse that with somebody
(17:56):
that's some mastermind criminal. He ain't. They don't leave she's
behind they don't leave their DNA behind it. They don't
use their own freaking phone in their old car. They
don't make those mistakes. I said early on, whoever this
person was would have a manifest I can guarantee you
(18:18):
he did, because he's crazy and this is not something
he could hid. He talks about it, he actually gets
something he's doing for class. Oh I've got to do
a paper on Ted Bundy. Oh, I've got to compare
Ted Bundy to wrecked Hureman I've got to talk about BTK.
(18:38):
I can memorize how to fly an airplane. That don't
mean I can do it. Yeah, I know what all
the knobs are, right. I can memorize rules to lacrosse.
I can't officiate a game. It's too fast, it's out
of bounds, like they're coming too close to me. When
he got in there and started to do what he did,
(18:59):
almost immediately, he made mistakes. The first mistake is the
other witnesses could hear them now. They dismissed it, thinking, oh,
they're playing with a doll. But you're already too loud.
You're already not in control, dude. So either you only
expected one and there were two, not a mastermind. Because
(19:20):
there's a car out for like you don't recognize because
it was a brand new car. And then you come
down the stairs there's another victim who runs. Well you
weren't planning on that either. Well, now you've got a
third victim. Well then you're like, well, I can't leave
any witness he's gonna wake up. Or maybe he said
hey you okay, but didn't move. He had no choice.
(19:43):
The last two victims, Xana and Ethan, were collateral damaged.
There's no doubt in my mind, men are ad and b.
So when he went in on the second floor and
went to the third floor, his target was upstairs.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Why do you think he spared the other two, like
just walked out right past them.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I don't know that he spared them. He a could
have been exhausted. He could have still been in his
trance like state, like if you're on a mission, you know,
have you ever been so frightened you like ran and
maybe cut your leg on something but didn't even know
it till the next day. Sometimes when you get into
(20:23):
this frame and you the people that have been on
is that will tell you they're not even aware of
what all is going on. He had no idea he
left that she. He probably panicked when he realized he
didn't have it, and it was probably a solid hour,
and I guarantee you he flipped out.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Do you think it's possible that part of his kink
was getting caught and going through this entire process because
he just couldn't shut that part of his brain off
where he was gonna kill.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
So he was like, if.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
I'm gonna kill, I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna
go through the whole process and learn intimately how every
step goes and how they put evidence against you in
the court system.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Could be But again, what he learned and when you
try to put something in action. All given example, both
of you have had a wedding. Whether you took a
week to plan it or a year, something happened. You
never counted them.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Okay, that's something that you sat for a year and
you said, okay, I want these colors, this dress, these bridesmaids.
Oh oh well, this song. Something went wrong. Even if
you planned it for a year and it was a calm,
happy thing, this ain't a calm or happy thing. I
can guarantee you things are going to go wrong. He
(21:42):
did not know how to counter it. So again, if
he had killed fifteen times, he would have had that
sheath secure. He wouldn't have had old sweatpants with no belt.
So he made such an elementary mistake right from get that,
you know you're not looking at this mastermind. You're not
(22:03):
looking at a janius. You're just not. Plus, we got
called in seven weeks. Somebody that had no connection to
these victims was called in seven weeks.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's pretty good, oh, yeah, what do you think about
about before we get to Karen Reid, because I want
to talk about her a little bit. What do you
think about and I guess this doesn't even matter at
this point. It what did you think about them destroying
the house?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Completely against it?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
The reason I bring that up to is because I
know in the Karen Reid trial they went to the
scene and a lot of people have said that that
really has changed the perspective on that and what. We
could talk about that in a minute. But I thought
that that was outrageous that they got rid of the house,
especially since the crime happened within the house and if
people could have walked through it and solved But I mean,
(23:00):
I guess whatever. I guess they made the right choice
because it doesn't matter now. But what if it makes
so weird? Right?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Well, here's the thing. When you have somebody say, well
my ring video picked up sound or I heard crying
or I heard screaming, you should be able to take
the jury there have somebody go in the house scream
can you hear it or not? Does the ring camera
pick it up or not?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
It's called evident, y'all. And if you say, well, the
house is laid out on. How could she not go
from her bedroom to her friend without him seeing her.
Maybe there's a way, Maybe if you go there in
the dark at four o'clock in the morning and don't
have any lights on that they didn't have old is
(23:49):
there a way that you can't see the person? Well,
we'll never know. And they decided that we would never know.
And that's not the right call. It's just not it's
not you should leave it up. It didn't like people
aren't gonna know. I mean, it's so silly. Oh we
gotta tear down. It's just a sad reminder. That's the
(24:11):
sad reminder.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, it's you still drive by it, and it's still
creepy that like that's never gonna be ever.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Driven by it. I'm in Georgia and it's sad. I
don't even have to be an Idaho. Are you kidding?
That college had an opportunity, I think, to do something
remarkable just with maybe that property, you know, forever. It's
just like we are, Marshall, you're not gonna outlive what happened.
(24:38):
You're just not so to me, that's an obligation that
you have to honor. These four students forever.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
This episode is brought to you by the Grosser Room. Guys,
it is fourth of July on and you know what
that means. In the gross Room. There are so many
articles about injuries and deaths that happen around fourth of July.
One of my favorite posts that I do every this
is kind of sick to say favorite, but that I
do every year in the gross Room is just all
(25:16):
of the cases that I received over the years of
people blowing off their hands with fireworks. It just never fouls,
And I say in the post, I just can't wait
to see what new injuries I get this year. It
just there's this meme that goes around online that's just like,
this will be the last day someone has all of
their fingers, and it's one hundred percent true. But we
(25:37):
also had a couple of cases. We did a high
profile death disseection on fourth of July murders and that
hockey player what was his name, Matief Kivlenox who died
from firework injuries as well. So all that and more
in the gross Room this week. Check out our holiday
Fourth of July post.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, head over to the grosser Room dot com now
to sign up. Well, I wanted to say, based on
them destroying the house, we could take that as an
opportunity to transition into Karen Reid based on the jury.
Foreman is requesting the FBI reopen the case. But how
are they possibly going to relook into this case when
the evidence was so mishandled, and that house has been
(26:20):
sold and the floors ripped up, and the dog they
got rid of. I mean, how are we supposed to
reevaluate this.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
This case, y'all? Oh my gosh. First of all, I
have said that this, this entire trial needs to be
shown in every single police academy in the United States.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
One hundred percent. What a shit show it is.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
There's no excuse in what happened nine from the minute
that the lead to take them decides he's not going
to go to the sea to him making his mind
up that it's a homicide and completely ignoring what the
medical examiner says, completely ignore what other people are saying.
He doesn't go and interview people, he doesn't separate folks,
(27:07):
he doesn't collect cell phones. He just goes full steam ahead.
Even though somebody that has a medical degree and has
done however, many autopsy says, it looks like this guy's
been in a fight. No, no, no, he was murger.
And then to me, it just gets worse when they
don't find till light until he goes there several days
(27:31):
later after being alone with the car. That's not good.
That should never happen. And then with everybody saying, you
know it was a butt dial or no, I didn't
look that up at two o'clock. I looked it up
at six o'clock. Okay, he's still pretty effing weird at
six o'clock. Yeah, I mean, you're not helping yourself. But
(27:51):
there's so many things that I know absolutely human nature.
I'm never gonna believe it. And one of them is
when they finding nobody ran to that house to get
a police officer. They just waited on the front lawn
for somebody to go. Now, let me tell ya something.
My sister lives next door to me. My sister is
(28:14):
a level one trauma nurse. If somebody is dead on
her front loan, I am never gonna say, well, I
didn't want to wake her up. Oh I'm gonna wake
her up.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
You know what. I actually didn't even think about that
until you just said that that so you're saying when
Karen Reid and it was she was with the general,
she was carry and Jen Ming, so they were on
and but Jen was friends with the homeowner, right, she
was more or what was she her sister was married
to the guy? Right?
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I think that's her sister's house.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I feel like, yeah, that Okay, we a second. I
don't know why. I just I didn't think about that
until you just said that. That is so bizarre, because
I think that's possible.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
So I need hell, I need hell. There's a policeman
right there, not even thirty feet. But I don't want
to wake them up.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, no, I mean I don't trust you know how.
I think Brian Coberger is guilty just based on his eyes.
I feel the same exact way about the Jim McCabe check.
She just has a look that is scary to me.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Well, everybody in the Karen Reid case is extremely unlikable,
which I think also feeds into the media frenzy around it.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
There's no one like the.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Water here remember anything. And again it just got worse
every expert they put up. I'm sitting there going wait
a minute, so they don't have a medical examiner from
Kansas or Florida, somewhere else that's gonna be able to
explain this injury. Not one trial, but in two trials.
They cannot find me a forensic pathologist or a pathologist,
(29:54):
or maybe even a pathologist that went to prison. Somebody
they can tell me the calls and manner of death.
Not one, not one in this entire country. You're gonna
put somebody up to ask a question, Oh, yeah, this
is what happened his head, And then the defence gets
up and says, you ever worked on a dead person? No,
(30:16):
I've never actually worked on a dead person? Is what
it testified to? What happened to this dead get out here?
I mean, what is happening?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
I don't know? And what what's up with the Red
Solo cops? Because that was a question I had, like
I understand if people weren't As you're drinking out of
a Red Solo, do you do you have them stacked
up in your car to collect evidence in case you
arrive at a scene and you're not prepared.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
They're right next to my snowblower.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I just I just don't believe that these cops don't
have like evidence bags just in their car at all times,
isn't that? I mean, this is your job. Isn't that
something that you guys stack your car up with so
you're always prepared. Yes, it's where did the solo cops
come from?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
If you they went and got them.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
So they went in the house to get the cops
or they like where.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I think they went and bought them like a little
store to ell string or so. I don't know. I
don't know, but listen, that just that's just one thing
they did wrong. Everything they did was wrong. Listen, you
have a murder. The guy's laying in the yard. A
lieutenant is testified, and they say, well, where was John o'key? Well,
(31:32):
somebody pointed over there, pointed somebody points where his body was,
past tents like y'all didn't mark his body. Oh okay,
I have metal states in my car about three four feet.
(31:53):
If the snow was deeper than that, somebody would have
gone and gotten a large piece of wood from home
depot or somewhere. I would mark it. Here's his head,
here's his hip, here's his knee, left knee, right knee,
right foot. I would know exactly where his body was.
They did not know where his body was. They said
(32:16):
near the flagpole. Okay, near the flagpole, because nobody bothered
a mare at the body, no crime scene, te, no flag,
no nothing. Okay. Then they said, oh and she said,
I hated my haity, my hitting. Nobody wrote that down.
Nobody wrote down a confession exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
So so like with the foreman of the jury saying
like he straight up had a quote that was like,
since the FBI knows that Karen Reid didn't do this,
they're going to have to look into this and investigate
who did do this, which to me means not only
the foreman thought that, but they all thought that. That's
(32:59):
where I get from.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
We all think it.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
We all know we don't because we know that there's
people that think that we're more on it.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
You know, there's a lot of people out there. Let
me tell you something. People came at me because the
first trull I said, she was gonna walk. You're I
can't believe you, of all people are Karen Reid supporter.
I didn't say anything in support of Karen Reid. I
based it on how pitiful the investigation was. And I
(33:32):
said very clearly it is Casey Anthony meets Mark Furman
and they had a baby, and that baby's Karen Reid. Yeah,
because you car you know, Casey Anthony, I said the
same thing. If you can't tell me how that baby died,
you don't have a murder. Yeah, it's just that simple.
You don't know how John o'keeff died, you don't have
(33:53):
a murder.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, and they can't and and all the stuff that
I brought up that I brought up on your show.
I was so happy to hear that one of the
medical examiners at least said that at the trial about
the hype like him not even being a candidate for
for hypothermia based upon the science of it, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
So, yeah, the whole thing you were dead old. Everything
you said was boom boom boom. And again that's the
most logical. He's out there without even a jacket out
and he's not frozen. Huh. But you got somebody checking
how all has he gotta be out here? Jilly Braces.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
We had a person two weeks ago tell us we
didn't know anything because Brian Koberger is innocent and we
had no evidence against him. I'm like, okay, well, the
dude just said he's guilty. So like, we're wrong, he's saying,
and have you seen his eyes?
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
And well have you seen Jen McCabe's eyes because she
kind of has similar eyes. I'm just just my opinion, but.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yeah, and she admitted on the stand, I'm miss remembered.
Do you know what every defense attorney's gonna do to
her the rest of her career when she.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Testifies, Oh, they'll bring it up.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Have you ever missremembered facts in a case before?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
My, it's unbelievable. You're like, it's kind of insulting. It's
like this ultimate gas lighting that you're watching this in
front of your eyes, and you're like, why are we
trying to act like this isn't happening? Right?
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Every single person should be petrified that you can be
charged with murder not once, but twice with zero evidence
of a murder. They had zero evidence of murder. Zero.
It doesn't matter if you think she hit him with
the car, thinking, feeling, believing ain't evidence. It ain't.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
We were just saying that about Scott Peterson because he
was convicted on circumstantial evidence. But when you looked at that,
it was like, okay, affair he had, the wife was
dead there's a million things when you look at Karen Reid. Yeah,
she's a little crazy and she was screaming at him,
and she was definitely drunk driving, but that doesn't make
her a murderer.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I know lots of people that get in fights like
that with their significant others. Like to me, I'm just
kind of like people say, shit, they were hanging out
the next night and find I think.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
If she didn't kill that's just how won't not talk
to each other? Listen. But I think Maria brings up
a good point. And for me, if you were trying to,
oh gosh, I killed him, what can I do to
make it look like I didn't do it? Leaving those
voicemails ate the way to do it exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
I think she would leave him nice voicemails like hi sweetie,
hope you get home safe from like where are you.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Right? I mean, she was dog cussing him, and it
almost seemed real to me that she kind of went
down about it, like Okay, I'm really worried now, but no,
I'm pissed off again, John please ants you know where
are you? Berber? I love you? You know what I mean?
That almost seemed more believable.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
You know, it's funny, like you know how we were
talking about that Ellen Greenberg case, when when I think
about that NII on one call to me, it feels
very like rehearsed. Yeah, like oh oh oh, she has
a knife in her chest, she summed herself, like it's
just like not like a way somebody talks but her.
I'm like, yeah, I've had ex boyfriends and I've been
(37:28):
like you mother effort, you know, like it seemed authentic
to me. Like and if not, she's a damn good actress, right.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
I mean listen, if my husband wasn't home by five
o'clock in the morning and I was calling him and
he wasn't answering, I too would be like, where are
you an effort?
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But I love you, be careful.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I hope you're okay, exactly. Yeah, I think there's a
whole lot of women that listen to that with no
that's that's.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, Like everyone's been in a relationship like that at
some point, whether they were a teenager or whatever. So
so what do you think, like, are they going to
is it closed? Are they going to open it and
try to figure it out? Like how how will that
process go down.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I think there's a lot of things that somebody needs
to look at. I think the ATF needs to look
at their agent. Oh yeah, there is no way a
ATF AGA is gonna throw a phone away here and
throw a SIM card away over there without me questioning it.
And here's why. He's got confidential informants in that phone.
(38:30):
He's got pictures, he's got videos, he's got text messages
between him and undercover people, him and high ranking people.
I don't buy it. You're if I lost my phone,
think of the contacts you have that you are never
gonna get back again. The photographs you're never gonna get back.
The videos gone right, you pray they're in the cloud,
(38:52):
but if it's full or whatever, or you made a mistake,
they're gone. I do not believe it. I'm never gonna believe.
I know too many federal agents if they lost their foe,
they would lose their mind.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, that's a good point. There's just so many things
that you're just You're just like, I'm a person and
this isn't this isn't right.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
I mean, this is what I do for a living,
and I'm telling you without hesitation, it is the worst
investigation I have ever seen that actually went to trial,
not once but twice, and I said, after the first one,
I said, they'll never try again because they know they
don't have murder. So I'm thinking, ethically, there's no way,
(39:36):
and you charge her again because you already know you
don't have it, and your case only gets weaker because
you're now not going to have a lead detective because
he's compromised. They already know the evidence has no chain
of custody. They know that some of the evidence was
packaged in the same bag, which means it's meaningless. Y'all
are harping on the fact there was one hair on
(39:56):
the car. There's one hair on the car? Really, you
you used a snowblower. You could have blown that over there.
As far as I know, I don't know what the
heck y'all were doing. But none of that is gonna check.
None of it is gonna make it all the way
through without somebody calling bs the tail light. Your own
person said you were in there alone with it, and
then she misremembered.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Remember, and what did you think about that, judge when
when the when the verdict came out, she was just
kind of like she was, Oh, so she's just getting
a standard drunken driving incident that any other person would
get on their first defense.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Okay, No, here's my problem with that whole thing. We've
all been to a ball game where you could tell
the revs were favoring one side or the other. There's
no doubt that was happening. There's no dat there's too
many illegal experts that can tell you she's wrong here,
she's wrong. Here, she's wrong here, okay, and not up
for the bay she was wrong, just flat raw. My
(40:54):
issue is, after you have put this woman through to
try and a jury has spoken on the most severe
charges not guilty, not guilty, the first thing out of
your mouth is can we look at such and such
date for sentencing? Seriously weird? Right, that's inappropriate. I was
(41:20):
expecting her to say, miss Reid, you are free to
go on behalf of the commonwealth.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
You know.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Sorry, she got nothing. She got immediately. Oh, we're gonna
send it to your butt. Okay, that's what five million
dollars duy, you look ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Oh yeah, she was so bitter the whole time.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
That attitude on her just seems so inappropriate for somebody
in that position.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, if you're supposed to be impartial, that's your whole gig.
Oh No, she didn't come off impartial to anybody.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
They really should have swapped her out for the second trial.
I couldn't believe they sent her for another trial. Well,
especially because exactly like you're saying, they proved enough reasonable
doubt first time around, and it just got even worse
for them going around the second time, right.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
And then her attitude the whole time from day one.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Everybody knew that she had a problem with her day one.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
It was interesting. So let's get it. Let's talk about
Diddy for a second. We don't have we're on verdict
watch everyone is. We thought it was coming today and
then what so bread to say all the things that
happened right before we started recording, and.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
I was taking notes down to the second before Money's nuts,
And I mean, I think Maria's face said it all.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
She was like, what is it? You know, when you
start to know everybody's gonna say, oh, they're asking this,
it must mean this to me. If they're asking about
racketeering and they want something cleared up on what two
of the witnesses said, that means they have to have
found him guilty on something they have other that would
(43:00):
not even be in question.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
They also said when they got the most recent note
with let me go over that really quick. But when
they got the most recent note, his body language changed
severely and he was visibly agitated. I hate that they're
not cameras in this courtroom. I guess that's the problem
with federal cases foot and.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
I couldn't help. Have y'all been following Lauren Conlin at all?
Of course?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah? Yeah, we called her. We were like, you need
to come on tomorrow if it comes out, not.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
To come on. But I just called her because I said,
I know you are flipping out. I mean, she has
covered this thing beautifully.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I know this is like the case of her career.
She's been there every day, right.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
I mean she knows it. I had her on my show,
and let me tell you, I was so knocked out
by her. I had a whole list of just names, y'all,
just names, no certain order, no nothing. I just had
everybody written that was involved with this case in some way.
She comes on, I just throw out naged like this.
She just catches it, grabbing it, explain it, saying exactly
(44:05):
who they are what they did, what they said. She's
like a freaking court reporter on this thing. Oh yes,
she knows better than anybody. But here's what I believe.
I believe not only are they gonna find him guilty
own something significant, I think that it's gonna probably hopefully
(44:27):
grab some other people eventually. I don't think he's gonna
be the only one.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Oh no, I mean they can't let him go, especially
after Epstein and everything, not releasing that list. They cannot
let this die here. So they gave a note I
guess around five o'clock so their end of day that
said they've reached a verdict on counts two, three, four,
and five, which was two counts of sex trafficking, two
counts of transportation for prostitution, but they haven't reached a
(44:52):
verdict yet on the racketeering. And they said some people's
minds cannot be changed. So the judge had said, come
back to mar.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
And keep deliberating because we're not finishing it here. Right,
here's the deal. Before the July is coming, they want
to be home. They want to celebrate, right, they don't
want this to be something they've got to come back Monday.
Maybe their minds can be changed the closer against to
I want to go home. These are people and they've
(45:22):
done their duty right. So to me, if you can
find him guilty on something that you know is parto rico,
what is the question? You know for what the witness
has said he transported them for prostitution. You know that, Oh, definitely,
what's the argument? So to me, you can't have two, three,
(45:43):
four or five without having won. You can't.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Yeah, how's that, dr jor R? When I can't say
that word? You can't say that word, say it like
nance your R. As a your R. I would kind
of be scared about what I was going to do
because I feel like he's such a powerful person. And
it was definitely portrayed in court that that dude is
(46:10):
like going to ruin your life if you try to
get in his way of something. And so do you
think that there's any of that that people are scared
to sure get him convicted of anything.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
I mean they heard it. He fire bombs somebody's car.
I mean he is a revengeful person. He called somebody's
mama and said I'm gonna put out a sex tape
if you don't give me money. Yeah, there's the reason
to look at him, just like they've charged it. This
is a gangster, that's how he moves. I've said before
(46:47):
publicly and I'll say it again to me with Tupac Shakur,
you have to look at him in nineteen ninety four,
you have to.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yeah, how I mean, we're not they're not bringing any
of that up though, right I know.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
They're not bringing up but I'm saying in the real world,
I don't they you cannot look at him. So that's
another reason. I think if one house of cards fall,
it's easier to get the other to fall. If he
were to go to prison for an extended period of time,
I think he would see people come out more and
(47:22):
more and more people.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
That's interesting because they would feel safe.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
He's going to go home on probation.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
They're not saying, did they not go over the night
club shooting? He was involved in it? All because I
was surprise Jalo hasn't come up in any of this.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
I am so surprised that there's all kinds of people
that weren't on that witness list. Just to lay foundation
of who this person is. Yeah, to me, you would
want to do that. I mean he was at the
studio the night Tupac was killed. He's here with j
Lo in another shooting. He's here when all this is done.
(47:59):
You know, he says he's not involved with this person
or that person, but there's photograph after photograph after photograph.
Here he is with sug nine. Here he is with
be Me. Here he is with Tupac. Show that that
these are the circles he ran in. And your grandmama
was right, birds of a feather.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
So if he's convicted, what kind of jel time is
he looking at?
Speaker 3 (48:22):
Okay, So for the racketeering, he's facing life in prison.
For the sex trafficking, he's fifteen to life per count,
and then the transportation of prostitutions ten years per count.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
So if he does a significant amount of time, then
then I see what you're saying that people will be like,
you know what, he's behind bars and I'm safe and
I could start talking now, that's right, because you know,
there's like I feel like all these people Kardashians, all
these people that were going to all these parties, like
they know a lot of shit.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
That's another thing, because Chloe Kardashian was his personal assistant
for a while. She has to know some stuff. I
can't believe they didn't have more assistance coming through.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
They all know. But again, to me, there's no way
they don't know. And here's why. Every single person that
ever cleaned a hotel room knew it. No way you
hid all of that. Every person that ever cleaned his mansion,
cleaned an Airbnb, or wherever he was cleaned a limo,
(49:20):
they have information. There's no way that he was able
to get the women and the drugs and the guns.
I mean, he had one gun that had the serial
number obliterated. Why he could legally have a gun he
could afford to have whatever gun he wants. That gun,
to me, is one of the most interesting things. That
(49:41):
gun is associated with something otherwise he wouldn't have it.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Yeah, it's just you're trying to do something shady, That's
that's all. It's also want to connect it to you.
It's also so bizarre his children are there listening to
these extremely graphic, detailed accounts of their father in these
sexual encounters. Right, it is weird, like and it's it's
not even just like sex. It's like the peing and
the mouth and all this weird shit. Like I don't
(50:07):
ever want my kids to hear that, even like I
don't want Maria to hear that stuff, you know what
I mean, especially about you doing it and and like you.
But do you think that the defense put on enough
evidence to suggest that she was a part of it?
And she was, she was a participant, a willing participant
during some of those things. I mean, I personally think
(50:31):
because I know that the prosecution straight up was like,
you only have to find that she was doing one
freak off that she didn't want to do in order
to get him on these charges. And I think the
video alone shows that she was trying to leave and
he pulled her.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Back in that the video was a money tree.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
That guy that that recorded that is like the whole case.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
I agree, because that's not a for debate that happened.
You could watch it and you can watch the level
of violence and a tower.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
So yeah, exactly ken to me.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
That's a beautiful thing for people to understand who he
was is. So you know, you can go back, even
like with Bill Cosby, if you remember the first person
that came out then there was like three Well then
there was a little bit of time before you got
to six and nine and twelve, Right, it takes a minute. Well,
(51:31):
then there's power in numbers. Then you start to ask yourself, well,
you know, one or two people could get together and
live about you, but twenty seven, Yeah, I don't think so.
And then people closer to him started to have to admit, yes,
I saw this, Yes I thought this was unusual. Well
(51:51):
then you had people that tried to defend him at first,
and even they had to turn loose of it because okay,
maybe he was great to you, Like, are you gonna
say these thirty two women are lying.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
Exactly totally. All right, let's talk about since we don't
have so much time left, let's talk about a case
that happened a couple of days ago, which involves the firefighters,
which you know, I'm married to one, so I always
have a special place in my heart when something like
this happens. And like when my husband goes to work,
(52:28):
I'm worried about him dying in a fire or some
kind of rescue effort, not thinking that he's going to
show up to a fire and get shot at. I mean,
I can't, I just can't. It's just like added to
the list of stuff to stress out about. I still
(52:48):
don't really understand what happened in this case. You have
the details, Maria.
Speaker 3 (52:52):
Yeah, so reports came in about this brush fire at
a popular hiking trail in Idaho, and then when the
first responders got there, they made a call and so
we're getting shot at. So they didn't really know what's
happening at first. So I believe two battalion chiefs were murdered,
and then another firefighter is in critical condition who was
also shot. Right now, they got in the police shootout
(53:14):
with the guy, and then they ended up finding him dead.
They tracked him through his cell phone, so they found
his body, and it's unclear if he took his own
life or if he got killed as a result of
the shootout. But I'm mostly scared because of copycats in
this situation. I feel like we've not seen an attack
like this on the fire department necessarily, and I'm worried
about what's to come after.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Well. Sadly, it sounds like this person wanted to have
somebody help him with his SUICIDID but he chose incorrectly
because he chose a solved target, meaning he knew they
didn't have weapons. Yeah, he knew when they got off
the truck. They're not paying attention. They're pulling lines and
(53:59):
trying to get home. Is trying to solve the problem,
that's what they do. They immediately go to the person
that's down, the fire, the car wreck. These are mission
driven firefighters and I think all of us would agree
if you have ever in your life had an opportunity
(54:20):
to deal with a firefighter or have one near you
in an emergency, they are some of the best in
the world. They almost naturally use your name, they calm
you down. They're there for medical reasons for like y'all
already talked about, trying to rescue somebody, trying to put
(54:42):
a fire out, try to get a tree out of
the roadway, whatever it is. And these are heroes to
me that don't do damage to people. They only save people.
That's it, you know, at least or may have to
get into a fight or may have to use force
(55:04):
firefighters that stop what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
Yeah, people, I mean, people don't like cops for whatever
personal reasons. They're just because they're jumping on some bandwagon, right,
But like you don't ever hear that with fire like
they're just kind of there, they're not They they're not
doing anything that people are generally mad about.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
You know, everybody loves them, Yeah, everybody.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
Well in this case. So there's not a confirmed motive
yet as of when we're recording this, but there's some
speculation going on because apparently twenty four years to the day,
in two thousand and one, this leader of the Aryan
Nations had filed for bankruptcy and lost the rights to
this property they owned, and then the fire department had
acquired the property and lit it on fire as part
(55:47):
of a training exercise. And then these this kid's high
school peers are coming out saying that he really idolized
Nazis and was just kind of off and was obsessed
with guns. So now there's this theory that this was payback, y'all.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
People do not like it when I say it, but
I won't say it anyway. People are mentally ill. People
know they're mentally ill, their family, their neighbors, their past
friends and associates. This person was not had and what
they thought, what they believed, what they felt. Nobody did anything.
(56:24):
Nobody said anything. Maybe they didn't know how or what
to do, but they knew this person was all And
you know, there's a whole lot of people smarter than
me that can give you the name of maybe what
was happening with him, But he's not, Okay, it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
Yeah, no, it's true. And he I think they just
had interviewed one of his friends that he was recently
living with that said he was quote like going off
the deep end, shaved his head, and his grandfather was
interviewed and hadn't talked to him in a little bit.
But also, this is an interesting part of this story
that his grandfather said that he really wanted to be
(57:03):
a forest firefighter and he thought he was actively pursuing it.
So I'm wondering if like maybe he was trying to
become a firefighter and he got rejected in some way,
or because it's just a weird I mean, listen, people
go to malls and shoot little kids and that's weird too.
Speaker 3 (57:24):
But this is the motive this really reminds me of,
like the Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma City. You know, like
everything came from one another, and that's what it's reminding
me of. And then you have the area nations involved
in all of this. It goes really deep.
Speaker 1 (57:41):
It can, but you're looking at somebody that is not
well and is trying to find their group. And I'll
tell you something y'all may not know. Remember the Oklahoma
City bombing. Yeah, Timothy McVeagh joined the Klueklutz client. They
threw him out because they thought his ideas were too
(58:03):
violent and too out there. Wowow okay, So this person,
when you start talking about Nazis, Okay, what year is it?
So if you're talking about Nazis, you're not well, Yes,
you need help. So again, if you pay attention to
(58:25):
your friends, your families, your neighbors, your coworkers, somebody that's
outwardly not able to hide that I want to be
affiliated with this hate group, there's your flag that right
there should be reported to somebody.
Speaker 2 (58:46):
And what in what case? Like, just because you're in
law enforcement, if we had someone in our life that
was acting that way, who do you call?
Speaker 1 (58:59):
Well, if you well, they were going to commit a
crime of a certain magnituator they're talking about bombs, I
would call the FIA. I would keep calling till somebody
heard me. Call the state police, call atf call somebody
and say this is what he's saying. I don't know
if anybody else is called, but I'm concerned because a
(59:22):
year ago he was on Wall Street doing great. Now
he's built a shack and he's claiming he's building bombs
in there. I would tell somebody.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
This happens often when we look in hindsight of a
lot of these particular crimes that have been happening over
the past couple of years. That remember there was the
Nicholas Cruz kid, from the school shooting, from the Parkland shooting.
It's just like there's this whole long thing that was
been happening, even with Coburger. Like you were saying, like
when people start talking, I heard that his sister was
(59:55):
writing a book, right, I don't know. I think that
I heard it say was in it, had a book
deal or was gonna write a book. A lot of
stuff's gonna start coming out about like how weird that
dude was. And you know, so.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Didn't she even call the police selling him in high school?
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Oh his Coburger sister. Yeah, there was something. There was
something weird that went on, and he had she knows
just from that book. What was the book called that
When the Night.
Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Of the Howard Blum book, When the Night Came Falling.
Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Yeah, he talked about. I mean that was that was
him interviewing some people that knew him, and just like
weird stuff about him being a heroin atic, Like usually
you don't see somebody that was a heroin attict go
go on to to be in grad school. Like it's
it's just like an unusual.
Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
I always forget that detail of that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
And then and he had some like major he had
some major surgeries because he lost a bunch of weight,
like he had like abdominoplasty and stuff, just like just
very unusual stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
So yeah, hear about that. She holds walt to come home. Okay,
So if you look at his life, remember he tried
to have r O t C. Like he tried to
have this group this fit when you can't because again
he can't conform to what they want him to be.
(01:01:20):
He's not going to be strong enough. He's not like minded,
he's not that person. So now he moves on to
something else and something else, and when he can't find it,
he invents his own thing.
Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
It's just it's all really interesting, all right. So let's
wrap this up by talking about why we are coming
to visit you in Atlanta in a few days.
Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
And I am so excited y'all. But y'all are going
to do a law enforcement training, which they are so
thrilled about. Lieutenant Barry Barnes I think is the most excited.
He literally stole your book from me. I haven't seen
it since. He'll probably bring it to the training get
you to signed it to heal. Then you're gonna a
(01:02:04):
very cold meet and greet at the original Zone seven
Manual's tavern, and we've got some special guests coming to
that that you don't even know about. I think you're
gonna do it. And then we're gonna do two, not one,
but two Whining Crowns and it's gonna be amazing. One's
already sold at Saturday.
Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Nights are awesome. Oh that's great. Yes, yes, yeah, I'm
looking forward to that. I and and you do all
these events all over different parts of the country. You
have that one that I'm definitely coming to. I'm bringing
my mom to, by the way. The one that you're
having in Lancaster near us. Yes, Lancaster's awesome. Have you
ever been there?
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Yes? I have. And let me tell you that whole
set up I think is gonna blow your mind. That
what they're gonna do with us and you know, let
us have access to it's gonna be something else.
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
And that's animal CSI. So every like regular people can
go to that, right, Oh of course yeah, I think everybody.
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
And that's what's awesome because I think there's so many
people that wanted to go to school for this and
maybe just couldn't. But now you're like, oh, you can
just go learn about this stuff just for entertainers. Yeah,
it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
We've got Deathy coming, we've got Joe Jack alone coming,
and we've got a surprise. Guess that's gonna knock you out.
Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
Yeah, be yeah, you're gonna. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
My mom is like so excited that I'm finally bringing
her to something.
Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
So it's gonna be wonderful. And this is the perfect
thing because I mean we've got one, we've got you know,
federal agents, and we've got animals. She's been crying. Now,
well let me tell you. I swear Traveler can tell
Tom because every night, about five minutes before Walt gets home,
(01:03:51):
she starts crying, and sure enough, then he walks the house.
Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Oh I was I was gonna text you tell to
talk to a wall about, you know, rubbing in his
face a little bit. That our baseball team swept you
guys the other a couple nights ago. So I was
just going, so it's really funny because I was gonna
text you the first night when they absolutely creamed them,
like the score was outrageous, right, and then I just
(01:04:17):
I went to sleep and then I forgot to text you.
And then the next day they got their ass kicked
a little bit. So Gabe was just like, this is baseball.
This is why you don't do that, because like you
would have looked them. Yeah, awesome. So all right, well
i'll see you in a couple of days. We're driving there,
so you know, we're gonna hit some things on the
way there, and we're really looking forward to hanging out
(01:04:39):
with you.
Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
We're gonna have a great time. And there's some people
I cannot wait for you to meet. You're gonna just
date it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
All right, awesome, I'm really looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
We all drive careful and I'll see your boat.
Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
We'll see you gat. Thanks for being on the show today.
Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
Absolutely, Thank y'all.
Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
Thank you for listening to mother nos death as a reminder,
my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a
master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed
or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
(01:05:22):
media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed
in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
(01:05:44):
a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and
subscribe to Mother Knows Death on apples, both, Spotify, YouTube,
or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks
Hosts And Creators
Nicole Angemi
Maria Q. Kane
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