November 22, 2023 • 27 mins
In her apartment above the famous Carnegie Deli in midtown Manhattan, an upscale weed dealer named Jennifer Stahl is about to get two visitors. Over the course of six minutes, the two men will commit a crime that will traumatize the city for weeks.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Murder Holmes is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
It was a blur of one, two, three, four shots total,
and then I actually felt the barrel of a gun
on my head, so I knew what was coming.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
And that was it.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Sean Sally was in a foul mood when he cornered
Andre Smith on a street in Newark in two thousand
and one. He'd just been fired from his latest job
when he pulled a gun on a fellow employee, and
he was desperate to scrounge up some extra cash. The
two men, each thirty years old, weren't exactly friends, but
they partnered up on low level drug deals in the
past and now. Sally told Smith he had a can't
(00:51):
miss way of raking in some dough and a lot
of weed. He knew a woman who sold marijuana in
her fifth floor apartment above the Carnegie Deli in mid Manhattan.
He told Smith that she was willing to split the
profits on some of her cast off weed, and had
given him some to sell a couple of times before.
He'd grudgingly split the profits with her after selling it
(01:11):
a Newark. But he also knew how much he was
making selling the good stuff to people who could afford it.
Her name was Jennifer Staal Another chump change split on
Jennifer's leftovers wasn't what Sally was gamed for. He had
a new plan, and it had formed feverishly in his
mind over the.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Past few days.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
He told Smith he wanted to rob her as well,
and the job would be a cinch. All they had
to do was walk in with some duct tape because
she always had a few customers waiting in the front room.
Wave a gun around and she'd give them everything they wanted.
Smith watched Sally walk away, already fill with doubt about
the robbery. Everyone knew Sally was a hothead and not
(01:54):
the brightest bulb on the block, but Smith also knew
he was the kind of guy you didn't say no to.
He didn't want to be on Sally's shit list. The
most he could do was hope that Sally would forget
about the whole idea and come up with some other,
half big plan. This is Murder Holmes. I'm Matt Marinovich.
(02:35):
Jennifer Stall was a very resourceful New Yorker after her
acting career had faded away, highlighted by a brief stint
in the movie Dirty Dancing. She had built a recording
studio in her fifth floor walk up on Seventh Avenue,
and even recorded under the name Ganja Girl. But everyone
in New York knows someone who says they're an actor
(02:55):
or a musician. Eventually the conversation always turned to what's
your real Joe? Jennifer sold weed, and not just weed weed,
but top of the line, skunky smelling boutique cannabis, which
fetched upwards of one hundred and eighty dollars for a
quarter ounce, with names like jingle Bells, White Wolf, and
Piney next to the prices. And she didn't just sell
(03:17):
pot to anyone. Her clients were people just like her,
actors and musicians and writers, a cross section of people
who she saw only by appointment. If you were lucky
enough to get Jennifer's number, she'd give you a nickname,
and then you'd head to the doorway just to the
right of the Carnegie Delli where tourists sank their teeth
into overstuffed bystromy sandwiches, and you'd press her buzzer. Inside,
(03:40):
you'd walk past the lockers where the weight staff kept
their street clothes. The aroma of steam meat only fading
as you got to the fifth floor, a quick glance
through a peopole and a brightly painted pink door, and
then she'd let you in. It's unlikely you would have
been alone as you waited your turn. There were other
creative types there watching a game show on television, waiting
(04:03):
their turn to select white Wolf for Piney and hustle
back out passed the tourist taking selfies by the Carnegie
Delis Wall of Fame. In twenty twenty three, with hundreds
of legal weed shops open in New York, it's easy
to forget that buying pot twenty two years ago had
the thrill of an illicit activity you could still be
arrested for. Today there's a surplus of weed stores with
(04:26):
slick websites and increasingly competitive pricing. But back then you
had to have no small appetite for risk if you
wanted to deal big time out of an apartment above
one of New York's most famous delis, Rosamond Dane, whose
voice you heard at the beginning of this episode, was
one of Jennifer Stall's friends. She and her boyfriend Trey
were present the day Sean Sally and Andre Smith decided
(04:49):
to Rob Jennifer. I wanted to find out how she
first became friends with Jennifer and how often she visited her.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
When did I first meet her? In the bvis she
was married to dude Wendy.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
He called him Wendall Callwood and she married him, and
I first met her down there. I was importing at
the time, doing some Balinese imports and Mexican and Guatemalan
stuff and they had a little shop, so I got
to know Wendell and then actually didn't meet jen until
(05:24):
my ex introduced us, and that was on Saint John
where I was living, and she called me personally when
her and Wendy broke up. She was going through some
fucking trauma getting away from him.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
She needed a place to crash. So I had a
decent sized place.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
And the Master was like on its own, so she
could be all right away from the rest of my family.
It's a good thing I did, because she moved in
there and she just like immediately got sick for like
three days. She had some nasty bug, right, So that's
how our friendship began. She was at her fucking absolute worst,
(06:11):
but she pulled herself back up and we got to
hang out for a couple of months. She headed back
into New York and she started her life up there again.
She sort of restarted because, you know, over the next
several years, I had visited her a couple of times
in Manhattan if I was up there for something, notes
(06:33):
and you know, a family in the area, so I
might call her up and just go hang out for
a day. I saw her in the recording studios when
she was putting together a CD that was just a
maybe two years prior to this.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
On May tenth, two thousand and one, Rosemond was walking
up Seventh Avenue with her boyfriend Trey halliwell, they were
supposed to meet Jennifer at her apartment, but as soon
as they reached it, Rosemond felt like something was wrong.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
We were shopping all day.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think we were down in the village and we
were hanging out on the way to a movie and
got sidetracked to there, and I know I should have
listened to my gut.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
I didn't want to go in. I didn't want to
go up.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I was even bumming downstairs to procrastinate. I was like, Trey,
bring all our stuff up if you want to go in.
I just don't really want to go upstairs. Let's just
go the flick.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Is that like a bad feeling you had just generally.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
It's my gut.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, that was my gut, and I got talked out
of it, and it was Mayham.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I know what that kind of bad feeling is like,
when you know there's something off about a day. I
can see Rosamond standing in the doorway to the right
of the Carnegie Delli, with Trey finally walking inside and
shrudging up five flights of stairs, the sound of the
Carnegie Deli fading behind her, until they're in Jennifer's apartment,
where two of their friends are also with her, Stephen King,
(07:58):
who was thirty two years old, and a man named
Anthony Vader thirty seven, who was there to cut her hair.
As always, Jennifer played the perfect host, letting it joint
for all of them to share while taking care of
some last minute business at the same time. We'll be
back after a short break. We're back with Murder Homes.
(08:21):
I asked Rosamond to tell me what happened after they
joined the others in Jennifer Stall's.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Apartment, so just to kind of walk through it with fast.
You're then up there and it's the afternoon, right.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yeah, super chill by.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Anthony's there, as Steven's there, Jen's there, mis Trey and
I come in. He went into the back immediately to
go make some phone calls and put our stuff away,
and Jan being the lovely hostess she is, you know,
wants to hang out with their girl, and I want
to hang out with her, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So it was very nice. It was pretty relaxed. Doorbell rang,
she did it right away.
Speaker 5 (09:02):
Sally then comes up the stairs, he rings, He let
himself in. I think there was no lock downstairs right
near the Delhi.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think they had to get wrong in because Jennifer
set just turned to me and I was sitting next
to her, and she said, ash shit, I shouldn't have
fucking let him in kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
She didn't want to deal with him.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
A close circuit camera is now capturing grainy, fleeting images
of Sally and Smith as they enter the vestibule and
climb up the first flight of steps. The mood in
the apartment hasn't changed all that much. The friends sitting
in the front room still have a night and a
lifetime in front of them. It's a warm Thursday evening,
in New York, although the temperature has just begun to
(09:44):
drop the sneak preview of summer weather over down in
the Carnegie Deli, the waiters are slammed with the dinner rush,
balancing plates of chopped chicken, livers and lackez and corn
beef on their arms. Anthony Vader figures he'll wait until
Jennifer finishes dealing with the men on the way up,
and then he'll cut her hair. And Stephen King, who
has already stayed a little longer than he thought he would,
(10:06):
doesn't really mind. Rosamond is talking with her boyfriend, but
keeping an eye on Jennifer, who has gone from easygoing
to agitate it. Then they're at the door. Jennifer takes
a cursory peek through the people and she can already
see by Sally's expression that there's going to be an argument.
She knows she can handle it. It'll just be a
few ugly minutes of back and forth and then he'll
(10:28):
leave empty handed. Because she's done feeling sorry for some
pushy asshole from New York, she lets them in and
immediately Rosemond knows everything is going to go wrong.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
So they come in and having jackets.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
On over their clothes or over their jeans, because I
don't know what they had underneath the jackets.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
But from behind.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
They start taking out duct take first I saw, then
I saw the gun.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
So each of them had it and they pulled it out.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
And I'm a flight person, I know this about myself.
I flew to the closest doorway and so that I
know in Andrea Smith's hand was the gun.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
At that point to where I was pushed.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Against the wall away from I mean, everyone there was
sort of in the room, but I was in the hallway.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
And then what happens next, Well, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
So they're totally both of them are up in my
face and they're sort of had to switch what each
of them were doing, which was interesting.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
They're like, do not fucking look at me.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Don't even think about going to that door. You know,
here I am with a gun in my head saying
please don't hurt me. And Jennifer everyone's pretty much just cooperating,
but they're super nervous.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I thought they were super high before they came in.
That energy. I was like, holy shit, not stone.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Tied, like flying high, you know, adrenaline personified. It was
frightening to me, so I went into a survivor's mode.
I obviously was forced to stop, and I had and
I laid down, so I felt.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Them walking over me.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
In the hall, Jennifer went over heard some of the
things she was saying, don't hurt anyone, take whatever you whateut,
take it, get out. And then something happened with a gunshot.
But it was like a fuck you. It was like a.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Fuck you know.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Jennifer just had probably snapped and she wasn't laying on
the floor when I saw her. She was sitting in
there on a stool and just shot right in the head.
You know, it was pretty close. I was able to.
First of all, my legs weren't typed up, so that
(13:15):
shot when went off, my hands were taped, and three
other people were on the floor and Jennifer was in
her studio.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
So from there I went face down and I couldn't
see the room.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
At that point, right, I could only feel them walk
over me or could hear stuff. Right.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
What happens next takes approximately six minutes. Six minutes that
will be dissected in court over the course of two
separate trials, and then and then the next.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Part well, so the first gun shot, it's pretty deafening.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I don't know if you've been close to gunshots, but
it was a blur.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
And then I actually felt barrel of a gun on
my head and that was it. I didn't hear anything
after that. Really, I didn't hear much from the gunshots.
But it's like the door slammed and I was conscious again. Okay,
(14:24):
so my feet were free and this was duct tape.
So I took this stuff off immediately. And that's when
I saw Anthony and he had his cell phone in
his hand, and you saw how he was and I
went forward to No.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
I didn't go forward.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I didn't do that until after I saw Stephen. The
hard part was seeing.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
My three friends and Noah. I couldn't tell him that
I I had no idea I was even shot.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I had no idea I was bleeding and I didn't
get grazed.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I had a bullet lodged in my skull.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So now I can tell people I have a really
six call.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Rosemund. Is the bullet still in your skull? Or is it?
Did they remove it?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
No, they removed what they could you know?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Again, it scatters, so what could safely be removed, was removed.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
We'll be back after a short break. We're back with
Murder Homes. When Rosewand asked me if I've ever heard
a gunshot, it's the first time in this interview, I
feel a little guilty. She's one of the most positive,
brave people I've ever interviewed, but her question brings me
(15:59):
right into that room. I stumbled for an answer. I
fired a twenty two rifle at a cocaine, felt the
recoil of a shotgun on my shoulder, but not the
type of gunshot she's talking about. At close range. In
the apartment you live in, I can hear those gunshots,
smell the acrid gunpowder as Sally and Smith began executing
(16:19):
everyone in the room, pointing the barrel of a pistol
against the back of Stephen King's head, then Anthony Vaders,
then Trey Halliwells, who's inches away from his girlfriend Rosemond Dane,
and then finally Rosemond. I asked Rosamond about the nine
one one recording on record of Anthony calling the police
and what she remembers about it.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Anthony was on his phone and he was calling nine
to one one, and they asked where we were what
the address was. He made his own phone call possibly
and he probably watched.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
What I was doing.
Speaker 6 (16:53):
And I was with my lover on the ground and
I took the tape off his hands and just felt
his last breath out of his body, and I was
actually sort of.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
In just oppose, you know, like what the fuck.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
They actually questioned me much later on about this because
when I took my watch off, I had a man's
watch that I won from like a sail ragana, and
it was I wore.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
It, but it was loose on me.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It was a men's watch, so it must have come
off with the tape. And they were wondering, like why
I took like they had all questions about the duct
tape because I mean, thankfully they got a lot of
DNA off of it, but it was a big question,
like I immediately took his duct tape off his hand.
(17:51):
And while I'm just down talking to him and crying,
the phone rang and I turned to the phone. I
picked up the phone and I said, I don't know
what to tell you. I can't hear a thing, but
this is what happened, and you know, send some help.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
And that's all I could do.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
When the survivor of a violent crime talks to you.
There's only one thing I'm fairly sure of. It would
be indecent if you didn't put yourself in their place
and ask yourself, what do you do when two men
carrying guns say, don't look at my face. How does
the duct tape feel that's wound so tight it burst
the capillaries in your wrists? Is there a ringing in
your ears when you hear the gun shots? The shooter
(18:36):
making is way to you? What are you thinking when
the barrel of a gun is pressed against the back
of your skull? Twice I asked Rosamond that question selfishly.
I wanted to know if there was any profound thought
flashing through her mind, life racing by in a heartbeat,
the face of a loved one. Rosemond told me it
was anger. She felt a refusal, even with her wrist
(18:58):
bound with duct tape.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
To I was like, no, you are not.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
No, no fucking way, no, that's what I thought.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Four hours after I talked to Rosemond, details of those
six deadly minutes and Jennifer's apartment kept coming back to me.
One of these was the fact that if someone decides
to shoot you in the head. You're never going to
hear the gunshot. The bullet, of course, is going to
send you to oblivion before you even hear the sound.
Rosemond's oblivion only lasts miraculously a few minutes, and then
(19:39):
she's conscious again, the facts of the world around her
not adding up yet. She's unaware that she's been shot.
She's unaware that she's even bleeding, but she instinctively knows
her boyfriend Trey is taking his last breaths. Downstairs, the
closed circuit surveillance is catching a glimpse of Sally and
Smith hustling out onto a sidewalk crowded with pedestrians enjoying
(19:59):
a th Tuesday night in Midtown. Their take is one
point five pounds in marijuana and eight hundred dollars. Sometimes
I imagine a dreadful overlay covering every square foot of
the five borrows, itemizing the final transaction of lives for
dollars gained. The final petty amounts are almost always staggeringly depressing.
(20:22):
What a few finance bros spend on Almakasse at NAS
seventeen could cover a dozen lost lives in Jennifer's apartment.
All that Rosemond and Anthony Vader know is that they
were alive.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Did it feel like a long time before they showed
up the police?
Speaker 3 (20:39):
It was, and it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I turned and I saw Steve, and I what see
if he was he was breathing or anything, but that
was evident immediately. Jen didn't seem to be breathing. Trey
clearly was not breathing. Anthony was still on the floor
and he said he was okay. I I stood up
(21:01):
and I went to the front door. I opened up
the front door and I saw screamed them for help.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
I still didn't know I was shot. I still didn't
know I was bleeding. The cops came up. It didn't
seem that long. It was a little. I mean, it
was pretty quick.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
I got to say.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
They arrived pretty.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Quick and they ordered me down onto the ground, not
knowing anything. And they saw that I was shot, and
the ambulance came in and put me in a collar
and I was out to the ambulance to the street.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Rosemond Dane spent weeks in the hospital recovering from the
bullet wound in her head.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
I was induced to sleep from the surgery. In the meantime,
the cops wanted to talk to. These two guys are
at large and my brain needs to rest.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
So the real heroes came and like I.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Had a girlfriend whose husband is a heart surgeon. There
she came and washed blood out of my hair. No
one else did. No one else cared for me that way,
like she just she knew and people that you know
in those circumstances. Really I got tender, loving care from
(22:27):
the right places, my friends, trace family.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
But all the whole time.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
During this grieving and just the serious shock of healing
is all this man hunt.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Rosamond has never gotten over the loss of her boyfriend
and one of her best friends. She sent me an
email after the interview that has also stayed with me.
Here's what it said. Different people always told me to
just try to take it a step at a time
when the void from loss is so profound, taking any
step was painful. Twenty two years later, even those sideway
(23:05):
steps I stumbled through were motion in some direction. It's
that phrase sideway steps that I hope resonates with someone
who is listening to this podcast, someone who is perhaps
a survivor or a loved one who wants to understand
a survivor's struggle after a normal day is blown to pieces.
I never thought of sideway steps as being the bravest
steps of all, but that changed after the interview. I
(23:28):
found myself repeating the details of the crime that stayed
with me when I got on the phone with friends,
the feeling of premonition, how deafening the gunshots were in
the apartment, hugging her dying boyfriend, her friend washing the
blood out of her hair in the hospital. Rosemond is
a positive person, but she says she always knew it
(23:49):
was a cruel world.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
It's a cruel world when people want something they're in
and you know, reach extremes to take it if you
have what they want. So yeah, I thought that beforehand,
but that only forces me more into the moment of
you're really never prepared for the worst of the shit
(24:13):
that can come down.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I suppose that fact doesn't have to define you when
you leave your home in the morning or enter it
at night, but I agree that there's always something sinister
roaming out there. You can't brace for it. I vividly
remember the Carnegie Delli murders, the hunt for the suspects afterwards.
Smith gave himself up almost immediately they cornered that scumbag
(24:37):
Sally after he dove into some bushes in Miami, a
police dog sinking his teeth into his forearm, then hold
him back for his trial. The duct tape that had
been wound tight around Rosemond's wrist had been swabbed for DNA,
further implicating Sally in his accomplice. They were both sent
to prison for twenty five years to life. I considered
(25:00):
reaching out to Sally, but lost all interest in hearing
his voice after I talked to Rosemond on a prison
dating website. There's a short blurb he's written about himself,
stating that he's quote a real individual who is loyal,
loving and caring. He's looking for someone who can match
his energy and heart, spirit and mind. The Carnegie Deli
(25:21):
closed one day before New Year's twenty sixteen. Tourists and
nostalgic New Yorkers lined up for a block to have
one last taste of the infamous four inch high strowmy sandwiches.
There are countless photographs of the famous Delhi online. It's comforting.
Red Neon sign in that pleasing cursive lettering an awning
that says, quote, we make our own pastries, meat pickles.
(25:44):
But today there's nothing left of the Delhi. Its insides
are scraped out, scaffolding darkening the sidewalk, the skeletal remains
of a once bright, red awning still leading to that
infamous doorway of eight fifty four Seventh Avenue.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Day.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
A one bedroom apartment above the old Deli with plenty
of light, parquet flooring and vaguely modern appliances can be
all yours for five hundred and thirty thousand dollars. This
is Murder Holmes. I'm Matt Marinovitch.
Speaker 5 (26:37):
Murder Holmes is created by an executive producer by Matt Marinovich.
Executive producers are Jennifer Bassett and Taylor Chicoine. Story editor
is Jennifer Bassett. Supervising producer is Carl Kaitel. Producer is
Evan Tyre. Sound designed by Taylor Chicoine, Evan Tyre and
Carl Katle. Special thanks to Ali Perry and Nikietour. Murder
(27:05):
Holmes is a production of iHeart Podcasts. For more shows
from iHeart Podcasts, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Murder Holmes is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
It was a blur of one, two, three, four shots total,
and then I actually felt the barrel of a gun
on my head, so I knew what was coming.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
And that was it.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Sean Sally was in a foul mood when he cornered
Andre Smith on a street in Newark in two thousand
and one. He'd just been fired from his latest job
when he pulled a gun on a fellow employee, and
he was desperate to scrounge up some extra cash. The
two men, each thirty years old, weren't exactly friends, but
they partnered up on low level drug deals in the
past and now. Sally told Smith he had a can't
(00:51):
miss way of raking in some dough and a lot
of weed. He knew a woman who sold marijuana in
her fifth floor apartment above the Carnegie Deli in mid Manhattan.
He told Smith that she was willing to split the
profits on some of her cast off weed, and had
given him some to sell a couple of times before.
He'd grudgingly split the profits with her after selling it
(01:11):
a Newark. But he also knew how much he was
making selling the good stuff to people who could afford it.
Her name was Jennifer Staal Another chump change split on
Jennifer's leftovers wasn't what Sally was gamed for. He had
a new plan, and it had formed feverishly in his
mind over the.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Past few days.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
He told Smith he wanted to rob her as well,
and the job would be a cinch. All they had
to do was walk in with some duct tape because
she always had a few customers waiting in the front room.
Wave a gun around and she'd give them everything they wanted.
Smith watched Sally walk away, already fill with doubt about
the robbery. Everyone knew Sally was a hothead and not
(01:54):
the brightest bulb on the block, but Smith also knew
he was the kind of guy you didn't say no to.
He didn't want to be on Sally's shit list. The
most he could do was hope that Sally would forget
about the whole idea and come up with some other,
half big plan. This is Murder Holmes. I'm Matt Marinovich.
(02:35):
Jennifer Stall was a very resourceful New Yorker after her
acting career had faded away, highlighted by a brief stint
in the movie Dirty Dancing. She had built a recording
studio in her fifth floor walk up on Seventh Avenue,
and even recorded under the name Ganja Girl. But everyone
in New York knows someone who says they're an actor
(02:55):
or a musician. Eventually the conversation always turned to what's
your real Joe? Jennifer sold weed, and not just weed weed,
but top of the line, skunky smelling boutique cannabis, which
fetched upwards of one hundred and eighty dollars for a
quarter ounce, with names like jingle Bells, White Wolf, and
Piney next to the prices. And she didn't just sell
(03:17):
pot to anyone. Her clients were people just like her,
actors and musicians and writers, a cross section of people
who she saw only by appointment. If you were lucky
enough to get Jennifer's number, she'd give you a nickname,
and then you'd head to the doorway just to the
right of the Carnegie Delli where tourists sank their teeth
into overstuffed bystromy sandwiches, and you'd press her buzzer. Inside,
(03:40):
you'd walk past the lockers where the weight staff kept
their street clothes. The aroma of steam meat only fading
as you got to the fifth floor, a quick glance
through a peopole and a brightly painted pink door, and
then she'd let you in. It's unlikely you would have
been alone as you waited your turn. There were other
creative types there watching a game show on television, waiting
(04:03):
their turn to select white Wolf for Piney and hustle
back out passed the tourist taking selfies by the Carnegie
Delis Wall of Fame. In twenty twenty three, with hundreds
of legal weed shops open in New York, it's easy
to forget that buying pot twenty two years ago had
the thrill of an illicit activity you could still be
arrested for. Today there's a surplus of weed stores with
(04:26):
slick websites and increasingly competitive pricing. But back then you
had to have no small appetite for risk if you
wanted to deal big time out of an apartment above
one of New York's most famous delis, Rosamond Dane, whose
voice you heard at the beginning of this episode, was
one of Jennifer Stall's friends. She and her boyfriend Trey
were present the day Sean Sally and Andre Smith decided
(04:49):
to Rob Jennifer. I wanted to find out how she
first became friends with Jennifer and how often she visited her.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
When did I first meet her? In the bvis she
was married to dude Wendy.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
He called him Wendall Callwood and she married him, and
I first met her down there. I was importing at
the time, doing some Balinese imports and Mexican and Guatemalan
stuff and they had a little shop, so I got
to know Wendell and then actually didn't meet jen until
(05:24):
my ex introduced us, and that was on Saint John
where I was living, and she called me personally when
her and Wendy broke up. She was going through some
fucking trauma getting away from him.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
She needed a place to crash. So I had a
decent sized place.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
And the Master was like on its own, so she
could be all right away from the rest of my family.
It's a good thing I did, because she moved in
there and she just like immediately got sick for like
three days. She had some nasty bug, right, So that's
how our friendship began. She was at her fucking absolute worst,
(06:11):
but she pulled herself back up and we got to
hang out for a couple of months. She headed back
into New York and she started her life up there again.
She sort of restarted because, you know, over the next
several years, I had visited her a couple of times
in Manhattan if I was up there for something, notes
(06:33):
and you know, a family in the area, so I
might call her up and just go hang out for
a day. I saw her in the recording studios when
she was putting together a CD that was just a
maybe two years prior to this.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
On May tenth, two thousand and one, Rosemond was walking
up Seventh Avenue with her boyfriend Trey halliwell, they were
supposed to meet Jennifer at her apartment, but as soon
as they reached it, Rosemond felt like something was wrong.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
We were shopping all day.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think we were down in the village and we
were hanging out on the way to a movie and
got sidetracked to there, and I know I should have
listened to my gut.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
I didn't want to go in. I didn't want to
go up.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I was even bumming downstairs to procrastinate. I was like, Trey,
bring all our stuff up if you want to go in.
I just don't really want to go upstairs. Let's just
go the flick.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Is that like a bad feeling you had just generally.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
It's my gut.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, that was my gut, and I got talked out
of it, and it was Mayham.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I know what that kind of bad feeling is like,
when you know there's something off about a day. I
can see Rosamond standing in the doorway to the right
of the Carnegie Delli, with Trey finally walking inside and
shrudging up five flights of stairs, the sound of the
Carnegie Deli fading behind her, until they're in Jennifer's apartment,
where two of their friends are also with her, Stephen King,
(07:58):
who was thirty two years old, and a man named
Anthony Vader thirty seven, who was there to cut her hair.
As always, Jennifer played the perfect host, letting it joint
for all of them to share while taking care of
some last minute business at the same time. We'll be
back after a short break. We're back with Murder Homes.
(08:21):
I asked Rosamond to tell me what happened after they
joined the others in Jennifer Stall's.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Apartment, so just to kind of walk through it with fast.
You're then up there and it's the afternoon, right.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yeah, super chill by.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Anthony's there, as Steven's there, Jen's there, mis Trey and
I come in. He went into the back immediately to
go make some phone calls and put our stuff away,
and Jan being the lovely hostess she is, you know,
wants to hang out with their girl, and I want
to hang out with her, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So it was very nice. It was pretty relaxed. Doorbell rang,
she did it right away.
Speaker 5 (09:02):
Sally then comes up the stairs, he rings, He let
himself in. I think there was no lock downstairs right
near the Delhi.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think they had to get wrong in because Jennifer
set just turned to me and I was sitting next
to her, and she said, ash shit, I shouldn't have
fucking let him in kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
She didn't want to deal with him.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
A close circuit camera is now capturing grainy, fleeting images
of Sally and Smith as they enter the vestibule and
climb up the first flight of steps. The mood in
the apartment hasn't changed all that much. The friends sitting
in the front room still have a night and a
lifetime in front of them. It's a warm Thursday evening,
in New York, although the temperature has just begun to
(09:44):
drop the sneak preview of summer weather over down in
the Carnegie Deli, the waiters are slammed with the dinner rush,
balancing plates of chopped chicken, livers and lackez and corn
beef on their arms. Anthony Vader figures he'll wait until
Jennifer finishes dealing with the men on the way up,
and then he'll cut her hair. And Stephen King, who
has already stayed a little longer than he thought he would,
(10:06):
doesn't really mind. Rosamond is talking with her boyfriend, but
keeping an eye on Jennifer, who has gone from easygoing
to agitate it. Then they're at the door. Jennifer takes
a cursory peek through the people and she can already
see by Sally's expression that there's going to be an argument.
She knows she can handle it. It'll just be a
few ugly minutes of back and forth and then he'll
(10:28):
leave empty handed. Because she's done feeling sorry for some
pushy asshole from New York, she lets them in and
immediately Rosemond knows everything is going to go wrong.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
So they come in and having jackets.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
On over their clothes or over their jeans, because I
don't know what they had underneath the jackets.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
But from behind.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
They start taking out duct take first I saw, then
I saw the gun.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
So each of them had it and they pulled it out.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
And I'm a flight person, I know this about myself.
I flew to the closest doorway and so that I
know in Andrea Smith's hand was the gun.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
At that point to where I was pushed.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Against the wall away from I mean, everyone there was
sort of in the room, but I was in the hallway.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
And then what happens next, Well, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
So they're totally both of them are up in my
face and they're sort of had to switch what each
of them were doing, which was interesting.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
They're like, do not fucking look at me.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Don't even think about going to that door. You know,
here I am with a gun in my head saying
please don't hurt me. And Jennifer everyone's pretty much just cooperating,
but they're super nervous.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I thought they were super high before they came in.
That energy. I was like, holy shit, not stone.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Tied, like flying high, you know, adrenaline personified. It was
frightening to me, so I went into a survivor's mode.
I obviously was forced to stop, and I had and
I laid down, so I felt.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Them walking over me.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
In the hall, Jennifer went over heard some of the
things she was saying, don't hurt anyone, take whatever you whateut,
take it, get out. And then something happened with a gunshot.
But it was like a fuck you. It was like a.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Fuck you know.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Jennifer just had probably snapped and she wasn't laying on
the floor when I saw her. She was sitting in
there on a stool and just shot right in the head.
You know, it was pretty close. I was able to.
First of all, my legs weren't typed up, so that
(13:15):
shot when went off, my hands were taped, and three
other people were on the floor and Jennifer was in
her studio.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
So from there I went face down and I couldn't
see the room.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
At that point, right, I could only feel them walk
over me or could hear stuff. Right.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
What happens next takes approximately six minutes. Six minutes that
will be dissected in court over the course of two
separate trials, and then and then the next.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Part well, so the first gun shot, it's pretty deafening.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I don't know if you've been close to gunshots, but
it was a blur.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
And then I actually felt barrel of a gun on
my head and that was it. I didn't hear anything
after that. Really, I didn't hear much from the gunshots.
But it's like the door slammed and I was conscious again. Okay,
(14:24):
so my feet were free and this was duct tape.
So I took this stuff off immediately. And that's when
I saw Anthony and he had his cell phone in
his hand, and you saw how he was and I
went forward to No.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
I didn't go forward.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I didn't do that until after I saw Stephen. The
hard part was seeing.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
My three friends and Noah. I couldn't tell him that
I I had no idea I was even shot.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I had no idea I was bleeding and I didn't
get grazed.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I had a bullet lodged in my skull.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So now I can tell people I have a really
six call.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Rosemund. Is the bullet still in your skull? Or is it?
Did they remove it?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
No, they removed what they could you know?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Again, it scatters, so what could safely be removed, was removed.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
We'll be back after a short break. We're back with
Murder Homes. When Rosewand asked me if I've ever heard
a gunshot, it's the first time in this interview, I
feel a little guilty. She's one of the most positive,
brave people I've ever interviewed, but her question brings me
(15:59):
right into that room. I stumbled for an answer. I
fired a twenty two rifle at a cocaine, felt the
recoil of a shotgun on my shoulder, but not the
type of gunshot she's talking about. At close range. In
the apartment you live in, I can hear those gunshots,
smell the acrid gunpowder as Sally and Smith began executing
(16:19):
everyone in the room, pointing the barrel of a pistol
against the back of Stephen King's head, then Anthony Vaders,
then Trey Halliwells, who's inches away from his girlfriend Rosemond Dane,
and then finally Rosemond. I asked Rosamond about the nine
one one recording on record of Anthony calling the police
and what she remembers about it.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Anthony was on his phone and he was calling nine
to one one, and they asked where we were what
the address was. He made his own phone call possibly
and he probably watched.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
What I was doing.
Speaker 6 (16:53):
And I was with my lover on the ground and
I took the tape off his hands and just felt
his last breath out of his body, and I was
actually sort of.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
In just oppose, you know, like what the fuck.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
They actually questioned me much later on about this because
when I took my watch off, I had a man's
watch that I won from like a sail ragana, and
it was I wore.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
It, but it was loose on me.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It was a men's watch, so it must have come
off with the tape. And they were wondering, like why
I took like they had all questions about the duct
tape because I mean, thankfully they got a lot of
DNA off of it, but it was a big question,
like I immediately took his duct tape off his hand.
(17:51):
And while I'm just down talking to him and crying,
the phone rang and I turned to the phone. I
picked up the phone and I said, I don't know
what to tell you. I can't hear a thing, but
this is what happened, and you know, send some help.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
And that's all I could do.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
When the survivor of a violent crime talks to you.
There's only one thing I'm fairly sure of. It would
be indecent if you didn't put yourself in their place
and ask yourself, what do you do when two men
carrying guns say, don't look at my face. How does
the duct tape feel that's wound so tight it burst
the capillaries in your wrists? Is there a ringing in
your ears when you hear the gun shots? The shooter
(18:36):
making is way to you? What are you thinking when
the barrel of a gun is pressed against the back
of your skull? Twice I asked Rosamond that question selfishly.
I wanted to know if there was any profound thought
flashing through her mind, life racing by in a heartbeat,
the face of a loved one. Rosemond told me it
was anger. She felt a refusal, even with her wrist
(18:58):
bound with duct tape.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
To I was like, no, you are not.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
No, no fucking way, no, that's what I thought.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Four hours after I talked to Rosemond, details of those
six deadly minutes and Jennifer's apartment kept coming back to me.
One of these was the fact that if someone decides
to shoot you in the head. You're never going to
hear the gunshot. The bullet, of course, is going to
send you to oblivion before you even hear the sound.
Rosemond's oblivion only lasts miraculously a few minutes, and then
(19:39):
she's conscious again, the facts of the world around her
not adding up yet. She's unaware that she's been shot.
She's unaware that she's even bleeding, but she instinctively knows
her boyfriend Trey is taking his last breaths. Downstairs, the
closed circuit surveillance is catching a glimpse of Sally and
Smith hustling out onto a sidewalk crowded with pedestrians enjoying
(19:59):
a th Tuesday night in Midtown. Their take is one
point five pounds in marijuana and eight hundred dollars. Sometimes
I imagine a dreadful overlay covering every square foot of
the five borrows, itemizing the final transaction of lives for
dollars gained. The final petty amounts are almost always staggeringly depressing.
(20:22):
What a few finance bros spend on Almakasse at NAS
seventeen could cover a dozen lost lives in Jennifer's apartment.
All that Rosemond and Anthony Vader know is that they
were alive.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Did it feel like a long time before they showed
up the police?
Speaker 3 (20:39):
It was, and it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I turned and I saw Steve, and I what see
if he was he was breathing or anything, but that
was evident immediately. Jen didn't seem to be breathing. Trey
clearly was not breathing. Anthony was still on the floor
and he said he was okay. I I stood up
(21:01):
and I went to the front door. I opened up
the front door and I saw screamed them for help.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
I still didn't know I was shot. I still didn't
know I was bleeding. The cops came up. It didn't
seem that long. It was a little. I mean, it
was pretty quick.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
I got to say.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
They arrived pretty.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Quick and they ordered me down onto the ground, not
knowing anything. And they saw that I was shot, and
the ambulance came in and put me in a collar
and I was out to the ambulance to the street.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Rosemond Dane spent weeks in the hospital recovering from the
bullet wound in her head.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
I was induced to sleep from the surgery. In the meantime,
the cops wanted to talk to. These two guys are
at large and my brain needs to rest.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
So the real heroes came and like I.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Had a girlfriend whose husband is a heart surgeon. There
she came and washed blood out of my hair. No
one else did. No one else cared for me that way,
like she just she knew and people that you know
in those circumstances. Really I got tender, loving care from
(22:27):
the right places, my friends, trace family.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
But all the whole time.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
During this grieving and just the serious shock of healing
is all this man hunt.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Rosamond has never gotten over the loss of her boyfriend
and one of her best friends. She sent me an
email after the interview that has also stayed with me.
Here's what it said. Different people always told me to
just try to take it a step at a time
when the void from loss is so profound, taking any
step was painful. Twenty two years later, even those sideway
(23:05):
steps I stumbled through were motion in some direction. It's
that phrase sideway steps that I hope resonates with someone
who is listening to this podcast, someone who is perhaps
a survivor or a loved one who wants to understand
a survivor's struggle after a normal day is blown to pieces.
I never thought of sideway steps as being the bravest
steps of all, but that changed after the interview. I
(23:28):
found myself repeating the details of the crime that stayed
with me when I got on the phone with friends,
the feeling of premonition, how deafening the gunshots were in
the apartment, hugging her dying boyfriend, her friend washing the
blood out of her hair in the hospital. Rosemond is
a positive person, but she says she always knew it
(23:49):
was a cruel world.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
It's a cruel world when people want something they're in
and you know, reach extremes to take it if you
have what they want. So yeah, I thought that beforehand,
but that only forces me more into the moment of
you're really never prepared for the worst of the shit
(24:13):
that can come down.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I suppose that fact doesn't have to define you when
you leave your home in the morning or enter it
at night, but I agree that there's always something sinister
roaming out there. You can't brace for it. I vividly
remember the Carnegie Delli murders, the hunt for the suspects afterwards.
Smith gave himself up almost immediately they cornered that scumbag
(24:37):
Sally after he dove into some bushes in Miami, a
police dog sinking his teeth into his forearm, then hold
him back for his trial. The duct tape that had
been wound tight around Rosemond's wrist had been swabbed for DNA,
further implicating Sally in his accomplice. They were both sent
to prison for twenty five years to life. I considered
(25:00):
reaching out to Sally, but lost all interest in hearing
his voice after I talked to Rosemond on a prison
dating website. There's a short blurb he's written about himself,
stating that he's quote a real individual who is loyal,
loving and caring. He's looking for someone who can match
his energy and heart, spirit and mind. The Carnegie Deli
(25:21):
closed one day before New Year's twenty sixteen. Tourists and
nostalgic New Yorkers lined up for a block to have
one last taste of the infamous four inch high strowmy sandwiches.
There are countless photographs of the famous Delhi online. It's comforting.
Red Neon sign in that pleasing cursive lettering an awning
that says, quote, we make our own pastries, meat pickles.
(25:44):
But today there's nothing left of the Delhi. Its insides
are scraped out, scaffolding darkening the sidewalk, the skeletal remains
of a once bright, red awning still leading to that
infamous doorway of eight fifty four Seventh Avenue.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Day.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
A one bedroom apartment above the old Deli with plenty
of light, parquet flooring and vaguely modern appliances can be
all yours for five hundred and thirty thousand dollars. This
is Murder Holmes. I'm Matt Marinovitch.
Speaker 5 (26:37):
Murder Holmes is created by an executive producer by Matt Marinovich.
Executive producers are Jennifer Bassett and Taylor Chicoine. Story editor
is Jennifer Bassett. Supervising producer is Carl Kaitel. Producer is
Evan Tyre. Sound designed by Taylor Chicoine, Evan Tyre and
Carl Katle. Special thanks to Ali Perry and Nikietour. Murder
(27:05):
Holmes is a production of iHeart Podcasts. For more shows
from iHeart Podcasts, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Matt Marinovich
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