December 13, 2023 • 30 mins
When a beautiful woman named Rebecca Zahau is found hanging naked from a balcony of one of the most expensive mansions in Coronado, California, bound and gagged, authorities are quick to rule her death a suicide. As new, troubling facts emerge about the case, suspicion begins to fall on her brother-in-law, who cut her down and tried to save her as he talked to 911. Nothing is as it seems as airtight alibis slowly unravel, and even the intricate clove-hitch knots she supposedly tied around her wrists are removed from cardboard tubes and presented to a spellbound jury.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Murder Homes is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
See what You're reporting A girl Hunger? It's an old
across from.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
The hotel play that you the today.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Okay, so what is the end there? On July thirteenth,
twenty eleven, it seemed like any summer morning in Coronado, California.
Waiters swept crumbs off the white tablecloths at the Grand
Victorian Hotel del Coronado and refreshed tourist coffee cups. Surfers
paddled into the first pale blue swells of the day,
(00:51):
and the first batches of sun Bayth's wandered down to
the beach, umbrellas and coolers in hand. But that early
morning tranquility was soon broken by the clattering sound of
a police helicopter hovering over a sprawling mansion that overlooked
the ocean. Soon three other news helicopters joined in the
cloudless blue sky, their cameras trained on the nude body
(01:13):
of a young woman lying in the courtyard below, her
wrists still bound with bright red polypropylene rope. The young
woman who was found in the courtyard was named Rebecca Zow,
a Burmese American immigrant who was thirty two years old.
She had been found hanging from a wrought iron balcony
at the mansion, where she'd been staying by herself the
previous night, except for one other person who was sleeping
(01:36):
in the guest home. His name was Adam Shacknai and
he was the brother of Rebecca's boyfriend, Jonah. Adam had
flown in the day before because of a family emergency.
Jonah's son Max had fallen from the second floor staircase
of the mansion and critically injured himself. Rebecca had picked
Adam up at the airport because Jonah had been keeping
(01:56):
vigil by his son's bedside in the hospital. The Grand Home,
known as Spreckel's Mansion for the sugar company tycoon who
had commissioned it, is a ten bedroom mansion that boasts
one of the best locations in San Diego County. Directly
across the street from the beach, the historic home offers
glorious views of the Pacific Ocean. Boasting high wood beam ceilings,
(02:17):
wrought iron balconies, and red tail roofing, the ten thy,
five hundred square foot mansion is considered one of the
architectural jewels of Karnada. Now it is known as the
location of Rebecca Zoo's mysterious death. This is Murder Holmes.
I'm Matt Murdovitch. According to Rebecca's autopsy report, her ankles
(02:49):
had been bound and her arms tied behind her back.
A black T shirt used to gag her mouth. The
death had been ruled a suicide. The moment the medical
examiner made is the term nation. He set off a
controversy that has continued to divide the Coronado community to
this day. Authorities believe they had a credible motive for
(03:10):
self harm. Rebecca was distraught after Max, who she was
caring for, had critically injured himself. Though she had told
police she had tried to perform CPR and the critically
injured boy, his condition was worsening. At the time of
her death. Her boyfriend and the boy's father, Jonah Shackni,
was in a state of shock. He had not returned
to the mansion the night before Rebecca was found hanging.
(03:33):
Only two people occupied the sprawling home that final night,
Adam Shackney and Rebecca. Just before she is said to
have killed herself, Zao had illigedly written the following words
in black paint on the bedroom door that she had
been using as her art studio inside the home. This
is what it said. She saved him, Can he save her?
(03:56):
The medical examiner said she had gagged herself, tied a
rope around the bed, wrapped the other end of it
around her neck, bound her feet and hands, and threw
herself off the second floor balcony. Adam Shakni had found
her early in the morning of the thirteenth, hanging from
the balcony in the rear courtyard. He was going to
fetch an early morning cup of coffee when he saw
her suspended, lifeless, and then he told the police he
(04:19):
cut her down. At the time of her death, Zio's boyfriend,
Jonah Shakni, was CEO of Medicis Pharmaceuticals, a medical cosmetic
company that was worth two point six billion dollars. Jonah
had purchased Spreckl's mansion in two thousand and seven. Rebecca
and Jonah had met in two thousand and eight, when
she was still married and working as an ophthalmic technician.
(04:42):
She got along well with his son Max, to the
point where the boy's mother became a little jealous. In
terms of her past there was one notable event that
occurred a year after she had met Jonah. She had
shoplifted one thousand dollars worth of jewelry from Macy's in Phoenix, Arizona.
It was strange because she was a year into a
earlytionship with a man who was the ninth wealthiest CEO
in the state. I spoke to Caitlin Crowther, author of
(05:06):
Death on Ocean Boulevard, the New York Times best selling
book about the Rebecca's out case. A native of San Diego,
Caitlyn's interest was immediately piqued by the mysterious death. Here's
what Caitlyn told me.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
I think one thing is that pretty much everyone that
comes up to me says she was definitely murdered. Nobody
wants to believe that a woman would do this to herself.
That's what I hear primarily over and over again. A
woman would never do this to herself.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Caitlyn spoke to Jonah shack Night, Rebecca's boyfriend, a number
of times as research for her book. She said that
her interviews with him left her with more questions than answers.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Jonah I interviewed eight times on Skype for an hour
and a half two hours each time, and that was
right before I was about to turn the book in,
so I had to go back in and rewrite a
bunch of stuff, change a bunch of stuff. But it
was great because he was her boyfriend and he knew
her really well, and what he told me basically showed
that she was not the person that her family really
(06:10):
thought she was. That's what she showed them, But she
had other parts to her that she showed other people.
She told different stories to different people about the same
thing that happened, but everybody got a different version. He
says now that he thinks that she killed herself, but
initially he was more concerned that somebody might be after
(06:32):
him because he didn't think she would have done this
to him the way that she did it, because it
would have brought such embarrassment to him, and it was
causing his stock to fall because he looked like he
was a suspect, and he actually asked the Sheriff's department,
can't you publicly declare that I'm not a suspect, which
is what caused people to believe that he was asking
(06:55):
for special treatment and that the Sheriff's department gave him
special treatment, and that's where us case really took off.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
We'll be back after a short break. We're back with
murder Hums. After the medical examiner ruled Zao's death suicide,
authorities considered the case closed. But if they hoped this
would make it go away, they were mistaken. From the
moment TV helicopters had hovered over Spreckel's mansion, filming her
(07:25):
nude body on the grass. The case became a favorite
of true crime buffs and internet sluice. The Zoo family,
who always felt their daughter was murdered, were also infuriated,
and they finally got their day in court. Although it
was a civil trial, they were still finally able to
face the man who they believed in murdered Rebecca and
cold blood Adam Shacknei Jonah Shacknai's beloved brother. Even the sheriff,
(07:50):
Bill Gore, admitted that he understood the public's skepticism about
what had happened at Spreckel's mansion. It's an unusual case,
he said. It lends itself to conspiracy theories. There were
many areas of concern, but these were quickly distilled into
the six biggest mysteries about Rebecca's death. Just like the
knots found on Rebecca's body, they tended to tighten as
(08:11):
more and more experts pulled on them in an effort
to untangle fact from fiction. The first mystery is how
had Rebecca managed to tie her arms behind her own
back before leaping to her death. I asked Caitlin what
she knew.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
About this, So there's a lot to do with the
knots during the trial, and also what Adam told me
in an interview on the witness stand. He said, you know, yes,
I'm a talk about captain, but I don't know how
to tie these knots. And he told me afterwards he
was upset with his attorneys because he felt like they
(08:46):
were complicated knots when the attorneys tried to make it
sound very simple, like a bird or a monkey could
tie these knots. And so Adam basically said, you know,
I have to take these tests, but I don't know
how to tie these knots. And in fact, I did
some research and I think that there this Japanese erotic
bondage art form. And so my question is who in
(09:14):
this case knows about bondage because it's a weird way
to be tied up. I mean, if she did it
to herself, where would she get that idea. There's nothing
on her computer that showed she ever did any research
into this. I asked Jonah Shacknai straight out, did you
guys have this in your relationship? He says, not with me,
(09:37):
So that's one of the mysteries. But when we were
in trial, this is a house expert did this super
complicated series of knots and said, this is how I
think they were done. I have examined the knots because
they saved them. They pulled them off her body and
put them on cardboard tubes, and the Sheriff's department also
did a video to show that this is how it
(09:58):
could have been done. He said, whatever the sheriff did
was a much more simplified version of what was actually
on her body.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Caitlin's mention of the possibility that the knots found on
Rebecca's wrists and ankles might have been tied to a
Japanese bondage form got me thinking what if it were,
and who might I ask? I decided I had to
talk to someone who knew a lot about knots and
a rope play in Japanese bondage, or more specifically, a
type of rope play in the BDSM community called shabari.
(10:29):
Shabari is the act of restricting the mobility of the
human body with the help of thin ropes. These thin
ropes are known as asanawa. I connected with one of
the most renowned practitioners of shabari, a Russian named Maxim Kalahari,
whose invite only bondage workshops in far flung exotic locales
that goa have become infamous. He spoke to me from
(10:51):
Indonesia with his girlfriend translating so with Rebecca Zau. Did
you get a chance to look at the photographs?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yes, yes, yes, I see.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Is it possible that that kind of knot would be
used in road play or b d s m as.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
He said that for sure this not is done not
by professional.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
That's very interesting. Is it something that's ever used in
road play or bondage the corregion Mochi.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yo us He says that this not looks like the
not that could be done by a person who do
it first time or done not often, so it's not
professional one.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
But to go back to the question in the community,
I'm going to say road play is part of maybe
B D S M. Right. Have you ever seen it
use like a clove hitch, not as far as with
shabari or role play.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
No, no, it's not sabari. In Sabari we always tart
time double ropes. We don't time single ropes. The person
who has done this do it very quickly.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
He was in hurry or the model if resistance it
was like a role play, she played like she wanted
to escape or not without He can think about three
reasons on he never do this before, or he was
(12:40):
in hurry, very in hurry, or she did some resistance
without any knowledge about how to do and practice his
things that it's impossible to do herself. Behind that, the.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Highly staged nature of the alleged suicide, the intricate binding
of wrist ankles, the gag in the mouth, the nudity,
it did seem beyond the capability of a highly distraught,
suicidal person. Seven years later, at a civil trial, Rebecca
Zo's family finally had the feeling that there might be
some closure. The jury listened as Rebecca's family lawyer walked
(13:21):
them through the final hour, again sketching out what he
had believed happened. Handwriting expert was brought to the stand
to testify that the message painted on the door fit
Shacknai's handwriting pattern. A knot tying expert was brought into
the courtroom to demonstrate that the knots were most likely
tied by someone other than Zau. He leaned over a
mannekin draped with a white sheet, and jurors watched him
(13:44):
retie the same knots that had bound Rebecca. He tightened
the rope and figure eights and explained the clove hitch
and overhand knots. Adam Shakni, the lawyer, pointed out, was
well versed in the use of knots, of which the
clove hitch was one. He was a tugboat captain on
the Mississippi River. Adam Shackni's lawyer countered that his client's
(14:06):
DNA had never been found on the rope, not one
strand of it. Is it conceivable that it might have
been wiped down, or, as Caitlin Rother suggested when we spoke,
that someone could have used gloves. Sure, that was a
theoretical possibility, but nothing else connected him to the bedroom
where Rebecca had spent her last moments. A sheriff's investigator
would later demonstrate how Rebecca could slip one hand out,
(14:29):
hold both hands behind her back, slip her loose hand
back into the knot, and tighten it, which brings us
to the second mystery of the Zou case. The seven
words Rebecca had allegedly painted on the bedroom door she
saved him? Can you save her? The plaintiff's lawyer contended
that they had been left by Adam Shacknin after the
(14:49):
handwriting analyst left the stand. Adam Shackni's lawyer countered that
a murderer wouldn't want to draw attention to himself by
leaving a message on the wall. He told the jury
that the cryptic message would have been left by Rebecca,
who was not in a rational state of mind. The
message itself, to me is tantalizing. It both makes sense
and doesn't. She saved him contradicts what actually happen. Considering
(15:14):
that Rebecca had told Jonah she was in the bathroom
at the moment Max had fallen from the second floor staircase,
can you say of her? Is even more mysterious. Is
she talking about Max or Jonah or someone else? Or
is this really Adam's handwriting trying to throw police off
his track. Adam Shacknay, the younger, devoted brother, would have
(15:34):
felt enraged too after seeing his nephew, six year old Max,
in critical condition at the hospital. Would he have felt
so overwhelmed with anger that he waited until Rebecca fell
asleep that night? Could he have bludgeoned her unconscious, bound her,
gagged her, and thrown her over the balcony, watching her
swing just a few feef in the lush manicured grass,
her toenails painted a glossy red. What did the seven
(15:58):
words painted in black on the door? She saved him?
Can he save her?
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Mean?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And is it conceivable that someone besides Rebecca had left
them there? Here's what Caitlyn told me.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Nobody is willing to say what that message really means
because nobody really knows. But she came from a religious family,
she had a religious upbringing. You can you save her?
Could be God? I heard one theory that she was
angry with Jonah, which is reflected in the note as
I mentioned, and that maybe this was a message to
(16:30):
him what she did to herself. If it was a suicide,
that she was angry at him, and wanted to embarrass him. So,
I mean you, I don't know if you use Jonah,
is you God? Is you the killer? I mean, who
is it? We don't know who it is. But the
fact of the matter is is a very strange message.
The strokes with the paint look pretty angry. There have
(16:53):
been other people who are staging scene experts who say
the whole scene was angry. She was placed in this
demeaning position with her hands tied behind her, her ankles bound.
The house attorney also suggested that she may have been
hogtied previously. Yes, the lividity of her body and the
(17:15):
way the blood is positioned only on one side of
the body and not in her feet where it should
have been when she was hanging. There's so many things
with this. The fact that she wasn't decapitated. If she
really fell with that force nine feet jumping off, why
wasn't she decapitated from the force of it. Why did
she only have these minor injuries with the cartilage's very
(17:37):
similar injuries by the way with Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And then there's the third mystery, the latex glove and
menstrul blood found on a knife in the bedroom a
latex glove was found in a crawl space under the
guest house where Adam was staying. Was this evidence that
Adam had used the glove to hide his fingerprints. The
defense stressed that there were no visible signs that the
latex glove may cometac with any surface. At one of
(18:01):
fourth Reocean Boulevard, including the bedroom where Zoo spent her
final moments, the zal family attorney said that a knife
had been found in Rebecca's bedroom with menstrual blood on
the handle. He said that this was evidence that it
was inserted into her body in a sexual assault. The
medical Examiner's office found no evidence of a sexual assault.
(18:22):
The fourth mystery is Rebecca's blunt force injuries. Four blunt
force injuries were found on Rebecca's head in the autopsy.
The prosecution maintained these wounds were caused after Rebecca jumped
off the balcony and subsequently hid her head on the
balcony floor as she swung back and forth. The lawyer
representing Zao's family had this theory. Adam had hit her
(18:44):
over the head with a blunt object, rendering her semi
or fully unconscious, molested her, and then Hogg tied her
with the bright red rope, carrying her over to the balcony,
cutting the part of the rope that connected hands and feet,
then threw her off the balcony, the rope instantly snapping
taut around the foot of the bed. In this version,
Adam knows full well what he'll find when he emerges
(19:06):
from the guest house in the morning. He takes his
sweet time cutting her down, and she lands with a
stiff thud. He stands over her and starts getting into
character for the call he has to place to nine
one one. The fifth Mystery the call to nine one one.
The call Adam Shackney makes to nine one one is unnerving,
and not just because he is audibly distraught. He tells
(19:28):
the dispatcher that he's got a girl who hung herself,
but when asked for the address, draws a blank twice,
giving the dispatcher the wrong address before telling her he'll
have to call her back. When he finally manages to
give the dispatcher the right address of his own brother's
home and the place he's been staying, he seems unable
to come up with the most basic details of who
(19:49):
the dead woman is. Telling the dispatcher quote, she came
yesterday to pick up a little boy. Caitlin Crother finds
other things Adam did that morning also a little unerving.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
He had woken up six point fifteen, said he felt
some nervous energy, so he pleasured himself while looking at
porn on his cell phone, and then took a shower,
so no DNA in his hands, supposedly right, and then
took her down, left the knife on the grass. They
(20:21):
found none of his DNA on the knife that he
said he used to cut her down. Okay, none of
his DNA anywhere. He also admits that he took ambient
and I don't know if you've ever taken ambient, but
I have, and it does make you kind of confused.
In fact, there's this whole defense that some people have
used if they've done things when they've taken ambient that
(20:42):
they don't remember. It leaves you in this weird dream
like state.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Let's examine the sixth mystery, the missing voicemail. The day
prior to her death, Rebecca picked up Adam at the airport.
She then ate dinner with the two brothers before returning
to the mansion with Adam. Jonah returned to his vigil
at Max's bedside. Someone had called Rebecca just hours before
her death and left a message, a voicemail that was
(21:09):
never recovered, but that many felt had been left by
Jonah Shacknay at his dying son's bedside in the hospital,
and that he was calling to inform Rebecca about his
son's grim prognosis. I asked Caitlin about the missing voicemail.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
When I asked Jonah about it, Jonah said that, and
he told the Sheriff's department the same thing, that he
called to leave her a message saying that they had
talked to the doctor and the best prognosis for Max
was that he would never walk or talk again. And
what he told me was he wished he had not
(21:46):
left that message because she didn't call back, and she
always called him back, and so he was worried about her.
Her family say, well, there's no proof what he said,
because the message was deleted and was never recovered. Either
the Sheriff's department waited too long to try to recover
(22:08):
it from the provider, or they were very angry about that,
and there's no way to prove what that message said.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Could this have finally broken her mentally. After all, Jonah,
who she was in love with, had entrusted Max to her.
The worst possible thing had happened, and she would have
felt that he would always hold her responsible. Any reasonable
adult would have felt despondent at that moment, knowing that
a child under their care would never walk or talk again.
(22:36):
Or was Adam shack Ny, the younger devoted brother, so
enraged after seeing six year old Max in critical condition
that he was gripped by need for revenge? Did he
wait until Rebecca fell asleep that night? Then bludging her unconscious,
bind her gagger and throw her over the balcony. We'll
be back after a short break, were back with murder arms.
(23:04):
In twenty eighteen, a stunning verdict was announced. The civil
jury had decided nine to three that Adam Shaknai had
battered Rebecca with the intent to harm, but then, in
another twist, the judgment was thrown out a year later
as a settlement was reached with Adam Shackni's insurance company.
It seems the insurance company had grown tired of paying
(23:24):
the mounting cost of his legal bills, and it hoped
that a figure of ten million might satisfy the family.
Despite the settlement, closure for Rebecca Zoo has remained elusive.
To add further insult, the Sheriff's department ruled in twenty
eighteen for a second time that Zao had committed suicide.
Sheriff Gore said there is no evidence that Rebecca Zaoo
(23:46):
died at the hands of another leaning toward a cluster
of microphones in a podium. He then told reporters that
all of the evidence pointed to the one logical conclusion,
and that was suicide. Rebecca's family attorney, Keith Greer had
something to say about that finding. He called the Sheriff's
review incompetent and said that his team quote gave the
(24:07):
same stupid answers that a civil jury rejected. Adam Shackni
had his own tourist statement. He said there is no
evidence to support an outcome that had anything to do
with Rebecca Zoo's death. Twelve years after Rebecca Zoo was
found hanging from the balcony at Spreckel's mansion, her cause
of death is as hotly debated as ever. The Zoo
(24:29):
family continues to try to clear her name, as does
Adam Shackni, who says his reputation has been ruined. Crother
says that her book continues to be a best seller
at the Caronada bookstore, and she passes by one oh
four to three Ocean Boulevard whenever she is in the area.
But she says it bears no resemblance to the place
it once was.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
So they basically planted a bunch of palm trees out
in front, you know, try to make it less vulnerable looking.
Maybe they did all kinds of landscaping. I thought it
looked pretty nice. The next owner came in, ripped all
that out again, did a bunch of interior remodeling, and
then another person bought it during the lockdown and now
looks completely different. It looks like a house out of Miami.
(25:12):
It doesn't look anything like it used to. So talking
about a stigmatized house, this definitely was one.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
You're going to understand a new owner's desire to renovate
a murder home until every room looks brand new. But
the fact remains that Rebecca Zoo keeps calling us back
inside to the bedroom where someone painted the message on
the door. She invites us back into that bedroom to
see the bright red rope to imagine the knots that
were meticulously tightened around her wrist before she ran towards
(25:41):
the railing of the balcony or was pushed early that morning.
Her suicide or murder was so elaborately staged that it
ensured one thing, it will most likely never be forgotten.
Toward the end of my interview with Caitlin, she offered
another anecdote about Zoo that has nagged at me. It's
vital to what happened at one O four to three
(26:02):
Ocean Boulevard because one of the most sensitive questions about
this case is whether Rebecca was mentally ill. It turned
out when she was married she had another boyfriend before Jonah.
When she suddenly decided to end things, she did so
in a very disturbing way.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
She was never diagnosed with any mental illness, but the
Sheriff's department. Part of the reason they said that they
ruled it a suicide were these notes on her phone,
which were written sort of as a journal entry. They
looked more like letters that you would write to yourself.
This is actually a psychological therapeutic technique to kind of
(26:39):
work through your own issues. Anyway. One of them was
apparently to Jonah, and she was angry at him, and
there was another one, maybe the same one. But she
was depressed. She was crying, she couldn't sleep. So that's
what they cited when they said that they thought she
killed herself. But there's another story which also contributed to
(27:02):
her state of mind. She was with this man who
I interviewed also for the book, and he thought they
were boyfriend and girlfriend. She was living with him for
a time. She said she was going through a divorce
from her husband, when in fact, nobody had filed any paperwork,
so she basically disappeared, didn't come home from work one day,
(27:27):
and he reported her missing to the Glendale Police Department,
and she kept calling him and saying, they've got me.
They've got me blindfolded. They're driving me around in the
back of a car. I don't know where I am.
It sounded like she was in a bathroom. He's like,
where are you and she said, well, I'm using the bathroom.
They let me go to the bathroom. So basically she
(27:47):
said she had to go back to her husband. And
when she came back to see Michael briefly a couple
days later, he says, we need to go to the police,
and she says, I don't want to go to the police,
but they go to the police. They go to the
police station, she talks to the detectives by herself. They
come back and she's smiling. Everything's fine. He goes, Okay,
is it my turn?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Now?
Speaker 3 (28:08):
I have some things I want to say, and they said, no,
it's fine, you can go. Well, it turns out she
told them that she was breaking up with him, but
she hadn't told him yet, and so this is her
way of breaking up with him by saying she was kidnapped.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
It's easy to see Rebecca in those moments as someone
with a screw loose, a vulnerable soul who could seem
highly imbalanced when she felt stressed about something. But just
as I begin shifting my opinions slightly, begin to see
her slipping one arm out of the knot she is
tied in front of her, then holding her wrists behind
her back and slipping the arm in again. I think
of Adam Shacknay and his short fuse the garbled nine
(28:47):
one one call the precise attention one would need to
pay to the elaborate knots that bound her the absence
of a previous suicide attempt, the deeply flawed police investigation,
and I wave can you save her? It's a question
that's still relevant because whoever wrote those words is certain
(29:08):
of one thing. That Rebecca's death has changed nothing. She's
still waiting for an answer. In June twenty thirteen, Jonah
Shacknai put the mansion where Rebecca died on the market,
finally selling it for nine million, far less than the
asking price. This is Murder Holmes. I'm Matt mrin Ivitch.
(29:44):
Murder Holmes is created by an executive producer by Matt Mrinovich.
Executive producers are Jennifer Bassett and Taylor Chakogne. Story editor
is Jennifer Bassett. Supervising producer is Carl Katl. Producer is
Evan Tyr. Sound design by taylos Chicoine, Evan Tyre and
Carl Catl. Special thanks to Ali Perry and Nicietour. Murder
(30:10):
Holmes is a production of iHeart Podcasts. For more shows
from iHeart Podcasts, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Murder Homes is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
See what You're reporting A girl Hunger? It's an old
across from.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
The hotel play that you the today.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Okay, so what is the end there? On July thirteenth,
twenty eleven, it seemed like any summer morning in Coronado, California.
Waiters swept crumbs off the white tablecloths at the Grand
Victorian Hotel del Coronado and refreshed tourist coffee cups. Surfers
paddled into the first pale blue swells of the day,
(00:51):
and the first batches of sun Bayth's wandered down to
the beach, umbrellas and coolers in hand. But that early
morning tranquility was soon broken by the clattering sound of
a police helicopter hovering over a sprawling mansion that overlooked
the ocean. Soon three other news helicopters joined in the
cloudless blue sky, their cameras trained on the nude body
(01:13):
of a young woman lying in the courtyard below, her
wrists still bound with bright red polypropylene rope. The young
woman who was found in the courtyard was named Rebecca Zow,
a Burmese American immigrant who was thirty two years old.
She had been found hanging from a wrought iron balcony
at the mansion, where she'd been staying by herself the
previous night, except for one other person who was sleeping
(01:36):
in the guest home. His name was Adam Shacknai and
he was the brother of Rebecca's boyfriend, Jonah. Adam had
flown in the day before because of a family emergency.
Jonah's son Max had fallen from the second floor staircase
of the mansion and critically injured himself. Rebecca had picked
Adam up at the airport because Jonah had been keeping
(01:56):
vigil by his son's bedside in the hospital. The Grand Home,
known as Spreckel's Mansion for the sugar company tycoon who
had commissioned it, is a ten bedroom mansion that boasts
one of the best locations in San Diego County. Directly
across the street from the beach, the historic home offers
glorious views of the Pacific Ocean. Boasting high wood beam ceilings,
(02:17):
wrought iron balconies, and red tail roofing, the ten thy,
five hundred square foot mansion is considered one of the
architectural jewels of Karnada. Now it is known as the
location of Rebecca Zoo's mysterious death. This is Murder Holmes.
I'm Matt Murdovitch. According to Rebecca's autopsy report, her ankles
(02:49):
had been bound and her arms tied behind her back.
A black T shirt used to gag her mouth. The
death had been ruled a suicide. The moment the medical
examiner made is the term nation. He set off a
controversy that has continued to divide the Coronado community to
this day. Authorities believe they had a credible motive for
(03:10):
self harm. Rebecca was distraught after Max, who she was
caring for, had critically injured himself. Though she had told
police she had tried to perform CPR and the critically
injured boy, his condition was worsening. At the time of
her death. Her boyfriend and the boy's father, Jonah Shackni,
was in a state of shock. He had not returned
to the mansion the night before Rebecca was found hanging.
(03:33):
Only two people occupied the sprawling home that final night,
Adam Shackney and Rebecca. Just before she is said to
have killed herself, Zao had illigedly written the following words
in black paint on the bedroom door that she had
been using as her art studio inside the home. This
is what it said. She saved him, Can he save her?
(03:56):
The medical examiner said she had gagged herself, tied a
rope around the bed, wrapped the other end of it
around her neck, bound her feet and hands, and threw
herself off the second floor balcony. Adam Shakni had found
her early in the morning of the thirteenth, hanging from
the balcony in the rear courtyard. He was going to
fetch an early morning cup of coffee when he saw
her suspended, lifeless, and then he told the police he
(04:19):
cut her down. At the time of her death, Zio's boyfriend,
Jonah Shakni, was CEO of Medicis Pharmaceuticals, a medical cosmetic
company that was worth two point six billion dollars. Jonah
had purchased Spreckl's mansion in two thousand and seven. Rebecca
and Jonah had met in two thousand and eight, when
she was still married and working as an ophthalmic technician.
(04:42):
She got along well with his son Max, to the
point where the boy's mother became a little jealous. In
terms of her past there was one notable event that
occurred a year after she had met Jonah. She had
shoplifted one thousand dollars worth of jewelry from Macy's in Phoenix, Arizona.
It was strange because she was a year into a
earlytionship with a man who was the ninth wealthiest CEO
in the state. I spoke to Caitlin Crowther, author of
(05:06):
Death on Ocean Boulevard, the New York Times best selling
book about the Rebecca's out case. A native of San Diego,
Caitlyn's interest was immediately piqued by the mysterious death. Here's
what Caitlyn told me.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
I think one thing is that pretty much everyone that
comes up to me says she was definitely murdered. Nobody
wants to believe that a woman would do this to herself.
That's what I hear primarily over and over again. A
woman would never do this to herself.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Caitlyn spoke to Jonah shack Night, Rebecca's boyfriend, a number
of times as research for her book. She said that
her interviews with him left her with more questions than answers.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Jonah I interviewed eight times on Skype for an hour
and a half two hours each time, and that was
right before I was about to turn the book in,
so I had to go back in and rewrite a
bunch of stuff, change a bunch of stuff. But it
was great because he was her boyfriend and he knew
her really well, and what he told me basically showed
that she was not the person that her family really
(06:10):
thought she was. That's what she showed them, But she
had other parts to her that she showed other people.
She told different stories to different people about the same
thing that happened, but everybody got a different version. He
says now that he thinks that she killed herself, but
initially he was more concerned that somebody might be after
(06:32):
him because he didn't think she would have done this
to him the way that she did it, because it
would have brought such embarrassment to him, and it was
causing his stock to fall because he looked like he
was a suspect, and he actually asked the Sheriff's department,
can't you publicly declare that I'm not a suspect, which
is what caused people to believe that he was asking
(06:55):
for special treatment and that the Sheriff's department gave him
special treatment, and that's where us case really took off.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
We'll be back after a short break. We're back with
murder Hums. After the medical examiner ruled Zao's death suicide,
authorities considered the case closed. But if they hoped this
would make it go away, they were mistaken. From the
moment TV helicopters had hovered over Spreckel's mansion, filming her
(07:25):
nude body on the grass. The case became a favorite
of true crime buffs and internet sluice. The Zoo family,
who always felt their daughter was murdered, were also infuriated,
and they finally got their day in court. Although it
was a civil trial, they were still finally able to
face the man who they believed in murdered Rebecca and
cold blood Adam Shacknei Jonah Shacknai's beloved brother. Even the sheriff,
(07:50):
Bill Gore, admitted that he understood the public's skepticism about
what had happened at Spreckel's mansion. It's an unusual case,
he said. It lends itself to conspiracy theories. There were
many areas of concern, but these were quickly distilled into
the six biggest mysteries about Rebecca's death. Just like the
knots found on Rebecca's body, they tended to tighten as
(08:11):
more and more experts pulled on them in an effort
to untangle fact from fiction. The first mystery is how
had Rebecca managed to tie her arms behind her own
back before leaping to her death. I asked Caitlin what
she knew.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
About this, So there's a lot to do with the
knots during the trial, and also what Adam told me
in an interview on the witness stand. He said, you know, yes,
I'm a talk about captain, but I don't know how
to tie these knots. And he told me afterwards he
was upset with his attorneys because he felt like they
(08:46):
were complicated knots when the attorneys tried to make it
sound very simple, like a bird or a monkey could
tie these knots. And so Adam basically said, you know,
I have to take these tests, but I don't know
how to tie these knots. And in fact, I did
some research and I think that there this Japanese erotic
bondage art form. And so my question is who in
(09:14):
this case knows about bondage because it's a weird way
to be tied up. I mean, if she did it
to herself, where would she get that idea. There's nothing
on her computer that showed she ever did any research
into this. I asked Jonah Shacknai straight out, did you
guys have this in your relationship? He says, not with me,
(09:37):
So that's one of the mysteries. But when we were
in trial, this is a house expert did this super
complicated series of knots and said, this is how I
think they were done. I have examined the knots because
they saved them. They pulled them off her body and
put them on cardboard tubes, and the Sheriff's department also
did a video to show that this is how it
(09:58):
could have been done. He said, whatever the sheriff did
was a much more simplified version of what was actually
on her body.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Caitlin's mention of the possibility that the knots found on
Rebecca's wrists and ankles might have been tied to a
Japanese bondage form got me thinking what if it were,
and who might I ask? I decided I had to
talk to someone who knew a lot about knots and
a rope play in Japanese bondage, or more specifically, a
type of rope play in the BDSM community called shabari.
(10:29):
Shabari is the act of restricting the mobility of the
human body with the help of thin ropes. These thin
ropes are known as asanawa. I connected with one of
the most renowned practitioners of shabari, a Russian named Maxim Kalahari,
whose invite only bondage workshops in far flung exotic locales
that goa have become infamous. He spoke to me from
(10:51):
Indonesia with his girlfriend translating so with Rebecca Zau. Did
you get a chance to look at the photographs?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yes, yes, yes, I see.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Is it possible that that kind of knot would be
used in road play or b d s m as.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
He said that for sure this not is done not
by professional.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
That's very interesting. Is it something that's ever used in
road play or bondage the corregion Mochi.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yo us He says that this not looks like the
not that could be done by a person who do
it first time or done not often, so it's not
professional one.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
But to go back to the question in the community,
I'm going to say road play is part of maybe
B D S M. Right. Have you ever seen it
use like a clove hitch, not as far as with
shabari or role play.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
No, no, it's not sabari. In Sabari we always tart
time double ropes. We don't time single ropes. The person
who has done this do it very quickly.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
He was in hurry or the model if resistance it
was like a role play, she played like she wanted
to escape or not without He can think about three
reasons on he never do this before, or he was
(12:40):
in hurry, very in hurry, or she did some resistance
without any knowledge about how to do and practice his
things that it's impossible to do herself. Behind that, the.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Highly staged nature of the alleged suicide, the intricate binding
of wrist ankles, the gag in the mouth, the nudity,
it did seem beyond the capability of a highly distraught,
suicidal person. Seven years later, at a civil trial, Rebecca
Zo's family finally had the feeling that there might be
some closure. The jury listened as Rebecca's family lawyer walked
(13:21):
them through the final hour, again sketching out what he
had believed happened. Handwriting expert was brought to the stand
to testify that the message painted on the door fit
Shacknai's handwriting pattern. A knot tying expert was brought into
the courtroom to demonstrate that the knots were most likely
tied by someone other than Zau. He leaned over a
mannekin draped with a white sheet, and jurors watched him
(13:44):
retie the same knots that had bound Rebecca. He tightened
the rope and figure eights and explained the clove hitch
and overhand knots. Adam Shakni, the lawyer, pointed out, was
well versed in the use of knots, of which the
clove hitch was one. He was a tugboat captain on
the Mississippi River. Adam Shackni's lawyer countered that his client's
(14:06):
DNA had never been found on the rope, not one
strand of it. Is it conceivable that it might have
been wiped down, or, as Caitlin Rother suggested when we spoke,
that someone could have used gloves. Sure, that was a
theoretical possibility, but nothing else connected him to the bedroom
where Rebecca had spent her last moments. A sheriff's investigator
would later demonstrate how Rebecca could slip one hand out,
(14:29):
hold both hands behind her back, slip her loose hand
back into the knot, and tighten it, which brings us
to the second mystery of the Zou case. The seven
words Rebecca had allegedly painted on the bedroom door she
saved him? Can you save her? The plaintiff's lawyer contended
that they had been left by Adam Shacknin after the
(14:49):
handwriting analyst left the stand. Adam Shackni's lawyer countered that
a murderer wouldn't want to draw attention to himself by
leaving a message on the wall. He told the jury
that the cryptic message would have been left by Rebecca,
who was not in a rational state of mind. The
message itself, to me is tantalizing. It both makes sense
and doesn't. She saved him contradicts what actually happen. Considering
(15:14):
that Rebecca had told Jonah she was in the bathroom
at the moment Max had fallen from the second floor staircase,
can you say of her? Is even more mysterious. Is
she talking about Max or Jonah or someone else? Or
is this really Adam's handwriting trying to throw police off
his track. Adam Shacknay, the younger, devoted brother, would have
(15:34):
felt enraged too after seeing his nephew, six year old Max,
in critical condition at the hospital. Would he have felt
so overwhelmed with anger that he waited until Rebecca fell
asleep that night? Could he have bludgeoned her unconscious, bound her,
gagged her, and thrown her over the balcony, watching her
swing just a few feef in the lush manicured grass,
her toenails painted a glossy red. What did the seven
(15:58):
words painted in black on the door? She saved him?
Can he save her?
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Mean?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And is it conceivable that someone besides Rebecca had left
them there? Here's what Caitlyn told me.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Nobody is willing to say what that message really means
because nobody really knows. But she came from a religious family,
she had a religious upbringing. You can you save her?
Could be God? I heard one theory that she was
angry with Jonah, which is reflected in the note as
I mentioned, and that maybe this was a message to
(16:30):
him what she did to herself. If it was a suicide,
that she was angry at him, and wanted to embarrass him. So,
I mean you, I don't know if you use Jonah,
is you God? Is you the killer? I mean, who
is it? We don't know who it is. But the
fact of the matter is is a very strange message.
The strokes with the paint look pretty angry. There have
(16:53):
been other people who are staging scene experts who say
the whole scene was angry. She was placed in this
demeaning position with her hands tied behind her, her ankles bound.
The house attorney also suggested that she may have been
hogtied previously. Yes, the lividity of her body and the
(17:15):
way the blood is positioned only on one side of
the body and not in her feet where it should
have been when she was hanging. There's so many things
with this. The fact that she wasn't decapitated. If she
really fell with that force nine feet jumping off, why
wasn't she decapitated from the force of it. Why did
she only have these minor injuries with the cartilage's very
(17:37):
similar injuries by the way with Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And then there's the third mystery, the latex glove and
menstrul blood found on a knife in the bedroom a
latex glove was found in a crawl space under the
guest house where Adam was staying. Was this evidence that
Adam had used the glove to hide his fingerprints. The
defense stressed that there were no visible signs that the
latex glove may cometac with any surface. At one of
(18:01):
fourth Reocean Boulevard, including the bedroom where Zoo spent her
final moments, the zal family attorney said that a knife
had been found in Rebecca's bedroom with menstrual blood on
the handle. He said that this was evidence that it
was inserted into her body in a sexual assault. The
medical Examiner's office found no evidence of a sexual assault.
(18:22):
The fourth mystery is Rebecca's blunt force injuries. Four blunt
force injuries were found on Rebecca's head in the autopsy.
The prosecution maintained these wounds were caused after Rebecca jumped
off the balcony and subsequently hid her head on the
balcony floor as she swung back and forth. The lawyer
representing Zao's family had this theory. Adam had hit her
(18:44):
over the head with a blunt object, rendering her semi
or fully unconscious, molested her, and then Hogg tied her
with the bright red rope, carrying her over to the balcony,
cutting the part of the rope that connected hands and feet,
then threw her off the balcony, the rope instantly snapping
taut around the foot of the bed. In this version,
Adam knows full well what he'll find when he emerges
(19:06):
from the guest house in the morning. He takes his
sweet time cutting her down, and she lands with a
stiff thud. He stands over her and starts getting into
character for the call he has to place to nine
one one. The fifth Mystery the call to nine one one.
The call Adam Shackney makes to nine one one is unnerving,
and not just because he is audibly distraught. He tells
(19:28):
the dispatcher that he's got a girl who hung herself,
but when asked for the address, draws a blank twice,
giving the dispatcher the wrong address before telling her he'll
have to call her back. When he finally manages to
give the dispatcher the right address of his own brother's
home and the place he's been staying, he seems unable
to come up with the most basic details of who
(19:49):
the dead woman is. Telling the dispatcher quote, she came
yesterday to pick up a little boy. Caitlin Crother finds
other things Adam did that morning also a little unerving.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
He had woken up six point fifteen, said he felt
some nervous energy, so he pleasured himself while looking at
porn on his cell phone, and then took a shower,
so no DNA in his hands, supposedly right, and then
took her down, left the knife on the grass. They
(20:21):
found none of his DNA on the knife that he
said he used to cut her down. Okay, none of
his DNA anywhere. He also admits that he took ambient
and I don't know if you've ever taken ambient, but
I have, and it does make you kind of confused.
In fact, there's this whole defense that some people have
used if they've done things when they've taken ambient that
(20:42):
they don't remember. It leaves you in this weird dream
like state.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Let's examine the sixth mystery, the missing voicemail. The day
prior to her death, Rebecca picked up Adam at the airport.
She then ate dinner with the two brothers before returning
to the mansion with Adam. Jonah returned to his vigil
at Max's bedside. Someone had called Rebecca just hours before
her death and left a message, a voicemail that was
(21:09):
never recovered, but that many felt had been left by
Jonah Shacknay at his dying son's bedside in the hospital,
and that he was calling to inform Rebecca about his
son's grim prognosis. I asked Caitlin about the missing voicemail.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
When I asked Jonah about it, Jonah said that, and
he told the Sheriff's department the same thing, that he
called to leave her a message saying that they had
talked to the doctor and the best prognosis for Max
was that he would never walk or talk again. And
what he told me was he wished he had not
(21:46):
left that message because she didn't call back, and she
always called him back, and so he was worried about her.
Her family say, well, there's no proof what he said,
because the message was deleted and was never recovered. Either
the Sheriff's department waited too long to try to recover
(22:08):
it from the provider, or they were very angry about that,
and there's no way to prove what that message said.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Could this have finally broken her mentally. After all, Jonah,
who she was in love with, had entrusted Max to her.
The worst possible thing had happened, and she would have
felt that he would always hold her responsible. Any reasonable
adult would have felt despondent at that moment, knowing that
a child under their care would never walk or talk again.
(22:36):
Or was Adam shack Ny, the younger devoted brother, so
enraged after seeing six year old Max in critical condition
that he was gripped by need for revenge? Did he
wait until Rebecca fell asleep that night? Then bludging her unconscious,
bind her gagger and throw her over the balcony. We'll
be back after a short break, were back with murder arms.
(23:04):
In twenty eighteen, a stunning verdict was announced. The civil
jury had decided nine to three that Adam Shaknai had
battered Rebecca with the intent to harm, but then, in
another twist, the judgment was thrown out a year later
as a settlement was reached with Adam Shackni's insurance company.
It seems the insurance company had grown tired of paying
(23:24):
the mounting cost of his legal bills, and it hoped
that a figure of ten million might satisfy the family.
Despite the settlement, closure for Rebecca Zoo has remained elusive.
To add further insult, the Sheriff's department ruled in twenty
eighteen for a second time that Zao had committed suicide.
Sheriff Gore said there is no evidence that Rebecca Zaoo
(23:46):
died at the hands of another leaning toward a cluster
of microphones in a podium. He then told reporters that
all of the evidence pointed to the one logical conclusion,
and that was suicide. Rebecca's family attorney, Keith Greer had
something to say about that finding. He called the Sheriff's
review incompetent and said that his team quote gave the
(24:07):
same stupid answers that a civil jury rejected. Adam Shackni
had his own tourist statement. He said there is no
evidence to support an outcome that had anything to do
with Rebecca Zoo's death. Twelve years after Rebecca Zoo was
found hanging from the balcony at Spreckel's mansion, her cause
of death is as hotly debated as ever. The Zoo
(24:29):
family continues to try to clear her name, as does
Adam Shackni, who says his reputation has been ruined. Crother
says that her book continues to be a best seller
at the Caronada bookstore, and she passes by one oh
four to three Ocean Boulevard whenever she is in the area.
But she says it bears no resemblance to the place
it once was.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
So they basically planted a bunch of palm trees out
in front, you know, try to make it less vulnerable looking.
Maybe they did all kinds of landscaping. I thought it
looked pretty nice. The next owner came in, ripped all
that out again, did a bunch of interior remodeling, and
then another person bought it during the lockdown and now
looks completely different. It looks like a house out of Miami.
(25:12):
It doesn't look anything like it used to. So talking
about a stigmatized house, this definitely was one.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
You're going to understand a new owner's desire to renovate
a murder home until every room looks brand new. But
the fact remains that Rebecca Zoo keeps calling us back
inside to the bedroom where someone painted the message on
the door. She invites us back into that bedroom to
see the bright red rope to imagine the knots that
were meticulously tightened around her wrist before she ran towards
(25:41):
the railing of the balcony or was pushed early that morning.
Her suicide or murder was so elaborately staged that it
ensured one thing, it will most likely never be forgotten.
Toward the end of my interview with Caitlin, she offered
another anecdote about Zoo that has nagged at me. It's
vital to what happened at one O four to three
(26:02):
Ocean Boulevard because one of the most sensitive questions about
this case is whether Rebecca was mentally ill. It turned
out when she was married she had another boyfriend before Jonah.
When she suddenly decided to end things, she did so
in a very disturbing way.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
She was never diagnosed with any mental illness, but the
Sheriff's department. Part of the reason they said that they
ruled it a suicide were these notes on her phone,
which were written sort of as a journal entry. They
looked more like letters that you would write to yourself.
This is actually a psychological therapeutic technique to kind of
(26:39):
work through your own issues. Anyway. One of them was
apparently to Jonah, and she was angry at him, and
there was another one, maybe the same one. But she
was depressed. She was crying, she couldn't sleep. So that's
what they cited when they said that they thought she
killed herself. But there's another story which also contributed to
(27:02):
her state of mind. She was with this man who
I interviewed also for the book, and he thought they
were boyfriend and girlfriend. She was living with him for
a time. She said she was going through a divorce
from her husband, when in fact, nobody had filed any paperwork,
so she basically disappeared, didn't come home from work one day,
(27:27):
and he reported her missing to the Glendale Police Department,
and she kept calling him and saying, they've got me.
They've got me blindfolded. They're driving me around in the
back of a car. I don't know where I am.
It sounded like she was in a bathroom. He's like,
where are you and she said, well, I'm using the bathroom.
They let me go to the bathroom. So basically she
(27:47):
said she had to go back to her husband. And
when she came back to see Michael briefly a couple
days later, he says, we need to go to the police,
and she says, I don't want to go to the police,
but they go to the police. They go to the
police station, she talks to the detectives by herself. They
come back and she's smiling. Everything's fine. He goes, Okay,
is it my turn?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Now?
Speaker 3 (28:08):
I have some things I want to say, and they said, no,
it's fine, you can go. Well, it turns out she
told them that she was breaking up with him, but
she hadn't told him yet, and so this is her
way of breaking up with him by saying she was kidnapped.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
It's easy to see Rebecca in those moments as someone
with a screw loose, a vulnerable soul who could seem
highly imbalanced when she felt stressed about something. But just
as I begin shifting my opinions slightly, begin to see
her slipping one arm out of the knot she is
tied in front of her, then holding her wrists behind
her back and slipping the arm in again. I think
of Adam Shacknay and his short fuse the garbled nine
(28:47):
one one call the precise attention one would need to
pay to the elaborate knots that bound her the absence
of a previous suicide attempt, the deeply flawed police investigation,
and I wave can you save her? It's a question
that's still relevant because whoever wrote those words is certain
(29:08):
of one thing. That Rebecca's death has changed nothing. She's
still waiting for an answer. In June twenty thirteen, Jonah
Shacknai put the mansion where Rebecca died on the market,
finally selling it for nine million, far less than the
asking price. This is Murder Holmes. I'm Matt mrin Ivitch.
(29:44):
Murder Holmes is created by an executive producer by Matt Mrinovich.
Executive producers are Jennifer Bassett and Taylor Chakogne. Story editor
is Jennifer Bassett. Supervising producer is Carl Katl. Producer is
Evan Tyr. Sound design by taylos Chicoine, Evan Tyre and
Carl Catl. Special thanks to Ali Perry and Nicietour. Murder
(30:10):
Holmes is a production of iHeart Podcasts. For more shows
from iHeart Podcasts, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Matt Marinovich
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