May 27, 2024 • 50 mins
In 2009, Michelle Morrison was convicted on a felony murder charge along with aggravated assault, criminal attempt to commit armed robbery, and conspiracy over a 2007 shooting that left a man dead. Not only did Michelle not fire the weapon that took the man’s life, but she never even set foot in the house where the shooting occurred. In fact, she didn’t even get out of the car. And yet, Michelle Morrison, at the age of 26, was sentenced to life in prison plus five years.
She is joined by her mother, Cynthia Holland, who has fought fiercely for her daughter’s release. Cynthia truly moved mountains to get her daughter out of prison, and in the process brought about real reform in the Georgia justice system.
Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have
been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,
even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like
to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it
like to be their ally, the one outside committed to
fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this
(00:26):
is wrongful conviction. Welcome to wrongful conviction. In two thousand
and nine, Michelle Morrison was convicted on a felony murder
charge along with aggravated assault, criminal attempt to commit armed robbery,
and conspiracy over a two thousand and seven shooting that
(00:49):
left a man dead. Now, what if I told you
that not only did Michelle not fire the weapon that
took the man's life, but she never even set foot
in the house where the shoe occurred. In fact, she
didn't even get out of the car. And yet Michelle Morrison,
at the age of twenty six, was sentenced to life
in prison plus five years. Her mother, Cynthia Holland, has
(01:13):
fought fiercely for her daughter's release, which finally occurred in
August of twenty twenty two, but only after Michelle spent
nearly thirteen years behind bars for a murder she did
not commit. Cynthia truly moved mountains to get her daughter
out of prison and in the process brought about real
reform in the Georgia justice system. And we'll get into
(01:38):
exactly how she went about that, but first, Michelle Morrison
and Cynthia Holland, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you, Lauren Hi,
thank you for having us wonderful listen. Before we get
into the event that left you in prison for thirteen years,
I just want to find out a little bit more
(01:58):
about you, Missae, as a person, your upbringing, where you
grew up, what kind of a child you were, and
your mom's here to keep you on us.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Well.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I grew up in Atlanta. My mom and dad were
married till I was five. I had a lot of energy.
I was more like a tomboy. I loved to hang
out with my uncle Joey. That was like my big brother.
I would ride a scooter, be in the trees, be everywhere.
I just I was real active. I had a lot
of energy.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
In school, I was a happy kid.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
What made you happy? What was your favorite music? What
were your favorite things to do.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Ooh, my favorite music Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson, and my
favorite thing. When I became I was like, how old
was I when I was in Girl Scouts? I think
I was in the fourth or fifth grade. But that
was my favorite thing. My mom was the leader and
I got to do everything. It was like I was
(02:56):
the mini leader because she was in charge. So I
had We went to the zoo to spend the night.
We went, we had sleepovers. It was fun selling cookies. Yeah,
that was really fun.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I'm a Samoa girl and nuts.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
So by your teens, from being a Girl Scout, you
kind of took a bit of a different path and
some of the decisions that you were making at the
time might have put you at odds with your mom.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Well, the area that we was in, I really didn't
care for my school.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I just didn't like my school. It wasn't really productive.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I had friends that went to some of the better schools,
but I couldn't go there first because I didn't stay
in the area. I didn't have the address, and then
my mom couldn't take me there because it was far.
So I kind of just didn't like school at all.
I'd be the person that to get finished with my
work and disrupt everybody in class then get in trouble.
I started kind of like falling back from school till
(03:54):
eventually I dropped out of school and I started hanging
out with some kids that one of the best kids
in the world, but you know, I started hanging out
with them because I thought they were cool.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Was that difficult for you, Cynthia, I mean, having been
the girls Scout leader to kind of having a rebellious
daughter on your hands.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yeah, needless to say, it was. But I had two daughters,
and it's amazing how you can have two children and
they can grow up exactly the same and then go
in different directions. So on one hand, I had one daughter
that was doing everything in school and loved school, and
the other hand, another daughter that was rebelling and was
(04:38):
just kind of going through that teenage stuff. A lot
of it was because we didn't have a lot of
the resources back then to help. When you're being a
single parent trying to raise two children, trying to work
and everything, it was tough. It was tough.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
What was the age difference? The age difference between you
and your sister.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Michelle years she's older than me.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
You know, sometimes it's it's easier to go the opposite
direction of an older sibling, particularly if they're hitting all
the high notes. It's a little easier to not follow
in their steps sometimes. How old were you when your
parents got divorced.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I was five, and that took That took a toll
on me because I was a daddy's girl and we
were super close, super close. So when they did get divorced,
you know, I understand what was going on. He moved
to another state and I had to wait till summer
breaks or Christmas breaks to see him. So, yeah, they're
right there. You know, that hurt me real bad.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
You know, I wanted my dad.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So by the time you got your teens or obviously
have different priorities than your older sister and a bit
at odds with your mom. But what were your goals,
your thoughts about the future.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I wanted to I always wanted to work in a
medical field from when I was young. It went from
a brain surgeon to a heart surgeon, so when I
realized I'm not doing at at school, to a pediatrician.
Then it went to an rin and that was the
final thing that I was going to do, but I
ended up enrolling in the CAB tech for a licensed
(06:16):
practical nurse. I went almost a year and I couldn't
stay focused because I was dancing in the nightclubs and
I was so tired trying to go to work and
trying to go to college. And then when I got
to math, math has always been my hearty subject, and
it just was frustrating me.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I already couldn't focus. So I ended up dropping out
of the cap tick.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And so that takes us about to the time when
this unfolded. How was that time period in terms of
your relationship, Cynthia, were you guys strained before this happened.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
I was a little disappointed about the things that she
was doing. I even remember in my Bible study group
we were giving prayer request and I mentioned pray for
my daughter because she grew up in the church. She
was acculate, she loved the church, and now she's taken
another path. And I remember the pastor telling me, don't
(07:13):
get so down because you're feeling like you're a bad
mother and it's not because of that, and he tried
to encourage me, and I was able to release it,
and I begin to say, well, God, this is your child.
What are you going to do with her? I just prayed.
And my grandmother, who bless her so has gone on
to heaven. She would say, She'll probably be the one
(07:36):
to surprise you, because when she was young, she would
just do things and say things that were just amazing.
So I knew it was inside of her, and I
think that's why all of this adversity hit her like
it did, and she went through that to become who
she is now.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Absolutely, And in terms of that adversity before this incident,
had you had any substantial runnings with the law.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Well, I had got on probation and end up going
to juvenile for not going to school. As my I
guess my punishment, they sent me to a wilderness camp
where I had to go for I think it was
six weeks where I had to go stay out into
the woods and it was so horrible and I remember
(08:25):
getting beat up by jiggers.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Oh it was. It was terrible. It was terrible.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
And I told my mom, I said, oh, I'm not
I'm going to school. I'm not going to do this
no more. Like my mom was like okay, okay, okay.
I was like, I'm not gonna do it no more.
So that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Then, in retrospect, those bug bites probably didn't seem as
bad as what ended up happening. So take me to
the night of June eleventh, two thousand and seven when
all of this went down. Seems almost like a series
of bad decisions that snowballed.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Well.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
So, while I was dancing, I did abuse pills. I
had a pill habit. They make you hang around people
that you think are your friends, and really the whole
time they're not your friends. It's the worst thing ever
in the world. But I had a friend that I've
been knowing for years, and she sold drugs and she
(09:20):
had an escort service. We've been friends, probably before I
start dancing. We were friends and we were cool, like
she never owned the vehicle. I always give her rides
to places or let her borrow my car. On this
particular night, she asked me for a ride to pick
up some money that was old to her. She wanted
the two guys to go with her because the guy
(09:41):
was dodging her phone calls and he owed her money
and she needed her money.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
And I drove her there.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
She used my phone, acting like her phone was dead
the whole time. I drove my car with my driver
license plates retro to my name.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Everything is to my name.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I mean, if I was going to commit a crime,
I would never let her use my my phone and
traced me. I would have never drove my car to
register straight back to my house. But once again, when
you're on heavy pills, none of that matters. You're not
even really paying attention what's going on in the car.
You're just driving. So the two guys get out the
car and I guess they go in. Me and her
talking the whole time. After they've been out for a second,
(10:17):
one of the other guys came in and got in
a car, breathing hard, you know, saying I don't know
what happened. I don't know if my boy shot this
guy or the guy shot him. And I'm looking like,
what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Shot what?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
So he's had one foot in, one foot out. I'm
dropped about to drive off, and he's like, I can't
leave my boy. He get out the car. I ended
up leaving because I didn't even know the man was dead.
I didn't know nothing.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
How did you find that out? The next day?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
So when I was going to go pick up my
contacts from the eyeglass place. The GBI pulled me over
and said they wanted to talk to me.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So that's when you first realized that you were caught
up in all of us, that you were now part
of the investigation.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
It took me to the police station and they had
me and my friend up there for a few hours.
They impounded my car and they let us go.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
And when did you loop your mom that all of
this was unfolding.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Actually, I didn't find out for quite some time because
my father, who was living in Alabama, was killed in
a car accident on June seventh, two thousand and nine.
So I was preparing a funeral, driving back and forth
to Huntsville, trying to secure his belongings and stuff. So
I was wondering why when Michelle came to the funeral,
(11:37):
she didn't have a vehicle, and she just told me
that it was in the shop or something. I still
didn't know until they actually knocked on my door, the
GBI and said that they were looking for her about
a homicide, and my heart just fell out. And the
(12:02):
GBI can remember him, you know, he was very calm,
He was very nice about it. He didn't believe that
she was guilty of it, he assured me, because I
was like in tears. He said, if you know where
she is, just tell her to turn herself in. And
I immediately called her, and that's what we did. I said,
get it straightened out, but we're not gonna run or
(12:22):
disregard this.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
So you turned yourself in willingly.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
It was right after the incident, and I was like, yeah,
I'm gonna do the right thing. I don't have no
reason to run.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
What was that time period like for you, from the
time you got the knock on the door of Cynthia.
Did you think that it was just a formality and
you'd go in, get questioned and leave.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
No. I thought it was serious. Matter of fact, I
begin to make in preparations. I went to a bondsman
to try to prepare for bail. I got things set up.
They told me that with those types of charges that
it would probably be serious and a very high bail.
I mean, I was scrambling trying to make sure that
(13:25):
I could try to not let her go to that
awful jail. All the things I saw on TV and
going people going to jail and getting killed. I mean,
all kinds of things was running through my head.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
And so Michelle, what was going through your head when
you walked in to turn yourself in?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Well, I was so afraid. I was so afraid.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
And I sat there for about a week inside of
the county jail till I got my bond here, and
I was scared. I had the same perception of prison
that my mama did, Like I couldn't imagine my self
in there for five minutes, let alone thirteen years. So
I was nervous. But thankfully God had me with a
(14:10):
good bunkie because we were praying together and stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
How did the detectives treat you initially off the bat?
Did you have a lawyer when you were first interrogated?
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Nope, And I can honestly say the GBI were very,
very very nice to me. They were trying to help
me out, like they wanted me to help them. They
wanted my co defend. But I didn't know where she was.
She ran, she was on a run. I couldn't help
you find her because she was running for me too.
I don't know where she was.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
So yeah, I think there was even an America's Most
Wanted episode about her.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Yeah, it was, and when we went to court for
her bond hearing, I brought members from my church. We
had three rows of people that stood up for her,
and the judge ended up giving her a bond of
one thousand dollars cash. When I called back the bond's
company and said, sir, I don't need you. My daughter
just got one thousand dollar cash bond and I can
(15:05):
pay that, he said, lady, you're crazy. Nobody gets it.
I said, I'm telling you, that's what the judge says.
My daughter's walking out. And she walked for two years.
There was no evidence. The GBI said that they were
astonished that they she was even indicted because there was
no physical evidence against her.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
So those two years must have been kind of like
having raincloud following you because you're still not in the clearer.
And so when did the plea deal first come on
the table? What were you offered and who offered it?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
I was offered five years, and that came from the
DA at the time. I was offered five years to
turn state on the other two guys that were there.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
So I had two lawyers.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I had the lawyer that I hired that I kind
of knew, so I kind of trusted him more, and
then he hired on another lawyer as a partner. So
it was like I had doctor Jeko on Hide. The
lawyer I hired, he was like, we're gonna fight. You're
gonna win this.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
La la la la.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
The lawyer that I didn't hire, he was like, I
was a prosecutor before. Take no five years. We know
you didn't do nothing, but you was there at the
scene of the crime. This is Georgia. Their laws are crazy.
So I'm having these two people in my head at
this time, and I'm like, oh my god, I don't
know Georgia laws. I ain't never been no serious trouble
like this. So I'm like, I'm finna fight for my life.
That's all I seen, That's all I can see. I'm
(16:32):
finna fight.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Well, I can imagine if you got a thousand dollars bond,
you probably felt that roll the dice. You're innocent, you
didn't do it, So why would you take five years
and testify against people when you weren't at the scene
of the murder.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Well, I, like Michelle did not understand the system. I
wasn't clear when they said five years, would she be
saying five years to murder.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
And it seems like, Michelle, you were getting really conflicting
legal advice heading into that trial too.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I wasn't.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Also, I had just enrolled into Georgia Perimeter for the
summer course. I was going to start the RIN program,
So in my mind, I didn't know they was going
to drop my charge to a list of charge. They
did not explain the five years. I'm thinking, I'm still
gonna have this murder charge. I'm like, I ain't gonna
be getting to college with his murder charge. These are
the thoughts going in my head. So I'm like, I'm
trying to go back to school and do the right thing.
I'm like, oh god, oh no, no, no, no, So
(17:31):
I didn't I didn't understand it.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
But that said, by the time you're heading into trial,
you're making steps to get your life back into order
and take me to the trial. What did it feel
like sitting in that courtroom and how did you feel
things were going for you? Michelle?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Oh, well, I can remember. I remember bits and pieces
of it. Being so scared. I still was abusing appeals.
I wasn't really in my right mind. I just wanted
to be numb. I'm so scared. I really didn't want
to be there. So the whole time, I'm just listening
to the case, and I'm listening to all the evidence
against my co defendents, listening to their extensive criminal history,
(18:15):
and it felt weird, like I didn't belong there. I
just felt crazy the whole time.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And it's two years after any event happened, and so
it's April of twenty oh nine. Cynthia. Were you there
during the trials.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
I was there every day. Me and one of my
prayer partners sat there in the courtroom, listened to all
the testimony. And that's why it was so devastating, because
the testimony never really had anything solid, and you think
for somebody to get a life sentence, you would have
to have a little bit more concrete evidence. Plus there
were several times that I ran into the judge shopping
(18:56):
at the grocery store, and one time he was right
in front of me in the line and he says,
aren't you the mother of the girl that's on trial?
And I said, yes, tell her to take the plea deal.
Tell her to take the plea deal. And I got
nervous because I didn't think judges were supposed to talk
to you about that, and it really made me nervous
(19:16):
more now about the plea deal, and I was like,
are they trying to set us up? Or what I mean?
So many things kept going through my mind because I
was so unsure.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Wow, and he was giving you a heads up because
I don't even think that could have prepared you guys
for the verdict. So take me to the exact moment
that the verdict is delivered, Michelle.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Oh, well, they delivered my co defense verdict first, and.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I was like, oh god, they said guilty.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
So then when they came back to mine and said guilty,
I felt like I felt like I've been stabbed, and
it's just I was shocked. I didn't know what to do,
what to say, and the judge looked at me and
he was like, I tried to tell this young lady,
you know, he please file your appeals like you can
(20:10):
tell everybody felt so bad. I remember a lady in
the jury. She was crying. I guess they didn't realize.
I don't even know if the jury was told. I
was offered five years because they said it after I
got the verdict came down. I was offered five years
so yeah, I was in total shock and disbelief.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I I didn't even understand what was going on, total disbelief.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Were you sentenced right there?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
And then yeah, so it was right there and then
life plus five years.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Yes he said life plus five, but I'm gonna suspend
the five but still life in Georgia. At the time,
she was convicted as a minimum of thirty years.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
That's a long time, so thirty before parole, right.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Before they even look at you.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
When I look, I heard my mama crying. I've never
heard her cry like that before, so that hurt me
more than anything because she's such a strong woman, and
hear her cry just brought my heart.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
So you're twenty six years old, but you're still your
mom's baby, Cynthia. I can't even fathom what that felt
like as a mother.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
It was like I was in the twilight zone or something.
And it happened to be the day that All those
days my girlfriend sat with me, but that particular morning
I was there alone. I just became hysterical. I just
couldn't believe it. It's like someone had taken my heart
and ripped it out of my chest and just was
stamping on it. I was feeling everything lost, hurt, betrayed.
(21:49):
I went to a courthouse where we claimed justice for all,
but it's justice for some. I felt I was discriminated against.
I felt like their main goal was to win a case.
They did not care who Michelle was. They did not
(22:10):
care any of that.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
During that time, I heard a voice. When I was
sitting up there, I heard a voice whisper m and
I thought it was my lawyer at first, but when
I looked and I seen he wasn't talking to me.
A voice whisper and say you're not gonna do a
life sentence, but you gotta go through this to become
the woman that you need to be. And later on
I knew it was God. But at that time, I
(22:33):
just was like, who said that?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Who said that?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
And I'm looking around and looking at my mom, and
everybody was crying, actually all my friends and family in church.
Everybody was crying. And I I remember saying, you know,
i'm'a be okay. God got me, and that voice stuck
with me, the voice. I took that voice all the
way to prison cause I believed that voice.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
They actually carried me out of the court room, eat
hands and feet. I sat in the lobby of the
courtroom and I just kind of waited. When I left
there to go to my car, I was I could
hear people talking around me, but it was like I
wasn't there, and I was just crying the whole way
(23:20):
to my car. And I could hear people saying, are
you all right, ma'am?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Are you all right, ma'am?
Speaker 4 (23:25):
And it was like they were talking, but I couldn't
grasp it, and I just kept walking. I got to
my car. I probably cried all the way home. For
the first few months, tears were my food, and it
was just a lot of crying and a lot of
just I didn't know what to do, kind of just
in a state of disbelief.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You
can listen to this and all the LoVa for Good
podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to
Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. So where were you?
(24:16):
Where were you? Signed? Michelle?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I was sent to Metro State Prison.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
What was the biggest hurdle for you transitioning to life
in prison?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Hmmm, oh wow, just everything.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I don't know, what was the biggest They all were
big to me, having to live with people who I
don't know who.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Some are evil, some are good.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Just being around these people that I deemed as crazy
when I first got there because I didn't know, Like
my perception of prison in jail was like, oh my god,
like everybody think it's murderous here, so you know, just
trying to adjust to that and trying to, I guess
fit in having to be in a room with somebody,
(25:08):
share the same bathroom, sleep on the hard bed, where
the same outfit every day, the socks, everything, it would
I mean, everything was big to me because it was
like a world that I couldn't even fantom like I
never never would imagine being in a place like that,
(25:29):
So everything was adjustment. Like when I got there, my
mom always make sure I have store because if you
cannot live off, you live off that food.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I would never eat.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
So and I'm a sweet person, so people see that
they try to take advantage of you, so they always
asking for stuff, and I'm always giving it to them
cause I'm used to being nice.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
I'm used to sharing. I'm used to having things, so
I don't mind sharing.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
So I remember the mental health counselor pulling me in
there and saying, listen, if you keep sharing, I'm gonna
write you up. You're in prison. Can you understand where
you're at. You're not at home. You gonna look at
you as week take advantage of you. You need to
stop doing it. And I'm like, I'm just being myself this.
She was like, well, you're gonna have to do something
different because it's not gonna work in this environment.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
So when was the next time that you guys got
to see one another physically, Cynthia? And what was that
like to see your daughter behind bars?
Speaker 4 (26:20):
The hardest part was leaving her and seeing her in there.
And of course every time you go to visitation, it's
a whole other set of drama. I hate the process,
the way you're treated, the things you have to go through.
They act like you have committed a crime. So the
county jail, luckily she didn't stay there, and then it
(26:41):
was a facility that wasn't too far from home, like
twenty minutes away, so that we could come pretty regularly.
But again I had to go through the process with
the guards. Some of them were very, very mean, but
as I begin to treat them in a certain way,
they begin to treat me in a better way, and
a lot of them I became good friends with towards
the end. But visitation process is horrible.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
How did that change the relationship that you two had,
because suddenly it's not just as easy as picking up
the phone whenever you want or popping by for a visit.
How did it change the way in which you guys
had to communicate Cynthia.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Well, it was difficult because visitation was limited, and then
they always changed stuff as you go along. Phone calls
were limited, and prison is expensive. It is a racket.
I mean we spent more money in those years with
phone calls packages. They charge you for everything. So it's
just a frustrating thing because you even through visitation, the
(27:43):
vending machines, the stuff is like a two hundred percent markup,
and then you take your chance when you put your
money in there that you might get some food and
you might not, and then it could be spoiled and
it could not and you won't get your money back.
But that's all you can do during that little time frame.
They gave you communication, You could write letters and stuff.
But all of that, there were times when I would
(28:04):
send a simple Christmas card. They sent it back two times,
but they would never tell me why. They would just
keep sending it back and I keep sending it back,
and it was just like, you don't know the rules
till you break the rules. But then sometimes they never
tell you the rules because they change depending on who's
on duty.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And they change them whether or not it's sparkle or
glitter or you never know what's acceptable or what's not.
So there's the physical inconvenience in trying to meet your
daughter's needs in terms of just basic necessities, but then
there's also the emotional toll that having to go visit
(28:44):
or to have a visitor come in. That must have
been really difficult on both of you.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I just always try to be positive and try to
see the meaning behind everything I try to.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Learn.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
It's always a lesson and in everything, in suffering, failure, anything.
So that helped me out a lot in staying full
of hope and faith.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
That is so admirable. But as weeks turned two months
turned to years, and you're not getting any traction, and
we're gonna step into Cynthia, the degree of advocacy you
did on your daughter's behalf. But was there any time
Michelle that it just felt too much for you. Did
(29:30):
you have a rock bottom moment?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Oh yeah, Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
When I kept getting denied, I fouled my emotion for
new trial.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Had I think I had three different.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Lawyers going back to court, lawyers just taking money.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, I definitely got discouraged.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
At one point, I remember going into my room and
just getting on my knees and just crying out to God,
just crying, crying, God.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
This can't be my life. I refuse to believe.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah, I'm just crying, crying like Lord, I not, this
is not what you got for me. And I cry
for a long time, the longest I've ever cried since
I've been incarcerated. And I feel like that was my
breaking point.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Cynthia, there's a quote that you said that I would
love for you to explain to me. Family members do
that time with their loved ones. Have served every minute
of these last thirteen years with Michelle.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
Yeah, people don't understand that the toll that it actually
puts on the family from a different viewpoint. First of all,
you carry around sometimes a shame. You don't want to
talk about it. You have to make adjustments because of
the money and stuff so you might have to give
up some things so that you know that you can
(30:51):
make sure that she has provisions. I mean, you're feeling
every ounce of that time in there as each day
goes by. You not physically confined to bars, but the
mental state of just going up there, and when you
even visiting those doors shut, your reality begins to sink in.
(31:14):
You have to deal with the fact thirty years, thirty years, well,
I'd even be alive in thirty years, and that's just
a minimum. So all of that, and then when someone
says life in prison, there's so much uncertainty. You don't
know what the next stay is going to bring. You
don't know if it's gonna be thirty years, thirty five years,
what it's gonna be. D're on like a track with
(31:37):
two two rails. One side is joy and happiness, the
other side is sorrow. The key is keeping balanced. If
you lean too much to the joy, then you're like
in denial. If you go too much to the sorrow,
then you can come depressed. But you have to balance
those tracks. Because I still had a daughter, grandchildren of life,
a job that I had to manage. But then I
(31:58):
had a daughter over here that I had to fight
for so it was a big balancing act.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
What for you was the toughest moment.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
Well, I had several tough moments. I can't say that
the road was easy at all. I mean several times
I had breakdowns, but I had a village that surrounded
me that encouraged me. So when I was feeling like that,
that was when I would get a card in the
mail and then have some encouraging words, or somebody would
(32:29):
say something to me at church. I remember one time
I was at home and I was just so distraughty,
dealing with lawyers and all of the system and all that,
and I went to the grocery store and saw a
man with no legs and he was shopping and getting
in the car, and it just it just did something
to me, Like, you know, I got to start looking
(32:49):
at what I do have and try to just be
more positive about it. But I mean it's heavy. Prison
system is heavy, and the more I got into it
or things I found out that were not right. There
are things that are legal, but they're not right. And
that became turn my pain into passion and my passion
(33:11):
into purpose. So I had to begin to shift it.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I love that, and you ended up turning to advocacy, Michelle,
inside you turned to academics. But was there a moment
where You're like, I'm going to take this anger and
this injustice and I'm going to turn it into action.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
God said, if I meet him halfway, he'll meet me
the other way. So I knew I had to do everything.
I engaged in an introspection. I went inside myself and
I had to fix the creeks and crevices within Michelle
to make sure I was going to become a better version.
And that included knowing my value, in my worth. And
(33:55):
once I started learning myself all over again, reading self
help book, taking classes, teaching classes, getting every education class
that was offered, I started looking at the world different.
My value changed, the people that I hung around changed,
everything changed. I knew my purpose, I knew my reason
for being there and had nothing to do with my crime.
(34:18):
It had every reason to do with me becoming a
woman that I needed to be inside of that throughout
the environment.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
That was the plan for my life.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, you did the work in two ways, because I
love how you talk about self acceptance and self love
and really learning to value your worth. But you also
worked hard on your education. Can you just tell me
about what you achieved educationally while you were incarcerated.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I took every self help group they had.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
But on top of that, I took a basic theology
course and I took advanced theology course. Got my associate's
degree inside of prison, and I started my bachelor's degree
while I was there. I also took some trades. I
took auto mechanic computer class, and I graduated with my
bachelor's degree when I got out of prison.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
And you didn't just graduate. You graduated with honors, if
I'm not mistaken. And now you're working on your masters.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Yes, I mean my master's in positive Psychology Life Culture.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I love that. And now, in terms of your advocacy, Cynthia,
it must have felt like you were up against an
entire system, because you really were, and it's a system
that you're absolutely right, is stacked against women like your daughter.
Just some stats. According to the Sentencing Project, in the US,
(35:47):
black women are locked up at one point six times
the rate as white women, and since nineteen eighty the
number of women in prison has risen five hundred and
twenty five percent and enjoyed Georgia fifty percent of the
women serving life sentences are black, and that's according to
the National Black Women's Justice Institute. So you're realizing your
(36:12):
eyes are open to these injustices in real time. How
did you turn that anger into action?
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Well, it wasn't easy because it's happened in two thousand
and nine, and for years I carried around shame. I
didn't want to really share it with people. I didn't
even want to share it with my church family, who
I've been going to that church for thirty almost forty years.
But there was just a small group that I did
confide in and they kind of held me up. But
(36:44):
a lot of people say they'll help you, but they
don't end up not helping you. I had even a
few pastors that would listen to my story so intently
and say, oh, yeah, that is wrong, and I'm going
to call you, and they would never call me back.
So I felt like I was the long ranger. And
then in two thousand and eighteen, I decided to go
to an event. I was attending a lot of seminars
(37:06):
and things like that, but this was one in Nashville, Tennessee,
and it was actually put on by organization from United
Methodist Church and in this little group setting, I shared
my story and I had never shared it in public
like that, and it caught the attention of one of
the ladies and they did a magazine article and then
(37:27):
it was out. But then doors began to open up
so big because I shared my story, and from then
it kind of just began to happen. But even to
the point where someone found us on the internet. People
beginning to help, paid for lawyers fees and just stepped
up when they heard our story. So it was a process,
(37:48):
not an easy one.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
And would you say that the turning tide for you
was going and opening yourself up to that group of
people in Nashville and telling your story.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
I think that's when things begin to turn. When that
got published and people began to know about it, that's
when other doors begin to open up. I found other avenues,
other groups, people begin to donate, even to the fact
that our last lawyer was paid for completely by a
complete stranger that I didn't even know.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Now I've read that for over a decade that you
organized and protested for the creation of a conviction integrity
unit in Fulton County. What was your driving mission and
why do you feel that really should be the goal
of every single county in Georgia and beyond.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
Well, Paul Howard was our previous district attorney here in
Georgia who has been the district attorney for years and years,
and he is the one that Michelle was sentenced under,
and he was getting ready to be up for election.
I didn't know how that was going to play out.
So Paul Howard, he decides to get this integrity unit
because that would make him look good because he's coming
(39:04):
up for reelection. Well, needless did he know. He did
not win? And it must have been predestined because the
new DA came to our church about a year before that,
and when I talked to her, something in my spirit
said she's going to be the one to help your daughter.
So when she got elected as DA, we went to
her and said, look, Paul Howard had this in place,
(39:26):
are you going to continue? And she said yes.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
And she's not just a DA, she's a rather famous
one at this point on a national stage. But so,
Fannie Willis, did you have a hope she would make
real change?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (39:44):
I know that she is a person about fairness and
about doing the right thing. When it comes to the
justice system, and I believe that she would come in
and make the crooked places straight, and I think that's
what she has been trying to do with his Integrity
Task Force. My prayers that county in Georgia would adopt
something like this and look at the cases because it's
(40:04):
been going on too long, the over sentencing of people
of color, people that are marginalized, and it's got to stop.
And I got a real education in the justice system.
It is not justice for all.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
And it's almost impossible to fight it on an individual basis.
You really do need that oversight to see the systematic
corruption that's going on and injustice. So after she was
inaugurated in January twenty twenty one, Fannie Willis kept her
campaign promise to prioritize the Integrity Unit and revisit cases,
(40:42):
including Michelle's. And Michelle you were resentenced in July of
twenty twenty one on one charge of attempted armed robbery,
basically the original plea offer that was turned down. But
by then, of course, you would already spend far more
than five years behind bars. What did that mean to you?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Both? Well?
Speaker 3 (41:04):
When I went back to court in July. It was unbelievable.
The judge, Amy Maxwell, she is absolutely amazing. I thought
she was my lawyer for a second, the way she
talked so highly of me, And I was so excited
once I heard the judge said, we're going to drop
the life sentence. And I'm gonna be honest, No, I
(41:25):
did not want to be reindicted for an armed robbery
charge because my five year charge was criminal attempt to robbery,
which is lesser than actual armed robbery. Armed robbery meaning
you had a gun, and it's just it's a bad charge.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
But at the end of the day, I am thankful.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
I am thankful because it got me out and I
know I can work to try to get my record.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Expunged when I get off of parole. But it's so
hard with that charge, that charge, it's hindering.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
It's a different kind of life sentence, you know.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, yeah, Yes, it's double jeopardy. It's double jeopardy. I
got out of that. Now I'm here and I can't
rent from nobody.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
So when I got reindicted in twenty twenty one, it's
showing up like I just committed the crime in twenty
twenty one. It's not going back to two thousand and
nine where I was originally charged. So people see that job,
see that, places rent see that, and they'd be like, oh,
this is a new charge.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
It's definitely a lot to.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Deal with for the Conviction Integrity Unit. Was it really
just a question of like laying it out for them
and saying, do you think this is fairer? Was it
just a question of getting her case reevaluated?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well?
Speaker 4 (42:41):
You have to remember too, when they first started that
there were over one hundred cases to review, and what
we heard was Michelle was weighed down at the bottom.
But God sent us a lawyer that has that same
don't give up spirit, and she was not going for it.
When we met and I told her my story, she
had this compassion. She immediately went to visit Michelle when
(43:04):
other lawyers I paid a lot more money, didn't even
do that. But she just was not going to give up.
And I think she just kept getting in their face.
So you got to look at this. You got to
look at it. And when they looked at it, they
begin to agree.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Jenni's man is a formidable force of nature. I can
see Michelle while you guys probably connected right away and Cynthia,
you too. She actually sent me something today which I
wanted to share with you because I think it speaks volumes.
Michelle's case went to the Supreme Court of Georgia and
the guilty verdict was upheld. Her case demonstrates why we
(43:39):
need laws to support conviction integrity units and sentence review units.
The court system as it stands doesn't always get it right.
Second look reviews like the one done in Michelle's case
not only give people a second chance, they put justice
back in the court system. Cynthia never gave up hope
on her daughter when the court slammed every door in
(44:02):
her face. Her strength is admirable and I see it
shining through Michelle. Together, we've achieved what many thought we couldn't.
We overturned her life sentence, and now Michelle can help
other young women to make better decisions in their lives too.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Hi, man, that sums it up perfectly.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
So, Michelle. August twenty second, twenty twenty two, you were
actually the first woman released from prison under Fulton's new
Conviction Integrity Unit after serving thirteen years. How do you
think you got through those thirteen years?
Speaker 2 (44:42):
My faith?
Speaker 3 (44:44):
I'm a very spiritual person, my faith in God, my hope,
of course my mom. Without her, it wouldn't have been possible.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
And how would you describe your relationship on the other
side of this? What do you guys mean to wanty another?
Speaker 3 (45:01):
That's my baby, that's my heart, well everything, she's my baby.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
No doubt, it's sensitive talking about her every time.
Speaker 4 (45:12):
We'd like to travel together. So we've been getting some
of that back. We've been taken two trips to Puerto Rico,
and we've been doing things together. So we're still trying
to get established. It hasn't been easy, but it's good
because we can now talk to each other and see
each other every day and we do.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
What advice would you both have for someone else who
finds themselves in this situation? I know that Cynthia, in
the process of advocating for Michelle, you came across many
other families who, like you, were on their own trying
(45:52):
to navigate getting through this process of getting their loved
ones released. What advice do you believe ve is most valuable?
Having gone through everything that you've gone through, to.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
Not focus on my situation, but to get involved, to
find out everything that I could to help myself. One
of the seminars that went they called participatory defense. You
must participate in your own defense. You cannot leave it
up to a lawyer. You cannot leave it up to anyone.
But you know yourself and you can fight for yourself
(46:29):
better than anyone. So you have to get involved. Michelle
did her part. She did not get in trouble. She
became the best she could be. And my part was
to participate and find out all the information I could
to see what I could do to help my daughter.
I would not accept no. Every door was closed in
our face, every appeal, we were down to the wire.
(46:50):
There was nothing less. But I knew there was going
to be a way because I was not going to
let it happen like that. If I had to go
sit on the steps of the courthouse for seven and
make a camp, I was just prepared to do anything.
You have to have that mindset because they're gonna tell
you no, because they're not looking out for your best interest.
Everybody's looking out for them. So I would say, get involved,
(47:14):
don't give up.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Get involved, Michelle. Why is helping people who're still there?
Resonate so deeply with you.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Because I've met some of the most amazing people I've
ever met in my life. In there some of the
best friends. When you're down at your lowest point and
you were able to build a friendship, a bond between
each other, I feel like that's the most realist friendship
you ever can have. So I have a lot of
women down there that I truly love. If I can
(47:44):
help them out, I will and advocate for them. It's
a lot of women down there that's innocent, or they
got too much time. They don't have no money, they
don't have no helps, They're just sitting there with nobody.
I want to be that person to help them any
way that I can, whether I can advocate for them,
(48:12):
whether I can support them mentally, spiritually, emotionally, anything that
I can do for them, I'm gonna do it because
I've been there before and I.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Understand the struggle. And without a strong support system, it's
so hard. It's so hard you can just ride away.
So I'm thankful.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
So not only am I going to be the change
that I want to see in the world, I'm going
to give back that love and compassion that I received
during that time because I know it helped me.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.
Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
links in the episode description to see how you can
get involved and how you can help. I'd like to
thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Wardis,
as well as our producers Annie Chelsea and Kathleen Fink.
(49:29):
This series is produced, edited, and hosted by me Lauren
Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing
by Hannah Bial, research by Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound
designed by Jackie Pauley with additional production by Jeff Clyburn.
Our theme music is by Jay Ralph. Be sure to
follow us across all social media platforms at Lava for
(49:51):
Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me
on all platforms at Lauren Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is
a product tion of Lava for Good Podcasts and association
with Signal Company Number one
Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have
been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,
even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like
to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it
like to be their ally, the one outside committed to
fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this
(00:26):
is wrongful conviction. Welcome to wrongful conviction. In two thousand
and nine, Michelle Morrison was convicted on a felony murder
charge along with aggravated assault, criminal attempt to commit armed robbery,
and conspiracy over a two thousand and seven shooting that
(00:49):
left a man dead. Now, what if I told you
that not only did Michelle not fire the weapon that
took the man's life, but she never even set foot
in the house where the shoe occurred. In fact, she
didn't even get out of the car. And yet Michelle Morrison,
at the age of twenty six, was sentenced to life
in prison plus five years. Her mother, Cynthia Holland, has
(01:13):
fought fiercely for her daughter's release, which finally occurred in
August of twenty twenty two, but only after Michelle spent
nearly thirteen years behind bars for a murder she did
not commit. Cynthia truly moved mountains to get her daughter
out of prison and in the process brought about real
reform in the Georgia justice system. And we'll get into
(01:38):
exactly how she went about that, but first, Michelle Morrison
and Cynthia Holland, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you, Lauren Hi,
thank you for having us wonderful listen. Before we get
into the event that left you in prison for thirteen years,
I just want to find out a little bit more
(01:58):
about you, Missae, as a person, your upbringing, where you
grew up, what kind of a child you were, and
your mom's here to keep you on us.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Well.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I grew up in Atlanta. My mom and dad were
married till I was five. I had a lot of energy.
I was more like a tomboy. I loved to hang
out with my uncle Joey. That was like my big brother.
I would ride a scooter, be in the trees, be everywhere.
I just I was real active. I had a lot
of energy.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
In school, I was a happy kid.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
What made you happy? What was your favorite music? What
were your favorite things to do.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Ooh, my favorite music Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson, and my
favorite thing. When I became I was like, how old
was I when I was in Girl Scouts? I think
I was in the fourth or fifth grade. But that
was my favorite thing. My mom was the leader and
I got to do everything. It was like I was
(02:56):
the mini leader because she was in charge. So I
had We went to the zoo to spend the night.
We went, we had sleepovers. It was fun selling cookies. Yeah,
that was really fun.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I'm a Samoa girl and nuts.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
So by your teens, from being a Girl Scout, you
kind of took a bit of a different path and
some of the decisions that you were making at the
time might have put you at odds with your mom.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Well, the area that we was in, I really didn't
care for my school.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I just didn't like my school. It wasn't really productive.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I had friends that went to some of the better schools,
but I couldn't go there first because I didn't stay
in the area. I didn't have the address, and then
my mom couldn't take me there because it was far.
So I kind of just didn't like school at all.
I'd be the person that to get finished with my
work and disrupt everybody in class then get in trouble.
I started kind of like falling back from school till
(03:54):
eventually I dropped out of school and I started hanging
out with some kids that one of the best kids
in the world, but you know, I started hanging out
with them because I thought they were cool.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Was that difficult for you, Cynthia, I mean, having been
the girls Scout leader to kind of having a rebellious
daughter on your hands.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yeah, needless to say, it was. But I had two daughters,
and it's amazing how you can have two children and
they can grow up exactly the same and then go
in different directions. So on one hand, I had one daughter
that was doing everything in school and loved school, and
the other hand, another daughter that was rebelling and was
(04:38):
just kind of going through that teenage stuff. A lot
of it was because we didn't have a lot of
the resources back then to help. When you're being a
single parent trying to raise two children, trying to work
and everything, it was tough. It was tough.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
What was the age difference? The age difference between you
and your sister.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Michelle years she's older than me.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
You know, sometimes it's it's easier to go the opposite
direction of an older sibling, particularly if they're hitting all
the high notes. It's a little easier to not follow
in their steps sometimes. How old were you when your
parents got divorced.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I was five, and that took That took a toll
on me because I was a daddy's girl and we
were super close, super close. So when they did get divorced,
you know, I understand what was going on. He moved
to another state and I had to wait till summer
breaks or Christmas breaks to see him. So, yeah, they're
right there. You know, that hurt me real bad.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
You know, I wanted my dad.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So by the time you got your teens or obviously
have different priorities than your older sister and a bit
at odds with your mom. But what were your goals,
your thoughts about the future.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I wanted to I always wanted to work in a
medical field from when I was young. It went from
a brain surgeon to a heart surgeon, so when I
realized I'm not doing at at school, to a pediatrician.
Then it went to an rin and that was the
final thing that I was going to do, but I
ended up enrolling in the CAB tech for a licensed
(06:16):
practical nurse. I went almost a year and I couldn't
stay focused because I was dancing in the nightclubs and
I was so tired trying to go to work and
trying to go to college. And then when I got
to math, math has always been my hearty subject, and
it just was frustrating me.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I already couldn't focus. So I ended up dropping out
of the cap tick.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And so that takes us about to the time when
this unfolded. How was that time period in terms of
your relationship, Cynthia, were you guys strained before this happened.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
I was a little disappointed about the things that she
was doing. I even remember in my Bible study group
we were giving prayer request and I mentioned pray for
my daughter because she grew up in the church. She
was acculate, she loved the church, and now she's taken
another path. And I remember the pastor telling me, don't
(07:13):
get so down because you're feeling like you're a bad
mother and it's not because of that, and he tried
to encourage me, and I was able to release it,
and I begin to say, well, God, this is your child.
What are you going to do with her? I just prayed.
And my grandmother, who bless her so has gone on
to heaven. She would say, She'll probably be the one
(07:36):
to surprise you, because when she was young, she would
just do things and say things that were just amazing.
So I knew it was inside of her, and I
think that's why all of this adversity hit her like
it did, and she went through that to become who
she is now.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Absolutely, And in terms of that adversity before this incident,
had you had any substantial runnings with the law.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Well, I had got on probation and end up going
to juvenile for not going to school. As my I
guess my punishment, they sent me to a wilderness camp
where I had to go for I think it was
six weeks where I had to go stay out into
the woods and it was so horrible and I remember
(08:25):
getting beat up by jiggers.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Oh it was. It was terrible. It was terrible.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
And I told my mom, I said, oh, I'm not
I'm going to school. I'm not going to do this
no more. Like my mom was like okay, okay, okay.
I was like, I'm not gonna do it no more.
So that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Then, in retrospect, those bug bites probably didn't seem as
bad as what ended up happening. So take me to
the night of June eleventh, two thousand and seven when
all of this went down. Seems almost like a series
of bad decisions that snowballed.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Well.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
So, while I was dancing, I did abuse pills. I
had a pill habit. They make you hang around people
that you think are your friends, and really the whole
time they're not your friends. It's the worst thing ever
in the world. But I had a friend that I've
been knowing for years, and she sold drugs and she
(09:20):
had an escort service. We've been friends, probably before I
start dancing. We were friends and we were cool, like
she never owned the vehicle. I always give her rides
to places or let her borrow my car. On this
particular night, she asked me for a ride to pick
up some money that was old to her. She wanted
the two guys to go with her because the guy
(09:41):
was dodging her phone calls and he owed her money
and she needed her money.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
And I drove her there.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
She used my phone, acting like her phone was dead
the whole time. I drove my car with my driver
license plates retro to my name.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Everything is to my name.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I mean, if I was going to commit a crime,
I would never let her use my my phone and
traced me. I would have never drove my car to
register straight back to my house. But once again, when
you're on heavy pills, none of that matters. You're not
even really paying attention what's going on in the car.
You're just driving. So the two guys get out the
car and I guess they go in. Me and her
talking the whole time. After they've been out for a second,
(10:17):
one of the other guys came in and got in
a car, breathing hard, you know, saying I don't know
what happened. I don't know if my boy shot this
guy or the guy shot him. And I'm looking like,
what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Shot what?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
So he's had one foot in, one foot out. I'm
dropped about to drive off, and he's like, I can't
leave my boy. He get out the car. I ended
up leaving because I didn't even know the man was dead.
I didn't know nothing.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
How did you find that out? The next day?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
So when I was going to go pick up my
contacts from the eyeglass place. The GBI pulled me over
and said they wanted to talk to me.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So that's when you first realized that you were caught
up in all of us, that you were now part
of the investigation.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
It took me to the police station and they had
me and my friend up there for a few hours.
They impounded my car and they let us go.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
And when did you loop your mom that all of
this was unfolding.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Actually, I didn't find out for quite some time because
my father, who was living in Alabama, was killed in
a car accident on June seventh, two thousand and nine.
So I was preparing a funeral, driving back and forth
to Huntsville, trying to secure his belongings and stuff. So
I was wondering why when Michelle came to the funeral,
(11:37):
she didn't have a vehicle, and she just told me
that it was in the shop or something. I still
didn't know until they actually knocked on my door, the
GBI and said that they were looking for her about
a homicide, and my heart just fell out. And the
(12:02):
GBI can remember him, you know, he was very calm,
He was very nice about it. He didn't believe that
she was guilty of it, he assured me, because I
was like in tears. He said, if you know where
she is, just tell her to turn herself in. And
I immediately called her, and that's what we did. I said,
get it straightened out, but we're not gonna run or
(12:22):
disregard this.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
So you turned yourself in willingly.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
It was right after the incident, and I was like, yeah,
I'm gonna do the right thing. I don't have no
reason to run.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
What was that time period like for you, from the
time you got the knock on the door of Cynthia.
Did you think that it was just a formality and
you'd go in, get questioned and leave.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
No. I thought it was serious. Matter of fact, I
begin to make in preparations. I went to a bondsman
to try to prepare for bail. I got things set up.
They told me that with those types of charges that
it would probably be serious and a very high bail.
I mean, I was scrambling trying to make sure that
(13:25):
I could try to not let her go to that
awful jail. All the things I saw on TV and
going people going to jail and getting killed. I mean,
all kinds of things was running through my head.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
And so Michelle, what was going through your head when
you walked in to turn yourself in?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Well, I was so afraid. I was so afraid.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
And I sat there for about a week inside of
the county jail till I got my bond here, and
I was scared. I had the same perception of prison
that my mama did, Like I couldn't imagine my self
in there for five minutes, let alone thirteen years. So
I was nervous. But thankfully God had me with a
(14:10):
good bunkie because we were praying together and stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
How did the detectives treat you initially off the bat?
Did you have a lawyer when you were first interrogated?
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Nope, And I can honestly say the GBI were very,
very very nice to me. They were trying to help
me out, like they wanted me to help them. They
wanted my co defend. But I didn't know where she was.
She ran, she was on a run. I couldn't help
you find her because she was running for me too.
I don't know where she was.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
So yeah, I think there was even an America's Most
Wanted episode about her.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Yeah, it was, and when we went to court for
her bond hearing, I brought members from my church. We
had three rows of people that stood up for her,
and the judge ended up giving her a bond of
one thousand dollars cash. When I called back the bond's
company and said, sir, I don't need you. My daughter
just got one thousand dollar cash bond and I can
(15:05):
pay that, he said, lady, you're crazy. Nobody gets it.
I said, I'm telling you, that's what the judge says.
My daughter's walking out. And she walked for two years.
There was no evidence. The GBI said that they were
astonished that they she was even indicted because there was
no physical evidence against her.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
So those two years must have been kind of like
having raincloud following you because you're still not in the clearer.
And so when did the plea deal first come on
the table? What were you offered and who offered it?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
I was offered five years, and that came from the
DA at the time. I was offered five years to
turn state on the other two guys that were there.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
So I had two lawyers.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I had the lawyer that I hired that I kind
of knew, so I kind of trusted him more, and
then he hired on another lawyer as a partner. So
it was like I had doctor Jeko on Hide. The
lawyer I hired, he was like, we're gonna fight. You're
gonna win this.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
La la la la.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
The lawyer that I didn't hire, he was like, I
was a prosecutor before. Take no five years. We know
you didn't do nothing, but you was there at the
scene of the crime. This is Georgia. Their laws are crazy.
So I'm having these two people in my head at
this time, and I'm like, oh my god, I don't
know Georgia laws. I ain't never been no serious trouble
like this. So I'm like, I'm finna fight for my life.
That's all I seen, That's all I can see. I'm
(16:32):
finna fight.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Well, I can imagine if you got a thousand dollars bond,
you probably felt that roll the dice. You're innocent, you
didn't do it, So why would you take five years
and testify against people when you weren't at the scene
of the murder.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Well, I, like Michelle did not understand the system. I
wasn't clear when they said five years, would she be
saying five years to murder.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
And it seems like, Michelle, you were getting really conflicting
legal advice heading into that trial too.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I wasn't.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Also, I had just enrolled into Georgia Perimeter for the
summer course. I was going to start the RIN program,
So in my mind, I didn't know they was going
to drop my charge to a list of charge. They
did not explain the five years. I'm thinking, I'm still
gonna have this murder charge. I'm like, I ain't gonna
be getting to college with his murder charge. These are
the thoughts going in my head. So I'm like, I'm
trying to go back to school and do the right thing.
I'm like, oh god, oh no, no, no, no, So
(17:31):
I didn't I didn't understand it.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
But that said, by the time you're heading into trial,
you're making steps to get your life back into order
and take me to the trial. What did it feel
like sitting in that courtroom and how did you feel
things were going for you? Michelle?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Oh, well, I can remember. I remember bits and pieces
of it. Being so scared. I still was abusing appeals.
I wasn't really in my right mind. I just wanted
to be numb. I'm so scared. I really didn't want
to be there. So the whole time, I'm just listening
to the case, and I'm listening to all the evidence
against my co defendents, listening to their extensive criminal history,
(18:15):
and it felt weird, like I didn't belong there. I
just felt crazy the whole time.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And it's two years after any event happened, and so
it's April of twenty oh nine. Cynthia. Were you there
during the trials.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
I was there every day. Me and one of my
prayer partners sat there in the courtroom, listened to all
the testimony. And that's why it was so devastating, because
the testimony never really had anything solid, and you think
for somebody to get a life sentence, you would have
to have a little bit more concrete evidence. Plus there
were several times that I ran into the judge shopping
(18:56):
at the grocery store, and one time he was right
in front of me in the line and he says,
aren't you the mother of the girl that's on trial?
And I said, yes, tell her to take the plea deal.
Tell her to take the plea deal. And I got
nervous because I didn't think judges were supposed to talk
to you about that, and it really made me nervous
(19:16):
more now about the plea deal, and I was like,
are they trying to set us up? Or what I mean?
So many things kept going through my mind because I
was so unsure.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Wow, and he was giving you a heads up because
I don't even think that could have prepared you guys
for the verdict. So take me to the exact moment
that the verdict is delivered, Michelle.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Oh, well, they delivered my co defense verdict first, and.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I was like, oh god, they said guilty.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
So then when they came back to mine and said guilty,
I felt like I felt like I've been stabbed, and
it's just I was shocked. I didn't know what to do,
what to say, and the judge looked at me and
he was like, I tried to tell this young lady,
you know, he please file your appeals like you can
(20:10):
tell everybody felt so bad. I remember a lady in
the jury. She was crying. I guess they didn't realize.
I don't even know if the jury was told. I
was offered five years because they said it after I
got the verdict came down. I was offered five years
so yeah, I was in total shock and disbelief.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I I didn't even understand what was going on, total disbelief.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Were you sentenced right there?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
And then yeah, so it was right there and then
life plus five years.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Yes he said life plus five, but I'm gonna suspend
the five but still life in Georgia. At the time,
she was convicted as a minimum of thirty years.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
That's a long time, so thirty before parole, right.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Before they even look at you.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
When I look, I heard my mama crying. I've never
heard her cry like that before, so that hurt me
more than anything because she's such a strong woman, and
hear her cry just brought my heart.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
So you're twenty six years old, but you're still your
mom's baby, Cynthia. I can't even fathom what that felt
like as a mother.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
It was like I was in the twilight zone or something.
And it happened to be the day that All those
days my girlfriend sat with me, but that particular morning
I was there alone. I just became hysterical. I just
couldn't believe it. It's like someone had taken my heart
and ripped it out of my chest and just was
stamping on it. I was feeling everything lost, hurt, betrayed.
(21:49):
I went to a courthouse where we claimed justice for all,
but it's justice for some. I felt I was discriminated against.
I felt like their main goal was to win a case.
They did not care who Michelle was. They did not
(22:10):
care any of that.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
During that time, I heard a voice. When I was
sitting up there, I heard a voice whisper m and
I thought it was my lawyer at first, but when
I looked and I seen he wasn't talking to me.
A voice whisper and say you're not gonna do a
life sentence, but you gotta go through this to become
the woman that you need to be. And later on
I knew it was God. But at that time, I
(22:33):
just was like, who said that?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Who said that?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
And I'm looking around and looking at my mom, and
everybody was crying, actually all my friends and family in church.
Everybody was crying. And I I remember saying, you know,
i'm'a be okay. God got me, and that voice stuck
with me, the voice. I took that voice all the
way to prison cause I believed that voice.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
They actually carried me out of the court room, eat
hands and feet. I sat in the lobby of the
courtroom and I just kind of waited. When I left
there to go to my car, I was I could
hear people talking around me, but it was like I
wasn't there, and I was just crying the whole way
(23:20):
to my car. And I could hear people saying, are
you all right, ma'am?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Are you all right, ma'am?
Speaker 4 (23:25):
And it was like they were talking, but I couldn't
grasp it, and I just kept walking. I got to
my car. I probably cried all the way home. For
the first few months, tears were my food, and it
was just a lot of crying and a lot of
just I didn't know what to do, kind of just
in a state of disbelief.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You
can listen to this and all the LoVa for Good
podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to
Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. So where were you?
(24:16):
Where were you? Signed? Michelle?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I was sent to Metro State Prison.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
What was the biggest hurdle for you transitioning to life
in prison?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Hmmm, oh wow, just everything.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I don't know, what was the biggest They all were
big to me, having to live with people who I
don't know who.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Some are evil, some are good.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Just being around these people that I deemed as crazy
when I first got there because I didn't know, Like
my perception of prison in jail was like, oh my god,
like everybody think it's murderous here, so you know, just
trying to adjust to that and trying to, I guess
fit in having to be in a room with somebody,
(25:08):
share the same bathroom, sleep on the hard bed, where
the same outfit every day, the socks, everything, it would
I mean, everything was big to me because it was
like a world that I couldn't even fantom like I
never never would imagine being in a place like that,
(25:29):
So everything was adjustment. Like when I got there, my
mom always make sure I have store because if you
cannot live off, you live off that food.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I would never eat.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
So and I'm a sweet person, so people see that
they try to take advantage of you, so they always
asking for stuff, and I'm always giving it to them
cause I'm used to being nice.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
I'm used to sharing. I'm used to having things, so
I don't mind sharing.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
So I remember the mental health counselor pulling me in
there and saying, listen, if you keep sharing, I'm gonna
write you up. You're in prison. Can you understand where
you're at. You're not at home. You gonna look at
you as week take advantage of you. You need to
stop doing it. And I'm like, I'm just being myself this.
She was like, well, you're gonna have to do something
different because it's not gonna work in this environment.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
So when was the next time that you guys got
to see one another physically, Cynthia? And what was that
like to see your daughter behind bars?
Speaker 4 (26:20):
The hardest part was leaving her and seeing her in there.
And of course every time you go to visitation, it's
a whole other set of drama. I hate the process,
the way you're treated, the things you have to go through.
They act like you have committed a crime. So the
county jail, luckily she didn't stay there, and then it
(26:41):
was a facility that wasn't too far from home, like
twenty minutes away, so that we could come pretty regularly.
But again I had to go through the process with
the guards. Some of them were very, very mean, but
as I begin to treat them in a certain way,
they begin to treat me in a better way, and
a lot of them I became good friends with towards
the end. But visitation process is horrible.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
How did that change the relationship that you two had,
because suddenly it's not just as easy as picking up
the phone whenever you want or popping by for a visit.
How did it change the way in which you guys
had to communicate Cynthia.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Well, it was difficult because visitation was limited, and then
they always changed stuff as you go along. Phone calls
were limited, and prison is expensive. It is a racket.
I mean we spent more money in those years with
phone calls packages. They charge you for everything. So it's
just a frustrating thing because you even through visitation, the
(27:43):
vending machines, the stuff is like a two hundred percent markup,
and then you take your chance when you put your
money in there that you might get some food and
you might not, and then it could be spoiled and
it could not and you won't get your money back.
But that's all you can do during that little time frame.
They gave you communication, You could write letters and stuff.
But all of that, there were times when I would
(28:04):
send a simple Christmas card. They sent it back two times,
but they would never tell me why. They would just
keep sending it back and I keep sending it back,
and it was just like, you don't know the rules
till you break the rules. But then sometimes they never
tell you the rules because they change depending on who's
on duty.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And they change them whether or not it's sparkle or
glitter or you never know what's acceptable or what's not.
So there's the physical inconvenience in trying to meet your
daughter's needs in terms of just basic necessities, but then
there's also the emotional toll that having to go visit
(28:44):
or to have a visitor come in. That must have
been really difficult on both of you.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I just always try to be positive and try to
see the meaning behind everything I try to.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Learn.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
It's always a lesson and in everything, in suffering, failure, anything.
So that helped me out a lot in staying full
of hope and faith.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
That is so admirable. But as weeks turned two months
turned to years, and you're not getting any traction, and
we're gonna step into Cynthia, the degree of advocacy you
did on your daughter's behalf. But was there any time
Michelle that it just felt too much for you. Did
(29:30):
you have a rock bottom moment?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Oh yeah, Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
When I kept getting denied, I fouled my emotion for
new trial.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Had I think I had three different.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Lawyers going back to court, lawyers just taking money.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, I definitely got discouraged.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
At one point, I remember going into my room and
just getting on my knees and just crying out to God,
just crying, crying, God.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
This can't be my life. I refuse to believe.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah, I'm just crying, crying like Lord, I not, this
is not what you got for me. And I cry
for a long time, the longest I've ever cried since
I've been incarcerated. And I feel like that was my
breaking point.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Cynthia, there's a quote that you said that I would
love for you to explain to me. Family members do
that time with their loved ones. Have served every minute
of these last thirteen years with Michelle.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
Yeah, people don't understand that the toll that it actually
puts on the family from a different viewpoint. First of all,
you carry around sometimes a shame. You don't want to
talk about it. You have to make adjustments because of
the money and stuff so you might have to give
up some things so that you know that you can
(30:51):
make sure that she has provisions. I mean, you're feeling
every ounce of that time in there as each day
goes by. You not physically confined to bars, but the
mental state of just going up there, and when you
even visiting those doors shut, your reality begins to sink in.
(31:14):
You have to deal with the fact thirty years, thirty years, well,
I'd even be alive in thirty years, and that's just
a minimum. So all of that, and then when someone
says life in prison, there's so much uncertainty. You don't
know what the next stay is going to bring. You
don't know if it's gonna be thirty years, thirty five years,
what it's gonna be. D're on like a track with
(31:37):
two two rails. One side is joy and happiness, the
other side is sorrow. The key is keeping balanced. If
you lean too much to the joy, then you're like
in denial. If you go too much to the sorrow,
then you can come depressed. But you have to balance
those tracks. Because I still had a daughter, grandchildren of life,
a job that I had to manage. But then I
(31:58):
had a daughter over here that I had to fight
for so it was a big balancing act.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
What for you was the toughest moment.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
Well, I had several tough moments. I can't say that
the road was easy at all. I mean several times
I had breakdowns, but I had a village that surrounded
me that encouraged me. So when I was feeling like that,
that was when I would get a card in the
mail and then have some encouraging words, or somebody would
(32:29):
say something to me at church. I remember one time
I was at home and I was just so distraughty,
dealing with lawyers and all of the system and all that,
and I went to the grocery store and saw a
man with no legs and he was shopping and getting
in the car, and it just it just did something
to me, Like, you know, I got to start looking
(32:49):
at what I do have and try to just be
more positive about it. But I mean it's heavy. Prison
system is heavy, and the more I got into it
or things I found out that were not right. There
are things that are legal, but they're not right. And
that became turn my pain into passion and my passion
(33:11):
into purpose. So I had to begin to shift it.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I love that, and you ended up turning to advocacy, Michelle,
inside you turned to academics. But was there a moment
where You're like, I'm going to take this anger and
this injustice and I'm going to turn it into action.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
God said, if I meet him halfway, he'll meet me
the other way. So I knew I had to do everything.
I engaged in an introspection. I went inside myself and
I had to fix the creeks and crevices within Michelle
to make sure I was going to become a better version.
And that included knowing my value, in my worth. And
(33:55):
once I started learning myself all over again, reading self
help book, taking classes, teaching classes, getting every education class
that was offered, I started looking at the world different.
My value changed, the people that I hung around changed,
everything changed. I knew my purpose, I knew my reason
for being there and had nothing to do with my crime.
(34:18):
It had every reason to do with me becoming a
woman that I needed to be inside of that throughout
the environment.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
That was the plan for my life.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, you did the work in two ways, because I
love how you talk about self acceptance and self love
and really learning to value your worth. But you also
worked hard on your education. Can you just tell me
about what you achieved educationally while you were incarcerated.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I took every self help group they had.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
But on top of that, I took a basic theology
course and I took advanced theology course. Got my associate's
degree inside of prison, and I started my bachelor's degree
while I was there. I also took some trades. I
took auto mechanic computer class, and I graduated with my
bachelor's degree when I got out of prison.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
And you didn't just graduate. You graduated with honors, if
I'm not mistaken. And now you're working on your masters.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Yes, I mean my master's in positive Psychology Life Culture.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I love that. And now, in terms of your advocacy, Cynthia,
it must have felt like you were up against an
entire system, because you really were, and it's a system
that you're absolutely right, is stacked against women like your daughter.
Just some stats. According to the Sentencing Project, in the US,
(35:47):
black women are locked up at one point six times
the rate as white women, and since nineteen eighty the
number of women in prison has risen five hundred and
twenty five percent and enjoyed Georgia fifty percent of the
women serving life sentences are black, and that's according to
the National Black Women's Justice Institute. So you're realizing your
(36:12):
eyes are open to these injustices in real time. How
did you turn that anger into action?
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Well, it wasn't easy because it's happened in two thousand
and nine, and for years I carried around shame. I
didn't want to really share it with people. I didn't
even want to share it with my church family, who
I've been going to that church for thirty almost forty years.
But there was just a small group that I did
confide in and they kind of held me up. But
(36:44):
a lot of people say they'll help you, but they
don't end up not helping you. I had even a
few pastors that would listen to my story so intently
and say, oh, yeah, that is wrong, and I'm going
to call you, and they would never call me back.
So I felt like I was the long ranger. And
then in two thousand and eighteen, I decided to go
to an event. I was attending a lot of seminars
(37:06):
and things like that, but this was one in Nashville, Tennessee,
and it was actually put on by organization from United
Methodist Church and in this little group setting, I shared
my story and I had never shared it in public
like that, and it caught the attention of one of
the ladies and they did a magazine article and then
(37:27):
it was out. But then doors began to open up
so big because I shared my story, and from then
it kind of just began to happen. But even to
the point where someone found us on the internet. People
beginning to help, paid for lawyers fees and just stepped
up when they heard our story. So it was a process,
(37:48):
not an easy one.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
And would you say that the turning tide for you
was going and opening yourself up to that group of
people in Nashville and telling your story.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
I think that's when things begin to turn. When that
got published and people began to know about it, that's
when other doors begin to open up. I found other avenues,
other groups, people begin to donate, even to the fact
that our last lawyer was paid for completely by a
complete stranger that I didn't even know.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Now I've read that for over a decade that you
organized and protested for the creation of a conviction integrity
unit in Fulton County. What was your driving mission and
why do you feel that really should be the goal
of every single county in Georgia and beyond.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
Well, Paul Howard was our previous district attorney here in
Georgia who has been the district attorney for years and years,
and he is the one that Michelle was sentenced under,
and he was getting ready to be up for election.
I didn't know how that was going to play out.
So Paul Howard, he decides to get this integrity unit
because that would make him look good because he's coming
(39:04):
up for reelection. Well, needless did he know. He did
not win? And it must have been predestined because the
new DA came to our church about a year before that,
and when I talked to her, something in my spirit
said she's going to be the one to help your daughter.
So when she got elected as DA, we went to
her and said, look, Paul Howard had this in place,
(39:26):
are you going to continue? And she said yes.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
And she's not just a DA, she's a rather famous
one at this point on a national stage. But so,
Fannie Willis, did you have a hope she would make
real change?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (39:44):
I know that she is a person about fairness and
about doing the right thing. When it comes to the
justice system, and I believe that she would come in
and make the crooked places straight, and I think that's
what she has been trying to do with his Integrity
Task Force. My prayers that county in Georgia would adopt
something like this and look at the cases because it's
(40:04):
been going on too long, the over sentencing of people
of color, people that are marginalized, and it's got to stop.
And I got a real education in the justice system.
It is not justice for all.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
And it's almost impossible to fight it on an individual basis.
You really do need that oversight to see the systematic
corruption that's going on and injustice. So after she was
inaugurated in January twenty twenty one, Fannie Willis kept her
campaign promise to prioritize the Integrity Unit and revisit cases,
(40:42):
including Michelle's. And Michelle you were resentenced in July of
twenty twenty one on one charge of attempted armed robbery,
basically the original plea offer that was turned down. But
by then, of course, you would already spend far more
than five years behind bars. What did that mean to you?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Both? Well?
Speaker 3 (41:04):
When I went back to court in July. It was unbelievable.
The judge, Amy Maxwell, she is absolutely amazing. I thought
she was my lawyer for a second, the way she
talked so highly of me, And I was so excited
once I heard the judge said, we're going to drop
the life sentence. And I'm gonna be honest, No, I
(41:25):
did not want to be reindicted for an armed robbery
charge because my five year charge was criminal attempt to robbery,
which is lesser than actual armed robbery. Armed robbery meaning
you had a gun, and it's just it's a bad charge.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
But at the end of the day, I am thankful.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
I am thankful because it got me out and I
know I can work to try to get my record.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Expunged when I get off of parole. But it's so
hard with that charge, that charge, it's hindering.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
It's a different kind of life sentence, you know.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, yeah, Yes, it's double jeopardy. It's double jeopardy. I
got out of that. Now I'm here and I can't
rent from nobody.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
So when I got reindicted in twenty twenty one, it's
showing up like I just committed the crime in twenty
twenty one. It's not going back to two thousand and
nine where I was originally charged. So people see that job,
see that, places rent see that, and they'd be like, oh,
this is a new charge.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
It's definitely a lot to.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Deal with for the Conviction Integrity Unit. Was it really
just a question of like laying it out for them
and saying, do you think this is fairer? Was it
just a question of getting her case reevaluated?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well?
Speaker 4 (42:41):
You have to remember too, when they first started that
there were over one hundred cases to review, and what
we heard was Michelle was weighed down at the bottom.
But God sent us a lawyer that has that same
don't give up spirit, and she was not going for it.
When we met and I told her my story, she
had this compassion. She immediately went to visit Michelle when
(43:04):
other lawyers I paid a lot more money, didn't even
do that. But she just was not going to give up.
And I think she just kept getting in their face.
So you got to look at this. You got to
look at it. And when they looked at it, they
begin to agree.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Jenni's man is a formidable force of nature. I can
see Michelle while you guys probably connected right away and Cynthia,
you too. She actually sent me something today which I
wanted to share with you because I think it speaks volumes.
Michelle's case went to the Supreme Court of Georgia and
the guilty verdict was upheld. Her case demonstrates why we
(43:39):
need laws to support conviction integrity units and sentence review units.
The court system as it stands doesn't always get it right.
Second look reviews like the one done in Michelle's case
not only give people a second chance, they put justice
back in the court system. Cynthia never gave up hope
on her daughter when the court slammed every door in
(44:02):
her face. Her strength is admirable and I see it
shining through Michelle. Together, we've achieved what many thought we couldn't.
We overturned her life sentence, and now Michelle can help
other young women to make better decisions in their lives too.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Hi, man, that sums it up perfectly.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
So, Michelle. August twenty second, twenty twenty two, you were
actually the first woman released from prison under Fulton's new
Conviction Integrity Unit after serving thirteen years. How do you
think you got through those thirteen years?
Speaker 2 (44:42):
My faith?
Speaker 3 (44:44):
I'm a very spiritual person, my faith in God, my hope,
of course my mom. Without her, it wouldn't have been possible.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
And how would you describe your relationship on the other
side of this? What do you guys mean to wanty another?
Speaker 3 (45:01):
That's my baby, that's my heart, well everything, she's my baby.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
No doubt, it's sensitive talking about her every time.
Speaker 4 (45:12):
We'd like to travel together. So we've been getting some
of that back. We've been taken two trips to Puerto Rico,
and we've been doing things together. So we're still trying
to get established. It hasn't been easy, but it's good
because we can now talk to each other and see
each other every day and we do.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
What advice would you both have for someone else who
finds themselves in this situation? I know that Cynthia, in
the process of advocating for Michelle, you came across many
other families who, like you, were on their own trying
(45:52):
to navigate getting through this process of getting their loved
ones released. What advice do you believe ve is most valuable?
Having gone through everything that you've gone through, to.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
Not focus on my situation, but to get involved, to
find out everything that I could to help myself. One
of the seminars that went they called participatory defense. You
must participate in your own defense. You cannot leave it
up to a lawyer. You cannot leave it up to anyone.
But you know yourself and you can fight for yourself
(46:29):
better than anyone. So you have to get involved. Michelle
did her part. She did not get in trouble. She
became the best she could be. And my part was
to participate and find out all the information I could
to see what I could do to help my daughter.
I would not accept no. Every door was closed in
our face, every appeal, we were down to the wire.
(46:50):
There was nothing less. But I knew there was going
to be a way because I was not going to
let it happen like that. If I had to go
sit on the steps of the courthouse for seven and
make a camp, I was just prepared to do anything.
You have to have that mindset because they're gonna tell
you no, because they're not looking out for your best interest.
Everybody's looking out for them. So I would say, get involved,
(47:14):
don't give up.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Get involved, Michelle. Why is helping people who're still there?
Resonate so deeply with you.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Because I've met some of the most amazing people I've
ever met in my life. In there some of the
best friends. When you're down at your lowest point and
you were able to build a friendship, a bond between
each other, I feel like that's the most realist friendship
you ever can have. So I have a lot of
women down there that I truly love. If I can
(47:44):
help them out, I will and advocate for them. It's
a lot of women down there that's innocent, or they
got too much time. They don't have no money, they
don't have no helps, They're just sitting there with nobody.
I want to be that person to help them any
way that I can, whether I can advocate for them,
(48:12):
whether I can support them mentally, spiritually, emotionally, anything that
I can do for them, I'm gonna do it because
I've been there before and I.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Understand the struggle. And without a strong support system, it's
so hard. It's so hard you can just ride away.
So I'm thankful.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
So not only am I going to be the change
that I want to see in the world, I'm going
to give back that love and compassion that I received
during that time because I know it helped me.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.
Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
links in the episode description to see how you can
get involved and how you can help. I'd like to
thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Wardis,
as well as our producers Annie Chelsea and Kathleen Fink.
(49:29):
This series is produced, edited, and hosted by me Lauren
Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing
by Hannah Bial, research by Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound
designed by Jackie Pauley with additional production by Jeff Clyburn.
Our theme music is by Jay Ralph. Be sure to
follow us across all social media platforms at Lava for
(49:51):
Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me
on all platforms at Lauren Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is
a product tion of Lava for Good Podcasts and association
with Signal Company Number one
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