February 4, 2025 • 41 mins
Join @thebuzzknight with Andrew Reich, the director of Born Innocent, The Redd Kross Story which chronicles the 45-year history of the influential rock band. Andrew is best known for his work as executive producer and writer on the iconic sitcom Friends.
For info on screenings of Born Innocent go to https://www.reddkrossfilm.com/watch.
For questions or comments, write buzz@buzzknightmedia.com
Check out our companion podcast here hosted by Lynn Hoffman called Music Saved Me. here
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I had a sense of how much other musicians respect
to them, but the extent of it, I don't think
I realized, you know, so many of these you know,
people from household name bands. When I reached out and like, hey,
would you be, they were just like absolutely, like I
love Red Cross and and you know the you know,
(00:22):
there are people I didn't even get to, but you know,
Dave Davies from The Kinks is like a fan. I mean,
it just goes pretty wide, and I'm still discovering people
that I had no idea were Red Cross fans.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast. Thanks for checking
out the podcast, and check out the Music Save Me podcast,
produced by Buzznight Media Productions and hosted by Lynn Hoffman. Today,
buzz Night speaks with Andrew Reich, the director behind the
documentary Born Innocent, The Red Cross Story. If you missed
(00:56):
Jeffrey and Stephen McDonald on our previous episode of this post,
to check that one out, there really something. Andrew is
no stranger to the entertainment world, having made his mark
as an emming winning television writer and executive producer for
the hit show Friends. Here's Andrew Reich with buzznight on
taking a Walk.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Well, Andrew, thanks for being on Taking a Walk. It's
really a pleasure to.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Have you on. Oh I'm so, I'm so excited to
be here. Thanks buzz.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
So it is called taking a walk, as you know,
and I do want to ask you the question, which
is if you could take a walk with anybody living
or dead, doesn't have to be a music figure, but
it could be who would you like it to be
and where would you take that walk?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, I feel like I cheated a little bit because
I listened to the episode you did with Think of
Jeff and Ce from Red Cross, So I knew this
question was coming.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
And I was like thinking about it, and I'm going
I was like, you know, David Bowie or like Iggy Pop.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I always had this feeling like that I would get
along with Iggy, like if we ever could meet, like
I felt like I feel like we would, you know.
And then this is and then I was really thinking
about it because and this is gonna seem like such
a sort of lamem in a way. But but like
walking through Hollywood with Jeff and Steve McDonald and hearing
them just tell me stories about all the stuff that
(02:23):
used to be there and the like the crazy adventures
they got into, like on every block of Hollywood Boulevard
and that I'm like, I think as much time as
I've spent with them, that would probably be the best.
That'd probably the most fun fun walk I could take,
because there's an infinite number of stories those guys have.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
And uh, and.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
It's funny because I was like, well, I could make
that happen like that, you know, walking walking with David
Bowie through London or whatever is impossible, but and as
cool as that would be, or with Iggy through you know,
Detroit or something like, it might just be walking through
Hollywood with Jeff and Steve McDonald.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Oh. I think it'd be great. I would absolutely love it.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And you know, one of the great things about them
is the rabbit holes that conversations go down with them.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
It's just it's incredible. It's so much fun.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yes, yeah, infinite, infinite rabbit holes to go down.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
So tell me how you got inspired to make your
directorial debut.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
It is your director's correct debut with Born Innocent The
Red Cross Story.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
You know, it was never a.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Goal of mine to make a documentary. It was never
an aspiration or anything. It really was just, you know,
been a fan of Red Cross since I was in
high school, since nineteen eighty four, which was, you know,
the first time I really heard them, which was their
teen Babes from Monsanto EP, which I got because I
(04:02):
was like this punk rock kid in New Jersey who
had become a DJ on my public high school radio station,
which a friend the other like punk kid in my school,
and I did really just so we could get free records.
We thought like, hey, you know, we get our FCC licenses,
we get this radio show, we can like get the
letterhead and we can write to these little record labels
(04:24):
and maybe they'll send us free records. And it worked
like so well, and then Teen Babes just came in
a package one day, and it was really not like
the other stuff I was listening to at the time,
which was just mostly pretty you know, minor threat, bad
brains inspired, speedy hardcore, and I didn't know any.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Of the songs. They're all covers pretty except.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
For one, but I didn't know any of them because
I didn't listen to Kiss, I didn't listen to The Stones,
you know. I really the first music I paid attention
to was punk rock and then hardcore.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
But there was something about that record.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
That I'd just loved so much, and then that just
started this kind of lifelong fandom of this of this
band and all the permutations, as different as every record was,
I just loved all of them and always just found
them more interesting than the rest of the groups of
the scene that they came out of, Like you know,
whatever I loved.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I loved the Circle Jerks.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
That was my first concert I ever saw, but they
weren't as interesting to me as Red Cross. And so
lifelong fan, and you know, moved to LA in nineteen
ninety and got to see them.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
And and just felt and.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
In later years, you know, we saw a show like
ten years ago and it's just like this band, this
is the ultimate LA band. Really when you think about it,
like every other LA band connects to Red Cross in
some way. You know, it's going back to whatever, to
the Beach Boys, like they're both you know, bands of
brothers from Hawthorne to whatever. You know, the Runaways, the Germs,
(05:58):
the Go Gos, the Bengal Jane, Red Hot, Chili Peppers,
you name it.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Like there's gonna be there's gonna be.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Some connection to Red Cross, and so I was sort
of having that thought in my mind. And then I
heard Steve MacDonald tell this incredible story of this sort
of abduction that happened to him when he was young
on this other podcast and this turned out a punk
podcast that Damian Abraham does, And I heard that story
and I told my wife about it. I was just
(06:25):
like recounting the story, and I was like, someone needs
to make a documentary about this band, like it would
just make such a good documentary, And she said, well,
why don't you do it? And I just, you know,
I just started thinking, like, you know, maybe this isn't
as crazy as an I did, as as it sounds.
It ust it's just like, you know, I'm not a
(06:46):
director or documentary filmmaker, but I've been a writer in
TV for twenty five years or so, so you know,
I can tell stories.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
And I did have these mutual friends, so I knew could.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Introduce me to the band, and I don't know, I
just sort of like made my pitch to them, which
they responded to, and then it was just a process
of figuring out how to do it. But I think
what helped is just this long time fandom and not
just of them, but of all the other musical worlds
(07:16):
that they were a part of. So everyone I interviewed
I could talk to I think musicians and music people's
sense like are you really a music person?
Speaker 4 (07:25):
And with everyone they you know, I.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Know, I've been an obsessive for long enough that any
of these people I met quickly got a sense of, Okay,
this guy kind of knows what he's talking about. And
when they were at a loss, like they can't remember,
like wait, you know whatever, who was the who played
drums for this band?
Speaker 4 (07:48):
Like often I would know that. And there's just that.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Language right that you know, you know you're a music person,
you know when you find someone who speaks the language.
And so yeah, So that was how I just sort
of stumbled into this thing, which is, you know, taking
up the last like eight or nine years of my
life and has been the most fun rewarding thing probably
I've ever done.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Really all Right, but tell me how your experience as
a TV writer and producer, particularly your work on Friends,
how it influenced and prepared you for the work on
this documentary.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Well, I mean I think that knowing Red Cross and
knowing Jeff and Steve not personally knowing them, but knowing
them via you know, reading interviews and fanzines and you know,
YouTube clips. I knew they were really funny, and I
think it was part of what drew me. I was
just like, a movie about these guys has the potential
to really be funny because they're just they just are
(08:47):
naturally funny people, and so in any you know, I've
tried writing dramas over the years, but it just never
feels right, like I just want the laughs, like I
just you know, there's something about writing comedy where it's
a it's very clear whether you got the answer right.
You know, it's like did the audience laugh. If you did,
(09:10):
then that was correct, you wrote it correctly, right. So
so I think I was drawn to this because I
sensed that this movie could be funny.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
It's not exclusively funny.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
There's dark moments in it, and there's you know, there's
heartfelt moments.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
But but I think if I didn't.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Feel like the movie could be funny, it wouldn't have
have been interesting to me and what I had to
So there are a couple of things. You know, you
write network TV, you've got very strict time guidelines for
how long something can be. You know, it's like you,
this thing is gonna have you when you're talking about
a network sitcom, it's gonna have to be about twenty
(09:49):
one and a half minutes.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Like, whether you like it or not. It's even gotten
shorter now probably, But.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And so you learn to cut things that you really
love and just get over it, you know, not be
too sentimental about it, and you know, I love this
joke or this scene, but it's got to go. And
so I think that helped me once I decided with
making this based on seeing some other music documentaris I
thought just overstayed their welcome. I was just like, this
(10:15):
movie is gonna be under ninety minutes, because I was
just sort of fast forwarding in time to imagining this
movie living on a streaming service somewhere and some music
documented a music fan coming across it, not knowing Redcup
Red Crosses, but maybe seeing like wait, okay, there's members
of Pearl Jam and the Go Gos and Black Flag
(10:36):
and Soundgarden, and you know, like, huh, this seems like
maybe it would be interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
How long is it? Oh, it's under ninety minutes. I'll
check that out. Whereas if it's like, wait, it's two
hours and twenty minutes. Forget it.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna spend that much time
on a band I've never heard of. So I just
had this, you know, I was thinking about that imaginary
viewer going like, huh, eighty nine minutes. I'll yeah, I'm
gonna check this out. And I know once they had
a feeling, once they started it, they would get sucked in.
So I was just like, it's got to be under
ninety minutes. And that involves cutting a lot of stuff
out that I really love. But I think that training
(11:11):
of being a sitcom writer helps train you.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
And then the other thing was just it was frustrating
because I wanted to have.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
The movie just be told by the interviewees and the
archival footage, not have a narrator, not have a lot
of text on the screen telling you the story, just
telling it just through soundbites of the people I interviewed.
And then so there's times where you're just like, well,
(11:40):
I wish I could write, you know, my instinct would
be to write a punchline or a joke or whatever,
but you can't do that.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
You have what you have.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
But I learned, Oh, the images contrasted with the audio
can something.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
You can get it laugh.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
That way, And so it was this sort of new
comedic language of learning through the editing. And people see
the film, I think we'll better understand discovering. Okay, I
can just I can find a new language of comedy
sort of in these editing techniques. And so when I
(12:19):
watch it with an audience and I see where the
laughs fall, it's just like, Okay, that worked. You know,
I just figured out a different way that's not exactly writing,
but is a kind of writing. So and the timing
of that is again something that I've learned over just
many years of doing TV. You know, half hour comedy
is you know, timing is so precise. Like I've sat
(12:42):
in lots of editing rooms, editing shows, and it's just
like the cut has to go like right there. If
we're a few frames early or late, it's no longer funny.
It's like right there is where the cut has to happen.
And so when I was working with my editor, there
was a lot of that same thing, like, no, we
have to cut here and that's where that'll produce a laugh.
But if we let it linger a little bit longer.
(13:04):
Suddenly it's not going to be funny. So I think
that timing, that editing timing, you know, that was supponed
over years of being a comedy writer. Really did you
know was helpful?
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And was reassured because I whin it's its like I
don't know what I'm doing, I have no idea, and
then it was like, wait a minute, I kind of do.
It's just a little bit different, but some of the skills, uh.
And the experience does apply. It comes across, it's it's legitimate.
It has an amazing flow to it. It keeps you engaged.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
And wanting, wanting more of it. I have to ask you.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
The McDonald brothers talked about their parents, who are such
an instrumental part of, you know, of their life and
part of the documentary. And they talked about the the
bickering nature.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Of the parents as well.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Uh, they which they I believe said that the parents
have mastered the art of bickering. Did you witness this firsthand?
Speaker 4 (14:07):
You know, maybe a little there wasn't you know? That
interview with the parents, which is such a key part
of the.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Film, took me a while to get you know, it
was years of sort of saying to Jeff and Steve, hey,
could do you think I could talk to your parents?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
You think?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
And they're just like putting me off and putting me off,
and I think they were worried about them doing it,
you know, not wanting to do it. They're you know,
somewhat shy, and you know, I just felt it was
really important, you know, especially in terms of this sort
of abduction story that I'm going to keep hinting at
(14:45):
with and try not.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
To spoil for viewers.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And so they were quite nervous in that interview for sure,
and you know, you do what you can. But I
certainly didn't start the interview like let's talk about when
Steve got kidnapped, you know.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
It was just like, let's talk about.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Happier things and plentier things and talk about the grandkids
and trying to get them at ease, you know. But
they were not at ease. They you know, they were
not really comfortable being on camera. I think I kept
having to tell Terry their dad, like that that fidgeting
thing you're doing is we're hearing that.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
You know, the mics are picking up this.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Like fidgety thing that you're you're doing and and and
there were things like that, but ultimately, you know, you
do get a real sense of who the who they
are and that they're just these you know, kind of
souls of the earth, working class people who were good
parents and not checked out. And you know, yeah, their
(15:45):
kids ran wild a little bit, but not totally. They
always had this sort of loving, you know, family to
go back to. And maybe there was a little bit
with the two of them of of of bickering back
and forth, but not like Jeff and Steve.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
You know, there was way.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
More big that I captured in the interviews with Jeff
and Steve then with Janet and Terry, so I didn't
see as much of that. A few you know, there's
a there's a moment in the film where you know,
they're going through all these Red Cross T shirts that
they've collected over the years, and Terry, their dad's it's
(16:19):
like it's a good shirt. Maybe I'll wear it, and
it's like, no, no, you will not. So there was
a few moments like that where you you know, you
see that that dynamic, but no, they weren't really at
each other, and you know, and I did make them
relive the worst, the worst months of their life, you know,
that time when Steve was gone and they had no idea.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Where he was or alive or dead or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
You know, it's a traumatic thing that I was asking
them to really, you know, go back and relive, which
was not fun for for anyone. But they finally did
see the movie. They hadn't seen it until just a
few weeks ago. They came to the santam A screening
that we did, and I was really nervous, you know,
(17:02):
to have them there and finally see it and what
they were going to think. And I talked to them
after and they they loved the movie, and you know,
they were all good with their appearances in it, and
so that was really a relief.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
And regrettably, I had so much hysterical laughter from me
in my episode with the Brothers that I did not
really touch on the kidnapping.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
I apologize. So I'm glad you're.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Coming, because I just I wanted to. But we were
clearly going in this other direction of euphoria that I
just couldn't resist, you know.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
I get it.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, I was talking about divine and whatever. Yeah, you know,
and it's okay, It's like I.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
Don't wanna.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
It's an important part of the story, obviously important part
of the story, and yet you know it's not in
the trailer. I just didn't want to be exploitative about it.
It is important, it had to be told.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
A lot of.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
People who are fans of the band didn't know the story,
just like I didn't until, you know, probably ten years ago.
But so it's understandable you guys were having too much
fun to talk about, you know, unpleasant things like that.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
So what as a fan did you learn ultimately in
the process of doing this about Red Cross that you
didn't know?
Speaker 4 (18:20):
I mean, there are there there are little things like
I had I had never seen that Rock Against Drugs
MTV spot that Jeff did with Vicky Peterson from the
Bengals when they were dating, which is.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Just this incredible like bit of footage that I could
not believe when I saw it. So there's there are
little things like that. But I probably mostly what I learned,
they were always kind of Jeff and Steve McDonald to me,
this this entity, you know, Jeff and Steve, and I
didn't quite have the sense of how very different they
(18:53):
are and just their personalities are are.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
So completely different.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I mean, they have so much in common, but they're
completely different people, and so I think that was the
main thing, was really getting to know them and the roles,
the different roles that they play in the band. And
and I think by the end of the film, I
from lots of people that they really do feel like, Okay,
we feel like we know these guys, and we get
(19:20):
their dynamic, the sibling dynamic, and it's familiar to a
lot of people, you know, who have siblings. And that was,
you know, the main thing that I think I really learned,
and becoming friends with each of them, you know, you know,
the friendships are sort of very different because they're such
different people, and so I think it really was the
(19:44):
distinct personalities where I really just thought of them as
this total unit growing up listening to them. That was
the main thing that I took away. And I think,
and I guess too, like I had a sense of
how how much other musicians respected them, but the extent
(20:07):
of it, I don't think I realized you know, so
many of these you know, people from household name bands.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
When I reached out and like.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Hey, would you be they were just like absolutely, like
I love Red Cross and and you know, these you know,
there are people I didn't even get to get to,
but you know, Dave Davies from the Kinks is like
a fan. I mean, it just goes pretty wide. And
I'm still discovering people that I had no idea were
(20:34):
Red Cross fans are, you know, I said from the beginning,
like even the Kickstar material, and like they're always been
the sort of secret handshake band among real sort of
music obsessives. And and but the extent of that, how
the Red Cross fans kind of come out of the
woodwork is really cool for men that never sold a
(20:57):
ton of records or you know, had any hits, Like
they've got fans in all kinds of places.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
We'll be right back with more of the Taken a
Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Can you talk about a couple of the key interviews
you did with the musicians and how they felt about
the impact that Red Cross made on them, because there's
a bunch of them, but a single a few of
them out.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I mean, I.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Guess the easiest to talk to is just the Seattle
grunge scene. Pretty Much everyone from that scene was a
Red Cross fan, and they were very important to that movement,
and I think it does surprise a lot of people
(21:52):
because they don't exactly sound like a grunge band. But
when I talked to you know, Mark R and Steve
Turner uh from Mud Honey and you know, and and
Green River before that, you know, the beginnings of that
grunge movement was you know, it was Green River and
(22:14):
the Melvins and Malfunction and there you know fewbends that.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Those guys really do, say, like Red Cross.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Uh, teen Babes from Monsanto and Eurotica particularly, Uh. You
know what that movement came out of was there were
like the punk rock kids, you know, who were big
Black Flag fans and and and metal kids, and the
coming together of those two groups.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
Is what sort of begat grunge.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
And they all say, you know that teen Babes from
Monsanto and Eurotica were records that both sides could agree on.
So you're at a party and there's this commingling starting
to happen of these two sides which had been sort
of kept separate and at odds, and they're starting to
hang out together.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
But you got to decide, like what do you play
at those parties?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It was like Red Cross like the metal kids, the
punk kids were like, we all like Red Cross, and
so when they came to Seattle to play in nineteen
eighty seven, that to me to talk.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Into these guys.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
There are these moments, like you know, when the sex
Pistols play at the Manchester Free Trade Hall and everyone that's.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Going to go on to form bands from.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Like the Buzzcocks to the Smiths are at that show
and it has this big bang kind of effect. I
think that Red Cross concert in nineteen eighty seven at
the Crescent ball Room in Tacoma is another one of
those moments where everyone's in the room. So Kurt Cobain's there,
and you know, the opening bands are Green River and
(23:52):
Sound Garden and Malfunction and so those are the roots
that will you know, obviously those bands, but also Pearl
Jam and you.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Know, so so every major figure that's.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Going to be in this huge thing that's going to
change rock music in the nineties, they're all there and
they're all agreeing, like this band is incredible.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
And I think the guys who started subpop will say
that that Red Cross was one and Neurotica was one
of the things that that inspired them to start sub
pop records, So you know, I think that that's a
huge contribution that few people know about, and you know,
(24:37):
you know, so that's one. I mean, I think there
are others. I think each phase of Red Cross's career
they've inspired different groups of bands. You know, obviously their
first incarnation, you know, their drummer becomes the lead singer
of Black Flag, and their guitarist starts the Circle Jerks,
you know, so you know, they're a big part of
(24:58):
that Southern California hardcore, the inception of Southern California. It
wasn't even called hardcore when they started. They're just thinking
of themselves as a punk rock band, but they're there
right at that moment that Southern California hardcore starts, which
you know goes on to have a huge impact on
music as well. And I do think even I wasn't
(25:21):
able to document this as much. But I think they
were an influence on the britpop movement too, because in
the early nineties they played a lot in the UK,
and I think just the way they looked got copied
by bands like Swede and The Verb and and I
think their sound did have an influence on paulp and
(25:43):
Blur and Oasis in those bands, But it's something that
I can't you know, I wasn't able to get the
proof by talking to those bands, but I do think
that time they spent really gigging a lot in the UK.
The sound they had at the time I hear and
a lot of the bread pop bands.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
You know what's also fabulous about the documentary, it's not
only the story of Red Cross and Born Innocent, but
it really takes you through a moment in time that
some of the things I remember and so I don't
remember in terms of the way that you.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Captivate us with with that.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
What was the job like with archival footage and finding it?
Speaker 4 (26:26):
How long did that take? I mean it took the
whole you know.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I guess we could say the movie took like seven
years to make, and that whole time I was always
seeking out more you know, footage.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
I started with a big box of VHS tapes that
Jeff MacDonald gave me. I got another box from the
guy who runs the Red Cross website, Robert Hecker, their
longtime guitarist, gave me a box. So there's you know,
so that was a lot of material, and I had to,
you know, get a VCR and go through each those
tapes and see what's on each of them.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
And then it was just sort of putting the word out.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
However, I could to see who else out there, what
other fans maybe taped the show at some point, and
there were incredible discoveries like all throughout. I mean, the
good thing about it taking so long to make was
I was finding really great stuff, like right up until
the end, and stuff that if I had made it quicker,
(27:28):
I wouldn't wouldn't be in the film. So when you know,
Greg Hetson, their first guitar player who started the Circle.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
Jerks and played in Bad Religion, and I was asking him.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I was like, hey, you know, for the part where
I'm talking about the formation of the band, like it'd
be cool if if I could get like a high
school graduation photo or something like do you have something
like that? And he was like, you know what I've
got is my dad came to our first show at
the Hong Kong Cafe and he took a bunch of
pictures of there's slides in a box somewhere.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Would you be interested in that? And I was like,
are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Like, there's a photographic record in color of the first
Red Cross show, and it took me a while to
get him to dig him up and scan them. But
so in the film there's these incredible photos of, you know,
of their first show that you never see color photos
of that early punk roxy. They're all black and white.
All the main photographers were shooting black and white.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
So that was like a crazy cool thing.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And there was also at some point I was like
talking to this company that licenses a lot of public
access music shows and stuff like that, and I was
talking about this footage of a later concert that had
been shot by this French TV show, and I was like, hey,
I also have the Red Cross's first TV appearance.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Would you be interested in that? I was like, what
are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
And I guess they had been on New Wave Theater,
which is this kind of you know, famous public access
show in LA was started on public Access and then
went to the USA network where a lot of underground
bands played, and it's the only existing footage of a
lot of these bands. But I had no idea that
Red Cross had been on it, and no one had
(29:09):
ever seen this sort of the guys hadn't seen it,
and it was at this early moment before they made
the first full length, the Born Innocent album, and it's
professionally shot and it looks great, and you know, so
that's in the film.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
There was another incredible discovery.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
So you know, part of the job of being a
music documentary filmmaker is being an archaeologist. That's a big
part of it. The archaeology part of it is is
big and a band like this, an underground band started
in the eighties, Like, it's a hard job. They weren't
(29:45):
on MTV. You know, there's not a lot of professionally
shot stuff. It was like I watched that Wham documentary,
which I thoroughly enjoyed, but I was like, oh my god,
they have so much TV footage to choose from, Like
this band was so well documented by professional camera people.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
I didn't have any of that.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
You know, there's there's there's a few professional music videos
from their brief major label moment, but the early days,
it's really hard to find anything. And even you know
that Crescent Ballroom show and Tacoma I'm talking about it
was a major moment. I still haven't been able to
find a single photograph, bit of video anything from that show.
I'm just and it kills me because I know it's
(30:27):
out there. There had to have been someone in that
crowd with like an instematic, you know, who took a
few shots. But I asked everyone I could think of
in Seattle, and no one was able to come up
with a single photo from that era. So you know
that digging was a It was a big part of
(30:48):
the job, and it was great when you found stuff.
But there'll always be frustrations of shoot like I wish
I had. You know, Thurston Moore's talking about their first
show in New York and it sounds so incredible. There's
just no documentation of it that I have been able
to find. It doesn't mean it's not out there, it's
just like, you know, it could be in a box somewhere,
(31:11):
but I didn't find it.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Well, I think you're gonna find more so now that
the McDonald brothers have corrupted you forever in this life
of being a music documentary and what's up your sleeve next?
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Ye know, people I've gotten asked that a bunch I
don't know. Part of me just feels like, I think, uh, this.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Could be it. You know, it could be like, come on,
it'd be like.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
You know, Charles Lawton directs Night of the Hunter and
that's it. That's his only movie you ever directed. He
just you know he's got to that's a thousand, right.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
It's just like.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
I'm a bit spoiled because I like those guys so much,
you know.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Like they're they're good people.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
They're so smart, they're so fun funny, they're so fun
to be around.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
So they're great.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
They're only makes the great protagonists for a movie. But
the process was just really pleasant. When I would ask them, hey,
could you maybe connect me to Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth,
Like great, you know, get me on a text thread
with Kim Gordon.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Whatever I needed.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Whenever I needed an intro to someone, they were happy
to do it. And even now as the movie's coming out,
it's like, hey, you know, you guys the Las Vegas screening,
they want us to be there in person.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Like cool, let's road trip to Las Vegas together. So
they're so.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Engaged and cooperative, and they were okay with me saying
to them like, hey, this is my movie. You guys
don't have final cut. You don't really have say I'm
going to make the movie. Just know, my intention in
doing this is I love you this band. I'm not
trying to, you know, do some kind of takedown. I'm
just trying to make you guys better known. But I'm
(32:56):
going to do that my way, and I may include
some stuff that you don't particularly love.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
And they were like, we get it.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
You got to make your movie to the The experience
of working with them has been so great that it's
hard for me to think of another, you know, and
obviously I could make another documentary that's not a music documentary,
but in terms of just making another music documentary, like
there's something about making one about a band where they're
still alive, you know, like where it's not talking about
(33:26):
someone who's passed and it's got to all be archival footage.
Something great about having the people just there to tell
you their story. And you know, I was thinking of
a band I love this much where I think I
would like the people, because there's a lot of music
I like made by people who I probably really wouldn't
want to spend time with. And then on top of that,
(33:49):
you got to find a band that doesn't already have
a documentary, you know, and.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
So it's kind of hard at this point.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It's not like there are no plans and I still
still you know, i have a day job as a
TV writer, and I've got a pilot that I'm hoping
is going to go and I'm going to get to make.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
So there's that. But but on the other hand, I feel.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Like I learned so much about how to do this,
and I would love to put that knowledge, you know,
into use. I think it would go a lot smoother
the second time, because I just there's so many things
I did out of just complete ignorance of what I
was doing, and now I think I know a little
bit better. I'm sure it's the kind of thing where,
(34:27):
you know, I always say, like writing pilots or whatever,
each each script you write, you have to learn how
to write that script. It's not like you're ever at
a point like I know how to write, so I'm
going to write this thing and I know how to
write it.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
Like, no, you don't know how to write.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
This story, and you have to learn how to write
that particular story. And so I'm sure any movie you make,
any documentary, it's like you have to learn how to
make that documentary.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
But certain basic things about how it's done.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I now know, and it would probably go a little
bit smoother, so we'll see. It's just, you know, it's
you have to be so interesting in the subject to
do this, And luckily I'm still just as interested, uh
in in these guys in this in this band. I'm
just sort of endlessly amused and fascinated by them.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
And it's also, as.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
You sort of pointed out, I think talking them it
is a bit of you get a bit of a history.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Of Los Angeles and Los Angeles. You know, I love the.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
City so much, you know, right, you know, as we're talking,
it's it's a very rough time for la that we're
all going through. But it's also a reminder of just
like how much I do love It's not my it's
not my hometown, it's my adopted town, but but I
love it and I'm and I think there's you know,
the history.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Gets erased here and a whole ton of history.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Just got wiped off the map. But there's so much
fascinating stuff. So you know the beginnings of the Red
Cross story, which is like whole neighborhoods being destroyed to
build freeways. You know, that's been forgot, and everyone drives
on these freeways, no one thinks about what was what
was cleared to make room for them, and how it
was done, and just eminent domain taking people's houses and
(36:10):
in some cases just like picking them up and moving
them somewhere else. And what it was like for Jeff
and Steve to be the last inhabited house in their
neighborhood where every other house had been torn down or moved,
you know, things like that. There's just a million, like
great La stories, and so that was really fun because
(36:30):
telling their story you have to tell a lot of
the story of Los Angeles over the last you know,
four or five decades, and so I loved I loved
that about it too. So I don't know, you know,
I think it will be just like this was just
this sort of moment of inspiration of like I want
(36:51):
to see this, like I wanted to see this movie,
and that's always the best. And when you're making something
because it's you just want to see it, that's always
the best. And so it's why I'll often at these
screenings be like I'm just gonna sit and check the
sound and picture and then I'm gonna go, and then
I'm like, wait a minute, now, the movie's over. I
just sat through the whole thing, you know, because it's
(37:13):
the movie I wanted to see. And so that's what
needs to happen, is I have to think of like,
oh my god, I wish I could see that, but
it doesn't exist. So I guess I'll have to make
it like that feeling will come with something else, and
you know, hopefully I'll make another one. But for right now,
I'm just trying to get as many eyes on this
one and get people to see it and make them
(37:36):
some new fans and just you know, hopefully you know,
get people who are it's okay if you don't know them,
it's okay if you haven't heard of them.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
I think it's I think it's still a good time.
It's really a good time.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
And by the way, I cannot imagine what that ride
to Las Vegas with you guys going to the Punk
Rock Museum was, Like I'm just like laughing so much
inside about the thought of that.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
That must have been a riot as well.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Can I could just say that we've spent probably a
good hour and a half talking about Martha Stewart, just
you know, just to give you a sense of you know,
like what kinds of topics are are discussed.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
That's great, I love it.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Congratulations Andrew. Everybody should check it out. It's going to
be available on various platforms right for a while.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, right now, it's like we're doing I mean, it
is so much like a sort of indie band tour,
like the rollout of this of this film, which I
think is just appropriate. But yeah, red crossfilm dot Com
has all the screenings listed and we're adding more all
the time. So the best thing is to go there
(38:43):
and just sign up for the emails and check back
every now and then, because you know, things, things get added,
and they're getting added in some cases just due to
a demand of fans like getting in touch and saying like, hey,
you know, we think we could promote a screening here,
and so so yeah, we're gonna be doing that for
the next couple of months, and then it will live
(39:06):
at that red crossfilm dot com website and be available
to rent or buy, you know, directly from there. And
and beyond that, I think once it's there exclusively for
a period of time, you'll be able to rent it
on your Apple and Amazon and all those kinds of
(39:27):
places and then we'll see you know, I hope that
down the road there will be a Netflix or whatever
who wants to you know, buy the film, to put
it to make it available to screen for free. But
you know that I think will depend on how much
word of mouth is built from these theatrical screenings and
and and that you know, it's it's a challenge to
(39:50):
you know, pitch this movie to a Netflix or whatever
where people might not have heard of the band, like
what and and a lot of people don't get it
until they see it.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
It's just like you know, I say, like, you don't
need to know them, you don't, you really don't. Like
just I guarantee it's it's going to be a good time.
And so I think that word of mouth, every little
bit of word of mouth, is going to help the cause.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
And what I like too, I do think people the
movie makes people happy.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
You know, it's just you come out, you smile through
most of it, and you come out in a good
mood and there's no tragic ending, and you know, this
is just yeah, it's not the typical rock and roll
success story, but it's a total rock and roll success
story because they're still going and making amazing music and
playing and bringing joy to people. And so I think
(40:43):
in what feels like some dark times like the movies,
is it's fun.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
It puts me in a good mood. Still, so same here,
same here, without a doubt.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Congratulations Andrew Raich on it for being on Born in
a Scent The Red Cross Story. What a blast, and
thanks for being on Taking a Walk.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
I really appreciate it. It was great to talk to you bus,
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a
Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends
and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking
a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your podcasts.
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I had a sense of how much other musicians respect
to them, but the extent of it, I don't think
I realized, you know, so many of these you know,
people from household name bands. When I reached out and like, hey,
would you be, they were just like absolutely, like I
love Red Cross and and you know the you know,
(00:22):
there are people I didn't even get to, but you know,
Dave Davies from The Kinks is like a fan. I mean,
it just goes pretty wide, and I'm still discovering people
that I had no idea were Red Cross fans.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast. Thanks for checking
out the podcast, and check out the Music Save Me podcast,
produced by Buzznight Media Productions and hosted by Lynn Hoffman. Today,
buzz Night speaks with Andrew Reich, the director behind the
documentary Born Innocent, The Red Cross Story. If you missed
(00:56):
Jeffrey and Stephen McDonald on our previous episode of this post,
to check that one out, there really something. Andrew is
no stranger to the entertainment world, having made his mark
as an emming winning television writer and executive producer for
the hit show Friends. Here's Andrew Reich with buzznight on
taking a Walk.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Well, Andrew, thanks for being on Taking a Walk. It's
really a pleasure to.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Have you on. Oh I'm so, I'm so excited to
be here. Thanks buzz.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
So it is called taking a walk, as you know,
and I do want to ask you the question, which
is if you could take a walk with anybody living
or dead, doesn't have to be a music figure, but
it could be who would you like it to be
and where would you take that walk?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, I feel like I cheated a little bit because
I listened to the episode you did with Think of
Jeff and Ce from Red Cross, So I knew this
question was coming.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
And I was like thinking about it, and I'm going
I was like, you know, David Bowie or like Iggy Pop.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I always had this feeling like that I would get
along with Iggy, like if we ever could meet, like
I felt like I feel like we would, you know.
And then this is and then I was really thinking
about it because and this is gonna seem like such
a sort of lamem in a way. But but like
walking through Hollywood with Jeff and Steve McDonald and hearing
them just tell me stories about all the stuff that
(02:23):
used to be there and the like the crazy adventures
they got into, like on every block of Hollywood Boulevard
and that I'm like, I think as much time as
I've spent with them, that would probably be the best.
That'd probably the most fun fun walk I could take,
because there's an infinite number of stories those guys have.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
And uh, and.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
It's funny because I was like, well, I could make
that happen like that, you know, walking walking with David
Bowie through London or whatever is impossible, but and as
cool as that would be, or with Iggy through you know,
Detroit or something like, it might just be walking through
Hollywood with Jeff and Steve McDonald.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Oh. I think it'd be great. I would absolutely love it.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And you know, one of the great things about them
is the rabbit holes that conversations go down with them.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
It's just it's incredible. It's so much fun.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yes, yeah, infinite, infinite rabbit holes to go down.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
So tell me how you got inspired to make your
directorial debut.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
It is your director's correct debut with Born Innocent The
Red Cross Story.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
You know, it was never a.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Goal of mine to make a documentary. It was never
an aspiration or anything. It really was just, you know,
been a fan of Red Cross since I was in
high school, since nineteen eighty four, which was, you know,
the first time I really heard them, which was their
teen Babes from Monsanto EP, which I got because I
(04:02):
was like this punk rock kid in New Jersey who
had become a DJ on my public high school radio station,
which a friend the other like punk kid in my school,
and I did really just so we could get free records.
We thought like, hey, you know, we get our FCC licenses,
we get this radio show, we can like get the
letterhead and we can write to these little record labels
(04:24):
and maybe they'll send us free records. And it worked
like so well, and then Teen Babes just came in
a package one day, and it was really not like
the other stuff I was listening to at the time,
which was just mostly pretty you know, minor threat, bad
brains inspired, speedy hardcore, and I didn't know any.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Of the songs. They're all covers pretty except.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
For one, but I didn't know any of them because
I didn't listen to Kiss, I didn't listen to The Stones,
you know. I really the first music I paid attention
to was punk rock and then hardcore.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
But there was something about that record.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
That I'd just loved so much, and then that just
started this kind of lifelong fandom of this of this
band and all the permutations, as different as every record was,
I just loved all of them and always just found
them more interesting than the rest of the groups of
the scene that they came out of, Like you know,
whatever I loved.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I loved the Circle Jerks.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
That was my first concert I ever saw, but they
weren't as interesting to me as Red Cross. And so
lifelong fan, and you know, moved to LA in nineteen
ninety and got to see them.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
And and just felt and.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
In later years, you know, we saw a show like
ten years ago and it's just like this band, this
is the ultimate LA band. Really when you think about it,
like every other LA band connects to Red Cross in
some way. You know, it's going back to whatever, to
the Beach Boys, like they're both you know, bands of
brothers from Hawthorne to whatever. You know, the Runaways, the Germs,
(05:58):
the Go Gos, the Bengal Jane, Red Hot, Chili Peppers,
you name it.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
Like there's gonna be there's gonna be.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Some connection to Red Cross, and so I was sort
of having that thought in my mind. And then I
heard Steve MacDonald tell this incredible story of this sort
of abduction that happened to him when he was young
on this other podcast and this turned out a punk
podcast that Damian Abraham does, And I heard that story
and I told my wife about it. I was just
(06:25):
like recounting the story, and I was like, someone needs
to make a documentary about this band, like it would
just make such a good documentary, And she said, well,
why don't you do it? And I just, you know,
I just started thinking, like, you know, maybe this isn't
as crazy as an I did, as as it sounds.
It ust it's just like, you know, I'm not a
(06:46):
director or documentary filmmaker, but I've been a writer in
TV for twenty five years or so, so you know,
I can tell stories.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
And I did have these mutual friends, so I knew could.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Introduce me to the band, and I don't know, I
just sort of like made my pitch to them, which
they responded to, and then it was just a process
of figuring out how to do it. But I think
what helped is just this long time fandom and not
just of them, but of all the other musical worlds
(07:16):
that they were a part of. So everyone I interviewed
I could talk to I think musicians and music people's
sense like are you really a music person?
Speaker 4 (07:25):
And with everyone they you know, I.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Know, I've been an obsessive for long enough that any
of these people I met quickly got a sense of, Okay,
this guy kind of knows what he's talking about. And
when they were at a loss, like they can't remember,
like wait, you know whatever, who was the who played
drums for this band?
Speaker 4 (07:48):
Like often I would know that. And there's just that.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Language right that you know, you know you're a music person,
you know when you find someone who speaks the language.
And so yeah, So that was how I just sort
of stumbled into this thing, which is, you know, taking
up the last like eight or nine years of my
life and has been the most fun rewarding thing probably
I've ever done.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Really all Right, but tell me how your experience as
a TV writer and producer, particularly your work on Friends,
how it influenced and prepared you for the work on
this documentary.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Well, I mean I think that knowing Red Cross and
knowing Jeff and Steve not personally knowing them, but knowing
them via you know, reading interviews and fanzines and you know,
YouTube clips. I knew they were really funny, and I
think it was part of what drew me. I was
just like, a movie about these guys has the potential
to really be funny because they're just they just are
(08:47):
naturally funny people, and so in any you know, I've
tried writing dramas over the years, but it just never
feels right, like I just want the laughs, like I
just you know, there's something about writing comedy where it's
a it's very clear whether you got the answer right.
You know, it's like did the audience laugh. If you did,
(09:10):
then that was correct, you wrote it correctly, right. So
so I think I was drawn to this because I
sensed that this movie could be funny.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
It's not exclusively funny.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
There's dark moments in it, and there's you know, there's
heartfelt moments.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
But but I think if I didn't.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Feel like the movie could be funny, it wouldn't have
have been interesting to me and what I had to
So there are a couple of things. You know, you
write network TV, you've got very strict time guidelines for
how long something can be. You know, it's like you,
this thing is gonna have you when you're talking about
a network sitcom, it's gonna have to be about twenty
(09:49):
one and a half minutes.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Like, whether you like it or not. It's even gotten
shorter now probably, But.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And so you learn to cut things that you really
love and just get over it, you know, not be
too sentimental about it, and you know, I love this
joke or this scene, but it's got to go. And
so I think that helped me once I decided with
making this based on seeing some other music documentaris I
thought just overstayed their welcome. I was just like, this
(10:15):
movie is gonna be under ninety minutes, because I was
just sort of fast forwarding in time to imagining this
movie living on a streaming service somewhere and some music
documented a music fan coming across it, not knowing Redcup
Red Crosses, but maybe seeing like wait, okay, there's members
of Pearl Jam and the Go Gos and Black Flag
(10:36):
and Soundgarden, and you know, like, huh, this seems like
maybe it would be interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
How long is it? Oh, it's under ninety minutes. I'll
check that out. Whereas if it's like, wait, it's two
hours and twenty minutes. Forget it.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna spend that much time
on a band I've never heard of. So I just
had this, you know, I was thinking about that imaginary
viewer going like, huh, eighty nine minutes. I'll yeah, I'm
gonna check this out. And I know once they had
a feeling, once they started it, they would get sucked in.
So I was just like, it's got to be under
ninety minutes. And that involves cutting a lot of stuff
out that I really love. But I think that training
(11:11):
of being a sitcom writer helps train you.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
And then the other thing was just it was frustrating
because I wanted to have.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
The movie just be told by the interviewees and the
archival footage, not have a narrator, not have a lot
of text on the screen telling you the story, just
telling it just through soundbites of the people I interviewed.
And then so there's times where you're just like, well,
(11:40):
I wish I could write, you know, my instinct would
be to write a punchline or a joke or whatever,
but you can't do that.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
You have what you have.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
But I learned, Oh, the images contrasted with the audio
can something.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
You can get it laugh.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
That way, And so it was this sort of new
comedic language of learning through the editing. And people see
the film, I think we'll better understand discovering. Okay, I
can just I can find a new language of comedy
sort of in these editing techniques. And so when I
(12:19):
watch it with an audience and I see where the
laughs fall, it's just like, Okay, that worked. You know,
I just figured out a different way that's not exactly writing,
but is a kind of writing. So and the timing
of that is again something that I've learned over just
many years of doing TV. You know, half hour comedy
is you know, timing is so precise. Like I've sat
(12:42):
in lots of editing rooms, editing shows, and it's just
like the cut has to go like right there. If
we're a few frames early or late, it's no longer funny.
It's like right there is where the cut has to happen.
And so when I was working with my editor, there
was a lot of that same thing, like, no, we
have to cut here and that's where that'll produce a laugh.
But if we let it linger a little bit longer.
(13:04):
Suddenly it's not going to be funny. So I think
that timing, that editing timing, you know, that was supponed
over years of being a comedy writer. Really did you
know was helpful?
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And was reassured because I whin it's its like I
don't know what I'm doing, I have no idea, and
then it was like, wait a minute, I kind of do.
It's just a little bit different, but some of the skills, uh.
And the experience does apply. It comes across, it's it's legitimate.
It has an amazing flow to it. It keeps you engaged.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
And wanting, wanting more of it. I have to ask you.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
The McDonald brothers talked about their parents, who are such
an instrumental part of, you know, of their life and
part of the documentary. And they talked about the the
bickering nature.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Of the parents as well.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Uh, they which they I believe said that the parents
have mastered the art of bickering. Did you witness this firsthand?
Speaker 4 (14:07):
You know, maybe a little there wasn't you know? That
interview with the parents, which is such a key part
of the.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Film, took me a while to get you know, it
was years of sort of saying to Jeff and Steve, hey,
could do you think I could talk to your parents?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
You think?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
And they're just like putting me off and putting me off,
and I think they were worried about them doing it,
you know, not wanting to do it. They're you know,
somewhat shy, and you know, I just felt it was
really important, you know, especially in terms of this sort
of abduction story that I'm going to keep hinting at
(14:45):
with and try not.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
To spoil for viewers.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And so they were quite nervous in that interview for sure,
and you know, you do what you can. But I
certainly didn't start the interview like let's talk about when
Steve got kidnapped, you know.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
It was just like, let's talk about.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Happier things and plentier things and talk about the grandkids
and trying to get them at ease, you know. But
they were not at ease. They you know, they were
not really comfortable being on camera. I think I kept
having to tell Terry their dad, like that that fidgeting
thing you're doing is we're hearing that.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
You know, the mics are picking up this.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Like fidgety thing that you're you're doing and and and
there were things like that, but ultimately, you know, you
do get a real sense of who the who they
are and that they're just these you know, kind of
souls of the earth, working class people who were good
parents and not checked out. And you know, yeah, their
(15:45):
kids ran wild a little bit, but not totally. They
always had this sort of loving, you know, family to
go back to. And maybe there was a little bit
with the two of them of of of bickering back
and forth, but not like Jeff and Steve.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
You know, there was way.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
More big that I captured in the interviews with Jeff
and Steve then with Janet and Terry, so I didn't
see as much of that. A few you know, there's
a there's a moment in the film where you know,
they're going through all these Red Cross T shirts that
they've collected over the years, and Terry, their dad's it's
(16:19):
like it's a good shirt. Maybe I'll wear it, and
it's like, no, no, you will not. So there was
a few moments like that where you you know, you
see that that dynamic, but no, they weren't really at
each other, and you know, and I did make them
relive the worst, the worst months of their life, you know,
that time when Steve was gone and they had no idea.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Where he was or alive or dead or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
You know, it's a traumatic thing that I was asking
them to really, you know, go back and relive, which
was not fun for for anyone. But they finally did
see the movie. They hadn't seen it until just a
few weeks ago. They came to the santam A screening
that we did, and I was really nervous, you know,
(17:02):
to have them there and finally see it and what
they were going to think. And I talked to them
after and they they loved the movie, and you know,
they were all good with their appearances in it, and
so that was really a relief.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
And regrettably, I had so much hysterical laughter from me
in my episode with the Brothers that I did not
really touch on the kidnapping.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
I apologize. So I'm glad you're.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Coming, because I just I wanted to. But we were
clearly going in this other direction of euphoria that I
just couldn't resist, you know.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
I get it.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, I was talking about divine and whatever. Yeah, you know,
and it's okay, It's like I.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
Don't wanna.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
It's an important part of the story, obviously important part
of the story, and yet you know it's not in
the trailer. I just didn't want to be exploitative about it.
It is important, it had to be told.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
A lot of.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
People who are fans of the band didn't know the story,
just like I didn't until, you know, probably ten years ago.
But so it's understandable you guys were having too much
fun to talk about, you know, unpleasant things like that.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
So what as a fan did you learn ultimately in
the process of doing this about Red Cross that you
didn't know?
Speaker 4 (18:20):
I mean, there are there there are little things like
I had I had never seen that Rock Against Drugs
MTV spot that Jeff did with Vicky Peterson from the
Bengals when they were dating, which is.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Just this incredible like bit of footage that I could
not believe when I saw it. So there's there are
little things like that. But I probably mostly what I learned,
they were always kind of Jeff and Steve McDonald to me,
this this entity, you know, Jeff and Steve, and I
didn't quite have the sense of how very different they
(18:53):
are and just their personalities are are.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
So completely different.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I mean, they have so much in common, but they're
completely different people, and so I think that was the
main thing, was really getting to know them and the roles,
the different roles that they play in the band. And
and I think by the end of the film, I
from lots of people that they really do feel like, Okay,
we feel like we know these guys, and we get
(19:20):
their dynamic, the sibling dynamic, and it's familiar to a
lot of people, you know, who have siblings. And that was,
you know, the main thing that I think I really learned,
and becoming friends with each of them, you know, you know,
the friendships are sort of very different because they're such
different people, and so I think it really was the
(19:44):
distinct personalities where I really just thought of them as
this total unit growing up listening to them. That was
the main thing that I took away. And I think,
and I guess too, like I had a sense of
how how much other musicians respected them, but the extent
(20:07):
of it, I don't think I realized you know, so
many of these you know, people from household name bands.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
When I reached out and like.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Hey, would you be they were just like absolutely, like
I love Red Cross and and you know, these you know,
there are people I didn't even get to get to,
but you know, Dave Davies from the Kinks is like
a fan. I mean, it just goes pretty wide. And
I'm still discovering people that I had no idea were
(20:34):
Red Cross fans are, you know, I said from the beginning,
like even the Kickstar material, and like they're always been
the sort of secret handshake band among real sort of
music obsessives. And and but the extent of that, how
the Red Cross fans kind of come out of the
woodwork is really cool for men that never sold a
(20:57):
ton of records or you know, had any hits, Like
they've got fans in all kinds of places.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
We'll be right back with more of the Taken a
Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Can you talk about a couple of the key interviews
you did with the musicians and how they felt about
the impact that Red Cross made on them, because there's
a bunch of them, but a single a few of
them out.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I mean, I.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Guess the easiest to talk to is just the Seattle
grunge scene. Pretty Much everyone from that scene was a
Red Cross fan, and they were very important to that movement,
and I think it does surprise a lot of people
(21:52):
because they don't exactly sound like a grunge band. But
when I talked to you know, Mark R and Steve
Turner uh from Mud Honey and you know, and and
Green River before that, you know, the beginnings of that
grunge movement was you know, it was Green River and
(22:14):
the Melvins and Malfunction and there you know fewbends that.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Those guys really do, say, like Red Cross.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Uh, teen Babes from Monsanto and Eurotica particularly, Uh. You
know what that movement came out of was there were
like the punk rock kids, you know, who were big
Black Flag fans and and and metal kids, and the
coming together of those two groups.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
Is what sort of begat grunge.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
And they all say, you know that teen Babes from
Monsanto and Eurotica were records that both sides could agree on.
So you're at a party and there's this commingling starting
to happen of these two sides which had been sort
of kept separate and at odds, and they're starting to
hang out together.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
But you got to decide, like what do you play
at those parties?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It was like Red Cross like the metal kids, the
punk kids were like, we all like Red Cross, and
so when they came to Seattle to play in nineteen
eighty seven, that to me to talk.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Into these guys.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
There are these moments, like you know, when the sex
Pistols play at the Manchester Free Trade Hall and everyone that's.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Going to go on to form bands from.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Like the Buzzcocks to the Smiths are at that show
and it has this big bang kind of effect. I
think that Red Cross concert in nineteen eighty seven at
the Crescent ball Room in Tacoma is another one of
those moments where everyone's in the room. So Kurt Cobain's there,
and you know, the opening bands are Green River and
(23:52):
Sound Garden and Malfunction and so those are the roots
that will you know, obviously those bands, but also Pearl
Jam and you.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Know, so so every major figure that's.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Going to be in this huge thing that's going to
change rock music in the nineties, they're all there and
they're all agreeing, like this band is incredible.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
And I think the guys who started subpop will say
that that Red Cross was one and Neurotica was one
of the things that that inspired them to start sub
pop records, So you know, I think that that's a
huge contribution that few people know about, and you know,
(24:37):
you know, so that's one. I mean, I think there
are others. I think each phase of Red Cross's career
they've inspired different groups of bands. You know, obviously their
first incarnation, you know, their drummer becomes the lead singer
of Black Flag, and their guitarist starts the Circle Jerks,
you know, so you know, they're a big part of
(24:58):
that Southern California hardcore, the inception of Southern California. It
wasn't even called hardcore when they started. They're just thinking
of themselves as a punk rock band, but they're there
right at that moment that Southern California hardcore starts, which
you know goes on to have a huge impact on
music as well. And I do think even I wasn't
(25:21):
able to document this as much. But I think they
were an influence on the britpop movement too, because in
the early nineties they played a lot in the UK,
and I think just the way they looked got copied
by bands like Swede and The Verb and and I
think their sound did have an influence on paulp and
(25:43):
Blur and Oasis in those bands, But it's something that
I can't you know, I wasn't able to get the
proof by talking to those bands, but I do think
that time they spent really gigging a lot in the UK.
The sound they had at the time I hear and
a lot of the bread pop bands.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
You know what's also fabulous about the documentary, it's not
only the story of Red Cross and Born Innocent, but
it really takes you through a moment in time that
some of the things I remember and so I don't
remember in terms of the way that you.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Captivate us with with that.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
What was the job like with archival footage and finding it?
Speaker 4 (26:26):
How long did that take? I mean it took the
whole you know.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I guess we could say the movie took like seven
years to make, and that whole time I was always
seeking out more you know, footage.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
I started with a big box of VHS tapes that
Jeff MacDonald gave me. I got another box from the
guy who runs the Red Cross website, Robert Hecker, their
longtime guitarist, gave me a box. So there's you know,
so that was a lot of material, and I had to,
you know, get a VCR and go through each those
tapes and see what's on each of them.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
And then it was just sort of putting the word out.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
However, I could to see who else out there, what
other fans maybe taped the show at some point, and
there were incredible discoveries like all throughout. I mean, the
good thing about it taking so long to make was
I was finding really great stuff, like right up until
the end, and stuff that if I had made it quicker,
(27:28):
I wouldn't wouldn't be in the film. So when you know,
Greg Hetson, their first guitar player who started the Circle.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
Jerks and played in Bad Religion, and I was asking him.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I was like, hey, you know, for the part where
I'm talking about the formation of the band, like it'd
be cool if if I could get like a high
school graduation photo or something like do you have something
like that? And he was like, you know what I've
got is my dad came to our first show at
the Hong Kong Cafe and he took a bunch of
pictures of there's slides in a box somewhere.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Would you be interested in that? And I was like,
are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Like, there's a photographic record in color of the first
Red Cross show, and it took me a while to
get him to dig him up and scan them. But
so in the film there's these incredible photos of, you know,
of their first show that you never see color photos
of that early punk roxy. They're all black and white.
All the main photographers were shooting black and white.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
So that was like a crazy cool thing.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And there was also at some point I was like
talking to this company that licenses a lot of public
access music shows and stuff like that, and I was
talking about this footage of a later concert that had
been shot by this French TV show, and I was like, hey,
I also have the Red Cross's first TV appearance.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Would you be interested in that? I was like, what
are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
And I guess they had been on New Wave Theater,
which is this kind of you know, famous public access
show in LA was started on public Access and then
went to the USA network where a lot of underground
bands played, and it's the only existing footage of a
lot of these bands. But I had no idea that
Red Cross had been on it, and no one had
(29:09):
ever seen this sort of the guys hadn't seen it,
and it was at this early moment before they made
the first full length, the Born Innocent album, and it's
professionally shot and it looks great, and you know, so
that's in the film.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
There was another incredible discovery.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
So you know, part of the job of being a
music documentary filmmaker is being an archaeologist. That's a big
part of it. The archaeology part of it is is
big and a band like this, an underground band started
in the eighties, Like, it's a hard job. They weren't
(29:45):
on MTV. You know, there's not a lot of professionally
shot stuff. It was like I watched that Wham documentary,
which I thoroughly enjoyed, but I was like, oh my god,
they have so much TV footage to choose from, Like
this band was so well documented by professional camera people.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
I didn't have any of that.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
You know, there's there's there's a few professional music videos
from their brief major label moment, but the early days,
it's really hard to find anything. And even you know
that Crescent Ballroom show and Tacoma I'm talking about it
was a major moment. I still haven't been able to
find a single photograph, bit of video anything from that show.
I'm just and it kills me because I know it's
(30:27):
out there. There had to have been someone in that
crowd with like an instematic, you know, who took a
few shots. But I asked everyone I could think of
in Seattle, and no one was able to come up
with a single photo from that era. So you know
that digging was a It was a big part of
(30:48):
the job, and it was great when you found stuff.
But there'll always be frustrations of shoot like I wish
I had. You know, Thurston Moore's talking about their first
show in New York and it sounds so incredible. There's
just no documentation of it that I have been able
to find. It doesn't mean it's not out there, it's
just like, you know, it could be in a box somewhere,
(31:11):
but I didn't find it.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Well, I think you're gonna find more so now that
the McDonald brothers have corrupted you forever in this life
of being a music documentary and what's up your sleeve next?
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Ye know, people I've gotten asked that a bunch I
don't know. Part of me just feels like, I think, uh, this.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Could be it. You know, it could be like, come on,
it'd be like.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
You know, Charles Lawton directs Night of the Hunter and
that's it. That's his only movie you ever directed. He
just you know he's got to that's a thousand, right.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
It's just like.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
I'm a bit spoiled because I like those guys so much,
you know.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Like they're they're good people.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
They're so smart, they're so fun funny, they're so fun
to be around.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
So they're great.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
They're only makes the great protagonists for a movie. But
the process was just really pleasant. When I would ask them, hey,
could you maybe connect me to Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth,
Like great, you know, get me on a text thread
with Kim Gordon.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Whatever I needed.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Whenever I needed an intro to someone, they were happy
to do it. And even now as the movie's coming out,
it's like, hey, you know, you guys the Las Vegas screening,
they want us to be there in person.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Like cool, let's road trip to Las Vegas together. So
they're so.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Engaged and cooperative, and they were okay with me saying
to them like, hey, this is my movie. You guys
don't have final cut. You don't really have say I'm
going to make the movie. Just know, my intention in
doing this is I love you this band. I'm not
trying to, you know, do some kind of takedown. I'm
just trying to make you guys better known. But I'm
(32:56):
going to do that my way, and I may include
some stuff that you don't particularly love.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
And they were like, we get it.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
You got to make your movie to the The experience
of working with them has been so great that it's
hard for me to think of another, you know, and
obviously I could make another documentary that's not a music documentary,
but in terms of just making another music documentary, like
there's something about making one about a band where they're
still alive, you know, like where it's not talking about
(33:26):
someone who's passed and it's got to all be archival footage.
Something great about having the people just there to tell
you their story. And you know, I was thinking of
a band I love this much where I think I
would like the people, because there's a lot of music
I like made by people who I probably really wouldn't
want to spend time with. And then on top of that,
(33:49):
you got to find a band that doesn't already have
a documentary, you know, and.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
So it's kind of hard at this point.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It's not like there are no plans and I still
still you know, i have a day job as a
TV writer, and I've got a pilot that I'm hoping
is going to go and I'm going to get to make.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
So there's that. But but on the other hand, I feel.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Like I learned so much about how to do this,
and I would love to put that knowledge, you know,
into use. I think it would go a lot smoother
the second time, because I just there's so many things
I did out of just complete ignorance of what I
was doing, and now I think I know a little
bit better. I'm sure it's the kind of thing where,
(34:27):
you know, I always say, like writing pilots or whatever,
each each script you write, you have to learn how
to write that script. It's not like you're ever at
a point like I know how to write, so I'm
going to write this thing and I know how to
write it.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
Like, no, you don't know how to write.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
This story, and you have to learn how to write
that particular story. And so I'm sure any movie you make,
any documentary, it's like you have to learn how to
make that documentary.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
But certain basic things about how it's done.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I now know, and it would probably go a little
bit smoother, so we'll see. It's just, you know, it's
you have to be so interesting in the subject to
do this, And luckily I'm still just as interested, uh
in in these guys in this in this band. I'm
just sort of endlessly amused and fascinated by them.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
And it's also, as.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
You sort of pointed out, I think talking them it
is a bit of you get a bit of a history.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Of Los Angeles and Los Angeles. You know, I love the.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
City so much, you know, right, you know, as we're talking,
it's it's a very rough time for la that we're
all going through. But it's also a reminder of just
like how much I do love It's not my it's
not my hometown, it's my adopted town, but but I
love it and I'm and I think there's you know,
the history.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Gets erased here and a whole ton of history.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Just got wiped off the map. But there's so much
fascinating stuff. So you know the beginnings of the Red
Cross story, which is like whole neighborhoods being destroyed to
build freeways. You know, that's been forgot, and everyone drives
on these freeways, no one thinks about what was what
was cleared to make room for them, and how it
was done, and just eminent domain taking people's houses and
(36:10):
in some cases just like picking them up and moving
them somewhere else. And what it was like for Jeff
and Steve to be the last inhabited house in their
neighborhood where every other house had been torn down or moved,
you know, things like that. There's just a million, like
great La stories, and so that was really fun because
(36:30):
telling their story you have to tell a lot of
the story of Los Angeles over the last you know,
four or five decades, and so I loved I loved
that about it too. So I don't know, you know,
I think it will be just like this was just
this sort of moment of inspiration of like I want
(36:51):
to see this, like I wanted to see this movie,
and that's always the best. And when you're making something
because it's you just want to see it, that's always
the best. And so it's why I'll often at these
screenings be like I'm just gonna sit and check the
sound and picture and then I'm gonna go, and then
I'm like, wait a minute, now, the movie's over. I
just sat through the whole thing, you know, because it's
(37:13):
the movie I wanted to see. And so that's what
needs to happen, is I have to think of like,
oh my god, I wish I could see that, but
it doesn't exist. So I guess I'll have to make
it like that feeling will come with something else, and
you know, hopefully I'll make another one. But for right now,
I'm just trying to get as many eyes on this
one and get people to see it and make them
(37:36):
some new fans and just you know, hopefully you know,
get people who are it's okay if you don't know them,
it's okay if you haven't heard of them.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
I think it's I think it's still a good time.
It's really a good time.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
And by the way, I cannot imagine what that ride
to Las Vegas with you guys going to the Punk
Rock Museum was, Like I'm just like laughing so much
inside about the thought of that.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
That must have been a riot as well.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Can I could just say that we've spent probably a
good hour and a half talking about Martha Stewart, just
you know, just to give you a sense of you know,
like what kinds of topics are are discussed.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
That's great, I love it.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Congratulations Andrew. Everybody should check it out. It's going to
be available on various platforms right for a while.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, right now, it's like we're doing I mean, it
is so much like a sort of indie band tour,
like the rollout of this of this film, which I
think is just appropriate. But yeah, red crossfilm dot Com
has all the screenings listed and we're adding more all
the time. So the best thing is to go there
(38:43):
and just sign up for the emails and check back
every now and then, because you know, things, things get added,
and they're getting added in some cases just due to
a demand of fans like getting in touch and saying like, hey,
you know, we think we could promote a screening here,
and so so yeah, we're gonna be doing that for
the next couple of months, and then it will live
(39:06):
at that red crossfilm dot com website and be available
to rent or buy, you know, directly from there. And
and beyond that, I think once it's there exclusively for
a period of time, you'll be able to rent it
on your Apple and Amazon and all those kinds of
(39:27):
places and then we'll see you know, I hope that
down the road there will be a Netflix or whatever
who wants to you know, buy the film, to put
it to make it available to screen for free. But
you know that I think will depend on how much
word of mouth is built from these theatrical screenings and
and and that you know, it's it's a challenge to
(39:50):
you know, pitch this movie to a Netflix or whatever
where people might not have heard of the band, like
what and and a lot of people don't get it
until they see it.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
It's just like you know, I say, like, you don't
need to know them, you don't, you really don't. Like
just I guarantee it's it's going to be a good time.
And so I think that word of mouth, every little
bit of word of mouth, is going to help the cause.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
And what I like too, I do think people the
movie makes people happy.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
You know, it's just you come out, you smile through
most of it, and you come out in a good
mood and there's no tragic ending, and you know, this
is just yeah, it's not the typical rock and roll
success story, but it's a total rock and roll success
story because they're still going and making amazing music and
playing and bringing joy to people. And so I think
(40:43):
in what feels like some dark times like the movies,
is it's fun.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
It puts me in a good mood. Still, so same here,
same here, without a doubt.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Congratulations Andrew Raich on it for being on Born in
a Scent The Red Cross Story. What a blast, and
thanks for being on Taking a Walk.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
I really appreciate it. It was great to talk to you bus,
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a
Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends
and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking
a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Lynn Hoffman
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