July 27, 2025 • 13 mins
In this episode of Takin A Walk , join Buzz Knight as he talks with Steve Cohen, the visionary director behind the film "And So It Goes", the amazing Billy Joel HBO project.. Steve shares insights into his creative process, the challenges and joys of directing, and the story behind this compelling movie. Whether you’re a film enthusiast or simply curious about the art of storytelling on screen, this conversation offers a behind-the-scenes look at bringing a unique vision to the career of one of our most iconic artists.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Join us for a musical journey like no other.
Speaker 3 (00:04):
Today on the Taking a Walk Podcast, I'm buzz night
to your host, and we're joined by Steve Cohen, longtime
creative director for Billy Joel and executive producer of the
new HBO documentary Billy Joel and So It Goes.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
So, whether you're a lifelong.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Fan of the piano Man or curious about the highs
and lows behind the hits, Steve brings exclusive behind the
scenes insights about the crafting of this two part film
coming up.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Next, Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Good morning, Steve, I'm honored to have you on the
Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I imagine you've taken walks over your lifetime with Billy Joel.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Can you describe that experience taking walks?
Speaker 4 (00:57):
I mean, Billy, I think I think most of the
time we were in various means of conveyance. I think
I think walking from the car to the backstage is
about as far as we end up walking together. But
we have, we have traveled a lot of miles together,
that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
The documentary is just fantastic And So It Goes. I
have to ask you, was there a point in time
that you finally, with the final cut, sat with Billy
and watched the entire thing from beginning to end.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
That's exactly what happened. Actually, say you must have got
some inside information. Basically, he really didn't want to see
anything until he thought that we felt it was right
for him to do that. The director Susan Lacy and
Jessica Levin sort of left it up to, you know,
(01:50):
me to sort of feel Billy's willingness and interest in
you know, when he wanted to sit down and do it.
I basically waited until we got to a place where
there were where it wasn't in a final cut form,
but the narrative was nailed down, and the music selections
were nailed down, and most of the visuals were in place,
(02:10):
even if some of them were temporary, and I don't know,
one afternoon, I said, well, listen, I've got both parts.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
You want to watch it?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
And he came over and it was just him and
me sitting on a couch and I will tell you,
looking out of the corner of my eye watching him
watch this film was a little bit unnerving.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
There's a lot in.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
This film that, you know, I didn't know how he
would react to, you know, emotionally. You know, he set
this thing up from the beginning by telling, you know,
the filmmakers that you know, he really didn't want to
tell his story. That he just hoped that they would
be honest and sort of instructed them to tell the truth.
And they did, and they got him to comment on
(02:52):
some some great stuff and some great memories, but also
some uncomfortable ones.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So yeah, I was, I was it relieved.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
He leaned in to the to the to the television
a couple of times, and I watched him and then
afterwards he said, well, I got to say it's a
it's a great movie, even if it wasn't about me.
So that's sort of the best compliment you could get
from an artist.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
My god, I don't picture you as a chain smoker,
but did you consider taking up chain smoking as you were?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
We both were chain smokers.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
I mean, he had his little vape with him, so
he was he was puffing pretty.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Good on it. But yeah, I uh, it was a
little bit of a nail biting.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
You know.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
It's it's interesting because Billy and I, you know, we
go back five decades and as as as good friends
and collaborators we've been for you know, all of that time.
You know, it's it's daunting when your tasks with the
responsibility of putting together a team to tell this guy's story,
and you never know, he could have thrown furniture.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
I don't know, after so.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Much resistance over the years of Billy wanting to do this,
what tip the scales in getting him to say yes, you.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Know, I don't think we ever addressed that specifically. What
I do know is that we had many offers over
the years. He had many offers over the years to
do a biography, a biopic, whatever you want to call
this this day and age of a celebrity telling their
life story, and wasn't interested. His his his standard line
(04:32):
was always, you know, my my, my life stories in
my songs, Listen to my songs, and you know.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Everything you need to know about me.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
But I think at some point we were winding down
the Madison Square Garden run.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
We knew that that was coming to an end. You know,
the future of.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Touring was, you know, sort of laid out there and
and I think at some point he just made the
turn and said, you know what, there seems to be
an interest in in in my life. These filmmakers are
the right filmmakers. HBO is the right network. You know,
let's let's do it. And I don't think that he specifically,
(05:07):
you know, flipped the switch, but I think it was
an evolution of just being comfortable to you know, let
that part of his story out. He's very happy right now.
He's got a wonderful family. He's got two young kids,
and I think that there might be something there about
wanting to you know, lay down a legacy for them.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
But I'm only guessing. I really, I really don't.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
I really don't know the inner workings of what the decision,
what made him make the decision to say yes, talk.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
About the use of archival footage which is just so
incredible and rare performances that are part of this gem,
What was the process in selecting Well.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
It was kind of surprising for me, you know, as
I said, you know, being around for this long time
is a little bit shady about how much was actually
covered over the years. You know, we weren't the kind
of band or artists or group that you know, had
everybody rolling cameras. Of course, you know, long before iPhones
and recording devices were so easy to carry around. So
(06:09):
there wasn't a lot, you know, there wasn't a lot
of that kind of footage of you know, fly on
the wall kind of stuff, a lot of home movies,
very very few home movies. And you know, Billy was
loath to be put on camera anyway. He didn't like
being filmed, he didn't like being you know, pictures taken.
So so I think I was very The big surprise
for me was how much there was.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
There was a lot over the years, collected by a
lot of other people.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
So it was going through Billy's archives, it was going
through Sony's archives, which was vast, and we had a
we had a group of people that we called, we
affectionately called the mind Hive, which are a few three,
really four really incredible Billy Joelfans that have been collecting
memorabilia for the past, you know, twenty five thirty years,
(06:56):
and they were a great resource. So, you know, it
was you know, as the narrative developed, then the visual
explanations of those pieces of the narrative became you know, identified,
and then you'd say, well, you'd really love to have
a picture of this particular interaction, and you'd find it
and sometimes you'd find ten or fifteen.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Sometimes you'd only find one.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
So it was a process, and what we're left with
now is a pretty comprehensive archive for Billy. You know,
going forward, there's a museum that there's a museum full
of stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Now.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
I particularly loved how the Philadelphia experience was covered because
in my past life one of the stations I managed
was WMMR, and it was just so great Ed Shaki
who did part time work for me for a while,
and just the integral part of ED and the station
(07:51):
and just how that came together. That was told so
wonderfully in the documentary.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well that's really you know, that's gratifying.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Look, Philadelphia for the Billy Joel world was very important
for many years we did. You know, I remember doing
shows at the Academy Music in Philadelphia very early on
that were some of the best shows he ever did.
They would expand to like three hours, and he would
do impressions and do covers and it was really a
very comfortable venue. And you know, Philadelphia was one of
(08:20):
the main cities where he broke in popularity, obviously because
of ED and WMMR and the Captain Jack things. So
it was a very It was a key pivotal moment
in Billy's career, so it had to be covered.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
The film features over one hundred and twenty Billy Joel's songs.
How did you approach the selection of the music catalog
and weaving that in?
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Well, my approach was simply to go, you know, through
the Billy Joel, through us in the Billy Joel camp,
and go to Universal on Sony and implore them to
create a structure where the filmmakers, because you could use
as much as they wanted. You know, in many case
is licensing is very expensive and in a lot of
cases and and it becomes restrictive from the creative side.
(09:07):
So what we did in the in our world was
go to our partners Universal Music Publishing and Sony and
implore them to just, you know, create a structure where
where all of the music could.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Be used if it was if it wanted to.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
And Susan Lacey and Jessica Levan both made it very
very clear that they were going to use ninety nine
percent of the music in this film was going to
be Billy Joel music. And we went in and had
instrumental versions stripped out, some vocals, of some of the
recorded tracks to use it as score, because you know,
that's it's all in.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
It's all in the.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Music, as he says many many times. So we created
a landing strip for them to be able to use
as much as they wanted, and I'm so glad they
did their songs.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
There's bits and pieces of of B and C C.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Tracks that are that never get heard, that are are
a big part of big part of the soundtrack.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Steve, what do you think the project reveals about the
pressures and the joys of a long career in music,
both for Billy and for yourself.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
I think it reveals this unique combination of life experiences
and the creation of a genius. I think I had
an analogy that I used with Susan a long time
ago about a diamond, that a diamond is created under
intense pressure and intense heat, and I believe that, you know,
out of coal and I believe are carbon atoms, and
(10:33):
I believe that Billy is very much the product of
this beautiful, brilliant, shining diamond from you know, pressure and
intense pain and intense experiences that you know gave birth
to this narrative of songs that we're blessed with, So
I think that I think that what Susan and Jessica
(10:56):
have done is point the viewer towards the origin of
the creative spark that exists in all great artists, but
in Billy's case, is sometimes underappreciated or underreported. And I
think you're going to listen to these songs after you
hear the true backstories of many of them, and hear
(11:16):
them in a completely different manner, which I think is great.
Like these songs we know for forty years, all of
a sudden are going to sound different to us because
we know the backstories. So I think that's what the
what I hope the film reveals. The other thing I
hope the film reveals is, you know, unknown parts of
Billy's story that have never been reported the very the
(11:39):
very or never been really spoken about. The early years,
his relationship with his first wife, Elizabeth and how she
became so important to the creation of the Billy Joel story,
the inspiration for a lot of those songs, and his
relationship with his father or lack of, and the Holocaust backstory.
(12:00):
I think those three things are very important, and classical
music being a prime driver in his creative process.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Steven Closing. I don't know what you could say about
Billie's how he's feeling these days, but I just want
to extend from all of the taking a Walk listeners
and the fans of Billy that he's on our mind
and we love him, and I hope he's doing well well.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Last time I spoke to him, he's doing pretty good.
I think there's a viral clip of him in New
York with some people on a petticap singing New York
state of Mind, and he, you know, interacts with them.
He just he just kind of peeked onto the Bill
Maher podcast the other day. So you know, he's looking good,
and he's you know, he's taking a walk. He's definitely
doing his physical therapy and stuff. So you know, I
(12:46):
think he's enjoying life and he's working it, you know,
getting better.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
So but yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
I'm sure everybody wants to send those good vibes.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I'm sure the good vibes are helping.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Give him our love. Steve Bravo and so it goes
on HBO. Thank you so much for all you give us.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Thank you very much. Bus great talking to you, Thanks
for listening. To this episode of the Taking a Walk podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow
us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk
is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever
you get your podcasts.
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Join us for a musical journey like no other.
Speaker 3 (00:04):
Today on the Taking a Walk Podcast, I'm buzz night
to your host, and we're joined by Steve Cohen, longtime
creative director for Billy Joel and executive producer of the
new HBO documentary Billy Joel and So It Goes.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
So, whether you're a lifelong.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Fan of the piano Man or curious about the highs
and lows behind the hits, Steve brings exclusive behind the
scenes insights about the crafting of this two part film
coming up.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Next, Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Good morning, Steve, I'm honored to have you on the
Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I imagine you've taken walks over your lifetime with Billy Joel.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Can you describe that experience taking walks?
Speaker 4 (00:57):
I mean, Billy, I think I think most of the
time we were in various means of conveyance. I think
I think walking from the car to the backstage is
about as far as we end up walking together. But
we have, we have traveled a lot of miles together,
that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
The documentary is just fantastic And So It Goes. I
have to ask you, was there a point in time
that you finally, with the final cut, sat with Billy
and watched the entire thing from beginning to end.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
That's exactly what happened. Actually, say you must have got
some inside information. Basically, he really didn't want to see
anything until he thought that we felt it was right
for him to do that. The director Susan Lacy and
Jessica Levin sort of left it up to, you know,
(01:50):
me to sort of feel Billy's willingness and interest in
you know, when he wanted to sit down and do it.
I basically waited until we got to a place where
there were where it wasn't in a final cut form,
but the narrative was nailed down, and the music selections
were nailed down, and most of the visuals were in place,
(02:10):
even if some of them were temporary, and I don't know,
one afternoon, I said, well, listen, I've got both parts.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
You want to watch it?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
And he came over and it was just him and
me sitting on a couch and I will tell you,
looking out of the corner of my eye watching him
watch this film was a little bit unnerving.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
There's a lot in.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
This film that, you know, I didn't know how he
would react to, you know, emotionally. You know, he set
this thing up from the beginning by telling, you know,
the filmmakers that you know, he really didn't want to
tell his story. That he just hoped that they would
be honest and sort of instructed them to tell the truth.
And they did, and they got him to comment on
(02:52):
some some great stuff and some great memories, but also
some uncomfortable ones.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So yeah, I was, I was it relieved.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
He leaned in to the to the to the television
a couple of times, and I watched him and then
afterwards he said, well, I got to say it's a
it's a great movie, even if it wasn't about me.
So that's sort of the best compliment you could get
from an artist.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
My god, I don't picture you as a chain smoker,
but did you consider taking up chain smoking as you were?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
We both were chain smokers.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
I mean, he had his little vape with him, so
he was he was puffing pretty.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Good on it. But yeah, I uh, it was a
little bit of a nail biting.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
You know.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
It's it's interesting because Billy and I, you know, we
go back five decades and as as as good friends
and collaborators we've been for you know, all of that time.
You know, it's it's daunting when your tasks with the
responsibility of putting together a team to tell this guy's story,
and you never know, he could have thrown furniture.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
I don't know, after so.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Much resistance over the years of Billy wanting to do this,
what tip the scales in getting him to say yes, you.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Know, I don't think we ever addressed that specifically. What
I do know is that we had many offers over
the years. He had many offers over the years to
do a biography, a biopic, whatever you want to call
this this day and age of a celebrity telling their
life story, and wasn't interested. His his his standard line
(04:32):
was always, you know, my my, my life stories in
my songs, Listen to my songs, and you know.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Everything you need to know about me.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
But I think at some point we were winding down
the Madison Square Garden run.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
We knew that that was coming to an end. You know,
the future of.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Touring was, you know, sort of laid out there and
and I think at some point he just made the
turn and said, you know what, there seems to be
an interest in in in my life. These filmmakers are
the right filmmakers. HBO is the right network. You know,
let's let's do it. And I don't think that he specifically,
(05:07):
you know, flipped the switch, but I think it was
an evolution of just being comfortable to you know, let
that part of his story out. He's very happy right now.
He's got a wonderful family. He's got two young kids,
and I think that there might be something there about
wanting to you know, lay down a legacy for them.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
But I'm only guessing. I really, I really don't.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
I really don't know the inner workings of what the decision,
what made him make the decision to say yes, talk.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
About the use of archival footage which is just so
incredible and rare performances that are part of this gem,
What was the process in selecting Well.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
It was kind of surprising for me, you know, as
I said, you know, being around for this long time
is a little bit shady about how much was actually
covered over the years. You know, we weren't the kind
of band or artists or group that you know, had
everybody rolling cameras. Of course, you know, long before iPhones
and recording devices were so easy to carry around. So
(06:09):
there wasn't a lot, you know, there wasn't a lot
of that kind of footage of you know, fly on
the wall kind of stuff, a lot of home movies,
very very few home movies. And you know, Billy was
loath to be put on camera anyway. He didn't like
being filmed, he didn't like being you know, pictures taken.
So so I think I was very The big surprise
for me was how much there was.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
There was a lot over the years, collected by a
lot of other people.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
So it was going through Billy's archives, it was going
through Sony's archives, which was vast, and we had a
we had a group of people that we called, we
affectionately called the mind Hive, which are a few three,
really four really incredible Billy Joelfans that have been collecting
memorabilia for the past, you know, twenty five thirty years,
(06:56):
and they were a great resource. So, you know, it
was you know, as the narrative developed, then the visual
explanations of those pieces of the narrative became you know, identified,
and then you'd say, well, you'd really love to have
a picture of this particular interaction, and you'd find it
and sometimes you'd find ten or fifteen.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Sometimes you'd only find one.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
So it was a process, and what we're left with
now is a pretty comprehensive archive for Billy. You know,
going forward, there's a museum that there's a museum full
of stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Now.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
I particularly loved how the Philadelphia experience was covered because
in my past life one of the stations I managed
was WMMR, and it was just so great Ed Shaki
who did part time work for me for a while,
and just the integral part of ED and the station
(07:51):
and just how that came together. That was told so
wonderfully in the documentary.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well that's really you know, that's gratifying.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Look, Philadelphia for the Billy Joel world was very important
for many years we did. You know, I remember doing
shows at the Academy Music in Philadelphia very early on
that were some of the best shows he ever did.
They would expand to like three hours, and he would
do impressions and do covers and it was really a
very comfortable venue. And you know, Philadelphia was one of
(08:20):
the main cities where he broke in popularity, obviously because
of ED and WMMR and the Captain Jack things. So
it was a very It was a key pivotal moment
in Billy's career, so it had to be covered.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
The film features over one hundred and twenty Billy Joel's songs.
How did you approach the selection of the music catalog
and weaving that in?
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Well, my approach was simply to go, you know, through
the Billy Joel, through us in the Billy Joel camp,
and go to Universal on Sony and implore them to
create a structure where the filmmakers, because you could use
as much as they wanted. You know, in many case
is licensing is very expensive and in a lot of
cases and and it becomes restrictive from the creative side.
(09:07):
So what we did in the in our world was
go to our partners Universal Music Publishing and Sony and
implore them to just, you know, create a structure where
where all of the music could.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Be used if it was if it wanted to.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
And Susan Lacey and Jessica Levan both made it very
very clear that they were going to use ninety nine
percent of the music in this film was going to
be Billy Joel music. And we went in and had
instrumental versions stripped out, some vocals, of some of the
recorded tracks to use it as score, because you know,
that's it's all in.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
It's all in the.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Music, as he says many many times. So we created
a landing strip for them to be able to use
as much as they wanted, and I'm so glad they
did their songs.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
There's bits and pieces of of B and C C.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Tracks that are that never get heard, that are are
a big part of big part of the soundtrack.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Steve, what do you think the project reveals about the
pressures and the joys of a long career in music,
both for Billy and for yourself.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
I think it reveals this unique combination of life experiences
and the creation of a genius. I think I had
an analogy that I used with Susan a long time
ago about a diamond, that a diamond is created under
intense pressure and intense heat, and I believe that, you know,
out of coal and I believe are carbon atoms, and
(10:33):
I believe that Billy is very much the product of
this beautiful, brilliant, shining diamond from you know, pressure and
intense pain and intense experiences that you know gave birth
to this narrative of songs that we're blessed with, So
I think that I think that what Susan and Jessica
(10:56):
have done is point the viewer towards the origin of
the creative spark that exists in all great artists, but
in Billy's case, is sometimes underappreciated or underreported. And I
think you're going to listen to these songs after you
hear the true backstories of many of them, and hear
(11:16):
them in a completely different manner, which I think is great.
Like these songs we know for forty years, all of
a sudden are going to sound different to us because
we know the backstories. So I think that's what the
what I hope the film reveals. The other thing I
hope the film reveals is, you know, unknown parts of
Billy's story that have never been reported the very the
(11:39):
very or never been really spoken about. The early years,
his relationship with his first wife, Elizabeth and how she
became so important to the creation of the Billy Joel story,
the inspiration for a lot of those songs, and his
relationship with his father or lack of, and the Holocaust backstory.
(12:00):
I think those three things are very important, and classical
music being a prime driver in his creative process.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Steven Closing. I don't know what you could say about
Billie's how he's feeling these days, but I just want
to extend from all of the taking a Walk listeners
and the fans of Billy that he's on our mind
and we love him, and I hope he's doing well well.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Last time I spoke to him, he's doing pretty good.
I think there's a viral clip of him in New
York with some people on a petticap singing New York
state of Mind, and he, you know, interacts with them.
He just he just kind of peeked onto the Bill
Maher podcast the other day. So you know, he's looking good,
and he's you know, he's taking a walk. He's definitely
doing his physical therapy and stuff. So you know, I
(12:46):
think he's enjoying life and he's working it, you know,
getting better.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
So but yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
I'm sure everybody wants to send those good vibes.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I'm sure the good vibes are helping.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Give him our love. Steve Bravo and so it goes
on HBO. Thank you so much for all you give us.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Thank you very much. Bus great talking to you, Thanks
for listening. To this episode of the Taking a Walk podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow
us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk
is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever
you get your podcasts.
Host
Lynn Hoffman
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