June 5, 2025 • 40 mins
Join @thebuzzknight with the author of the new book Richard Manuel: His Life and Music, from the Hawks and Bob Dylan to The Band, Stephen T Lewis. For the first time, in an official biography endorsed by his family-The Band's legendary Richard Manuel's compositions and performances are analyzed with expert commentary by this great author. You'll learn about Richard, a fearless original and an amazingly creative multi-instrumentalist.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
When you listen to Richard a lot, you know, like
anything like a fingerprint, there's things you feel that like
are his trademark roles or a little core changes or
little little melodic plays that he would use. And you
hear it and you're like, wow, you can't tell. You're like,
whose song is this? Because it certainly sounds like Richard's.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm buzz night, your host of Taking a Walk. This
is the podcast where we stroll through the stories behind
music creativity and the people who shape our culture. Today,
we're going to have on the acclaimed author Steven t Lewis.
He's got a biography that shines a long overdue spotlight
one of rock's most soulful and enigmatic voices, Richard Manuel,
(00:47):
of the band. Known for his haunting falsetto, heartfelt songwriting
and unforgettable performances, Richard Manuel helped define the sound of
an era, but his personal story has often remained in
the shadows. Stephen t Lewis spent four years delving into
Manuel's life, interviewing friends, family, and musical legends, and unearthing
(01:13):
rare photos and stories that reveal the man behind the music.
In this episode, We're going to explore what drew Stephen
to Manuel's story, the challenges and joys of capturing a
complex legacy, and why Richard's music continues to resonate with
fans and musicians alike. We welcome right now Stephen t
(01:37):
Lewis to the Taken a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Well, it's nice to sync up with Stephen t Lewis
on the Taken a Walk Podcast talking about the amazing
Richard Manuel biography. Thanks for being on.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh, thanks for having me as your guest. I certainly
appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
So I do start out the podcast, It's Taken a Walk,
asking the question if someone could take a walk with
someone living or dead, who might it be. I believe
I know this answer, but let me ask it anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, I think I know you're correct, and the assumption
it would definitely be be Richard, And especially after delving
deep into his life and the people that loved him
and the people who played music with him, nothing has
changed in that way, and I can only hope that
he would be honored but probably a little embarrassed about
(02:37):
about having a book done about him, But I would
it would be a joy to take a walk with him.
Somewhere in Woodstock or Stratford, Ontario.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Yeah, you highlight certainly all aspects of his life, but
we'll talk about in particular the Stratford, Ontario pieces as well.
But I want to talk about the genesis and the
motivation for the book first. What was it about Richard
that compelled you to devote four years of researching and
(03:08):
writing his biography, especially, you know, when every member of
the band certainly has a compelling story.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, and to your point, they all are equal of
a story because that's what made them great. But to
go back, like anybody, I think my first view of
Richard was the Last Waltz, and admittedly through his own words,
he wasn't in the greatest of condition at that point.
But watching that film and being the kind of rock geek,
(03:40):
I am something clicked where, you know, like other musicians,
whether it be Eric Clapton or George Harris, is something
clicked where I'm like, there's something about this guy that's
different from other music that I've been listening to or
you know that's been shown to me. So I think
the seed was planted there, and this was, you know,
(04:01):
when I was probably a teenager, and then as I
started to use my website as a repository for the
music that I love, whether it's a bootleg or an album.
I kept coming back to the band, and Richard obviously
was one of my musical idols. And I kept coming
(04:21):
back to Richard. And when I saw the film I
believe it was in twenty nineteen Robbie Robertson's once were Brothers,
I got the same feeling that I saw that I
had when I saw The Last Waltz. I was like,
there's got to be more to Richard. There has to be,
you know, And I had been in the intervening years,
(04:42):
you know, I'd listened to so much band music and
done research, read Levon's book, Robbie's book, Barney Hoskins book,
and I was like, man, there's got to be more
to this guy. And because that's what I do, I
go on the deep dive and I started to find
that there was a lot and that he was responsible
for so much, and I wanted to dispel that narrative
(05:04):
that was created by the Last Waltz, which is one
of my favorite films. Like everybody, I mean, definitive, but
I thought that I could shine a brighter light on
Richard and his contributions, which I didn't think got the
full spectrum in that film. And once I started digging
and talking to people, especially up in his hometown, I
(05:25):
just there was a lot more and it just started
to pop up. And I started to collect information in
a meaningful way and compile it with the stuff i'd heard,
and then it just started getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
This is your first foray into writing a book so deeply,
you know, just thorough correct.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
I mean, yes, again, I kind of focused. I would do,
you know, focused pieces on certain things that I loved,
but admittedly the Richard story I had told people and
my wife, I was like, you know, maybe I'll do
a series of pieces on my website the spotlight different
parts of his life. And then it was like, well,
(06:08):
I'm going to self publish a book because I had
so much material. And then I was working with a
local editor and she said, you got to put a
proposal together here. This deserves more than just what you're thinking,
whether a blog piece or you putting together a self
published book, and which I would still do, but we
wanted the right presentation, We wanted the right care taken
(06:32):
that I probably couldn't provide the book doing it all
on my own. And once we did that and Schiffer
Books came back and said we would love to publish
this book. And I had seen other pieces they had
done with some of their other authors, and just the
high craft, a beautiful way that they put their books together.
(06:53):
I thought, this is what Richard deserves, and it ended
up working out for the best, and then you know,
here we are.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
I have to say for anybody who loves rock music
and loves you know, biographies and deep dive takes on
rock musicians, musicians of any type, but particular rock and
then you know, going deeper into the world of Bob
Dylan and the band and you're in love with you know,
(07:21):
those aspects. The book is so beautifully put together. The
you know, just the look of it, the photos or
rich every aspect of it really is beautifully done. So
it's one of the best that you know, I've ever
taken a look at. And I can't put it down.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I certainly, I certainly appreciate that, and Buzz I have
to give full full credit to It's a testament to
how many people loved Richard. Is all the photographers and
family members who graciously gave images and contributed to that
to this help tell the story, and then you know,
putting it all together with the words and then the presentation,
like you said, by the design team at Schiffer it
(08:05):
all you don't like the band, All the components kind
of came together to build something that was that was
greater than some of its parts.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
I think one of the amazing things about the band
when they broke on the scene that I remember was
the fact that they were this band that we really
couldn't categorize. We didn't really know what you know, box
if you will, to put them in uh. They were
just so unique in their sound and that was one
(08:37):
of the driving forces. And then the more we all
learned about them, you know, in terms of their deep
connection with Bob Dylan, and then of course before that,
you know, the Hawks. They they were a band that
we were really fixated on, you know, Beck certainly from
(08:58):
the beginning, because you couldn't a category on them, really.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, and for a period of time no one knew
even who they were, you know, and making that connection.
All these were the guys that were on stage with
with Dylan, you know, and I think part of the
mystery was part of the attraction, but also the music
that came out of this, you know, was you can
see with way Rock went after their debut album, after
(09:23):
music from Big Pink. It's like it was such a
specialized form of music from all of the diverse influences
from each member that it just took everything and moved
in another direction, which I've always just found completely fascinating.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
I'm grateful for the fact I got to to see
those boys on three different occasions, which were all very
different in that regard. I have to ask you, as
someone as a fan and then someone who's written this
great book, that must make you I sense you didn't
get to see them play, and that that fact must
(10:01):
make you crazy that you never got to experience it.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
No, You're completely right, and that's I think part of
the reason why I do these these in depth analysis
analysis of the available recordings and field recordings. I mean,
that's just something I really really enjoy no matter who
it is. But with this piece in particular, going back
to the earliest Revels performance, through the Hawks, through the band,
(10:28):
and watching Richard's arc becoming this this visionary artist and
trying to put yourself in that place, you know, through
the vibes of the tape, putting headphones on even if
there's the poorous sounding recording, and trying to get to
that magic, you know, through through the sonics. And that
(10:49):
was a big part of the book. Was was because
there wasn't a lot available interviewised from Richard or you know,
just not a lot of material official. It was nice
to go in and really find some of these things
are a little on stage things he would say, and
just stuff like that and pulling it all together. That
was really a joyful part of the process for me.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Among the many things that I learned for the first time,
I didn't know of the nickname the.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Beak, and that's that's Stratford, you know. And right up
until he played Richard played with the Reunited Band at
the end of eighty five, when he went home and played,
you know, that was one of the things. You can
hear the crowd yelling for Beak and it's just I
had man. That had to be a just a towering
(11:37):
achievement and fine moment for someone you know is sensitive
and his feeling is Richard to go home triumphant and
have his old high you know, his old nickname being
yelled at him by teachers, friends, family, and I feel
like that was a really really cool, cool moment for Richard.
And as you saw, there's a couple of pictures from
that night which I just treasure because he's glow in
(12:00):
those photos.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Yeah, you really laid that out beautifully. So you interviewed
tons of people and family, friends, and then some amazing
legendary musicians such as Eric Clapton and then Van Morrison.
What was the most surprising or moving story that you
heard during your research?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Well as far as something that really struck me emotionally,
was speaking to Eric, and Eric being so insightful on
the on kind of the parallel paths that they Richard
and himself they traveled together. You know, Richard unfortunately didn't
make it out. Eric almost didn't make it out, and
(12:45):
he really kind of laid it out for me to
kind of understand where Richard was coming from musically and
emotionally and the things he was dealing with. And really,
I can honestly say I don't think anybody else could
really get to that point. And I just feel like
some of Eric's contributions are just very insightful and understanding
(13:09):
where Richard was at certain points and where he was going.
And now as far as surprising, it was Richard was
the best blue singer around in a pre band. I'm
talking Revels and Hawks, and I knew that there was
more from that era, but talking to friends, family, people
(13:33):
that saw the Hawks, this guy was like something I
knew you've probably heard where Levon was, like, you know,
he was our lead singer and he was a show
to himself, like that was no joke. And that I
really find one of the more exciting parts and the
things I love about compiling Richard's story is this guy
was authentic. He was real, and he could sing the blues.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
As you know, an eighteen year old kid coming from
Canada and you and you know this as a music
fan buzz to to be able to to be able
to sing the blues authentically, you've got to have something there.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
People can can spot if you're not doing it right,
you know. And the story of him and the Revels
going down to Arkansas to Ronnie's Club and playing for
people that were used to hear in real blues music
and hit Richard blowing him away, and that I thought
was was really excellent and a real good statement of
(14:31):
how vital he was. And even though the Hawks weren't
weren't popular, they were well respected and you can kind
of see why they took the path they did based
on those early shows.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
How about the Van Morrison conversation.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So I spoke with Eric Van was it was he
was accommodating. We corresponded through email, and it was I
turned the book in to the publisher because I've been
trying for a couple of years to get and I mean,
the day after Vans, people are like, we've got your questions,
(15:06):
We've looked them over, Van's gonna answer them. I'm like, yes, yes,
So Shifferd allowed me to assimilate that stuff in back
in and the same thing. You know, you can just
tell these guys really respected each other and then they
had great love for Richard. And I'm just thankful for
both of those guys for not only adding validity to
(15:28):
his story, but just showing how important he was to
the to the band's contemporaries.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
The Dylan pieces are, you know, obviously such an integral
part on so many levels, especially when Bob was kind
of you know, scouting out the fact that he would be,
you know, working with Richard and the boys. I was
surprised back then Dylan was flying a private plane up
(15:54):
to Toronto. Yeah, private private even then. And uh, just
how that all evolved? Can you talk about that? How
you know it suddenly came together that you know, Bob
kind of sought him out and wanted him.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, And it's weird how all those things, you know,
the series of coincidences and connections. And first off, I
have to say, I just think another aspect of richards story,
which is amazing, is you know, he made his mark
with his voice, and he had no problem just being
the piano player once they hooked up with Dylan, and
(16:31):
you know, for a guy, you know, no ego there
at all. It's like, we're gonna we just got done
backing Ronnie Hawkins. Now we're gonna go back a folk singer.
Richard's like, sure, let's go. What do we gotta do?
You know? And I just think that's a really cool
part of his story. And but you know, you have
to take into account John Hammond, who had seen Richard
(16:52):
singing the blues in Canada, and obviously the Hawks play
in the blues authentically and his connection with with with Dylan,
and then Mary Martin, who worked for Albert Grossman and
saw the Hawks in Toronto, her getting in Dylan's ear
constantly once he started looking for an electric band. These guys,
(17:16):
these guys, and Dylan said and rolling Stone. At one
point He's like, she just wouldn't stop. She's like, you
got to see these guys, you know. So finally Dylan's like, okay,
So what started out as being Robbie and Levon because
after Dylan went electric at Newport and he wanted to
take the band on the road, Butterfield Blues Band was
not gonna They weren't going to take that, you know.
(17:36):
They had their own thing going on. And it came around.
They did two shows Forest Hills and Hollywood Bowl with
Robby and Levon, and then when they came back, you know,
and they both say this in their respective memoirs, you
got to take all of us if you want a fuol,
but you got to take we're a team here. And
to your point, Dylan went up there. After they did
(17:57):
a late night at the Friars Club. They'd done you know,
six hours, three set whatever they did at that night
and into the late hours, they tried to get it together,
and from all accounts, you know, it was a little difficult.
I mean, you've got a solo strummer not playing electric
music on stage, and then you've got a band that's
like practiced and tightened down, you know, bank vault tight
(18:19):
and trying to get these these disparate elements to work together.
And it ended up happening. And I used a quote
that I had found in a newspaper in Toronto after
Dylan left, where he makes the comment that, you know,
I don't know what my sound is now, but I
think I found it.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It's like, right, well, who else is he talking about.
He's just just left rehearsals with the Hawks, you know.
I just think that's really cool, even he knew this
is this is this is it?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
To your point on Richard's generosity of and open mindedness too,
Then there was the period certainly where Levon was not
the drummer during some work and Richard's just like, okay,
I'll pitch in.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, i'll be, I'll be I'll be the drummer. And
it's funny because I talked to a couple classmates in
Stratford and they're like, you know, we were playing in
the kel Musky basement. Ken Kamuskin for those who't know,
the bass player of Richard's first band, and h Richard
would hop on the drums once in a while, you know,
but in typical Richard fashion. It wasn't anything flashy, just
do his thing. I mean, nobody even knew that he
(19:25):
played lap steel until he started playing it in front
of people. So it's funny. He selfless in so many ways,
but musically completely selfless. You know, whatever it would take
to take the song to the next level. And again,
like we talked about earlier, any of the band guys
you could apply that too, but Richard especially so that
(19:49):
you know he would he would take his whatever his
strengths were, it didn't matter. He would just do ever
the song or the songwriter required. And I think that's
what part of part what made him a special guy.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
How did you trips to Stratford and your work in
the Stratford Perth Archives shape your understanding of Richard's early years.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
That was amazing because I felt like I felt kind
of a kinship with Stratford and everyone there was so welcoming,
especially Richard's family, and it seemed like every time I
talk to someone, they'd be like, hey, have you talked
to this person? And there's still folks around there. I mean,
(20:33):
the guy's a local legend, you know. And I really
it was important to me to really focus on how
important in how the artistic ambience of Stratford shaped Richard
shaped maybe his dramaticism shaped the way he interacted with
friends and musicians. And you know, like anybody where you
(20:54):
grow up, it's part of you, you know, you internalize
that stuff. And at the Archives, everyone there was absolutely amazing.
They knew what I was doing, and I made it
clear that this was going to be a tribute, and
they made open arms, you know, whatever you need. I
made four or five trips up there post pandemic, because
(21:17):
obviously when I really wanted to get up there in
the early stages of the book, I could not. And
so I went up there a few times. And Richard's
sister lawe Catherine, instrumental in not only protecting the family
legacy and you know, making sure that I was doing
the right thing the whole way. I needed to make
(21:39):
sure the family knew what I was doing. And this
was for me, This wasn't for anyone else. You know,
if someone was writing story around about my father or someone,
I want to know what are the intentions for this?
And I wanted to make it clear to everyone I
talked to in Stratford this is a tribute and a focus,
not a whitewash, because there's an elephant in the room
that you have to talk about when you're talking a
(22:00):
story like this. But the focus was on the music
and the biography kind of went around that, if that
makes sense, you know. But everybody up there that I
met was just kind, and everybody had a story about Richard.
It was funny. I'd be walking the streets to see
where they used to rehearse the revels, and more than
once I met someone and they'd be like, oh, yeah,
(22:20):
I saw Richard, you know, playing on a flatbed over
at Queen's Park. And it was just like all these
little tidbits were available, so it was cool to go
to the source.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
We'll be right back with more of the Taking a
Walk Podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
I didn't know of that. I almost call it a
residency of sorts that they did through the summer, the
New Jersey experience. Can you talk about that.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Well, I will tell you, Buzz. One of the things,
you know, if there was something that I out of
all this that I wish existed, would be recordings of
those nights on the Jersey Shore, because from all accounts
and all the people I talked to, there was nothing
like it, you know, there was nothing at all going
on Tony Marts. I used this in the book. If
you've seen the film Eddie and the Cruisers that was
(23:13):
filmed at Tony Marts, and you see those nights, and
that's like the closest you can get to the kind
of mayhem and beautiful chaos that was happening, you know.
And these guys there were one of the stories I
talk about in the book, there were guys coming up
from Atlantic City that had heard about Richard, about him singing,
James Brown and Robbie's guitar playing was already reaching legendary status,
(23:38):
you know, and it's like I wanted so much more.
I had talked to the historical society down there and
read pulled newspapers and done all that, and talked to
people who had been to some shows. But man, I
think for the Hawks, I think that's where they hit it,
you know, and where they found out like we've got
something here that we can just take anywhere. And then,
(24:01):
like you said, then Bob showed up and throw it out,
threw everything into chaos, but it was it was all
worth it.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
So great pictures from that that neighborhood too, down in
the Jersey Shore. My god.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah. And I have to say that what Richard's Richard's
first wife, Jane had that beautiful photo of Tony Martz
with Levan and the Hawks on the Marquee when she
went down there to visit Richard, and I just was like,
oh my god, that that just it's like a period piece.
You just can't you know, I mean, that kind of
sums it all up right there.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Sure he does. Another of the many things I learned
and in the book was the connection with one tiny Tim.
Can you talk about that?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, I mean he was hanging around Woodstock, you know,
and he was kind of hanging around everybody and when
so we'll jump a little bit past once they got
with Dylan and they did the Fame sixty six European
two or when they came back to New York and
then Dylan had his accident. When the guys started kind
(25:06):
of making their way up to Woodstock because they were
on retainer, you know, they needed to do something. Grossman
was wanted them to do something, and if Bob wasn't
going to go on the road, so they started to
go up there to see what he was up to.
But they started to do cut ins in filming for
Eat the document, the unreleased nineteen sixty six film, and
they weren't recording music at that point. They were doing
(25:29):
these little cool little clips and surreal stuff. And you
can see some stuff from the Dylan Center on YouTube
of color footage of Richard just smiling in a snow
covered ground in Woodstock, beautiful grin and just kind of
the vibe of the era and what they were getting into.
So tiny Tim was a part of that, and he'd
(25:50):
bring his yuke over and play with Bob, and then
Robbie was up there, and then Richard and Rick showed
up when Rick found Big Pink, and that's when like
the music making started. They weren't filmmakers obviously, but that's
when the organic start of the basement tapes, I suppose,
you know, like they just started realizing, well, we're all
(26:11):
here together, let's just start jamming. But everybody liked tiny
tim and you know that eclectic kind of touched every
little bit of every genre you possibly could. So it
was what a what a happening environment right there, you know,
with everybody in Woodstock, like the true Woodstock spirit in
that in that era.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
It's just oh yeah, and you really paint what we,
you know, heard when we first heard the Basement tapes.
You paint the fact that they were just you know,
having a blast, and that's.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Really what it comes down to, you know, And you know,
I it's funny you say that because I was cognizant
of this fact. It's like, you don't want to get
too scientific about this stuff. When it comes down to it,
they were they were enjoying making music together. They had
done this Row stuff and been booed but you know
in Europe and had stuff thrown at them and flown
(27:05):
in rickety airplanes and the Hawks, I mean Richard in particular,
nineteen fifty seven, he'd been going and playing music and
really had never stopped. And they all kind of took
stock and enjoyed each other's company and just the music
obviously just came out of everybody, which is really really
(27:27):
the magical part of the basement tapes is just the
natural love of each other and love of the music
they're creating.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
The book addresses Richard's personal struggles with addiction and inner turmoil.
How did you approach these topics, which are sensitive topics
while still so brilliantly celebrating his artistry and humanity?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Thank you for that, buzz was. I struggled at points
because this was a reality, but I wanted to My
goal when I started the whole project was to dispel
the narrative that this is who Richard was, and really
I wanted to bring out the humanity in him and
(28:15):
know that it could happen at any of this thing.
This isn't like, this wasn't a unique thing to Richard,
and I kind of felt like over the years it
was like when Richard was brought up, it was like
this happened because he drank or because he did this,
and it's part and parcel for who he was. But
like I had alluded to earlier, I kind of wanted
(28:36):
to focus on the music and then let his situation
kind of the biography kind of develop on its own
without focusing. And as you know, you've read a number
of rock and roll books. Some of them focus on
the stuff that's salacious, you know, and that just didn't
(28:57):
didn't appeal to me. And I think because I backed
into it Richard's story of like I saw that I
knew from reading everything that he had had issues. I
was like, I don't think I needed to belabor that fact.
So it was a delicate balance. And I told some
of his family members, I go, obviously, these are things
that happened, and some of them were very candid about
things that Richard did. But I didn't feel like I
(29:20):
needed to pound it into the ground. I really wanted,
you know, we know what happened. Oddly enough, I thought
the book would end differently, and I say that part serious,
you know, when when I got to the end of
the book, I'm like, really, there's not more, you know.
And that's one of the that is the heartbreaking thing.
I've had some people comment to me, you know, it's
(29:41):
going to be a sad book, and I was like,
there's a lot of joy in the book, you know.
I don't want it to be sad. I want it
to be Wow. What a talented guy who was human
like all of us and face some issues that he
could not defeat, and I hope that I balanced those
things equally. I really really focused on doing that.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
I believe you did. For sure, I really believe you did.
So let's go to some particular songs. I'll list some
of my favorites. There's so many favorites, and I'll get
your reflection on some of these songs that either Richard
you know, rode or took the singing lead on. So
(30:24):
one that he didn't write, but it's one of my
favorites is Rock and Share.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, And you know I mentioned in the book that Richard,
in addition to being a songwriter, in my opinion, is
one of the best interpreters ever. And you can see
that from the Hawks all the way through. And he
easily made songs his and you can see on the
(30:50):
Festival Express there's a really beautiful performance of rock and
Share that the band does I believe in Calgary. And
he takes the words that weren't necessarily his, but you know,
you believe it. It's like with King Harvest. He could
slide into character, and I think that comes from his
immersion into the blues. You can he could slide into
(31:11):
this character's shoes and you're convinced, you know, and rock
and share. It's one of those things you really wonder
as far as melody, what Richard contributed, because when you
listen to Richard a lot, you know, like anything like
a fingerprint, there's things you feel that like are his,
(31:33):
you know, trademark roles or little core changes or little
little melodic plays that he would use. And you hear
it and you're like, wow, you can't tell. You're like,
whose song is this? Because it certainly sounds like Richard's
in that case, you know, So yeah, I think, I think,
I think one of Robbie's finest lyrics and one of
Richard's most incredible vocal vocal approaches of band era for sure.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
For sure another uh impassioned lead vocal performances on the
song The Shape I'm In.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, And that's one you know that it kind of
the reverse like that became Richard's song, you know, and
everybody's like, oh man, this this this guy's singing about himself,
when we all in actuality we know Robbie was writing
about himself, no matter what he says later. And I'm
(32:28):
not going to disagree with with Robbie. You know, he
wrote the song but it wasn't just this is a
song about Richard. They were all going through the same stuff,
and that's part of the thing. I also wanted not
to go off, but I wanted to focus on was
you know, Richard wasn't the only guy that was having
issues in that band. They all dealt with issues, and
(32:49):
I think that song kind of sums it up. But
by the end of his life, I think Richard was
was over it, probably reading the book, you know, one
of the last the last show, he'd said to his wife,
He's like, I'm I don't want to play it anymore.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
I'm done.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
I need more, you know, there was more that needed
to happen. So but obviously you can't that song, whether
it's from Richard's Rhodes Gars Lowry, I mean, it's there's
nothing like it, you know, there's really nothing else. It's
like this mo dittily crossed with country funk. There's nothing
(33:24):
like that song. So you couldn't pick a better one
to be you know, have Richard attached.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
To and then music from Big Pink, The Quintessential I
shall be released.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
And if you listen to those basement recordings, you can
hear the genesis of the band's version, you know, and
because in the in the basement they're doing three part
harmonies and you could hear Richard's falsetto on the very
top of Bob and then all of a sudden, when
you listen to the studio version, you're like, oh, I mean,
(33:56):
they just knew that they had something with this guy,
with these vocals. I mean, and again it's one of
those songs where you're like, wow, this had to have
been written for him. But you know, it's a Dylan lyric,
and it's now it's become like synonymous with so many things,
you know, so many all star jams, there so many
(34:16):
performances that close with that, because it's just such an
amazing song. And again, Richard made it his own, and
that's really though. He used it to great effect on
a number of songs on music from Big Pink, his
falsetto on that It's hard to hear the song with
anything but that, you know, at least for me anyways.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Another one music by Richard manual lyrics by Robbie Robertson
is Whispering Pines.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, and I mean, and I say this in the book,
especially the mid section where Levon and Richard do the
calm response. I personally feel that's like one of the
defining moments of the band's entire discography. And Richard he
wrote that song, and Bellows wrote and would stock in
George Bellow's old house under under Mountain cat Skills an
(35:08):
artist home, completely fitting, and that was one of those songs,
and we could get into the collaboration. The missed opportunities
for Robbie and Richard to really take their collaboration to
the highest levels, but that song seemed the perfect marriage.
You know, Richard was this melodicist who always he just
(35:28):
had he had, He's just music coming out of him.
He would get stuck on words. And Robbie one of
the best lyricists you know, in rock music then and
I still feel that way today. And when you marry
those things. And Robbie said in his memoir that you know,
Richard came in, he was just stuck, couldn't couldn't get
(35:48):
the theme. Like music he had, he just couldn't get
the words. So Robbie took took it on vacation, came
back and there we go. But I mean it kind
of again, it kind of collaborates. It's the best that
both of them have to offer. And then you throw
in Levon singing with Richard, which is one of the
best things in the world, and Garth tying it all together,
(36:12):
and it's like, I, you know, people say King Harvest,
which I agree with, I think with spring Pine's as
far as for Richard is doesn't get much better.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
And then I could go on and on, of course.
And then another one which you know, co written with
Bob Dylan is and then the opening track from Music
from Big Pink, Tears of Rage.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, and another one that was that was you know,
cultivated from those basement sessions. And I've mentioned this to
other people, you know, in Robbie's memoir, he says, I
feel like that was the point where I saw Richard's
songwriting like a send to this new place. And obviously
everyone felt that way to have it be the opening
(36:54):
song on their debut record. And you know, there's the
Dylan connection there, which Dylan didn't co right at that
point with very many people wrote with Rick and Richard,
which is which is great. And I just you you
may or may not know the story, you know, where
they had the typewriter on the table at Big Pink
and Dylan would show up before people got up. He'd
(37:16):
make coffee and he'd just clicking a clack away. And
one of those days, Richard was sitting at the panel
and Bob goes, can you do something of those changes
for this? And Richard and his interview in nineteen eighty
four with the Woodstock time and said, you know, well,
what do you say to Bob Dylan, Like what is
this about? Like, you don't ask Bob that. So he
married the two things together and again the melody and
(37:40):
the words and those regal chord changes. It's like that
was the first thing that all of these guys that
loved the band heard. Eric concluded, you know that that
was it, that was the introduction, and I think that's
fitting and that that is again, you know, every song
you say, we're like, wow, how can you beat that?
Speaker 4 (38:01):
Yeah, and then you figure out how to beat it.
Why the band? That's why he was Richard Manuel, you
know exactly, And that's why Bob is Bob Dylan, you
know exactly when you break it down. So in closing,
I know Richard's family has you know, they supported and
have endorsed the book, and they were so helpful in
(38:23):
the process. But and you made reference to this, But
how do you think Richard would would feel about this
now that it's you know, out for the world to read.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I know he would be because he was a self
deprecating kind of guy. I think he would be embarrassed.
But I think that I like to think that he
would be proud of his accomplishments. And I've had a
couple of his family members, you know, it's it's it's hard.
It was hard for me personally. I wanted to make
(38:55):
sure that I could get as close to Richard as
I possibly could with never meeting the guy. And I
had a couple family members both say I feel Richard
in this book, And really, I mean, right now, it
gives me goosebump stuff because that really, that's all that
mattered to me, is that this tribute to him gave
(39:15):
a clear picture and for people down the line, when,
as we just talked about, someone drops the needle on
music from Big Pink and here's tears of Rage and
they're like, who is this singer? Now there's a reference
for that, you know, there's not just the last Waltz
or once we're brothers. There's a reference and you can
go through and say wow, Wow, this guy was responsible
(39:37):
for so much music and it never stopped, no matter
the narrative, it never stopped. You know, he had some
issues getting started, but it was always coming from him
and he was always doing what he could do to
make music with friends.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
Stephen T. Lewis, bravo. You did an amazing job than you.
You poured your heart and soul and it and you
let us feel the heart and soul of Richard Manuel
in the book, So everybody ought to check it out seriously.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
I certainly appreciate it and thank you for the kind words.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a
Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends
and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking
a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your podcasts.
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
When you listen to Richard a lot, you know, like
anything like a fingerprint, there's things you feel that like
are his trademark roles or a little core changes or
little little melodic plays that he would use. And you
hear it and you're like, wow, you can't tell. You're like,
whose song is this? Because it certainly sounds like Richard's.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm buzz night, your host of Taking a Walk. This
is the podcast where we stroll through the stories behind
music creativity and the people who shape our culture. Today,
we're going to have on the acclaimed author Steven t Lewis.
He's got a biography that shines a long overdue spotlight
one of rock's most soulful and enigmatic voices, Richard Manuel,
(00:47):
of the band. Known for his haunting falsetto, heartfelt songwriting
and unforgettable performances, Richard Manuel helped define the sound of
an era, but his personal story has often remained in
the shadows. Stephen t Lewis spent four years delving into
Manuel's life, interviewing friends, family, and musical legends, and unearthing
(01:13):
rare photos and stories that reveal the man behind the music.
In this episode, We're going to explore what drew Stephen
to Manuel's story, the challenges and joys of capturing a
complex legacy, and why Richard's music continues to resonate with
fans and musicians alike. We welcome right now Stephen t
(01:37):
Lewis to the Taken a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Well, it's nice to sync up with Stephen t Lewis
on the Taken a Walk Podcast talking about the amazing
Richard Manuel biography. Thanks for being on.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh, thanks for having me as your guest. I certainly
appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
So I do start out the podcast, It's Taken a Walk,
asking the question if someone could take a walk with
someone living or dead, who might it be. I believe
I know this answer, but let me ask it anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, I think I know you're correct, and the assumption
it would definitely be be Richard, And especially after delving
deep into his life and the people that loved him
and the people who played music with him, nothing has
changed in that way, and I can only hope that
he would be honored but probably a little embarrassed about
(02:37):
about having a book done about him, But I would
it would be a joy to take a walk with him.
Somewhere in Woodstock or Stratford, Ontario.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Yeah, you highlight certainly all aspects of his life, but
we'll talk about in particular the Stratford, Ontario pieces as well.
But I want to talk about the genesis and the
motivation for the book first. What was it about Richard
that compelled you to devote four years of researching and
(03:08):
writing his biography, especially, you know, when every member of
the band certainly has a compelling story.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, and to your point, they all are equal of
a story because that's what made them great. But to
go back, like anybody, I think my first view of
Richard was the Last Waltz, and admittedly through his own words,
he wasn't in the greatest of condition at that point.
But watching that film and being the kind of rock geek,
(03:40):
I am something clicked where, you know, like other musicians,
whether it be Eric Clapton or George Harris, is something
clicked where I'm like, there's something about this guy that's
different from other music that I've been listening to or
you know that's been shown to me. So I think
the seed was planted there, and this was, you know,
(04:01):
when I was probably a teenager, and then as I
started to use my website as a repository for the
music that I love, whether it's a bootleg or an album.
I kept coming back to the band, and Richard obviously
was one of my musical idols. And I kept coming
(04:21):
back to Richard. And when I saw the film I
believe it was in twenty nineteen Robbie Robertson's once were Brothers,
I got the same feeling that I saw that I
had when I saw The Last Waltz. I was like,
there's got to be more to Richard. There has to be,
you know, And I had been in the intervening years,
(04:42):
you know, I'd listened to so much band music and
done research, read Levon's book, Robbie's book, Barney Hoskins book,
and I was like, man, there's got to be more
to this guy. And because that's what I do, I
go on the deep dive and I started to find
that there was a lot and that he was responsible
for so much, and I wanted to dispel that narrative
(05:04):
that was created by the Last Waltz, which is one
of my favorite films. Like everybody, I mean, definitive, but
I thought that I could shine a brighter light on
Richard and his contributions, which I didn't think got the
full spectrum in that film. And once I started digging
and talking to people, especially up in his hometown, I
(05:25):
just there was a lot more and it just started
to pop up. And I started to collect information in
a meaningful way and compile it with the stuff i'd heard,
and then it just started getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
This is your first foray into writing a book so deeply,
you know, just thorough correct.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
I mean, yes, again, I kind of focused. I would do,
you know, focused pieces on certain things that I loved,
but admittedly the Richard story I had told people and
my wife, I was like, you know, maybe I'll do
a series of pieces on my website the spotlight different
parts of his life. And then it was like, well,
(06:08):
I'm going to self publish a book because I had
so much material. And then I was working with a
local editor and she said, you got to put a
proposal together here. This deserves more than just what you're thinking,
whether a blog piece or you putting together a self
published book, and which I would still do, but we
wanted the right presentation, We wanted the right care taken
(06:32):
that I probably couldn't provide the book doing it all
on my own. And once we did that and Schiffer
Books came back and said we would love to publish
this book. And I had seen other pieces they had
done with some of their other authors, and just the
high craft, a beautiful way that they put their books together.
(06:53):
I thought, this is what Richard deserves, and it ended
up working out for the best, and then you know,
here we are.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
I have to say for anybody who loves rock music
and loves you know, biographies and deep dive takes on
rock musicians, musicians of any type, but particular rock and
then you know, going deeper into the world of Bob
Dylan and the band and you're in love with you know,
(07:21):
those aspects. The book is so beautifully put together. The
you know, just the look of it, the photos or
rich every aspect of it really is beautifully done. So
it's one of the best that you know, I've ever
taken a look at. And I can't put it down.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I certainly, I certainly appreciate that, and Buzz I have
to give full full credit to It's a testament to
how many people loved Richard. Is all the photographers and
family members who graciously gave images and contributed to that
to this help tell the story, and then you know,
putting it all together with the words and then the presentation,
like you said, by the design team at Schiffer it
(08:05):
all you don't like the band, All the components kind
of came together to build something that was that was
greater than some of its parts.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
I think one of the amazing things about the band
when they broke on the scene that I remember was
the fact that they were this band that we really
couldn't categorize. We didn't really know what you know, box
if you will, to put them in uh. They were
just so unique in their sound and that was one
(08:37):
of the driving forces. And then the more we all
learned about them, you know, in terms of their deep
connection with Bob Dylan, and then of course before that,
you know, the Hawks. They they were a band that
we were really fixated on, you know, Beck certainly from
(08:58):
the beginning, because you couldn't a category on them, really.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, and for a period of time no one knew
even who they were, you know, and making that connection.
All these were the guys that were on stage with
with Dylan, you know, and I think part of the
mystery was part of the attraction, but also the music
that came out of this, you know, was you can
see with way Rock went after their debut album, after
(09:23):
music from Big Pink. It's like it was such a
specialized form of music from all of the diverse influences
from each member that it just took everything and moved
in another direction, which I've always just found completely fascinating.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
I'm grateful for the fact I got to to see
those boys on three different occasions, which were all very
different in that regard. I have to ask you, as
someone as a fan and then someone who's written this
great book, that must make you I sense you didn't
get to see them play, and that that fact must
(10:01):
make you crazy that you never got to experience it.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
No, You're completely right, and that's I think part of
the reason why I do these these in depth analysis
analysis of the available recordings and field recordings. I mean,
that's just something I really really enjoy no matter who
it is. But with this piece in particular, going back
to the earliest Revels performance, through the Hawks, through the band,
(10:28):
and watching Richard's arc becoming this this visionary artist and
trying to put yourself in that place, you know, through
the vibes of the tape, putting headphones on even if
there's the poorous sounding recording, and trying to get to
that magic, you know, through through the sonics. And that
(10:49):
was a big part of the book. Was was because
there wasn't a lot available interviewised from Richard or you know,
just not a lot of material official. It was nice
to go in and really find some of these things
are a little on stage things he would say, and
just stuff like that and pulling it all together. That
was really a joyful part of the process for me.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Among the many things that I learned for the first time,
I didn't know of the nickname the.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Beak, and that's that's Stratford, you know. And right up
until he played Richard played with the Reunited Band at
the end of eighty five, when he went home and played,
you know, that was one of the things. You can
hear the crowd yelling for Beak and it's just I
had man. That had to be a just a towering
(11:37):
achievement and fine moment for someone you know is sensitive
and his feeling is Richard to go home triumphant and
have his old high you know, his old nickname being
yelled at him by teachers, friends, family, and I feel
like that was a really really cool, cool moment for Richard.
And as you saw, there's a couple of pictures from
that night which I just treasure because he's glow in
(12:00):
those photos.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Yeah, you really laid that out beautifully. So you interviewed
tons of people and family, friends, and then some amazing
legendary musicians such as Eric Clapton and then Van Morrison.
What was the most surprising or moving story that you
heard during your research?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Well as far as something that really struck me emotionally,
was speaking to Eric, and Eric being so insightful on
the on kind of the parallel paths that they Richard
and himself they traveled together. You know, Richard unfortunately didn't
make it out. Eric almost didn't make it out, and
(12:45):
he really kind of laid it out for me to
kind of understand where Richard was coming from musically and
emotionally and the things he was dealing with. And really,
I can honestly say I don't think anybody else could
really get to that point. And I just feel like
some of Eric's contributions are just very insightful and understanding
(13:09):
where Richard was at certain points and where he was going.
And now as far as surprising, it was Richard was
the best blue singer around in a pre band. I'm
talking Revels and Hawks, and I knew that there was
more from that era, but talking to friends, family, people
(13:33):
that saw the Hawks, this guy was like something I
knew you've probably heard where Levon was, like, you know,
he was our lead singer and he was a show
to himself, like that was no joke. And that I
really find one of the more exciting parts and the
things I love about compiling Richard's story is this guy
was authentic. He was real, and he could sing the blues.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
As you know, an eighteen year old kid coming from
Canada and you and you know this as a music
fan buzz to to be able to to be able
to sing the blues authentically, you've got to have something there.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
People can can spot if you're not doing it right,
you know. And the story of him and the Revels
going down to Arkansas to Ronnie's Club and playing for
people that were used to hear in real blues music
and hit Richard blowing him away, and that I thought
was was really excellent and a real good statement of
(14:31):
how vital he was. And even though the Hawks weren't
weren't popular, they were well respected and you can kind
of see why they took the path they did based
on those early shows.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
How about the Van Morrison conversation.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So I spoke with Eric Van was it was he
was accommodating. We corresponded through email, and it was I
turned the book in to the publisher because I've been
trying for a couple of years to get and I mean,
the day after Vans, people are like, we've got your questions,
(15:06):
We've looked them over, Van's gonna answer them. I'm like, yes, yes,
So Shifferd allowed me to assimilate that stuff in back
in and the same thing. You know, you can just
tell these guys really respected each other and then they
had great love for Richard. And I'm just thankful for
both of those guys for not only adding validity to
(15:28):
his story, but just showing how important he was to
the to the band's contemporaries.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
The Dylan pieces are, you know, obviously such an integral
part on so many levels, especially when Bob was kind
of you know, scouting out the fact that he would be,
you know, working with Richard and the boys. I was
surprised back then Dylan was flying a private plane up
(15:54):
to Toronto. Yeah, private private even then. And uh, just
how that all evolved? Can you talk about that? How
you know it suddenly came together that you know, Bob
kind of sought him out and wanted him.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, And it's weird how all those things, you know,
the series of coincidences and connections. And first off, I
have to say, I just think another aspect of richards story,
which is amazing, is you know, he made his mark
with his voice, and he had no problem just being
the piano player once they hooked up with Dylan, and
(16:31):
you know, for a guy, you know, no ego there
at all. It's like, we're gonna we just got done
backing Ronnie Hawkins. Now we're gonna go back a folk singer.
Richard's like, sure, let's go. What do we gotta do?
You know? And I just think that's a really cool
part of his story. And but you know, you have
to take into account John Hammond, who had seen Richard
(16:52):
singing the blues in Canada, and obviously the Hawks play
in the blues authentically and his connection with with with Dylan,
and then Mary Martin, who worked for Albert Grossman and
saw the Hawks in Toronto, her getting in Dylan's ear
constantly once he started looking for an electric band. These guys,
(17:16):
these guys, and Dylan said and rolling Stone. At one
point He's like, she just wouldn't stop. She's like, you
got to see these guys, you know. So finally Dylan's like, okay,
So what started out as being Robbie and Levon because
after Dylan went electric at Newport and he wanted to
take the band on the road, Butterfield Blues Band was
not gonna They weren't going to take that, you know.
(17:36):
They had their own thing going on. And it came around.
They did two shows Forest Hills and Hollywood Bowl with
Robby and Levon, and then when they came back, you know,
and they both say this in their respective memoirs, you
got to take all of us if you want a fuol,
but you got to take we're a team here. And
to your point, Dylan went up there. After they did
(17:57):
a late night at the Friars Club. They'd done you know,
six hours, three set whatever they did at that night
and into the late hours, they tried to get it together,
and from all accounts, you know, it was a little difficult.
I mean, you've got a solo strummer not playing electric
music on stage, and then you've got a band that's
like practiced and tightened down, you know, bank vault tight
(18:19):
and trying to get these these disparate elements to work together.
And it ended up happening. And I used a quote
that I had found in a newspaper in Toronto after
Dylan left, where he makes the comment that, you know,
I don't know what my sound is now, but I
think I found it.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It's like, right, well, who else is he talking about.
He's just just left rehearsals with the Hawks, you know.
I just think that's really cool, even he knew this
is this is this is it?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
To your point on Richard's generosity of and open mindedness too,
Then there was the period certainly where Levon was not
the drummer during some work and Richard's just like, okay,
I'll pitch in.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, i'll be, I'll be I'll be the drummer. And
it's funny because I talked to a couple classmates in
Stratford and they're like, you know, we were playing in
the kel Musky basement. Ken Kamuskin for those who't know,
the bass player of Richard's first band, and h Richard
would hop on the drums once in a while, you know,
but in typical Richard fashion. It wasn't anything flashy, just
do his thing. I mean, nobody even knew that he
(19:25):
played lap steel until he started playing it in front
of people. So it's funny. He selfless in so many ways,
but musically completely selfless. You know, whatever it would take
to take the song to the next level. And again,
like we talked about earlier, any of the band guys
you could apply that too, but Richard especially so that
(19:49):
you know he would he would take his whatever his
strengths were, it didn't matter. He would just do ever
the song or the songwriter required. And I think that's
what part of part what made him a special guy.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
How did you trips to Stratford and your work in
the Stratford Perth Archives shape your understanding of Richard's early years.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
That was amazing because I felt like I felt kind
of a kinship with Stratford and everyone there was so welcoming,
especially Richard's family, and it seemed like every time I
talk to someone, they'd be like, hey, have you talked
to this person? And there's still folks around there. I mean,
(20:33):
the guy's a local legend, you know. And I really
it was important to me to really focus on how
important in how the artistic ambience of Stratford shaped Richard
shaped maybe his dramaticism shaped the way he interacted with
friends and musicians. And you know, like anybody where you
(20:54):
grow up, it's part of you, you know, you internalize
that stuff. And at the Archives, everyone there was absolutely amazing.
They knew what I was doing, and I made it
clear that this was going to be a tribute, and
they made open arms, you know, whatever you need. I
made four or five trips up there post pandemic, because
(21:17):
obviously when I really wanted to get up there in
the early stages of the book, I could not. And
so I went up there a few times. And Richard's
sister lawe Catherine, instrumental in not only protecting the family
legacy and you know, making sure that I was doing
the right thing the whole way. I needed to make
(21:39):
sure the family knew what I was doing. And this
was for me, This wasn't for anyone else. You know,
if someone was writing story around about my father or someone,
I want to know what are the intentions for this?
And I wanted to make it clear to everyone I
talked to in Stratford this is a tribute and a focus,
not a whitewash, because there's an elephant in the room
that you have to talk about when you're talking a
(22:00):
story like this. But the focus was on the music
and the biography kind of went around that, if that
makes sense, you know. But everybody up there that I
met was just kind, and everybody had a story about Richard.
It was funny. I'd be walking the streets to see
where they used to rehearse the revels, and more than
once I met someone and they'd be like, oh, yeah,
(22:20):
I saw Richard, you know, playing on a flatbed over
at Queen's Park. And it was just like all these
little tidbits were available, so it was cool to go
to the source.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
We'll be right back with more of the Taking a
Walk Podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
I didn't know of that. I almost call it a
residency of sorts that they did through the summer, the
New Jersey experience. Can you talk about that.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Well, I will tell you, Buzz. One of the things,
you know, if there was something that I out of
all this that I wish existed, would be recordings of
those nights on the Jersey Shore, because from all accounts
and all the people I talked to, there was nothing
like it, you know, there was nothing at all going
on Tony Marts. I used this in the book. If
you've seen the film Eddie and the Cruisers that was
(23:13):
filmed at Tony Marts, and you see those nights, and
that's like the closest you can get to the kind
of mayhem and beautiful chaos that was happening, you know.
And these guys there were one of the stories I
talk about in the book, there were guys coming up
from Atlantic City that had heard about Richard, about him singing,
James Brown and Robbie's guitar playing was already reaching legendary status,
(23:38):
you know, and it's like I wanted so much more.
I had talked to the historical society down there and
read pulled newspapers and done all that, and talked to
people who had been to some shows. But man, I
think for the Hawks, I think that's where they hit it,
you know, and where they found out like we've got
something here that we can just take anywhere. And then,
(24:01):
like you said, then Bob showed up and throw it out,
threw everything into chaos, but it was it was all
worth it.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
So great pictures from that that neighborhood too, down in
the Jersey Shore. My god.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah. And I have to say that what Richard's Richard's
first wife, Jane had that beautiful photo of Tony Martz
with Levan and the Hawks on the Marquee when she
went down there to visit Richard, and I just was like,
oh my god, that that just it's like a period piece.
You just can't you know, I mean, that kind of
sums it all up right there.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Sure he does. Another of the many things I learned
and in the book was the connection with one tiny Tim.
Can you talk about that?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, I mean he was hanging around Woodstock, you know,
and he was kind of hanging around everybody and when
so we'll jump a little bit past once they got
with Dylan and they did the Fame sixty six European
two or when they came back to New York and
then Dylan had his accident. When the guys started kind
(25:06):
of making their way up to Woodstock because they were
on retainer, you know, they needed to do something. Grossman
was wanted them to do something, and if Bob wasn't
going to go on the road, so they started to
go up there to see what he was up to.
But they started to do cut ins in filming for
Eat the document, the unreleased nineteen sixty six film, and
they weren't recording music at that point. They were doing
(25:29):
these little cool little clips and surreal stuff. And you
can see some stuff from the Dylan Center on YouTube
of color footage of Richard just smiling in a snow
covered ground in Woodstock, beautiful grin and just kind of
the vibe of the era and what they were getting into.
So tiny Tim was a part of that, and he'd
(25:50):
bring his yuke over and play with Bob, and then
Robbie was up there, and then Richard and Rick showed
up when Rick found Big Pink, and that's when like
the music making started. They weren't filmmakers obviously, but that's
when the organic start of the basement tapes, I suppose,
you know, like they just started realizing, well, we're all
(26:11):
here together, let's just start jamming. But everybody liked tiny
tim and you know that eclectic kind of touched every
little bit of every genre you possibly could. So it
was what a what a happening environment right there, you know,
with everybody in Woodstock, like the true Woodstock spirit in
that in that era.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
It's just oh yeah, and you really paint what we,
you know, heard when we first heard the Basement tapes.
You paint the fact that they were just you know,
having a blast, and that's.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Really what it comes down to, you know, And you know,
I it's funny you say that because I was cognizant
of this fact. It's like, you don't want to get
too scientific about this stuff. When it comes down to it,
they were they were enjoying making music together. They had
done this Row stuff and been booed but you know
in Europe and had stuff thrown at them and flown
(27:05):
in rickety airplanes and the Hawks, I mean Richard in particular,
nineteen fifty seven, he'd been going and playing music and
really had never stopped. And they all kind of took
stock and enjoyed each other's company and just the music
obviously just came out of everybody, which is really really
(27:27):
the magical part of the basement tapes is just the
natural love of each other and love of the music
they're creating.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
The book addresses Richard's personal struggles with addiction and inner turmoil.
How did you approach these topics, which are sensitive topics
while still so brilliantly celebrating his artistry and humanity?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Thank you for that, buzz was. I struggled at points
because this was a reality, but I wanted to My
goal when I started the whole project was to dispel
the narrative that this is who Richard was, and really
I wanted to bring out the humanity in him and
(28:15):
know that it could happen at any of this thing.
This isn't like, this wasn't a unique thing to Richard,
and I kind of felt like over the years it
was like when Richard was brought up, it was like
this happened because he drank or because he did this,
and it's part and parcel for who he was. But
like I had alluded to earlier, I kind of wanted
(28:36):
to focus on the music and then let his situation
kind of the biography kind of develop on its own
without focusing. And as you know, you've read a number
of rock and roll books. Some of them focus on
the stuff that's salacious, you know, and that just didn't
(28:57):
didn't appeal to me. And I think because I backed
into it Richard's story of like I saw that I
knew from reading everything that he had had issues. I
was like, I don't think I needed to belabor that fact.
So it was a delicate balance. And I told some
of his family members, I go, obviously, these are things
that happened, and some of them were very candid about
things that Richard did. But I didn't feel like I
(29:20):
needed to pound it into the ground. I really wanted,
you know, we know what happened. Oddly enough, I thought
the book would end differently, and I say that part serious,
you know, when when I got to the end of
the book, I'm like, really, there's not more, you know.
And that's one of the that is the heartbreaking thing.
I've had some people comment to me, you know, it's
(29:41):
going to be a sad book, and I was like,
there's a lot of joy in the book, you know.
I don't want it to be sad. I want it
to be Wow. What a talented guy who was human
like all of us and face some issues that he
could not defeat, and I hope that I balanced those
things equally. I really really focused on doing that.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
I believe you did. For sure, I really believe you did.
So let's go to some particular songs. I'll list some
of my favorites. There's so many favorites, and I'll get
your reflection on some of these songs that either Richard
you know, rode or took the singing lead on. So
(30:24):
one that he didn't write, but it's one of my
favorites is Rock and Share.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, And you know I mentioned in the book that Richard,
in addition to being a songwriter, in my opinion, is
one of the best interpreters ever. And you can see
that from the Hawks all the way through. And he
easily made songs his and you can see on the
(30:50):
Festival Express there's a really beautiful performance of rock and
Share that the band does I believe in Calgary. And
he takes the words that weren't necessarily his, but you know,
you believe it. It's like with King Harvest. He could
slide into character, and I think that comes from his
immersion into the blues. You can he could slide into
(31:11):
this character's shoes and you're convinced, you know, and rock
and share. It's one of those things you really wonder
as far as melody, what Richard contributed, because when you
listen to Richard a lot, you know, like anything like
a fingerprint, there's things you feel that like are his,
(31:33):
you know, trademark roles or little core changes or little
little melodic plays that he would use. And you hear
it and you're like, wow, you can't tell. You're like,
whose song is this? Because it certainly sounds like Richard's
in that case, you know, So yeah, I think, I think,
I think one of Robbie's finest lyrics and one of
Richard's most incredible vocal vocal approaches of band era for sure.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
For sure another uh impassioned lead vocal performances on the
song The Shape I'm In.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, And that's one you know that it kind of
the reverse like that became Richard's song, you know, and
everybody's like, oh man, this this this guy's singing about himself,
when we all in actuality we know Robbie was writing
about himself, no matter what he says later. And I'm
(32:28):
not going to disagree with with Robbie. You know, he
wrote the song but it wasn't just this is a
song about Richard. They were all going through the same stuff,
and that's part of the thing. I also wanted not
to go off, but I wanted to focus on was
you know, Richard wasn't the only guy that was having
issues in that band. They all dealt with issues, and
(32:49):
I think that song kind of sums it up. But
by the end of his life, I think Richard was
was over it, probably reading the book, you know, one
of the last the last show, he'd said to his wife,
He's like, I'm I don't want to play it anymore.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
I'm done.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
I need more, you know, there was more that needed
to happen. So but obviously you can't that song, whether
it's from Richard's Rhodes Gars Lowry, I mean, it's there's
nothing like it, you know, there's really nothing else. It's
like this mo dittily crossed with country funk. There's nothing
(33:24):
like that song. So you couldn't pick a better one
to be you know, have Richard attached.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
To and then music from Big Pink, The Quintessential I
shall be released.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
And if you listen to those basement recordings, you can
hear the genesis of the band's version, you know, and
because in the in the basement they're doing three part
harmonies and you could hear Richard's falsetto on the very
top of Bob and then all of a sudden, when
you listen to the studio version, you're like, oh, I mean,
(33:56):
they just knew that they had something with this guy,
with these vocals. I mean, and again it's one of
those songs where you're like, wow, this had to have
been written for him. But you know, it's a Dylan lyric,
and it's now it's become like synonymous with so many things,
you know, so many all star jams, there so many
(34:16):
performances that close with that, because it's just such an
amazing song. And again, Richard made it his own, and
that's really though. He used it to great effect on
a number of songs on music from Big Pink, his
falsetto on that It's hard to hear the song with
anything but that, you know, at least for me anyways.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Another one music by Richard manual lyrics by Robbie Robertson
is Whispering Pines.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, and I mean, and I say this in the book,
especially the mid section where Levon and Richard do the
calm response. I personally feel that's like one of the
defining moments of the band's entire discography. And Richard he
wrote that song, and Bellows wrote and would stock in
George Bellow's old house under under Mountain cat Skills an
(35:08):
artist home, completely fitting, and that was one of those songs,
and we could get into the collaboration. The missed opportunities
for Robbie and Richard to really take their collaboration to
the highest levels, but that song seemed the perfect marriage.
You know, Richard was this melodicist who always he just
(35:28):
had he had, He's just music coming out of him.
He would get stuck on words. And Robbie one of
the best lyricists you know, in rock music then and
I still feel that way today. And when you marry
those things. And Robbie said in his memoir that you know,
Richard came in, he was just stuck, couldn't couldn't get
(35:48):
the theme. Like music he had, he just couldn't get
the words. So Robbie took took it on vacation, came
back and there we go. But I mean it kind
of again, it kind of collaborates. It's the best that
both of them have to offer. And then you throw
in Levon singing with Richard, which is one of the
best things in the world, and Garth tying it all together,
(36:12):
and it's like, I, you know, people say King Harvest,
which I agree with, I think with spring Pine's as
far as for Richard is doesn't get much better.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
And then I could go on and on, of course.
And then another one which you know, co written with
Bob Dylan is and then the opening track from Music
from Big Pink, Tears of Rage.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, and another one that was that was you know,
cultivated from those basement sessions. And I've mentioned this to
other people, you know, in Robbie's memoir, he says, I
feel like that was the point where I saw Richard's
songwriting like a send to this new place. And obviously
everyone felt that way to have it be the opening
(36:54):
song on their debut record. And you know, there's the
Dylan connection there, which Dylan didn't co right at that
point with very many people wrote with Rick and Richard,
which is which is great. And I just you you
may or may not know the story, you know, where
they had the typewriter on the table at Big Pink
and Dylan would show up before people got up. He'd
(37:16):
make coffee and he'd just clicking a clack away. And
one of those days, Richard was sitting at the panel
and Bob goes, can you do something of those changes
for this? And Richard and his interview in nineteen eighty
four with the Woodstock time and said, you know, well,
what do you say to Bob Dylan, Like what is
this about? Like, you don't ask Bob that. So he
married the two things together and again the melody and
(37:40):
the words and those regal chord changes. It's like that
was the first thing that all of these guys that
loved the band heard. Eric concluded, you know that that
was it, that was the introduction, and I think that's
fitting and that that is again, you know, every song
you say, we're like, wow, how can you beat that?
Speaker 4 (38:01):
Yeah, and then you figure out how to beat it.
Why the band? That's why he was Richard Manuel, you
know exactly, And that's why Bob is Bob Dylan, you
know exactly when you break it down. So in closing,
I know Richard's family has you know, they supported and
have endorsed the book, and they were so helpful in
(38:23):
the process. But and you made reference to this, But
how do you think Richard would would feel about this
now that it's you know, out for the world to read.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I know he would be because he was a self
deprecating kind of guy. I think he would be embarrassed.
But I think that I like to think that he
would be proud of his accomplishments. And I've had a
couple of his family members, you know, it's it's it's hard.
It was hard for me personally. I wanted to make
(38:55):
sure that I could get as close to Richard as
I possibly could with never meeting the guy. And I
had a couple family members both say I feel Richard
in this book, And really, I mean, right now, it
gives me goosebump stuff because that really, that's all that
mattered to me, is that this tribute to him gave
(39:15):
a clear picture and for people down the line, when,
as we just talked about, someone drops the needle on
music from Big Pink and here's tears of Rage and
they're like, who is this singer? Now there's a reference
for that, you know, there's not just the last Waltz
or once we're brothers. There's a reference and you can
go through and say wow, Wow, this guy was responsible
(39:37):
for so much music and it never stopped, no matter
the narrative, it never stopped. You know, he had some
issues getting started, but it was always coming from him
and he was always doing what he could do to
make music with friends.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
Stephen T. Lewis, bravo. You did an amazing job than you.
You poured your heart and soul and it and you
let us feel the heart and soul of Richard Manuel
in the book, So everybody ought to check it out seriously.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
I certainly appreciate it and thank you for the kind words.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a
Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends
and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking
a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Lynn Hoffman
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