Have you ever wondered what it takes to navigate the tumultuous waters of the music industry, from being a celebrated musician to a powerful executive? Join host Buzz Knight in this captivating episode of takin' a walk, where he sits down with the legendary Derek Shulman, the former frontman of the iconic progressive rock band Gentle Giant. Derek opens up about his fascinating new book, Giant Steps, which chronicles his incredible journey through music history, offering a treasure trove of inside stories of musicians that will inspire both fans and aspiring artists alike.
Derek Shulman’s contributions to the music world are nothing short of remarkable. He shares the pivotal moments that shaped his career, including the bold decision to sign Bon Jovi when few dared to take the risk. This episode is packed with inspiring music stories that showcase the essence of music storytelling and highlight the importance of authenticity in the industry. Buzz and Derek discuss the unique sound of Gentle Giant, the band’s innovative approach to balancing technical musicianship with a genuine connection to their audience, and the challenges they faced along the way.
As a music executive, Derek played a crucial role in developing and promoting several legendary bands, and his insights into the indie music journey are invaluable for anyone looking to make their mark in the industry. He emphasizes that aspiring musicians should prioritize their craft over the pursuit of fame, a message that resonates deeply in today's fast-paced music landscape.
Tune in to this episode of takin' a walk for an enriching conversation filled with musician storytelling, interviews with musicians, and the stories behind some of rock music history's most memorable moments. Whether you're a fan of classic rock history or simply curious about the music journey, this episode promises to deliver engaging insights and a deeper understanding of what it means to be a part of the vibrant world of music.
Don’t miss out on this chance to walk alongside Buzz Knight and Derek Shulman as they explore the inside stories of musicians, share songwriting stories, and discuss the viral music success that has shaped our cultural landscape. Join us on iHeartPodcasts for this unforgettable episode of the Buzz Knight podcast, where music truly comes alive! </div>
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Taking a Walk on Buzsnight and this is the Taking
a Walk Podcast. Now, what do you do after you've
been the voice of one of progressive rock's most uncompromising bands.
You signed bon Jovi when no one else would take
the risk, and you help shape the sound of metal
as president of Roadrunner Records. If you're Derek Shulman, you
(00:23):
write a book about it all. Today, I'm taking a walk.
I'm so excited to be joined by Derek Shulman, former
frontman of Gentle Giant and legendary music executive who's just
released his new book, Giant Steps. Of course we like
the title of that because we're taking a walk. He
chronicles his remarkable journey from the stage to the boardroom
(00:44):
and everything in between. Derek Shulman is next, after we
pay a few bills on the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Well, here on Taking a Walk, we welcome an old
old friend, Derek Shuman. Welcome to the Take on a
Walk Podcast, Sir.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I'm really happy to be here with you. Buzz is
a bit a long time.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
So I like to open with this question which goes
all different directions, so there's no right or wrong answer
to the opening the opening salvo, as it were, Derek Shulman,
if you could take a walk with someone living or dead,
who would you take a walk with and where would
you take that walk with him?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Oh? Wow, what a question that is. Okay, I'm gonna
say something which is very important to me. I would
take a walk with my younger brother who passed away
a couple of years ago. He was my best friend
as well as my sibling, and he was my musical
(01:51):
partner in both Simon Dupery and General Giant and Post
General Giant when we did things together with a catalog
and we were we were almost twins, I mean, and
you know, it was very sad that he succumbed to
cancer a couple of years ago. So that's that's my
the I thought of all the other people that I
(02:13):
admire or or have been influential in my life, but
that's the one I would love to take a walk
with today.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Well, I want to go back to the beginning when
you first got impacted by music. Do you remember the
moment that it smacked you that you knew you'd have
a life of music, whether as a musician or as
an executive.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Probably when as soon as I was able to walk
because my father was a professional jazz musician and he
was a trumpeter, and and he was first of all
an amazing musician. He played every night of the week
(03:00):
and come home in late night. And then when he
came home, he bring home some musicians and play for
himself in the front room until a little hours of
the morning. So music was always around the house. My
mother loved music as well, so music and musical instruments
were always around. So I guess you know, the idea
(03:22):
of having music in my life was always there. But
I do remember the time. I remember this two two
period of the time when I first heard the Beatles
on the radio in nineteen sixty two, I think Loved
Me Do came on the radio. I remember hearing that
(03:43):
and coming into school and saying to a couple of
friends who are into new music, did you just hear
that amazing song by the Beatles, Love Me Do? And
they said, yeah, yeah, what is that? And they changed
everything for in England. This was for they changed music,
They changed the culture, They changed the world for kids
(04:04):
who were into music, who loved music, And had it
not been for the Beatles, I think that our lives
would not be the way that they turned out, certainly
my life, didn't you know. And then when when that happened,
my sister had already given me her uh my elder
sister given me a Spanish guitar. So I learned, you know,
(04:24):
a few chords. And when I heard the Beatles, they said,
I'm going to put a band together. And I had
a couple of school friends who were, you know, into
playing music, and I recruited those, you know, two or
three school friends and my brother Ray, who was who
was a violinist, who was a classical violinist, and he
(04:45):
was actually being groomed to be in the National Youth
Walker served Great Britain. He was that good. And I
said to Ray, uh, you know we were putting a
band together. Well, he just joined us on the violin
play rhythm violin it which which is the craziest thing.
So we started becoming a group. And it wasn't it
(05:05):
wasn't the group that became cybing the Prey Big Sound.
It was just a group listening to R and B
and soul music which we listened to on American Force
of Network. And then we whittled it down and my
brother Ray took over the guitar and ultimately we became
a group called Sigambe Dupre and the Big Sound, and
(05:27):
my elder brother joined I'd like a low story short,
which is one what I'm doing, and we were. We
were quite popular, actually very popular all over UK and
even in Europe before we had a record deal. And
my sister was married to a BBC producer and she said,
(05:49):
you know, my brothers are doing really well. Why do
you take a listen to them and see what you
can do? And hen is John King of the name was,
and he came to see us and said, boy, you
guys are going to how about me managing you? We
said sure, so he did and he got us an
audition at Abbey Road and we went up to em
(06:14):
I and Abbey Road in front of us where all
the staff produced at George Martin, you know we're Gri Paramore,
you know, Jeff Emeric, etc. There were twenty five producers
there and we we went on stage and we thought
it was just for a song or two and they said, okay,
(06:35):
play your set, and we thought, what played the whole set?
Two hour set? So we literally, you know, played our
set in front of like these guys sitting there like this,
you know, and we played our set and they said
thank you, and we went back into the van and
went back to Port that's where we lived. We thought,
do we get a deal? Did we not get a deal?
(06:56):
A couple of days later, our manager John King called
us said you have a record view with part of
our records and we were on our way.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Wow, that was the beginning of the ride.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, that was a big able to ride. But you know,
I do remember for that a little episode which is
in the book actually, but when I you know, I
was I had a scholarship to a grammar school in England.
You know, that's that's where you're streamed to be the
professionals and the elite of the English society back then.
(07:30):
I mean there's a very class system, you know, class
based system then and you're expected to be you know,
the politicians, the doctors, the lawyers. And I remember this
this schoolmaster going around when in the second or third
year we're fourteen or thirteen, and you know, each pupil
(07:51):
would say, I'm going to be a professor, I'm going
to be a doctor, I'm going to be in politics.
And I said, I'm going to be a rock star.
And in the class, you know, kind of convulsive laughter,
and I looked around, and then the school battle said,
don't be silly, Shulman, that that's impossible, one in a
million that will happen to But you know that's so,
(08:14):
you know, think of other things. And I said, okay,
but I'm going to be a rock star. And two
and a half years later I came back. I was
still at school, but I had my first single out
and the same master was asking for my autography. So
there you are.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Wow. Now go back to George Martin and Jeff Emerck,
who you mentioned that were among that group that you
had to play your your set before. Did you subsequently
after that have any interaction with with those two gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Oh? Absolutely, I mean Jeff Emrick was our engineer for
several of our singles, and George Martin engineered a couple
of our singles. We were in abbey Road a lot.
I mean we for the time in Simon Dupree. We'd
go up to Abbey Road and you'd have three hour sessions.
(09:13):
Every band who was signed to any EMI label, whether
it was Parlophone, Columbia, I can't remember what is maybe
HMV I can't remember, would have three hour sessions. So yeah,
Jeff Emrick was strange enough. He was the engineer on
our first ever single, I See the Light this is
(09:33):
in England and our very last record as Gentle Giant
in LA when we did Civilian. So Jeff Embric was
the bookends of our recording career if you like. Yeah,
so we were there with Jeff and George Martin and
David Parrimore and all these and Alan Parsons and et cetera,
(09:55):
et cetera. They were all part of the same learning experience,
if you like, for all of us.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
This book is so incredible. It's such an incredible life
that you are leading. Take me to the beginning. Three
brothers deciding to form one of the most complex progressive
rock bands ever. What was that dinner table conversation? Ultimately, like, well,
it was it was you know, we were.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
We didn't know what we were going to be. Honestly,
we just knew that we didn't want to do. What
we had been doing is being a pop bad but
a really good one, but playing a circuit where we're
ultimately playing to an audience that just wanted to hear
the is we were getting better musically. Also we were
listening to stuff that was a little more complex anyway.
(10:47):
And in fact, one of the one of our influences
influencers was a keyboard player who played with us for
a little while named reg Dwight, who said, you guys
should listen to some stuff that's going on out on
the West coast of America, like Frank Zappa, like Miles Davis,
(11:10):
like Spirit. And in fact, when we told Regg that,
in fact, we're going to break up, as he because
he thought the Showman Brothers were pretty damn good musicians,
and we thought he was pretty damn good himself because
he played with us for you know, as a as
a sub for several months. We went up to where
(11:32):
he lived in Watford, he just met Bernie. We told
him we're going to break the group up and start
something new, and he said, I'd love to hear what
you're doing and perhaps even join, and so Be and
Ray went up to his house where he's living with
his mom still and heard his songs like Skylron, Pitsion,
et cetera. And you know, we we thought they were great,
(11:55):
but not really what we were looking for. So we
went back to Portsmouth. I told him, you know, this
is not really where we're at. Thankfully for him, because
you know, six months later he was out and John
and he was a massive star, and six months later
we were a Gentle Giant and looking for a gig.
So so, but he was influential as saying, you guys
(12:18):
should listen to other things, and we did, and that's
why we decided to break that band up, Simon Duprie,
and do something. We didn't know where it was going
to go. But we were lucky enough to have a manager,
a guy called Jerry Brown, who believed in us musically
and personally to subsidize us finding other musicians and becoming
(12:43):
a group called Gentle Giant.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I think you know this, but the progressive rock community
to this day is absolutely you know, rabid. They so
I know there's so many of those rog rockers who
were with litening to this, taking this all in. But
you know what a mark progressive rock and Gentle Giant
to certainly you know, have made on the music community.
(13:10):
Gentle Giant had this reputation I recall from being really
a musician's musicians kind of band, incredibly technical, complex time signatures,
but you were also clearly trying to connect with audiences.
How did you balance those two goals.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Well, that's something that was very important to us. We yes,
we pushed ourselves. You know, we were lucky enough to
find you know, the first member that we found as
we put the band together was Carriemneir, who had a
degree in composition and percussion from the Royal Kadet of
Music and that that was incredibly influential to us. Then
(13:56):
we found Gary Green, you know, a brilliant blues rock player.
Ultimately went through a couple of drummers, and John Wellers
was you know, a superb drummer. But we we loved
to uh push ourselves musically first, and we didn't. Again,
it was a combination of different influences in the band,
the band's members, but we also enjoyed pushing ourselves and
(14:19):
we had fun doing that, and we loved to when
we went out on stage. We enjoyed ourselves on stage
and wanted to have our enjoyment translate to the audience.
So we wanted to entertain the audience with our music
and not just you know, play playing music, which is
(14:41):
again we're not We're not the national lead film or
the London Philharmonic. We're a band that was having fun,
enjoy and fun in what we were doing, and we
wanted to see smiles on the audience's faces as opposed
to people who were listening to a serious class well
class old bad or whatever. So that was important, was there.
(15:02):
I think the the apprenticeship of Cyber Dupree and the
Big Sound helped us in that in that way, having
been out there and been a band that entertained as
well as playing his having that ability to entertain as
well as play wealth, So I think that was important
to us.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
We'll be right back with more of the Taken a
Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Obviously, with the writing of Giant Steps, you've had a
chance to really reflect on the legacy of Gentle Giant.
What's your reflection of it.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
It was the best ten years of my life, you know.
I could reflect on all the many, many highs of
me being in different bands and also being an executive
or whatever that means, and having been involved in citing
some of the biggest bands in the world, and that
(16:05):
was an incredible that and still is an incredible thing
to be part of. But as I look back. You know,
there's nothing like the theory of being on stage and
knowing that you're doing something that it's yours and you're
you're you're projecting who you are, and having an audience
that that is enjoying and loving what you're doing and
(16:29):
wanting to hear more of what, who and what you are,
and and that's something that is very important. And I
it says one gig. I remember in particular, it was
it was like nineteen seventy five, seventy six at the
Shrine Auditorium in La We sold it out, you know,
eight thousand people, you know, and I remember we were
on fire. We were really good at this skig. I
(16:50):
just remember that we were playing our asses often and
we did our set and the lights went up, and
we went and went down, and we went out for
an encore, which is you know, generally the case, and
we finished our two songs, three songs on core. The
lights went up and the crowd would leave. They refused
(17:12):
to leave, so we thought, man, you know, we better
do something else. So we had a couple of other
spare songs that this is our repertoire. So we said, Dann,
we better do some more because they won't to leave,
even though the lights were up. So we went out
there and played it a couple of other songs. The
crowd went crazy, but they would not leave. That was
(17:34):
the second old core and we didn't have any other
more material. Well, he literally had nothing rehearse. So John Weather,
it's our drummer. We used to you know, the tune
up and play before, you know, as as sound check,
you know, a couple of yeah, a couple of songs.
And we played in the midnight hour. You know that
(17:54):
That was our you know, our you know, workout song,
and so listen, we haven't got anything else. Let's play
in the mid nine hours. So we went out there
and said, guys, here we go. We're going to play
in the mid nine hour for you, and that's what
we played as the last encore of the Shrine and
even that went down really well and still then in
(18:14):
the crowd they started to leave then. But boy, that
was I remember that like it was yesterday, that they
just refused to leave, and that kind of feeling. If
you could bottle that and sell it, it would be
worth billions for me anyway.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
So you made this incredible transition from being on stage
to being behind the desk. How did that amazing transition
occur and what prompted that decision?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Well, it certainly wasn't a Plan A or even Plan B.
When we stopped the band, I was thinking about do
I want to produce bands? Well not really I went
into the studio, or do I want to manage or
do I want to go back into a another band
that was not on the radar. I got a call
from a friend who I do from England who was
(19:07):
now working at a company called PolyGram, and he gave
me a call. I was living in LA at the time. Uh,
and he said what are you up to? And I said, well,
I'm deciding whether to produce this band or whatever, but
I'm not sure what. And he said, well, we're putting
this new department together at PolyGram called the Walk Department,
and I've this guy who's running it. I've told him
(19:28):
about you, and knowing that you know a guy called
Lee Abram said Jeff Pollard really well at their big
fans of yours, which you know, well should should touch
you a little bit there that you'd be great at
the company because also you're you know, you're a musical.
So I said Okay, Well, he said, what do you
(19:49):
come to New York and meet this guy Jerry jeff
He was head of the department, And so I did.
I went out to New York and met Jerry and
got offered a job in initially promotion and artist development,
and that was my first entree, if you like, into
the the Darth Vader side of the business.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I do remember Jerry Jeffy for sure. I'm sure a
lot of these names that you're gonna pass by I remember.
So what did your experience as a performing artist teach
you about being an A and R executive that you know,
maybe someone who had never been on stage wouldn't understand.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Interesting thing was it, towards the end of General Giant,
myself and my brother Ray, more me than Ray, took
over the management of the band. I think that in
retrospect it was a mistake, but it probably helped me
get a less more of a sort of an eyeball
for what happened in the business side side of it.
(20:55):
And in fact, when I was in the band Mere,
Ray produced another band out of Pittsburgh called the Grenadi Brothers,
and I got the record deal with A and M,
and I got theber tour with Van Halen. I mean
that was that was even while I was in a band,
which you know, this probably didn't do the General Giant
(21:16):
very well. I mean we were I was probably doing
too many things and not focusing as much as I
should have been on what I should which is at
the band. However, it gave me kind of an apprenticeship
into what what was an executive world, if you like. Uh.
And that first day I remember at PolyGram when I started,
(21:37):
I just remember, you know, going from office to office
and realizing that realizing something. I knew that this wasn't
the music business. This is a business of music, and
every office had their own agenda, every office had their
own priority, you know, and you had to have a collective,
you know, a team to make your band work. And
(21:59):
I wish i'd known that in General Giant. I kind
of did, but I didn't have the ability or knowledge
or whatever it was to make it work for General Giant.
But I understood it there. And I remember the first
day I called my wife and said, I can't do this.
You know, this is this is not for me, this
this is not a world I want to be in,
and she said, don't worry. If you stay the course,
(22:21):
you know, you'll you'll you'll you'll get it, You'll find out.
And I did, you know? And I eventually, after a
year or so of doing promotion, if you liked and Coley,
you know the radio stations that you're familiar with, to
get some of the bands that I didn't really think
was what had a chance, like the Jam that Jerry
(22:44):
loved and and radio Proverbs didn't love, and to get
them on the radio, I moved into A and R,
which was much more my liking. And it became you know,
I became a A and R man.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
You signed bon Jovi when nobody else would essentially touch them.
Can you walk us through that moment? What did you
see that others didn't see?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Well? I heard this song run Away on the radio.
There was a sampler which that w App I think
put out. And when I heard this song, it was,
you know, in the background when I was doing my work,
and I said, well, who is this in this song?
At the very same time approximately I heard the song,
(23:32):
an attorney from Philadelphia came and said, there's a kid
called John bon Jovi who just put this song out
called Runaway. But he's got another four tracks and he's
putting a band together. And so I brought him into
my office and heard these songs that that daddy's a
great wherein who are they they said, well, they're he's
(23:55):
working at the power station with his second cousin, Tony,
but he wants to put a band together and this
song is one of the songs that will be on
the first record hopefully. I said, well, let me meet
this guy to John bon Jovi. So I said, you know,
to this guy, off the man, bring him in. And
(24:18):
John came into my office and as he walked into
the office, all the girls' heads turned and they were
they were they were slavering. Okay, this is a pretty
young guy. But he came into my office. I said, John,
you know, I've heard these demos and I've heard the
this track run Away, which is it's just great. I
mean it's it's it's making a lot of noise. What
(24:40):
is it you want to do? And he looked at
me and we chatted a little bit before, but that said,
you know, that was you know, I said, what is it?
And who who is it you want to be? And
who is it that you want to what is it
you want to want out of your musical life. And
he said to me, full on with with absolute complete seriousness,
(25:01):
he said, I want to be as big or bigger
than Elvis. And this is a kid that just had
a song, one song on the radio, not even with
a band, with a pickup band at the power station.
And I believed him one, he said. I believed him
because I saw in him a drive that is again,
(25:22):
if you could bottle someone something and sell it, it's
worth a million million. And he had that. He had
that drive and I saw it in his face. I
saw it in his eyes, and I saw it in
his heart. And he said, Okay, this kid has got it,
and yeah, he's putting his band together. And I said,
do a couple of shows for me, so I want
to make sure that what you have will translate. And
(25:44):
we saw a couple of shows. Richie had just begun
the guitarist. The first show was was okay, it wasn't
great at the Copacabana in New York. And then they
did a rehearsal show for the Department at Sir and
it was good. It wasn't great, but it was good.
But I saw in Richie and John something that was
(26:07):
very special. So I signed the tour record deal and
we went this is you Know with with Tony and
put the first album out. Bon Job and run Away
was put out as a national hit single and it
did very well. I mean it wasn't a top ten hit,
but it did hit the top twenty I think, and
(26:28):
got them on the map. I introduced them to a
guy called Dot McGee who became business manager. They went
out there and John and the band worked their asses off,
and then then we put another album out. I'll just
give you my quick history up until the Big Break,
if you like. The next album was done in Philadelphia,
(26:48):
and it wasn't It wasn't a very pleasant experience, to
be perfectly honest. It was the wrong producer. He came
this a Lance Quinn who worked with him in the
power station in Philadelphia. That was not a pleasant experience.
The album that came out was kind of like a
It was a step up from what the first album was.
(27:11):
It was kind of a step aside. But meanwhile they
were playing everywhere and then we decided, okay, what are
we going to do here? Because John and the band
they made a lot of strikes in their live show.
Now they had to bring it home with their records
and I said, John, what about having a co writer?
Ordinarily about if I say that to a band. They
(27:33):
kicked me out and said get the hell out of here.
But John was absolutely pragmatic. I mean he said, listen,
if someone could help out get me to where I'm
going to go, I'm up for it. Who do you think?
And I got in touch with the guy with Gene
Sillons because I saw on his albums I saw, you know, Simmons,
(27:55):
Stanley and Child and I said, gee, who's this guy Child?
And he said do you remember this band Desmond Child
in Rouge? I said sure, yeah, we were on Capitol Records.
It was the same label as General Giant. He said, well,
Desmond Child is a great songwriter. He wrote just look
it up and with me, and you should meet with
him because he's a great writer. So I met Desmond
(28:17):
and I said, Desmond, I've got this band Bond Joby.
He said, sure, I know the band and they're looking
to hopefully write with a co writer. Would you like
to meet them? And he said sure. So I actually
put John and Rochie together with Desmond and I wrote
together and I heard the demos of this album, which
(28:38):
became slippy when we went. And then I said, Okay,
who are we going to record with? And I toured
the lover Boy album and Saga album out of Vancouver
with Bruce Fairburn and Bob Rock and I got in
touch with those guys and I said, we've got this band,
bon Zobi and they said, well we know the band,
said there's some demos, and when set in the demos,
(29:01):
they said, we'd love to do it. We went up
to Vancouver to cut to the chase Slabria. When went
was recorded, we came back to New York, completed the team,
and I knew then absolutely one herb setting you then
that bon Jovi was going to be as big as Elvis.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
What a great story, my god, amazing stories in this book.
Your career would then take you to be president of
Roadrunner Records and just you know, creating an amazing brand
and road Runner and Occo before that. Yes, yeah, I mean,
just are there bands or artists that you go Why
(29:45):
did I pass on them?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
You? Well, not hardly any Only one that I remember
that I wasn't sure of and I did pass and
that was Beck of all things, remember him coming in
and playing the Loser, and I didn't didn't like it
that much, you know, it sounded weird to be you know,
(30:07):
and I thought about and I played it. You know,
I think that was an that coat, uh and you
know I passed on it, and look, I was wrong.
I'd like that was a big mistake and beg was
was is still you know, a very creative forced and
that's a great song. I don't know, maybe I was
in a bad mood that they are or didn't have
(30:28):
any sleep or that night, but I missed that one.
But for the most part, there was It wasn't any
other band that I said I should have could have.
There were a couple of bands that I wish had
made it because they were that they were good enough
to make it. But for the most part, just about
every band that I signed and became successful, they weren't
(30:51):
being chased by other band other labels. They were bands
that were doing things which was theirs. And that's something
that was important to me. That this is whether it's
bon Jovi or Cinderella or Pantera or Dream Theater or
all these bands, no other label would chase them. They
were doing something which which was in this world I
(31:13):
used it many times. They were authentic, they were doing
something which was theirs and no one else's. And for
the most part, labels would chase bands that were already big.
You know, let's let's go chase you know, the West
Coast to hair hair band thinking, the Hollywood, you know,
the sunset strip bands. I never got involved in that world,
and I never got involved in chasing the next thing
(31:35):
because it was big. I got involved with bands that
were doing their own thing. And I think for the
most part, the bands that I signed, I feel fortunate
that they're still around and I still have careers. And
that's the key to a band that's authentic and dub
it and do their own thing, because they ultimately will
have a long career. And I'm glad that when I
(31:56):
listened to you know, when I just on the phone
to to the guys a Dream Theater, you know they're
up for you know, Grammy this year. You know that
they were you know, they're still around. Bon Jovi is
still around, you know, the Slipknot is still around, nickel
Back is still around. All these bands that I sign,
(32:19):
they're still around after thirty odd years, so they have
careers and the reason why is because they were doing
their own thing, not copying anybody else's.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
In closing, boy, I could talk to you forever. Really,
any advice to the young Derek Shulman that you wish
you could have maybe given you that would have even
made you more of a force. I don't know how
you could have been more of a force. But is
there any advice you would have given yourself back then?
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Well, I shouldn't my own advice. What I said to
said to the school teacher, I'm going to be a
rock star, and I stuck to it. And I think
what I would say today if you're a musician, certainly
because the the the gates, the gatekeepers and and the
gates are so hard to get through in this day
and age where it was a little different when I
(33:15):
was an executive. And certainly you know a band and
band member because you played and you you became popular
because you've got a lot of fans. What I would
say to a musician is, don't look at analytics. Don't
don't don't look at your uh, your likes or your
your your views on YouTube or whatever. Be fucking great
(33:39):
at what you do and do something that's yours and
do something that is not anyone else's and get an
audience and play and play and play until until you
have something that you build a fan base that is
yours and no one else's, and that way you'll make
it somehow or other, even though there's there's so many
(34:00):
other things in your way. But you know, it's hard
to do that in this day and age. When I
was doing it, there were a lot more places to play,
clubs to hone your skills. But as far as the
recording business is concerned, I feel badly and I feel
a little sad that the younger generation looks for fame
(34:22):
and money first as opposed to you know, and likes
and views, rather than be really good at what they do.
Just just be really really good, not really good. Be
great at what you do and don't look for likes
or views or you know, five seconds of fun riffs
(34:44):
or or silly moves on TikTok. That's all well and good,
but that won't get you a career. The bands I
talked to and the band I was in, Gentle Giant,
fifty years later, is still it's I want to say,
it's popular, but just well in some respects more popular
in Today's More World, and that it was when we
(35:06):
were on the road. The hip hop community is has
taken to our band, and last week we were Songwriters
of the Year at BMI because Travis Scott I sampled
Proclamation and it was the most played song on Spotify
last year. So that says a lot about what I'm
saying here. Be authentical and be yourself and be great.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Amen. Derek Shulman, would you come back sometime on Taking
a Walk.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
I'd love to of course.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Oh my God, giant steps the book. We always talk
about the President, we talk about music history. You are
music history. You've created it. And I'm so honored that
you came on to talk to me Derek. And it's
nice to see you again.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
It's a pleasure to see you again. Mad, great to
see you.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a Walk.
Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow
us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk
is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever
you get your podcasts.
Taking a Walk on Buzsnight and this is the Taking
a Walk Podcast. Now, what do you do after you've
been the voice of one of progressive rock's most uncompromising bands.
You signed bon Jovi when no one else would take
the risk, and you help shape the sound of metal
as president of Roadrunner Records. If you're Derek Shulman, you
(00:23):
write a book about it all. Today, I'm taking a walk.
I'm so excited to be joined by Derek Shulman, former
frontman of Gentle Giant and legendary music executive who's just
released his new book, Giant Steps. Of course we like
the title of that because we're taking a walk. He
chronicles his remarkable journey from the stage to the boardroom
(00:44):
and everything in between. Derek Shulman is next, after we
pay a few bills on the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Well, here on Taking a Walk, we welcome an old
old friend, Derek Shuman. Welcome to the Take on a
Walk Podcast, Sir.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I'm really happy to be here with you. Buzz is
a bit a long time.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
So I like to open with this question which goes
all different directions, so there's no right or wrong answer
to the opening the opening salvo, as it were, Derek Shulman,
if you could take a walk with someone living or dead,
who would you take a walk with and where would
you take that walk with him?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Oh? Wow, what a question that is. Okay, I'm gonna
say something which is very important to me. I would
take a walk with my younger brother who passed away
a couple of years ago. He was my best friend
as well as my sibling, and he was my musical
(01:51):
partner in both Simon Dupery and General Giant and Post
General Giant when we did things together with a catalog
and we were we were almost twins, I mean, and
you know, it was very sad that he succumbed to
cancer a couple of years ago. So that's that's my
the I thought of all the other people that I
(02:13):
admire or or have been influential in my life, but
that's the one I would love to take a walk
with today.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Well, I want to go back to the beginning when
you first got impacted by music. Do you remember the
moment that it smacked you that you knew you'd have
a life of music, whether as a musician or as
an executive.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Probably when as soon as I was able to walk
because my father was a professional jazz musician and he
was a trumpeter, and and he was first of all
an amazing musician. He played every night of the week
(03:00):
and come home in late night. And then when he
came home, he bring home some musicians and play for
himself in the front room until a little hours of
the morning. So music was always around the house. My
mother loved music as well, so music and musical instruments
were always around. So I guess you know, the idea
(03:22):
of having music in my life was always there. But
I do remember the time. I remember this two two
period of the time when I first heard the Beatles
on the radio in nineteen sixty two, I think Loved
Me Do came on the radio. I remember hearing that
(03:43):
and coming into school and saying to a couple of
friends who are into new music, did you just hear
that amazing song by the Beatles, Love Me Do? And
they said, yeah, yeah, what is that? And they changed
everything for in England. This was for they changed music,
They changed the culture, They changed the world for kids
(04:04):
who were into music, who loved music, And had it
not been for the Beatles, I think that our lives
would not be the way that they turned out, certainly
my life, didn't you know. And then when when that happened,
my sister had already given me her uh my elder
sister given me a Spanish guitar. So I learned, you know,
(04:24):
a few chords. And when I heard the Beatles, they said,
I'm going to put a band together. And I had
a couple of school friends who were, you know, into
playing music, and I recruited those, you know, two or
three school friends and my brother Ray, who was who
was a violinist, who was a classical violinist, and he
(04:45):
was actually being groomed to be in the National Youth
Walker served Great Britain. He was that good. And I
said to Ray, uh, you know we were putting a
band together. Well, he just joined us on the violin
play rhythm violin it which which is the craziest thing.
So we started becoming a group. And it wasn't it
(05:05):
wasn't the group that became cybing the Prey Big Sound.
It was just a group listening to R and B
and soul music which we listened to on American Force
of Network. And then we whittled it down and my
brother Ray took over the guitar and ultimately we became
a group called Sigambe Dupre and the Big Sound, and
(05:27):
my elder brother joined I'd like a low story short,
which is one what I'm doing, and we were. We
were quite popular, actually very popular all over UK and
even in Europe before we had a record deal. And
my sister was married to a BBC producer and she said,
(05:49):
you know, my brothers are doing really well. Why do
you take a listen to them and see what you
can do? And hen is John King of the name was,
and he came to see us and said, boy, you
guys are going to how about me managing you? We
said sure, so he did and he got us an
audition at Abbey Road and we went up to em
(06:14):
I and Abbey Road in front of us where all
the staff produced at George Martin, you know we're Gri Paramore,
you know, Jeff Emeric, etc. There were twenty five producers
there and we we went on stage and we thought
it was just for a song or two and they said, okay,
(06:35):
play your set, and we thought, what played the whole set?
Two hour set? So we literally, you know, played our
set in front of like these guys sitting there like this,
you know, and we played our set and they said
thank you, and we went back into the van and
went back to Port that's where we lived. We thought,
do we get a deal? Did we not get a deal?
(06:56):
A couple of days later, our manager John King called
us said you have a record view with part of
our records and we were on our way.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Wow, that was the beginning of the ride.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, that was a big able to ride. But you know,
I do remember for that a little episode which is
in the book actually, but when I you know, I
was I had a scholarship to a grammar school in England.
You know, that's that's where you're streamed to be the
professionals and the elite of the English society back then.
(07:30):
I mean there's a very class system, you know, class
based system then and you're expected to be you know,
the politicians, the doctors, the lawyers. And I remember this
this schoolmaster going around when in the second or third
year we're fourteen or thirteen, and you know, each pupil
(07:51):
would say, I'm going to be a professor, I'm going
to be a doctor, I'm going to be in politics.
And I said, I'm going to be a rock star.
And in the class, you know, kind of convulsive laughter,
and I looked around, and then the school battle said,
don't be silly, Shulman, that that's impossible, one in a
million that will happen to But you know that's so,
(08:14):
you know, think of other things. And I said, okay,
but I'm going to be a rock star. And two
and a half years later I came back. I was
still at school, but I had my first single out
and the same master was asking for my autography. So
there you are.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Wow. Now go back to George Martin and Jeff Emerck,
who you mentioned that were among that group that you
had to play your your set before. Did you subsequently
after that have any interaction with with those two gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Oh? Absolutely, I mean Jeff Emrick was our engineer for
several of our singles, and George Martin engineered a couple
of our singles. We were in abbey Road a lot.
I mean we for the time in Simon Dupree. We'd
go up to Abbey Road and you'd have three hour sessions.
(09:13):
Every band who was signed to any EMI label, whether
it was Parlophone, Columbia, I can't remember what is maybe
HMV I can't remember, would have three hour sessions. So yeah,
Jeff Emrick was strange enough. He was the engineer on
our first ever single, I See the Light this is
(09:33):
in England and our very last record as Gentle Giant
in LA when we did Civilian. So Jeff Embric was
the bookends of our recording career if you like. Yeah,
so we were there with Jeff and George Martin and
David Parrimore and all these and Alan Parsons and et cetera,
(09:55):
et cetera. They were all part of the same learning experience,
if you like, for all of us.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
This book is so incredible. It's such an incredible life
that you are leading. Take me to the beginning. Three
brothers deciding to form one of the most complex progressive
rock bands ever. What was that dinner table conversation? Ultimately, like, well,
it was it was you know, we were.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
We didn't know what we were going to be. Honestly,
we just knew that we didn't want to do. What
we had been doing is being a pop bad but
a really good one, but playing a circuit where we're
ultimately playing to an audience that just wanted to hear
the is we were getting better musically. Also we were
listening to stuff that was a little more complex anyway.
(10:47):
And in fact, one of the one of our influences
influencers was a keyboard player who played with us for
a little while named reg Dwight, who said, you guys
should listen to some stuff that's going on out on
the West coast of America, like Frank Zappa, like Miles Davis,
(11:10):
like Spirit. And in fact, when we told Regg that,
in fact, we're going to break up, as he because
he thought the Showman Brothers were pretty damn good musicians,
and we thought he was pretty damn good himself because
he played with us for you know, as a as
a sub for several months. We went up to where
(11:32):
he lived in Watford, he just met Bernie. We told
him we're going to break the group up and start
something new, and he said, I'd love to hear what
you're doing and perhaps even join, and so Be and
Ray went up to his house where he's living with
his mom still and heard his songs like Skylron, Pitsion,
et cetera. And you know, we we thought they were great,
(11:55):
but not really what we were looking for. So we
went back to Portsmouth. I told him, you know, this
is not really where we're at. Thankfully for him, because
you know, six months later he was out and John
and he was a massive star, and six months later
we were a Gentle Giant and looking for a gig.
So so, but he was influential as saying, you guys
(12:18):
should listen to other things, and we did, and that's
why we decided to break that band up, Simon Duprie,
and do something. We didn't know where it was going
to go. But we were lucky enough to have a manager,
a guy called Jerry Brown, who believed in us musically
and personally to subsidize us finding other musicians and becoming
(12:43):
a group called Gentle Giant.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I think you know this, but the progressive rock community
to this day is absolutely you know, rabid. They so
I know there's so many of those rog rockers who
were with litening to this, taking this all in. But
you know what a mark progressive rock and Gentle Giant
to certainly you know, have made on the music community.
(13:10):
Gentle Giant had this reputation I recall from being really
a musician's musicians kind of band, incredibly technical, complex time signatures,
but you were also clearly trying to connect with audiences.
How did you balance those two goals.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Well, that's something that was very important to us. We yes,
we pushed ourselves. You know, we were lucky enough to
find you know, the first member that we found as
we put the band together was Carriemneir, who had a
degree in composition and percussion from the Royal Kadet of
Music and that that was incredibly influential to us. Then
(13:56):
we found Gary Green, you know, a brilliant blues rock player.
Ultimately went through a couple of drummers, and John Wellers
was you know, a superb drummer. But we we loved
to uh push ourselves musically first, and we didn't. Again,
it was a combination of different influences in the band,
the band's members, but we also enjoyed pushing ourselves and
(14:19):
we had fun doing that, and we loved to when
we went out on stage. We enjoyed ourselves on stage
and wanted to have our enjoyment translate to the audience.
So we wanted to entertain the audience with our music
and not just you know, play playing music, which is
(14:41):
again we're not We're not the national lead film or
the London Philharmonic. We're a band that was having fun,
enjoy and fun in what we were doing, and we
wanted to see smiles on the audience's faces as opposed
to people who were listening to a serious class well
class old bad or whatever. So that was important, was there.
(15:02):
I think the the apprenticeship of Cyber Dupree and the
Big Sound helped us in that in that way, having
been out there and been a band that entertained as
well as playing his having that ability to entertain as
well as play wealth, So I think that was important
to us.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
We'll be right back with more of the Taken a
Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Obviously, with the writing of Giant Steps, you've had a
chance to really reflect on the legacy of Gentle Giant.
What's your reflection of it.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
It was the best ten years of my life, you know.
I could reflect on all the many, many highs of
me being in different bands and also being an executive
or whatever that means, and having been involved in citing
some of the biggest bands in the world, and that
(16:05):
was an incredible that and still is an incredible thing
to be part of. But as I look back. You know,
there's nothing like the theory of being on stage and
knowing that you're doing something that it's yours and you're
you're you're projecting who you are, and having an audience
that that is enjoying and loving what you're doing and
(16:29):
wanting to hear more of what, who and what you are,
and and that's something that is very important. And I
it says one gig. I remember in particular, it was
it was like nineteen seventy five, seventy six at the
Shrine Auditorium in La We sold it out, you know,
eight thousand people, you know, and I remember we were
on fire. We were really good at this skig. I
(16:50):
just remember that we were playing our asses often and
we did our set and the lights went up, and
we went and went down, and we went out for
an encore, which is you know, generally the case, and
we finished our two songs, three songs on core. The
lights went up and the crowd would leave. They refused
(17:12):
to leave, so we thought, man, you know, we better
do something else. So we had a couple of other
spare songs that this is our repertoire. So we said, Dann,
we better do some more because they won't to leave,
even though the lights were up. So we went out
there and played it a couple of other songs. The
crowd went crazy, but they would not leave. That was
(17:34):
the second old core and we didn't have any other
more material. Well, he literally had nothing rehearse. So John Weather,
it's our drummer. We used to you know, the tune
up and play before, you know, as as sound check,
you know, a couple of yeah, a couple of songs.
And we played in the midnight hour. You know that
(17:54):
That was our you know, our you know, workout song,
and so listen, we haven't got anything else. Let's play
in the mid nine hours. So we went out there
and said, guys, here we go. We're going to play
in the mid nine hour for you, and that's what
we played as the last encore of the Shrine and
even that went down really well and still then in
(18:14):
the crowd they started to leave then. But boy, that
was I remember that like it was yesterday, that they
just refused to leave, and that kind of feeling. If
you could bottle that and sell it, it would be
worth billions for me anyway.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
So you made this incredible transition from being on stage
to being behind the desk. How did that amazing transition
occur and what prompted that decision?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Well, it certainly wasn't a Plan A or even Plan B.
When we stopped the band, I was thinking about do
I want to produce bands? Well not really I went
into the studio, or do I want to manage or
do I want to go back into a another band
that was not on the radar. I got a call
from a friend who I do from England who was
(19:07):
now working at a company called PolyGram, and he gave
me a call. I was living in LA at the time. Uh,
and he said what are you up to? And I said, well,
I'm deciding whether to produce this band or whatever, but
I'm not sure what. And he said, well, we're putting
this new department together at PolyGram called the Walk Department,
and I've this guy who's running it. I've told him
(19:28):
about you, and knowing that you know a guy called
Lee Abram said Jeff Pollard really well at their big
fans of yours, which you know, well should should touch
you a little bit there that you'd be great at
the company because also you're you know, you're a musical.
So I said Okay, Well, he said, what do you
(19:49):
come to New York and meet this guy Jerry jeff
He was head of the department, And so I did.
I went out to New York and met Jerry and
got offered a job in initially promotion and artist development,
and that was my first entree, if you like, into
the the Darth Vader side of the business.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I do remember Jerry Jeffy for sure. I'm sure a
lot of these names that you're gonna pass by I remember.
So what did your experience as a performing artist teach
you about being an A and R executive that you know,
maybe someone who had never been on stage wouldn't understand.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Interesting thing was it, towards the end of General Giant,
myself and my brother Ray, more me than Ray, took
over the management of the band. I think that in
retrospect it was a mistake, but it probably helped me
get a less more of a sort of an eyeball
for what happened in the business side side of it.
(20:55):
And in fact, when I was in the band Mere,
Ray produced another band out of Pittsburgh called the Grenadi Brothers,
and I got the record deal with A and M,
and I got theber tour with Van Halen. I mean
that was that was even while I was in a band,
which you know, this probably didn't do the General Giant
(21:16):
very well. I mean we were I was probably doing
too many things and not focusing as much as I
should have been on what I should which is at
the band. However, it gave me kind of an apprenticeship
into what what was an executive world, if you like. Uh.
And that first day I remember at PolyGram when I started,
(21:37):
I just remember, you know, going from office to office
and realizing that realizing something. I knew that this wasn't
the music business. This is a business of music, and
every office had their own agenda, every office had their
own priority, you know, and you had to have a collective,
you know, a team to make your band work. And
(21:59):
I wish i'd known that in General Giant. I kind
of did, but I didn't have the ability or knowledge
or whatever it was to make it work for General Giant.
But I understood it there. And I remember the first
day I called my wife and said, I can't do this.
You know, this is this is not for me, this
this is not a world I want to be in,
and she said, don't worry. If you stay the course,
(22:21):
you know, you'll you'll you'll you'll get it, You'll find out.
And I did, you know? And I eventually, after a
year or so of doing promotion, if you liked and Coley,
you know the radio stations that you're familiar with, to
get some of the bands that I didn't really think
was what had a chance, like the Jam that Jerry
(22:44):
loved and and radio Proverbs didn't love, and to get
them on the radio, I moved into A and R,
which was much more my liking. And it became you know,
I became a A and R man.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
You signed bon Jovi when nobody else would essentially touch them.
Can you walk us through that moment? What did you
see that others didn't see?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Well? I heard this song run Away on the radio.
There was a sampler which that w App I think
put out. And when I heard this song, it was,
you know, in the background when I was doing my work,
and I said, well, who is this in this song?
At the very same time approximately I heard the song,
(23:32):
an attorney from Philadelphia came and said, there's a kid
called John bon Jovi who just put this song out
called Runaway. But he's got another four tracks and he's
putting a band together. And so I brought him into
my office and heard these songs that that daddy's a
great wherein who are they they said, well, they're he's
(23:55):
working at the power station with his second cousin, Tony,
but he wants to put a band together and this
song is one of the songs that will be on
the first record hopefully. I said, well, let me meet
this guy to John bon Jovi. So I said, you know,
to this guy, off the man, bring him in. And
(24:18):
John came into my office and as he walked into
the office, all the girls' heads turned and they were
they were they were slavering. Okay, this is a pretty
young guy. But he came into my office. I said, John,
you know, I've heard these demos and I've heard the
this track run Away, which is it's just great. I
mean it's it's it's making a lot of noise. What
(24:40):
is it you want to do? And he looked at
me and we chatted a little bit before, but that said,
you know, that was you know, I said, what is it?
And who who is it you want to be? And
who is it that you want to what is it
you want to want out of your musical life. And
he said to me, full on with with absolute complete seriousness,
(25:01):
he said, I want to be as big or bigger
than Elvis. And this is a kid that just had
a song, one song on the radio, not even with
a band, with a pickup band at the power station.
And I believed him one, he said. I believed him
because I saw in him a drive that is again,
(25:22):
if you could bottle someone something and sell it, it's
worth a million million. And he had that. He had
that drive and I saw it in his face. I
saw it in his eyes, and I saw it in
his heart. And he said, Okay, this kid has got it,
and yeah, he's putting his band together. And I said,
do a couple of shows for me, so I want
to make sure that what you have will translate. And
(25:44):
we saw a couple of shows. Richie had just begun
the guitarist. The first show was was okay, it wasn't
great at the Copacabana in New York. And then they
did a rehearsal show for the Department at Sir and
it was good. It wasn't great, but it was good.
But I saw in Richie and John something that was
(26:07):
very special. So I signed the tour record deal and
we went this is you Know with with Tony and
put the first album out. Bon Job and run Away
was put out as a national hit single and it
did very well. I mean it wasn't a top ten hit,
but it did hit the top twenty I think, and
(26:28):
got them on the map. I introduced them to a
guy called Dot McGee who became business manager. They went
out there and John and the band worked their asses off,
and then then we put another album out. I'll just
give you my quick history up until the Big Break,
if you like. The next album was done in Philadelphia,
(26:48):
and it wasn't It wasn't a very pleasant experience, to
be perfectly honest. It was the wrong producer. He came
this a Lance Quinn who worked with him in the
power station in Philadelphia. That was not a pleasant experience.
The album that came out was kind of like a
It was a step up from what the first album was.
(27:11):
It was kind of a step aside. But meanwhile they
were playing everywhere and then we decided, okay, what are
we going to do here? Because John and the band
they made a lot of strikes in their live show.
Now they had to bring it home with their records
and I said, John, what about having a co writer?
Ordinarily about if I say that to a band. They
(27:33):
kicked me out and said get the hell out of here.
But John was absolutely pragmatic. I mean he said, listen,
if someone could help out get me to where I'm
going to go, I'm up for it. Who do you think?
And I got in touch with the guy with Gene
Sillons because I saw on his albums I saw, you know, Simmons,
(27:55):
Stanley and Child and I said, gee, who's this guy Child?
And he said do you remember this band Desmond Child
in Rouge? I said sure, yeah, we were on Capitol Records.
It was the same label as General Giant. He said, well,
Desmond Child is a great songwriter. He wrote just look
it up and with me, and you should meet with
him because he's a great writer. So I met Desmond
(28:17):
and I said, Desmond, I've got this band Bond Joby.
He said, sure, I know the band and they're looking
to hopefully write with a co writer. Would you like
to meet them? And he said sure. So I actually
put John and Rochie together with Desmond and I wrote
together and I heard the demos of this album, which
(28:38):
became slippy when we went. And then I said, Okay,
who are we going to record with? And I toured
the lover Boy album and Saga album out of Vancouver
with Bruce Fairburn and Bob Rock and I got in
touch with those guys and I said, we've got this band,
bon Zobi and they said, well we know the band,
said there's some demos, and when set in the demos,
(29:01):
they said, we'd love to do it. We went up
to Vancouver to cut to the chase Slabria. When went
was recorded, we came back to New York, completed the team,
and I knew then absolutely one herb setting you then
that bon Jovi was going to be as big as Elvis.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
What a great story, my god, amazing stories in this book.
Your career would then take you to be president of
Roadrunner Records and just you know, creating an amazing brand
and road Runner and Occo before that. Yes, yeah, I mean,
just are there bands or artists that you go Why
(29:45):
did I pass on them?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
You? Well, not hardly any Only one that I remember
that I wasn't sure of and I did pass and
that was Beck of all things, remember him coming in
and playing the Loser, and I didn't didn't like it
that much, you know, it sounded weird to be you know,
(30:07):
and I thought about and I played it. You know,
I think that was an that coat, uh and you
know I passed on it, and look, I was wrong.
I'd like that was a big mistake and beg was
was is still you know, a very creative forced and
that's a great song. I don't know, maybe I was
in a bad mood that they are or didn't have
(30:28):
any sleep or that night, but I missed that one.
But for the most part, there was It wasn't any
other band that I said I should have could have.
There were a couple of bands that I wish had
made it because they were that they were good enough
to make it. But for the most part, just about
every band that I signed and became successful, they weren't
(30:51):
being chased by other band other labels. They were bands
that were doing things which was theirs. And that's something
that was important to me. That this is whether it's
bon Jovi or Cinderella or Pantera or Dream Theater or
all these bands, no other label would chase them. They
were doing something which which was in this world I
(31:13):
used it many times. They were authentic, they were doing
something which was theirs and no one else's. And for
the most part, labels would chase bands that were already big.
You know, let's let's go chase you know, the West
Coast to hair hair band thinking, the Hollywood, you know,
the sunset strip bands. I never got involved in that world,
and I never got involved in chasing the next thing
(31:35):
because it was big. I got involved with bands that
were doing their own thing. And I think for the
most part, the bands that I signed, I feel fortunate
that they're still around and I still have careers. And
that's the key to a band that's authentic and dub
it and do their own thing, because they ultimately will
have a long career. And I'm glad that when I
(31:56):
listened to you know, when I just on the phone
to to the guys a Dream Theater, you know they're
up for you know, Grammy this year. You know that
they were you know, they're still around. Bon Jovi is
still around, you know, the Slipknot is still around, nickel
Back is still around. All these bands that I sign,
(32:19):
they're still around after thirty odd years, so they have
careers and the reason why is because they were doing
their own thing, not copying anybody else's.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
In closing, boy, I could talk to you forever. Really,
any advice to the young Derek Shulman that you wish
you could have maybe given you that would have even
made you more of a force. I don't know how
you could have been more of a force. But is
there any advice you would have given yourself back then?
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Well, I shouldn't my own advice. What I said to
said to the school teacher, I'm going to be a
rock star, and I stuck to it. And I think
what I would say today if you're a musician, certainly
because the the the gates, the gatekeepers and and the
gates are so hard to get through in this day
and age where it was a little different when I
(33:15):
was an executive. And certainly you know a band and
band member because you played and you you became popular
because you've got a lot of fans. What I would
say to a musician is, don't look at analytics. Don't
don't don't look at your uh, your likes or your
your your views on YouTube or whatever. Be fucking great
(33:39):
at what you do and do something that's yours and
do something that is not anyone else's and get an
audience and play and play and play until until you
have something that you build a fan base that is
yours and no one else's, and that way you'll make
it somehow or other, even though there's there's so many
(34:00):
other things in your way. But you know, it's hard
to do that in this day and age. When I
was doing it, there were a lot more places to play,
clubs to hone your skills. But as far as the
recording business is concerned, I feel badly and I feel
a little sad that the younger generation looks for fame
(34:22):
and money first as opposed to you know, and likes
and views, rather than be really good at what they do.
Just just be really really good, not really good. Be
great at what you do and don't look for likes
or views or you know, five seconds of fun riffs
(34:44):
or or silly moves on TikTok. That's all well and good,
but that won't get you a career. The bands I
talked to and the band I was in, Gentle Giant,
fifty years later, is still it's I want to say,
it's popular, but just well in some respects more popular
in Today's More World, and that it was when we
(35:06):
were on the road. The hip hop community is has
taken to our band, and last week we were Songwriters
of the Year at BMI because Travis Scott I sampled
Proclamation and it was the most played song on Spotify
last year. So that says a lot about what I'm
saying here. Be authentical and be yourself and be great.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Amen. Derek Shulman, would you come back sometime on Taking
a Walk.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
I'd love to of course.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Oh my God, giant steps the book. We always talk
about the President, we talk about music history. You are
music history. You've created it. And I'm so honored that
you came on to talk to me Derek. And it's
nice to see you again.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
It's a pleasure to see you again. Mad, great to
see you.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a Walk.
Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow
us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk
is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever
you get your podcasts.
Host
Lynn Hoffman
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