158 - Burn Day

Karen and Georgia cover the 3 Billboards murder of Kathy Page and the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
It's bananas.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
This is all I could manage, and it was because
it's going to make my life easier on the road. Yeah,
but now I fucking hate the way my hair looks,
and I wish I hadn't done it.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Of course, but that you know why, because it's permanent
and you're trapped in it. But it looks super cute,
thank you. It's an interesting also counter thing to your
like when you have that cute dress on today, but
you have that hair. It's cool, it's doing the job
you wanted it to do. Okay, but I'm sure it's
like getting a perm or like, yeah, yeah, it doesn't

(00:45):
like Vince keeps obviously not divorcing you. Vince keeps obviously
not saying something but here I mean yes. But that's
also the thing of guys are scared because he if
he knows you don't like it a little bit, he's
afraid to walk that line and go off into the

(01:06):
forest of I said the one thing and now she's
going crazy or like it too much, and they're like, well,
what do you mean you like it like this?

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yes, there's a lot of ways too. He just keeps saying,
it's a different look. God, bless it's a different look.
Oh no, God.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Bless him? Is that recorded? Hello and welcome to my
favorite murder guys. We're back in reality again. Back to life.
This is reality, right, back to reality. Back. I feel
like this office could be a like portal. We could

(01:43):
be dead. Let's hope we're not, because we have so
much to do tomorrow morning.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
I feel like a business woman this week, and which
kind of is fun. I feel like that's what When
I was a kid, I was like, Barbie's a business woman, yeah,
you know, and now I'm Barbie with my stupid Brazilian
blowouty describe your hair to people.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
To me, it's just so basic, bitch.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
It's like somewhere between basic fucking bitch and like a
heavy metal rocker. Dyellow, remember when like the heavy metal
rockers would have like like what's his name for? Yeah,
but I'm talking to a dude, Oh yeah, I guess,
or like a Girls.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
And Tons n' Roses yeah, oh axl Rose. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
It's just so stick straight that I feel weird and
I look more like Liza Minelli than I ever have.
I feel like it's just a lot of face for me.
I think I need a balloon of hair around my
face to frame it, and instead this is so flat
that it's just like, here's your face.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, uh, that's I empathize. I've cut my bangs in
a way where people had no choice to stare at
my big, fat, fucking face. It's a terrible feeling to
feel exposed, to feel like you've painted yourself and do
a style corner. It does not look like that. It's
super cute. It's also very different for you because you're

(03:01):
usually doing like a half finger wave bob number with
a this and a that, yeah, a little bit of backcomb,
And every time I look over at you, it looks
like you're about to go like unround with an electric guitar.
And I fucking love it because then you're also wearing
like a little cocktail dress, so it's a fun I
think if you would fold in a combat boot with
those oooh cocktail dress number, you could really get my

(03:26):
twenties look going.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
That would be very zast How about if I paint
a fucking lightning bowl across my face?

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Okay, were you with me? Just well separate from the air, Yeah,
how about you start doing that? Would I get a tattoo? Please?
Let's get into face tats quickly, please immediately, I'm gonna
go a little mustache right over my actual mustard. What
have you got?

Speaker 2 (03:50):
You know how finger mustaches are really popular for a
while where you're having a little secret fit. What if
you got a finger tattooed over where your mustache.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Some weird fat finger on your upper lip to be
like that? Yeah? Yeah, remember the mid two thousand, right,
that comes trendy. Oh, let's start that. Let's start it.
Let's start it, let's pop it off. What do you
do your hap any thing? Yeah? Okay, great, I'm pressing
information from weeks ago. Of course I would say this

(04:19):
is my headline. I said, the Netflix series dairy Girls
takes place in Belfast. Okay, The whole reason it's called
dairy Girls is because it takes place in London dairy which,
as many very patient Irish and Northern Irish murdering nots
have let me know, aren't really even that close to

(04:40):
each other. Great, how are you supposed to know that
without looking at a map? Look, I've looked at these maps.
I've even been to this part of Ireland. But I
think Northern Ireland, I say Belfast and it's over. I
didn't even really realize there were other cities to talk about,
even though I'd watched the series, saw this little sign
that said welcome to Londonderry or whatever the hell it is.

(05:02):
There's a bunch of identifiers, like you know why it's
called dairy Girls. There's a contingency.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
I think that it is after you, yeah, coming after you, okay,
and from Ireland, and we love it as well as
every every New Mexico site of your own head.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Even that's where they're getting me the worst. That's that's
a rough one there, very true. So apologize, I mean
apologies to hear you guys, go apologize, not me to
uh the great people over it dairy Girls, which is
if you haven't seen that series. I watched it because
someone recommended it to me on Twitter. Loved it so much.

(05:41):
It's so funny, it's I just adore it. And then
it ends beautifully and I hear there's going to be
a second season. Yeah, so now we'll all know exactly
where it's coming from and be so much more.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
We'll know where we are on the map. Yes, it'll
be great. I'll get a pin and we'll pin in
on the map.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
I'm going to have Stephen drop a pin into Londonderry.
You know we should do with this wall of the office.
This gray, it's kind of depressing. It looks like an asylum.
Well is have a map of all the places we've
made mistakes? Sure, or I'm going to make mistakes. Essay,
It'll be the solar system on one side, speaking of sadium. Netflix,

(06:19):
so we got a lot of like asks like did
you guys watch the Ted Bundy documentary? Right? Right?

Speaker 2 (06:25):
So I was like, I better watch the Ted Bundy documentary.
I watched two episodes and I was like, why am
I so angry and not enjoying this? And I usually
am interested in Ted Bundy shit. And I realized it's
because I have to hear his fucking voice. And that's
the point of the show is to hear him talk
to a reporter, right, And I fucking hate him so

(06:48):
much and I don't want he's already He's said what
he's going to said by say, by murdering a bunch
of women. That was his side of the story, that's right,
Why are we He's a fucking megalomaniac, He's a fucking
known liar, wire and and it's not diabolical. He's a
little pussy who got fucking intimidated by women and wanted
to be famous, and the only way he could do

(07:09):
it was by by killing women because he's so into it, Like,
why are we listening to him and his side of
the story.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
I'll tell you my theory is because same with me.
I don't want to watch it because I don't like
watching killers talk about their craft and all that bullshit.
That totally that's all elevates.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's the actor inside the actor studios for fucking mirrors,
exactly right.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
And but I think that was that thing at the
time they went, oh my god, we don't know what
this is. We have to get this out, we have
to get he is to write. Well, it's that thing
of people fall for this so much. If you're good looking,
that means you're good. Right there. It's this. It's the
most basic mistake human beings make. We all do it.

(07:48):
You get you give credit to good looking people. You
think they're good people. You think tall men are great leaders,
and you're not whatever they say. It means you're kind, yes,
it means that you have no agenda and you're just
being right there's all these ways that we want things
to be that simple. So I understand recording Ted Bundy
to go look at this monster in this shell of

(08:09):
the he almost looks like a British lit professor. He's
so like patches on the elbows and look, I just
want to talk about this stupid fucking smirk. I mean, yeah,
but well just for me, that's it's for other people
to look at. I don't want to hear him because
he's not a truthful person. You're not going to get

(08:30):
anything from it aside from being massively creeped out. And
what I like is Billy Jensen kind of in the
wake of that and the trailer coming out for the
zach Efron Ted Bundy movie, Billy.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Jensen is fucking putting his mouth where his money goes.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
He is he has created a thread of the Ted
Bundy victims talking about each one of them individually. I
retweeted it on my favorite murder Twitter feed and you
can find it.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
I'm sure most people follow Billy john He also I
just saw this. He also just posted that Bundy confessed
to murdering eight other women in all these different cities.
Maybe he said, maybe it's bullshit. But to the medical
examiners in those states, if you have female remains from
the air that you don't have funds to process, direct

(09:17):
message me and I will help pay for the extraction
and familial search to give them back their names. Yes, Billy,
we love you, Billy, tell us how to help you.
Look listen, you're gonna have a podcast on our network.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
And we love you.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
And was that an Easter egg teaser? Easter egg teaser?
It's not even a tea, it's like the whole thing.
But so, and I also wanted to say that I'm
really looking forward to a friend of the podcast, Selene
Beth Cauldron. She's doing a documentary called Theodore where she
just interviewed that they interview people who experienced him and survived,
the survivors and all this shit, which I'm really I

(09:54):
like that part.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
It's interesting to me, Yes, because that's what that's where
you're going to get a real story, right, is the
and Rule style the person who sat next to him.
We went to dinner the other night and my friend
Denise had just read a Stranger beside me, and she's
so mad at Anne Rule. She's so mad at Anne
Rule for falling for Ted Bundy's act. But I was like,
but that's how good you, that's how evil it is

(10:17):
and whatever.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
But that's why it's so amazing. I think it's because
he was able to full and fucking.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
Rule and rule a ex policewoman, a fucking investigator, like
the whole thing. Yeah, but yes, that the documentary you're
talking about. That was the girl that was in the
front row of our show that came up. We picked
her and she came on stage. Remember, yes, what show
is that? I think it was in Texas if I'm
not mistaken, or Portland or Salt Man, Salt Lake. But

(10:47):
the people who lived through it, the people who can
sit there and go, here's what it looked like when
this lunatic was coming through my window. That's those are
the only people I want to hear totally.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Or here's even the psychology and this not to fucking
totally despare just documentary because it's actually really good and interesting.
But whenever Ted starts talking, I get angry, Yeah, pissed off,
Like I wrote three pages of fucking scratch of me.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Listen.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
I had some fucking rose, I'll admit it, but uh yeah,
I wrote all this crazy insane rambling. Go follow Theodore
Documentary on Instagram or just look for the Theodore Documentary.
I know there's a it's Theodore the Documentary, and I
know there's a trailer for it, and they're still making it.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
I'm really excited. I can't wait. Yeah, yeah, I can't
wait for that to come out. I'm gonna do a
weird thing real quick.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
I keep hearing my fucking overalls jangling, so I'm gonna
undo them.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
So went at Home is like, what the fuck is that?
Not is? That's why are they wearing a small bell? Oh?
I do have another thing. Okay, So we had the
great privilege of doing a live show specifically for TNT's
new limited series I Am the Night, directed by Patty Jenkins,
which right now we're not being paid to say, that's right,

(12:01):
this is this is just talking about it because we
lived it. Directed by Patty Jenkins of Wonder Woman starring
Chris Pine and also EAT executive produced by Chris Pine.
Hooray for Chris Pine. But when during that live show
where we were at some point in like five years

(12:21):
we should release the unedited version of.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
That, absolutely not, no fucking way, We're burning it to
the gris.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Steven's going to release it. We I think time capsule wise,
it could be a good one. I lost my mind
personally at the top of that show. I was so
stressed out. But but I mean, it turned out so
fun and amazing, but it was a little bit crazy.
So at one point I said, I was talking about
what was happening around the case and I referred to

(12:49):
something and I called it espionage. I almost got away
with it, and then George's like, did you mean to
say that's like and it was, no, no, no, it was
the wrong word. I want you to do that. Well
that's all I ever did. So I was I think
probably was so excited that you did it, yes, or
have at, But I couldn't until somebody on Twitter named

(13:11):
at silly Celia c I L L y C I
L I A. She tweeted me the day after it
came out, or the day of it coming out, and said,
it's the word you were looking for, subterfuge, And I
was like, yes, yes, it was.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
That's amazing. I would have never fucking guessed that, right,
And what a great word. Let's all use that in
our daily lives. Can you tell me the meaning of it.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Subterfuge just means like trickery and secrecy and kind of
like you don't know what's going on, almost submarine subterfu subterfuged.
I think so. Someone else also wrote in and said,
were you looking for the word intrigue, which probably also
would have fit angel. Why don't we use those words more?
We will now I'm intrigued by the subtrufuge of the

(13:53):
fact that we don't use the fucking words. Yes, you
did amazing and quickly and quickly. Well, so thank you,
thank you, thank you all for uh, thank you for that,
and also for all the people who came. It was
raining so hard in La that night.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
It was kind of like cool romantic y because we
were like going to watch a fucking thing about the
Black Dahlia, which is the shows that Yes, it sounds
like we are now integrating ads into the podcast, I
swear to God or not.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
This is the difficulty of when you start doing stuff
like this, because it's what we really did, but it's
also a commercial.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
So you know, look, this is listen, this is where
we are this and this was Brachibi. Jefferson Mays was
the actor we interviewed at the end of that live show.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Who was the greatest A joy? I mean, just the
most interesting person to talk to, A delight support him
and all he does. He's also in the Battle of
the Ballad of Buster Scrubs. Oh right on Netflix. I
haven't seen it anyway, Mom? What else? How was your day?

Speaker 2 (15:00):
I spent most of it with you in meetings, I know,
in an uncomfortable dress. We got to a dentist last night,
even well at night time. Yeah that no, Georgie, you can't.
Was I tricked you? Is it a home dentist office basement?

Speaker 1 (15:15):
No, it's an attic. It's gentle office right up. It's
in the Soden House where doctor Hodel used to live.
Right well, that's good. You got something taken care of. Yeah,
let's have a new corner and we call it Aaron's.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
Taking care of business with Tusis I bought paper toes.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yes, I'm proud of you. That actually is hard because
you can't you don't want to carry it. No, totally.
Can I tell you what? Mayn't even think about telling
you this? Uh So I met, I quit the podcast.
I put all our money in my name and I'm
going to Aruba, Jamaica.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Uh So the other day Sunday, I met up with
my real quick for lunch and he got to talking
about the book because I gave him a copy of
our book that pre because he's special pre order. I
can't you can pre order it, you don't have it.
Gave him a copy. He says, I have some.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Notes, oh, accuracy notes or just overall both okay. And
it was really and I'm going to save the piece
of paper he wrote on forever because it's it's so Marty.
It's notes on on like page this, you wrote that.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
And it was also clarifying some shit about my life
that I didn't like that I wrote about that. I
didn't know that in the book. He was like, because
I write about my parents a lot.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
It was crazy. Yeah. Was it a helpful thing? Was
it like good to hear it? Yeah? Oh my god. Yeah,
I had fucking notion for years that was false. Wow. Yeah,
I think that happens a lot.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, it's so hard, Stark that my dad had notes
for my fucking book.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
I mean, I I swear to you, it's too late.
If I said my dad, well yeah exactly. But if
I send my dad my book, he's going to go,
can I get it on the kindle? Like my is
as supportive as my dad is. I can feel it.
That's that's funny how we are kill garrets. It's like

(17:15):
you have to feel what we're doing. You can't really
listen to. It's like yes, and having watched it's a
well kind of it's like yes. It's like you have
to be connected on a different level because there's there's
a couple of things going on. Because of the shame issues,
we can't really do things directly. It's always a weird sidebar.
So it's like if I'm really proud of you, I
need to insult your sweater. It's that kind of shit

(17:37):
I grew up with where I'm like, oh, thank you.
So I think I just realized as we were talking
about this, like I think if I handed my dad
a book that had my name on the front of it,
he would lose it. But that would be he would
have to have that reaction of like, oh, I can't
use it in the other room and yeah, and he
would later on when I wasn't there, he would tell

(18:00):
other people how proud he was of me, and then
my sister would have to loop back third hand because
my dad's really proud of you, God forbid me. She's
mad about it. So there's a little bit of a
there's a less tone to it, and dad's real proud
of me. Dad's talking about your thing again. I'm a
school teacher, but dad's real proud of this book. You
barfed out. I'm the person that's doing that's keeping America's

(18:22):
children together for eleven dollars a day. Thanks so muchs Karen,
Thanks thanks for you and your friend. My dad did
text me listen. I'm this is just something I'm bragging
now because my dad is a sensitive person, you know that.
But he texts, uh, I'm crying. He cried.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
He cried during the book multiple times, and he said
I think Ray Bradberry would be proud of you.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
And then I barfed, oh right on the book on
my phone. But he texted it and there was probably
an emoji. That's fine. I was saying to my therapist
the other day this, you know, as much as like
things feel crazy whatever, we talk about this maybe too much,
but but that also it feels very vulnerable. And so

(19:05):
there's this kind of like tension that I feel like
is getting much better now that we have, like, you know,
people in place.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Where, Now that we've cloned Stephen exactly, Now that we've
hired a step and put a Stephen in here and
a Stephen over there, even's no longer the full staff.
Vince does this, and yeah, okay, we.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Have more support. But that feeling of vulnerability is something
I've worked my entire life to not experience. I am
a stand up comic. I do it by myself. I
don't rely on other people. That in the beginning, when.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
All I was like, you love me and trust me
and let's cry together. I'm your best friend. Now, I mean,
what an experience. But it's just like then you just
have to go too bad, like too bad. That's the
that's the exchange. We get this fun, cool experience, and
we have to be the most vulnerable, stripped down. Sucking

(20:00):
works better when you're vulnerable.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
It's better. It sucks, It sucks, it's hard. It's yeah,
it's like kind of flexing your bicep all day long
is what it feels like to me, where I'm like,
it makes me want to freak out and I just can't.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Once in a while, you can, all right, well, yeah,
go go We have a merch store at my favorite
murder dot com. You can buy shirts and lots of
cool shit. There's a fan cult at there as well
with extra special things.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
You can join, and we're building out the extra special
things that the fan cult gets all the time. So
you know, don't join now, Just know that the future
holds many wonderful surprizes.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
For example, since we have We're we've been paid to
mention it twice the TNT I AM the Night Live show,
it was only available to the fan cult, right, So
like that where it's like, well, we have a show,
we have to fill it. It's like tickets aren't tickets
are free, Let's tell the fan cult about it.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
And so it's stuff like that. Yeah, insider stuff works
and perks. Look, keep giving you ship and you keep
appreciating it. Good Daln very vulnerable. Making is exchange of love.
That's right. We no, Stephen's not ready, I stumbled, Steven.

(21:23):
Do we count the Eye of the Night Order or
the San Diego Show? Because if we go by Eye
in the Night, then Georgia, you would be first. You
want to be first, George, all right?

Speaker 2 (21:31):
Right by that I was gonna say no, And then
you said that, and I'm like, yes.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
I'm gonna go first because I want to.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
There's so much fucking information in here and I need
to get out of my brain or I won't listen
to you. Okay, great, your start. I understand that feeling. Also,
I just cracked a can of wine. Let's do this
before I get ship faced. Boom, get ready, I have
a koozy over this can of wine.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
We watch wrestling coozy. Yeah, so, for all you know,
this could be a can of vodka because you can't
see the label. That's right, and hey, schmer enough, why
aren't there pansa vodka out there for me?

Speaker 2 (22:04):
I mean I can't ima. Let's make that great merchandising. Okay,
so fuck. I first heard about this case recently on
an episode of one of my favorite shows, Cold Justice. Yes,
so fucking good. What's cold about it? The cases and
the weather because they're usually you know, wearing coats.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
It's all back East. It's like a double on time drill.
So this is cool.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
It's cold cases, essentially cold cases, and the see the layard?

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Does? Do you want the tissue? I don't have one?
I have a perfect So Cold Justice is it's this
fucking badass prosecutor named Kelly Siegler.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
She goes to town small towns or big towns or whatever.
They have cold cases, and they have a case sending
and help with. She starts it from the very beginning
and they try to figure out who fucking.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
Cold case that ship. Yeah, so she does it for
this one.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
I've never fucking heard of it, even though there's something
about it that you will know. So I'm going to
tell you this and then I'm gonna get into it.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
This. So this is the.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Murder of Kaffee page. But let me start with this
and you'll fucking understand. Okay, So about nearly thirty years ago,
this dude is a writer from the UK. He is
on a Greyhound road trip across the US to see
the sites, smell things, you know, sure tay stuff. While

(23:28):
traveling through this town called Vider, Texas, wh's about one
hundred miles from Houston, he spots three billboards off the
I ten uh huh. The three of them read. One
reads Vider police botched up the case, second one reads
waiting for a Confession. The third says this could happen
to you. And so that writer and then director of

(23:53):
course is Martin McDonough, yes, who made last year Three
Billboards outside of Eving, Missouri. Yes said he always he
couldn't remember where where it was that he saw it.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
He didn't.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
He assumed it was a woman because it broke his
heart and seemed like a mom kind of thing to do.
He was incorrect, but it always stuck with him, and
then he kind of made the characters from there.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Okay, so basically that was his imagined version. Yeah, and
you're about to give us the real that's.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Fucking oh shit, girl, this is three Billboards outside of
vider Texas.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Okay, So here's the real story.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Very early in the morning, about four thirty in the
morning on May fourteenth, nineteen ninety one, thirty four year
old Kathy Page was found in her car in the
driver's seat and the car is stuck in a ditch.
It appears to be a car accident. It's about one
hundred mile oh sorry, one hundred yards from her house
that she lives at with her now a strange husband

(24:48):
and two young daughters. I think they're like nine and
twelve or so in vider Texas. Her body is found
at approximately five am by It says a paperboard. But
I think it's just like a newspaper delivery service, so right,
it's not as sad as it sounds.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
It is okay.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
When investigators start to look more closely, though, they get
there immediately and they're like, this doesn't fucking look right.
This is not a car accident. They are like, this
is staged. So basically, she is in the driver's seat
of her car, sitting stick straight up, but it's face
down in a fucking nose down in a ditch, so
her feet are planted on the ground, her head is

(25:28):
tilted back. The soda that's in the car has not spilled,
her purse hasn't even toppled over, so it's clearly fucking stage.
The car is barely damaged, and they also find a
blade of grass on the bottom of her jeans, showing
that at some point she had been in that grass
that was in the ditch.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
Oh right, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
And then the autopsy determines that she had been strangled,
and she also had a broken nose and a black eye,
so something someone staged this car accident. She also didn't
have a seatbelt on and she was sitting up like that,
so detective that must have.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Been so eerie, I know, to find that.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, so detective Sergeant Moseley, he becomes suspicious immediately. This
is not fucking right. He walks the hundred yards up
to her front door and he says that when her
estranged husband, Steve, opens the door, he looks over at
the car port and then looks down the road where
this is all happening, and says, but his wife's not home,

(26:32):
and they told him that she was dead, that she
had been strangled, And he fucking goes into a fit,
starts getting upset. He throws himself on the couch, crying
and all this shit. But then the detective is like,
when I saw his face, he wasn't crying. Do you
think it's possible to be crying without tears? Is that

(26:52):
just imp It's like one of those things where it's like,
you know, now we know that your reaction just might
be shock or whatever.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
What do we call it? How we don't judge people now?
Oh yeah, sid there's no grief expectation of like what
you're there's no right way to be told how wife
spend strangle to death exactly.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, So I wonder this is probably fucking medical we
could ask a doctor tears, like do they always come
when you're crying?

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Now, I am a doctor, and I should have told
you this about two years ago. Shit, everything I say
medically is pretty dead on. But to know I would
say this as a person who because of the way
my eyes are light blue, any emotion that I feel
passes through my face like I can't. I can't if

(27:39):
I get misty about if I watch a video, my
eyes will turn red. And even though I'm like fine,
if I have the feeling, yeah, it gets shown. I'm
the opposite where you're having it, and nothing is enough,
Like I.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Would cry right now if I weren't on a ton
of pharmaceuticals.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Well, so, I think there are people who are on
natural pharmaceuticals i e. Being sociopaths, where they know what
it looks like when someone's upset and they know to
make those noises and sounds. But I think if usually
when they murdered their wife. Yes, but I think if
you are in shock, you don't try to fake cry.

(28:21):
You sit there and don't have a reaction. You don't
fake anything, You don't fake anything. I think those people
that cry but there's no tears which you see a
lot these days, is just mimicry and people knowing this
is what I'm supposed to do right now. Are there
people that go, I know what I'm supposed to do,
and if I don't do that, I know these cops
are going to think because I'm in shock and I
have no feelings yet, I mean that you should. I

(28:43):
would hope to think that if somebody that was as
close to you as your wife would be that if
you were told that they were murdered, you would either
be in shock and none of that planning would be
going through your head going what does this look like
to this person? And all that shit you would just
be having.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
I think that, like blacking out seems like a norm.
Like we were just reading because someone left in my
seatback pocket that thank you very much, whatever the fuck
that was. Yes, maybe it was Dale Hugley Huglee who
we saw on the plane to Albaquarque recently.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
That's right, that's very exciting. This the coolest motherfucker I've
ever seen in my life. He was the coolest motherfucker
and so many people walked by his seat and said
something to him. It was the cutest, coolest thing where
you're like, oh, yeah, he's a stand up comic that's
been busting his ass for years and years. He's gotten shows,
he's got he's been in movies, he's been in cool
TV shows like it was. It was really he.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Just looks and then I just I don't want to
out him to TSA, but he I noticed him first
because he had this really cool hat on, like hipster
cool hat, and in it was tucked a single fucking
strike Anywhere match, and I was like, A, that's the cool,
Like that's just so cool.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
It's so good.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
B anytime someone needs a fucking light, I bet you
pull that motherfucker on lne it three. You got through
TSA with a fucking striking ARAM match in your hat.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
So, but that's when the government was shut down. So Iri,
you know, we're lucky, we're lucky. It was just to
strike anywhere. That's right, that's right.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
And I see like you, I mean, listen, yeah, look,
do whatever you want.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
Where were we?

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Oh yeah, I was gonna say, so the People magazine
work where the fucking daughter of BTK is like, here's
how it happened for me.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
A book.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Her thing was like she just started when she was
told that her dad was a serial killer and BTK,
she just start start, just blacked out.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yes and fainted. I bet, yeah, that makes sense to me, Yeah,
because how do you take that in in a your reality?
Would would just crack everything and then you wouldn't even
know where to, Like, I feel like you know how
to sit down. That's normal for someone who loses a
spouse unexpectedly and that they're actually connected to. But if
you're not connected and you need to put on a show, yes,
I right, that happens a lot. Okay, So we got

(30:49):
through that. I don't know. So the investigator got upset,
no tears, but he was quote weeping, and we know
a lot of the stuff because there is a trial,
although it's not what you think it is.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Okay, So Kathy, let's go back. Hey, guess what. Kathy
and Steve they had been married for thirteen years. They
had the two daughters, as I said, and Steve then
tells authorities that recently Kathy had told him that she
no longer wanted to be married to him and they
were planning on separating. He said she wanted to work
things out, but of course her sister her friends are
like she's wasn't happy for a long time. Steve slept

(31:22):
on the couch, or she slept in her daughter's room.
She had recently got like a real job out of
the home for the first time. Anne was going back
to school. And so she was twenty one, she got married,
and she's now thirty four, and she's like finding herself
and has friends at work.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
And she's fucking gorgeous too, by the way. That doesn't hurt.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
And Steve was according to Kathy's sister, that they wanted
to stay together was bullshit. Their marriage was over, Kathy
was starting to move on. So two nights before Kathy
was found, Steve had moved into a condo on his
own or apartment on his own. Okay, so, but the
night of her death, Kathy couldn't find a babysitter. She's

(32:01):
calling around her sisters couldn't do it. So she called
Steve and was like, can you come over and watch
the girls? And she told Steve that she was meeting
her friend Charlotte in Beaumont, which was like ten minutes away,
for drinks, and she left around eleven fifteen that night.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
But the autopsy shows that Kathy had had sex that night, and.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Then the authorities learned Chorley brookeore her death she had sex,
and then authorities learned that she had not gone to
meet Charlotte. In fact, she Charlotte admitted that she had
agreed to cover for Kathy by saying that Charlotte, don't
pick up the phone. I'm telling Steve, I'm going out
with you, so if you answer the phone, he'll know
I'm not out with you. And the reason is because

(32:42):
Kathy was actually going to meet a new dude that
she was dating, who was staying at a hotel in Beaumont.
So around two am, Charlotte, her friend is fucking fast asleep.
Her phone rings. She picks it up and she's like, Jess,
let's remember too. It's like from a time of not
having cell phones. Yes, your phone is blaring at them
all night. This poor woman, like in Cold Justice, she

(33:05):
talks and she fucking obviously blames herself for this whole thing.
Oh no, it's so sad, answers it immediately hears a
hang up and is like, oh fuck, no, I just
outed my friend. It's later revealed that on the piece
of paper or on the phone book where Charlotte's phone
number is right underneath. That was another phone number, and
that was the hotel's phone number. So he calls, probably

(33:28):
calls Charlotte, she picks up, she's not fucking out with Charlotte,
calls the next number. It's a hotel. Knows what's going on. Okay, Yeah,
so okay, So the autopsy report again shows that Kathy
had had sex that night, and they and this is obvious,
but it kind of blew my mind that they can
tell that whoever she had sex with had hat of

(33:48):
a sectomy.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Oh, which is obvious because there's no sperm, right, but
like I'm also like, whoa, Yes, that's it. Yeah, that's fascinating,
isn't it.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Her boyfriend that she was seeing hadn't had one, and
he passed a polygraph with flying colors. It's definitely not him,
Like we know it's not him, So that means she
had sex with another guy.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Guess what.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
Steven had it sect to me a few months earlier.
So here's the thing about this case and about uh
Vider is that everyone on either side who thinks Steve
did it or thinks he didn't, agrees that the cops,
the investigators fucked this up royally and.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
I'll give you proof of that.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Because the crime scene with the car and Kathy in it,
and they take all these crime scene photos later find
out there's no film in the camera.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
What there's no film in the fucking camera. There's not
a single crime scene photo of this case.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Okay, but no, no, butts, you can't fix this how.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
Like even even if you're even if you're your first week,
it's like a joke. I make a lot when are
these Is there a film in there and also a camera,
like the way those I would assume the camera I'm
thinking of the kind like that they used to use
whatever they would have, like film film in it makes
a noise, It makes a noise. It's also like it's
sometimes you can see the yellow through the little window

(35:13):
and they're definitely lighter when there's no film in this. Yes,
like a slightly interested photographer would be like, this is it? Right?

Speaker 2 (35:20):
And this goes to the other big thing, which is
there's just conspiracy theory.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
I'm into the conspiracy theory.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
You don't want it to be real that someone would
just forget the fucking film. But there's other things too,
like so they go up to his door, right, like right,
after they find her, it's like between four thirty and
five in the morning. They don't bring him or the
two sleeping daughters in for questioning. They don't secure the scene.
They don't ask if they I think they ask if
they can come in, and he says no because he doesn't.

(35:47):
He says that other friends of mine have had evidence
planted by these cops around here, So they don't. They
don't get a search warrant. They don't try to get
a search warrant. They don't photograph his face or hands
to see if he has scratches. I mean, they don't
do anything. Yeah, it's it's it's even if there is
conspiracy theories that are true. They also were fucking incompetent.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Well, I also think it's that thing or they botched this.
They botched this because it's a small town in Texas.
They've had no experience, right with like a murder and
a murder cover up and all those things where it's like,
oh no, go down to Steve. Yeah, yeah, that's that problem,
that small town problem. Was like, oh I know that guy,
it's fine.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Well, they both admitted later in this child that they
were acquaintances of his. Yeah, so they knew him, which
is part of the conspiracy theory. But you know, there's
just the theory.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
Yeah, when there's no conspiracy, Yeah, you just have theory lefts. Yeah,
that's right.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
So then they bring they bring Steven like two days
later and question him and he's like, oh, yeah, actually
Kathy and I had he volunteers it.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
They don't even ask him.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Kathy and I have had sex before she went out
that night, which gives him a reason why his semen
would be there. He says that he she was getting
ready to go out again. They had split. They he
had moved out two nights before. So how much do
you want to fuck your ex who, like you just
kicked out of the house, right, I mean I've broken

(37:12):
up with people and I had who I kicked out
and I hadn't had won sex with him for like a.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
Year, right right?

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yes, So he sees her gonna twel coming out of
the shower, he says, he tries to have sex with her.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
She agrees.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
They fuck in the living room on the rug. That's
his story. Okay, where are the children?

Speaker 1 (37:28):
What? I guess they're in better ready because it was
late Okay, whatever, I mean, Look, we all also know,
like you can think of a thousand times where you're
just like, oh, I never fucked that person again, and
then suddenly are so. I mean, you've rationalize so many things.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
She's going to see her new hot boyfriend too in
her hotel room, right, No, I know, And maybe she's
also like, if you know, he'll be suspicious unless I do.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
This is true. I mean there's yes, there's a million
ways to to there's a million possibilities, right.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
But Okay, So when Kathy is in the car, she
doesn't have on makeup or jewelry. It had all been removed.
But the dude she was meeting said she was in
full makeup and had like an outfit and jewelry on
when he saw her. So that suggested that she had
been home after visiting the dude. She left the hotel
room around two thirty in the morning. It suggests that

(38:18):
she went home, took off, or did her nighttime routine.
I was listening to Southern Fried Crime and she talks.
She says this really interesting thing that I totally caught onto,
which is like, you know, in every lie, there's some truth. Well,
Kathy's Kathy's habit was to come home take off her
makeup her jewelry, get in the shop, put up her hair,
and get in the shower. So Steve saying he saw

(38:39):
her in a towel after a shower could be true.
It's just later he approaches her for sex. He fucking
knows she was just at a hotel because he called
the number and is blaming her for cheating on him. Essentially, yes,
it's just probably pissed. And so the other thing is
that the blood is found are found on her underwear

(39:01):
and skin, but not on her outer clothing, suggesting she
wasn't wearing clothes when this when the blood happened. So
they said Kathy Page was not killed in her vehicle.
She was killed in another location, cleaned up, redressed, and
placed back in her vehicle after the vehicle had been
rolled down the ditch. So they think he rolled the
vehicle down the ditch, carried her body back in, probably

(39:22):
put her down in the grass, which is how the
grass got on her jeans, right, et cetera. And fucking
in cold justice, they redo this because they have no
photos to look at, so they reenact the whole.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
Thing of how it would go. Is that crazy? So
I wonder if a small town would even have a
staff police photographer. R No, is it like there's the camera,
get the camera. Yes, someone go get the camera. So
that could be a part. But still it just doesn't Yeah,
it doesn't. It doesn't seem right if you know enough
to take pictures of a crime scene, if you know

(39:56):
that much. However, I could see.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Some nineteen year old new recruit they like to the
photos and he doesn't objeck shit and.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Just does that, and also the flash is going off.
You're like, oh, it's all happening, totally, totally. So.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
So two days after her body is found, it's publicly
announced that Steve was the prime suspect. Steve fucking obviously
this guy man, he's a piece of work. And there's
an interview with him on Unsolved Mysteries and you're just like, oh,
you're referring to yourself in the third person, and all
you do is say how this how her death has
badly affected you and your career, and you're like, no,

(40:31):
he's a creep.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah, that's that's always like the seven red flags? Is
that kind of like this murder has impacted my nuts? Right?

Speaker 2 (40:40):
These billboards that her dad put up have made you know,
it's like, yeah, which is probably true, but yeah, he's
a greep. So he claims he's innocent. He says that proof,
part of the proof that he can show that he's
innocent is that after Kathy was murdered, he started receiving
phone calls and was threatened that the same thing would
happen to him if he the same thing would happen

(41:01):
to him threatening him, He claims that it was he.
He says that everyone knows around town that it was
the murderer was actually a member of a prominent Italian
family in Beaumont, and they're part of the Beaumont Mafia.
Oh did you know that Beaumont has a mafia?

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Is that Sopranos season six? I think I feel like
I'm just getting to that season right now. I think
it's a spin off of Sopranos. I mean it's possible. No,
it's not. It's like not, it's not a thing. It's
like that's the thing in Texas where if one Italian
shows up and one's like, gather around everybody, Who've got
to get rid of this? That's right?

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Well yeah yeah, And in Southern Fried Crime, she's like
I tried to google it, and even this story doesn't
come up when you google a Beaumont Mafia because it's
so fucking random.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, and that also sounds like something that Beaumont High
School made up to call their football team or something,
you know what I mean. Where it's like we're the
Baumont Mafia and we're gonna kick your assn Dale, the
goths in the trench coat. Steve's like their responsible for
her death, and there the police are framing me. Okay,
so here's another couple of reasons why we think he

(42:07):
did it. So it's obviously Kathy's.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
Family, her big family, against Steve's big family, and they
contradict everything the other one said. Yeah, so in the
very beginning they didn't think Steve had done it, yet
they weren't suspicious of him. So the minute that the
family finds out about her the parents find out about
her death, he says that it's uh, she broke her

(42:30):
neck and it maybe was a suicide. He already knew
that she had been murdered, and he doesn't tell them.
He also suggests that she was on cocaine.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
She's not.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Oh no, he's fucking weird and saying some weird shit
and then also they noticed that there's a square of
carpet cut out in the living room, which he offers
to police is where that's the same place where they
had had sex that night.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Remember they bone in the fucking ear and why who
cut it out?

Speaker 2 (42:56):
Who cut it out and why? And also says that
not only did we fuck there, but there was blood
Kathy's blood on it because she liked to shave her
legs in the living room.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
So well, okay, yes, somebody at this point, if I
was at the police station, I would open the door
and I'd be like, dude, fucking knock it off. Knock
it off this son, jail, go just go and get
in jail. You can't find a woman in America who
shaves her legs in the motherfucking living room, or even

(43:26):
if she does, have you ever bled enough on the car,
like you don't you don't? Oh was she dry shaving?

Speaker 2 (43:32):
What you know, when you cut your leg and you
just spurt blood all over the place and you just
kind of stand there. But the reason he says he
got rid of the rug is because that he was
carrying some fucking grease from from fucking cooking fish.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Fucking whoa whoa whooa trips.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Ran over to the spot where he has sex with
his wife, spilled it there. Oh, I mean, there's just
you pick one reason, and he gave them all.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
It was the Bermuda try angle of.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Their carpet, that's right, and so he got rid of it.
He also never would let the cops in. He burns
that fucking piece of carpet. He burns everything that he alleged.
He allegedly said he tried to clean it, and her
family said that they saw his family trying to clean
that spot too. Good God, and they're all, nope, no,
that didn't happen.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Also, anytime you're entering into a burn area, you're in
dangerous waters because the usually the innocent don't need to
go burn stuff in the backyard.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
Absolutely, although you guys, you and some of the people
have taught me I'm from Orange County, which is suburbia,
that burning trash in a backyard is a normal thing.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
Very much so. But you can only do it on
a burn day. So please call your comptroller and find
out when when the burning allowed.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
My favor or if there's anything we're against, it's unlawful
burning trash. Civics our key everyone, we're running for mayor
of your city.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
When we learned to pronounce it, that's right.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
So the the other thing that was fucking creepy and
weird is that all of Kathy's watches have disappeared, all
of them, so and that didn't happen until after it
was discovered that she hadn't been wearing any jewelry that
that night when she was found, she had come home
and taken off all her jewelry. Steve is probably like,
I don't know which fucking watch she was wearing, let's

(45:20):
put them all out of here, and Kathy's sister says
that she's like, right after the murder, saw Steve give
his creepy, weird lawyer friend, which they talked to and
call Justice, a Manila envelope. He passes it off to him.
It was bulky and it made a metallic sound, and
Steve said that there was candy in it. So whatever
jewelry she's wearing that night, he probably put in new

(45:43):
manilla envelope and gave it to his fucking creepy ass
lawyer friend who's going to cass style lawyer exactly. He's
Joe Deros's character. The fucking he gives people does surgery.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
That's right. Also, yeah, this guy is is seems like
he's not only only lies all the time, but is
terrible at it.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Yeah, can I tell you the worst thing you did?
I was gonna save it, but like when I saw
him cold there's a video of in cold justice. I'm
sure there's a video that Stephen can stay up till
three in the morning.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
Fine, And I'm kidding shooting because you know that's like
it's like nine o'clock right now. Flip it and Stephen's reality,
we're like the worst college class he's ever had to
like cram for every Wednesday night, Stephen.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
We should let you know we're working on a new
website where this stuff exists so.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
You don't have to make it. It's true. We are
working on artificial intelligence, Stephen, where you won't even have
to talk to us anymore. Your brain in Elvis's head.
Just think about, Stephen, why do you fight us helping
you by making you do more work all the time.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Here's the video and it is the most one of
the most just the video. Stephen's gonna shoot for you.
He's gonna reenact it tonight. I'm going to need a
reenactment of this. It's in the It takes us in
the daytime, but look and figure it out. We'll do
it night. Shoot yeah lights Okay. So Kathy's family started
noticing that at her gravestone flowers were strewn. Someone was

(47:13):
fucking around with all the shit that they were leaving
on their lovely daughter and sister's gravestone. So they hire
a fucking private detective. He goes and hides in the
fucking bushes or whatever videotaping, and here.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Comes Steve and he punts the flowers on her gravestone.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
She's so angrily and hard I had to pause it.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
I was a freaky. It's an angry fucking person who's
angry that she was fucking someone that night, and also
who's so psychotic that her being dead isn't it enough.
It's like he still can't be like, yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
He They have video of it, so he claims it's
because you know, he was mad at her family or
they were putting plastic flowers on it and he didn't
like it. But then they also show him scratch and
some shit into the fucking gravestund and gets down on
his can scratches like it's insane. Yeah, so I just
I mean, it's so troubling so.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Well, and also just the consistent lying, when people just
constantly lie and lie to your face, do one thing
and then are like, I'm not doing that.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
Yeah I didn't. I never told that person. Like the
person's there and they're like, I swear he told me
that I'm not the liar, right, But you can't. If
you say I'm not the liar, you sound like the
liar is such a liar.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
But I'm not. I'm not, but I'm not the liar.
I swear. It's that thing.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
I like if there was a clone of you and
that looked exactly like you, and they were like, I'm
the real Georgia. Yeah, you seem like the fake Georgia,
because you'd be freaking the fuck out.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yep, in my mind listened. But then you know what
I would do. Here's how you'd note I'm I'm not
the clwent. I know how say it? You say, I
don't give a shit, right, I mean, that's not what
I was gonna say, but it's a it's exactly right, right, Fine,
she can I don't even care. I'm gonna go I
don't even care. I was gonna say, if you show

(49:09):
me like a you know, a duck being friends with
a goat, you'll see my eyes go red and then
you'll know that's.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Okay, all right, I'm going to do next if that
ever happens, I'm going to know to do both.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
It's so it's so much better, though, I don't care.
She can talk to the clone, she'll do it. Let
her have it, talk to the ship.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Okay, So about the conspiracy shit, Kathy's family thinks there's
a conspiracy with the police and the district attorney that
they've been covering for Steve and they'd let him get
away with murder. It's knowledge, it's common knowledge apparently that
Steve's parents are close with the chief of police. But
but inviter but at the same time, it like doesn't

(49:51):
really explain it completely. Another theory that I heard from
Southern Fried Chicken, Thank you, seven Fried Crime is that
the dude that her boyfriend that she was looking up
with might have actually been a prominent citizen from the town,
and in order to not because we don't know his name,
in order to not you know, get it publicized, they
just kind of shove the whole case under the rug right,

(50:15):
no fucking film. They think that no film in the
camera was a conspiracy, as you do. And it also
took the police three years to get to convince the
district attorney to issue a search warrant for the home.
What yes, three years?

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Okay, well then that is even in the Yes, it's
a conspiracy simply because there's the what is was it
called it's the due diligence or like you have to
do things in a timely man? Totally? Is that just
court cases or like it seems to meliating things. Yeah,
it's like all of us. You can't just not do

(50:50):
your job when there's a woman has been killed and
it children have been had there had their mother taken away? Right,
that's yes, all of it.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
That's disgusting and I hate to fucking spoil I spoiler
other you at the end of fucking called justice. Kathy
Ziegler is a fucking monster like she I would not
fuck with her.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
She's amazing.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
And even she can't fucking get them to get an
arrest warrant for him, and she gets so much information
that he against him.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
That she oh, okay, you got to see it.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
I have two more pages, but like, okay, okay, so
when this happens, it takes three years sat the search
warn't so. Kathy's father, James Fulton, is like, I can't
fucking deal with you people anymore. He owns some land
by the eye ten and he's like, watch me, bitch.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Yeah. He puts up all these billboards.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Previous versions included quote and this is huge and you
can see it online. I believe my daughter was raped
while she was being strangled to death. Vider police botched
up the case. And also one that said this could
happen to you, I think said yeah. Another declared this
is Orange County. It's their Texas Orange County online city
of Vider. Here you get by with brutally murdering a woman.

(52:11):
The current sign put up in like twenty twelve or
twenty fourteen, includes a picture of both Steve and Kathy
and it says Steve Page brutally murdered his wife in
nineteen ninety one. Viterer PD does not want to solve
this case. I believe they took a bribe. The Attorney
General should investigate, signed James Bolton.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
Her father.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Oh, like, this guy's not looking around and some people
are like not into these signs at all. And obviously
Steve took the daughters moved out of town pretty quickly.
But then they kind of grew up after that as
orphans because he shacked up with a married woman and
sent them to his sister. They had to end up
living with his grandparents. I mean, it's really sad.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
But in two thousand, Kathy's family sued Steve in civil
court for wrongful death. The civil jury that there was
a preponderance of evidence that Steve killed his wife.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
So that quote found Steve Page killed Kathy Page. And
Steve was found financially liable for Kathy's death, and the
verdict was upheld on appeal, which is big.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
He was ordered to pay two hundred thousand dollars to
her family. Wow.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
He was also convicted and fined and given probation for
the desecration of her grave.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
So he's now sixty one. He lives in Texas. He's
yet to be charged criminally for her murder. His daughters
were sent to live with family. They became a strange
from him, and sadly, the younger daughter, I don't want
to say their names, but you can find it online.
She died of a prescription drug overdose in twenty eleven

(53:45):
at the age of twenty seven.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
Oh that's true. I mean it's a.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Case remains open. And the father has spent more than
two hundred thousand dollars himself on billboards since the early
nineties on his own land. He's now eighty six. Kathy's mother, Dorothy,
died in twin me twelve without ever having a closure
on this. Kathy's father says that quote, this is my
priority and tell my death to try and get something done.

(54:08):
It's not over with yet. I'm fixing to do a
whole lot more than what I've already done. And the
surviving sister who has a blog about this, she apparently
she wrote about it. She hated the billboards and she said,
quote to me, this billboard is not about my mother.
It is about two stubborn, selfish men with too much

(54:30):
guilt to carry. Oh, and that is the true story
of three billboards outside of Edvie, Missouri.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Wow. So the daughter basically feels like the billboards aren't that.
That's just it's more about their fight as opposed to
finding who did the finding who did it?

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Yeah, so it's I wanted to end on his quote
because it's like, yeah, go get them, but the daughter's
the most innocent victim here and it's not doing anything
for her.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Well, and also we know his point of view because
we're getting the billboards say it. He's he's taken that action,
but she's the one that is directly impacted and her
point of view is as important and it is. I mean,
what do you do though, It's it's like, what a
terrible position where that's it feels like the only recourse

(55:20):
that you have is putting up signs on your land
totally that says this hasn't gotten taken care of.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
Well, at the end of this school Justice episode, you're
just like, yeah, like that's all there is to do
because no one is fucking listening and no one will
do anything about this, right, I mean they brought the
case to the district attorney and he refused to uh
to take it on.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Was it the same guy from when it happened? Like,
I don't know, I'm sorry, all right, I don't know. Remember, Wow,
that's amazing, Yeah bananas right, yes, so good? Well, mine
mine is one that I can considered doing. When we
were in San Diego, but it's so awful that I

(56:07):
didn't want to do it for a live show because
it's it's just terrible. I mean, obviously everything we talked
about it was terrible, but this is it's not only
you know, incredibly terrible, but I remember this. This is
one of those in like baseline on TV, on the news,
crimes that nobody could believe, Like when it happened, people

(56:31):
talked about it and freaked out about it, and it
was just in the air, and it happened when I
was fourteen, So I have a very strong memory of
it and when your mind is grasping onto these fucked
up things, right, and it was the Samuel Sidro McDonald's
mass shooting. Oh man, yeah, oh man. So there's a

(56:51):
documentary called seventy seven Minutes that is all about it
and about the survivor's experience. There's a lot of survivors
that speak in it and stuffs, and so if you
want to know more this mostly most of the information
I have is like straight up Wikipedia, But watch that
documentary if you want to get the real inside scoop,

(57:12):
because they're survivors that were inside and that speak about it.
And it's also one of those things. There was a
time in this country, you know, where this never happened
and people had no idea even how to respond, they
didn't know what it was.

Speaker 2 (57:28):
I mean, it's so sad now that you think that
there are people in the generation below us, I mean barely.
I'm so young that think that that public shootings is
a normal thing, when really it's really in the past
for me, like ten years, right, you know, when columbuying
was this fucking insane thing that happened and never ever

(57:49):
happened as far as we knew. And right now it's
like the norm exactly, and we shouldn't we shouldn't let
it be normal.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
I feel like, you know, people say that a lot,
like on social media that don't normalize this and don't
and I always want to say back, it's not that
it's we are. This country's in crisis, and there's so
much terrible stuff happening every day. You can't be reacting
to everything all the time. You go crazy, yeah, and
so like, we.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Don't have you see the next thing in ten minutes.
It's not like you have three days of news coverage
to absorb it exactly, And sometimes makes sense. Sometimes the
next thing in ten minutes is another shooting, and I
think that's that thing like you heard about there's there's
the guy that walked into the bank and shot five
women execution style, and that as you're processing that, then

(58:38):
there's another.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
This fucking couple that killed all the cops in Houston.
That's right, five policemen or did Then then like immediately
you'll hear about that day where you know, then fifteen
people were murdered on the South side of Chicago and
no one ever talks about that, And.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Then people are like, don't talk about it because it
makes the killer want the note to write yes, and
so then you're making it.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
Oh god, it's just the it's insanity. It's like it's insanity.
And we need gun control in this country, yeah, and
we've needed it since the eighties. Just some rules.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
We need some fucking background check, the same kind of
background check you'd need if you've got a fucking abortion
or if you've got a fucking driver's license.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Yeah, basic shit, just some basics. But you know that's
this is that's more of a political that's not rid
law podcast that well no, no, no, I just I just
mean it like if it were I think changes coming
because I think the children who are being directly affected
by this are taking action in ways that we aren't.
It's not I've never had to do a shooting drill

(59:41):
at school. So there there are people that are being
affected by it, who are young and angry, who aren't
going to just go, oh, that's terrible because it's happening
to them amazing. And those people combined with the people
who are in underserved communities where gun violence is like
a de rigeur and who are like, we're just being

(01:00:02):
murdered out here and no one's helping us. I think
it's like the wave of that coming together the people
who are who is affecting trying to live their lives. Yeah,
it's yeah, yeah, so okay, so let's just let's just
go all the way down to the to bad town,
all right. James Huberty was born in Canton, Ohio, on

(01:00:24):
October eleven, nineteen forty two. He had polio when he
was three years old. He had difficulty walking for the
rest of his life. In his early in the early fifties,
his dad moved them to a Pennsylvania Amish country. So
the mother when that happened, she was like I'm not
moving there. So she left the family to go preach

(01:00:47):
for a Southern Baptist organization, which of course affected James
terribly and he becomes withdrawn. He gets married in nineteen
sixty five to a woman named Etna. They have two daughters.
He becomes a welder in his hometown, Canton, Ohio. They
settle down there, but there's lots of strife in the house,

(01:01:08):
domestic violence. They Etna and James don't get a divorce ever, though,
but it's pretty bad. Then James gets into a motorcycle
accident where he has a permanent arm injury and his
arm twitches uncontrollably, so he can no longer be a welder. Yeah,
so he loses his job. He becomes a security guard

(01:01:31):
for a little while the family, and this is like
the darkest. They relocate to Tijuana, Mexico, so obviously things
are going badly. But they come back and settle in
the Sanyasdaro neighborhood is the Dare neighborhood of near San Diego.
He gets a job as a security guard, but then
he loses that job as a security guard. He is

(01:01:54):
depressed over that, but he also is a gun nut
so there are stories his daughters had friends that would
come over the house and they said there would be
guns just laying out on the kitchen table, that he
was often playing with a switchblade. There was just a
lot of like violent overt violent behavior going on all

(01:02:15):
the time. And then on top of that, so on
July seventeenth, nineteen eighty four, James tells his wife Etna
that he thinks he has mental problems, that he thinks
he needs to talk to somebody. And you have to
think of it in the in nineteen eighty four, that
there was a huge social stigma, like even admitting and
I'm sure to your wife was a huge deal. And

(01:02:37):
then from the Midwest, which is like bootstrapsucking central, Yeah,
nobody needs help, don't How dare you need help? And yeah,
and for somebody like this guy who clearly like he
wants to problem solved by killing things. If you create
a problem, if you threaten me, if you make me mad,
I'm going to pull my gun out. Yea. So the
idea that he would then say I have mental issues

(01:02:58):
and I need help is a very big deal. So
he on July seventeenth, he calls a mental health clinic
and asks for an appointment. He leaves his contact details
with a receptionist and she assures him that someone is
going to return his call within the next hour or two.
So he sits next to the phone and waits for

(01:03:20):
that return call. And his wife said he waited for
a couple hours. The call never comes. He gets up,
walks out of the house, gets on a motorcycle and
drives away. So I don't want to blame people, you know, things,
because a lot of people have that that happen to
them and they don't do this stuff. Yes, exactly, but

(01:03:41):
gets fucked up. I mean, it's a crazy It's well here,
So here's what happened. The receptionist misspelled his last name
as Schubertie. And because he was so polite and did
not seem he was that he was an immediate crisis. Yeah,
she didn't put she logged the call as a non
crisis injury inquiry sorry, and that it would be handled

(01:04:04):
within forty eight hours. So her time frame, she didn't
really communicate the correct time frame. Yeah yeah, And in
his mind, clearly he was at the end of his rope.
But she interpreted the call and his behavior as basically
check in on this right. So he comes home from
that motorcycle ride an hour later, and the wife says

(01:04:24):
he seems fine. They have dinner, the whole family rides
bikes to the nearby park. Later on they come home,
the kids go to bed at n and James watch
a movie It's like normal life. The next morning is Wednesday,
July eighteenth, James Huberty takes his wife and their daughters
to the San Diego Zoo and they're having just like
a lovely day, and all of a sudden, he turns

(01:04:47):
to and says, I think my life's over, and she
basically gets him to say he's so angry that the
mental health clinic didn't return his phone call, and he
says to her, will society had their chance? It's not fair, right.
They They go to McDonald's for lunch that day after

(01:05:11):
the zoo, the McDonald's in Claremont, which is where the
tank rampage took place. This is all like in the
same neighborhood. And then they go home. So later that afternoon,
he walks into the bedroom and he kisses his wife,
saying I want to kiss you goodbye, and she asks
where he's going, and he says, I'm going hunting, hunting

(01:05:35):
for humans. Then he walks back. Yeah, he walks out
of the house. On his way out the door, he
says goodbye to his daughter and says, like explicitly says
to her, I won't be back, and Lee's oh my god. So,
at approximately three point fifty six pm, same day, James
Hubert who drives his black Mercury Marquis sedan into the

(01:05:58):
parking lot of the McDonald's on San is Sidro Boulevard.
He's wearing camouflage pants and a black T shirt, and
he is carrying a nine millimeter Browning HP semi automatic pistol,
a nine millimeter Uzzi carbine, a Winchester twelve hundred and
twelve gauge pomp action shotgun, and then he's got a bag,

(01:06:19):
a cloth bag filled with the ammunition. There are fifty
people in the restaurant roughly, so it is a busy afternoon,
and that McDonald's is busy because there's customers and full employees,
full staff. Obviously, he walks in, he yells freeze, he
aims his shotgun at sixteen year old employee John Arnold,

(01:06:43):
and right before he does that, the assistant manager Guierremont
Flores shouts, hey, John, that guy's going to shoot you.
So John Arnold turns around and James Huberty is standing
there and shoots and the gun doesn't This shotgun doesn't
go off, So then John Arnold thinks it's some awful
prank where he's like, what the fuck is this? And

(01:07:06):
as Hubert is looking at his gun, the manager twenty
two year old Neva Caine. And this is the saddest part.
It's all teenagers. Of course, it's a McDonald's eighties. It's
all teenagers working there, or like very young people. So
Niva Kane is the manager and she walks over like hey,
what's going on. She's walking toward the service counter, and

(01:07:27):
that's when James Huberty fires, starts firing the UZI and
he murders Neva Kane right there. And then as he
does that, then he unjams his shotgun and shoots John
Arnold in the chest. Jesus, he yells for everyone to
get down on the ground. He starts calling everyone, he's
calling them dirty swines, and he's shouting that he's killed

(01:07:51):
thousands and he intends to kill thousands more. A lot
of people interpret that as thinking he is a Vietnam veteran,
but afterwards they find he'd never had any military service,
So what does that mean? But I think he was
just trying to be scary and maybe seem like that
kind of person, like I have a bunch of experience
with this intimidate everyone, right, But yeah, that is not

(01:08:13):
the case. Twenty five year old Victor Rivera. So he's
been he just begins shooting up the place, and at
one point, after the screaming and the it's basically clear
that he's basically, I hate all of the people in
this building. I'm going to kill you all. A twenty
five year old man named Victor Rivera begins to plead

(01:08:34):
with him not to harm anybody else, and James Huberty
turns around and shoots Victor Rivera fourteen times and kills him.
Oh my god, So it is this is and this
is the massacre beginning, and it goes on. It's so terrible,
and it goes on for so long, and it's it's
just the worst case scenario scenario in every way starting

(01:08:56):
with and this is tragic and awful because so he
started roughly around almost right before four and so maybe
like a minute or two before four pm. By four pm,
there's all these calls coming into nine one one or
two emergency services, and the dispatcher mistakenly directs all the

(01:09:17):
police to the wrong McDonald's that's two miles from So
there's two within two miles of each other, and they
just give the wrong fuck yah. So since the police
aren't there to lock the scene down for a while,
James Huberty is inside this McDonald's shooting and people are

(01:09:39):
walking up, coming in, pulling into the drive through. Okay,
So a woman named Lydia Flores pulls into the drive through.
She notices shattered windows. She hears the sound of gunfire
before looking up, and she says, looking up and there
he was just shooting. She reverses her car out of
the through, crashes into a fence with her two year

(01:10:04):
old fucking child hid. Her two year old daughter hides
in the car until the shooting stops. Oh my god.
So she basically pulls up to it and then gets away,
crashes and then just hides. Oh shit, this is the
most tragic. And there was actually a picture in the newspaper.
This is I mean, this story was so huge for

(01:10:25):
so long it gives me. It still gives me a chails.
What year was it? Eighty four?

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Okay, because I didn't know about it until I got
older because I was a kid. But I'm sure my
mom would remember it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Yes, And there was a picture that was that I
bet you she remembers because three little boys rode up
on their bikes. Yeah, and there the bikes and basically
Omar Hernandez, Joshua Coleman, and David del Gatto rode up
while in intermittent shooting was taking place. So they rode

(01:10:57):
their bikes up, dropped them outside, went in and were
immediately shot. They actually sorry, they weren't even in the building.
And he's shot and Omar Hernandez and David Delgado died
at the scene. Joshua Coleman, somehow miraculous miraculously survives after
being shot in the back, in the arm and in
the leg. He says he saw his friends murdered. He

(01:11:22):
throws up, he's there, and there is a picture you
guys can go find, but like of the bikes on
the ground, and then there's like an EMT with that
little boy. And it's such a miracle that he survived.
But this is like just this is just the beginning
of this, this massacre. It's just so awful again because

(01:11:44):
there's no police there, No one's locking anything down. An
elderly couple is walking in. Miguel Uola and his wife
Ada are walking in. Miguel's seventy four, Aida is sixty nine.
They're walking in, and right as Miguel opens the door
for Aida, Huberty turns around with the shotgun and shoots her.

(01:12:07):
He starts, Miguel starts screaming at him, of course, and
then he gets shot too. So everybody sees sees that
it's just it's just fucking like most case scenario. People
and people in the restaurant, of course, have hidden under tables.
There are people that are like shot and dragged, have
dragged themselves into the bathroom. You know, it's it's crazy,

(01:12:29):
and everyone's on the ground and and it just keeps going.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
So the shooting just keeps going. Why isn't anyone there?
Why aren't the cops here? Why isn't anyone stopping this person?
Why isn't you know, it's it's a nightmare. I'm sure
that's what they're saying. I'm not I'm not asking that
I'm sure that's what they're thinking.

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
Exactly right, and that the people in he's clearly you
can't talk to him, you can't reason with him, you
can't even be seen so and that that gets established
very early on. So when the officers finally do arrive,
they set up a six block lockdown perimeter. There's one
hundred and seventy five officers that end up at the scene.

(01:13:07):
They set up a command post two blocks away, and
of course a swat team quickly follows, thank god. But
the problem is there's so much gunfire they can't They
think there's a bunch of people shooting up the inside
of McDonald's. And he shot out because he has an
oozy Yeah, he shot out so many windows that they

(01:13:27):
can't see into the the windows are shadowed, but they're like, yeah,
they can't see in, so they can't get a clear view.
They don't they can't get a sense of what's going on.
It's crazy, okay. So at one point and he several
survivors say that they saw Huberty walk toward the service
counter at one point a just a portable radio. He
brought a radio in. He was trying to hear on

(01:13:49):
the news, what was going on? How close the cops were?
My god? And then he put it on a music
station and returned to shooting.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
I mean, let's remember real quick, back to when he
left the house. This is a father of two children. Yeah,
Like suddenly now he's this military psychopath in my head.
But it's like the kids he just shot outside the
fucking rest like restaurant are.

Speaker 1 (01:14:14):
Could be his kids. Yes, this isn't. This isn't some
fucking that's insane. Yes, it's insanity. And he knew he
was going insane. He reached out for help. And then
it's almost kind of that thing of like I think
we've all been in that you're your most vulnerable and
you're and you ask for help and if you get rejected, Yeah,

(01:14:36):
like that makes a person never ask for anything again.

Speaker 2 (01:14:38):
Yeah, but it's the thing of like, but then those
most of those people don't go kill a bunch of
innocent people.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Of course, Mike, But then they'll be a little bit
of a there's other things. Oh, there's other things at play,
let's hear it. But you're right, I mean, like, this isn't.
It's almost like culturally, it's as if like, oh, here's
the solution. Are you upset, have you been rejected? Are
you mad at women? Are you mad at people that
don't look exactly like you? Well, then here's what you
can do about it. Here's an UZI, here's a fucking shotgun.

(01:15:06):
Whatever that's like. There are people who that's their belief
system and they have access to those weapons. Yeah, finally,
at five seventeen PM, so it's four o'clock as when
he fucking start, and it's been in seventy seven minutes.
The documentary is called seventy seven minutes because it's an
hour and seventeen only count. That is insane, it's horrifying.

(01:15:27):
But they finally they get up onto the post office
that's across the street that has an unobstructed view into
the McDonald's, and for one second, Huberty appears in this
guy's scope. He can see it's basically just his head,
and so he takes the shot and fires a single

(01:15:48):
round and he shoots Huberty in the chest. He sends
him sprawling backwards onto the floor in front of the
service counter and kills him instantly. Good. So, as I said,
the incident lasted seventy seven minutes, during which time James
Huberty fired a minimum of two hundred and forty five

(01:16:09):
rounds of ammunition. He killed twenty one people and wounded
many many others. The victims, whose ages ranged from eight
months to seventy four years, were predominantly, not exclusively, but
predominantly Mexican or Mexican American, which is obviously the racial

(01:16:30):
element behind that and clearly part of this man's either
agenda or insanity, whatever it might be. So the victims
were Claudia Perez, who was nine years old at least
her Linda Borboa Firo who was nineteen, Jose Rubin Lozano

(01:16:50):
Perez who was nineteen, Niva Denise Kane, the manager, who
was twenty two, Michelle dian Caarncross who is eighteen, Carlos
Ree who is eight months old, Maria Elena Cole Marino
Silva who was nineteen, Jackie Lynn Wright Reyes who is eighteen,
Gloria Lopez Gonzalez who is twenty two, Victor Maximilian Rivera

(01:17:13):
who's twenty five, Aris Delsi Vargas who was thirty one,
bleth Regan Herrera who was thirty one, Hugo Lewis of Alaskeez,
Vasquez who was forty five, Matteo Herrera was eleven, Paulina
Aquino Lopez who was twenty one, Lawrence Hermann vs. Luis

(01:17:34):
was sixty two, Margarita Padilla was eighteen. Oh David Flores
Delgado was eleven, Omar Alonzo Hernandez was eleven, Miguel Victoria
Loa was seventy five, was seventy four, and Ada Healoa
was sixty nine. Five of the dead were under eleven
years old. In nineteen eighty six, this shooting was the

(01:17:58):
deadliest mass murder in the United States until nineteen ninety one. Now,
and as we know now, it happens much more often afterwards.
In nineteen eighty six at Huberty, people were very upset
because she was she got money from the victims Fund,

(01:18:20):
which she was a victim too. It's understandable that people
are upset. It's so hard. There's nothing about this that
isn't the worst scenario, where like there's nothing, there's no winners,
there's nothing good, it's all it's all deep tragedy.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
It's so hard to like find your humanity, your own humanity,
when someone has fucking just stomped all over it. You know,
and it's so hard, yes, but in the face we
know we need to feel it and have it or
else we're you know, that's the problem with people is
who do shit like this is they have no fucking humanity,

(01:18:55):
that's right. So we need to make sure that we
pay attention to our and keep.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
It, yes, exactly and hold it and no understand that
that's that part of it. But it's like, but if
you're super close, like a victim, start totally situation, it's
just it's not I to understand. In nineteen eighty six,
so of course there was a million lawsuits about this
because of that that amount of time that no one came.

(01:19:18):
There were people running out and going, please someone help us,
like it was the worst, the worst, the worst, and
like all the you know, the police were it must
have been absolutely horrifying because it's a swat team that
they're like, we can't get a shot and we don't
know what to do. Yeah, they just it was it
was not well done, Like what could have been what

(01:19:40):
could have changed and what could it have been better
about this? I mean because they you would you would
think or you might want to argue that they should
storm into the McDonald's right, but there's so much gunfire
they think there could be five people in that. They
don't know what's happening and they can't see it even
still though it's such a long time, it's it's horrible,
so long. So so there was so many lawsuits just

(01:20:02):
every direction. But interestingly, at Huberty unsuccessfully tried to sue
McDonald's and Babcock and Wilcox, which was her husband's longtime
former employer, in an Ohio state court for five million dollars.
The suit claimed that the massacre was triggered by both
a poor diet now uh huh and her husband working

(01:20:24):
around highly poisonous metals, further citing that monosodium lutamate in
McDonald's food, combined with the high levels of lead and
cadmium that were discovered in Huberty's body at his autopsy,
they were, they were he was a welder, and so
he had a ton of heavy metals and bad toxic
shit and his system. Basically, they think the build up

(01:20:47):
from the fumes that he inhaled during his fourteen years
of welding at Babcock and Wilcox had induced delusions and
uncontrollable rage. Here's the thing, as we say, but then
why aren't all all the welder's doing it right? Because
that's because no, the autopsy did reveal there were no
drugs or alcohol in James. James's system, which almost does

(01:21:11):
that freak you out.

Speaker 2 (01:21:12):
Sometimes I want to see massive amounts of amphetamines, so
I'm like, okay, great.

Speaker 1 (01:21:17):
Exactly there's none because they're all in his brain, right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Because you know what, sometimes like this is the argument
is fucking people have chemical imbalances.

Speaker 1 (01:21:26):
It's not simple, no, you know no, And it's the
thing of when I think in that position, the tragedy,
of course, is that he wanted to get help. He
gave them basically two hours, and then that's it. Let's
not give him too much credit for that though, yeah,
not at all. But I will say this is if
it's that thing of if you have he basically had this,

(01:21:50):
whether it was because he was a welder or because
he had you know, the sad life that he did
have before, whatever the fuck it was. You can't just
that idea that well I made that one phone call,
now I go get to kill everybody, is just I
don't even know why I said, Bundy.

Speaker 2 (01:22:10):
It's the same thing with fucking Ted Bundy and all
having notes about you fucking being He's not. You know,
there's scared little men who has violent tantrums. It's all
he has a violent tantrum, right, you know, or like
he feels little and and you know what what fucking
helps is killing women or shooting people. It makes me

(01:22:30):
feel bigger, right, or just control.

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
This is how I teach everybody a lesson because I've
been hurt or rejected or fired or whatever it is.
Does something good come out of this? Any laws? One
of the victims became a San Diego policeman. Amazing and
this and if you watch this documentary, I haven't watched
the entire thing, but that it has all the people

(01:22:55):
telling their story, the way it's affected their life, the
impact it's had on their life, of course, which is
very bad, but it's also that kind of thing of
like this is the more these kinds of stories get
out where it's this is what happens when you're on
this side of it, right, that we should prevent this,
not because it's a political argument or because I believe
this or I wear this color hat or whatever it's.

(01:23:19):
You decimate, You decimate fifty people's lives in ten minutes.
When you walk in somewhere with an oozy and bad
metals in your brain or a grudge or whatever the problem.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
It's when my mom and I were arguing loudly at
a nice pizza restaurant about gun control as you over
white wine, as you do as one does. My argument,
her argument of anyone should be able to, you know,
have guns in their house and all this shit, and
I we you know, her six year old grandson. I'm
saying to her if he went on a playdate, would
you really want the person he's going over to their

(01:23:52):
house to have, you know, an assault rifle in their
fucking house?

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
Right is?

Speaker 2 (01:23:57):
Are you okay with that? Would you let them do that?
Because it's a fucking right quote unquote no, And she
fucking couldn't answer that, of course, because it's insane. It's like,
it's great and everything is fine until it's you and
it's happening to your life, and you need to put
yourself and have have some basic fucking empathy and put
yourself in the shoes of the people who survived it

(01:24:17):
and the families whose loved one didn't survive it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:21):
This wasn't supposed to be a gun lecture. Also, you know,
we're preaching to the converted so hard right now. But
I know, but anyway, I just I have a very
I mean maybe or not and that's important too.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
Or maybe people who don't vote are listening because they
don't like to get out of their house on that day.

Speaker 1 (01:24:38):
You know, maybe it's or are undecided. It's important. Yeah,
let's have less violence. Also, just this this one, just
having seen it from like it we used to just
watch the news at night and so whatever was on
the news just went straight into my brain and the
northers happened. It was it really, it had this really

(01:25:00):
intense ripple effect on this country in a way that
like things didn't that much back then because there was
no social media and there was no whatever. It was intense,
it was crazy and it's really sad. Definitely. Yeah, well
that was I mean you told that well, I mean,
thank you girl.

Speaker 2 (01:25:21):
I'm going to touch that shit. I know she did good, No,
but you did a great job.

Speaker 1 (01:25:25):
I just wanted it. It felt like one of those things.
It's uh feels like one of those ones where were
just like, but it should get said.

Speaker 2 (01:25:32):
Right and maybe especially because it's of an underrepresented group
or the majority who got killed. Yes, it's important to
tell that story.

Speaker 1 (01:25:42):
Yes for sure. And shit, I mean yeah, good job,
thank you. Now let's never do the high five murders.
Oh god, I mean Jesus, that's the one that I
will never ever know. Yeah that was great. Okay, So
what's your fucking ray for this week? Okay, So my
fucking hooray. I'm seeing a new therapist. Nice. She's great.

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
I was talking to her about my self esteem and
how fucking hard it is to read one negative comment
on Instagram amidst a ton of the kindest you know,
Murderino's overall, and people who comment on my answer like
the kindest people. I can't get over it. If I

(01:26:27):
could cry, I would, and one will affect me so
negatively and make like such a bummer. So she was like, well,
you know what you should try?

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
And I was like, oh god, what is she going
to tell me to meditate?

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
And she said, recently I started watching Cardi B's videos
on Instagram, and I was like, oh, I like, I'm
so bad with pop culture. I don't really I've heard
of her. I know that story kind of ideas I
don't know the music, so I was like, Okay, this
is weird, and I went home and thought and watched

(01:27:01):
a couple of Cardi B videos.

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
I do what I like to do. I do Mike,
I do God, but I like to do it. That's
a little noise she makes. I am so in love
with Cardi B.

Speaker 2 (01:27:14):
And her fucking Instagram video is the best, and her
as a person, I am I it's incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
She's the best. Did you see the speech she gave
about how the government needs and your pussy, Yes, you
go to you go to get check your pussy, check
your pussy. Somebody remix that song that into a song
that's amazing. It's on my Twitter feed if you want
to see it. And one of my favorite comedians who's
now writing on SNL Bow and Yang, he does this
thing where he does lip syncs of those so he

(01:27:44):
did one from Devil worsh Products. Oh my god, he
does these. They're really good videos. And he did hers
like word for word, gesture for gesture Rann and it's
so funny.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
Can I give a shout out to someone else that
I know who does that, who's amazed that does that
with like a movie so he does like a lot
of He'll do like a Parker Posey fucking monologue and shit,
and he's amazing and I've been meaning to fucking talk
about him. Hold on, it's the Johnny Smith and he
does Johnny lip Sync hashtag and the hashtag is Johnny
lip Sync. And he'll do these to these fucking insane

(01:28:19):
old movies like Postcards from the Edge and shit, and
just he's crying.

Speaker 1 (01:28:22):
I love it. But yeah, Cardi B.

Speaker 2 (01:28:24):
I'm inspired by her.

Speaker 1 (01:28:28):
You know how many funcks she gives Z zero. I'm
just so I'm amazed, and I want to I want
to channel Cardi B. She has one of my favorite
lines in any song ever, any lyric. She says the
only time that I'm a ladies when a ladies hose

(01:28:49):
to rest. She has there's so much her rhymes. I'm
not gonna talk about rap like I fucking know anything
but clever, so good and also but also just like,
let's go to see her. Let's go see her, and
let's go see Lizzo. Lizzo is going on tour in April.

Speaker 2 (01:29:09):
This has spell her name, so everyone l i z
z oh she Oh my god, she's got our like
backstage before we go on stage in the green room,
anthem like, this is our gal who we fucking listen to?
And seeing as we're walking towards the stage, Yes, what's
the song called it?

Speaker 1 (01:29:24):
Do my head? Uh? Check my name as hell? The
songs called good as Hell. I've tweeted it a ton
of peer. She also has a new song called Juice
that's incredible. She's and also she was she's like hitting
the big time now she's doing Coachella. She's doing a
bunch of stuff. So she plays the flute. She plays

(01:29:45):
the flute and hits the shoot. She's the fucking shit.
I love her so much. She's the ship. And also
she has that thing where that her lyrics are really
like they're empower they're really like, sorry, let me just
remember this one because I I just texted this, so
here's this will be as I try to remember that.

Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
I'll say this Steven. We stepped out five am editing Steven,
so we sound smart.

Speaker 1 (01:30:07):
I'm so sorry. No, you can leave that part in.
But my therapist gave me this assignment. I've started going
to therapy twice a week. I love it and it
feels amazing because I talk so fucking much, and can't
I have to monologue at her. I don't like the
feeling when we're like staring at each other. She's like, yeah,
let's feel that for a second. So how does that

(01:30:27):
make you feel? So it's almost like there's the download. Uh,
I'm just gonna say episode appointment no Espionage. Well, we're
gonna start.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Putting Karen's therapy sessions out as the podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:30:42):
Everyone would roll theirize the hardest, yes, but listen to it.
But so it's like the first day I kind of
barf out all the things that I'm worried about, and
then we get to like workshop it for a whole
nother day.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
Whenever I hear people who go to therapy more than
once a week, I'm like, you're doing the fucking work
because your therapist said to you you need to come
in more than once a week, which makes you think,
oh shit, oh she's fucking crazy. Yes, guy knew dude
who went three times a week. Yeah, hell yeah. And
it's like, all you're doing is the work you need
to be doing well, And it's I am so as

(01:31:16):
we all are. No one's look, we're all we all
have anxiety.

Speaker 1 (01:31:20):
We're all stressed out. We're all scared. We all have these.

Speaker 2 (01:31:23):
Issues and there's like basic obvious reasons that have nothing
to do with being having a chemical imbalance.

Speaker 1 (01:31:29):
No, like, just just fucking start with right, it's the
way we're we're built to have anxiety that I just
read this somewhere. We are all the human beings that
lived because we have anxiety. We stayed away from the
fucking saber to Tiger's cave and we don't touch the fire.
We ran into the forest so that we wouldn't get killed,

(01:31:49):
and then didn't and then now and then now we
stay out of the forest because they're serial killers there,
Like we have to find out which way we go
in the forest. That's right when we're out. But we're
filled with anxiety that we know now societally interpret as
a negative, which it's not necessary. Right, you're not crazy,
it's natural. It's how our reptilian brains are building. I
also think it makes me kind of like quirky and fun.

(01:32:10):
Sure you also you love cats. I love cats. But
she gave me this exercise and she said, every day
you have to write down five things not that you're
grateful for, because that's conceptual, write down five things that
made you feel good in the moment. It can be
anything that tiny, yes, the tiny big whatever that gave

(01:32:33):
you a shot of actual emotion of yay and or
whatever it was a little like a little moment, and
just start recording them because I often have that thing
where I feel I can't handle shit, so I just
shut it all down. Yes, it's all it's none of
my business. Ye ye, how I feel it is a mistake.

(01:32:54):
I like, don't don't just be neutral all the time,
or just like I can't do it right now. If
I reacted real time, it would be bad. So I
just don't do anything, got it. But the problem with
that is you then you are not feeling the good things.
Then you forget what's good, You forget what you like,
you forget and then that's how I personally, that's how

(01:33:17):
I get into abusing substances because I feel like I
need to replace it with like real good life experiences instead.
It's like I can't handle any of that. I'll just
go home and like eat, I'll go home and get high.
I'll go home and just lay there and watch TV.
All those things that do not serve me. And so
in trying to peel that behavior back. You have to
remember what is good. Like. You can't just peel back

(01:33:40):
things that are giving you comfort and then stand there.
You have to like make lists of things you like.
So I've been doing it daily, and she said you
have to do it with somebody else so that you
do it. So I immediately thought of Lizzie. I knew it.
I knew Cooperman. Lizzie Cooperman is our obviously our friends.
It's almost not there because of course it's it's easy

(01:34:01):
for her, it's she. I didn't even have to explain it.
I go, will you do this thing? And she's like
totally like she it was like she was waiting to
do it. I love it. So it's just these lists
and they're so odd, but it's just a thing that
actually made you happy real time, in a real moment,
And it can be just hearing this person's voice on
the phone.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
You every time, Will you do it with me for
like one day a week?

Speaker 1 (01:34:27):
Absolutely, I just feel like we're in each other's business
so much, so much. But yes about it, because I'm
telling you having done this now for like I think
it's a week or two, maybe two, I am feeling
real time things where I go, oh, I want more

(01:34:47):
of this feeling. I'm going to do these. It's it's
like I noticed it more too, because you're like, oh,
I have to tell Lizzie that later.

Speaker 2 (01:34:54):
It's like, oh, this thing right now feels good. That's
going to be on my list today exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:34:58):
Or if you've if I I've spent I want to
say you so bad, but it's me. If I've spent
the day in my house talking to no one but
George and Frank, there's nothing to put on that list.
So I have to go, like, at least go to
the store and talk to one old lady because you
need some shit on your good list. And I swear
it is like it's like waking up this thing inside

(01:35:19):
me where I'm like, I get to feel good shit
real time. I get to be vulnerable be in the
world and I like it. I can handle it. I
like it. It's good And that's the only way to get
more good stuff. It's practices, that's you know, yeah, it's
your therapy practice. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:35):
And then the word practice is so important because it's
not do it or don't do it and do it right. No,
it's like keep practicing keep practicing.

Speaker 1 (01:35:43):
And I think the reason she did it because there's
been tons of times where, like I will, Lizzie sends me,
you know, two days in a row and I'm like,
what the fuck is this? And I'm like, oh my god,
I didn't do my list.

Speaker 2 (01:35:53):
Well, Lizzie does this thing. I kind of think this
is it. She's only taught me this, and I know
it's fun. It's like Gail or someone's fucking thing, but
Oprah or Gayle, you're not sure it. It's the Tada
list instead of the to do list. And Lizzie of
course told me that so long ago.

Speaker 1 (01:36:07):
And I was like, oh my god, what's that like accomplishment?
You know, you write your fucking to do this. I
need to do this. I need that.

Speaker 2 (01:36:13):
You're at the end of the day, tadalist shit, I
fucking did right this week or this day.

Speaker 1 (01:36:17):
You know, yes, toada motherfucker.

Speaker 2 (01:36:20):
Yeah, Like that needs to be credited to someone because tada, motherfucker. No,
just to the I'm gonna look it up because it's
nobody's not claiming it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:28):
But Steven and I were googling it. Okay, great, yeah,
like little practices, like you say, little practice remind yourself
that you're not just a total piece of shit. Well,
and also it's the thing too, you know it's to me.
I always get worried when you and I talk about
like our real experiences at the top of the show,
because I don't want people to be mad at us

(01:36:50):
or hate us for being in a great position and
still complaining. Like that's my fear. Yeah, But I realized
in kind of making these less and stuff, I have
so much to be overjoyed about every day. I could,
I could fill up ten lists, but I focus on
what's negative, what I need to fight, what I need

(01:37:11):
to do, what I'm not doing. Like all I do
is focus on the bad stuff, and it makes the
hugest difference when, like I can remind myself all your
dreams are coming true. Is this the beginning of our
mental health podcast? I feel like it is. I mean
it could be. I drink a can of wine. I

(01:37:33):
just I just worry if we if we name it that,
that the lawsuits will be coming down the mount. Karen
and George's said that it's the first one we steal,
that we stole, that stolen.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
Who did I steal? I want to know who I
stole that from because I know, but Lizzie, it's Lizzie's fault.

Speaker 1 (01:37:51):
If we do that, we have to pull Lizzie into it.
That's oh my god. She could be our therapist and
the terro readers. Yeah cool. Yeah. It was like, a
that's a beautiful fucking oh it's called fucking right. It's
called fucking right. Yeah, wow, yeah, good job, thank you.
It's actually I've instead of like talking about a TV show,

(01:38:12):
I was like I should just say I was not
gonna say it because I was like, oh, that's weird
and private, this is I shouldn't do it. Oh my god,
show show it off. And every time I listen to
my therapist talk, I'm like, god, I wish more people
could hear her talking. Yeah, she said today, she said
this thing she goes when human beings aren't supported and
they don't have anyone that we just can't that's the

(01:38:34):
way she said it. And I was like, like, she's
just deep, but in that real way of like this
is the truth. Yeah, this is this is how it
is for people. I dig it, me too. I dig
it fucking shit. Man, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:38:48):
We barfed it out this week, and I think it's
you know, flash everyone your emotion, flash everyone yourself. Why
not like pull down like pull down your tube top,
pulled down your.

Speaker 1 (01:38:59):
Soul sive tube. Cop that's right, and get your sultit
slash slash your salt. I promise you'll be rewarded with beads,
right with Mardi grub. Yes, life with spiritual life beads,
spiritual sulted life beads that you're flashing at every other
human being. And then there we go and everyone's better.

(01:39:20):
Yes the end, everything's cured. Did we do it? We
saw it? Gun control, We solved. God, this was a great.
We really did a solved. Complaining complaining vulnerability.

Speaker 2 (01:39:32):
Listen, vulnerability twenty twenty right, that's what's going to happen,
vulnerable ability.

Speaker 1 (01:39:39):
Gosh, thanks for listening, guys, Thanks to everybody got to
this point. Fuck man, Wow, you're cured. You must need something.
Go find it. We support you. Good luck. Let us
know what you find and stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye.
Holy shit, elness, you want a cookie