259 - Fake Snow In Glendale

On this week’s episode, Karen and Georgia cover the history of lobotomies and the Smuttynose Axe Murders.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hello, and well, tme my favorite murder the podcast. That's
Georgia Hertstar and that's Karen kil Gariff.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Uh, how's it going, everybody?

Speaker 1 (00:27):
How are you? How are your parents? How's your sister?
Your friends? Your dog? Do you want to talk about
your dog? Well, just so happens. I have one now
and her name is Cookie. That's a little tribute to
Elvis and I think we fucking won the dog wattery.
She's this little teeny tiny wire terrier. She's nine weeks old.

(00:49):
She was found in the streets and mut scouts rescued
her and I am I just can't. I am so happy.
It's so it's turned out it right. Having a puppy,
it is, it's really exciting. They're very cute. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
I just kind of been watching because Dottie is right
over your shoulder.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
It's like she's it's like she's looking, she's listening to
you tell the story, and she's just like.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Uh huh, I'll be over here. Oh do you love
that puppy? It brings you joy. She just turned, she
believes her back turned to me right now. And how's
how's Cookie doing? Cookie? Can't wait? I met the cat.
Cookie can't wait. She's definitely a chaser, so don't run.
But Mimi is like excited, Memi's no, what am I

(01:36):
talking about? Mimi is fine, she's an alpha Dottie's trying
to follow her lead. And it's been three days and
they're already like kind of okay, So I'm looking forward
to it.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
I like, I mean, they can always just go up high.
That's not saying that Kats. They have the good this
the great advantage where it's like they're learning that it's escape.
I can't wait till everyone's just in a fucking caddle puddle.
But I'm gonna wait. I know it's starts.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yes, yeah, it's fucking it's This is my first puppy,
and it's my first like dog that's mine, you know,
Like I had an ex that I lived with her
had a dog, and my brother had a dog, but
this is like my first dog. Yeah, yeah, it feels
like it feels like I definitely think there would be

(02:26):
no issue with me getting a like certified what's it
called when they take care of your your your anxiety
and you can bring them on planes emotional support. Yeah,
like I feel like it's obviously going to emotionally support me.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
And in life, like right, you know what I mean?
Fun lucky cookie. Yeah, make the plan, make the plan, but.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
I just feel like it it brings me down a
level of anxiety immediately, you know, so like and she's
tiny after a bringer everywhere. So it's it's like it's
just gonna it's gonna be helpful once we start leaving
the house again.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah right, these are your future plans, post your post
quarantine plants. Right of being the person that takes their
dog everywhere. Yeah, but it's a blue vest on their dog.
Oh oh you mean.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Like I thought I wasn't like a hoodie or like
a flight bomber jacket, you mean like an emotional support.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
No, that's it just makes me think of this lady
that we were.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
In the the the what do you call it?

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Great cheesecake? I want to call it the American Cheesecake Factory.
Great cheesecake mistake. I think it's called it's called cheesecake factory. Oh,
there's no, there's nothing before it. There's no great about it.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
There's nothing great. Big isn't bad, I will say, yeah,
come to think of it.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
I mean, but honestly, those avocado eg girls are legit.
Have you had them?

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (03:50):
You don't like them?

Speaker 3 (03:51):
They know what they're doing. They know what they're doing.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
There, there's there's no there's the reason it's fucking packed,
and you have to have one of those weird buzzers
and stand around. We were waiting for a table one
time and a lady walked in. A lady walked in
with this poodle with the blue vest on and immediately
started yelling at everybody that it was her emotional support dog.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
And I literally I looked at her, like, lady, do
not bring that over here?

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Like Los Angeles is chalk full of these people where
it's like entitled. I need to explain to you how
incredibly my emotions we're just we're look, we're all at
the cheesecake factory that we all have emotions.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
No one's doing a need.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
You don't need a pet, you're just here.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
I definitely won't be one of those people. If I'm
going to bring my dog to a dining situation, I'm
going to make sure that there's outdoor dining and dogs
are allowed, and it's also not a global pandemic, because
I'm just going to stay home in that case.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, no, you're talking about twenty twenty three.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, and I hear you. I'm hearing I would never
bring my dog to a cheesecake factory.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
This is my emotional support avocado egg roll and if is.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Gone, so wearing a little blue vest, you know it's gone.
It's gonna be great in twenty twenty three? Is that emotion?
People who need emotional support dogs for indoor restaurants, we
can just you can order it and have it delivered
to your emotional support indoors and your emotional support home.
And it ain't no thing.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
It ain't no thing. People will be no, here's a thing.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
Crabby. People like me won't give a shit.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
But you could have a fucking emotional support donkey with
hay in its mouth, and I'd.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
Be like, oh my god, that's so cute.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
I'm sorry about your feelings because it'll be so exciting
to be in public and be in a restaurant that
it'll be like anything.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Going now, is the hay in the emotional support donkey's mouth?
Emotional support?

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Hey?

Speaker 4 (05:43):
Because I was, Oh, yeah, that donkey is fucked up,
that donky. It's brought to fucking human places. Those fountains
are dancing what's happening. It's just like there's fake snow
in Glendale at Christmas? And why are we even at
a mall in Christmas? It's like the worst idea.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
It's two pack. I'm so nervous. Just am I gonna
get fucking reindeer horns put on my head? And you're
gonna pass me up as a rain horn? You're gonna
like children on me? Please?

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Are you gonna make me go to j crue and
try on those really narrow pants?

Speaker 3 (06:13):
Like?

Speaker 1 (06:13):
I don't none of it? Please? I just want to
stay home and eat my emotionals. Beport.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
Hey, please did you see that it actually hailed so
hard it looked like it was snowing in the Malibu Canyon?

Speaker 1 (06:25):
No?

Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yes, like two days ago or three days ago?

Speaker 1 (06:29):
Can they handle hail in Malibu?

Speaker 2 (06:32):
I don't think so. They've been through so much, they've
had such a hard time. But it was really mind
blowing video.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
You should try.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well. I'm just saying that so that when you and
I talk about how cold we are during this episode
and the people in fucking know Malaska are like shut up.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
We're like no, but there was hale. You don't understand.
I mean the people one stayed over and where's one
state over? Oregon are like, shut the fuck up, La,
this is but it's everybody.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
I mean everyone's older than us, always everybody. Also everyone
wants us to shut up. That's because of our emotional support, Hail.
It never ends with us.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
It's our emotional sport podcast. Deal with it. But it's
really fucking cold. It's not that cool for us for
a context. I think you're higher up and in the valley,
and so you get a little you get more cold.
But listen, I'm always freezing my tits off.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
So it's just I'm saying for Los Angeles, which has
been a blazing oven for the last eleven months. Huh yeah,
it's rough. Yeah, fifty three. I mean I don't know,
So what are you?

Speaker 1 (07:36):
I don't know what are you doing to hibernate? Why? So,
what do you do this winter season? I ask you
a question and I know the answer is going to
be no, And I'm going to be angry because if
it was asked to me in your situation, I would
be saying yes, always. Have you gotten your hot tub
one fucking time? It's like, what's this note?

Speaker 2 (07:56):
Right? No?

Speaker 3 (07:57):
But it's only because I don't don't really.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Know how to turn it out. That makes sense. I wouldn't.
I wouldn't just even try to guess at all.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
It's like, there's a series of buttons and buttons and
my pool tech WHOA has shown me how to do
that's what they're called great good for them, all right,
and he knows a ton of shit way more than me,
and he showed me probably four times, and I can't
every time I go over there, it's a brand new scenario.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Can I make a suggestion and this is write it down? No,
take a picture, video it, video it. That's a great idea.
I think that, Yeah, I have videoed some ship that
I'm like, there's no way I would have remembered how
to do this, and it's like and it works and
then you learn yeah actually when I well, yeah, yes,
the end. You can't talk about it. Well, it's just

(08:50):
sounded like a non nonsequator. Is that a thing that
when I was taking drumming lessons? What nonsequator? What's it called?

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Oh? A non sequitor? You I thought you meant a nonsecretor.
I was like, what in.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
The a half and half of that thing? Non sequitor? Well,
when I was learning drumming a million years ago. I
just take, you know, an hour long drumming class and
he teach me this whole thing, and I'd be like, great,
I'm going to video you now, And that's the only
way I like. I wouldn't remember anything from the class.
I would just like practice by watching the video, right,

(09:24):
So whatever, that's why I would tell the story. It's
not that it's him doing it. That's why I was.
That's why I was. That's why I was a nonsecretor
this just wasn't great.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Nothing came of it, nothing happened. I'm just saying, were
you into that drumming teacher? Is that what we're actually
tough now about?

Speaker 1 (09:43):
Right now?

Speaker 5 (09:44):
Okay, bless his heart. He was a sweetheart. There was
no sexual chemistry. Bless his heart, his heart. Do you
want me to go into a correction scorn? Oh please,
I have one too, Okay, good?

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, because we haven't we weren't recorded in a while,
so this is an old one. But from the last
episode where we did record, I was talking about how
much I loved the show All Things Great and Small,
which I continue to love and I continue to recommend. However, Oh,
problem is, problem is I was so proud because the

(10:18):
season started in episode one in the train station in Glasgow, Scottland.
Got it right, my sister city because I lived there
for three and a half months or something like that.
So I get real, like Scotland proud when I see
Scottish stuff.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
I'm part of that. That's my neighborhood. We've beenham and
we've been there since. It's like not a foreign place.
Well it's foreign, but it's not a foreign place to us.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
Right and yeah, so I feel real like, you know,
a special citizen. Anyhow, So I explained this show and
said that that the young James Harriet gets on the
train and takes it north into this Scottish islands basically
and didn't think twice about it, and essentially the reason,

(11:06):
and this is what they call confirmation bias. I told
it that way is because when I took the train
in Scotland, I went north. So that's just like that
was my experience, so that must be what this TV
show show. Yeah, I got a tweet from someone named
Helen Liptrot who literally just had the sentence. She just
wrote the sentence, or they just wrote the sentence. All

(11:29):
things great and small is set in Yorkshire. Bye.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Oh yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
He takes the train south to England to Yorkshire to
work on it, and that's where the entire incredibly famous
book and television series is set in Yorkshire, England. So Helen,
my apologies. That was one of the I don't know why,
but it felt like one of the harshest corrections of
all time because there was no interest, no passion.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
It was almost like now I have to come and
tell you.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Sit all too. It's like, no, like, it's all cool.
I know that people get a bit mistuck in all
the time and you're shade fucking California. But I wonder what,
like if we were, like if someone from England were like,
it takes place in New York, We're like, no, fucking doesn't.
It takes place in Cape cod How do you not
know that? You're like a thing like that, Like what
it would what the equivalent would be us?

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Well, we'd get that wrong too, That's that's true.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
One thing.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
We can really take it.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Probably to heart. No matter what. If it's Canada, it's
the US and we don't buy No.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
If it's Canada, whatever, then good for long province.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
All right, Well, micro action, So Helen, Helen, my apology.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
My correction, I think was actually really cool. It was
like a learning experience for me. So remember how I
was like making fun of microwaves for being that you
could pre program them from some like and you were
like making your meat loaf on your way home from work, Sure,
turn on the microwave. Well it turns out. Yeah. So

(13:00):
someone on Twitter or Instagram I don't remember, no Instagram
called badass mother and that's bad with two b's was like, hey,
the reason that those are able to the reason that
those exist are for people who are visually impaired. And
I was like, oh, oh, what a great idea. I'd
take it all back. And I'm happy to hear that

(13:22):
that's all. Yeah, correction, It's not just some dumb fucking
thing that that big microwave used to jack up the
prices of microwaves and like make rich people feel okay
about having a microwave, you know what I mean? Right?

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, yeah, okay, good to know. Should we talk briefly
spoiler free about the Night Soccer Up television show.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
It's been so long since I've watched it. I feel
like I have so many notes at how how good
it was and like powerful, right, this is not it was?
I mean, yeah, it was so well done. It was people.
Here's the thing.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
True crime as a popular trend isn't going away anytime soon,
and people are just getting better and better at it.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
And like right, and knowing what we actually want from it.
That's a great point.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
It's really impressive. And this series, I don't know about you.
I binged it all the night it came out.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
No, we didn't do that, but we didn't like and
Vince watched it too, which was like, which is always
a good time. He was like, I might not be
able to get through this, let's try it. And then
the next day was like, do you want to finish it?
So that's always good. Yeah, he's willing to risk. The
pre of it, I mean, the time and placeiness of
it is one of my favorite things about The Good Truth,
where it's like, here's what it was like back then,

(14:40):
and here's and it's part of the reason everyone was terrified,
and it's it was the first time that they were like,
you know, it's just coming off of the Hillside Strangler,
but this time people were like, you know, whatever the
fuck is so good. It was amazing. Yeah, yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
And the great Frank Silerno, the detective who basically worked
on every famous murder case in Los Angeles in the
seventies and eighties, is a huge part of it. And
it's really cool to hear him talking and it.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Was his case. They yeah, but then call Carilla coming
in and being like, hey, I'm a young guy, but
fuck you, here's what it is. Underdog city, smart as
a fucking whip, and like it wouldn't I don't know
if it would have been solved, at least not when
it was without him at all, right, of.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Course, not, no, no, no, no, incredible. Yeah, if you
if you are looking and you haven't watched it yet,
which I I don't know. I bet it got really
good reviews people probably have watched it, but definitely watch it.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
It's it's a real bingeer. It's unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
It's so fun too when you watch it a thing
from your town or your name, you know, southern California
and being like, I fucking grew up with that report.
Tony Valdez, Oh my god, that was my fucking news guy. Yeah.
And then Zoe Turr I was just amazed by She's
the one who started the helicopter and news reporting. Yeah, fascinating,

(16:04):
Like just such a cool, such a cool story.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
You learn a time, like there's a lot it's not
just the crime, it's the culture around the crime. It's
and then there's a bunch of survivors, victims, families, like
it's told very it's very full story. Yeah, it's not
just it's the way they're doing it these days. It's

(16:29):
just beautifully done.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Cool. What else are you watching?

Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, well, I this is an old recommendation and I
think people told us this like the first time we
went to the UK and this got recommended. I've known
about it for a while, but I never found it.
It's called Crime Story and it's on Amazon, and it's
from the I think late eighties or early nineties.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
It's British and they're basically, I.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Think they're hour long and I can't remember half hour hour,
but they're basically a dramatized reenactment of a crime, like
beginning to end, and it's like you're watching almost almost
like a soap opera kind of feel, but it's you.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
Know, but it's very really no narration, no, not at all.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
It's just like an episode of something that you would see,
except for there's no yeah detective that comes in that's
like it's me inspector Morse or whatever. It's just all
the people of the time. It's all real. And there's
I think there's six or maybe eight, and I watched
all of those wow too, because it was just like,
oh my god, this really happened. This really happened in

(17:38):
each one, and they're really amazing.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
And you know, usually and like we don't like dramatic
reenactments of crimes, you know, like I feel like we're
all a little sick of that and it's all overdone
and over dramatic. But if this one does it well,
then that's like a huge deal.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
Well, because it's not a reenactment. Reenactment is inaccurate. It's
a it's a dramatized episodic of a true story on it.
So they actually, in their great British way, produce it
really well and there's nothing reenact many about it. Okay,
it's great, it's like it's very compelling, good storytelling.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Okay, let's see what am I I just looked down
on my notes and saw that I wrote down the
Korean translation or our book came out and translation translated
in Korean and the her books. Did you get the
copy alone?

Speaker 2 (18:32):
It's crazy you and has a really fascinating cover you
should post that people can see.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
They're posted on Instagram and the translation for stay sexy
and don't get murdered. And then the tagline is be
a selfish bitch. Realistic fucking advice from your cool sisters.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Can you imagine there's some Korean twenty six year old
girl who's like in the.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
Books, You're like, what selfish bitch? Get over here? Because
I think this should be the name of whatever next
book we write, but I don't know if that would sell.
I don't know if I could see it already.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
Is the name of a book we write? So you
know what your wish's country? Your wish is grand?

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Thank you? Oh have you been watching season four, the
new season of Search Party? No, I'm behind on Search Party.
Oh my fucking season after season this show delivers for
me like it is regularly the best fucking episode of
anything I've seen, and I'm so obsessed with it. The

(19:39):
new season is incredible as always. Hold on one second,
let me let me look this up. Okay, So, of
course John Early is like one of my favorite fucking
actors comedic actors, and him and Meredith Hagner are like
the fucking best comedy duo ever. But then in this

(19:59):
season Cole Escola, he was one of my other him
and generally my favorite comedic actors ever, and he is
as plays a prominent role in it and is it's
just twisted. It reminds me of misery kind of, it's
just like so good. It just like delivers on every front.

(20:22):
From me, I think it's nice.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
I have to catch up because like the when it
first came out, I felt like you saw it everywhere
and maybe just because like we were outside, So I
feel like it's not by me that we're in season
four already.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
They moved to a new network, so I wonder if
like that might be part of it. But it's on
Oh it's on HBO Max Now, Oh cool, so that's cool.
But I mean, please just like binge it and like
I'm so Thence told me he hadn't seen season one,
and I got excited that I got to watch it

(20:56):
again because I've just absolutely fucking love it. Or are
you do you like it?

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Though?

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Are you gonna do it? I'm not a fan of it,
but I slog through it. But you got through that,
my love Aliah Chakra.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, everybody on that show. So oh, I was going
to tell you about last night. Uh. My friend Albertina
shout out recommended this show that's on Hulu, and I
what I recommend right now is that you do not
try to read anything about it, and you do not
try to look into it in any way.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
It's called in and of itself. I heard the same
fucking thing. Don't talry about.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
It, don't read about it, just watch it.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
It's on hulan and in and of itself.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
It's basically it was a play and it was it
was taped and so whatever. So it's a little bit
like going to a live performance, which is amazing. And
this is all I'll say about it. It starts by saying,
please turn.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
Off your phone.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
And I was laying on the couch, of course, staring
at my film while I was waiting for this thing
to start, and I literally was like.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
Great, I will.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
I've got waiting for someone to say that to me
for nine fucking months.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
But also, I don't want to overhype it because I
feel like the neutrality of not being sure and like, yeah,
having people say anything in one way or the other
about it is the best part, and then you could
just go have your own.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
Expect I definitely hyped up search party, but I feel
like it lives up to it where it's like I
get excited.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
The fucking greatest and that's like you can rely on
it and it's amazing, but you don't if you go
watch it, like people have already seen it.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
I love it, So it's like an immersive experience kind of.
I don't know why that. I just really like that phrase.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yes, well, yes, I think ultimately when it happened, it.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Was, oh, my friend made a movie, and you know
when your friends make a thing and you're like, that
guy made a thing, and then you watch it and
you're like, holy shit, that guy was more. I should
talk to him more at parties because they're really talented,
which isn't It's actually a friend that I really like
and I talked to at parties a lot, because you
can you're at a party and you're awkward and you're like, oh,
thank god, Curt Nail's here, I can fucking have a
conversation and like hide with someone. So my friend Kurt

(23:12):
Neil made a movie which is.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Like you, I didn't introduction, Thank you, you make movies.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
I didn't know. And it's called Derek's Dead. It's on
Amazon and it's so charming and sweet, and Kurt stars
in it and like wrote it, he probably directed it,
and I was like, oh, fuck, you're so talented. I don't.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
And Kyle Mazzono's in it, and she is the guest
on do you need to Ride This?

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Shut the fuck up?

Speaker 2 (23:36):
She comes to the door and delivers ashes. She's so funny,
she's so dead pan in it. Yeah, Derek, Derek's Dead.
I highly recommend it. It's like, it's like charming and
fun to watch.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
You know. Where is it playing? Amazon? And like YouTube? Yeah,
it's like it's great. So good job, Kurt. I can't
wait to see you at a fucking party again someday.

Speaker 3 (23:58):
Okay, So can I tell you about this book that I.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
Listened to on fuck Man On.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
It was an audiobook and my friend Alison Fields recommended
it to me and it is called Attached and it's
the authors are Amir Levigne and Rachel S.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
F Heller and it.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Is one of those fucking self help book where you're
listening to it and you're like, holy shit, this is
the thing I needed to hear. And it's basically about
everybody people's different attachment styles. Oh so, either you're an
anxious attack, you're an avoidant attack, anxious attachment, avoidant attachment,

(24:41):
or secure attachment.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Who the fuck are you secure? I mean show off?
That's like, yeah, those are like yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
If you are in any way kind of like having
a hard time with either relationships, dating, where you think
you're at what you're trying to do, it is un
fucking believable and attack me.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
No, no, no, it's called attached. That's a void attached.
I'm obviously the most What are you secure? I'm a
I'm mostly anxious Okay, okay, yeah, attached. But thank you
for even suggesting that. It's a wonderful compliment.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
I mean it's it's it's about a bunch of different things,
and I think it's I was talking to my therapist
about it this morning. She's like, oh, but it's not.
Everybody's not all one thing. You can be one thing
some days in.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
The three categories of people, of course.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, However, it's not about like I know, I'm an introvert, well,
I'm an extrovert or whatever. It's like, we're all we
all contain multitudes. But the theories behind it because essentially,
and I'll briefly tell you this, but they basically say,
if you're an anxious attachment person, then the best kind
of person you can be with obviously is secure definitely,

(25:59):
because hey, they don't they don't write and vince okay, sure,
nice to me, they don't get defensive. You go through
your thing, they hang out and wait for you whatever.
But oftentimes anxious attachment are only attracted to avoidance. Who
are the people who sit there doing everything to get
away from you? And you keep going and after a while,

(26:19):
that's what love feels like to you because it's and
it's a reward.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
When they finally give you a little you're like rewarded
for your hard work.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Which I think so many women are in this cycle
right now where they think this is what love feels like,
this is what excitement, this is whatever. And when you
first kind of start hanging out with a secure person,
it's there's no chemistry because they're just like, yeah, I'm
super into you.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
What's going on? Almost like you think you're bored, but
it's not boredom, it's it's reliability.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
You're learning how to be love and.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Can I because Vince is totally secure, I have anxious attachment.
Really always helped that he was like that. When when
someone doesn't flip when you don't, when someone doesn't fight
with you or flip out with you, or get upset
that you are jealous or these, you think that they
aren't passionate and don't love you as much. The only

(27:16):
way you understand love is by fight, by having these things.
And it's always this and which is totally me and
the guys I did when I was young. And then
you realize, right that, like, yep, it just means they
have their shit together and they love you enough that
they know that that's not who you are. You're you're
just kind of having a constant panic attack that you're

(27:37):
not worthy of the love. That you're like, why are
they just being cool with me all the time? You
know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (27:42):
Did you write this book? He's basically it's like you're
you get triggered.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, and then you're well, when you don't think you're
worthy of love and someone treats you like you are,
you think that they're fucking with you, or they're lying,
or they're stupid or something's wrong with them, or they're tricking.
Yeah did I say tricking?

Speaker 2 (28:01):
Right? Okay, sorry, And then you also get mad because
essentially it's you're fucked up and you have to admit
you're fucked up. And then that's that thing where if
you're with someone else that's fucked up, you can always
be like, look how fucked up they are, instead of
the person that's just hanging out where you're like, I'm
always wrong. It's so frustrating. So anyway, if you are

(28:21):
in that spot attached Georgia, it's such an amazing you're married,
but we're in therapy.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
I mean, we have a great relationship. We're in therapy
because of these reasons, and it is.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
But I mean, but you're also in the the ideal
scenario where because people who are in these different places
can grow out into other places.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
You know what helped because you wouldn't let he wouldn't
let me push him away in the beginning, you know
what I mean, Like he wouldn't let me. He got
he stood up for himself and was like, I'm not
gonna hook up with another girl, and you need to
stop treating me like I'm going to and you're And
then I was like, I'm scared of that because if
you're open about it and you're with someone, it's okay.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
But it's like right, getting to the place where you
know you're safe to actually tell those stories and be
honest about your feelings is really hard.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
That's my that's my recommendation.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
It's that it's that good though, like you're excited because
it's that good and just listen to it. I mean,
you know what you're gonna hear, but the show, it
just feels so nice to hear it.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yeah, that sounds great.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
Oh should we just give a quick shout out to
Kyle Russell who did the lip sync from the last
episode that is still the whole thing is hilarious. I
don't know why lipsincs are so fucking funny, but they are.
But the very end when I say is that a
fire and you go, what like really high? Yeah, the

(29:46):
way he does it is so it's thank you, Kyle.

Speaker 3 (29:49):
That was such a delightful little thing, so good.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
You know, he he nails our facial expressions in a
way that's like that make it's so real, like like
I didn't think about the fact that when I said
what it was off Mike until he like turned his eyes.
It's just like some of these fucking TikTokers, man are brilliant.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
They know they're chillie, they know they're chilliant. The only
thing I'm worried about is he had glasses on for you,
And I wonder if he thinks I'm your voice.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
In your excuse me twenty fucking twenty over here? The
only person this girl does it you need glasses? Can
I just tell you I have don't even for tending.
The only person in my family for generations that of
Jews that have not needed glasses. And I really, yeah,
why you don't know? I probably ate paint chips as
a kid and it just gave me fucking supersonic site

(30:41):
or some shit flicked my cat one too many times
and got like some supersonic you.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
You took that leg poisoning and you fucking made it
work for your eye.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Turns out it's not all bad. The government, get out
of my paint chips, bitch, I want to eat them.
This was an ad for paint chips, the super stelled ad,
But like that's our new Merchip promo. Come murder, They're
coming back is their tagline. They're coming back. Let it
get wed. They were around to take them away.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
Baby asbestos, you never saw it come.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
No more lethal than ever.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's like forbidden merch. That's our new forbidden merch lines. Okay,
fuck you, fuck you the f D A A ka.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
And then they never got out of prison. Karen and Georgia.
We killed all those children with the paint. That's wrong.
Toxic mold. Have you have you read the good news?

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Toxic mold, black mold, get it in your sit in
them all right, little news should be about that stuff.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
Yeah, or were you going to do a speaking of
of something else?

Speaker 1 (32:03):
This chit chat? Okay, we have a podcast network because
we are business women. Turns out, sure someone told us
and we said okay, and then we made an empire.
So well.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Of all the many shows we have, look, there's a
couple great ones. First of all, I said, No Gifts
has the great comedian actress, writer, an America sweetheart, naomiic
Paragan on it. And she is so fucking hilarious. She
was she I retweeted a video that she put out

(32:39):
on Inauguration Day where sheo, it's like Donald Trump bybe
bitch my fence, Bye Bitch, and she does like a
thirty five second song by bitching everyone from the last administration,
which is pretty exciting.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Good.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
So yeah, I said, no guests is going to be
a banger this week.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Hey, you know, you know what other podcasts we have
on our network, Just just a little podcast called the
per Cast Motherfuckers. Steven Ray, Morris and Sarah have Justina
Ireland on the show this week, and she's the author
of the new Star Wars book Test of Courage, which
I think is such a like like obsessive cool thing, right,

(33:23):
people love.

Speaker 6 (33:23):
Star Wars so so much fun. What kind of cat
does she have? She has two cats named Jeff, Jeff
and Jack, and then a dog named Sterling and they
all get along together and.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
I need tips and tricks, so that's perfect for the
tips and tricks.

Speaker 6 (33:39):
Jack and Sterling cuttle up to and it's really sweet.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Okay, I'm there, that's where you want to be.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
We also have had two premieres this week, which is
very exciting. The hilarious comedy podcast Lady to Lady. I'll
just do my own. I'm the guest on Lady the
Lady for their premiere episode on the Exact Right Network.
They've been doing it for I think seven years, a
long time. They've been killing it out there, and we

(34:09):
brought them, we brought them home to Exactly Right.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
We're so excited and we talk.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
About one of my favorite things that I've ever talked
to anybody about, which is the attempted cancelation of Grandpa
Joe from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
What is that?

Speaker 2 (34:27):
Yeah, it's it's a very funny conversation and those guys
are the bag out all.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
It's so funny. Okay. Yeah. The other, uh, what's it
called premiere we have is the podcast Tenfold More Wicked,
which season one was incredible and now season two is
out and host Kate Winkler Dawson is dropping a new
episode every Monday, and season two is called The Body Snatcher,
and it's about Burke and Hare, who we've covered before.

(34:54):
It's such a fascinating story. They're the most famous gray
robbers of all time and they never actually grabbed a rave. Shit,
they actually did it in more in a Fair.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
So you used to do raves since.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
And so it's a really fascinating story. These are really shitty,
uh people, and it's old timey and it's just a
great listen. So check that out tenfold more wicked. And
then if you go to, like exactly right, the network
page on iTunes, all of our podcasts are on there.
There's so many fucking good ones. Anything you're interested in,
like whether it's true crime or comedy or movies or

(35:33):
you know, Law and Order SVU. You're going to find
something that you love there. And cool people.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Yeah, exactly right, ladies, that's right man. Oh And also
when also, we just came out with our own line
of temporary tattoos. While we're talking about the good news,
you want to hear the good news.

Speaker 3 (35:49):
Temporary tattoos are in everybody.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
I feel like Karen and I are going to have
to cover up our lower back tattoos with our own
podcast temporary tattoos.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Probably, how do you make a tram stamp more shameful? Oh,
you put your own podcast temporary tattoo on top of.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
You as a grown up, purposely put yet another thing
on top of the shame that you've been covering and
hiding from boyfriends.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
And not just anything but advertising for your own podcast.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
It's like wearing the band's shirt to the show, but
you're in the band and you're wearing your own, which.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Apparently in the seventies bands used to do all the time.
Like you see a band a band picture from like
nineteen seventy eight, everyone's just like, hey, fucking led Zeppelin,
Like wearing their own.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Shirt sense on my list selling merch level. And I
do think that if I saw a comic wearing their
own shirt while they're doing stand up, I would think
it's pretty funny. That is funny, right, Like Chris Fairbanks
in his own merch would be pretty fucking hilarious.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
I mean, the levels of irony are unmistakably.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Hello is an irony? Or is it you being this?
Or but if you're being that, then maybe on top
of it, it's ironicer, you know what I mean? What
did I take out her all today? No? Just too
all right?

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Is it time to actually do the show? Forty two minutes?

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Excuse me? Yeah, Steven's showtime, showtime, who's for Stephen?

Speaker 6 (37:17):
It's dealer's choice because last week was a throwback where
there wasn't any specific story, So.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
No, no, no, no, no, no, let's do let's pick
like have Steven pick a number and just do it
like that.

Speaker 6 (37:29):
Okay, between one and ten?

Speaker 3 (37:32):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Five? Wait, No, I just did that wrong. Seven.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Sorry, you're no picking a number, Stephen, Why would you
pick that?

Speaker 6 (37:41):
Sorry you're saying I pick a number and then you
guess at it.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Did you just get super excited to pick a number
or just like seven?

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yes, I got excited. Okay, Let's now do it between
ten and one.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Seven. Okay, I have a number and it can't be
seven or have a seven in it.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
Let's say one number at the same time, one, two, three, twelve, eight, Georgia,
I get a pick that Karen goes first, Okay, Okay,
I'll go first. Okay. So my story is a little
bit out of left field, but I've been reading a

(38:26):
lot about psychiatry lately and it's kind of been something
I've been obsessed with, and so I thought, let's just
do the history of lobotomies and see how that goes. Oh, okay,
he did kill. Sure, there were a lot of people killed.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
So it's a horrible, horrible history and stories right absolutely
fits perfect.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
And it's complex. So I got a bunch of information
from this really great PBS documentary called The Lobotomist, a
Wall Street Journal video called The Lobotomy Files, and All
Things Considered story called My Lobotomy hosted by Howard Dully,
which I highly recommend. The Journal of Neurosurgery article by

(39:09):
James P. Caruso and Jason P. Shanan, and a k
n o JI article by Carol Roach, how Stuff Works
article by Shannon Freeman, a BBC article by Hugh Levinson,
an article of the History Collection, NZBI dot Com article
by Thomas A. Van Wikipedia. And then there's a podcast

(39:32):
called Behind the Bastards, which is great. It's hosted by
Robert Evans and this episode there's a two part lobotomy episode,
a lot of history and it's the guest is Daniel
Van Kirk, who's so funny. Do you know Robert Evans, Karen,
He's like a comedian.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
No, But I've heard about Behind the Bastards. A lot
of people like that book. It's psycha and have been
talking about it. It's fun and funny.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
All right. So before there were lobotomies, there was a
Swiss psychiatrist in nineteen eighty eight name Gottlieb Burkhart. He
had never performed surgery before, but he believed that mental
illness is caused by the actual structure of the brain,
and all you have to do is to get in
there and take out the bad parts to get things
in the right order, as if it was like a

(40:17):
car engine and you're just like ripping out the wires
that aren't necessary, even though you don't really understand what
the wires are for. And so he takes six of
his patients with varying degrees of like mania, dementia, and paranoia,
and he cuts out chunks of their cerebral cortex, which
is the thin layer that covers the brain, and not surprisingly,

(40:39):
one patient goes into convulsions and dies. One seems better,
but then takes his own life. Two of them were
exactly the same, which is actually crazy considering an amateur
surgeon had cut their fucking brain, and two simply got
quote quieter. His systematic attempt at human psychosurgery performed in
the eighth eighties through eighteen nineties are experimental surgical forways,

(41:05):
and they're largely condemned by psychiatrists at the time, and
they all basically mock him to the point that he
gives up thankfully on the whole thing, and in the
subsequent decades psychosurgery is attempted only once in a blue moon.
But fast forward to the mid nineteen thirties and Portuguese
neurologist Egos Monas, who has similar beliefs as Burkhart, but

(41:29):
as opposed to removing pieces of the brain, he leans
more towards cutting the frontal lobe neural connections. So the
frontal lobe is basically our control panel for emotions, for
problem solving, memory, language, judgment, and all the sexual desires
and stuff. It's the hardware that controls our personality. So

(41:49):
Mona's thinks that this is where all the problems are.
In fact, and at the time, there are some Yale
physiologists who take out the frontal lobes of chimpanzees and
find that they actually chill out, and they are like
more easily led, and they do what you tell them
to do. So Mona's is into this. He comes up
with the idea that maybe if you take out some

(42:11):
of the white fibers from the frontal lobe on an
actual human, it could have a similar effect. So he
enlists a colleague name al Nita Limo to test out
his new what he calls a leucotomy like on twenty
people who suffer from schizophrenia, anxiety, insomnia, hallucinations, and depression,

(42:31):
with a first surgery being done on a sixty three
year old woman, taking small coorings of the patient's frontal lobes.
So this is like a hardcore surgery where they like
go and like drill into your head. And this woman
definitely seems, you know what, they call more well adjusted
and all in all, fourteen out of the twenty are
reported as being initially cured or improved according to their standards,

(42:55):
So that doesn't it's not you know, kid tested, other approved.
It's just like basic fucking hey, they're better. So Amnas
couldn't do these himself since he had had gout which
left his hands unusable, so he just told Lima what
to do, and later they start cutting holes in the skull. Okay,
here it gets gross trigger warning and inserting a wire

(43:17):
loop into the brain and rotating it around just to
break up the white matter connections. Some people are fine
with this because it becomes actually pretty popular at the time,
enough to win him the Nobel Prize in nineteen forty nine,
but he catches heat for it for the procedure because
other people in the medical community are like, dude, you're

(43:39):
not looking at the long term effects of this, or
he's also not following up with any patients, and he's
barely even keeping track of any of his patient's information,
so you probably shouldn't be doing this. Up until this point,
the procedure is still referred to as a prefrontal licotomy.
So enter Walter Jackson Rieman the Second, who had become

(44:02):
known as the father of what he coined the lobotomy.
Walter Freeman was born November fourteenth, eighteen ninety five, and
he raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. His grandfather, William WILLIAMS. Keen.
I'm gonna guess it's just William Keene, was a well
known surgeon during the Civil War, so he's like respected
and shit. And his father was also a very successful doctor,

(44:25):
although it said that his dad hated being a doctor,
hated his patients, and urged his son not to enter
the medical field because it sucked. So despite this, the
young and super smart for Walter Jackson Freeman the Second Doctor.
Freeman attended Yale University beginning in nineteen twelve and graduated
in nineteen sixteen and he was just twenty one years old,

(44:48):
so he was very bright. He then moved to study
neurology at the University of Pennsylvania Medical School, and while
there he studied the work of the stude named William Spiller,
and he doing ground bake breaking work in the new
field of the neurological sciences and is credited by many
in the world of psychology as being the founder of neurology.

(45:10):
He earned his PhD in neuropithology and in nineteen twenty four,
doctor Freeman relocates to Washington, d c. And starts practicing
as the first neurologist in the city. So this is
like a brand new science. He gets a job at
Saint elizabeths which is then one of the nation's largest
hospitals for the mentally ill, and at twenty eight years old,

(45:33):
he's the hospital's youngest laboratory director in history. Like, what
were we doing at twenty eight years old? It is
not this to his horror though, and like you know,
to his credit, he sees what's going on at Saint
Elizabeth and he's just horrified by it. He finds an
institution that was essentially a dumping ground for the mentally

(45:53):
ill patients here were suffering from a wide range of
mental ailments. I mean we're talking just depression and dementia
and psychosis, all levels of mental illness. And a lot
of them are just families not knowing what else to
do with their family member and dumping them here, or
they're not fitting into society and dumping them here. They're

(46:14):
not following rules. But also the severely mental ill who
you know, needed treatment, but unfortunately, there really wasn't a
ton of treatments at the time, so everyone's just lumped
together and they're housed not treated. There was no serious,
reliable treatment at the time, just experimental medications and procedures

(46:38):
that had very little success rates, you know, and we're
talking electric shock therapy, we're talking freezing cold baths, and
then they would just be restrained or you know, left
naked to so they wouldn't hurt themselves quote unquote and
left in rooms. It was just medieval. I mean, your
mom probably would some of this in the beginning of

(47:01):
her career, right.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah, And that's why she got into it, is because
she had a relative who was schizophrenic and had there
was kind of no help for her and that was Yeah,
it's a really really dark Yeah, it's so hard, definitely.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
So these hospitals, which were all over the country were
basically warehouses used to keep these people out of society's way.
So in a way, doctor Freeman initially, you know, had
his heart in the right place. He saw a problem
and he instead of just wanting to study it for
decades and decades, he wanted to solve it. You know.

(47:38):
He had this like cockiness in that way, and so
seeing these thousands and thousands of people who were suffering,
he wanted them to no longer live such hopeless lives
and in horrible conditions. But it seems like because he
was he was a super cocky person based on all accounts,
and perhaps a bit of a sociopath depending on who

(48:00):
you talk to. He didn't really think things through, like
the means to the end was not was more important
than the end, you know what I mean. And he
was very lenient on the meaning of success as far
as treatments went. So doctor Freeman was also a strange, dude,
colorful character. To me, he looks like a nevishy Anton

(48:23):
Levy from the Church of Satan oh okay, because the
Church of Satan are quite a combination. Yeah, it is
like pointy goateee, dark hair. You know he had he
had a look when. He's known for being a bit
of a show off as well. In the book The Lobotomist, Uh,
the author Jack L. High tells a story about a

(48:46):
dude who comes to doctor Freeman for help when he
gets somehow gets a metal ring stuck around his dick.
Sounds like something sexual was going on, got a dick or.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
He was just bored. You don't care not, I mean,
who knows.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
So doctor Freeman files the ring off, gets the ring off.
The patient for some fucking reason, wants the ring back.
You know, it's a keepsake, and sure, doctor Freeman's like, nope,
you can't have it back. It's now a surgical specimen.
Fucking finders keepers or whatever. So doctor Freeman keeps the ring.
He has a jeweler put it back together. He has

(49:25):
it engraved with his family's crest and wears it on
a gold chain around his neck for quote many years.
What uh huh? So this is now? So picture a
nevishy Anton Levy with a dick ring around his neck,
with his family all of the things. I just said, yeah, yeah,

(49:46):
it's supped up. Yeah. Also, while working at Georgetown and
George Washington University, all the students flocked to his lectures
and classes and stuff because he had these performance based
autom that were described as quote theatrical. He starts wearing
a big hat, he's got the goatee. He carries a cane.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
I'm sorry, do you know what kind of hat? No,
it could be a fucking clown cat.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
I don't know. I mean, I mean I would assume
at the time it's like a you know what I mean,
like a I don't know. I'm sure we'll put a
photo up in him. It's not really cowboy. I don't
think cowboy hats. It's just any hat is inappropriate. And
there's not one I could name that would you gotta

(50:35):
be okay except.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
For that little blue surgeon's cat that just fits right
on that. Yeah, yeah, that's all I'm looking for. But
I don't think that's what would draw the teens or
the students.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
In no being watching it. And then he carries a
cane just because he thinks it looks cool, you know,
like people who wear glasses that don't actually have any
prescription of them, and of course, he continues to showcase
his gold dick ring and he wears gold chains on
the outside of his medical clothing as well. So doctor okay, yeah,
here we go. Doctor Freeman had idolized the dude earlier,

(51:11):
doctor Money's who had become a mentor to him and
who Freeman actually calls what it translates to his dear master.
So he's like obsessed with this dude and like what
he was doing for neuroscience, and he modifies Money's procedure
and renames it the lobotomy. At some point, doctor Freeman
loses his license to perform surgery after a patient dies

(51:34):
on the operating table, so like, you better fucking quit it,
and he's like, I will. I won't do it myself.
I'm going to get a friend to do it for
me instead. So to legally perform his new treatment, he
has to enlist the help of fellow neurosurgeon James Watts
as a research partner. So he's he's basically having this

(51:56):
guy Watts do the procedure while he oversees it and
tells him what to do because he's not allowed to
touch patients, which should be a red like if you
can't touch patients. It should be a pretty big should
be a period on your career. You know, it's pretty.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
It's pretty infragral to.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
A doctor's job.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
So if you're not allowed to, you know, how about
a review board under somebody steps in someone.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
Let's put an addendum to your fucking firing papers. Also,
you cannot be in the room all right. So on
September fourteenth, nineteen thirty six, at George Washington University, Freeman
directed Watts through the very first prefrontal lobotomy in the
United States on a housewife named Alice Hood Hammett of Topeka, Kansas.

(52:41):
She had struggled with depression. She tries to back out
of the procedure. She actually doesn't want to do it
because she doesn't want her head shaved, which is one
of the things they had to do because they were
still getting into the skull, and that's one of her anxieties,
is losing her hair. So she's like adamant that she
doesn't want to happen. So Freeman promises her he'll only
shave a small area. They put her to sleep against

(53:06):
her will and then shave a large portion of her head. Anyway,
so this guy was not like he wanted to help people,
but it seemed like not for the right reasons. It
had nothing to do with them, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
He wanted to help people, but it wasn't based on
what they told him they needed or they didn't get
to have a say it. That's the part that like
the in all of this is that you know how
like crops he starts out and it's in that it's
at that state hospital that got you know, the the
news reporters went in like there's so much of that
kind of like losing your own agency. Yeah, you have

(53:41):
these issues and doctors like the era where it was
kind of like the doctors said it right, So then
you get no, say, it's just very I yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
It's very troubling, it's very upsetting, and it's also what
was I gonna say, Yeah, it's there's no other cure.
There's no cure for depression. There's no treatment. Not cure,
of course, but there's no treatment for depression. Then like
this is it and they probably were like this is
the only way they're going to get back to a
normal life. And unfortunately, yeah, was the decision of the

(54:12):
people who were quote unquote sane to allow these things
to happen to their families.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
It's the same, you know whatever, but they have this agenda.
That's the creepy part, is like they have this agenda
of getting their research right, you know, like validated somehow,
or being a rising up in the rank, whatever it was.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
I mean, yeah, there's no checks and balances.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Soon you should be able to go I don't want
to do this anymore and that should count and you
know that's ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
Or YEAHM depressed, but I could still function in society,
or no, I don't want to get married and have babies,
but that doesn't mean, you know, it's it's like depression
also meant something different during those times than it does today.
Or mania or psychosis you know, was defined as just
someone being defiant to you know, the normal, the norms

(55:00):
of the day. So in under an hour, still using
an older procedure, she is lobotomized, and after she wakes up,
she claims to be quote happy and doesn't even care
that her head was shaved anymore. So it's like that's
a success. She's not worried about her head shaving anymore.
Her head being shaved anymore, which is like a loose

(55:22):
definition on success right, But after about a week she
can't speak very well and acts disoriented and agitated all
the time, And the cocky doctor Freeman still thinks he
did an awesome job and declares her case of success
and starts getting attention in publications like the Saturday Evening Post,
who reports that quote, a world that once seemed the
abode of misery, cruelty, and hate is now radiant with

(55:45):
sunshine and kindness. By November, only two months after performing
their first lobotomy surgery, Freeman and Watts had already worked
over twenty cases, including several follow up operations, and by
nineteen forty two, the dew had performed over two hundred
lobotomy procedures and had published results claiming sixty three percent

(56:07):
of patients had improved, twenty four were reported to be unchanged,
and fourteen percent were worse after surgery. That's a lot
of people. Then, in nineteen forty six, after almost ten
years of performing lobotomies, Freeman begins performing what most people
know today is the classical lobotomy, aka the transorbital lobotomy.

(56:29):
So Freeman heard of a doctor in Italy name Amorro Fimberti,
who operated on the brain through his patient's eye sockets,
so instead of drilling into their head, they were able
to access the brain without you know, drilling into the skull.
So instead of taking coorings from the frontal lobes, which
like you had a drill, it was like a huge

(56:51):
procedure and surgical thing like in patient situation. Freeman's procedure
severed the connection between the frontal lobes and the thalamus.
So Freeman formulates a new procedure called the transorbital lobotomy
aka the ice pick lobotomy, which is all the photos
you see nowadays from back then are basically with the

(57:12):
fucking picks coming out of their eyes. Is that? So
this procedure is done by first making the patient unconscious
via electric via electric shock, which in and of itself
is traumatic, I would assume, and then inserting a metal pick,
which he calls an orbit closs, into the corner of

(57:32):
each eye socket, hammering it through the thin bone there
with a metal mallet. The word crunch comes up a lot,
which is fucking creepy, and then moving it back and forth,
severing the connections to the prefunctional cortex in the frontal
lobes of the brain, scraping the white matter until it's
no longer functional. Then they do the same thing through

(57:55):
the other eye. It sounds horrific. It fucked a lot.
Fourteen percent of people being not taking it well is
really bad. But it's not to say that there aren't
some procedures that aren't actually successful, like when doctor Freeman
performs the very first actual lobotomy in the transorbital ice

(58:16):
pick and mallet style in nineteen forty six on a
housewife name Ellen Ionesco. In nineteen forty six, he had
quote perfected the procedure just weeks before. From the PBS
documentary The Lobotomist. Ellen's daughter said that her mom changed
for the better pros procedure, saying she never mentioned suicide

(58:38):
again and saying her mom was violently suicidal up until
that point and telling NPR after the transorbital lobotomy, there
was nothing. It stopped immediately. It was just peace. I
don't know how to explain it to you. It was
like turning a coin over that quick. And she said
doctor Freeman gave her her mother back before this procedure.

(58:59):
Styted Freeman hasn't been able to perform the procedure on
his own, as it was surgery, so he wasn't a
surgeon and was anita James Watts every time it was performed.
But this new fangled ice pick method turned it into
an outpatient procedure since they weren't actually going into the skull,
and so he could, you know, allegedly get away with

(59:21):
doing it with just the help of a nurse. So
James Watts is like not fucking into this new way.
It doesn't seem ethical or safe to him. He does
not approve of the ice pick method. He calls it
reckless and unsterile. They also fight over Freeman's idea that
all psych He thinks all psychiatrics should be able to
perform this procedure on their patients, like during their exam,

(59:46):
like he in their office whenever they want. The two
eventually part ways after Watts walks in on doctor Freeman
performing a transorbital procedure without his knowledge in his office
one day. He had been doing them when he knew
doctor Watts wasn't going to be in because he knew
he disapproved of it. But when doctor Watts walks in

(01:00:07):
on him doing it, Treeman is just like, so oblivious
to the wrongs that he's doing that he acts what
he asks Watts to take a photo. He's like, oh, hey,
now that you're here, fucking take a quick photo. James
Watts is appalled by this recklessness and so he's like,
fuck this crazy shit, and he gets the hell out
of Freeman's life. But despite this and his horror, by

(01:00:29):
the early nineteen fifties, lobotomies have become all the rage.
Freeman loves performing them, and just as much he loves
the attention is bringing him because it's making him fucking famous.
At this point, he's still showing off. He turns his
doctor's coat into he cuts the sleeves off and turns
it into a muscle t shirt. Essentially, he's just so tacky.

(01:00:50):
And he's now nailing in the ice picks on both
sides of the face at the same time, almost like
a fucking like a party trick, so it takes even quicker.
He doesn't have to do one side then the other,
and he partly wants to freak people out who are watching.
Is one of the reasons he does it. So we
lets an audience come and observe. It becomes like an

(01:01:10):
assembly line to him, and during just a two week
span in nineteen fifty two, he performs two hundred and
twenty eight lobotomies in West Virginia alone, and is performing
them on people for as little a reason as that
they are getting bad headaches, so there's not a ton
of oversight. The procedure takes less than ten minutes, and

(01:01:33):
so he really starts cranking them out. So despite the
eventual bad rap and numerous cases of bad outcomes and
even multiple deaths, surprisingly, in a lot of instances, the
procedure actually seems to be helpful. But sometimes they're just
completely tragic and make people's already difficult lives even worse,

(01:01:54):
like the case of JFK's sister, Rosemary Kennedy. So, throughout
her life, the eldest daughter of the Kennedy clan and
little sister to JFK, Rosemary or Rosie, she had dealt
with what was described as physical and mental development issues
and reportedly we have seizures as well as violent outbursts
against others. So in nineteen forty three, when she's twenty three,

(01:02:17):
her super controlling and demanding and total piece of shit
father Joseph Kennedy enless Freeman and Watts, who were still
a team at the time, and James Watts later describes
it to author Ronald Kessler as quote, we went through
the top of the head. I think Rosemary was awake.
She had a mild tranquilizer. I made a surgical incision

(01:02:40):
in the brain through the skull. It was near the front,
it was on both sides. We put an instrument inside,
and as doctor Watts cut, Doctor Freeman talked to Rosemary
and asked her some things like, you know, recite the
Lord's Prayer, or to sing God bless America, or count backwards,
and then says, quote, we made an estimate on how
far cut based on how she responded. When Rosemary began

(01:03:04):
to become incoherent, they stopped. The procedure is a huge failure,
and Rosemary's diminished to the mind of a two year
old who can't speak or walk and is incoherent. One
of the Kennedy's nurses who watch the procedure is so
disturbed by it that afterwards she quits working in medicine completely.
Oh yeah, the ones happy and vivacious Rosemary Kennedy is

(01:03:27):
immediately placed in psychiatric hospital for several years. She separated
from the family until nineteen sixty nine, Her mom doesn't
visit her for twenty years, her dad never does. And
despite all this, Rosemary lives to be sixty eight years old,
and it's said that her nieces and nephews tried to
give her a normal life when they were older, or

(01:03:48):
you know, take care of her and not make her
stand an institution. What makes us all even worse is
that the actual case of Rosemary's mental issues is most
likely traced back to when she was left in the
birth canal during delivery for two hours, deprived of oxygen
because her mother, Rose Kennedy, was instructed by nurses to
keep her legs closed and not push until the doctor

(01:04:09):
was available, which is so I mean, just tells you
what medicine was like back then. It was barbaric. Her
lobotomy wasn't made public until nineteen eighty seven. Another famous
case is that of Howard Dully, who I mentioned earlier
with the All Things Considered story, which you can find online.
He's a pretty normal twelve year old boy. He gets

(01:04:33):
into some basic trouble, but his mother died of cancer,
his dad remarried, and his stepmother is just a purely
horrible woman. She basically can't control this normal twelve year
old boy who's probably grieving his mother, she says. She
takes him to doctor Freeman and says he won't bathe,

(01:04:54):
he won't go to bed, he turns lights on in
rooms when it's daylight outside, like those are her reasons
for why he's unruly. And despite that he has a
newspaper route and earns money and his training is like,
he is a responsible twelve year old boy. He just
probably is sad and hates his stepmom. However, she labels
him a problem child and disruptive to the family home

(01:05:15):
and insists he needs a lobotomy. She forces him to
meet with doctor Freeman, who says, quote, he is defiant,
He is defiant at times, he has a vicious expression
on his face some of the time, and diagnoses him
as schizophrenic. So a day after meeting him together, they
convince his father to kind of allow the lobotomy to

(01:05:38):
go forward. And so in December nineteen sixty, he performs
the lobotomy on the preteen and how I know And
this is this episode of called My Lobotomy, which you
can look up on iTunes. It's him narrating his story
of as an adult. He's now a bus driver, and

(01:05:58):
he spent his team after the bottomy waking up quote
like a zombie and really not even knowing what was
going to happen to him or what happened to him.
He commits some small crimes, he does some stints in jail.
Sometimes he's homeless, but homeless. But as years pass, he
gets his life together and he comes to an understanding
that the bottom he was not his fault, and that

(01:06:19):
it's his life's path and he needs to deal with it.
He grows up to be a bus driver. He only
tells his wife and a few close friends about the
lobotomy he had, and actually you would never really know
he had had it if you just met him, you know.
So he seemed a little dry, but not in a
way that you'd be like, something's wrong with that guy.
It's just like it seems like just his personality. And

(01:06:40):
so this beautiful story he does on all things considered.
He goes and speaks to his dad and is like,
why did you allow this to happen? The dad, And
it's so it's so heart wrenching and beautiful, and the
Dad's like I got tricked. I didn't know, like really
what was gonna happen. He goes on to write an

(01:07:02):
autobiography and tells his story to MPR. He tells him
that his overbearing stepmother threatened that she would divorce his
father if they didn't get the bottomy done, and she
was actually bummed that it didn't make him into a vegetable.
And so as soon as it was over and he
wasn't like essentially comatose, she kicked him out of the house.
So this woman is horrible. She kicked him out when

(01:07:25):
he was like twelve years old, yeah, post or I
don't know how long after, but like post lobotomy. The
lobotomy didn't quote work, you know, and he is the
youngest person that doctor Freeman ever performed the procedure on.
And it's like the fact that you would just be
the fact that he then was okay with it despite
those reasonings, you know, and not ask this woman what,

(01:07:49):
you know, try to help this child just kind of
shows how far he strayed from initially possibly wanting to help,
you know for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
That's yeah, that's it's this.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
Is so sinister, it's unbelievable. It's fucked up. It is.
In nineteen fifty two, a surgeon and physiologist in the
French Army, Henry Laboret, recognizes the potential use of a
new drug in psychiatry. And this is when doctor Freeman's
fucking reign finally starts to come to an end. When

(01:08:25):
thorazine is introduced to the public to treat a wide
variety of mental disorders that normally would have left to
suffer an institution for life, such as psychosis, schizophrenia, mania,
bipolar disorder, the treatment of mental patients is forever change
and these barbaric methods are phased out. It's the first antipsychotic,

(01:08:47):
it's the first like wonder pill that actually changed people's lives,
and it's on the World Health's Organization list of Essential Medicines.
Its introduction has been labeled as one of the great
advances in the history of psychiatry, and it's instrumental in
the development of pharmac neuropsychopharmacology, and its commercial success stimulated

(01:09:11):
the development of other psychotropic drugs. So my life wouldn't
be as good as it is if this hadn't happened.
So because of this, doctor Freeman's brain business starts to
slow down. Society's exposure to the possible horrors of the
bottomies has also grown as these stories become more and
more prolific, and it takes its toll on doctor Freeman's

(01:09:32):
business and public image. The book The Lobotomist shows a
cocky doctor Freeman posing for a photo during an ice
pick procedure, which he gets every single for every single patient,
including this kid, Howard Dully, the twelve year old. He
goes back and looks at his files and finds a
photo of him with the fucking picks in his eyes,

(01:09:53):
so he gets a photo every single one of them,
and so in one of these procedures, when he gets
the photo taken and is distracted by it, it ends
up killing the patient immediately because of his negligence, So
he finally hangs it up in nineteen sixty seven when
his last patient, Helen Mortensen, dies of a brain hemorrhage

(01:10:14):
three days after her transorbital lobotomy. So he spent the
better part of the rest of his life documenting old
patients and giving speeches, essentially trying to convince the world
that he was doing the right thing, and by the
time of his death of cancer in nineteen seventy two,
Walter Freeman had performed lobotomies on around twenty five hundred

(01:10:35):
patients across twenty three states, and overall, approximately sixty thousand
lobotomies were performed between nineteen thirty six and nineteen fifty
six because other people were doing them too in the US.
Wall Street Journal did some research and found like confidential
government records and spoke to family members of veterans and

(01:10:57):
found that lobotomies were given to hundreds of World War
Two vets who had returned from the war with serious
psychiatric conditions. So, like with Vietnam, you kind of equate
them coming home and having some serious psychological issues. But
World War Two they kind of like covered it up
and were like, you're coming home to your family and
everyone gets a house and everything's peachy keen and fine. Now,

(01:11:18):
so they covered up all these lobotomies, and in fact,
between April nineteen forty seven and September nineteen fifty, VA
doctors the bottomized about fourteen one hundred and sixty four patients.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):
Henry Marsh, a top English neurosurgeon, said of lobotomies in
two thousand and one, quote, if you saw the patient
after the operation, they'd see them all right, they'd walk
and talk and say thank you doctor. The fact that
they were totally ruined as social human beings probably didn't count.
And then neurologist doctor Elliott Valenstine said in his book

(01:11:54):
called Great and Desperate Cures, there were some very unpleasant results,
very tragic results, and some excellent results, and a lot
in between. And then finally, his own son, Franklin Freeman said, quote,
you could never talk about a successful lobotomy. You might
as well talk about a successful automobile accident. And that

(01:12:16):
is a story of doctor Walter Freeman and lobotomies.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Wow. Ugh, I know, I just hate though, Like that
was back in a time where it's the same thing
with priests.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
Where doctors it was just like it's just like.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
For in general, just like big white men who told
everybody how it was going to be, and no one
there was no way to advocate for yourself, there was
no You just did what they said, yeah, and it
was just kind of like their way or the highway.
And if you had somebody that maybe you know, maybe
didn't have like their oath in mind when they treated

(01:12:57):
every single person that just there's just nowhere to go.
You can't get away from that. Absolutely horrible, and it
went on for so long. It's just so awful. Absolutely
great job. Thank you, and I highly recommend reading the book.
It's called Blue Dreams, The Science and Story of the
Drugs That Changed Our Minds. It's by Lauren.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
Slater and it's all about psychiatry and psycho pharmacology and
how it changed the world. It's fascinating. Check it out.
And thanks to my friend Mike Burns. He did a
great job researching this.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
Yeah, I did great, Yeah, for such something so awful, totally. Yeah,
it's fascinating though, I mean, like that's the thing, it's
it's it really happened.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
Yeah, And I've seen.

Speaker 1 (01:13:44):
Those pictures with the ice picks.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
It's just I remember the first time whatever I saw
documentary or whatever, it was just being like no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
No, that doesn't go there. Yes, I'm not doing I can't,
I can't. I mean, I highly recommend such a bum
the documentaries PBS one because there are tons of photographs
and the stories of I mean, it wasn't that long
ago that it was just bar bar barrack and it's
I think it hits home for a lot of people
because it's stuff that we would have would have happened

(01:14:16):
to us or someone we know, you know, at the time.
It's like, we all know someone who has issues that
gets in the way of their lives that they're luckily
able to treat, and it wasn't the case back then.
That's really sad. Yeah, yeah, different times.

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
Yeah, all right, well, hold on, this is.

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
Thanks to people like your mom the last page for
giving a shit.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
I mean, she told me shit. She told me stories
of the worst because she worked at a mental hospital
in San Francisco where in the sixties, like late the
mid to late sixties, where she said, that's when kind
of like the you know, the beginning of the like

(01:15:02):
cultural revolutionary phase, that kind of stuff was starting to happen,
and there were families that would just send their their
rebellious teenagers to mental hospitals.

Speaker 1 (01:15:11):
So she she.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
Was like, so there would be these teenagers that got
caught smoking pot that would get shipped to a mental
hospital and be in the day room with people who
were completely out psychotic. Like She's like, it was it
was terrible, and it was super unfair and really in
insane like that you know, and probably just detrimental to
their well being. Not I mean, you know, hopefully there

(01:15:36):
were people staff members who understood that that but that
that's the best version of housing, the housing issue of
you know, just sending people away to never see them again.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
Totally Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
So this I first became aware of the murder that
I'm doing this week because I had to watch two
listeners talk about it in front of me on Twitter,
which you know, I have to say.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
It didn't feel great.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
Oh. So first Karina sent me a tweet that said,
I'm begging you please cover the smutty nose axe murders
on the aisles of shoals in New Hampshire. I will
send you every page of a book I have about it.
I know you'll never come to New Hampshire, so you
owe me this. And then Emily here comes I know
its she she came in hot. Then here comes Emily going,

(01:16:32):
I've submitted this one like three times, it's so interesting
and it's got it all. And then Karina comes back
and goes, it's our best hometown one. So I sent
that exchange to Jay and said, will you please look
up some information about the smutty nose act, ladies, this.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Better be fucking great or you're just a band.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
Can you imagine if I blame them and I'm about
to tell you the most boring like this is boring
a shit, and then we're doing it because of these
two guts.

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
They hadn't to know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
So when we searched the Gmail, there was also Nicholas
wrote in because it's his hometown and so, but we
also got information from murder by Gaslight dot com favorite
a great website for old murders and historical murders. Such
a good website and store, and the person who runs

(01:17:24):
that website is also an author. I've talked about them
so many times, but so go there if you're looking
for interesting news stories at Old Stories, but also New
England dot com, the lineup dot com and of course
the great Wikipedia dot gov. Those are my sources. And
also so this is the email from Nicholas. He said, So,

(01:17:47):
my hometown was a whole one hundred and forty five
years ago, but it's still good. I grew up in Portsmouth,
New Hampshire. Along with the whole eleven miles of coastline
that the state has right off the coast is an
arch of lage Go.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
I don't know. Ar Capela Pelago, Archepelago, archipelago, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
It's archipelago of nine islands called the Isles of Shoals,
one of which is called Smuttynose Island. At the time
there was this, there was a fishing village that was
home to over six hundred people, but advances in technology
caused many traditional fishermen to abandon the island in favor
of the mainland.

Speaker 3 (01:18:25):
This led to a total of five people, a.

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
Group of Norwegian immigrants to remain living on the island.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
And then he goes in to tell the entire story.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
But Nicholas, I'm just letting you kick this off and
we'll get back to your email maybe a little bit later.

Speaker 1 (01:18:42):
So essentially it's the mark.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
It's the night of March fifth, eighteen seventy three, and
Karen Christiansen has just finished her shift at the Apple
Door Hotel on Apple Door Island, which is thegest the
largest island in this archipelago of nine islands. It's off
the coast of both Maine and New Hampshire. So basically

(01:19:05):
this state line runs through so half of them are
in one state and half or in the other. So
Karen heads to her sister Maren Hanvent's house, which is
on Smutty Nose Island, which is just south of Apple Door,
and there she's welcomed by her sister and her sister
in law Anna Ta Christiansen.

Speaker 1 (01:19:25):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
So Smutty Nose Island is only about a half a
mile long. It's less than half a mile wide. It
got its name from a fisherman who saw the seaweed
around the island and thought it looked like the smutty
nose of a giant sea creature.

Speaker 1 (01:19:39):
It's subject to cold, harsh.

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
Winters and the only people who ever really go there
are fishermen passing through on fishing trips. In fact, no
one lives there year round except for the haunt Ved family.
So Maren's husband John Hanfed and his brother Matthew, along
with Maren and Karen's brother Ivan, all those men are fishermen.
Everybody's brother or husband in the story as a fisherman.

(01:20:02):
They're all away for the night in the mainland port
city of Port Smith, New Hampshire. They're there waiting for
a shipment of bait. It's cold, a cold late winter night,
so to keep warm all three women are sleeping in
the first floor of this two story house. Maren and
Anna Tay are sharing the first floor bedroom, and Karen

(01:20:22):
has set up a makeshift bed for herself in the
kitchen because probably I'm guessing that's where the wood burning
stove is and that's where the snacks are.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):
I want both of those things right now.

Speaker 2 (01:20:34):
Yeah, right, Like just pull up to a nice kind
of fire in the kitchen and they're like, maybe some
crabcake Jarita's variety pack.

Speaker 1 (01:20:43):
Sure, crabcakes, but.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Then in your bed, I mean old fashioned crabcake modern okay.
So around one in the morning, Karen wakes to the
sound of the family dog ring ya who's barking? She
looks up to see the silhouette of a man standing
in the doorway, so she thinks it's her brother in
law John coming home early, so she gets up, but
this startles the man and in a panic, he grabs

(01:21:08):
the closest heavy object he can find, which is a
wooden chair, and he starts to beat her with it.
Since she believes it's John, she cries out John is
killing me, which wakes Maren up. So Maren opens the
bedroom door to find her sister battered and bloodied on
the floor. The man freezes, which gives Maren the chance

(01:21:28):
to grab Karen and drag her limp body into the
bedroom and dead bolted behind her. Dead bolt the door
behind him, so the man starts pounding on the bedroom door. Maren,
knowing it's only a matter of time before he breaks
it down, tells the two other women they need to
escape out the bedroom window and run, so ana Te
goes first, but as she lands outside, she sees the

(01:21:51):
man coming outside too, and she watches as he grabs
the axe. The Hauntvent family keeps next to the house
to break up ice, and as he comes toward her
with the axe, the moonlight brightens his face so she
can see who's coming toward her, and she cries out, wait, now,

(01:22:11):
let's stop here, so I can give you a little
more backstory in this family. All right, that's a cliffinger.
That's a hilarious cliffanger. I just made you go.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
Through it, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
So, originally from Norway, John and Maren Hauntved emigrate to
America in eighteen sixty six, hoping to find better opportunities
for themselves. So they land in Boston, but they have
a hard time adjusting to city life, so in eighteen
sixty eight they move up to the remote Smutty Nose
Island of Maine. So they rent this small red house

(01:22:43):
on the island, and they're the only one that lives
there year round, and they rent the house from the
local family, the Laytons, who also own and operate the
Apple Door Hotel on Apple Door Island, and it's the
only hotel in the entire aisles of Shoals. So John
buys themselves a schooner. He names it the Clara Bella,
and he starts a fishing business. So every day at dawn,

(01:23:05):
he sails out to the fishing grounds, he casts his nets,
takes in the day's catch to Portsmouth, and then he
sells what he caught at the market. And once his
catch is sold, he uses part of his earnings to
buy bait for the next day's outing, and then he
sails back home and he soon becomes very successful.

Speaker 1 (01:23:24):
He's really good at this.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
So while Maren is proud of her husband's hard work
and of the home that they now have, she feels
really isolated on that island, all alone with her dog.
So she generally keeps good spirits and she decorates the house.
She cares for the home. She tends to plants that
she keeps in the windowsill, but her only company is

(01:23:47):
RNYA and she misses her family back in Norway.

Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
Luckily, John cares.

Speaker 2 (01:23:53):
About his wife's feelings and listens when she tells him
because he has a secure attachment style, and he doesn't
get defensive when she tells him the troubles.

Speaker 1 (01:24:05):
Is this a fair tale?

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
So no, this can happen to you if you just
read the book. So he sends word back to Norway
and uses his hard earned money to pay for his brother, Matthew,
and for Marren's sister Karen to come to America too
and live with them on the island. So they arrive
in May of eighteen seventy one. So Maren's thrilled to
have her sister with her, but Karen is actually heartbroken

(01:24:30):
over and the end of a relationship back in Norway.
So Maren determined to help her get over it and
start her life. Anew speaks with the Lightons and gets
Karen a job working as a living maid at the
Apple Door Hotel.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
How Karen got her group back?

Speaker 2 (01:24:47):
It's such an older sister, move to be like, come
keep me company on a deserted island? Are you bun? Okay,
now you're a maid? Like get out over controlling?

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
Shut up? Yeah, clean this attachment, get over attachment style, sister.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
So Matthew starts working for his brother John's fishing business
that's which is growing rapidly. So it turns out John
needs even more help to keep things running smoothly. So
one day at the while at the market in Portsmouth,
he meets another local fisherman named Louis Wagner and offers
him a job.

Speaker 1 (01:25:19):
So.

Speaker 2 (01:25:19):
Lewis Wagner is a twenty eight year old German fisherman
with a thick accent who came to America around eighteen
sixty five.

Speaker 1 (01:25:27):
He's been fishing around the New.

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
England area for a while now, but he isn't making
very much money. He's barely getting by, and most of
the other fishermen aren't really big fans of Lewis. He
seems to be like he likes lurking in corners. He's
always eavesdropping on conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:25:44):
So he's definitely not the killer. That's what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
No, no, no, don't worry about this guy. This guy's
in fact, forget I'm even telling his side. Okay, okay,
no one really also, no one really knows much about him,
but John finds him friendly enough and needs needs the help.
He also can't really afford to pay another full time fisherman,
so he offers Lewis room and board at his house

(01:26:07):
on smody Nose Island. And since then, when Lewis agrees
to those those terms, John doesn't hesitate because there's a
free creep for hire.

Speaker 1 (01:26:17):
So get him into you get the cheapest possible person
you can to do the job. Yeah, and don't worry,
and then don't worth thinking about it again. Just a lurker.
Hit a lurker in that house. Actually let him move
in to your house with your wife and sister in
law too, would be a because you don't know anything
about him and he's a lurker. It'll be fine.

Speaker 2 (01:26:36):
So Lewis spends the summer of spends that summer of
it's every fucking thing. It' says eight it says nineteen
seventy two. Jay Jay, I think I no, no, it
was me. I think I went in and accidentally it's
eighteen seventy two. So Louis spends the summer of eighteen
seventy two working on the Clarabella with John and Matthew,

(01:26:58):
although he often has to take day off because he
has rum rheumatward arthritis. But hey, so you get what
you pay for John, So Maren cooks for everyone herself, John, Matthew,
and Lewis every day. The fourk friends become very close
and Lewis is accepted into the family. So then in

(01:27:19):
October of eighteen seventy two, Maren and Karen's brother Ivan
Christensen moved to Smuttynose Island with his wife Anaatee. They're newlyweds.
They have been married less than a year and they
wanted to come to America, be close to their siblings
and be a part of John's growing fishing business. So

(01:27:40):
with more family coming to town, there's now five people
living in the house on somebody knows Island and it's
getting crowded. Lewis sticks around for the next five weeks,
but it soon becomes clear that John has more help
than he needs and he's kind of left out, so
he takes the hint he finds himself if another job

(01:28:00):
is a deckhand aboard the fishing schooner, the Addison Gilbert.
So by November of that year he's gone and there
seem to be no hard feelings. The haunt Bet family
feels like they help their friend Lewis get back on
his feet and now he's on his way. But soon
after Lewis joins the crew, the Addison Gilbert is wrecked

(01:28:22):
in a terrible accident and he's basically he doesn't have
a job again, so he's forced to go back to
working the Portsmouth wharfs, and it's bitter cold winter, of course,
makes it working even harder. By March of eighteen seventy three,
Lewis is completely broke. He's three weeks behind on his rent,

(01:28:43):
his shoes are worn down, his clothes are in tatters,
and he's totally desperate. So now it's March fifth of
eighteen seventy three and John and Matthew and Ivan arrive
at Portsmith to pick up their bait for the next day.
But when they go to get it, the shipment is
comeing up from Boston on the train and it's delayed.
So John finds another fisherman who he knows is going

(01:29:06):
to be passing. Somebody knows Island on his way home,
and he asks him to stop and let Marin and
Annatay know that the men will have to spend the
night in Portsmith so that they can go pick up
their bait the next morning. The fisherman agrees to do that,
and as the guys are getting ready to settle in
for the night, they bump into Lewis.

Speaker 1 (01:29:25):
So they see that Lewis.

Speaker 2 (01:29:27):
Is down on his luck, and so John offers to
pay him to help them bait the lines on the
Clarabella in the morning. Lewis agrees, but secretly he's got
other plans because he now knows that John, Matthew, and
Ivan will not be home that evening, and he also
knows firsthand how lucrative John's fishing business has become. So

(01:29:52):
around eight o'clock that night, Lewis steals a row boat
from Portsmouth's pickering wharf and he rows the It's somewhere
between six to ten miles out to Smutty Nose Island.

Speaker 1 (01:30:05):
But also, like now, I is a dog owner. The
dog knows him, so isn't going to freak out as
much as a stranger, you know, very true?

Speaker 2 (01:30:14):
Yeah, he just thinks, oh, this guy's coming back. He
might even shake Wagg's tail. Welcome in the Beastos.

Speaker 1 (01:30:21):
Did he always have treats in his pocket?

Speaker 2 (01:30:22):
Well, he always smelled like fish, I'll tell you that.
So it's so that rowing the boat is a five
hour journey across freezing waves and winds. When he arrives
at Smutty Nose, he docks his boat on the south
side of the island and he trudges through the snow

(01:30:44):
up to the haunt Fent's home. He enters quietly, planning
to go find that money that he knows John has
somewhere in that house. He's thinking that the women are
asleep upstairs. So now we're back in from where I
left you at the top. So Anata drops out the
bedroom window. She sees the man from who is inside

(01:31:05):
the house coming around the corner holding the axe, and
when the moonlight shines on his face, she cries out, Louis,
Louis Lewis. But before she can run or get away
from him, he swings the axe high over his head
and brings it right down on Anaty's skull, crushing it
in one blow. Oh my god, Maren is watching this

(01:31:26):
from the bedroom window. And she so she witnesses her
sister in law's murder. She turns back into the bedroom,
trying to figure out a way for her and her
sister Karen to escape. But Karen is beaten so badly
she can't even stand up, so Maren is tending to
her sister. Louis comes back inside the house and he

(01:31:49):
starts swinging the axe at that door, so he's breaking
his way into the room. Maren goes back to the window.
She's trying to pull Karen out the window with her,
and it's no use. She's dead weight and she by
the time he breaks all the way into the room,
she has to leave her sister behind. She grabs the

(01:32:11):
dog and she hops out the window right as Lewis
swings the axe at her. He actually misses her just barely,
and he hits the windowsill instead, right behind her. So
she's running off into the snow with the dog in
her night gown.

Speaker 1 (01:32:27):
And on a secluded fucking island.

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):
On a secluded, fucking windswept island, she can hear Lewis
strangling Karen yep, So she's searching for a good hiding
spot on the island, and she's being careful to hold
the dog closed so he doesn't bark or give her
away in any way. And first she goes into the
chicken coop and she's hiding in there, and then she

(01:32:51):
realizes it's way too obvious it's the first place he's
going to check, and so she runs down to the
docks to try to escape in the robot that he
got there. But the docks closest to their cottage are
on the north side, and Lewis intentionally docked on the
south side so no one would see him, so there's

(01:33:12):
no boat there. So without any options, she runs down
the beach and hides behind a large rock on the
west side of the island, and it's right by the water,
And because she knows that the sound of crashing waves
could mask any noise she might make or any barking
that the dog might do. In just her nightgown and

(01:33:32):
bare feet, Maren sits in the snow until the sun rises,
holding the dog close to keep her warm.

Speaker 1 (01:33:40):
So lucky Maren was right.

Speaker 2 (01:33:43):
Lewis did search the buildings surrounding the house for her,
he couldn't find her anywhere. He goes back to the
Hauntvet's house, where there are two dead women's bodies. He
brews himself some tea, He fixes himself a snack. He
ransacks the place looking for cash. He finds sixteen dollars,

(01:34:04):
which is the amount the equivalent of about three hundred
and sixty dollars today, and then he rows back to
Portsmouth before sunrise go so around eight am. She's unsure
whether or not Lewis is still on the island, but
Maren runs across the breakwater to Mulaga Island, which is
northwest of Smutty Nose, and she's now close to Apple

(01:34:27):
Door Island that she can actually shout to the shores,
and some kids who are outside playing hear her yelling,
and they run inside and get their dad.

Speaker 1 (01:34:35):
Hey boy, boys and girls. Yes, good kids and their dad.
Yorga ingerbretson.

Speaker 2 (01:34:45):
He rows across to Smutty Nose rescues Maren, brings her
back to Apple Door Apple Door Island, and Yorga and
some other men from Apple Door go back over to
Smuttynose Island to search for the sign of the killer.
They don't find anyone there. They come back to Apple
Door and continue their search, thinking maybe he hopped islands

(01:35:06):
and came over to Apple Door, and then they leave
a signal on the shores of Smutty Nose so that
when John, Matthew, and Ivan return from fishing, they know
to come straight back to Apple Door. So a few
hours later the men see the sign. John continues on
sailing the Clara Bella to Smutty Noses Harbor, but when

(01:35:28):
Matthew and Ivan they take the tender, which is what
they call a little boat that crewman use between ships,
they row that to Apple Door Island, find Maren and
she tells them the horrible news of what happened. So
they're fueled with rage and grief and confusion. They rush
back to Smutty Nose Island and they get there almost

(01:35:50):
the same time that John gets there, and all three
of them run to the little Red cottage and find
the horrific scene exactly as Maren had described it happening.
So that evening the coroner comes and Maren and John
go back to Portsmouth with him and report the murders
to the authorities and give them Louis's name, and of

(01:36:13):
course the newspapers run the story immediately. Within hours of
the murders, the story has spread all over the region.
So the morning of the murders, Lewis rows back home.
He eats breakfast like nothing happened. The people who see
him row into the harbor say he looks down like

(01:36:35):
he hasn't slept all night. But after breakfast he packs
a bag and he takes the nine a m Train
to Boston. And when he gets there, he uses some
of the stolen money to get a haircut, He shaves
his beard, and he buys himself a new suit. But
word about the murders has already gotten to Boston, so
he makes the mistake of going back to his old

(01:36:55):
neighborhood in the North End, where everybody recognizes him display
spite his cleaned up disguise. So he's arrested. He's taken
back to Portsmouth. Now an angry mob is waiting there
with torches and pitchforks waiting for him. They want to
kill him, obviously, he's walked through them, thrown in jail,

(01:37:18):
and then he's extradited to a more secure prison in
Alfred Mayne. So Lewis Wagner's trial begins three months later,
on June ninth, eighteen seventy three. There's a ton of
evidence against him. There's his bloody shirt that he hid
in his boarding room. There's the fact that sixteen dollars
was stolen from the Haunt vets and his suit cost

(01:37:40):
fifteen dollars. And there's one of Maren's nightgown buttons that
police find in Lewis's pocket change, so very damning evidence,
but he insists he's innocent, even though his alibi is
really flimsy. He claims that he was baiting lines for
one of the captains, but he can't remember the name

(01:38:01):
of the captain or the boat. He says he was
drinking at a bar in Portsmouth that night, got drunk
and slept outside, but he can't remember the name of
the bar or describe its location, and there's no witnesses
to corroborate his story. Nine days later, on June seventeenth,
eighteen seventy three, after fifty five minutes of deliberation, the

(01:38:21):
jury finds Lewis Wagner guilty of the premeditated murders of
Karen and Anaate Christiansen, and he's sentenced to death by hanging. Okay, so,
even after his guilty verdict and sentencing, Lewis continues to
maintain his innocence, even in the face of the overwhelming evidence.
His continual denial causes some people to consider other possibilities.

Speaker 1 (01:38:46):
Don't do that, let me get okay.

Speaker 2 (01:38:49):
So, one theory is that John Hampvent was actually the
killer since Karen initially cried out John is killing me
when the man first began his attack, and the only
survivor is his own wife, Maren. But there are several
eyewitnesses who attest to John being in Portsmith on the
nine of the murders, and he has no motive to
kill his own family members. Another theory is that Maren

(01:39:14):
is the murder.

Speaker 1 (01:39:14):
I was I was. That crossed my mind that maybe
either people thought that or maybe they were having an
affair or something. But that's just like the one guy
do it alone. We don't need a fucking accomplice, you
know what I mean. Lewis was the name of the killer.
Uh huh, Like Lewis can do it on his own.
He doesn't need nefarious accomplice, right.

Speaker 2 (01:39:36):
No, But this theory is that she's the murder by
herself and the testimony like so, basically because her testimony.

Speaker 1 (01:39:44):
Is the only eyewitness account.

Speaker 2 (01:39:46):
In theory, it would have been easier for her to
commit the murders than a man traveling in from Portsmouth
by robot, because that ride is so terrible and long.

Speaker 1 (01:39:56):
Yeah, but he had opportunity because he knew that husband's
aren't going to be there.

Speaker 2 (01:40:00):
And they also say there's no way she could. Some
people say there's no way she could have survived a
night exposed to.

Speaker 1 (01:40:06):
The elements in just a nightgown.

Speaker 2 (01:40:09):
To them, I say, how dare you discount the power
of ring Ya who was there with her?

Speaker 1 (01:40:14):
That dog saved her life as a dog owner. I'm
a fen I'm highly offended by that.

Speaker 3 (01:40:20):
Get used to saying that because you're gonna say it
all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
This is like become that assholes. Excuse me, excuse me.
I'm a canine lover, and so I'd like you to
take that back.

Speaker 2 (01:40:32):
Okay, So despite all these rumors, the guilty verdict stands.
But on June eighteenth, eighteen seventy three, the day after
his sentencing, Lewis acts on his escape plan, and it's
one he'd been planning since he arrived at the prison
in Maine. He places a stool, along with some other
stuff that he had lying around his cell under the

(01:40:54):
blanket to make it look like he was in bed sleeping.

Speaker 1 (01:40:56):
Classic the classic move right.

Speaker 2 (01:40:59):
And then it's three He used the end of a
wooden toothbrush, picked the lock on his cell and makes
a getaway during the guard's three am break. Now he's
too scared to travel through the woods, which I think
is kind of a hilarious detail.

Speaker 3 (01:41:14):
He's si, is it like some kind of a raccoon.

Speaker 1 (01:41:18):
Would scare the big bed murderer.

Speaker 2 (01:41:21):
So he goes down the road in the middle of
the night. He gets to a farm. The farmer, who
has no idea who he is or what the fact
that he broke out of prisoner or anything, welcomes him
inside and so he actually ends up staying there for
a couple of days. But then a group of vigilantes
finds out that he's there and circle up and he

(01:41:43):
has taken back to.

Speaker 1 (01:41:44):
Prison's vigilantes will fucking get you every time.

Speaker 2 (01:41:47):
They're not having it. So this is from Nicholas's email.
He says a bit about Wagner. He was handsome and
apparently very gregarious, but he was known to all apps
have trouble keeping eye contact during conversation. In those five
Exclamation books, he says, and I refuse to believe that

(01:42:09):
being a fisherman in the late eighteen hundreds didn't come
with a little cranial injury every now and again. But
despite the mob that tried to lynch him, he was
the straight up Charles Manson of his day, where he'd
receive fan mail in prison and would have people trying
to visit him while he awaited trial and literally had
a following of whack jobs who were convinced he was

(01:42:31):
in essent.

Speaker 1 (01:42:32):
Do you know who I'm picturing playing him? Michael Shannon? Yeah,
right from boardwatching Empire and every other time he's.

Speaker 3 (01:42:40):
The villain and every other and every other thing ever played.

Speaker 2 (01:42:43):
And one of the more shocking and bizarre sex scenes
from A Shape of Water The Shape of Water?

Speaker 1 (01:42:51):
Do you remember that troubling his butt?

Speaker 2 (01:42:56):
He's fucking his wife in the strangest way, and it
was really like a It was like a hard cut
to this scene where I.

Speaker 1 (01:43:02):
Was just like, hold up, oh, we are we watching
aggressively awkward sex right now in this like weird fifties
bossy sex. What's happening? Yeah? Anyway, trigger warning.

Speaker 2 (01:43:14):
To this day, there are those who insist Lewis Wagner
was framed and his German descent made him an easy scapegoat.
Speculation also comes up whether it's physically possible to row
the ten miles to and from the islands in the
time span where the murders happened, and then parentheses. Nicholas
says it can, especially for someone is see hardened as Wagner. Nicholas,

(01:43:35):
thank you for your classic New Hampshire storytelling. It really added. Okay,
so on June twenty fifth, now we're out of Nicholas's email.

Speaker 1 (01:43:44):
That's over.

Speaker 2 (01:43:45):
On June twenty fifth, eighteen seventy five, Lewis Wagner is
taken to the state prison at Thomaston, Maine, where he
is hanged alongside another man who's also guilty of murder.
As for Maren and John haunt Vett, they move off
of the island Shoals for good. They find themselves a
new home in Portsmouth, where John keeps up his fishing

(01:44:05):
business until the end of their lives. Ivan is destroyed
by the murder of his wife, Anata, and he decides
to stay in the aisles, but he moves to apple
Doore Island. He takes up work as a carpenter, but
he's of course forever changed by his loss. The once
good spirited Ivan hardly talks to anyone. He avoids eye contact,

(01:44:26):
He keeps his head down and just works. And after
the summer of eighteen seventy three he ends up moving
back to Norway and he loses touch with.

Speaker 1 (01:44:36):
Maren and John completely.

Speaker 2 (01:44:39):
Then three years later, Maren dies of natural causes, and
at the time several newspapers print a completely unsubstantiated rumor
saying that Maren confessed to the murders on her deathbed,
which then those, yeah, those theories that defended Lewis Wagner

(01:45:04):
and is basically one last blow to the only witness
and sole survivor of this terrible.

Speaker 1 (01:45:11):
Axe man who tried to like save her sister out
a window and cutn't and she gets blamed for it.
What a bummer.

Speaker 2 (01:45:18):
So the big rock where Maren hid the night of
the Axe murders is now called Maren's Rock. On that island,
the little red cottage burned down several years after the murders,
and now you can only see the stone foundation on
the island, and that is Corina and Emily and Nicholas's
horrible hometown story the Smutty nos Axe Murders.

Speaker 1 (01:45:40):
Wow, I mean that was that was a good one.
That's horrible, you know, it's a horrible good one. That
was like, it was a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:45:48):
It really, I think they were all right that it
had a lot of really compelling elements and just that
idea of her having to jump out the window when
her her sister and sister in law have been murdered,
and then she's trying to figure out where to hide
in the snow.

Speaker 1 (01:46:06):
And can we say also, she took the dog. She
couldn't save her sister, she saved the dog, which is
like such a heroic I mean, you know, it's like
I don't think that someone who was like killing everyone
was just like, oh and them, I did the dog though.
That's just like the saddest thing that she couldn't save

(01:46:28):
her sister, She couldn't save her sister in law, and
she saved the one thing she could, which was the dog.
It's just like incredible, Yeah, poor thing, yeah, poor thing,
great job. Thank you. Should we do like one hometown each,
I mean one fucking hooray?

Speaker 3 (01:46:45):
Okay, let's do it. Go ahead, you go first.

Speaker 1 (01:46:47):
This is from Maya George on Instagram. My fucking hoorrah
this week is that I was recently admitted to my
top choice law school, the University of Iowa College of Law.
I was the only It was the only school I
applied to, and I was thrilled to hear back less
than two weeks after submitting my application. Smart person impostor

(01:47:07):
syndrome is a condition I know all too well, and
this acceptance went a long way to reminding me that
I am capable and I look forward to advocating for
the environment through the law SSDGM. Awesome congratulations Damaya finder
murderinos at what was it called the University of Iowa
College of Law.

Speaker 2 (01:47:27):
Okay, let's see this one is from mony and as
fucking horay. Side effect of COVID vaccine is serotonin. Hello all.
It is safe to say that being a single night
shift icy U nurse during the pandemic has been a journey.
Quiet cries on drives home, sleeping through the day, and

(01:47:48):
drive through meals paired with a bottle of wine has
been most of my last year. The day I lost
my first patient to COVID, my closet shelf fell down
from the sheer weight of my coping mechanism shopping. It
was too much to handle and I just closed the
door and figured I would deal with it someday. But
I have been unable to deal with this closet of

(01:48:10):
shit for over a year. However, the other day I
got my second COVID vaccine. Oh thank God, and my
anxiety slash depression has lightened enough to deal with this
closet and it is finally fixed. I don't need any
accolades for working through this. I love my job and
it is my purpose in this life, but this pandemic

(01:48:30):
has emotionally destroyed me and many other frontline workers. The
vaccine finally rolling out me finally have the energy to
doing something about my closet and my fellow healthcare workers
feeling actually protected for the first time is a huge
fucking hooray. I'm sure my therapist will unpack this all
this week, and as I've been hiding the closet situation

(01:48:52):
from amen, but I wanted my favorite ladies to know first.
Thanks for all you do, am sweet Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:49:04):
I don't want to get like and I know you
don't want to hear it all the time, but thanks
for all you fucking do.

Speaker 2 (01:49:11):
My God, Yeah, that's a that's a beautifully written message,
and it makes us very happy to the idea that
frontline workers are finally getting relief and getting what they
need is the best.

Speaker 1 (01:49:24):
God, all right. Yeah so minus from d D zero
three two three on Instagram. My fucking hoorah is I
am pregnant with my first child a baby girl. Being
pregnant during a pandemic can be really tough and isolating
at times. I had my twenty week anatomy scan on

(01:49:46):
January twentieth. I also happen to live in the suburbs
of DC, so not like that day wasn't already exciting enough.
The scan showed that baby girl is, for lack of
a better term, absolutely perfect and develop the way she should.
I was overwhelmed with emotions after getting that news, but
then tuning in to the inauguration coverage and knowing that

(01:50:07):
my baby girl will not know in America, where a
woman has never been vice president is just amazing. Wow.
I have so much hope for the future of her
country and know that my baby girl has these incredible
female role models to look up to. And then a
bunch of happy, smiling, crying, amazing emojis yay, congratulations.

Speaker 2 (01:50:32):
Congratulations, that's wait. Their name's d D.

Speaker 1 (01:50:36):
Her name's d d Well. Her Instagram name is d
D D D E zero three two.

Speaker 2 (01:50:42):
Three amazing because this mine is also from A D.
This is from D E s ye and it just
says my fucking hoah. We're finally pouring the slab on
my first project as a builder, female disabled, and they
that I couldn't do it, Well, fuck everyone and do

(01:51:03):
it anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:51:04):
Oh my god, why are these all going to make
me cry? Tonight? So good? Wow, fucking hooray, hell fucking yeah.
Thanks for sending this and thank you so much letting
us share those. I hope you all know that you're
supporting and fucking giving hope to so many other people.
And I know people read the hashtag fucking horay and

(01:51:26):
are just like so supportive of each other. It's so important.
It's a it's a fucking new day. I mean, everything's
still really nice, is and we can all get there together.
I'm so excited. It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:51:39):
There's there's really good news out there and we just
have to remind each.

Speaker 3 (01:51:43):
Other every day it gets better and yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:51:48):
So cool. So thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:51:50):
Thank you guys for being here with us as we
do this and stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Speaker 1 (01:51:58):
Good Bye Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

Speaker 2 (01:52:01):
H