422 - I Wish You Hadn’t Told Me That

This week, Georgia covers serial killer Sean Vincent Gillis and Karen tells the story of Victorian era murderer Kate Webster.

For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:20):
And welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstark.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
That is Karen Kilgarriff, and we're about to podcast at you.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
I've been in the backyard just now trying to make
friends with the crows in my neighborhood. Oh yeah, we
got a big bag of peanuts and I've been We've
been shaking them at them and like throwing them and
leaving them, and I think it's I think it's happening.
I think my dream. I think they know us. Now.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Are you going to train them to go find money
for you and bring it back to a tour in
in your office?

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Bring me shiny things? Yeah, Like that's my dream to
be friends with like crows. So I think it's working.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
You're making it happen.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, what's up with you?

Speaker 1 (00:59):
How am I celebrat reading the Spring Equinomics? I mean
it was such a pretty day today, Like light breeze,
bright skies, m real nice, real real spring is here
kind of vibe.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Outside totalie, definitely springy.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
It feels positive.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, are you ready to like have a new season
of your life self?

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Tan? Are you ready to go to the tanning beds?

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Every day is that what we're doing now. Is that
the new trend?

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, that's our new thing to get deeply tanned by
April thirty. I don't know how will spring be different.
I guess I'll leave my house more.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Ooh that's the key. That's a good challenge. Do you
try to leave your house like once a day to
like run an errand or like.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
I have to walk those dogs?

Speaker 2 (01:44):
Okay, that's good, that's positive. Yeah, that's definitely helped me.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
It is. It can make it kind of fun, like
you're just walking around and like what's up here? What's
going on over here?

Speaker 2 (01:54):
It's helped me that, Like I can't take a nap
because it's like, well it's a half an hour until
cookies walk, so stay awake. My naps are two hours.
By the way. Some people could do a half an
hour nap and they're like fine for the day. They're
like not me. Yeah, so just stay awake for.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Cookie powering through. Yep, dogs obligate us to participate in
this thing called life.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
That's what I got one. Yeah, cats like beg us
not to.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Cats are like I don't care what you do. I
hope you die soon.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
I did. I have been walking mo in on a
leash and a harness outside in our backyard a little bit.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
And what's the result of that. What's happening there?

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Nothing yet? Fleas No, no fleas yet.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Oh just to like, so he can get out there,
but you don't have to risk him getting eaten by
a coyone.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, oh my god, there was like so many coyotes
over the weekend in our neighborhood. There's always coyotes here.
So yeah, just because he wants to go outside. He's
such a bad boy. He needs some energy, like you know, expended.
So we take him outside now, or I take him
outside now.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
You should get him one of those like horse training
octagons where you run him in a circle. That's a
great idea, right, Just keep on building things on your
property from mode to experience nature inside of I.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Mean, what else is there to buy when you don't
have children.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Right, exactly, just fill it up. The coyotes are serious though.
I told you the story of the one that was
walking up to my backsliding glass door. It's just like, sir,
we can't be doing this.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
He's gonna start knocking. You should start trying to be
friends with him. I'll be friends with crows.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
He's gonna be like, oh, hey, I want to know
if you needed your windows cleaned, or it's like, what.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Hey, can I can I crash on your couch?

Speaker 1 (03:37):
Should I? Who's friend? Are you? Get away from my door?
Get out of here.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
I have a TV show.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Let's hear about it.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Oh I want to recommend? Okay, maybe it's the same.
What if it's the same, is it Dara from Detroit? No, okay,
Dara da Ri from Detroit. It's on beet. It is
so perfect for us. This incredible actress, writer, comedian Diara Kilpatrick.
It's her show. The premise is she has a one

(04:08):
night stand and gets ghosted by this dude and then
puts it together that the dude is the kid who
got kidnapped in the nineties, the like five year old
kid who got kidnapped in the nineties, and something's happened
to him and she has to track him down and
I'll find him, Like he's like the most you know,
America's most wanted, like unsolved mysteries kid, right, and she

(04:29):
has to go find him. That's hilarious, but it's also
like it's really dark, it's really funny. It's very much
like Search Party was.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, that's the first thing that made me think of
Yeah that's.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
Scott, those vibes. It's it's so good, Like it's just
really fucking good.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
That sounds like a very cool show. I want to
see that hate she's.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Trying to hunt down a missing child that she hooked
up with, and like it's that sounds gross, that's not
what I meant. But it's really good.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
At one time. Missing child, Yes, we get it. But
also the passion with which people go about being a
citizen salutes for dating.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, like it.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
You don't have to save it up for true crime.
That's just what people are doing these days when they're
trying to figure out what their situationship is, where they
are and why they won't speak to them anymore.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Like just tell me. And she's going through a bad divorce,
so she's a little like not doing well on the
Love Friend Stable.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's ugly, it's ugly, tough. Oh
that sounds amazing.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Gia from Detroit, what about you? What do you have?

Speaker 1 (05:33):
Mine is it's a TV show called Renegade Now and
it's about a woman and she is like I think
she's irish, anyhow, she becomes a highway woman, so it's
like she's a highway robber in like the seventeen hundreds.
It's Orla from Dairy Girls. I Love Orla, so that

(05:55):
actress Louisa Harland is a completely different person, which obviously
we know she's not orlave right, but she is. I know,
it's all we know hers, and all of a sudden
she is this badass woman who's been gone off to
find her own fortune. Her family thinks she's dead, and
she has a run in with some bad guys on

(06:17):
the highway and suddenly has like superpowers, but she doesn't
know why, so no man can kill.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
Her, like real superpowers, like you got.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
To see it, Oh my god, and they have all
these like special effects. When I saw the trailer, I
was like, put on playlist. I was I don't think
I'd ever put anything on a playlist, And I was
like save for the playlist or whatever. It's really great
and girl powery, and then just kind of like, very
well done. What's it's called renegade now?

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Renegade now?

Speaker 1 (06:44):
And if I'm not mistaken, it not the superpower part.
I think they blew that part up. Obviously, that was
the But I think it's based on a true story.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, it sounds like Annie Oakley ish, right, it's based
on the true supernatural story.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, it's based in story of you know, superheroes. You
would think that in the first couple articles about it
it would say.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Based on so yeah, so maybe not probably not maybe
what do they say, like cold from real events?

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, but even then that seems not appropriate here. But anyway,
it's just like it's fun and it's like watching Orla
leave dairy and go off and like become a great actress,
like fulfill her destiny. It's wonderful.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Okay, I love it. Do we have any corrections? Corners? Wait,
you said a town wrong last week? Oh yeah, or
a state or something like that. I don't remember.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
Sorry, that's that's that's I didn't mean to call you out,
but that is your correct That is right.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
That is correction's corner. Now.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
I bet I've never been there, and it seemed right
to me. You know, those capitals when they're just the
initials like that make me a panic me too. Yeah,
I feel like you have the same thing where it's
like all of a sudden, it's like I don't know,
is this South Dakota.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah. Is it Missouri or is it Michigan. I'm married
to a Michigander. I should fucking know and I don't.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, you have a little bit of a bias, like
I think I want it to be Michigan. Yeah, but
what if it's just incorrect.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Like North Dakota and Nebraska, Like, come on, actually those
are offs.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Oh do you want to brag about the news that
Amy Poehler said that this was her favorite podcast?

Speaker 2 (08:33):
That's wild, So tell tell the people.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Well, they had this podcast conference that they have every
year called Podcast Movement, although sometimes I like to call
it podcast Uprising because it sounds a little bit sinister.
You have to not like that. It's like, let's all
the podcasters get together and start some shit. But anyway,
she was a keynote speaker, if I'm not mistaken, and
in her keynote speech, she said that this was her

(08:59):
face podcast, and I didn't know about it until the
next day, and then Aaron Brown told me and showed
me the Instagram post, and I kind of sat there
for a second and then I got like choked up
because it's weird, it's crazy, it's Amy Poehler. We obviously
adore her and have for a long time.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah, she's one of the greats.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, she's one of the greats and has one of
the best gifts there will ever be, which is heard
the Oscars with her sweatshirt on throwing up produces. It's
so funny. That's the first thing I thought of when
I heard that. I was just like her. It was great.
So yeah, thank you, Amy Pohlar. You're our favorite too.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, you're our favorite podcast too.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
In this podcast called life.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Oh my god, Life is one big podcast, really it
really is. Okay, Well, speaking of podcasts, we have a
podcast network even Yeah, it's called exactly right Media. Hey,
here are some updates.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
Well, the first one is that the fourth episode of
Butterfly King is available right now. Host c J and
Beckier back at the Verona Palace in Sofia, Bulgaria, where
a new piece of evidence allows yet another suspect to
slither into the frame. Follow the show wherever you like
to listen so you don't miss an episode.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Such a good show and more exciting true crime podcast news.
Episode one of Tenfold More Wickets eleventh Freaking season is here.
Kate Winth Dawson, the queen of true crime podcasting, heads
to Portsmouth, Rhode Island, to investigate the death of a
puritanical pioneer who mysteriously died in the town that she founded.

(10:37):
You guys have to.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Listen to History Murder. What more do you want?

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Truly?

Speaker 1 (10:41):
On That's Messed Up Karen Lisa cover Missing Pieces, which
is anst viewed episode from season thirteen and twenty eleven.
You can go to That's Messed Up Live dot com
for Lisa's live comedy toward dates. She is performing at
clubs and colleges all around the country and she is
so that's really hilarious. You have to see so fun.

(11:02):
He's a trigger live. If you have not yet, please
go support her live. You will not be sorry you
did it.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
And the newest episode of MFM, animated by Nick Terry,
is now playing on the Exactly Right YouTube channel, so
please subscribe to that. The episode's called Emotional Support Auxen
and comes from MF episode two fifty four from December
of all the way back in twenty twenty, and it's
from a live show too. I love that he's just
like pulling. You never know where he's gonna go, you know.

(11:32):
I love that it's great.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
Also, just so you know, we've restocked the MFM store
with two popular tote bags that sold out over the holidays.
So if you wanted to buy the SSDGM tope bag
or the still Live Skull tope bag, go onto that website,
which is my favorite murder dot com and go shopping.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
I feel like we have such a tote bag audience,
you know what I mean? Yeah, because it's like, oh,
are you going to the library to get books? Are
you going to a farm market to get your weekly produce?

Speaker 1 (12:03):
It's like, we're such toe bag people to bag people,
that's for sure. Are you did your dad subscribe to
PBS at one point in the nineties and now you
have a tote bag to prove it?

Speaker 2 (12:13):
That's right. You have that one New Yorker bag that
everyone including me has, that has like the monster and
the you know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, you're like, oh, that person's smart. Cool.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Does Bloomingdale's make tote bags out of their small, medium
and large bag design? I wonder us they should.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
And then the one that's like the takeout food bag
that says like thank you, thank you, thank you. What
they made it into a toe bag like smenius so good?

Speaker 1 (12:39):
What else could they do?

Speaker 2 (12:40):
My favorite murder tobag? Hey, hey, there we go. That
wasn't planned.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
No, it wasn't because I was actually like, let's think
of five new good toe bags that are that are
like the thank you, thank you, thank you to bag.
What about a toe bag that looks like a shiny
garbage bag with the yellow pull at the.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Top and is scented with like for breeze.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
It has a really strong lemon scent that you're trying
to get away from all the time.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Oh, I hate it to like cover up whatever weird
shit you have in there. You've got to like throw
your banana away from Friday and.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Your gym shoes are in there. Ooh, missus Fabreez is here.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
I always think I'm going to like be a tote
bag like workout person and be really good at it,
and then I find like the socks from three months
ago in the back of my car and the toe
bag that I was like, this is a new toe bag. Yes,
it's gonna make me who I am.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
And in a way it does, because when you find
that toe bag so many months later and you look inside,
there's like little pieces of paper at the bottom, or
like an old calendar or something.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Earplugs. I find a lot of air.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Plugs and you're like, wait, where'd I get these? Oh?
That flight? Oh I took price to this game. Oh this,
and you like piece your life backwards through what's like
old pennies and a piece of gum or.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
The weirdest thing when you find a face mask in
your coat or whatever, oh yeah, from fucking from the
pandemic and you're like, I haven't worn this in a.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
While, deep pandemic, but people are still getting COVID, so
you can slap it right back on, go go ahead.
My cousin just got it, and I was just like,
oh yeah, shut.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
Up, Yeah, okay, I don't want to do that. I
don't want that.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
I know me either.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Oh well, that's right. You know what that means. That
means it's time to start our stories. When Karen yells
oh well, and it kind of panicked, like nervous.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
I mean, we have a platform, but we can't cure
COVID and that is the issue.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
You guys. We tried, you know, we tried.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
Are you first this week?

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yes? Sam, Because as I promised you today, I'm going
to be covering part two of the Butcher's Up the Bayou.
Don't look excited and clap because this guy is a
pure piece of shit.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
I'm sorry to clap because I am not clapping for
the serial killer or for his actions, of course, but
it is so satisfying to get a part two when
you really enjoyed a part one on this show, especially
where there's a lot of dangling part twos that never
come to be on my part as well, we're always
like we should do that later, and then we don't.

(15:33):
And you turned around and did it.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
Those dangling part twos. We can't have those. We can't
have those.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Now that spring is sprung. Let's not do that anymore.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
You know what I miss? And ala Andra, can you
please remind me that I miss? This is when I
used to do episodes of like three three stories of
like handwritten notes that turned into clues or whatever them.
I used to do that when I couldn't find a
full story and I was panicking and it was the
day of our recording in our in my apartment and
I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Absolutely no, those were good where you do it was
like a Medley episode with a theme. Here's some examples
of exactly.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
Okay, those are easy too.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
Okay, let's do that stop on air producing. This is
episode number what five hundred and for twenty two.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Okay, so that means back when we left off in
episode four hundred and twenty that En Rouge police had
just apprehended serial killer Derek Todd Lee. That was in
May of two thousand and three. Right with Lee behind bars,
police are sure that they've finally gotten the monster responsible
for all the murders that took place in the area

(16:39):
between nineteen ninety two and two thousand and three, and
they're kind of like bragging, like, hey, we're heroes. Hey
we found we finally found this guy, you know, applauding ourselves, right. Yeah. However,
DNA and other evidence links Derek Todd Lee to only
seven of the murders they're investigating, and to the police's

(17:00):
surprise and horror, at least another six murders that they
thought he had committed were not a DNA match to him.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Wow, wait, how many murders were there?

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Well, so there was there was like sixty some missing
and murdered women in that time period in Baton Rouge
or in the area. So they were thinking that he
had committed like ten plus murders, but a whole six
of them don't match up to him. Horrifying, terrifying. So then,
just five months later, after he had been apprehended in

(17:32):
October of two thousand and three, a group of ATV
writers are on a ride through a remote wooded area
when they come across the body of a forty five
year old woman. She's a mother of three, her name
is Johnny May Williams, and she's also a sex worker.
And this butcher targeted sex workers in the area for sure.

(17:56):
Her cause of death is determined to have been from
blunt force trauma both of her. This is like, this
is classic psychotic, fucked up idness, like nothing special about him,
except it was all happening at the same time in
this one area, you know what I mean, Like just
a psychopath. He had cut her hands off post mortem,

(18:19):
and this discovery confirms the police's worst fear. There is
another serial killer in Baton Rouge and he's still on
the loose. So let's go all the way back to
nineteen ninety four. On the morning of March twenty first,
nineteen ninety four, police respond to a call at Saint
James's Place, which is a retirement home in Baton Rouge.

(18:41):
They enter the private apartment of eighty one year old
retiree and Brian to find that her throat had been
slashed and she had been stabbed about fifty times, and
just like that, no leads. Case goes cold, like there's
nothing for them to go on awful. Five years later,

(19:01):
on January fourth, nineteen ninety nine, the body of a
twenty nine year old sex worker named Catherine Hall is
found at the end of a dead end street near
construction site, and her body is laid right beneath a
dead end sign, almost like this killer's fucking with the police.
She's left naked, there are ligature marks on her neck

(19:22):
indicating she's been strangled, and she's covered in deliberate lacerations.
So this killer likes to do post mortem cutting. It's
very sick by the lack of blood of the scene.
Police suspect the cuts were made post mortem, perhaps at
a different location, before being dumped at this construction site.

(19:43):
It's a horrifying scene, made even more disturbing by the
sick joke of the body being placed beneath the dead
end sign, but police find hair on the body believed
to have belonged to the killer. But because Catherine was
a sex worker with a criminal background, her murder or
receives little media or police attention. You know. It's like

(20:04):
when Derek Toddley was attacking all these LSU students and
local women who weren't in the sex or occupation, got
so much attention. But these these women are throw away
to the police, so they're not getting as much attention
in the media.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
Also, there's that piece that sometimes is true, not always,
that there's just no one to fight for if a
sex worker is in a situation where they are, you know,
say just like cut off from their family or because
they're on drugs or whatever. Like that idea that these people,
these murderers are praying on the people that have the

(20:41):
least backing, the least like anybody that will fight for them.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Totally, absolutely, I think that's part of it, right, is
like they just want to kill and so they find
the most vulnerable victims they can. You have nobody, no
resources at all. It's terrible. But then a third murder
occurs in the spring of nineteen ninety nine, and it
gets much more buzz because the victim is the wife

(21:08):
of a local attorney. And it's almost like if he
hadn't murdered this woman, I wonder how much longer he
would have gotten under the radar.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
He would have green rivered his way through exactly right,
I mean, that's it's such a yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, so Hardy Schmidt. She's fifty two. It's May of
nineteen ninety nine, and little does she know that a
man has been stalking her for the last three weeks,
driving around and trying to find her during her morning jogs.
And at about five thirty am on the morning of Sunday,
May thirtieth, nineteen ninety nine, he finds her jogging along

(21:43):
Quail Run Drive in Baton Rouge. And it's a safe neighborhood.
She lives in a good community. I think she lives
in the gated community. So this is so fucking awful.
Get ready, A man drives up behind Hardy. He hits
her with his car. It sends her flying into the
ditch alongside the road. We've had these stories before where

(22:05):
someone hits a kid with a fucking bike to incapac Like,
just I don't stop thinking about that. Yeah, he gets
out zip ties her around the neck and forces her
into the car and drives away with her. He takes
her to a park nearby, where he rapes her, and
as soon as he's finished, he uses a zip tie

(22:26):
to strangle her to death. Two days later, on April second,
nineteen ninety nine, a bicyclist riding along a Bayou bike
trail off of Highway sixty one in Saint James Parish
spots Hardy's body. She's been dumped directly thirty five miles
away from where she was last seen. Like the victim
before her, she's left naked, her body's mutilated, and despite

(22:48):
the extra efforts from police, the few leads they have
bring them no closer to finding the culprit. The case
again goes cold, and the community is now living in
fear of another attack. I mean, just imagine thinking you
live in a safe neighborhood and something like that happening.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
Right, And it's already been happening, whether it's his students,
right or whatever. It's almost like there's something out there
that won't be stopped. That's so creepy.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, Like he got caught, but you're not safe, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah, it's still happening.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
The killing spree continues for the next two years, nineteen
ninety nine and two thousand, claiming the lives of another
three women. First is the murder of thirty six year
old Joyce Williams, who was killed on November twelfth, nineteen
ninety nine. It's a really gruesome murder and sticks out
in police minds because the killer had severed Joyce's leg
post mortem, Like, what kind of sick fuck does something

(23:42):
like this. The next murder is a fifty two year
old Lillian Robinson in January of two thousand. Her naked
body is dumped in a local fishing hole and a
fisherman eventually finds her body. And then one month later
in February of two thousand, the third victim in this
string of murders is thirty eight year old old Marilyn Nevills,
killed in late October of two thousand. Her body is

(24:04):
discarded in the Mississippi River and discovered on Halloween Day
in the year two thousand. So, as the murders continue
for the next three years, the people of Baton Rouge
are paralyzed with fear. So these murders are happening that
I just told you about concurrent with Derek Toddley's murder.
This is right before he's caught, So he's finally caught,
and then the murder of the first murder I told

(24:25):
you about, Johnny may Williams happens. So with Derek told
Lee behind bars and several cold cases left unsolved, police
start looking for similarities between the recent murder of Johnny
may Williams that it happened right after Derek todd Ley
was arrested, and murders from the past ten years that
don't connect to him. In their investigation, they noticed that

(24:46):
in addition to her hands being cut off, Johnny also
has a marking on her neck indicating a ligature was
used to strangle her, much like the nineteen nine nine
murder of Catherine Hall. And what's also similar to Catherine
Hall's death is that a hare was found on the
body of Johnny may Williams that didn't belong to her,
so the hair is stored as evidence and hopes that

(25:06):
maybe one day they can lead the hair can lead
to the killer. This is, you know, before DNA was
used to actually like match people.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
They were just like this could hopefully potentially help in
the future.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Like nineteen ninety nine, some of our listeners weren't alive yet.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
I don't want to talk about that right now, Georgia.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
I'm just saying they don't know what Like the fact
that DNA didn't care wasn't a given.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
I know, they live in a world where the Internet,
DNA phones, and cell phones. Cell phones were always from history,
always existed.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
What sounds awful. You guys are at a disadvantage and
we acknowledge that like it sucks.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
But then going on to DNA, I mean phones in
the Internet and phones in theirnet. But they must think
of us in our childhood and go, that's the most
pathetic thing I've ever heard about.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
How boring?

Speaker 1 (25:59):
How how did you do this? How did you write
one paper?

Speaker 2 (26:04):
I went to like Easter whatever, my mom's birthday lunch
with my family yesterday, and my now fourteen year old nephew,
Mikah could not be more of a Salentine who, when
he's not on his phone, looks so miserable, Like still
you're almost like, get on your phone, please, you're bumming
everyone out.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
It's the old junior high slash freshman year of high school.
Oh you wanted me to be a bright, shiny, magical child.
Well a load of good that did me. So watch
this now we're going in reverse.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
He hasn't had figured out how to fake it like
the rest of us do. We all want to be
that Selentine. I want to be on.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
My phone too, But he's the only one that gets
to be like he only has about it a year
or so more of this before it gets real old.
So it's like do it while you.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Can'dily like go to al Coyote and like eat your
food and laugh at the jokes like you don't have to.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
But parents' jokes are so painful. When you're fourteen, everything
it just like there is awful. It's humiliated.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
It is it is.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
And you see somebody your age and then they see
your family and you're like, oh my god, don't tell
anyone you saw.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
The only person with the family and they're so embarrassing
except Auntie Georgia and Uncle Vince or the Choris fucking
people on the world. Okay, So then fast forward, like
that's nineteen ninety nine where they're like maybe this hair
oldly to something. Fast forward to February twenty seven to
two thousand and four, So five years later, the body
of forty three year old Donna Bennett Johnston is found

(27:31):
in a drainage canal by two people just walking their dog.
Yeah you know, and it's just three blocks away from
her own house where she's found. And like Catherine Hall
and Johnny May Williams, she's found nude with post mortem
cuts on her body, and the police realize there's a
good chance that these three murders are connected. So in

(27:52):
March tw thousand and four, Captain Brian White of the
Baton Rouge Police Department leads the task force investigating the
unsolved murders. Like ohware that there's another serial killer out there,
he has his forensics team searched the site where Donna
Bennett Johnson's body was discovered, and like with both Catherine
Hall and Johnny May Williams, DNA is again found at

(28:12):
the scene, believed to belong to the murderer. So then
on March thirteenth, two thousand and four, police analyze the
hares found on all three of the victims' bodies. All
those profiles turn out to be the same, so police
now know they are looking for a lone white male
who's responsible for all three murders. But here. Okay, so forensics,

(28:35):
it's like, it's amazing. It solves everything, right, But the
key break in the case comes from a member of
the forensic team who notices this is such, this is
detective work. A tire track left in a moist part
of the road near where Donna Bennett Johnston's body was found.

(28:56):
He takes a photo impression of the simple time track
and goes to a local car dealership and he compares
the tire treads until he finds a match. Wow, the
tire rand. It's a good year Aqua Tread three. You
know your favorite brand of tires.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Oh, I love a lot of good Years, but the
Aqua Dread three is excellent. From my lifestyle.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
It was sold to about one hundred people in the
Baton Rouge area. This is so crazy, Okay. Investigators do
track down two men, like they start going through the
list of people who had bought it. They find these
two men who owned these tires, and they appear suspicious.
It's a father and son and they live together and
they admit to knowing one of the victims. And I
just don't understand this. Her purse is even found at

(29:41):
their home. It's not them they check her DNA. I
don't understand the story, like it's you can't find details online.
It's like what Well.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
But also it's like if this is a small town
in this part of Baton Rouge or this specific area
or whatever, it's like, that is the truth of coincidence
that sometimes does happen.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Sometimes maybe they found her purse while walking their dog
or whatever, but they also knew her because it's a
small town. Like, I just don't have an explanation why
the purse was there. But it's not them one hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Right, It's like the most suspicious thing that can be
found in their home and it's not them.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Wow, well, thank god for DNA because you know, five
ten years earlier, they would have absolutely been arrested and
prosecuted for.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
This, right well, but again.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
That would have been circumstantial evidence.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yeah, so may not have held up in court. Those
are those moments where we always get frustrated as the
laymen reading these stories over and over where it's like,
how did they not go to jail or whatever?

Speaker 2 (30:43):
But what are the chances?

Speaker 1 (30:46):
But that's just it. It's like the law allows for
those chances and says those chances do exist. In reality. Yeah,
so you can't just have circumstantial evidence.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, okay, but then if you're going to argue that,
like what if they had, you know, violent criminal backgrounds.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
That's why you don't hit people.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
I told you this, I'll stop.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Ok I gotta stop hitting people in public.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
What's my favorite though? Okay, So that lead is ruled out.
So Captain White's task force split up the remaining tire
owners list and painstakingly question each one, hoping to find
their killer. Finally, one of the officers, Detective Todd Morris,
interviews someone who, during questioning, puts himself at this scene

(31:34):
of the crime on the night of the murder. That
man is Sean Vincent Gillis. And obviously I said his
middle name, so he is a serial killer, right. People
ask that all the time, like isn't it crazy that
they have three names, and it's the answer is no,
they use the middle name. So that random Sean Gillis.

(31:55):
Guys from Utah or whatever, aren't like attacked on Facebook
for being a serial killer.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yes, exactly. The one thing that might be able to
delineate you from somebody else's the name Lee, right, you know,
fingers crossed.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
So let me tell you a little about Sean Penson Gillis.
He's a lifelong resident of Baton Rouge. He's born June
twenty fourth, nineteen sixty two. So what is that a Leo.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Cancer June twenty fourth? Is that a Gemini?

Speaker 2 (32:26):
No thank you? It's not okay, it's not one of
those no thank you, we don't want that. Shortly after
he's born, his father bails on the family all the
same shit you hear. He racks up a DUI, numerous
traffic citations, cannabis possession, and a contempt of court charge.
By the nineties, when Shawn is in his late twenties
early thirties, he gets work as a computer programmer, but

(32:47):
his drinking and drug use become too much of a
problem and he loses his job. So he's just kind
of like a loser flake. He looks like a Jeffrey
Dahmer type. He's got the mustache and the glasses and
the nerdy haircut, just kind of you know, it looks
like he looks like Ned Flanders.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Oh wow.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
But also it sounds like if he could get I
could not get a job as a computer program Like
that's not easy. He must have been smart in some ways.
So he had a serious like personality disorder basically.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah, and it's like he had no violent criminal history,
so it is just kind of out of the blue.
And so in nineteen ninety four, he also has a
girlfriend a long time, like girls always do do, he
starts dating a young single mother named Terry, and Terry
works the midnight shift at a local convenience store, which

(33:38):
just happens to be located across the street from Saint
James Place, the retirement home where eighty one year old
and Brian lived before her murder in March nineteen ninety four.
So he was just sitting there staking out the place. Yeah,
so he's brought in for questioning. He's calm and nonchalant.
And in the documentary, Butcher's at the Bayou and they

(34:01):
show some of his interview and I mean, like cool
as a cucumber, like almost like this is a card game.
They're all playing, drinking beers or whatever. It's like not
a big deal to him.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
Lizard person lizard.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, So he admits to knowing Johnny May Williams and
says she's even been inside his house and his car
before police proceed to question Sean for four hours and
he just lets it happen. As time wears on, they're
confident that this is their killer, but they lack a
confession or any hard evidence against him, and so they're

(34:34):
forced to let him go. But they do manage to
get a DNA swab before they release him, and he.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Just he just gives it up. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
So then police covertly surveil Sean at his home because
they're like, we need to keep an eye on this guy.
It's clearly him. Then the DNA results come back and
it's a perfect match for the hares found a three
crime scenes, those of Catherine Hall, Johnny May Williams, and
Donna Bennett Johnson. Thank god, they're keeping an eye on him,
and so as soon as it comes in positive before

(35:04):
the sun comes up. On April twenty ninth, two thousand
and four, a SWAT team forces their way inside Sean's
home and places him under arrest with the first degree
murders of Catherine Hall, Johnny May Williams, and Donna Bennett Johnston.
Police search his house, where he lives with his longtime
girlfriend and her teenage daughter, who gets along great with Sean.

(35:26):
They thought he was a normal dude. They find in
the house knives and hack saw blades suspected to have
been used as murder weapons, several heavy duty zip ties,
and a collection of true crime books detailing other murders.
They even find a belt that belonged to Donna Bennett
Johnston and an earring in the trunk of his car

(35:47):
that belonged to another one of his victims, along with
blood in the trunk's interior and even the kitchen floor
baseboards are confiscated by police as forensic show they are
saturated with blood residue, meaning he had murdered at least
one of his victims in his own home when his
girlfriend and her daughter were out of town.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah, But perhaps the most horrifying things they found were
post mortem photos of his victims stored on his computer
and digital cameras. They had tons of images. He also
looked into Derek Todd Lee's murders, so he was like
he felt competitive against the other serial killer who was

(36:31):
killing in Baton Rouge at the same time as him,
And when Derek Todd Lee got one murderer over him,
he went out and killed so that he could like
he felt like a competition. Oh my god, this guy,
I mean, it's yeah. So as soon as the police
described the evidence against him, Sean Vincent Gillis confesses to
eight murders in total, in vivid, gruesome details like casually.

(36:56):
Captain Brian White said, once that floodgate was open, you
just couldn't stop him quote he wanted to tell you
every detail of everyone, like who is a gay. In total,
there are more than thirty four hours of Gillis speaking
to the police thirty four hours wow. However, because he

(37:16):
asked for an attorney during the interview at one point,
his detailed confessions were inadmissible during trial. So even though
Sean confesses his guilt, even throwing in a guilty plee
in two thousand and seven for the second degree murder
of his victim, Joyce Williams, he still goes to trial
for the three first degree murder charges beginning in July

(37:36):
of two thousand and eight. Despite his open confession to
all eight of his murders, there's only hard evidence enough
to convict him of the three he's initially charged with.
When it comes time for his sentencing, the jury can't
agree on whether or not he deserves the death penalty. Remember,
they couldn't listen to his confessions, his casual confessions, so

(37:57):
they only had this information. They wind up deadlock, and
the judge sentences Sean to three consecutive life sentences. In
July two thousand and eight, Sean is taken to the
Louisiana State Penitentiary, where he remains today. And that is
the story of the other Butcher of the Bayou, Sean
Vincent Gillis. The main sources used in today's story include

(38:19):
again the four part A and E documentary Butcher's the Bayou,
episode three of season two of the investigation Discovery series
The Devil You Know, and an article from Oxygen by
Joe Jemianovich and the other sources are listed in the
show notes.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Oh just I so regret clapping. I so regret clapping.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
I know what you meant. It's like when we're doing
live shows and they clap when we say who we're doing, Like,
you know, it's that thing.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah, it's just like, oh, I want the other shoe
to finally drop. But I want to know the rest
of this story because it was a true cliffhanger. But
this podcast, that's this whole podcast is I wish you
hadn't told me that, right, that that actually should be
the name of this podcast. Wow. Incredible. And to be

(39:09):
not only a policeman in Baton Rouge at this time,
but just to be an average citizen that makes the
huge mistake of taking a walk by the river or
anything like, what a scary, awful thing.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
Goodbye. I would move immediately, not that there's anywhere safe,
because look listen.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
No, I mean it would seem like it's all around
you at that point. Yeah, good lord, Oh well, good job.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
All right, let's take a hard left, not only away
from the bayou in America, but back in time to
a little place I like to go when I'm feeling
blue called Victorian engl.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah. The smells, the smells.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
The smell, Oh my god. I am following some mudlarkers
on TikTok so good. And I think it's a woman
because it looks like a woman's hand that picked it
up the other day was just this close up on
you know how the gravel it's gravel, But then you
look at it and you're like, there's a penny, there's
a ring, there's a way. It's like chalk full of stuff.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
I read a thing that was like, when you look
at the gravel, that nature doesn't have perfect shapes. So
when you're looking at a bed of rocks or whatever,
look for the perfect circle because that doesn't exist in nature.
So like you have to focus your eyes on that,
or oh yeah, then focus your eyes on that, right,
You're kind.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Of like you have to get what you're looking out for. Well,
this lady, in that very way where you can tell
she knows the tricks, reaches out and moves some rocks
and then picks up this little blue ceramic bird, and like,
I don't know why I'm started crying. I was like, wait,
what that was just under there? And it was like
underneath and kind of like hidden.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
Some Victorian child wild's tea set toy.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
A Victorian child's opium pipe that they loved so much
as an eight year old.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
It was their pay for twelve hours of work in
the factory.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Oh the jolly old stays the time. So we're going
back now to Victorian England. So here's a quote from
NPR describing London in this period of time to set
the scene. Quote, London was infamously filthy. It had choking
sooty fogs, the Thames River was thick with human sewage,

(41:35):
and the streets were covered with mud gross. So yeah,
there you go. These days mudlarking is much cleaner event
than I bet it would have been back in the day.
This is also a period during British history where the
public is very concerned about crime. The income gap between
rich and poor is stratospheric, theft and vandalism are up

(41:57):
from previous decades, and the newspapers and townaboids run headline
after headline detailing grizzly, sensational murders taking place across the nation.
But before Jack the Ripper terrorized Whitechapel, there was another
Victorian murderer who stunned, horrified, and transfixed the British public,

(42:17):
so much so that the sculpture of her was put on
display at Madame Tusso's Wax Museum before she was ever
convicted of her crimes. This is the story of murderer
Kate Webster. So the sources used today are from a
nineteen twenty five book called The Trial of Kate Webster,

(42:38):
edited by Elliot O'Donnell. The murder Pedia page for Catherine
Webster shout out to Murder Pdia Star Going Strong after
eight Long Years excellent, and the book Victorian Murders by
Jan Bondison and Jan Bondisen. That name might sound familiar
to you and I because he was heavily sighted in

(43:00):
and the Boy Edward Jones packet The Little Creep that
Snuck into the Palace that was a classic, The Greasy
Little Creep and the rest of the sources are in
our show notes. Come back with me now. The story
begins in eighteen forty nine when Catherine, who will end
up going by Kate Lawler, is born in a small,

(43:21):
remote Irish village. We don't know much about her childhood
except that she comes from a farming family, and although
the Lawlers belong to the lower class, they're described as
quote respectable people, but little Kate's trying to change all that.
She is described as having a very intense appearance.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
That would be the scene for a child.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
I think I'm gonna show you, but it's so funny,
Like I wish there were obviously back then, and especially
for poor people, there was no pictures. Yeah, there's no
there's no nothing that was back when you had to
like pose for fifteen minutes for a picture.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
But let me see.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
This was a little girl who was so creepy looking
that she put people on edge.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Oh honey, that can't go well for the beginning of
your life.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
I don't think it makes you love the world.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
No, go to our instagram if you want to see it.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
Now this I'm just showing your This is the wax
figure that was at Madam Tusso's.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Okay, yeah, there's like a Willem Dafoe aspect to it.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
It's a look into the hypnotic eye.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
There's that they went heavy on the eyeshadow, and there
might be some what's that cheeks sing call that you
get when you get your cheeks hollowed out?

Speaker 1 (44:35):
Oh, the buckle fat removal.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Buckle fat removal.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
She may have gotten that. But also she has the
thing where her irises don't go. There's white on the
bottom of her face and she probably if she gets mad,
there's white on the top of her eyes. Oh, which
get you move away from that area if you ever
experienced that in the real world. Okay, so so imagine
that as a child to would be like three times larger.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Dear, oh dear, she didn't send a chance.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Oh okay, they say she has a quote particularly sinister
face with dark cleaming, with dark gleaming and slightly oblique
eyes hurtful end quote. Or maybe they're just on edge
because Kate indiscriminately pickpockets and steals and is constantly in
trouble with the law.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Who am I as truly?

Speaker 1 (45:24):
But she it feels to me like she has a
very young sociopath or psychopathic vibe about it, where she's
just kind of like, you know what, fuck all, y'all. Yeah,
And she's a big liar, and she lies either to
get what she wants or to get out of things
she doesn't want to be happening, to get away with things.
When she is later asked about her childhood, Kate will

(45:46):
often claim that she married a man named Captain Webster
in her early teens, and that they had four children, who,
along with the Captain, all died by the time she
was fifteen years old. What the fuck now? Given the math,
most historians think this is probably a made up story,
and that Kate simply wanted to get a new last

(46:07):
name to distance herself from her long childhood criminal record,
while at the same time garnering sympathy for being a
bereaved wife and mother, and it's such an implausible story
when you hear it, but then it's like it kind
of is a credit to probably how convincing she was.
That as insane as that story was, it's stuck around

(46:29):
because she probably made a couple people believe it. Elliot O'Donnell,
who edited the nineteen twenty five book Trial of Kate Webster,
has said, quote, she was astonishingly self possessed, had a
wonderful control of our facial expression, and had extraordinary aptitude
for grasping situations and getting out of difficulties. Sociopath got it.

(46:50):
So Maren left me this note note to Karen on
the point about Kate's alleged dead husband and children. It's
not technically impossible to have four kids by the age.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, you know what. I don't think anyone was like
shocked by that, because it was like everyone at fifteen
back then. Yeah you're an old maid at like twenty.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah you're a child bright at twelve, and you're washed
up by the time you're twenty. But there's just no
evidence to support it. So when Kate is fifteen years old,
she's arrested on larceny charges, and sent to prison in Wexford, Ireland.
It's unclear how much time she spends behind bars there,
but when she's released, she goes right back to stealing.

(47:31):
By eighteen sixty seven, she's in her late teens and
she's stolen enough money to buy one way ticket out
of town. Her family are completely worn out by her
and her eyes and her constant arrests and her scandals
so so almost made Georgia spit on her microphone. So

(47:51):
they encourage her to move to Liverpool for a fresh start.
And so she does, Beautiful Liverpool, Just go start again
in one of the most giving and refreshing cities in
all of England. Liverpuele, you love mud right because I've got.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
A place for you.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
And Maren then notes at this time, Ireland is a
part of the UK. Okay, just fyi. So once in Liverpool,
Kate falls in with other street criminals and before long
she is once again in trouble with the law. In
eighteen sixty eight, just before her twentieth birthday, she's got stealing.
This time she's convicted and she's sentenced to four years

(48:30):
in prison. When she gets out from that stint, she
finds herself under constant surveillance from the Liverpool police, so
she decides to ditch Liverpool and head down to London,
where she cycles through her first round of fake names
Kate Webb, Kate Gibbons, etc. Surprisingly, Kate's first few years
in London are actually very quiet. She later claims that

(48:52):
she was doing her best to keep on the straight
and narrow during this period, but she pops back up
on the radar in eighteen seventy three. She's around twenty
four years old, and that's after she moves into a
home in Hammersmith and becomes friendly with a family named
the Porters. They live next door, and Kate tells the
Porters she's a domestic worker who's currently out of a

(49:13):
job for obvious reasons. She doesn't bring up her criminal past.
So Kate then begins a relationship with a man who
lives in Kingston, and after becoming pregnant with this man's child,
she moves in with him. We don't know much about
this man or about the baby, including their names, and
Kate herself only identifies the child's father as Strong or

(49:35):
sometimes as Mitchell, and no one knows if those are
last names or nicknames. Or anything. What if your nickname
was Mitchell or Strong?

Speaker 2 (49:45):
Your nickname is Mitchell Mitchell.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
But this boyfriend is described as a shady character who,
according to Kate, eventually walks out on this family. When
Strong leaves her, Kate says she has no choice but
to start stealing again, saying, quote, I became very impoverished,
forsaken by him, and committed crimes for the purpose of
supporting myself and my child end quote, which of course

(50:08):
very common in Victorian England. Things were bad, as was it.
NPR at the very beginning, said is a rough town
and everyone was just trying to get by.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
The book The Five, about the five confirmed victims of
Jack the Ripper, talks so much. I mean, the workhouses,
you just had no chance.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
If you slipped under that kind of like speeding train
of poverty in England, you were done. And the cycle
of like and very understandable cycle of drinking to like
to get rid of the stress, drinking after an eighteen
hour day in the you know, the steel mill or
wherever the hell it was, just yeah, people got eaten up,

(50:52):
and so it's very I loved that book.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
So The Five is by Haley Rubinhold f y. I yes,
great book, please read it.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
So on March fourth, eighteen seventy five, when Kate's twenty
six years old, she's picked up by the police once again,
and this time she's handed an impressive thirty six larceny
charges and she's sentenced to eighteen months in prison. And then,
in February of eighteen seventy seven, just after she gets
out of prison from that stint, I don't know that

(51:23):
many synonyms for stints. Stint's pretty good, she is arrested
again and sentenced to another twelve months behind bars, all
for theft. And so Kate and Strong are now both
out of the picture. So the couple's young son is
raised by a woman named Sarah Crease, who met the
couple while they were living in Kingston. So Sarah and

(51:44):
Kate aren't friends, but Sarah sees Kate struggling and feels
really sorry for her, and in eighteen seventy eight, when
Kate has served out her latest sentence, Sarah tries to
set her up with a legitimate job. At first, she
invites Kate to come along with her on her own
cleaning gigs because she's, you know, somebody's maid, and then
she asks her employer, a woman named Miss Loader, if

(52:07):
Kate can cover a few shifts for her here and there.
Miss Loader eventually takes a liking to Kate and connects
her with a friend that's looking for a full time
living maid. That woman's name is Julia Martha Thomas. So
clearly Kate's like, I gotta get it together. I have
a kid, I'm in London, like I can't be in
jail all the time. And so it seemed like she

(52:28):
was like, I'm gonna be a lady's maid, like so
many people are.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
So.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Julia Thomas is in her mid fifties. She has outlived
two husbands, and she lives alone in a semi detached
apartment in a large stone villa in Richmond, which is
in southwest London. This is far from the hustle and
bustle of the city center. Julia's home is surrounded by gardens.
It's on a relatively quiet street with just a few

(52:53):
houses and one business nearby. It's the pub next door,
and it's called the Hole in the Wall. So acording
to the people who knew her, Julia has an interesting personality.
You know what that means.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
Fun.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
She's described as quote distinctly eccentric end quote, easily roused
to wrath, and despite being middle class, she reportedly likes
to present herself as being very rich by wearing lots
of jewelry and fine silk dresses.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
If you put them all on at once, you look
really rich, all your jewelry.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
Yeah, and then you act real eccentric.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Real roused to What was it roused to anger?

Speaker 1 (53:30):
What was it roused to wrath?

Speaker 2 (53:32):
I mean she liked the bitch like the fight.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Yeah, Julia is out in these streets with her fine
silk dress. It suspected Julia Thomas hires Kate simply because
it sounds aristocratic to have a maid. Sure, it's not
clear that she actually needs one. Another thing about Julia,
she's reportedly very very rude to the people that she
hires to work in her home. When Kate starts her

(53:55):
made duties in early February of eighteen seventy nine, she
seems to get along with Julia well, so for several days,
Kate doesn't say anything negative about her boss, only that
she's grateful for the opportunity to work. But then somehow
everything goes sour very quickly, and by the end of
her first week, Kate says quote, At first I thought

(54:16):
her a nice old lady, and I hoped I might
be comfortable and happy with her. But I found her
very trying, and she used to do many things to
annoy me during my work. When I finished my work
in my rooms, she would go over it again after
me and point out places where she said I did
not clean, showing evidence of a nasty spirit towards me. So,
according to people who've written about this case, Julia's nitpicky

(54:39):
attitude towards Kate results in Kate being very chilly, if
not outwardly hostile toward her boss. In fact, it's said
that by the end of Kate's first week on the job,
Julia is afraid of her maid, and because of this,
she fires her okay, which is you know, fair's fair.
It's like you're kind of acting like an asshole, and

(55:02):
then the person that you hired doesn't like that, and
then you're like, oh no, I don't like this, so
then you're like, Okay, this whole thing isn't working out.
It's cow it is sometimes, but Julia doesn't want any trouble,
so she tells Kate that she can keep living in
her house and continue working for her until the end
of the month, and makes Kate's official last day Friday,

(55:22):
February twenty eighth. She doesn't feel great about this arrangement
that she has concocted. She's already super uncomfortable living with Kate.
According to Eliot O'Donnell quote, Miss Thomas tried her hardest
to get someone to stay with her. She asked several
members of the church she attended, and on their refusing,
eventually succeeded in getting a lady and her daughter to

(55:44):
lodge with her for a fortnight.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
What do you think happened in those couple days, Like
something someone snapped, like intense fighting.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
Probably Julia, the lady of the house, thought she could
kind of do what she wanted, and she came up
with Kate, who's like, no, no, no, I do what I want,
and they butted heads, and they seriously butted heads. Yeah,
And maybe like Kate at that point was so kind
of street worn that she went street real fast, and

(56:18):
Julia was like, I thought it was.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Yeah, she's used to people like cowtowing to her.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Probably Julia, probably because if you think about that, like
British politeness thing where like you don't raise your voice,
and it's like it's super crazy to raise.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Your voice, especially that's someone rich and you know, aristocratic and.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
Pretending to be rich.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Yeah. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
I think it's very interesting though. I'm reading a lot
into Julia not being able to get anybody to come
and stay at her house.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
Yeah, they're like Julia, no, yeah, They're like, you are
the most high maintenance and you now I go there
and you're gonna yell at me like you yell at
the main.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
Yeah, or like you always panic about some thing.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Yeah. So eventually, Friday the twenty eighth rolls around, and
as planned, the mother and daughter leave like they said,
you got me for two weeks. That's it. A fortnight,
but not Kate. Kate asks if she can keep boarding
there through the weekend, complaining that it's too hard to
find short term lodging on a Friday or a Saturday.
She says she'll have a much better shot at leasing

(57:22):
a new place at the start of the next week,
when there's less demand, more vacancies. It's unclear if Julia
feels sorry for Kate or if she's just afraid of her.
Either way, she agrees to let Kate stay through the weekend.
Not good. So finally it's Sunday, Kate's last day working
and in the house. Even though the two women don't

(57:44):
like each other, they both know they don't like each other.
Kate's just carrying out her normal duties that day. Everything
seems to be fine, except as part of their work agreement,
Julia always gives Kate Sunday afternoon off on the condition
that Kate has to return in the early afternoon so
she can help Julia get dressed for evening church services.

(58:07):
But not today, as you would imagine, as I would
also do, I'm not coming back to fucking help you
in my last day of work.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
I'm a done. You can't fire me more.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
You can't fire me. I quit. So Kate is next
door at the Hole in the Wall.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Drinking at that pup to find m HM.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
She getting drunk chatting up the other patrons. She is
not concerned about the time. When she finally does decide
she's ready to go, she stumbles back over to Julia's house.
Julia has not left for church yet, and Julia is furious.
She wastes no time reprimanding Kate for keeping her waiting.

(58:47):
But at this point, as we well know, Kate's not
having it because she's drunk. According to Julia herself, who
would later confide in her fellow church members, quote, Kate
flew into a terrible passion. Kate becomes absolutely enraged and
hurls every insult and curse word in the book at Julia.

(59:07):
This absolutely freaks Julia out, so she gets dressed by
herself and then just runs out of the house and
runs to church. Surprisingly, after the service, Julia heads straight home,
and as far as we know, she doesn't make any
attempt to have somebody come back to the house with her.
So all those church people who were talking about it afterwards,

(59:30):
like she didn't go around and go will you please
come back with me and help me get this crazy
maid out of my house? I wonder why, Well, it
says on this piece of paper, maybe Julia thought that
Kate would have calmed down by then, right, or even better,
that she would have just taken her shit and gotten
out right, that was the end of it. Yeah, she
could have been in a full fantasy of like that's
over and we're done. But when Julia does arrive home,

(59:54):
she finds neither seemed to be the case. And here's
what happened next, according to Kate herself quote, upon her
return from church before the usual hour, Missus Thomas came
in and went upstairs. I went up after her, and
we had an argument which ripened into a quarrel, which
I didn't realize quarrel was one above argument. Apparrently it

(01:00:15):
is yeah, which ripened into a quarrel. And in the
height of my anger and rage, I threw her from
the top of the stairs to the ground floor. She
had a very heavy fall. I felt that she was
seriously injured, and I became agitated at what had occurred,
lost all control of myself, and to prevent her screaming
and getting me into trouble, I caught her by the throat,

(01:00:36):
and in the struggle she was choked and I threw
her on the floor.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
She was choked.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
No, no, you choked her to death. Julia Morgan is dead.
Kate Webster killed her. Wow. So Kate, of course immediately
starts covering her tracks in my least favorite way. These
true crime stories always have. If you do not like
grizzly things, you're gonna want to dip for about a

(01:01:03):
minute and a half.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Well, you shouldn't have listened to my story either.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
Yeah, exactly. If you're still upset from George's story, it
gets worse.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
Is there a post trigger warning? Is that a thing?

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Yeah? And there those help it all. Kate proceeds to
dismember Julia's body, boil her limbs and torso on the
kitchen stove whoa, and burn her organs in the oven.
She would later say her goal was to shrink the
remains so they'd be easier to get rid of. She
cleans up all the blood around the home from dismembering

(01:01:34):
her boss in her own home, and then she puts
Julia's remains into a big wooden box and everything fit
except for one of Julia's feet and her head, so
she keeps those outside this box. Oh my god, it's
a big wooden box that's incredibly heavy, and Kate realizes
that she's going to have to move it, but she

(01:01:55):
needs more time to figure out how she's going to
do that, so she just closes it up and like
kind of like she doesn't put it aside because it's
really heavy, but just like that's going to go there
for a while. She has snapped, yeah, in a big way.
And then she takes Julia's foot, her severed foot, to
a nearby garbage dump, and tosses it onto the garbage heap,

(01:02:17):
which is so Victorian England, or at least the way.
I shouldn't say that because it'll be a thousand historians
being like, actually, no, it wasn't. But I picture that.
You walk down the street and there's like there's old
kind of falling down houses and antique stores and stuff,
and then just to the left there would just be
a big, like three story pile of garbage. Yeah, heaps

(01:02:37):
of garbage after heaps of garbage here and there. Yeah,
they hadn't learned yet to put it outside the city limits.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Right into the Thames.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Yeah, where we can now dig it up, where we
can mudlark the fuck out of it now exactly. Then
she puts Julia's head into a large handbag. I think
I was talking about all the other stuff, because it
just gets worse. Of course, she puts Julia's head in
to a large handbag, a bag that witnesses will later
report seeing Kate leave Julia's home with. It's gruesome, it's horrible,

(01:03:09):
and it is you know, it's a part of all
of these stories that we get to and then we
go why did we why did we start out on
this journey in the first place? But I think we
do it for this reason to talk about what is
this escalation that Kate just experienced between lifelong larceny of
just like I just want what I want when I
want it, Yeah, to the serious, gruesome murder and dissection

(01:03:33):
of her boss. Like that's so so extreme.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Like to have that in you, It's like, how have
you had that in you your whole life? And it
comes out now? And it's scary to think like that
there are people out there who do have that capability
in them?

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
And is it all of us that? Because is that
also a human capability? If some of the humans can
do it, do all the humans have the capability?

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
And I think that's what's so fascinating. One of the
things fast about true is like, is that in all
of us? Or is that nature, nurture or circumstance or what.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
I just don't think when they get to the problem
solving point, which to me is the point of no
return where they're like, I'm going to cut up a
body that I can't ever go there. Do you remember
the movie Shallow Grave. No, it was like a huge
nineties movie. It was so good and it's they have

(01:04:28):
to kill a roommate and then they cut the body
up and I'm like in the movie, I was just like, no, no.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Well can we go even further back? And that her
solution for having shoved this person down the stairs and
not wanting to get in trouble for that is to
then kill them. Like that's where I'm like, no, no, no, no, Like,
that's not that's not how you don't get in trouble
for hurting someone.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Well, and also doesn't it sound like part of a
lie where it was like the truth is she snapped
and went berserk? Yeah, and then in retrospect she was like, well,
it's her fault that I did that, because she was
gonna tell on me by screaming because I was killing her.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
I had to like, what are you yeah talking about?

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
She made me? She made me? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Was any of that worth the trouble? I'm not sure
we solved it. We solved human experiences. We know why
women listen to true crime. Now, this is incredible. So
two days after Kate Webster kills Julia Thomas. Kate decides
to pay a visit to her old neighbors in Hammersmith,
the Porters. She hasn't seen them in several years, and

(01:05:37):
she hasn't stayed in touch. So the Porters, who last
knew Kate as a down on her luck domestic worker,
are shocked to see her at their door in a
nice silk dress wearing lots of jewelry.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
I bet.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Kate wastes no time telling Henry Porter, the patriarch of
the family, that her name is now Kate Thomas, claiming
that she's been married and widowed since she's seen them
since she's lived in Hammersmith. She also claims to have
recently inherited a house in Richmond from an aunt who
just passed away, and it's through this inheritance that Kate
says she ended up with a bunch of furnitures that

(01:06:12):
she has no need for, so she asks Henry if
he might know anyone who'd be interested in buying it. So,
according to Elliot O'Donnell, Kate's scheme is obvious here. She
wants to make cash by selling Julia's belongings to people
who don't live in Richmond and have no way of
connecting them back to Julia, because at this point Julia

(01:06:35):
is just dead and missing, but she hasn't been reported
missing by anybody, and I guess luckily for Kate, Henry
Porter agrees to set her up with someone who might
be interested in buying those things, and then Kate asks
the Porters for one more favor. She needs help dropping
off a box in Richmond. She claims it's a gift

(01:06:55):
for a friend, but it's way too.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Heavy for her to carry herself.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
So Henry's son, Robert Porter, kindly offers to help her.
After returning to Richmond with Kate and picking up this
very heavy box, Robert carries it all the way to
a bench in the middle of Richmond Bridge, where Kate
says she will be meeting her friend. And at this
point it's well into the evening it's very dark outside,
but instead of asking Robert to sit with her while

(01:07:22):
she waits, Kate asks for some privacy and tells Robert
to walk to the end of the bridge and when
she's done with her meeting, she'll come find him. Before
Robert can even make it to the end of the bridge,
he hears a big splash in the water, turns around,
looks back toward the middle of the bridge, and even
though it's dark, he can see Kate leaning against the

(01:07:43):
bridge and the box is now gone. He's pretty sure
that Kate just threw the box into the river. Yeah.
A little time passes, Kate meets back up with Robert
at the end of the bridge. She no longer has
the box. She tells him that her friend stop by
to pick it. Upert decides he's not going to confront
Kate about this. He just decides he's going to commit

(01:08:06):
the whole thing to memory and talk about it to
someone else. So, meanwhile, Kate is living out of Julia's apartment,
wearing Julia's clothing and her jewelry, and basically trying to
sell anything that she doesn't want to keep for herself.
Get ready if you're a squeamish. This includes the gold
bridge work from Julia's teeth, which Kate has pulled from

(01:08:29):
her decapitated skull. What so we're talking about just someone
who does not care. Yeah, like a huge sociopath.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Yeah, a disconnects from like, oh yes, reality and like
human emotions.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
And kind of just like all business. It's very like
I need to get mine.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
Yeah, here it is, and here it is.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
So the morning after the suspicious bridge activity, Kate's heavy
wooden box is boded under the Richmond Bridge. An unsuspecting
man opens it up and finds dismembered body parts inside
and immediately alerts officers at the nearby Barnes police station.
So these officers look through the box and they basically

(01:09:17):
they can tell that the victim is a female. They
think that all of these body parts belong to one person,
but because there is no head, they have no idea
who it is, and they don't know how to identify
the person. So it soon becomes the talk of the town,
and newspapers are of course flooded with information about the
so called Barnes mystery. So back in Hammersmith, Robert Porter

(01:09:41):
sees all this newspaper coverage and gets a very bad feeling.
So he goes and tells his father about that night
with Kate on the bridge and how he felt certain
that she had lied about meeting a friend to hand
off this gift, and instead he thinks that she's the
one that dumped that big box filled with body parts
that the police and the newspapers are now describing. Before

(01:10:03):
Henry Porter heard any of this from his son. He
had connected Kate with a furniture broker named John Church,
and John ultimately agreed to buy multiple pieces of furniture
and clothing from Kate. But once he brought the items home,
he begins to look through them and he becomes very unsettled.
He finds a diary belonging to someone named Julia Martha Thomas,

(01:10:26):
as well as a male that's addressed to Julia Thomas,
and he suspects that he's been sold stolen goods. So
he calls up Henry to tell him that, and that's
perfect timing because Henry tells John about the Barnes mystery
that they saw in the paper and his son's unnerving story,
So all three men decide it's time to go to
the police. So up until this point, Julia's neighbors have

(01:10:49):
been watching as all of her belongings have been carried
out of her apartment and they have been growing concerned.
It's reported that one of them even approaches Kate directly
and asks her what's going on. But it's not until
the police finally visit Julia's home that the terrifying reality
hits upon entering, they discover charred bones, an acts, and

(01:11:10):
a razor believed to have been used to dismember Julia's body.
So now police are looking for Kate Webster, but suddenly
she's nowhere to be found. On March twenty third, several
weeks after the murder, Kate's description is finally printed in
all the newspapers in connection with the Barnes mystery, so
of course it becomes like it's all the headlines. Kate

(01:11:33):
realizes now for sure that the police are looking for her,
but she has a plan, so she takes the money
that she's been making from selling the furniture and the clothing,
and she picks up her young son and high tails
it to Ireland. But she is tracked down by British
police because investigators assumed that she'd be trying to head

(01:11:54):
back home. Plus, with Kate taking her sum with her,
she's instantly identifiable. So on March thirtieth, Kate Webster is
arrested and charged with Julia Thomas's murder. So, of course
this trial is a media sensation, and the line between
fact and fiction becomes incredibly fuzzy. One particularly creepy and

(01:12:14):
very persistent rumor is that Kate tried to sell off
rendered fat from Julia's body. There's even a quote attributed
to the owner of the Hole in the Wall saying, quote,
a day or two after the murder, Kate went around
amongst the neighbors offering for sale two jars of fat,
which she declared to be the best trip end.

Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
Quote.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Oh my god. This story almost certainly isn't true, but
basically it added to Kate being branded as the female
Sweeney Todd.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
Yeah, I think it's true. I'm on the jury, and
I think it's true.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
I wouldn't doubt it, only because if she's pulling gold
plates out of a decapitated head, why is that going
any further. She's done all these horrible things to the
body totally, Why wouldn't she She's.

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
Not like a mastermind because she left letters inside of
the furniture she's selling. She's not like, no, she's just
doing her thing.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
Yeah, she's just doing it. Okay. So, alongside the NonStop
and over the top newspaper headlines, publishers are also churning
out so called souvenir booklets recounting Kate's life, crimes and
eventual execution. Soon Street ballads and street poems are written
documenting this case. But the cherry on top of the

(01:13:33):
sensational coverage comes when Madam Tussau immediately gets to work
creating a wax version of Kate, and on Easter Sunday
eighteen seventy nine, it's put on display at Baker Street
and people flock to see the murderous's wax likeness up close.

Speaker 2 (01:13:50):
Creepy.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
So that's the picture we're going to put on Instagram
for you guys of this creepy picture. I showed Georgia
at the beginning. It really is. I mean, they would
have to make it or they would just be making
a wax figure of a lady.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
But meanwhile, over at the Old Bailey, Kate's trial is
the hottest ticket in town. In fact, the future King
of Sweden makes the long track to London to watch
the proceedings. Murderina right, A lot of fuss is made
about what Kate looks like, but that also has to
do with her Irish heritage coming into play and the
racism about Irish people at the time. As Jan Bondisen

(01:14:27):
writes in the book Victorian Murders Quote, she's described as
not merely savage, savage and shocking, but the grimmest of
grim personalities, a character so uniquely sinister and barbaric as
to be hardly human. So that's basically that's Jan quoting
the papers at the time, and then he says her

(01:14:47):
appearance and behavior were seen as key signs of her
inherently criminal nature. Her callous lying in court caused revulsion.
The anti Irish sentiments of the time were also fueled
by her crime. The denigration of Kate Webster was part
of the public perception of the Irish as innately criminal.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
Damn.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
Yeah, the Irish weren't liked at the time. So even
though the verdict is all but decided in the court
of public opinion, the actual criminal case against Kate Webster
is very weak. As Kate's trial drags on, police still
haven't found a head that matches the dismembered remains that
they have.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
Well, they have other heads, but they can't match it up.
Like that's troubling.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
Probably what the prosecution does have, though, is a lot
of circumstantial evidence against Kate, But Kate is claiming she's innocent,
which is the most psychopathic thing to do, right, I
didn't do any of this. I'll describe to you in
detail how I did it. I didn't do it right.
So on July eighth, just six days after the trial began,

(01:15:51):
the jury hands down their verdict. Kate Webster is guilty.
When asked if she had anything to say before the court,
Kate once again denied was killing Julia, and then she
drops a bombshell out of the blue. She now claims
to be pregnant. At first, this sends shockwaves to the
British public. It's yet again another sharp turn in a
rapidly unfolding real life mystery, but Kate's pregnancy claims are

(01:16:15):
soon dismissed as yet another one of her lies. A
few weeks later, on the night before her scheduled execution,
Kate finally confesses her guilt to a lawyer and to
her presiding priest, and the next morning, July twenty ninth,
eighteen seventy nine, Kate Webster is hanged to death in
a shed not in view of the public on the
property of Wansworth Prison, and her last words are quote,

(01:16:39):
Lord have mercy upon me end quote Wow. She was
thirty years old, Bertie. It is not clear whatever happened
to her son. I think her son like at that
point was probably hopefully Sarah crist took him under her wing.
But now we're going to fast forward. Here's a little
addundum to this story, okay that I think you're going
to enjoy. We're going to and to fast forward one hundred

(01:17:01):
and twenty eight years to two thousand and seven, and
this is when British National treasure and Naturalist Sir David
Attenborough just so happens to own the property adjacent to
Julia Thomas's old apartment. After all these years, the Hole
in the Wall Pub is still standing next door, but
it has fallen on hard times and by two thousand

(01:17:23):
and nine the pub is shuttered. So David Attenborough buys
the property with the hopes of converting it into an
outdoor space complete with a greenhouse and an orchard. By
twenty ten, Attenborough hires contractors to carry out the remodeling plan,
and that October, just in time for Halloween, workers are

(01:17:43):
breaking up the pub's foundation when they find a human
skull what because of the Hole in the Walls association
with Kate Webster, the skull is immediately suspected to be
Julia's missing head from all those years ago, I have chells.
According to Jan Bondisen quote, carbon dating indicated that the

(01:18:05):
skull was dated between sixteen fifty and eighteen eighty, but
it had been deposited on the top of a layer
of Victorian tiles. This skull had fracture marks consistent with
Kate Webster's account of throwing Missus thomas down the stairs,
and was found to have low collagen levels consistent with
being boiled. It entirely lacked teeth, something that is of

(01:18:27):
importance since we know that Kate Webster stole Missus Thomas's snappers,
which is from this quote I'm not saying snappers that's.

Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
In two thousand and nine, oh my god, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:37):
Which contained a gold plate to have them sold. In
July twenty eleven, the coroner concluded that the skull was
indeed that of Missus Thomas.

Speaker 2 (01:18:47):
David Attenborough, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
And so with that, with David Attenborough's remodel, that little
mystery that was still left over from this horrible murder, yeah,
was solved. And that is the story of the Victorian
era murder of Julia Martha Thomas by Kate Webster.

Speaker 2 (01:19:08):
Wait, so what did that she like put it in
the rafters, like, what's the story there behind some tiles?
Like what does that mean?

Speaker 1 (01:19:14):
They don't specify, and I'm not sure, but it sounds
like it was if they were down breaking up the foundation.
She may have figured out a way to bury it
or put it like in the basement somewhere.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
Yeah, like she knew the little cross basis and crevices
in this bar she used to go to all the time.
Oh my god, Yeah, isn't that crazy? Yeah? Wow? That
was wild? Like that is a book? That's yeah, right,
so interesting, so interesting, so crazy. What was the book called?
That's about that?

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
I'll tell you. Well, there's, of course, there's murder Pedia.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
Don't forget sure the book murder Pedia.

Speaker 1 (01:19:52):
There is the book from nineteen twenty five is called
Trial of Kate Webster. Okay, and then the Jan Bondison
book is Victorian Murder. So he okay, that's where he
kind of doesn't it's like an anthology. Yeah, is that
is that the right word? He goes over a bunch
of different stuff that happened.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
I can hear the parrots, the literal parrots, screaming in
the trees outside of my fucking house. Now, which means
that this episode is over.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
That's our that's our goodbye music.

Speaker 2 (01:20:21):
There's literally we have parrots in the neighborhood that are
like literal green parrots, like it's such a trip that
have like escaped trips there and they scream their fucking
heads off.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):
And they're like, stop podcasting, you're driving us insane.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
And if you're gonna get the crows peanuts, you have
to give peanuts to us too. It's only fair.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
Yeah, but they're like, we want crackers, so let's change
this shit up. I'll do crackers, throw more good stuffs.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
Listen, if you want to be my friend, it's gonna
have any snack you want.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
Any snack there is. Well, thanks listener for listening. You're
good at it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
We appreciate you using your senses to be here with us.
You know, it's hard in today's world. You know, it's
a slog Jesus.

Speaker 1 (01:21:08):
We just got one of your full on senses for
like an hour and what looks to be an hour
and a half.

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
That is generous, and you've got a bunch of hours.
It may not feel like it, but you did, Yeah,
you did.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
You know what, Listeners, stay sexy and don't get murdered.
Good Bye, Elvis.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
Do you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
This has been an exactly right production.

Speaker 2 (01:21:37):
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

Speaker 1 (01:21:39):
Our managing producers Hannah Kyle Crichton.

Speaker 2 (01:21:42):
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
This episode was mixed by Leanna Scuillacce.

Speaker 2 (01:21:47):
Our researchers are Mareon mcclashan and Ali Elkin.

Speaker 1 (01:21:50):
Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:21:53):
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my Favorite
Murder and Twitter at my favor Murder boyebye