March 13, 2025 • 36 mins
This week, Karen and Georgia sit down with the hosts of Exactly Right’s newest true crime podcast, The Knife. Journalists and producers Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton discuss their fresh approach to true crime storytelling, the importance of centering the voices of those affected by crime and what listeners can expect from their new show.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast premieres on March 27 with new episodes out every Thursday.
Follow, rate, and review The Knife wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the show on Bluesky and Instagram: @theknifepodcast.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to my Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstar,
that's Karen kil Gareff, and.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Today we have some very special guests to show you.
They are luminaries in the true crime podcast space. You
probably know them from their work on the amazing podcast
The Opportunist.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And now they have a brilliant new podcast that's going
to be living right here in our little universe of
exactly right Media. It's called The Knife and it premieres
on March twenty seventh. We're so excited to have Patia
Eton and Hannah Smith here with us the Knife Yay podcast. Yes,
this has been so thrilling, so exciting. We finally got
(00:56):
to tell everyone, and now you're here on the network. Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
It's the best feeling. We're so excited, so excited.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah yeah, yeah. When you guys came with this idea,
we were it was like a hard yes immediately of course,
what made you guys come up? Like what was your
Because you came off The Opportunist, you still wanted to
do true crime, but this is like kind of heavier,
darker stuff, like what made you want to get into
that world a little more?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:23):
So you know, we had a lot of time doing
the Opportunists to sort of think about what it is
that we like about the stories that we're telling. And
we spent a lot of time focusing on these bigger
seasoned stories where we're interviewing eight to ten people, which is,
you know, fantastic and you know, in a great way
(01:43):
to tell stories. But Patia and I would talk a
lot about an interview that we did with like one
victim of a crime that would stick with us, and
we would end up having to cut so much of
that in order to serve this bigger story, and we
would talk about like, but this could be a story
in and of itself, this could be an episode. And
(02:03):
so when we decided to do a show together, we
thought about that and wanted to do like more personal, intimate,
and more in depth stories with people whose lives have
been impacted by a crime, and so that we can
hear the whole story from the incident all the way
through the aftermath and just really sit with those stories
(02:24):
and give them time and space.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, became really apparent that when someone was the victim
of a crime, that crime was then like what's the
word reverberating throughout their life. Even when we would talk
to people where something happened ten twenty years before, it
was like still just so recent for them in a way,
and that felt really powerful to us. And also just
(02:48):
the freedom to tell stories that weren't in such a
specific lens like on our last show, which was really
cool but also left us with like we'd send each
other articles and it's like, oh, it doesn't fit show,
and we didn't want to be bound by that anymore,
and we just thought, I wonder if Karen and Georgia
would hear this pitch. Yes, we were like hell yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Hell yeah, Hannah, when you were on My Favorite Murder,
I think it was like three years ago, or wasn't that.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
COVID My god, I mean five years ago.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
That was one of our most popular episodes. Of course,
I have listened to every episode of The Opportunist, which
I know you also produced and worked on too.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
So yeah, I mean you guys.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
The second Danielle was like, oh, Hannah Smith and Paige
eat and have a pitch. We're just like the answers,
Yes we don't if they have a podcast about popcorn.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
The answer is.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Yes, Well that was our next I'm so happy to
hear that, y Yeah, yeah, cool, Yeah, exactly, We're going
for kettle corn. Yeah, very controversial.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Did you guys meet on The Opportunist?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Is that where you first started working together? We did? Yeah,
we met on the Opportunity. Yeah. I emailed the CEO
of the company that thought that, you know, oversaw the
Opportunist owned that show, and I was like, I wouldn't
work in podcast week, but I've never done it before,
Like would you can I interview on something? And I
ended up getting an associate producer interview on the show.
(04:18):
Didn't get it, Yeah, that's right, hired. I was like,
no way, I did not make that decision. He assistance
is everything. Yeah, and yeah from then on, I So
I joined The Opportunist in April of twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Yeah, yeah, and so I did the first season. So
you came on in season two, and you know, I
had been that was like the biggest break of my career.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
At that point.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I'd been working in podcasting since twenty seventeen, and I
had also been thinking a lot about like wanting a
creative partner. You know, I'd worked, I'd been around people
that had creative partnerships, had really like you know, envied
that and hoped for that, and I start working on
the show. And even though it was like her first
foray into podcasting and she'd worked in film and television
(05:06):
a lot, she's you know, a great writer and was
doing this career transition, which is something that I had
also done into podcasting a few years before. So it
just as soon as we met, it was like, oh,
we're both like on this same trajectory and we're fascinated
by the same kind of stories. And it was just
this instant sort of feeling of like, oh, yeah, we're
going to be making things together, and so it's just
(05:27):
so exciting that now we're doing that with our own show.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It's real.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
That's the best thing ever.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
When I first started working with Hannah, you know, I
was just an associate producer, and I was like, can
I just start giving feedback on scripts? And so I
was really comfortable with that working in script to TV,
and so I was just like, here, Hannah, here's an
alt for all your narration. Just take it or leave it.
And eventually it was like, yeah, okay, I like that.
And from there, you know, the show was a success,
(05:55):
and we were like we want to make something else,
but we don't have any time, and then all of
a sudden we did.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Hey, yeah, I love that you guys have this like
perfect this combination of the like podcast like wanting to
be in podcasting and then the pandemic kind of overlapping,
and it's just this like really cool I don't know,
like this like drive that you both had that just
you made it happen and it's just so impressive, Like
(06:22):
it's so cool it is.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I was going to ask, you got rejected the first interview,
did you go back immediately like I would if I
didn't get I remember interviewing at the warehouse when I
was seventeen and I didn't get the job, and I'm
still really upset about it.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
I you know, I was like I wanted the job,
and I remember being disappointed, but I also still had
a job. At that point. I was working at a
production company that was under a pod at Warner Brothers,
and I wasn't in like, okay, I need a job
right now, which was helpful, but I also, you know,
at that point, was like there are other podcasts jobs,
(07:00):
and so I started trying and I didn't get those either,
but it gave me hope because at that point, podcasting
was like, you know, there was this boom that happened
because especially with the pandemic, being able to make things
remotely was everything. You can't do that in TV, right,
And so I just kept applying and actually someone from
that company reached out and I interviewed again, and you know,
(07:22):
desperation when I got the job.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yes, but she had experience by them because you did
the really cool thing of just and I think this
is we can totally relate to of just like, well,
then I'm going to do it on my own. Yeah,
and you did that and you know, prove your point
that you're like this is where you should be.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Yeah, it was like this moment for me of I
had tried really hard to like make it as a
TV writer, and I had been in a couple of
comedy rooms and that was so exciting. I was a
writer assistant that I got my first credit and I'm
in the WGA and then nothing right, and that was
just you know, I wanted more control over being able
to like get a job if I was working really
hard and getting better at it, and so podcasting gave
(08:02):
me that. So, yeah, I found a missing person's case.
I spent all my extra time working on it, and
I just kind of taught myself how to like not
be offended when someone hangs up on you, and that's
the right questions and like find people's information online.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You guys are so good at that. I'm so impressed
and it like makes me sweat listening to you guys
talk about like cold calling people. Yeah, but you both
do it in a way that is like so kind.
You don't spring things on people. You don't have that
every day like predatory thing.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
That's some I'm trying to like get people when gotcha
we can get some information out of you. You know,
we really want people to feel comfortable and open up
to us. But it does mean you have to get
a lot out in like twenty seconds before they're like,
I think this might be a spam call and hang.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Up on you.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, my area code is like Maple Valley, Washington, and
they're like, excuse me, who you live in Los Angeles?
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Click you think that that it's like Washington.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
If it's someone in Washington, But sometimes it is. Yeah,
it's a I think it's just you have to get
a little more comfortable with being hung up on people
telling you not to call back and just accept that,
like that's their prerogative and it's part of it. But
most of the time people will hear you out whether
(09:22):
or not they agree to interview. And that was something
that was really exciting to me. I'm like, I get
to just be nosy. Yeah, yeah, this is unbelievable. I
love this.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
But then when those the interviews actually take place. In
your first episode, in your interviewing Darune about her attack,
there's this amazing part when I was listening to it
for the first time, where she is speaking for a
while and getting people to really talk about these experiences.
Is I'm sure a very delicate thing. She's talking and
talking and then you ask one quick question. I was like,
(09:54):
she's there, Hannah is there? So you're it's like you're
not directing it, you're not interrupting or anything, like clearly
you are leading that conversation in this way where you're
allowing people to kind of open up to you. Is
that How did you learn that skill? I don't know
how I learned that skill. I think like maybe I'm
not sure. I mean, sometimes our interviews go for a
(10:15):
very long time, and sometimes I'm like, well, maybe if
I were a better interview where I could really accomplish
this in one hour instead of two and a half.
But I just think like listening to people, being able
to like, you know, just create that space and let
people talk about an experience that they've been through that
sometimes is like very traumatic and hard for them to
(10:36):
talk about. But one thing we've also encountered a lot
is that, you know, especially like a.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Lot of times when we'd interview people who had been scammed,
they would say things like, wow, you know, people in
my life knew that this happened to me, but like,
no one's really taking the time to sit down and
just let me like tell the whole thing. And that
feels good that we're able to let people do that
or able to hear their story as well as share
(11:03):
it with the world. And yeah, I mean that's a
meaningful thing to me. So yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I mean, before we do an interview, we you know,
do whatever amount of research makes sense for that story
and have questions prepared. And sometimes we ask two of
these questions because they get answered on their own. But
it's really like, what is something that we think is
really interesting about this person's story or they're the way
(11:31):
that they reacted to something that happened to them, And
so those kinds of questions are always top of mind
when we're listening. But I think it's also we tell
them before the interview, like we want this to be
your story. We're gonna help guide you through telling it
because you know, jumping around through time. Oh, I remember
this thing that happened, And we want to be there
(11:52):
to help them but and make them feel comfortable. But
you know, we try really hard to just keep it
as authentic as possible.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, yeah, you guys have some Really it's a hard job.
Your first episode with Derune is so I mean emotional.
It's this awful attack that she I mean fought back
like a badass but experienced. Are Like, tell us more
about the season and in the episodes that you guys
are going to be doing, is it just kind of
more of these incredible cases.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Yeah, I mean we have, you know, that's part of
our drive for doing this kind of show is all
manner of stories. And you know, we have people like
Darune who you know, they're on a morning run and
something awful happens to them and they're fighting for their life,
and then there's the aftermath of that. We have people
who are in a domestic violent situation with the spouse
(12:43):
and the complications of that because you own a home
with someone, you have children with someone, and how do
you get out of that situation or how did this
person get out of that situation? And then you know,
we love a scam story whenever, sam cult story.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Cult stories.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
We have a wrongful conviction story coming up that is
really powerful.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Great identity theft.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
We're gonna try to cover a lot of different types
of crimes. Really like unifying theme is the approach that
we take to storytelling and just hearing firsthand from someone
who whose life was altered because of a crime.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
It's cool, amazing if you were forced and you might
be to do a different podcast of any.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Genre popcorn aside.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I mean, yeah, we've got the popcorn one on the
decks that's being that's in development now. But have you
ever thought of doing just going completely out of the
genre and doing anything different.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
I could talk about anything Bravo for sure, but no,
I mean, I we have just spent so much time
at the like over the last year and seven months
working on true crime podcasts, it would feel so unusual. Yeah,
I could talk about anything, Bravo, That's what I can.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I could do a Survivor podcast. I love Survivor's good show.
So television, maybe even though we watch a different television, different.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Television, there's some slight overlap with within true crime. Really yeah,
but I've been trying to get handed to watch the
real halfsis for example, to no Avail hasn't happened, I
feel like good.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, well, but the off record episode is a little
bit different. It is kind of it is new for
you guys, write something that is a little more like
chatty and less fully produced, fully journalistic.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yeah, for you about that. For you guys listening, we
have they have the episode full episode of the Knife,
and then the off record episodes are kind of the
it's almost like the kind of like.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
A mail bag episode or like a recap episode from
the main episode.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Like a more info.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Yeah, you know, we've sort of liked to think of
them as it could be a lot of different things.
We love the idea of mail bag answering listeners questions
and being able to interact with people in that way.
We also, you know, we are going to talk a
little bit about the conversations that patient I have making
true crime podcasts, Like, we have so many conversations to
(15:13):
do with sometimes it's like cold calling people or ethical
conversations about how we portray different stories. So we're gonna
have some of those conversations like on mic, so that
you know, listeners can be.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Part of that. Great let's also tell true crime stories. Yeah,
true crime story is also an opportunity for us to
tell stories where we didn't get the right interview, but like, wow,
this is a fascinating story and now I get to
tell Hannah all about it. And maybe we've like had
an on our list for a while, but no one
had had time to do a deep dive until now.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, you guys are like, I swear you feel like
a parallel universe us. But you guys have a lot
more homework. Do more homework. You guys are like really smart.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
It's chronic. At this point we're like, Okay, we need
to make this one really quick and easy.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Hours later, but I'm hoping like part of the off
record is an attempt to get away from that, to
have like more conversations with each other without having to
do tons of homework.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Well, I do think the audience will be so fascinated
because that is the piece that you never get from
like a limited series or the series that are more
journalistic and a little more formal and need to be.
But I just love that idea that you guys kind
of like, Yep, we can do that, and we can
do this, and then you can tell us what you
thought of that, and then we're going to do another one.
(16:31):
It's like a really fun kind of like backstage feel.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Yeah. Yeah, it's fun for us to talk about it
because we love the job so much and also just
this like hybrid of journalism and storytelling and we're not investigators,
but we are like making a podcast and I think
that's you know, maybe a lesser known skill set for sure.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
And you guys did you did it in such a
cool way, as I said earlier, just the way you
were like I want to be in podcasts, Like I
know you guys were listening to Cereal when it came out,
and it's like, oh, this is a thing we can do.
And I feel like we had the exact same thought
of let's just start it, let's do this, and I
think that's.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Really like it's inspiring.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, totally. I think people were going to really love
to hear about that.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
In your years of research and having to do those
deep dives, and I know it's you know, depending on
the subject, but is there anything you've ever uncovered learned
a factoid, like something crazy.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I just always picture you guys.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Working at like late at night with one light and
you're like, you know, on Lexus Nexus, like trying to
figure stuff out, like do you can you just like
recap one moment where you had like that kind of
journalistic Nancy Drew discovery or anything.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
There have definitely been things said on preliminary calls where
we're just getting some background information where we're like, we
have to level with them. We're not going to touch that,
you know, like that not going to come up, and
if you if it comes up in an interview, we're
not gonna it's not going to make the episode. Whether
that's maybe you know something that we don't agree with
(18:10):
value system wise, or accusations. You know, people have very
different experiences within a crime story and we'll really get
fired up about it and so you know, figuring out
how to make sure that person feels heard, but also
we want to do it right?
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean there's the research, and then
also there's learning things from conversations with people, just because
like you know, there's the headline and then there's an article,
and then maybe there's a longer form article if you're lucky,
and then you know, I'm like, Okay, where's the documentary
(18:48):
or where's the book or where you know, and then
you hit like a a stop where there's just nothing more.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Like a Reddit thread.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Maybe yeah, maybe there's.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
A Reddit thread, and you know, I think like I've
always just been like, what's what? What else? Like I
just have more questions. And so then through you know,
finding someone who was like, oh yeah that was you know,
you know, yeah I was there or whatever, and I
knew that person, and then oh great, will you talk
to me? And then you know, having a two hour
long conversation with that person. There's so much that will
(19:16):
come out. Like I'm thinking about like Season three of
the opportunities we did with the cat Cult and.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Which I found that story by googling quote cult plus
sign cat quote end quote, and I'm like, I wonder
it was out there just for cares. There was one
little article came up and I was like, I don't
know if I should pitch this to Hannah. Is this
too much? She's like, I love it. So this is
(19:43):
the exact kind of story I want to tell you.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
And then when we had a conversation with Mary, who
is married to this man who used to be married
to the cult leader. During the interview, she revealed to
us that there was an attempted murder involved with the
story where she had befriended this guy years later who
was her you know, assassin, essentially, that the cult leader
(20:08):
had tried to convince him to kill her and her
husband and he didn't, and then years later they became friends.
So that was a moment where this whole other aspect
of the story opened up and we're like, wait a minute, what,
Like there's also like, you know, a potential attempted murder here,
So there's you know, that was a big moment, but
there's a lot of moments that happened like that.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, it's amazing. How has it been like in your
line of work, How is law enforcement communication going for
you guys? It seems like that would be a tough one.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
It is, and it's not. It's like, if there's a
case where you know it's case closed, someone's been convicted, sentenced.
Usually there's law enforcement who will happily talk about it
because it's maybe something to consider a career accomplishment, and
maybe it is. But if the case is still open,
it can be a lot more difficult. And you know,
(21:02):
when we do those interviews, they can still be very
useful for information, but you're not going to get someone
to like reflect or give you anything beyond you know,
very like by the book answer, And that can be challenging,
but I would say overall pretty good.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I do want to know more about the interviews you
do with people involved in the case. The first off
record episode is so incredible about these missing teens and
you got friends to talk, you got family to talk. Yeah,
I mean that's like and you went you went there
in person too. It's like that just has to change everything.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
It did. It changed everything, you know. I went to
the DA's office and you know, sat down with an
investigator who had previously been a detective on the case
when he was earlier in his career. It was incredible.
I got to I fell in love with it because
I met so many people I would have never met.
And you know, I got immersed in the story and
(22:00):
really got to understand how current it all was for
them still. You know, their friends had gone missing, you know,
twenty years earlier, and they're talking about these memories that
are so vivid for them and also unpacking it with
me for really the first time for a lot of them,
(22:21):
because it was a small town and the same theories
had circulated, and I just thought, like, this is such
a privilege that these people are taking this complete stranger
into their home. I had a little Olympus recording thing
that I got her like twenty bucks, and I'm you know,
they're just talking to me, and they didn't care that
(22:42):
I had no previous podcasting experience. They only cared that
someone wanted to hear their story. And that really hit
home and was like, I'm so motivated to do this now.
And then you know, I got I got my job
on the opportunitists got much busier. Wasn't really sure how
to end the story. I was so new to it.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
And you recorded like multiple episodes and put them together. Yeah,
I don't remember how many, but I'm one of the
few people that have the privilege of listening to it.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
And it was really good, amazing, but the.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Case was still unsolved, and you didn't you weren't sure
how to end it.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I wasn't sure how to end it. And I also
felt conflicted about some of the tape because you know,
there were two missing teens, Jeremy Bechdel and Aaron Foster,
and Jeremy's family was very open with me. Aaron's family
was much less, and I started feeling conflicted about putting
so much out there without their support, and that was
(23:34):
something I was thinking a lot about. I didn't have
the confidence in my storytelling ability that I have after
having done it now, but it was just so interesting
to like, I'm going to get case file access to
a case file, I'm going to get to go ask
these people questions. And you know I didn't. I didn't
break news with the story, but I was able to
(23:56):
sort of piece together enough to be like, I know
that they left that party, and I know that after
that party they went to Aaron's house, and I had
only ever heard or read that they had left that
party and never been seen again, and that was enough
for me to be like, sometimes it just takes like
not a professional, but like fresh eyes or energy into
(24:17):
doing something and I didn't solve that case. They did,
and they with the help of this YouTube diver exploring
the nug spoiler spoiler spoiler. Yeah, but it was so
amazing because I had built so many relationships in that
town that when as they're literally pulling the car up
(24:37):
from the river, people are calling me yeah, and I
was like, oh my gosh. And so then I felt
this way of like, well, I now have all of
these relationships with Jeremy's family members. I need to call
them and like, did you inform them? One of them?
I informed him because he had been calling me and
we had been playing phone tag. And then it felt
(24:59):
strange and I just and I don't have any details.
I've just heard that Aaron's car was found in the
river and you need to call sheriff Page and incredible. Yeah,
it was, you know, I didn't want to make those
phone calls, certainly, but when you're talking to people every
day for a long time, they're wanting to talk about
it with you. And it was just a great experience.
(25:22):
And also I think with missing persons cases, for me,
there's that hope and even though you know, after twenty years,
I think hope dwindles. But I really liked that aspect
of it, and that was just it was exciting.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
So well as a cold case junkie, I really was
just that story was incredible well.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
And also it's that's such a good point that like
when something happens to people a tramline, all of a sudden,
just your child is gone. You're you know, they're just
there's no explanation and people help you for a little
while and then just nothing. The idea that that you
were left to process that or just or not because
you don't get any answers. It's not the same as
(26:04):
like there's a death in the family. It's just it's
a total void. And like you know, you describing it
that way, it's like it must be incredibly powerful to
have someone come and say I care about what this
is and I want to help in some way I do.
That is what I love about the true crime community
is like there are so many sincere, sincerely caring like
(26:26):
professionals and non professionals that are like what can I do?
What could I look up online? Like what could I research?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah, And it also is very eye opening in the
way of like it's easy to say, oh, you know
why didn't the why didn't local law enforcement do more?
Obviously they didn't run away to Florida. They they left
a paycheck behind like all of these like quote unquote
like obvious things that had happened or not happened and blame.
(26:53):
But when you talk to all of these different people,
it's like, you know, well, wait a minute, that that
office had one computer at the time, so that these
notes are handwritten and then typed out, And how many
notes are you taking if you're writing something by hand totally?
And what does this game of telephone really look like
even if you're trying your best? What was the training
at the time? It wasn't. So then it was like, okay,
(27:14):
I have to take a step back because it's not
one person's fault. It wasn't like there were a lot
of things that should have gone differently and didn't. But
it made me take a step back and think about
how little you really get from reading an article, and
I just wanted to know more.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Do you have a story like that of something that's
happened where you're just getting involved? Kind of turned turned
things a little bit. That's like that maybe journalistic satisfaction
that you get to have sometimes I don't.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Know if I have a story quite like that where
that where it gets solved a missing person's case.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
I mean that's pretty incredible. Yeah, but certainly, like you know,
we've talked to people that have reached out to Hannah
from just knowing her from the opportunist and said, well,
what about my right? Can you look into this? And
you know, I think that is a cool place to be,
like someone thinks that I care enough to look into
this and like actually do some research. And I think
(28:11):
that that's also a really like great thing about being
able to connect with listeners.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
M Yeah, absolutely, And I mean, like you know, I've
never yeah, I've never solved a case or anything like that.
That's season two, Yeah, that's coming. But you know, just
being able to bring it to like people's attention, to
continue to keep attention on these things as we were
just talking about, I think means a lot. And you
(28:39):
never know what that can do. It's like, you know,
Paysha didn't solve this case, but the fact that there
was so much attention on it, I don't know, it
keeps it fresh in people's minds and you just never know,
like what that could lead to. So that's what I
usually tell people when they're like, I have this, you know, case,
and well, I'm not able to solve it. I'm not
an investigator, but we can certainly tell that story and
(29:02):
then hopefully that will help you connect to other people
or resources to you know, hopefully make some leeway there.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, you guys have that thing that I think that
people who are into true crime, like we are murderinas,
which is this like curiosity about the way humans work
and the way these decisions with people make effects like
everyone's life around them. And it can hear that in
(29:32):
the podcast, This curiosity that you guys have that's so
so pure, and I totally identify with it totally.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
I mean, I think that that so many people who
love true crime feel that way, right, and it makes
me think of Actually this episode of a podcast that
you sent me years ago, it's a criminal episode. We
know you all love criminals as well. Yeah, so good.
And she was interviewing Eryl Morris, you know, he was
talking about crime stories and always just stuck with me.
(30:02):
He talked about like the heart of crime stories is
just humanity, you know, it's and I just agree with
that so wholeheartedly, you know, in all of these stories,
of course there is some incident, some dramatic incident, right,
but like within that there are stories of people surviving
(30:23):
or people seeking justice and the complications of what that
looks like what does that even mean, and how people
hurt each other and how people try to heal and
what that does to an individual person and to a community.
I mean, it is just humanity. It's like how we
all live together, and that is just endlessly compelling.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Yeah, it makes me think of the episode and the Opportunists,
and look, the Opportunist was great, congratulations, your new podcast
is amazing. But you know, I just have the memory
of you talking about the people who invested in the
guys who were claiming that they were going to go
find that this sunken treasure boat. And so it's that
(31:07):
kind of story where it's like, this is not a murder,
this is not you know, one of those kind of stories.
It's it's a scam story that as it went, it
just became more and more heartbreaking as I listened to it.
Of like these people who it's like it's easy to
go like, oh, well you made a mistake or that
was a dumb investment and It's like these guys went
through and just methodically drained the bank accounts of retirees
(31:30):
and like just destroyed these families. And that was just
kind of like, well, too bad for you. And I'm
sure that there are people who like when if they
go through an experience like that, being able to hear
somebody else, be able to say it, and have, you know,
the validity, like be able to give it the gravitas
it deserves of like this is horrible. It should not
be happening. We should have systems set up or how
(31:52):
do you what are the next steps you take when
someone doesn't just you know, rip you off, but like
you lose all your money.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
You think it's gonna be you. Like ever, you know,
we've probably never interviewed someone and been like, oh, I
could see how that happened to them.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
It's like no, that could be all of us, Like yeah, no,
one is like well I kind of expected that to.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Happen, right, So.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
You never think it's going to be you. And I
think there's also this like self exploration that happens where
you're like when you when that feeling creeps in, like
something's not right here, this other part of you is
in survival mode, being like everything's fine, I'm sure it's okay,
it's all gonna come together, and like those two voices
(32:36):
are battling it out in your head until there's this
point of no return. And you know that's not someone
being naive all the time. That's just like life. You
have to trust people sometimes and you know, maybe a
gold bar at the bottom of the ocean sounds far fetched,
but it's not like this random person knocked on someone's
(32:57):
door and said, I know where to find you know,
somen treasure boat. It's like, this is a trusted person
in the community, supported by another trusted person in the community,
and that goes a long way.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
For people, which makes it all the more evil. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Oh, that was a tough one. That was tough.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, it's very satisfying that we get to host a
podcast where there's the potential, where obviously there's the relation
of there's a crime, and then somebody gets to tell
their story, be a survivor, be you know, get their
voice out there. But then that's someone listening at home
who might not have any of that support or any
(33:34):
of that kind of platform gets to relate or have
somewhere to go or a next steps kind of plan.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Yeah, and just feel seen, like, Wow, a version of
that happened to me, and here's someone talking about it
in a way that's not pejorative or demeaning. It's just
like that could be like I'm not, you know, the
only person this has ever happened to. Something's not wrong
with me. Somewhere did something wrong to me? Yeah, and
know that like goes back to even even when I was,
(34:03):
you know, researching that case in Tennessee. It's like this,
this idea that someone feels heard becomes really important in
the work that we're doing. And is I think something
we don't want to lose in our storytelling.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah. I think that's impossible forget you guys to lose.
I think that's just second nature for you.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
It's so cool. It's definitely like the most fun I've
ever had.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
It's great.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
It's exactly what I want to be doing. Yeah, I
love it. It's so exciting.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
It's so I feel like people are going to really
really love this podcast. I just we've everyone that works
here has listened to it. It's just like it's a hit.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
It's a hit.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
It's just so great. Yeah, great, Jo so much.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
We're so excited to be here.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
And you know, you all have supported us so much
to you know, shouting out the show back you know
when we were doing it and always being like just
cheering us on and that we always saw that and
always meant a lot to us. And so you know,
it just feels like a really great place for us
to be. It just feels right, and so are really
happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Does it feel exactly right.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Together? Okay, then you should just sign your life away
right here.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yeah, exactly, Yay, honestly, and I mean, like you know,
this is business, but also we adore you guys.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
We love the work you do.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
We're so proud of the show that you've made and
the fact that we get to put it on our network.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
So thank you so much, thanks for being thank you. Yeah,
thank you so much. Yeah, that's it's the best feeling ever. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
So The Knife launches on March twenty seventh, and new
episodes are up every Thursday. Please listen and don't forget
to go and follow, rate, review, subscribe, support, show up,
and on Instagram and Blue Sky.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
You can find them at The Knife Podcast.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Thanks you guys, Thank you guys so much.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yay, okay, goodbyeye Elvis, do you want to cookie?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
This has been an exactly right production.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Our managing producers Hannah Kyle Creighton.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Our editor is Aristotle Oscevedo.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
This episode was mixed by Leona Scualace.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Our researchers are Maren mcclashan and Ali Elkin.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my Favorite Murder.
Bye Bye
Hello, and welcome to my Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstar,
that's Karen kil Gareff, and.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Today we have some very special guests to show you.
They are luminaries in the true crime podcast space. You
probably know them from their work on the amazing podcast
The Opportunist.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And now they have a brilliant new podcast that's going
to be living right here in our little universe of
exactly right Media. It's called The Knife and it premieres
on March twenty seventh. We're so excited to have Patia
Eton and Hannah Smith here with us the Knife Yay podcast. Yes,
this has been so thrilling, so exciting. We finally got
(00:56):
to tell everyone, and now you're here on the network. Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
It's the best feeling. We're so excited, so excited.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah yeah, yeah. When you guys came with this idea,
we were it was like a hard yes immediately of course,
what made you guys come up? Like what was your
Because you came off The Opportunist, you still wanted to
do true crime, but this is like kind of heavier,
darker stuff, like what made you want to get into
that world a little more?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:23):
So you know, we had a lot of time doing
the Opportunists to sort of think about what it is
that we like about the stories that we're telling. And
we spent a lot of time focusing on these bigger
seasoned stories where we're interviewing eight to ten people, which is,
you know, fantastic and you know, in a great way
(01:43):
to tell stories. But Patia and I would talk a
lot about an interview that we did with like one
victim of a crime that would stick with us, and
we would end up having to cut so much of
that in order to serve this bigger story, and we
would talk about like, but this could be a story
in and of itself, this could be an episode. And
(02:03):
so when we decided to do a show together, we
thought about that and wanted to do like more personal, intimate,
and more in depth stories with people whose lives have
been impacted by a crime, and so that we can
hear the whole story from the incident all the way
through the aftermath and just really sit with those stories
(02:24):
and give them time and space.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, became really apparent that when someone was the victim
of a crime, that crime was then like what's the
word reverberating throughout their life. Even when we would talk
to people where something happened ten twenty years before, it
was like still just so recent for them in a way,
and that felt really powerful to us. And also just
(02:48):
the freedom to tell stories that weren't in such a
specific lens like on our last show, which was really
cool but also left us with like we'd send each
other articles and it's like, oh, it doesn't fit show,
and we didn't want to be bound by that anymore,
and we just thought, I wonder if Karen and Georgia
would hear this pitch. Yes, we were like hell yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Hell yeah, Hannah, when you were on My Favorite Murder,
I think it was like three years ago, or wasn't that.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
COVID My god, I mean five years ago.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
That was one of our most popular episodes. Of course,
I have listened to every episode of The Opportunist, which
I know you also produced and worked on too.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
So yeah, I mean you guys.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
The second Danielle was like, oh, Hannah Smith and Paige
eat and have a pitch. We're just like the answers,
Yes we don't if they have a podcast about popcorn.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
The answer is.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Yes, Well that was our next I'm so happy to
hear that, y Yeah, yeah, cool, Yeah, exactly, We're going
for kettle corn. Yeah, very controversial.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Did you guys meet on The Opportunist?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Is that where you first started working together? We did? Yeah,
we met on the Opportunity. Yeah. I emailed the CEO
of the company that thought that, you know, oversaw the
Opportunist owned that show, and I was like, I wouldn't
work in podcast week, but I've never done it before,
Like would you can I interview on something? And I
ended up getting an associate producer interview on the show.
(04:18):
Didn't get it, Yeah, that's right, hired. I was like,
no way, I did not make that decision. He assistance
is everything. Yeah, and yeah from then on, I So
I joined The Opportunist in April of twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Yeah, yeah, and so I did the first season. So
you came on in season two, and you know, I
had been that was like the biggest break of my career.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
At that point.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I'd been working in podcasting since twenty seventeen, and I
had also been thinking a lot about like wanting a
creative partner. You know, I'd worked, I'd been around people
that had creative partnerships, had really like you know, envied
that and hoped for that, and I start working on
the show. And even though it was like her first
foray into podcasting and she'd worked in film and television
(05:06):
a lot, she's you know, a great writer and was
doing this career transition, which is something that I had
also done into podcasting a few years before. So it
just as soon as we met, it was like, oh,
we're both like on this same trajectory and we're fascinated
by the same kind of stories. And it was just
this instant sort of feeling of like, oh, yeah, we're
going to be making things together, and so it's just
(05:27):
so exciting that now we're doing that with our own show.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It's real.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
That's the best thing ever.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
When I first started working with Hannah, you know, I
was just an associate producer, and I was like, can
I just start giving feedback on scripts? And so I
was really comfortable with that working in script to TV,
and so I was just like, here, Hannah, here's an
alt for all your narration. Just take it or leave it.
And eventually it was like, yeah, okay, I like that.
And from there, you know, the show was a success,
(05:55):
and we were like we want to make something else,
but we don't have any time, and then all of
a sudden we did.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Hey, yeah, I love that you guys have this like
perfect this combination of the like podcast like wanting to
be in podcasting and then the pandemic kind of overlapping,
and it's just this like really cool I don't know,
like this like drive that you both had that just
you made it happen and it's just so impressive, Like
(06:22):
it's so cool it is.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I was going to ask, you got rejected the first interview,
did you go back immediately like I would if I
didn't get I remember interviewing at the warehouse when I
was seventeen and I didn't get the job, and I'm
still really upset about it.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
I you know, I was like I wanted the job,
and I remember being disappointed, but I also still had
a job. At that point. I was working at a
production company that was under a pod at Warner Brothers,
and I wasn't in like, okay, I need a job
right now, which was helpful, but I also, you know,
at that point, was like there are other podcasts jobs,
(07:00):
and so I started trying and I didn't get those either,
but it gave me hope because at that point, podcasting
was like, you know, there was this boom that happened
because especially with the pandemic, being able to make things
remotely was everything. You can't do that in TV, right,
And so I just kept applying and actually someone from
that company reached out and I interviewed again, and you know,
(07:22):
desperation when I got the job.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yes, but she had experience by them because you did
the really cool thing of just and I think this
is we can totally relate to of just like, well,
then I'm going to do it on my own. Yeah,
and you did that and you know, prove your point
that you're like this is where you should be.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Yeah, it was like this moment for me of I
had tried really hard to like make it as a
TV writer, and I had been in a couple of
comedy rooms and that was so exciting. I was a
writer assistant that I got my first credit and I'm
in the WGA and then nothing right, and that was
just you know, I wanted more control over being able
to like get a job if I was working really
hard and getting better at it, and so podcasting gave
(08:02):
me that. So, yeah, I found a missing person's case.
I spent all my extra time working on it, and
I just kind of taught myself how to like not
be offended when someone hangs up on you, and that's
the right questions and like find people's information online.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You guys are so good at that. I'm so impressed
and it like makes me sweat listening to you guys
talk about like cold calling people. Yeah, but you both
do it in a way that is like so kind.
You don't spring things on people. You don't have that
every day like predatory thing.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
That's some I'm trying to like get people when gotcha
we can get some information out of you. You know,
we really want people to feel comfortable and open up
to us. But it does mean you have to get
a lot out in like twenty seconds before they're like,
I think this might be a spam call and hang.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Up on you.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, my area code is like Maple Valley, Washington, and
they're like, excuse me, who you live in Los Angeles?
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Click you think that that it's like Washington.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
If it's someone in Washington, But sometimes it is. Yeah,
it's a I think it's just you have to get
a little more comfortable with being hung up on people
telling you not to call back and just accept that,
like that's their prerogative and it's part of it. But
most of the time people will hear you out whether
(09:22):
or not they agree to interview. And that was something
that was really exciting to me. I'm like, I get
to just be nosy. Yeah, yeah, this is unbelievable. I
love this.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
But then when those the interviews actually take place. In
your first episode, in your interviewing Darune about her attack,
there's this amazing part when I was listening to it
for the first time, where she is speaking for a
while and getting people to really talk about these experiences.
Is I'm sure a very delicate thing. She's talking and
talking and then you ask one quick question. I was like,
(09:54):
she's there, Hannah is there? So you're it's like you're
not directing it, you're not interrupting or anything, like clearly
you are leading that conversation in this way where you're
allowing people to kind of open up to you. Is
that How did you learn that skill? I don't know
how I learned that skill. I think like maybe I'm
not sure. I mean, sometimes our interviews go for a
(10:15):
very long time, and sometimes I'm like, well, maybe if
I were a better interview where I could really accomplish
this in one hour instead of two and a half.
But I just think like listening to people, being able
to like, you know, just create that space and let
people talk about an experience that they've been through that
sometimes is like very traumatic and hard for them to
(10:36):
talk about. But one thing we've also encountered a lot
is that, you know, especially like a.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Lot of times when we'd interview people who had been scammed,
they would say things like, wow, you know, people in
my life knew that this happened to me, but like,
no one's really taking the time to sit down and
just let me like tell the whole thing. And that
feels good that we're able to let people do that
or able to hear their story as well as share
(11:03):
it with the world. And yeah, I mean that's a
meaningful thing to me. So yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I mean, before we do an interview, we you know,
do whatever amount of research makes sense for that story
and have questions prepared. And sometimes we ask two of
these questions because they get answered on their own. But
it's really like, what is something that we think is
really interesting about this person's story or they're the way
(11:31):
that they reacted to something that happened to them, And
so those kinds of questions are always top of mind
when we're listening. But I think it's also we tell
them before the interview, like we want this to be
your story. We're gonna help guide you through telling it
because you know, jumping around through time. Oh, I remember
this thing that happened, And we want to be there
(11:52):
to help them but and make them feel comfortable. But
you know, we try really hard to just keep it
as authentic as possible.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, yeah, you guys have some Really it's a hard job.
Your first episode with Derune is so I mean emotional.
It's this awful attack that she I mean fought back
like a badass but experienced. Are Like, tell us more
about the season and in the episodes that you guys
are going to be doing, is it just kind of
more of these incredible cases.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Yeah, I mean we have, you know, that's part of
our drive for doing this kind of show is all
manner of stories. And you know, we have people like
Darune who you know, they're on a morning run and
something awful happens to them and they're fighting for their life,
and then there's the aftermath of that. We have people
who are in a domestic violent situation with the spouse
(12:43):
and the complications of that because you own a home
with someone, you have children with someone, and how do
you get out of that situation or how did this
person get out of that situation? And then you know,
we love a scam story whenever, sam cult story.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Cult stories.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
We have a wrongful conviction story coming up that is
really powerful.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Great identity theft.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
We're gonna try to cover a lot of different types
of crimes. Really like unifying theme is the approach that
we take to storytelling and just hearing firsthand from someone
who whose life was altered because of a crime.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
It's cool, amazing if you were forced and you might
be to do a different podcast of any.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Genre popcorn aside.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I mean, yeah, we've got the popcorn one on the
decks that's being that's in development now. But have you
ever thought of doing just going completely out of the
genre and doing anything different.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
I could talk about anything Bravo for sure, but no,
I mean, I we have just spent so much time
at the like over the last year and seven months
working on true crime podcasts, it would feel so unusual. Yeah,
I could talk about anything, Bravo, That's what I can.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
I could do a Survivor podcast. I love Survivor's good show.
So television, maybe even though we watch a different television, different.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Television, there's some slight overlap with within true crime. Really yeah,
but I've been trying to get handed to watch the
real halfsis for example, to no Avail hasn't happened, I
feel like good.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, well, but the off record episode is a little
bit different. It is kind of it is new for
you guys, write something that is a little more like
chatty and less fully produced, fully journalistic.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yeah, for you about that. For you guys listening, we
have they have the episode full episode of the Knife,
and then the off record episodes are kind of the
it's almost like the kind of like.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
A mail bag episode or like a recap episode from
the main episode.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Like a more info.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Yeah, you know, we've sort of liked to think of
them as it could be a lot of different things.
We love the idea of mail bag answering listeners questions
and being able to interact with people in that way.
We also, you know, we are going to talk a
little bit about the conversations that patient I have making
true crime podcasts, Like, we have so many conversations to
(15:13):
do with sometimes it's like cold calling people or ethical
conversations about how we portray different stories. So we're gonna
have some of those conversations like on mic, so that
you know, listeners can be.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Part of that. Great let's also tell true crime stories. Yeah,
true crime story is also an opportunity for us to
tell stories where we didn't get the right interview, but like, wow,
this is a fascinating story and now I get to
tell Hannah all about it. And maybe we've like had
an on our list for a while, but no one
had had time to do a deep dive until now.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, you guys are like, I swear you feel like
a parallel universe us. But you guys have a lot
more homework. Do more homework. You guys are like really smart.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
It's chronic. At this point we're like, Okay, we need
to make this one really quick and easy.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Hours later, but I'm hoping like part of the off
record is an attempt to get away from that, to
have like more conversations with each other without having to
do tons of homework.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Well, I do think the audience will be so fascinated
because that is the piece that you never get from
like a limited series or the series that are more
journalistic and a little more formal and need to be.
But I just love that idea that you guys kind
of like, Yep, we can do that, and we can
do this, and then you can tell us what you
thought of that, and then we're going to do another one.
(16:31):
It's like a really fun kind of like backstage feel.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Yeah. Yeah, it's fun for us to talk about it
because we love the job so much and also just
this like hybrid of journalism and storytelling and we're not investigators,
but we are like making a podcast and I think
that's you know, maybe a lesser known skill set for sure.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
And you guys did you did it in such a
cool way, as I said earlier, just the way you
were like I want to be in podcasts, Like I
know you guys were listening to Cereal when it came out,
and it's like, oh, this is a thing we can do.
And I feel like we had the exact same thought
of let's just start it, let's do this, and I
think that's.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Really like it's inspiring.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, totally. I think people were going to really love
to hear about that.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
In your years of research and having to do those
deep dives, and I know it's you know, depending on
the subject, but is there anything you've ever uncovered learned
a factoid, like something crazy.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I just always picture you guys.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Working at like late at night with one light and
you're like, you know, on Lexus Nexus, like trying to
figure stuff out, like do you can you just like
recap one moment where you had like that kind of
journalistic Nancy Drew discovery or anything.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
There have definitely been things said on preliminary calls where
we're just getting some background information where we're like, we
have to level with them. We're not going to touch that,
you know, like that not going to come up, and
if you if it comes up in an interview, we're
not gonna it's not going to make the episode. Whether
that's maybe you know something that we don't agree with
(18:10):
value system wise, or accusations. You know, people have very
different experiences within a crime story and we'll really get
fired up about it and so you know, figuring out
how to make sure that person feels heard, but also
we want to do it right?
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean there's the research, and then
also there's learning things from conversations with people, just because
like you know, there's the headline and then there's an article,
and then maybe there's a longer form article if you're lucky,
and then you know, I'm like, Okay, where's the documentary
(18:48):
or where's the book or where you know, and then
you hit like a a stop where there's just nothing more.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Like a Reddit thread.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Maybe yeah, maybe there's.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
A Reddit thread, and you know, I think like I've
always just been like, what's what? What else? Like I
just have more questions. And so then through you know,
finding someone who was like, oh yeah that was you know,
you know, yeah I was there or whatever, and I
knew that person, and then oh great, will you talk
to me? And then you know, having a two hour
long conversation with that person. There's so much that will
(19:16):
come out. Like I'm thinking about like Season three of
the opportunities we did with the cat Cult and.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Which I found that story by googling quote cult plus
sign cat quote end quote, and I'm like, I wonder
it was out there just for cares. There was one
little article came up and I was like, I don't
know if I should pitch this to Hannah. Is this
too much? She's like, I love it. So this is
(19:43):
the exact kind of story I want to tell you.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
And then when we had a conversation with Mary, who
is married to this man who used to be married
to the cult leader. During the interview, she revealed to
us that there was an attempted murder involved with the
story where she had befriended this guy years later who
was her you know, assassin, essentially, that the cult leader
(20:08):
had tried to convince him to kill her and her
husband and he didn't, and then years later they became friends.
So that was a moment where this whole other aspect
of the story opened up and we're like, wait a minute, what,
Like there's also like, you know, a potential attempted murder here,
So there's you know, that was a big moment, but
there's a lot of moments that happened like that.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, it's amazing. How has it been like in your
line of work, How is law enforcement communication going for
you guys? It seems like that would be a tough one.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
It is, and it's not. It's like, if there's a
case where you know it's case closed, someone's been convicted, sentenced.
Usually there's law enforcement who will happily talk about it
because it's maybe something to consider a career accomplishment, and
maybe it is. But if the case is still open,
it can be a lot more difficult. And you know,
(21:02):
when we do those interviews, they can still be very
useful for information, but you're not going to get someone
to like reflect or give you anything beyond you know,
very like by the book answer, And that can be challenging,
but I would say overall pretty good.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I do want to know more about the interviews you
do with people involved in the case. The first off
record episode is so incredible about these missing teens and
you got friends to talk, you got family to talk. Yeah,
I mean that's like and you went you went there
in person too. It's like that just has to change everything.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
It did. It changed everything, you know. I went to
the DA's office and you know, sat down with an
investigator who had previously been a detective on the case
when he was earlier in his career. It was incredible.
I got to I fell in love with it because
I met so many people I would have never met.
And you know, I got immersed in the story and
(22:00):
really got to understand how current it all was for
them still. You know, their friends had gone missing, you know,
twenty years earlier, and they're talking about these memories that
are so vivid for them and also unpacking it with
me for really the first time for a lot of them,
(22:21):
because it was a small town and the same theories
had circulated, and I just thought, like, this is such
a privilege that these people are taking this complete stranger
into their home. I had a little Olympus recording thing
that I got her like twenty bucks, and I'm you know,
they're just talking to me, and they didn't care that
(22:42):
I had no previous podcasting experience. They only cared that
someone wanted to hear their story. And that really hit
home and was like, I'm so motivated to do this now.
And then you know, I got I got my job
on the opportunitists got much busier. Wasn't really sure how
to end the story. I was so new to it.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
And you recorded like multiple episodes and put them together. Yeah,
I don't remember how many, but I'm one of the
few people that have the privilege of listening to it.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
And it was really good, amazing, but the.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Case was still unsolved, and you didn't you weren't sure
how to end it.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I wasn't sure how to end it. And I also
felt conflicted about some of the tape because you know,
there were two missing teens, Jeremy Bechdel and Aaron Foster,
and Jeremy's family was very open with me. Aaron's family
was much less, and I started feeling conflicted about putting
so much out there without their support, and that was
(23:34):
something I was thinking a lot about. I didn't have
the confidence in my storytelling ability that I have after
having done it now, but it was just so interesting
to like, I'm going to get case file access to
a case file, I'm going to get to go ask
these people questions. And you know I didn't. I didn't
break news with the story, but I was able to
(23:56):
sort of piece together enough to be like, I know
that they left that party, and I know that after
that party they went to Aaron's house, and I had
only ever heard or read that they had left that
party and never been seen again, and that was enough
for me to be like, sometimes it just takes like
not a professional, but like fresh eyes or energy into
(24:17):
doing something and I didn't solve that case. They did,
and they with the help of this YouTube diver exploring
the nug spoiler spoiler spoiler. Yeah, but it was so
amazing because I had built so many relationships in that
town that when as they're literally pulling the car up
(24:37):
from the river, people are calling me yeah, and I
was like, oh my gosh. And so then I felt
this way of like, well, I now have all of
these relationships with Jeremy's family members. I need to call
them and like, did you inform them? One of them?
I informed him because he had been calling me and
we had been playing phone tag. And then it felt
(24:59):
strange and I just and I don't have any details.
I've just heard that Aaron's car was found in the
river and you need to call sheriff Page and incredible. Yeah,
it was, you know, I didn't want to make those
phone calls, certainly, but when you're talking to people every
day for a long time, they're wanting to talk about
it with you. And it was just a great experience.
(25:22):
And also I think with missing persons cases, for me,
there's that hope and even though you know, after twenty years,
I think hope dwindles. But I really liked that aspect
of it, and that was just it was exciting.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
So well as a cold case junkie, I really was
just that story was incredible well.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
And also it's that's such a good point that like
when something happens to people a tramline, all of a sudden,
just your child is gone. You're you know, they're just
there's no explanation and people help you for a little
while and then just nothing. The idea that that you
were left to process that or just or not because
you don't get any answers. It's not the same as
(26:04):
like there's a death in the family. It's just it's
a total void. And like you know, you describing it
that way, it's like it must be incredibly powerful to
have someone come and say I care about what this
is and I want to help in some way I do.
That is what I love about the true crime community
is like there are so many sincere, sincerely caring like
(26:26):
professionals and non professionals that are like what can I do?
What could I look up online? Like what could I research?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah, And it also is very eye opening in the
way of like it's easy to say, oh, you know
why didn't the why didn't local law enforcement do more?
Obviously they didn't run away to Florida. They they left
a paycheck behind like all of these like quote unquote
like obvious things that had happened or not happened and blame.
(26:53):
But when you talk to all of these different people,
it's like, you know, well, wait a minute, that that
office had one computer at the time, so that these
notes are handwritten and then typed out, And how many
notes are you taking if you're writing something by hand totally?
And what does this game of telephone really look like
even if you're trying your best? What was the training
at the time? It wasn't. So then it was like, okay,
(27:14):
I have to take a step back because it's not
one person's fault. It wasn't like there were a lot
of things that should have gone differently and didn't. But
it made me take a step back and think about
how little you really get from reading an article, and
I just wanted to know more.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Do you have a story like that of something that's
happened where you're just getting involved? Kind of turned turned
things a little bit. That's like that maybe journalistic satisfaction
that you get to have sometimes I don't.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Know if I have a story quite like that where
that where it gets solved a missing person's case.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
I mean that's pretty incredible. Yeah, but certainly, like you know,
we've talked to people that have reached out to Hannah
from just knowing her from the opportunist and said, well,
what about my right? Can you look into this? And
you know, I think that is a cool place to be,
like someone thinks that I care enough to look into
this and like actually do some research. And I think
(28:11):
that that's also a really like great thing about being
able to connect with listeners.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
M Yeah, absolutely, And I mean, like you know, I've
never yeah, I've never solved a case or anything like that.
That's season two, Yeah, that's coming. But you know, just
being able to bring it to like people's attention, to
continue to keep attention on these things as we were
just talking about, I think means a lot. And you
(28:39):
never know what that can do. It's like, you know,
Paysha didn't solve this case, but the fact that there
was so much attention on it, I don't know, it
keeps it fresh in people's minds and you just never know,
like what that could lead to. So that's what I
usually tell people when they're like, I have this, you know, case,
and well, I'm not able to solve it. I'm not
an investigator, but we can certainly tell that story and
(29:02):
then hopefully that will help you connect to other people
or resources to you know, hopefully make some leeway there.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, you guys have that thing that I think that
people who are into true crime, like we are murderinas,
which is this like curiosity about the way humans work
and the way these decisions with people make effects like
everyone's life around them. And it can hear that in
(29:32):
the podcast, This curiosity that you guys have that's so
so pure, and I totally identify with it totally.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
I mean, I think that that so many people who
love true crime feel that way, right, and it makes
me think of Actually this episode of a podcast that
you sent me years ago, it's a criminal episode. We
know you all love criminals as well. Yeah, so good.
And she was interviewing Eryl Morris, you know, he was
talking about crime stories and always just stuck with me.
(30:02):
He talked about like the heart of crime stories is
just humanity, you know, it's and I just agree with
that so wholeheartedly, you know, in all of these stories,
of course there is some incident, some dramatic incident, right,
but like within that there are stories of people surviving
(30:23):
or people seeking justice and the complications of what that
looks like what does that even mean, and how people
hurt each other and how people try to heal and
what that does to an individual person and to a community.
I mean, it is just humanity. It's like how we
all live together, and that is just endlessly compelling.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Yeah, it makes me think of the episode and the Opportunists,
and look, the Opportunist was great, congratulations, your new podcast
is amazing. But you know, I just have the memory
of you talking about the people who invested in the
guys who were claiming that they were going to go
find that this sunken treasure boat. And so it's that
(31:07):
kind of story where it's like, this is not a murder,
this is not you know, one of those kind of stories.
It's it's a scam story that as it went, it
just became more and more heartbreaking as I listened to it.
Of like these people who it's like it's easy to
go like, oh, well you made a mistake or that
was a dumb investment and It's like these guys went
through and just methodically drained the bank accounts of retirees
(31:30):
and like just destroyed these families. And that was just
kind of like, well, too bad for you. And I'm
sure that there are people who like when if they
go through an experience like that, being able to hear
somebody else, be able to say it, and have, you know,
the validity, like be able to give it the gravitas
it deserves of like this is horrible. It should not
be happening. We should have systems set up or how
(31:52):
do you what are the next steps you take when
someone doesn't just you know, rip you off, but like
you lose all your money.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
You think it's gonna be you. Like ever, you know,
we've probably never interviewed someone and been like, oh, I
could see how that happened to them.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
It's like no, that could be all of us, Like yeah, no,
one is like well I kind of expected that to.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Happen, right, So.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
You never think it's going to be you. And I
think there's also this like self exploration that happens where
you're like when you when that feeling creeps in, like
something's not right here, this other part of you is
in survival mode, being like everything's fine, I'm sure it's okay,
it's all gonna come together, and like those two voices
(32:36):
are battling it out in your head until there's this
point of no return. And you know that's not someone
being naive all the time. That's just like life. You
have to trust people sometimes and you know, maybe a
gold bar at the bottom of the ocean sounds far fetched,
but it's not like this random person knocked on someone's
(32:57):
door and said, I know where to find you know,
somen treasure boat. It's like, this is a trusted person
in the community, supported by another trusted person in the community,
and that goes a long way.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
For people, which makes it all the more evil. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Oh, that was a tough one. That was tough.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, it's very satisfying that we get to host a
podcast where there's the potential, where obviously there's the relation
of there's a crime, and then somebody gets to tell
their story, be a survivor, be you know, get their
voice out there. But then that's someone listening at home
who might not have any of that support or any
(33:34):
of that kind of platform gets to relate or have
somewhere to go or a next steps kind of plan.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Yeah, and just feel seen, like, Wow, a version of
that happened to me, and here's someone talking about it
in a way that's not pejorative or demeaning. It's just
like that could be like I'm not, you know, the
only person this has ever happened to. Something's not wrong
with me. Somewhere did something wrong to me? Yeah, and
know that like goes back to even even when I was,
(34:03):
you know, researching that case in Tennessee. It's like this,
this idea that someone feels heard becomes really important in
the work that we're doing. And is I think something
we don't want to lose in our storytelling.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah. I think that's impossible forget you guys to lose.
I think that's just second nature for you.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
It's so cool. It's definitely like the most fun I've
ever had.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
It's great.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
It's exactly what I want to be doing. Yeah, I
love it. It's so exciting.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
It's so I feel like people are going to really
really love this podcast. I just we've everyone that works
here has listened to it. It's just like it's a hit.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
It's a hit.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
It's just so great. Yeah, great, Jo so much.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
We're so excited to be here.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
And you know, you all have supported us so much
to you know, shouting out the show back you know
when we were doing it and always being like just
cheering us on and that we always saw that and
always meant a lot to us. And so you know,
it just feels like a really great place for us
to be. It just feels right, and so are really
happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Does it feel exactly right.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Together? Okay, then you should just sign your life away
right here.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yeah, exactly, Yay, honestly, and I mean, like you know,
this is business, but also we adore you guys.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
We love the work you do.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
We're so proud of the show that you've made and
the fact that we get to put it on our network.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
So thank you so much, thanks for being thank you. Yeah,
thank you so much. Yeah, that's it's the best feeling ever. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
So The Knife launches on March twenty seventh, and new
episodes are up every Thursday. Please listen and don't forget
to go and follow, rate, review, subscribe, support, show up,
and on Instagram and Blue Sky.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
You can find them at The Knife Podcast.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Thanks you guys, Thank you guys so much.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yay, okay, goodbyeye Elvis, do you want to cookie?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
This has been an exactly right production.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Our managing producers Hannah Kyle Creighton.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Our editor is Aristotle Oscevedo.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
This episode was mixed by Leona Scualace.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Our researchers are Maren mcclashan and Ali Elkin.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my Favorite Murder.
Bye Bye
Hosts And Creators
Georgia Hardstark
Karen Kilgariff
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