49 - The Great Guy Law-Time New Years Spectacular

On this year-end legal extravaganza, Karen and Georgia talk to comedian and actual law school graduate Guy Branum about what makes murder murder. Plus more True Crime trading cards!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
If you're gonna do something, don't half asset. Speaking of which,
this is my favorite murder. Did you get that, Stephen?
Are we recording the show?

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Oh my god, Oh my god, welcome to my favorite murder?
End of twenty sixteen episode. This is the end of
this fucking shit pole of a year. Now, if you
had a great year, congrateate fucking relations?

Speaker 1 (00:41):
How did you do it? Press stop and go have
fun with your and god fuck yourself fun our new musical. Yeah,
oh my god. Speaking of did you hear the song
that a techno song that a dude made? What of
our pot You haven't heard this? Oh my god? Of
our podcast? Hold okay, hold on. I feel so such guilt.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
For the amount of things people do and make and
whatever that I'm always like, oh I missed that three
months ago.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Well you're gonna die because this is the best thing
that's ever happened.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
You're ready for this?

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yes, you all ready for this? Done done. This is
from Alex Alex J Squire on Twitter. Oh that name
sounds familiar to me, and it's not working. Why isn't
it working? There's just a photo of his cat and
you press play. This isn't fucking and okay.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
John Wayne, John Wayne book.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
A live episode, John Wayne? Who God is fucking John.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
What?

Speaker 1 (02:02):
John? Oh my god, I won't even miss that one.
I can't stop smiling. No, that's are you saying? Who?
That's announcing? You announcing the Chicago Live show? Who you're doing?
And I and you go, John, and I go. Yeah,
it just goes and goes like that. That is thank you.
Alex J. Squier.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Oh my god, talented motherfucker. Are you friends with diplow?
Because that was incredible.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
It's the new hit.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
You're hearing a very familiar laught. We can't ignore you.
Notice a lot of you know and love.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
We actually have in our wrap down twenty sixteen Holiday Spectacle,
Anything Goes and who the fuck knows? Our friend and
our guest, mister Guy Brandon, Hello.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Good to be here. So excited. I want that track
so bad. I have a dance track from the Eight Days.
It is Margaret Thatcher's speeches. No, an acid dance song. No,
Oh my god, I love this so much. You guys
are also astoundingly lucky with your fians. Oh, for fuck's sake,
like you're like.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Your people say it and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
but like.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
It's crazy, it's weird, it's crazy, to.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
Which their response to all of this is she does
described a brutal murder. I need to make this a project.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yes, well, actually I have something to surprise you with,
Karen what more.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yes, because you know me hearing my voice with techno
music behind it is like that made twenty seventeen for
me totally.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
So I mean to fuck this year's a fucking bus.
You can carry it on in next year, that's right. Okay.
So I got a package in my po box and
it just said it was to me. So I opened
it and I'm sorry and I don't worry better. That
made me cray, like literally almost made me cry. I
was really depressed today and then I read it and
it made me feel better. It's basically this girl who's like,
thank you guys so much. I went to Chicago show.

(03:53):
I also told my mom now secretly listens to the
podcast and she's a she's lives in Alabama and she's
a quote rich white Republican Southern Baptist mother and it's
a closet fan and she can't tell anyone about it. Yes,
what's her name? And the girl found out that we
were doing Chicago and she said, I immediately bought my
mom plane ticket to Chicago ago and it was Chelsea

(04:15):
why and look what she gave us openness? Well, oh,
she works at a company. She works at like a
beauty product company, and she sent us a whole line
of sweet honesty.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Oh my god, Oh my god? Is this the original?
Where is this how they market it?

Speaker 1 (04:36):
I think it's still around those Sweet Honesty from the
Live Show seventies, I know, but I've on Sweet Honesty.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, no, is that a real thing? It's real.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
That's why that girl happened. It was this thing she had.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Basically it was like, you know, loves Baby Soft perfume
from the seventies, like if you had a T shirt
of that.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
This was Avon's version, which was sweet honesty. Let me
see if I can find her.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
And one of these looks like, oh my god, wait
this this is what they sell now because this looks.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Like remember deodorant? Yes, no old deodorant.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
It looks like theodorant from the seventies. It's this is
I mean, this is the podcast that made me try
to figure out how my mom could listen to podcast
she loves true crime so much.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
We got to get Debbie on board. I don't know
how we're gonna do it.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
Remember when you got to buy your parents an iPod
to get them like download a bunch of fucking ship
for them.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
Drawer she put in a drawer. I honestly feel like
I need to go Greatest Hits and burn some CDs
for her.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
I think that you should. That is the way that
CDs is easier.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
It's not a lot of having to touch things, plug things.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
In the same time, burned some CDs for Debbie at
the same time, though, my dad figured out how to
listen to podcasts and that was a mistake. I'm trying
to find Chelsea's Twitter because I want to give her
I'm Marty.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
My dad figured out how to listen to podcasts and
then decided this one wasn't for him. Oh my sun,
It's okay.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
He's more of a nervous guy like I just want
to listen to men time. I love it. Yeah, women
are so boring. Can I spray some sweet honest aps?

Speaker 2 (06:14):
You et it?

Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Okay, you had a huffet. Actually I got it.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
My Grandma's avon lady showing off was one of the
most exciting things that could happen.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
It just makes her think of Edward scissorhands. Yeah right,
that was a real thing. I remember doing. What was
it wasn't It wasn't Avon, but there was another one
that was like that, or maybe it was Avon. We
went to a party of it at my aunt Jean's
house one time, and the way this lady was explaining
how you had to buy all of this product because

(06:45):
if you used a bunch of different brands on your
face together, it was like chemical warfare on your face.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
I guess bullshit.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
I've ever I was twelve years old sitting at the
table going bullshit or everyone would have their face burned by.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Now twelve year old Karen was like, she just call
you out on your ship and like, amazing sales. It's smart,
it's smart wording. It was very effective.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
It wasn't Jaffra, but it was like one of those
brands where it was kind of like it's a free
standing beauty, uh you know, kind of slightly pyramid scheme.

Speaker 3 (07:17):
A number of women from my high school who've ended
up in multi level marketing.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Project Yeah, okay. Her name is Chelsea Young and she's
on Twitter is Chelsea and then l E E A
U And she's a fucking she's from Naperville Neighborville, Illinois.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, she's where bigle Oden crypts from.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Oh oh my god, is it? No?

Speaker 2 (07:38):
No, it's good, but I just literally inhaled it. She
said that the oh that's like baby pos powder. It
smells like baby powder.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
It's like a diaper, it smells like it's adorable fifteen
year olds.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
It smells like a teenage baby, which is what everybody wants.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Is what the men are attracted to, normal heterosexual manner
attracted too. And she also said that during the during
the live show, her friend that they were with how
to go outside, she was sick with the flu, had
to go outside and barf in the parking lot, but
came back in and fucking stuck it out. Yes, like
she was like we were fucking And she sent me
a photo of her of them, and she's with the

(08:15):
flu of Budweiser Tall Boys.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Because I've had that same sickness several times in my life.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Okay, guy is gonna a lot, is gonna law us?
Oh yeah, that's so that's what brought here on those pretenses.
That's right.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
So like you guys, you guys talk about law things
a lot like you talk about murder. You talk about murder.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
We talk about them with a lot of confidence, even
though we fucking don't know anything. It's true. It's what's theorizing.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Do you guys have any idea what the difference between
first and second agree murder is intent one? Oh?

Speaker 1 (08:49):
Okay, care, I don't do them.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
Sorry, You're right. There is intent level it is basically
so like first murder requires premeditation, right, but that isn't
really planning. That's mostly just like being in a right
enough mind to be like even for a moment like
I want to kill.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
This person and then doing it like immediately after.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, I mean you you do need to like both
have the men's ray and the act happened at the
same time. I don't know that state of mine in
state of mind, so I.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Thought, was your period? Sound like real nasty period?

Speaker 3 (09:28):
So the second second degree murder is horrible. Second degree
murder is either a like your passions were raised by
Like the paradigm is you see your wife fucking somebody
else and you either kill him or her, or like

(09:50):
the moment in the moment in the moment, or like
you you're like somebody starts a fight with you and
they don't use deadly force. You are trying to defend
yourself and escalate, so you and you kill them. Those
are secondary murder things, but Secondargrea, murder is used for
like the worst things like that dude on Allen or

(10:11):
not on Islan?

Speaker 1 (10:11):
What was the Jenny Jones Jenny Jones that one? Yes?

Speaker 3 (10:16):
Or the guy who killed Harvey Milk.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
I almost don't, Dan Brown, don't talk about it. Almost
did that one?

Speaker 3 (10:23):
Okay, No, I'm gonna talk about it. It's really good.
But it was. He basically said, like I was so
freaked out by being around gay people and I had
eaten so many drinks people that I wasn't in a
right state of mind and.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
So and like so like, Okay, he got fired and
he got pissed off and came back.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
It So isn't that premeditation, though, I mean, it all
depends on what the jury believes. And the thing is
is like the jury is so willing when it comes
to like a gig guy hit on me and then
I killed him, means you're doing six years instead of
like I decided to kill some gay guy, which is
like fifteen to life.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Wow, you know, like if they can, if they can
empathize with you.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yes, and so like like second degree murder is this
terrible situation where like it's completely screwed over from women
because in the like seventies, they tried to sell this
idea of battered wife syndrome. The thing is that like
burning bed right, burning bed?

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, what's up?

Speaker 2 (11:20):
The fair Faucet made for TV movie called Burning Beds
Story based on a real story this woman was so
terribly abused. I remember watching it with my mom and
at one point, I mean they it was incredibly graphic
of basically showing what domestic violence really looks like, and
it's incredibly intense. But it was on at like eight
o'clock at night on ABC or whatever, and I remember
at one point my mom goes, I think you should

(11:42):
go to bed you did it, and of course not.
I was just like out of my way, lady, like
standing closer to the TV. But it was basically to
try to show people this whole thing of like, yeah,
knock your wife around it shut her.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Up, because it's like in my mind when I was
a kid, it was like, it's romantic because he loves
you so much and it's so passionate, and you must
just have this relationship. And then you see the reality
of it and you're like, this is just brutal, fucking
it's lullying and an awfulness.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Cracking someone across the mouth because she's lippy is not
a fun thing to say to your friends in the bar,
when actually it's a horrible pattern because you were abused,
and once it starts, it can't stop because you're in
this like in a rage fit and you beat a
person up like they're a man.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
And then if you're you when you're older and you're
in a good relationship, and the thought of like Vince,
when we get in a fight, which happens him just
fucking smacking me because he got like that would be
that would change my world. And the fact that this
is a normal thing for people bothers me so much.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
But the thing is, what's so fascinating is it like
really quick?

Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yes, so so at night she burnt his bed while
he was in it. Then she got off right when
she went to that's a horriboy.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
But the thing is like the how we learned it
in law school, like basically is the terrible thing is
for like second degree murder, it is generally a dude
grab a gun right there, or it has to be
sort of like within the same window of time that
his second degree murder sort of like active passion happens.
But women who've been beaten don't do that. They stew

(13:12):
and then three weeks later, they three years and they
just finally like break and like shoot him or burn
the better or whatever. And like so uniformly battered wife
syndrome was rejected by the courts as a thing, but like.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
It's it's almost like I feel like it's even worse
because they're going through years and years of constant torture
and having their minds sucked with because they never know
how if someone's going to react, and so they're not
even in the right mind, you know, when they're planning
it well beforehand.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
The thing that's so creepy about all of this is
that so many of these ideas were built in the
sixteen hundreds in England, when like things that were very
immediately understood, but the notion of sort of like a
long simmering like psychological torture nobody understood because they died
when they were thirty four.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Men well, and also that men so had the mic
that it was like, well, they would have to understand
how a woman would interpret abuse and approach it as
opposed to how it would feel or how they would
react to it, which they would be like, well, that's
not how it's done as opposed to that's not how
maybe men do it or how to the individual it was.

Speaker 3 (14:24):
Being your wife is legal, like being your wife is
in the Bible.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, in the Bible.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Can I say this really quick, just so everyone knows,
Guy Brandham is a lawyer.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
The reason that we're having I'm.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Talking to some credential we know all this is that
you are legally a lawyer.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
I graduated from the University of Minnesota Law School in
two thousand and one. It's amazing, which means I am
an expert on the law of murder and other things
in the same way that Karen and Georgia are experts.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Know, in a much better way. No, no, wait, finish that.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
So I already done this. I haven't done this in
fifteen years. So this is basically just what I remember.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
Oh good, got good?

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Like from that, let's hop on over to murder's best
buddy rape and understand that like in in common law,
in sort of like the origin of our entire legal system.
It's a horrible construction of this situation where it has

(15:20):
to be a violent act, it has to be against
someone other than your wife, like that, you know, the
old school laws, and there have been many laws that
tried to sort of like update things.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
I hate, like that intimidation, you know, and a woman
going along with things to not get murdered shows that she,
you know, like she didn't fight, so it wasn't really right,
you know, like that kind of thing where her pants
would have been hard to take off, so she must
have been consenting.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
So basically, one interesting thing that you guys like comes
up on the show a lot is in some states
you still have rape laws that have been updated, but
in other states there was this thing in the few
he's called the Model Penal Code where they sort of
tried to make the law reflect the world that we're
living now a little bit more. And so that's what
the difference between like first degree, second degree and third

(16:10):
degree sexual assault are. And these are very serious issues
and it's weird to hear a man talk about them.
And I'm sorry. I had the creepiest krim law professor
who was like a man in his sixties, and he
was constantly saying things that you were like, don't say
it like that, don't stop.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
Like he was wrong before.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
Can I tell you? Can I tell you the two
worst of them?

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yes, always, Yes, he's our number one fans.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
There's no rape by swindle, which is essentially saying if
you promise to pay a prostitute and then at the
end you're like, Nope, that's not rape, which is like
classic common law in many states have sort of like
figured stuff like that out. And then the other one

(16:58):
was don't do the voice again, I'm sorry. No, I
love it for when it comes to sexual violence and age,
there comes a point where mental state doesn't matter if
you did it. So like, basically, you can't say but
she looked eighteen. Oh, but you cannot say but she
looked thirteen, which was the most chilling thing to hear.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
I don't understand. So wait, so you couldn't say that
she looked of age, and so you didn't know, and
so it's not statute very right.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
One thing I should be saying is this man was
a leading rape expert, like he was this bold, like.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Sixties, he's more ways than once sixty five year old slander.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
Slander white guy who went to Harvard was like had
written like several books about it, but was talking about
it this way. And it was just like, no, that's
what's wrong with the law is all of these laws
were written by that guy.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yeah, we talk about fucking statute. I mean what comes
up and Karen's always like to stop it. But statute limitations.
It's just like my biggest and like anything but murder
has statute limitations.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
He was like yes, and like that comes to an
idea of like after a certain period of time, you
like you it's after you find out that the injury occurred,
does the statute of limitations?

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Okay, twenty years later you can be like I got
raped and there wouldn't have passed the statute of limitation.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
Well, the thing is you knew for all of that time.
But if it was something that like you didn't know
that something had been stolen from you, or you know,
if there was a body and it was never reported
and like we found the body and okay, related to nothing,
then you have like three or five or however, many years.

(18:47):
I guess it's murder, so that would does happen.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, It's just I feel like someday we're all going
to be like, the fuck was that about? Like kidnapping?
I don't know. Oh, I have a question for you
that I've always wondered, like about my off of what
I would do is if you had to go to
trial for something big, Let's say, would you want a
jury or would you just want a judge?

Speaker 3 (19:07):
First of all, do you guys understand what the difference
between those two things are?

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Not really the amount of people robes. Yes, one is
a jury and one is a judge.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
So the thing is, the idea is is that in
all situations you have a finder of law and a
finder of fact. So like a jury, the finder of
law is always a judge because they're official and they
know what the law is. And finder of fact you
can either have it be a judge or you can
have it be a jury. And like, the horrible thing

(19:37):
about having gone to law school is that I kind
of would trust a judge as a finder of fact more.
But the thing is, in a criminal case, you can't
get a judge as a finder of fact. Really, Yeah, well,
can you have a right to a jury trial? Right?
So I mean, could you waive one? See this is
how much I don't remember this stuff. And the thing is,
I mean you personally act well, I know. The thing

(19:58):
is is that I no, I guess I would go
with a jury because the thing is is, if I
had done it, a jury is easier to.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
Like, yeah, you know, confuse about stuff like that totally.

Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah. And you know, there's the wonderful thing that we
have this presumption of innocence and we have a thing
against double jeopardy, which means, you know, if you just
get them to even just mistrial three times, then you're off.
Like one of the things that's so interesting about listening
to your podcast is this strong presumption of innocence, which
is a thing I love. Does lead to a lot

(20:32):
of people getting off who we then later find out
we're horrible people.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
Yeah, I mean, it's so shitty because it's like there's
double jeopardy. But like yet, just because this person was
terrible and molested children doesn't mean he killed this other kid. Yeah,
but they but it's still shouldn't they.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
Oh, there's a great thing that circumstantial evidence is evidence
like have you guys ever talked to like I guess
you guys do with like Dana and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, there's a lot of cases that we talked about
that are just trying to circumstantial events.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah. Sure, And you do have that thing of is
it beyond a reasonable doubt, which is like kind of
good because it means you need a lot of circumstantial effidence.
But there's also the weird thing of like it is
just these twelve people kind of deciding it, which means
that like, jury instructions are always the most important thing.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
Jury instructions are like a judge laying out what are
the like five clean questions that you need to ask
to figure out whether this was the person who committed
the murder?

Speaker 2 (21:29):
And do they do that when everything is done, before
they go to start to decide, or at the beginning,
before the case is presented.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Okay, So basically at the end of the trial, both
sides will submit a set of jury instructions these are
the ones that we want them to be, and then
judge will basically between the two of those sort of
like synthesize jury instructions that he feels or she feels best,

(22:00):
sort of like reflect the law as it exists and
then submit those to the jury.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
That would be great and wonderful if it wasn't for
the fact that the prosecutors are doing anything in their means,
including makeup, you know, false stories to get their client off.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
You mean defense attorneys.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
No prosecute the prosecution. I guess both. You say get
clients off, I mean sorry, get their to either. Okay, yeah,
the defense needs the clients office, but also the prosecution
to get this person charged.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
And I think is that in my head, I'm always like,
like the prosecution has such a better position because like
before anything else, a DA gets to say, is this
person clearly not guilty? Like a DA can totally just
say I'm not going to prosecute them, and like they
kind of have the oparatus, the apparatus of the state

(22:54):
behind them. And defense attorneys when it's not people versus O. J.
Simpson like so much of the time are like they're
worst paid for everything except for white collar crimes. They
are like worst paid and they have like worse support
and everything. And I do have more sympathy than I
probably should for defense attorneys who are like trying to

(23:21):
like get somebody off through technicalities. Like let's never forget
that in the late nineteen seventies, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was
going to the South to people who had been convicted
convicted by all male juries and had death sentences and
stuff and saying, let's reconsider his sentence because there were

(23:42):
no women on this jury. That's why you guys have
to serve jury duty now, because Ruth Bader Ginsburg made
you equal. But in the process kind of got some
assholes like a second chance even though they did what they.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
Were In my mind, my fucking I might be fucking
putting my foot in my mouth, but I'm more dubious
of the prosecution than I am at the defense.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
Yeah, I mean, but it is. But also defense have
so much, so much pushing them to like fight for technicalities, Yeah,
where like I just feel.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
Like because they're kind of there to just go, they
cut down to the bare bones of like, look, this
guy's this, and he's gonna look guilty.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
How do I how do I cut.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Down on how guilty he looks and just get the
lowest number that we could possibly get.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
And the thing is is, like you do I mean,
it is like defense attorneys like, shouldn't they all be
plea bargaining? Like I just feel like good attorneys in
any situation really should be coming to some sort of
agreement beforehand, because going to a trial is just chaos.
You don't know what those people on that jury are

(24:51):
going to say.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
It's crazy, it's crazy crazy. Please, let's never be in
that position. Hys, let's store our very best.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Do you want going to answer the question from last week?
The key key question for one? Yes?

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (25:05):
What was do we repeat the question for everyone?

Speaker 3 (25:08):
Well, it's your question, Okay.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
My question was I said life imprisonment. A sentence of
life imprisonment, isn't life in prison? Right?

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Well? It came up first, not to be argumentative. Yeah,
the first thing you said was life in prison means
ten years? Well, yeah, which is when I said you're
full of shit. I meant I didn't mean ten years exactly,
but yes, I meant like that was That's how we
started talking about it where we're like and then I
was like.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
What the fuck is going on?

Speaker 3 (25:32):
In the nineteen seventies? Georgia comes close to being true?

Speaker 1 (25:36):
Like really, but I love it?

Speaker 3 (25:39):
No, that means my place, it's not remotely true anymore,
but it is so like basically, so you have either
giving somebody a number of years, and sometimes you get
the ridiculous number of years and you're like, why are
they putting this person in prison for five hundred and
seventy two years? And that is because they have committed
a bunch of crimes of a sort that a life

(26:02):
imprisonment is not an option, and they're trying to put
the person in prison. And then there's regular life in prison,
and life in prison without parole, and regular life in prison.
And like the seventies, it used to be that like
after as little as like four or five years, you
could be up for parole.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Which why use the word life, right, that's like a
time in prison.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
It's ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
It's because it's like a statement that means nothing, means nothing.
That's so confusing.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
So what happened is because people kept getting.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
Off and going no one knew it, right.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
Killing some more people. Yes, that you started getting these
laws that were called truth and sentencing laws. It basically said,
and I think a majority of states have passed them,
and a lot of states now and the federal government
have the option of life imprisonment. Without parole, but the
thing of saying that you have to serve at least
eighty five percent of your sentence and so for life

(26:57):
in prisonment, creating a certain like you can't be under
consideration for parole until like fifteen years.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, but that's still like if you get life in
prison and then you and then with the possibility of
parole in twenty years, and so then you get you know,
fifteen years or whatever eighty five percent of twenty is,
then then that's you get You've spent sixteen years in
prison with the stal murder and getting and getting life.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
Like the story of this kind is supposed to be
that like, but this guy was being a model prisoner, right,
being so great. And there's also this thing of like
good behavior time, where like the person in charge of
the prison can like give like credit time to you
because you've been like behaving well. But that is that

(27:45):
thing of like is prison reflective of how you're going
to behave in real life?

Speaker 1 (27:50):
I mean, of course not.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
And this is now we're getting back into the Mary
Vincent case. Yeah, where that's what happened to the man
who attacked her and viciously named her where he was
so good in prison. That for I can't remember his
first crime, whatever it was. It was probably murdering a
woman or something. They spent four years in jail and
then got out almost kill her.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
But let's talk about the awesome and cool ways that
you can punish people from being assholes. Not up?

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Okay, Okay, So this is right up.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
Your George and I are getting more champagne in us.
So this conversation, let's hope, is getting smoother.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
Let's do it.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
Okay, So let's first of all, let's just go back
to what does it take to make a murder? What
do you think it takes to make a murder? We
already talked about.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
In dark intent and knife.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Oh you make your fucking joke about the dark but
let me tell you for burglary and arson, yeah, common law,
they had to happen at night, if you just broke
into someone's house.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Does that mean that common law?

Speaker 3 (28:52):
Common law means the way that like the law originated
in England way way back when, but was still the
valid law in the United States until like in places
the twentieth century, chans are stupid. They had a chain
ship because we were stupid. But like like in the
same kind of olden times where you could not legally

(29:15):
be considered to have raped your wife. If you said
somebody's house on fire in the daytime, you were fine.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
That got the best And what they said it was
a mistake or something.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
Or like they just the thing is is that all
of this, you weren't being sneaky all of it.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yes, it was just like, well, the dude who owned
the house really should have been watching it better, now,
shouldn't It.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Was an asshole.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
No, that's right. And so though that's all the law
that just exists without us doing any work about it.
And then eventually, like state legislatures had to come along
and be like, well we should do something about this
because they keep stealing during the daytime.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
And everyone's like, but it's tradition and this is how
they did it.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
But there's lights at night now they know that. It's
nineteen eighty four.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
Okay, what else do you need, Like, what else do
you need from murder?

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Oh? Intent?

Speaker 3 (30:02):
So we said intense you can steal.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
My answer, did you say intense? Intense because it kills somebody? Okay,
that's another thing. Okay, this is something we talk about
a lot. Is I think it's fucking insane that attempted
murder isn't try it as murder.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
Okay, that's what we're getting towards. I was just listening
to an episode where you were ranting about that, and
so I was, I don't rant, so I was talking
about that.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
That's hilarious.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
So basically, there are there are three kinds of crimes
where you don't have to do the act. So the
thing is is that, like, the thing that makes murder
murder is that you commit an act, a violent act
that deprives someone of their life, right, And the magic

(30:49):
is the difference between depriving someone of their life and
not is huge. I could punch the shit out of Stephen, right, no, no,
and if he like survived, then that would just be battery, yeah,
and assault, and I would go to jail for like
six months.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
Is that because they can't prove your intent or even if.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
He was no, Like, the thing is it requires the
same intent. Intent doesn't mean I want to kill Stephen.
If I the exact same punch, yeah, it's just like
fuck that dude. Yeah punch and he's still alive afterwards,
it's battery and maybe go to jail for like three
to six months or something the exact same punch if like,

(31:32):
you know, it's they call it the was.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
It glass Stevens syndrome, delicate Stephen syndrome, under delicate Stephen syndrome.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
And he goes down and he's dead. I go to
jail for fifteen years to life. Yeah, like it is
just just.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Because Stephen's face couldn't take it, Yes.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
It is. It is just that much of a difference.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Just because he loves cats, just because mustache wouldn't reflect
the fucking hunch.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
And it's a little bit crazy. And an attempted murder
basically just comes down to, like attempted murder is something
you just kind of like tack on top of the
fact that it was fundamentally just a battery.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Well okay, but what did you shoot someone in the
head and they survive or if you fucking stab someone
and leave them for dead and they survive.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
Well, I mean, the thing is is that it is
the interesting you have to like sust into a person's
head that it was actual attempted murder as opposed to
just like a battery, and they can probably sue you
for a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
Point where you put something killy in someone's body. They fuck,
it's fucking's okay, you're murdering.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
Aggravated battery you said, I mean this is it? Putting
something killy is actually a legal concept, And it's like
the difference between first degree sexual assault and second degree
sexual assault in a lot of states, what is did
you use a killie? Did you use a chillie thing? Well, wow,
you were raping her or like in some cases the

(32:52):
difference is between like intercourse and just sort of like
you know.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Force sexual assaults.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
When the person all of the other things that when
consensual are fun but not sex.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
You say that we're going to get in trouble for
so let's say, okay, yes, it's terrible, and what you
just said, no I think I agree. No, no, no, no,
I just mean like explaining what the difference is is
going to piss someone off because it's such a fucking
it's so okay. Yes, anyways, we're just talking about the
facts of what it is.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
It's not to the point is is that my intent
doesn't matter, Like my specific intent to kill doesn't matter
nearly as much as what happens to Stephen. And so
with attempted murder, it is just the fact that at
the end of the day, Stephen's alive, can go to
law school one day. Maybe, you know, it's.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
Just like really makes something of himself. Finally, will two
other incoate crimes? That is, they're not complete, there's no,
there's not all. There is an act in them, but
not all of the act, Like the all of the
act would mean end up dead.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
Yes, okay, there called solicitation and conspiracy.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
I like it.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
What do you think those things are selling?

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Is solicitations?

Speaker 3 (34:07):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (34:08):
Selling your publicitation? I think is trying to get someone
to kill someone else. Yes, yeah, dude, you're like it's
like five and zero right, It's almost like I just
watched TV all day and read fucking murders all night,
which I do.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
The thing about solicitation that's wonderful is so all you
need is the intent to want that crime to occur
and an act to get somebody else to do it,
and you are at that point guilty. Like the crime
that comes or the sentence that comes with solicitation is
the same as murder, is completely the same as murder.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
If you accidentally ask like an undercover cop to kill
your husband, it's like you killed your husband.

Speaker 3 (34:44):
But what do you mean about accidentally like you undercover cop? Okay,
the undercover cop was the accident you.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
Tripped upon a fucking uniform, like you fell down into
a CoP's here.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
But the thing is, if you said like, god, I
love it, events weren't around tomorrow. You didn't have intent
at that time. So but if you went to an
undercover cop and it was like, look, Vince has been
the worst, and you like wanted it and meant it,
then yes, you're going to jail for exactly as much
as if you had attempted to murder Vince.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yes, you're an has her hand I have my hand up?
You should?

Speaker 3 (35:19):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (35:20):
So does that mean that when you catch a person
on tape, like if someone calls someone that's it's over
like la. It always seems like in you know, forensic
files in twenty twenty, it's like the second you make
that deal on a phone call.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
So the act. So in a murder, the act is
putting the stabby thing in. Yeah, But in solicitation, the
act is just the call. And the thing is is
at that moment it's enough and you are you are
an attempted murderer. And if the other person did end
up murdering the person, you're a murderer at that point
in time.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Oh, you're the murderer, even if you didn't com The
thing is is.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
You're guilty of solicitation of murder, which carries the same
punishment as murder. Interesting, Now, what do you think conspiracy is?

Speaker 1 (36:06):
Conspiracy to commit murder is planning it, but without.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
A hitman, none of these were. Like, the thing is
is if like if you if you knew that Karen
was going to try to it.

Speaker 1 (36:25):
Was getting hurt in this podcast, not in real life.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
If you knew that Karen was going to try to
kill me and you helped her planet and figure it out,
and basically sort of like conversations that are like in
the direction of that happening, That conversation is enough that
when Karen kills me, you are all guilty of conspiracy
of murder.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
And I can say that, well, I thought she was kidding.
I didn't think she was serious.

Speaker 3 (36:49):
And it's for a jury to decide. The thing is
is me it is for the judge to say if
she thought she was kidding, legitimately, that's not conspiracy for murder,
and it's the jury. It's not a question of admissibility.
It is a question of just like legally, that's a
mistake that absolves you of your men's rea, your mind state,

(37:11):
you and so, but it's for the jury to be
like to look Georgia Hardstock in the eye and be like,
she bullshitting us, And if they think that you're not bullshitting,
then you are guilty of the same punishment murder.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
Okay, I'm my hand upgun because that okay, So that
is this thing that's now coming up all the time
where uh, people are only now realizing that everybody doesn't
react the same way. So if they look someone in
the eye in the courtroom, there's a lot of these
crime to remembers.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
Where it's like she was icy cold, and.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
You know, how dare a mother of two be this way?
Therefore she's guilty. She burst into tears, Yeah, she did
not act like a woman quote unquote, and so she's
guilty or whatever. So it's that thing where there people
are now realizing if a person does act the way
you have imagined a person under stress would act, or
a person that was sad or guilty or you know,

(38:07):
regretful or anything, that's like all that projection, but instead
it's like every individual deals with that.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
And don't you like when I watch confession or when
I watch interview or what's it called when you talk
to a perpetrator?

Speaker 3 (38:22):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (38:22):
Invest Uh you mean in court? No, in like the
police room, interrogation, interrogation, thank you. I'm like trying to
study that person and every single thing they say, but
you just can't fucking know. No, they never look guilty
or innocent in a dress.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
My friend Krishiker is obsessed with if he's ever anywhere
remotely near a murder, then they're going to automatically convict
him of it because he's not going to react the
way that he's supposed to react. That's right, He's going
to be chilly and all that. One of the things
that's interesting is that the idea of how a person

(38:58):
would behave is a legal an interesting legal standard of
how would a reasonable person act. So the thing is is,
let's say I was walking much larger than Georgia. I
was walking towards her menacingly. She became terrified and thought

(39:18):
I was going to try to kill her, and she
bludgeoned me with the Amy suorus Crafts book that we
just had the question for like the jury is a
did she legitimately think I was going to use deadly
force against her? And be would a reasonable person have
thought I was going to use deadly force against her?

(39:40):
And that question of how does a reason how would
a reasonable person react is always so problematic, as we
saw with like Trayvon Martin and so many situations where like,
we can put our minds into the head of you know, uh,
you know, white dude, but we can't put our heads
into the mind of like black teenager.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
So my rule of pepper spray first and apologize later
is probably illegal.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
No, that's kind of fine because it's non deadly force,
a non deadly force. You know. The wonderful thing about
pepper spray is the difference between deadly force and non
deadly force is huge. And if somebody is using non
deadly force against like, if somebody is not trying to
kill you, right and you use and you use any

(40:30):
level of non deadly force to fine, that is self decess.
That is perfectly good self defense. The thing is is
you need the other guy, the bad guy to be
attempting to could kill you for you.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
Kill or like for you's sexually anything. You don't know what,
you don't know.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
How it's I mean, the terrible thing about the operation
of the law as it exists right now is that
it does kind of require that he or she be
trying to could kill you. For you to cook, I
could kill them and if it The thing is is
that if presumably, if if somebody was coming at you
to sexually assault you and was being very physically intimidating

(41:09):
you understanding that as being deadly forced and sort of
understanding if I resist him enough, this dude's gonna kill me.
That's that's understandable. Yeah. The other situation where you're allowed
to use deadly force even if they're not using deadly force.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Is in your home, right, Yeah, some states don't.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Yes, it does very stafe by state. It does very
stafe by state, but generally there you know, there is
a duty to retreat in a lot of situations, but
you're who but like, if somebody is coming at you
and you have a way of getting away from there.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
You have to you have the duty to retreat.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
I mean, the thing is is that, like, if they're
using deadly force against you, self defense is fine, but like,
if you have a clear way out, use your clear
way out. But nobody's expecting you to retreat from your
home like you get to maintain your home.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
Okay, interesting, that's good to know. Yeah, fucking hit hide
knives everywhere. That just reminded me of just a quick
anecdote to it. So it's getting heavy.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
Well, this is just an interesting thing of like being
in the home. And also we were talking earlier about
growing up in the country. My old roommate Maleva, grew
up in a town called Auburn, which is like twenty
minutes north of Sacramento. Beautiful and just a gorgeous, gorgeous
area in the old gold the gold Rush country, and

(42:33):
red a.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Woody kind of thing. Not red woody because that's close
to the ocean. This is more.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
But it's very foresty and hilly and just a lot
of houses. Every house is five miles away from the
other house. No, there's no such thing as real neighbor.
I don't think I've ever.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
Not shared a wall. Oh yeah, that scares me. This
might really make you uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Because so one night and they all grew up like that,
And my friend Leva told me the story that she
one of her friends.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
It was was home.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
As a teenager and got up to go to the
bathroom inll the mill of the night and her parents
were like away for the weekend, and she stepped into
the dark hallway and there was a man standing at
the other end of the hallway. So she just started
making the weirdest noise that she possibly could. Yes, like
because she just was like it was just an instantaneous

(43:22):
decision where she's like totally alone wherever the gun is,
she's nowhere.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Near it, blah blah blah whatever.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
So she just started like being crazy creepy, and it
freaked this guy out and he.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Ran out of the house.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
Yeah, so smart.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
Isn't that amazing? So smart? Because I am so I
have this big fear that I'm going to get attacked
one day, And you know, when you can't you're so
freaked out, you can't scream. Yes to not have a
lot in dreams, but it actually happens when you just
try to scream and your voice is gongas you're so scared. Yes, Like,
I'm so terrified that that's going to happen. Whenever I
read a murder story where that woman just starts screaming,
I'm so impressed. By that right. I think those instincts

(43:59):
are just like to do that, it's so impressive, it's.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Crazy, and I think it was it was her following
her instinct. And it's also like when Maleva made the
noise for me, I was like, stop making that.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
It's really weird, guttural.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
It was almost like it being an animal, but it
was almost like she's like, I'm an animal that might
attack you. And chances are, when you think about stuff
like that, there's probably a drug addict, like a local
drug addict, that was just trying to get something he
could sell for money for drugs, and so he's just like,
I'll just break into this dark house and I'll get
this thing and get out. So he's probably high anyway,
and then seeing some weird thing at the end of

(44:32):
the hallway making that noise, like he probably stopped burgling.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
I like to think having.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
The peace of mind when you're in like probably the
most scared situation you're ever going to be in, to
play on the other person's sense of fear. It's just
so possessed.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
It's a very good idea. How can we what are
other ways we can do that? Well?

Speaker 2 (44:52):
Like sometimes when I walk the dogs, and I'm scared
at night because I'm walking them in the dark, and
I'll like pass a house and then look into the
window and I can see people, and then I'm like, oh, oh,
maybe I'm the creep Like I always think the creeps
behind me, but I.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
Could be the creepy. I'm sorry. If they're not closing
their fucking blinds, then they're they're asking for it, right.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
But like, all it takes is the difference of being
a girl walking a dog is like I just step
behind this tree, and now I'm the.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
Weirdo or the person across the street seas you standing
behind a tree looking in a window. Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
On a slightly related no, yes, yes, wagg you're a
gay guy walking down the street at night and a
woman starts to walk faster or any of the reactions
are the most normal reaction to a man walking behind
you in that way. It's so funny because I've talked
about this with the inclination to sometimes people I know

(45:48):
have started to pretend to have a phone call so
that they can I see it have gay voice.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Oh my, just yell, I'm gay.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
I mean I most frequently will start singing, oh hot,
to just be like don't worry. Yea.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
Yeah, I thought you're gonna say, take the time to
criticize her hair.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
And then she knows she is not in any day.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
I think, Okay, I have I have literally been in
this situation where I giggled at something and a woman's
physical behavior on a street was just like oh on sign.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
Yeah, it was like, actually, sir, can you walk me
to my car? Do you think? I always think like
if I acknowledge someone and smile at them and say
hello or whatever, that it's I'm letting them know that
I am aware of my surroundings. And so I'll stop
and get my phone out and let the person pass
me and say hello to them, and like not yes,

(46:54):
can I just say this? I just was.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
Did I tell you about that book that I got?
And it's called like this spot way of like shoot,
I need to remember the correction.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
That's so cute. Oh shoot.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
It's called like he was basically a CIA agent and
he it's a book. It's like a total plane read
that I read where it's just a list of ways
to stay safe.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Oh my god, I need it. Yeah, I'll give it
to you. It's really really good.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
But I basically skipped to the whole thing was like
an environmental awareness, and he's like, I would throw everyone's
phone away if I could, because people go into this
thing where they think because this thing is has a
priority and they're so interested in it that the world
they're shutting out is shutting them out, when actually it
makes you a target when you are clearly like being

(47:42):
mesmerized by this thing in your hand and you don't
have environmental awareness. So like when you're you have to
you don't have to do anything, but when you're walking
down the street, the best thing to do is be
looking around, be making icons confidently, making eye contact with
Apple confidently, and just being an also being able to
look at a person being like I see you there.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah, like I have.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
A phone in my hand that I can do something with,
but also I see you there, and like, are you
gonna come at me? Is a way better approach because
that's you're basically it's kind of like alpha dogging and
just being like this is my area and this is
I'm not a victim.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
This is like I mean, I literally carry my pepper
spray in those situations like walking down the street in
the dark, whatever, Yeah, it's like walking to my Like
when something just feels off sometimes I'll just walk with
it in my hand. Yeah, I don't know. I know,
I'm fucking paranoise shit, but like, but that's what it's
like really, So yeah, that's.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
What it's I can't recommend being a creepily gigantic man
and amazing you're like sixth three.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
Though. Last week I was in I was in Bloomington, Indiana,
and I went to I went to the gay bar
in Bloomingston, Indiana, and I went.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
To the address a gay bar.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (49:02):
And I looked in and there were like men playing
pool and like couples together. And I was like, oh,
this is not a gay bar. What's going on? Because
if there are men playing pool, you're in the wrong place.
So I went in and I was like, Hey, where's
the back door? And they were like, oh, you have
to go around through an alley to a window. List like,

(49:26):
it's just like it's a gay bar from the time
when gay bars couldn't have window Like gay bars were
about having a good time, well hiding.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
I like that. He I like that he knew what
you meant.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Yes, I wouldn't, but the experience of like walking through
that alley and being like, h, like, how many people
have been beaten?

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Yeah, you know, it's almost like it's a shameful thing
that you have to walk through this place and no
one wants to go.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
That's awful. I mean, it's it's like the old school
way of things, but it is. It's the closest I
can come to kind of understand what it's like for
you guys. Any time it's dark and you're going to
your car, of like, here's this alley where somebody could
wait to just like hit you with a baseball battery.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
So not even at night, it's all day too. Like
I won't walk down certain alleys during the day because
it's just.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
So walkdown alleys. No, they're dirty, and they're for garbage men.
They're not for girls.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
Garbage men not sanitation workers, is what you're saying. That's right,
men of garbage level humanity. I want to clear that up,
because sanitation workers are very respectable.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Oh, but they're just I also meant their truck goes
through that alley real fast.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
That's where the garbage cancer at. So shitty, dudes.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
It was one final topic I was discussed with you
is all right, Okay, So one of one of the
ways of sort of like saying something is not murder
is just sort of saying that the right state of
mind wasn't there. And what well, first of all, just
what manslaughter is is when you didn't intend to do something,

(50:57):
that you made a mistake and you did it, you
were negligent. So like any essentially anything you do in
a car not murder. It is like in the state
of California, I think there's really strong presumption that anything.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
You do in a car is not murch Like I
wouldn't want to kill someone like your car. Yeah, Like
you wouldn't be trying to kill someone with your car.
Like if you shoot someone in a car, I'm not
don't be crazy, right, yeah, but just sort of like
you know, an accident is an accident.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
But again, like I don't know why I'm targeting all
of this towards Georgia because of your attempts obsession. The
difference between I hit somebody with my car and I
hit somebody with my car and then it killed them.
Is I accidentally hit someone with my car and then
I killed them, is you're going to.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Jail for eight years and I knew a guy who's wait,
sorry sorry, I accidentally hit.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Someone with my car and then it killed them. You're
going to jail.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
You're going to jail. That's manslaughter. You've committed manslaughter.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Even though it was an accident. Just why don't fucking
drive even if you're buzzed, Because can you imagine two
drinks and you drive and you accidentally kill someone. I
didn't realize that's what you were saying.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
Yes, that's horrifying, and there is there's an extra level
of that where there are things that you were doing
that are accidents but are so diggishly stupid that they're
called depraved heart, and so they're either called depraved heart
manslaughter or in some states that's enough for murder.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Like I think I know a dude that that happened.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
What's the example, though, I went on into my balcony
and I shot my machine gun just into spaces. I
just drove my car into a farmer's market because I
thought it would be funny. Oh like, it doesn't just
funning at all.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
Well, I know it. So I know a dude. He
was fucking high on meth. There was fucking traffic on
the freeway. And he decides to fucking gun it in
the next to the fast line, like the pull off lane,
so fucking people had broken down in that lane, and
he comes around a curve and hits them, and they
fucking I cannot It's been fifteen years there.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
That's completely depraved heart, and that.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
Horrifying if you went to prison for a long time, it's.

Speaker 3 (53:03):
Very interesting thing that for a long time I got
so drunk or I got so stoned, just meant that
you had been negligent, yeah, and not that you had intent, Like, oh,
does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (53:16):
So now does it now mean that?

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Like basically it would now probably be construed as depraved heart,
Like you just you got yourself into a situation where
you knew it was possible that you were might driving
to somebody like that.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
Well, that's a thing where like I lived through, I
think we all lived through the time where we watched
drunk driving become a bad thing, yes, which is hilariously
insane now, but like it was when I was ten
or twelve years old, I remember the it was I
think it was a made for TV movie where like
and it's a true story of the drunk driver who

(53:52):
had been arrested for drunk driving eight times, and then
that he does it it's the nights, but never went
to jail.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
It was like, here's your ticket. Ticket, ticket comes over
the hill. It's the one.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
It's the story of the woman who founded mother start driving.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
Her kids walking in the middle of the street over
a hill.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
He's drunk. He plows down two girls, I think, and yeah,
and that's when they were like, no more of this
fucking businessman who had a great lunch and sorry everybody bullshit.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
You would think that they could that the parents could
sue the city for that, for never having punished him
for all the eight fucking DUIs he already had.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
I think, No, they do stuff like that. But like
back then it was like, oh, but we all drink
and drive.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
Yeah, you, interestingly can't sue a city for things like
that because of a thing called sovereign immunity.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Shut up.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
Where unless the state unless this like when the state
is acting like a business, like when they're when they're
running like oh we take your garbage away or we're
making power that stuff, you can sue them over. But
we did the stuff that like only a state can do,
like we prosecute like we failed at prosecuting them or whatever.

(55:04):
It's like you treat them the same way you would
the King of just like, no, they're.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
Fine, can police state? Motherfucker?

Speaker 3 (55:11):
What's interesting now? I'm four against? I mean, I think
we're fine right now and we are cruising for me
in your future.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
In twenty seventeen, let's work against is what we're saying.

Speaker 3 (55:21):
Interesting is the first Like, as we get more texting
while driving, the thing is, it's like texting wile driving,
probably negligent driving while watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills
on your phone.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
Brave, who does that?

Speaker 2 (55:36):
I feel like watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills is
to Brave Tart And it took me too long to
say that to your No, it was good?

Speaker 3 (55:43):
Then you can you think of any other way of
getting rid of somebody's state of mind?

Speaker 1 (55:49):
First of all, you're the best teacher I've ever I
know asked questions, I'm.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
So sorry to here being so lost.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
You're the one you know all the answers. That must
be the best brat. What can we think of another
way of.

Speaker 3 (56:02):
Like obviating the the of sort of removing the state
of mind as one of the elements, drugs elements. Thing
is drugs is basically the sort of lowering it to
negligence the way that we.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Talk mentally capacitated incapacity, except I said mental capacity. What's
mentally capacitated about?

Speaker 3 (56:24):
There are okay, so there are cool defenses like self
defense is a great defense. But there are cool defenses
like duress dress.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
I'm always under duress.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
Yes, he has my child, and he told me the
only way he would let my child out is if
you know I try.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
I work for cats to hail a bitch if they
have my cat.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
Okay, based on the things that I have told you,
what do you think the standard would be?

Speaker 1 (56:54):
What's the standard? Again? Based on the things you've told us?
And a great I've flunked out of a state school,
I wunch community college and just fucking class.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
How do we determine whether it's threatening a cat enough
for it to be dressed on? Georgia hardstar because.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
I'm in love and you can kill I. If you
have an Instagram and there's photo this thing on it,
then you can fucking kill.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
So if she cradles the cat like a baby every night,
so that.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
Is proof that Georgia actually felt like that would be terrible.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
Yes, but you.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Also feel so I can do it. You also have
to ask what a reasonable person kill the secretary of
the Interior to save up their cat.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
I would do it. Just someone go ahead and say
this is going to be my trial.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
But the other more interesting thing is like mental state.
And so I just wanted to talk about a little
bit about not guilty by reason of insanity? How much
does that actually come up in these horrible, horrible people
that you guys discussed the.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Things I've been learning and reading about. Is that a
lot of people we'll try it, and it's really easy
to fucking it's really easy to disprove it. And the
reality is it's really fucking hard to prove and it's
it's always an extreme case. Now you can't just it's not.
It's not as easy as people think it's going to be.
It's the the guy that.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
In Canada, I believe Winnipeg took the machete to the
other guy's head on the bus. The province of gun
episode No is Winnipeg and Manitoba.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
Yes it is.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Is this the Cannibal episode? Uh No, not Cannibal.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
It's just the guy that went crazy on the Greyhound bus,
remember and he yeah, kills the guy sitting next to
him and then just went crazy and.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Didn't you eat a little bit of him? Yes, you're right,
we had a cannibal episode order pretending you to do things.
That's right. He ended up.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
It was by reason of insanity because he was technically
he was I believe schizophrenic, but not king his medication
because he it was. It was like his family was
basically judging him for being schizophrened, like you can't be crazy.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
But based on that though, like if you're schizophrenica and
you stopped taking your meds, aren't you responsible for that?
Like you can't just stop taking your meds and kill someone.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
Fascinating question and.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
It's thirty two part questions.

Speaker 3 (59:20):
It's been super hard. Also, have you guys done the
Florida kid who ate the people in the garage? Yet?

Speaker 1 (59:28):
Fast Salts? I believe it was basalts ate the face
was on steroids. I don't know, on a highway, right,
she ate it in a garage?

Speaker 3 (59:38):
It may have been Basalts. But there's footage of him
walking out of an Applebee's looking really weird.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Who doesn't look weird? Apples just me too long to
say that.

Speaker 3 (59:47):
Save it. Save it for year fifteen anyway. So basically
there have been like a couple of big theories about
how do we figure out is this person crazy enough?
And the first one like started when a guy tried
to kill the Prime Minister of Britain, And it's called
the McNaughton rule, which was the rule for like a

(01:00:08):
really long time, and that comes down to could they
not tell the difference between bright and rang? Which is like,
that's sort of like the classic question, and it's also
so weirdly subjective, and like in the sixties we started
moving towards this new thing called the Durham Test, which
was trying to be cool and scientific and more understanding

(01:00:29):
of things, and they the question was, was this a
result of your mental illness? Was the act a result
of your mental illness? And then the president got shot.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
Oh yeah, and for Jodie Foster, yes yeah, and what's
his name said not reason by guilty of insanity, and
under the Durham test he was judged not guilty by
reason of insanity.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
And then every fucking state came back and passed laws
that were like fuck you Durham Test, and so like
they some of them went back to the McDonald rule.
So some of them went in the direction of this
thing called the irresistible impulse test.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
That sounds like a new which it's kind of fruity,
stinks of blood, irresistible impulse piece.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
Kind of that guy, Like the question is just the
classic question is if it was a police officer standing
by your elbow, would you still do it? And like
manageable bus guy just feels like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
No, no, he absolutely was convinced he had that that
guy was had a demon inside of him and he
had to kill him.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
That's a really great question.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Yeah, it's like you're in this other world and it
doesn't matter who's at.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Your elkor on your side, you know, the cops on
your side and your yeah, you're trying to protect that cop.
Is essentially the mentality.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
It's and and that that also goes towards that mcnotton
idea of like can you just not tell the difference
between right and wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
But it's like, oh, like you know, you got molested
as a kid, and so you think that's okay, and
you you know, list another your kid. It's like, that's right,
that's what you're supposed to be doing. You know, in
a fucking pedophile's mind, the thing.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
Is is like a it's so at this point in time,
it's super super hard to get it not guilty by
reason of insanity. And then there's also the things like
even if you do not guilty by reason of insanity,
you're going to a mental hospital for what should be forever,
like what should be until you're cured, cured. So you

(01:02:38):
guys recently had a horrifying story. Was it recent or
I just listened to it recently. I don't remember any
of somebody somebody who went somebody who got a not
guilty by reason of insanity and then got out like
within a year.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
I love them. Well, I feel like it was. I
think it was a little bit longer than here. But
our greyhound bus guy a race for you now. Oh
it's free now in Canada.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
It's so charming. Yeah. And also like I always think
of like mental facilities like can I go there for
a week please? But it's not like a yoga retreat.
This is a fucking like shitty Well.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Also, they don't exist anymore, right, this is true, they don't.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
A friend of a friend of mine went to a
women's jail in Japan.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Oh god, oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:03:20):
I always just imagine that is the most amazing spot.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
I just imagine it was all hello kitty stuff like fish.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
And fish and rice three times a day, like exercise.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Like a quiet linen, clothing, just sato facial bar. You're
just there's a lot of exfoliating and gorgeous skin.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
Oh the hair is just luscious. But it's it's so small,
it's like a small cube. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
I mean, like my mom was a psychiatric nurse, a
head nurse at a mental hospital. And when Proposition thirteen
pass and they closed most of the mental health facilities
in California again, and I think across the nation.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
I can't remember what if it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
Was stated thirteen was just California.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Yeah, it was California. But I mean that's.

Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
Something that has declined, Like I think the Reagan administration
cut funding for mental health and released a bunch.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
Of people fucking epidemic because these are all people who
should be in mental health, but they should be taken
care of and medicated and instead, so that kind.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Of thing where these days, if it's not guilty by
reason of insanity, where do they send people?

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
I mean, there are just like deeply overbooked state mental
hospitals and some that are I believe specifically structured for
people who have committed crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Oh okay, so it's like a wing at a prison
almost yeah, oh oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
I think California has that. Oh fullsome I think has
is where the sort of like mentally ill people who
have committed crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Let's go there right now. Let's do a fulsome trip.
You know what's funny?

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
My mom, So I may be totally wrong about that.
And let's just remember I went to law school sixteen
years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
This is my favorite murder. Being wrong is so right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
I was just gonna say, really quick, there's a there's
a maximum security it's a super max prison prison called
Pelican Bay that's up in Way, northern California. And my
mom used to go with her friend, missus man Willer.
I can't remember her first name, uh, because missus mann
Willer was the kind of nurse.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
I think she was also a psychanter nurse. And she
would go there and.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Give like tests to the residence. For some reason, I
can't remember what she was doing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
I don't want to talk to her so bad.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
My mom would just go along and stay at the hotel,
like read a book, and then they would like go
to a fun dinner. Roo. I'm like, you're intentionally going
to Pelican Bay where like it's basically all about the
super max prison. It's where they put Vaca, that's right.
And she was like, oh, of course I'll go. I'll
just go up there with her.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
They have this great Italian place and meanwhile inside the
prison are like all it's all the Hannibal lecters of
like California.

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
She didn't have to deal with you and your sister.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
So true, so true.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
When I was in Bostle and Minnesota that took us
to go see the prisons, and it's the weird thing
is like I'm from California, where we have so like
we should have so many of these things. Minnesota was
basically just like there are two maximum security prisons and
one of them was like eighteen hundred'ser clink kind of
like that thing. One of them was like oz like

(01:06:43):
state of the art, state of the art. There's like
a bubble where you can run the whole place from there.
And they were making like kindergarten mats. That was the
thing that they did was they made little mats for kindergarteners.
She's nice, and it was, you know, terrifying, It was
legit terrifying to see what life there would be like.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
Well, you we talked about this when we were both
watching The Night Of. We talk about it all the time,
how it's like we want them people that do horrible
things to be locked away forever, and no sentence seems
long enough and all that stuff. Then you watch The
Night Of and you're like, four minutes as a prisoner
inside of in any of those places is an absolute

(01:07:22):
horror show, nightmare like then you start getting It makes
me think about it, the complexity of when you get
you know, when you actually get found guilty for a
crime like that and you go away for eleven years
because you did this thing and you literally are delivered
into the bowels of hell and hopefully hopefully you stay alive.

(01:07:44):
Like that does count for something. We always want it
to be fifty years or whatever, But like, is eleven
years enough when it's that level of suffering and fear
and constant horror?

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
But what did you do to your victims? They had
a similar that's private. What I did to my victim? No,
I know, no, absolutely, and it's also like that's why
I'm also so interested in like cases where it's like
did they get the right guy? Because the thought of
walking in there and being like I have a living
years and I didn't fucking.

Speaker 3 (01:08:15):
Do this, Yeah, more horrifying than those stories. Yeah, I
was in there for seven years and then d NA
got the DNA like technology to figure out I couldn't
have remotely done this.

Speaker 1 (01:08:27):
Yeah, that's one hundred years more. You know, it's not
seven years, it's fucking dog years. It's I hate those
stories so much.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
Wrongly accused is like it's just it's how do you
convince people.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
In that situation you can sue for deprivation of your
civil rights? I think if you can show sort of
like like misconduct on the part of the or just
sort of likeailure to do their jobs properly and the diligence, yes,
on the part of execution.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
So like if someone else gets caught and convicted, then
you can you can, like if they find someone else's
DNA and they let you go, it's one thing, But
if they find someone else's DNA and they find that
person and convict them, that you probably have more leeway.

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
Well, what you would do is if they find DNA
that relates to your case, then you would There's a
thing called like a habeas corpus act.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
Where is it like mensis, Oh my god, I got
my mess on my habeas corpus to day.

Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
Habeas corpus is just it. It means like present the body,
and the thing is is that's a proof sexy a
direct like a direct thing where you get to go
to an appeals court and say, like, look, this means
there's no possible way he did it, and like those
are the things that like people in jail are constantly

(01:09:57):
trying to like pursue themselves, and you get a occasional
TV movies about the one guy who is like get
himself out.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
The Innocence Project tries to do too.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
And don't you think that Beyonce should record a song
called present the Body where the core and then like
in parentheses is habeous carpet that's right exactly where the courus.

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):
Yeah, course, so you should be I mean, if there
is DNA evidence of that sort, you should be doing
a better job of getting yourself out there than the
state is doing or prosecuting somebody else, like it's on you,
like it's so it's it's on you, but also it

(01:10:37):
should be able to happen quicker, I would think than
the state going and trying to get that other person
from jail. From we're saying, there's an innocent person in
jail and there is a person out there who actually
committed the crime that like, the minute they find the

(01:10:58):
DNA that couldn't possibly be yours, then your lawyer can
file habeas corpus and you know, the like the police
will be or whoever it is well in the DNA
experts will all be like nope, nope, nope, and you
can get that done. And it seems like finding the
person and all of that who actually did it would

(01:11:21):
be a longer process than the habeas corpus.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Okays a lot. I don't know that I understand it
sounded real smart.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
Just now, I'm sorry, are you just saying as opposed
to the finding the guilty man, it's just proving it's
not you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:40):
It's just proving it's not you, And like it was
just a yeah. Georgia's question was like, basically, can there
be two people in jail for the same murder at
the same time and kind of no, oh, got it
unless they were like collaborated.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
What about the the guy who I truly got prosecuted
by the army?

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
Oh yeah, did you hear that one?

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
No, that's summer razy when we start talking about double jeopardy.
But I mean, anytime, I'll just say a thing where
I'm like, I'm pretty sure this is the word I
should be saying. But I can't have like a debate
about because I don't really know what I'm talking about.
But it was, you know, you know, he.

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
Got tried and convicted of a triple homicide that got
overturned and he got and he was declared innocent. Then
they found years later it's the Summerland Road murders. And
then years later they found DNA, you know, once DNA
technology was around, tying him to the murders. And so
because they couldn't try him for double jeopardy because of

(01:12:41):
double jeopardy, because he had already been convicted and then
beamed innocent, he had been in the Army at the time,
and so they reinstated him. And then he was tried
by one of the army people. I don't know what's
it called, cis Mark Carmon.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
Yeah, that's because those are different.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
Laws and different juristictions jurisdiction.

Speaker 3 (01:13:05):
No, because of their different laws, because they're different jurisdictions.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
But isn't that it's so that doesn't count as double
jeopardy if the army steps in and is like, we're
going to try it over here.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
Yes, because he violated a different law for committing murder
while a member of the.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
Army, or if he had if he had cross state
lines with a kidnap victim, then the FBI and or
the or the US could could try him, right.

Speaker 3 (01:13:34):
Yeah, So it's an interesting thing that like you can't
I don't think you can be convicted of Like can
you be convicted of both federal and state murder all
that sort, if they are, If it is both a
federal and state murder, I would think so because there
is a different requirement. But there is this thing where
if all of the elements of your crime are all

(01:13:58):
are also all of the elements of it different crime,
you can't be convicted for both of them. So like
going back to me, going back to me punching.

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
Stephen, going back to that, if Stephen sues you, just
for this example.

Speaker 3 (01:14:12):
All of the things that I did to punch Stephen
were battery, but they were in the situation where I
killed him, it was also murder, which means if you
prosecute me for murder and I am convicted of murder,
I cannot be convicted of the battery that was you know,
that was part of it. So with that, I assume

(01:14:36):
the thing is that, like the failure was on the
part of like the state law, like because there was
clearly some sort of technical failure in prosecuting it under
the state law, you cannot be retried under the state

(01:14:57):
But they're all of the facts.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
Still, I just wonder, like, you know, as science and
technology advances, just should double jeopardy, like depend on compelling evidence,
you know, when we someday can can can use you know,
DNA in the fucking nineties wasn't what it is today

(01:15:20):
in the early two thousands, and so there's so many
cases that they're going to find something bigger in twenty
twenty five when we know more.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
And it is so hard. It is very, very hard
when we constantly have new technology that gives us more information.
And when you tried somebody under what like criminal research
was in nineteen eighty four, you want to have another
stab at it in twenty sixteen. But I believe in

(01:15:48):
the idea of like, no, you get like statute of limitations,
let's deal with it now. Yeah, And you kind of
have to deal with that under the terms of now,
and you can't go back, and it's hard way things
like cold cases and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
And it's also to the prosecution to decide if they
actually have a case that they can win. So if
you don't, then you should fucking wait until you do,
except which is why they don't try a lot of
wait the non body.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
Like it's one of your rights, right, yeah, except for
the fact you've got that the yes, speedy trial. But
the thing is that speedy trial only starts once they
arrest yeah, And you don't arrest someone and tell you yeah.
And the thing that's interesting is like, we knew she
was dead in nineteen sixty seven, but if we get

(01:16:34):
information that says, oh, so and so did it in
nineteen or in twenty sixteen, then you can go and
get that guy. It's not like statute of limitations has
told because wait, how's it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
Again, it's murder, yeah, if it's right, never for murder,
never form murder.

Speaker 3 (01:16:55):
Yeah, but yeah, like you just kind of have to
wait until you have enough stuff. That is a case.

Speaker 1 (01:17:04):
Fuck man, yeah, fuck, wow, funny, this is horrifying.

Speaker 3 (01:17:11):
I've forgotten so much about this stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
You welcome to our world.

Speaker 3 (01:17:15):
I'm sorry all of your listeners.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
What's there's only five hundred lawyers out there that listen
to this.

Speaker 3 (01:17:24):
This is terrible. Also all of this well no, but
also the worst part about this is that I love
giggling to myself about Karen calling Winnipeg a province or
Manitoba city. Now you're going to get all of the
lawyers writing millions of listeners.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
Have you seen her fucking liftings? I sent a sweet honestly, shit.

Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
You're going to make a quilt about how I got
the law wraw.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
What's gonna happen if someone's gonna be like a meme
of a quilt that and it's adorable and charming and
everyone loves you know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
I think this is so satisfying because basically, for a
year straight, we've been thrown out what we think and
kind of that with the intention of, like we'll probably
get back.

Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
Around to this and have an answer adventure or whatever.
But I'm arguing, like well, this not arguing with each other,
but like saying like this should be this way, and
it's like, well, here's why it's not that way, right.
I like that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:18):
And the thing is I do I like after law school,
I was just so terrified every time I got behind
the wheel of a car. Please let me not kill
someone this time.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
Yes, no, I will be that way too.

Speaker 3 (01:18:30):
But the paranoia of like, once you're in the criminal
justice system, they're so horrifying, and I have the right
to take your life away from you. That I do like,
however annoying it may seem. I do really believe in
all of those little constitutional things that are like if
you don't do it all right, then this person has
to go. Like this person gets off and watching the

(01:18:52):
Supreme Court kind of like scrape away at some of
those things, like it used to be anything remotely like
un kosher at half and like searching for something that
evidence was the fruit of the poisonous tree and could
never be used. And they've started to be a little
bit more. Yeah, even though you didn't have a warrant
for him, it's fine that you got that. That terrifies

(01:19:16):
even though it's finding people who actually are guilty mostly
of drug crimes and stuff like that. I'm just like,
I want all of the protections I can have so
that the state can't throw me away forever.

Speaker 2 (01:19:29):
That's right, that's the I think ultimately. That's the thing.
It's like once when we start talking about because we
are talking about cases most of the time, we're talking
about cases where we know the person did it. So
then when we opine, it's with a passion of God,
damn it. These people have their lives taken away by
this person who we know is bad because it's been

(01:19:52):
proven somebody else did all the work, and we just
get to say, yes, get rid of this person because
they got rid of other people and that sucks. But
when we get into those cases where it's a question mark,
you still have the same feelings of bad people should
pay for for ruining other people's lives.

Speaker 1 (01:20:13):
Well, it's interesting guy, that you think of it from
your side of like the of being the person who's prosecuted,
where I think of it as being the victim, and
like all the little things that all need to do,
like I save my I have all of my like
day planners for in the past like five years, so
if I ever need to say where I am or

(01:20:34):
what I was doing, or like testify for somebody else,
or you know, like if I use my credit card.
Every time I use my credit card at a fucking
parking meter, I think, Okay, well this is going to
be a trail of where I was that day in
case something happens.

Speaker 2 (01:20:47):
It's well it goes both ways though, because it also
could be a trail of something that proves you were
at a parking meter.

Speaker 1 (01:20:53):
And say it like, yeah, I don't think about that.
I'm a white fucking female, like I'm not, I don't
need to worry as much.

Speaker 3 (01:20:59):
Yeah, yeah, And I mean it is that situation of
like I'm just not scared of incidental crime in the
same way like somebody might rob me, you know, or
like there is random sort of I'm also just not
I'm not the most bashable gay guy, so.

Speaker 1 (01:21:19):
I feel like you're almost unbashable.

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):
Let's not say that, Yeah that's true, but it is
like that I think there's maybe like more randomness to
the kind of crime and like why somebody might murder
me than for women.

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
You know, like Nick, we're always vulnerable no matter what.

Speaker 3 (01:21:48):
But also the thing of the weird thing about reading
those cases and listening to your stuff is realizing that
somebody can just like bounce into your world and for
no reason as such horror and pain for just for
something that doesn't even make sense to.

Speaker 1 (01:22:07):
Me, and it's a shock wave of your family and
friends and fucking peripheral people in your life just pisces
me off so much that these fucking assholes can take
away so much by just having a fucking random feeling
to kill someone.

Speaker 2 (01:22:26):
Or drug addiction often is just the dumbest like they
were on meth and they didn't know what they were doing,
or they were on meth and it made them this
crazy violent or whatever, where it's just like, but there's
all these people that don't do myth and live, you know,
live legal life.

Speaker 3 (01:22:42):
Well, I mean the things where I do get into
the mindset of the victim are more sort of like
the evidentiary things of like if this person's not around,
we don't get to rely on the fact that they
can't you know that you're allowed to admit here's the
evidence for a dead person because they can't testify on

(01:23:03):
their behalf. Soccer, No, I think it's a wonderful The
best thing like there are parts of the law that
like feel like magic that really are just like such
old ancient magic. And my favorite one is the die
You're dying utterance is always admissible. Yes, you're so, you're

(01:23:24):
dying utterance. What is like is because the thing is is.

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):
Like it's that's this episode, it's dying utterance.

Speaker 3 (01:23:32):
It's hearsay. So hearsay is something someone You can't testify about,
stuff that somebody told you. You can only testify about
stuff that you like experience yourself. But when it is
you're dying utterance because there's no you around anymore, like,
that is always missible.

Speaker 1 (01:23:51):
And at least just to be considered.

Speaker 3 (01:23:53):
Yes, it does.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
It doesn't mean like it does. It's just like throw
that in there with everything else.

Speaker 1 (01:23:59):
Why is that? Okay? Okay? Why okay? So my sister
says to me, I'm really scared that my husband's gonna
kill me that and I say that, and she gets
killed and I say that that's hearsay.

Speaker 3 (01:24:12):
Yes, it's hearsay, but hearsay is admissible some of the time. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
But if you were as she was dying, leaned over
and she said it in your ear, he's the one
that did it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:21):
That seems like, Okay, that's fair, but that seems like
the opposite of how it should be. Like she's been
telling me this shit for years.

Speaker 3 (01:24:28):
Okay, Well, the thing is is like after your brother
in law testifies about stuff about how things were.

Speaker 1 (01:24:35):
Fine, Andy, I love you. I know you're not Mark.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):
I know that we have to say that. I just
realized that was like that you're the example. Sounds like
I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:24:42):
Mean that you're allowed. I mean there is something about
how hearsay from dead people. There's a separate rule about
hearsay from dead people being more admissible. But also you
can admit hearsay to impeach his testimony. So if he
says things were fine and I had the best of relationships,
then we can bring Georgia to the stand. And Georgia says, okay,

(01:25:06):
she told me nineteen times and I wrote them down
on the little pad in my kitchen, And the little
pad from your kitchen is also admissible.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
Okay, yeah, it makes sense.

Speaker 3 (01:25:16):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
And also emails these days wouldst forever so wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
I'm keeping a fucking pad in my kitchen from now on,
and I'm writing down every time anything happens good idea,
right ya, and then you can write a book. It's
just intense detail of every single thing that happens to you.

Speaker 3 (01:25:34):
My mom has a situation that Karen Kider knows about.
That's just like where there might come this situation where
she needs to test about something and she's always just like, well,
I put it on my pad, I wrote it down.

Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
God's telling you mean she really does that?

Speaker 1 (01:25:55):
Yes, Oh my god, that's hilarious. I keep my my
my my daily calendars is like I'll remember something if
I see that I went to this fucking doctor or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:26:05):
That right or right. Having documents for stuff is just
so exciting from a legal perspective. You do discovery that
means the other side gets a copy of your calendar.
So so so many cocks.

Speaker 1 (01:26:17):
Oh, I went to Core reporting school for a year,
which I know that shit.

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
I would actually say too that in almost like the
inverted version of this that I think of is like
in my family, there was a ton of death when
I was young, and it was a lot of it
like surprising and one after the other.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
And that's when I just decided I'm gonna do it.
I fucking want you.

Speaker 2 (01:26:39):
Because when we talk about the random stuff, or when
we talk about being a woman and walking with fear
at night or whatever it is. It's this thing where
any this that's that is the deal of life. That
is what being born into this life. That's the situation.
It's the same. You know, it's different for different people
for different reasons, but in general, well, we are all

(01:27:01):
constantly at risk. We all have the specter of death
hanging over us all the time. It's why some people
love true crime, it's why some people love to paint,
it's why some people can't stop jogging.

Speaker 1 (01:27:11):
Whatever the fuck it is.

Speaker 2 (01:27:12):
But ultimately, I feel like I had this kind of
weird realization as a young child who is like, this
fucking sucks and it could end at any second.

Speaker 3 (01:27:21):
Well, the thing is like it could be somebody with
a machete on a bus, or the amount of potassium
in your system.

Speaker 1 (01:27:27):
Yeah exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
So then why not be like, oh sorry, I meant
to tell you I'm totally in love with you? Or
why not go do stand up comedy that you're scared
to death of doing? But why not do it because
it's the thing in your heart that you want to do,
Like you might as well, this is your one fucking shot,
and you can sit there lining up all the things
that are the reasons why you should be scared, or

(01:27:48):
you can go well, I should be really scared because
this whole situation is really scary. So why be scared
about the one thing I really want to do? Why
not just fucking do it? Then?

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
Twenty six? That's twenty seventeen. That's twenty seventeen. Baby's seventeen
is how Karen is doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
And everybody else if you would like it, Johnny, how
long have we been talking?

Speaker 1 (01:28:12):
Eight hours long? Should we do one? Murder from our
cards or true crime card? Draw draw murder like like
it's tourou cards?

Speaker 3 (01:28:21):
All right?

Speaker 1 (01:28:22):
I have I have a stack of these murder, these
true crime playing cards that Stephen steven Ry Morris gave
us last week. We're each gonna draw one, okay, and
we're gonna read them. It's just fucking It's just like
playing cards, and it's murder. Oh shit, you guys, all right,
I'm gonna do one. Oh my god, oh my god,
my god, my god. Okay, who wants to go first? Karen?

(01:28:44):
You sound excited? She goes last. Guy seems disheartened. Guy,
do you want to reachoo. Wait, hold on, I think
this this might be what no hold on I said last. No,
it's the McNaughton rules.

Speaker 2 (01:28:58):
Oh I fuck, just pulled the card.

Speaker 1 (01:29:04):
Crazy. Okay, let me read this McNaughton rules. We'll just
we'll double check your work.

Speaker 2 (01:29:09):
In eighteen forty three, Daniel McNaught and the Glasgow woodworker
shot the Secretary to the British. That's oh, guys, I
have tingly tingles right now.

Speaker 1 (01:29:19):
I packages of these and this is the one we
open and that's the when you fucking I was looking,
they were upside down what is happening?

Speaker 3 (01:29:27):
Line?

Speaker 2 (01:29:28):
She had intended to kill the Prime Minister, but was
unclear as to his appearance. At his trial, McNaughton, suffering
from delusions of persecution, proclaimed the Tories route to get him.
The jury found him to be insane and not responsible
for the magnitude of his crime. He was to be
sent to an institution. Concerned parliament members convened a panel

(01:29:48):
of judges to explain this. Their answer forms the McNaughton rules,
which colon which are this? Jurors are to be informed
that the accused is presumed to be in to be
sane as he or she is presumed to be innocent.
To establish a defense on the basis of insanity, the
accused must be disturbed enough to not know the nature

(01:30:11):
and quality of what he.

Speaker 1 (01:30:13):
Or she did, or, if knowing it, to know it
was wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
Further, if the accused labors under partial delusion only, he
or she must be considered in the sane situation as
to responsibility as if the facts with respect to the
delusion were real. These British rules, commonly called the insanity defense,
have been adopted in America and Canada and have been

(01:30:37):
tested hundreds of times since their inception.

Speaker 1 (01:30:40):
In the cases of a serial killers such as Ted.

Speaker 2 (01:30:42):
Bundy, Edward Gean, I look when they call him, Edward
Kenneth Bianki, and Jeffrey Dalmer, the atrocities committed have led
defense lawyers to attempt to prove insanity. While this strategy
was successful in the case of the obviously dysfunctional gain,
most such defenses proof futile because the sociopathic personality, while

(01:31:03):
deviant and his desires, is often not out of touch
with reality, and jurors usually decide that a killer functional
enough to hide his or her crimes can be presumed
to be aware of wrongdoing. And I would just like
to say that these are true crime series. This is
from true crime series for serial Killers and mass Murderers

(01:31:23):
by Valerie Jones and Peggy Collier lay NAIs, and the
art is by Paul Ley Eclipse Enterprises. Just in case
enemy wants to It's in Forestville, which is right by Pedalimma,
who is a game again.

Speaker 1 (01:31:36):
A Gain is the.

Speaker 2 (01:31:37):
One that basically killed several people women in his town,
killed his mother.

Speaker 1 (01:31:44):
Psycho was based on.

Speaker 2 (01:31:45):
Him, as well as Silence of the Lambs. He's the
one that made furniture. He wore his mother's face at
nipple belt, Yes, nipple necklace, a nipple belt, you're right.
And he danced with his like different parts of his
mother under the moonlight.

Speaker 1 (01:32:01):
He was out of his goddamn mind.

Speaker 3 (01:32:05):
Do you guys hate the movie Copycat?

Speaker 1 (01:32:09):
Do you mean? Do you mean with Sandra Bullock?

Speaker 3 (01:32:11):
No? What was the one with Harry Connick Junior and
Sigourney Weaver?

Speaker 2 (01:32:16):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:32:16):
I like that one? Oh? Really?

Speaker 1 (01:32:17):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:32:18):
I always just thought that his serial killerness was so
Yorky compared to actual serial killerness.

Speaker 2 (01:32:25):
He hadn't refined his acting style as he had eventually done.

Speaker 1 (01:32:29):
In Hope floats.

Speaker 2 (01:32:33):
But I enjoy everything that's happening also because it's in
San Francisco.

Speaker 3 (01:32:37):
Right, Yes it is, and it's amazing. And Sigourney Weaver,
it's Sigourney wears a lot of suits. And Holly Sigourney
Weaver and Holly Hunter. But I just anytime Karen like
is just on board for an actor. Her love of
Sandy Bullock. I'm just like.

Speaker 1 (01:32:55):
When Sandy cries, I cry.

Speaker 3 (01:32:56):
How how can Karen love this?

Speaker 1 (01:33:01):
It's in me? I want to do it. Yeah she
I think he wants someone to dig that out. And
I think Santra Bullock does it for you.

Speaker 2 (01:33:07):
She does it, but but I have to say, like
not the proposal Sandy where she's kind of it is
so good.

Speaker 1 (01:33:14):
It's good.

Speaker 2 (01:33:15):
But that's that's my Sandy is more eight weeks.

Speaker 1 (01:33:20):
Notice that's I will watch eight weeks. Notice. Yeah, anytime
wherever it is beginning, middleer end, Okay, I feel the same.
I'm the same way with Steel Magnolia's, Oh and Sleeping
with the Enemy. I will turn on what movie is
so good?

Speaker 3 (01:33:36):
Steel Magnolia's just goes down so smooth, like it's just
it's so it's so smooth on a hot day, It's wonderful. Yeah,
do you want to go? Do you want to go last?
Because you're the guest? Okay, where is terrible? I feel
like it will be an anti climax.

Speaker 1 (01:33:51):
Do you go on another one?

Speaker 3 (01:33:52):
No, it's good, go for it.

Speaker 1 (01:33:53):
Okay, I should know I'm budding it. Okay. James Reagan,
I'm gonna guess by his fuck face and goddamn fadora
that he's a mobster. He was born in eighteen eighty one.
Began his crime career as a slugger for the Chicago
Tribune during new circulation wars of the nineteen twenties. That
sounds boring. In nineteen forty his Continental Press. This is

(01:34:15):
so boring. Oh god. Uh, it's like about wire service
and bookies and there's.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
Some people listening to their relations. Oh my god, finally
I think wire service crime.

Speaker 1 (01:34:26):
Okay, it's the Chicago ma Bone Continental Press. They control
illegal booking, book making. It's about bookmaking and mom, throw
it away, rip it up. I'm not I can't. I
don't care.

Speaker 3 (01:34:38):
They were going to kill someone eventually, and like, these
are so boring that there was wires involvement in federal crime.
I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 (01:34:46):
It's okay. Those g men were going to come in
and really take care. Look at a guy looks creepy. Okay,
here we go, okay Richard Tindler Junior. Yeah, And it's
like a really creepy drawing of like an alien trying
to look like a man.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
He looks like he has plugged his eyebrows without using
a mirror.

Speaker 1 (01:35:04):
Totally he does. Richard Tingler Junior was an illegitimate child
born in nineteen forty. Not his fault. I just want
to go ahead and point that out. That's right. His mother
often taunted him for his quote sinful birth and beat him.
What a fucking yeah, I mean she started. It'm sorry,
she totally started. He escaped home by enlisting on the
Air Force and AGG nine. While stationed in Alaska, he

(01:35:26):
went a well with a friend and was arrested for
burglary in February Andinete sixty one, he was released in Chillicothe, Ohio.
Six months later, he was arrested on thirteen counts of
breaking and entering, sentenced to one to fifteen years in
state prison, and was paroled in August sixty four. He
broke a roll with more burglars. Returned to prison on
September sixteenth of that year. Four bodies three mail or

(01:35:50):
found shot to death in a Cleveland park. One month later,
he robbed a dairy bar in Columbus. What's a dairy bar?
Just like people go there to drink milk? Six shots
of milk. Just drink milk and me another cool. He
strangled the manager into unconsciousness and shot two teenage workers
identified by the manager. He was indicted on six counts

(01:36:11):
of murder and became one of the f guys Most
Wanted in November sixty eight. Using the alias Don Williams,
Tingler secured work at an Oklahoma farm. March thirtieth sixty nine,
his photograph with broadcast in an episode of the FBI.
Oh my god, can we get fucking with some There
was a show called the FBI in nineteen sixty nine

(01:36:32):
which we fucking need we need it? What how is
no one.

Speaker 3 (01:36:36):
Put it on the list video historians.

Speaker 1 (01:36:38):
Come on, let us have it.

Speaker 3 (01:36:41):
Radio.

Speaker 2 (01:36:41):
So I was just gonna say, we can go to
the Museum of Television and Radio and watch it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:45):
Okay, okay, this is like I don't know what that
is is it like it's in Beverly Hills Microfish exactly,
but with video. He vanishes. In April, he's shot, and
he shoots and robs in middle aged man, then goes
home to the farm. Erratic behavior attract the attention. FAI
agents arrested Tindler in May, extradited to face charges in Ohio.

(01:37:05):
Is convicted of murder and sentenced to die. His sentence
was community it's a life imprisonment. When the death penalty
was overturned, King Glass kind of boring.

Speaker 3 (01:37:14):
I just wanted more insight, Like I just, oh, like
these parents were unmarried. It's the only thing we got
for why he did all of them.

Speaker 2 (01:37:23):
And also just you shoot four people? Like what was
that situation?

Speaker 1 (01:37:26):
I feel like they make him seem diabolical and really
he's just a fucking like drifter who just like doesn't give,
who has no emotional attachment to people. It's not that Like,
but do we know that, Like what was that four
person murder? Yeah? I just it doesn't sound like he's
got he he got he's missing a chip.

Speaker 3 (01:37:43):
Yeah, they're more drifters in the sixties.

Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
I think I feel like road card writers is thatthing
you mean treaties. I like half the hippies or I
mean hippie. I feel like half the hippies were just
people are like, fucking great, I get to do this
in fuck hot hippie awesome hot Runaways. That's very true.
I think so called Charles Manson.

Speaker 3 (01:38:05):
Four seventies Runaways we it is stupid, idiot. This show
is such a beautiful tribute Unaways because I forget that
they exist. And then it feels like every other episode
there's a fourteen year old girl who says to strike
out on her own.

Speaker 2 (01:38:17):
Well, she either decides to strike on her own or
the cops go, I don't know, she ran away, but
she'll come back.

Speaker 1 (01:38:23):
It's that old story. They make hippies seem like such
free spirits, and it's really just like kids from like
small towns who are like, I'm going to go do
a thing and they're like, oh shit, yeah, and then
have to do terrible things to get money and survive,
and they're like, I made a fucking huge mistake. And
those those like videos of them like dancing and having fun,
it's like, no, you're having a terrible trip around a
bunch of sober people.

Speaker 3 (01:38:44):
I feel like the core difference between hippies and hipsters
is a graphic design degree from a decent school that
allows you to like have that studio apartment in San
Francisco or you know Oakland or extended Brooklyn, Yeah, where
you can be fine.

Speaker 1 (01:38:59):
Different is whether or not you choose to be in
the park.

Speaker 2 (01:39:02):
Right, Are you sleeping in the park or did you
just walk down to the park to get high?

Speaker 3 (01:39:06):
Right, Karen, let me tell you the most beautiful San
Francisco story I had. I was in the Yes, Georgia, Okay,
so I was at I went to the bathroom at
the McDonald's that like a butts Golden Gate Park.

Speaker 1 (01:39:24):
That's where the mea is.

Speaker 3 (01:39:25):
Yes, exactly, exactly gross. Do you have Bay Area origins? Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:39:29):
I lived there for a while.

Speaker 3 (01:39:30):
Okay. So I walked into the bathroom and there was
the most adorable twink in cover I have you drug
use tracks was shaving like the barely there beard that

(01:39:50):
he had because he was an adorable twink with ninety
you said enough really eat or like two thousand and
two and with a disposable razor. And then as he
finished he offered it too. He was like, do you
want to shaz and I was like, honey, baby, no,

(01:40:12):
I'm good. It was like, like, that's San Francisco, Like
that is San Francisco.

Speaker 1 (01:40:17):
So especially in the late nineties. Yes, it's very you
can't share razors. I've told you not a thing. I
want to keep talking about fucking San Francisco in the nineties.
But that's another episode, should I read, Lou Gong, that's
for the end of Night of twenty seventeen.

Speaker 2 (01:40:32):
Yeah, that's right, where we doing all San Francisco episode
maybe of just terrible stories of yes, winn a bummer.
It was me stealing toilet paper from bars, just.

Speaker 3 (01:40:42):
A dark time, me going to Berkeley and being scared
to go into the city. The core question of my
first years of stand up were do I have three
seventy five to get to the bridge?

Speaker 1 (01:40:56):
My gosh.

Speaker 3 (01:40:58):
Lou Gong was born in nineteen sixty in Beijing, China,
one of three children. His father was a clerk and
his mother was a doctor. Good for them, feminism, that's right. Child.
His maskils blossomed in junior high and he won academic
awards and eventual admission to Beijing University. Upon graduation in
nineteen eighty five, he entered the University of Iowa to

(01:41:18):
study physics. Oh, this is a terrible like we're taking
like a Chinese guy to America's heartland, to where all
of our serial killers are.

Speaker 1 (01:41:28):
Nothing happened, right, everything was He used to go on
the car though.

Speaker 3 (01:41:30):
We'll see. Upon graduation ninety a five University of Iowa
nineteen a seventy took troomates at his tiny apartment, but
both found him slovenly and superior. He was a loner,
bad tempered, and not well liked. He became a graduate
assistant and qualified for a PhD program.

Speaker 1 (01:41:46):
Can I jesus this guy is going to be a shooter?
Kill his forgiving him a bad grade.

Speaker 3 (01:41:56):
In the summer of nineteen eighty seven, and I you,
professor Shooklugong to an international conference in Europe. Upon his return,
he became disenchanted with physics. That happens to all of us.
Stores began to fail. He also began to pay processutes
for companionship. Nothing wrong when had that just handholding? In
nineteen ninety one, a large cash award he'd hoped for

(01:42:17):
was granted instead to a rival. He was incensed and
began to file complaints. He also bought a gun.

Speaker 1 (01:42:26):
A gun. Here we go, here we go, bought a gun.

Speaker 3 (01:42:29):
He received his doctorate, he still complained of a conspiracy
against him.

Speaker 1 (01:42:33):
No, nope, none, no, just.

Speaker 3 (01:42:35):
Go get tinier somewhere. In September nineteen ninety one, Lou
Goong closed out his savings account, packed up his belongings,
and sent them home. On November first, he walked into
a graduate seminar. He shot his professor.

Speaker 2 (01:42:47):
Oh wow, no, it's like everybody wins on this one,
and the professor's protege win.

Speaker 3 (01:42:52):
He calmly reloaded, walked into the apartment chairman's office and
killed him as students called nine one one. Lou Goong
killed the university was the ad vice president, the woman
who had been handling about this administrative official.

Speaker 1 (01:43:06):
Oh my god, wounded her secretary. Oh I'm in a secretary, that's.

Speaker 3 (01:43:12):
Sun, he went.

Speaker 2 (01:43:13):
She doesn't even get like any of the glory of
like I'm a professor of this.

Speaker 1 (01:43:18):
She's always wanted to watch fucking Nash Bridges and have
a fucking white line. All she did was file.

Speaker 3 (01:43:25):
Then he went to an empty room and killed himself.
The six victim murder, spray and suicide took twenty minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:43:33):
Wait, what year was it, like in the eighties?

Speaker 3 (01:43:36):
Was he one of the first ninety one?

Speaker 1 (01:43:38):
See? Like one of the first college shooters? I wonder,
Oh I was? I mean, aside, I'm not in college,
so I wondered, did they it's not out of college?
Do they call it a college shooting?

Speaker 3 (01:43:47):
Yeah? No, it was out of college. He was in
the University of Iowa. Speaking of which, there's something I
have to discuss with you guys after.

Speaker 1 (01:43:55):
The show is Oh, oh my god, what is it?
Is it law?

Speaker 3 (01:43:59):
It's a school shooting that I've been planning. I've just
been working on it.

Speaker 1 (01:44:03):
You know this is admissible? It is Oh my god,
that's crazy. That was crazy. Oh God, everything's the worst.
It always ends this way. Can we have a good
thing because I'm really like this week has been shitty
because I'm looking at Facebook too much and like reading
all these horrible fucking headlines and like fucking Aleppo and

(01:44:24):
all this crazy, awful shit's happening. Yeah, let's talk about
a good thing this week. I don't have one, Titus,
I have a fake good thing that is just me,
uh taking attempting to leverage your ridiculous success and make
it beneficial for me.

Speaker 3 (01:44:37):
But Georgia hard Stark is probably going to be guesting
on my podcast pop Rocket in January. Nice, I'm sorry.
And also, let me be clear. When I said to Karen, hey,
maybe I could come on and explain some legal things,
it was not just me trying to get on your
astounished successful. It was me yet, Like, look, when we

(01:44:57):
all listen to podcasts, we all want to yell back
at the podcast, which is essentially the only reason I
listen to podcasts, or just my friend, Yes, they look important.

Speaker 1 (01:45:07):
I'm going to talk on Instagram.

Speaker 3 (01:45:09):
It also right, you'll get to talk about non You'll
get to talk about murder things, but you'll also get
to talk about some fun non murder things.

Speaker 1 (01:45:16):
I don't know anything about non murder.

Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
Also, we have a little information now, so going forward,
whenever these things come up, at least going to be.

Speaker 1 (01:45:22):
Like, I think this was that thing I was talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:45:25):
Howmever, and we can like know wor that's exactly right,
and we'll start wearing office outfits.

Speaker 1 (01:45:31):
I will say, my good thing for the week is that.

Speaker 2 (01:45:36):
I am lucky enough And I mentioned this on our
last episode to be working on Guy Brandham's new show
for True TV called talk Show The Game Show, and we.

Speaker 1 (01:45:46):
Sit in a room.

Speaker 2 (01:45:47):
It's actually very much like my favorite Murder family because
we sit in a room with Jamie Lee from our
Bell House episode.

Speaker 1 (01:45:57):
She's the greatest.

Speaker 2 (01:45:58):
We Louie Katz, who is so hilarious, and Chase Bernstein,
who is a hilarious stand up comic who is our
writer's assistant, and we sit in that room and we
spend you know, forty five minutes working on the script
we're supposed to get done relatively soon, and then we
spend the rest of the day laughing our asses off

(01:46:19):
and very actively talking about like it'll start, the discussion
starts about what we need to figure out for the thing,
and it'll always end up in like some kind of
inner stand up theorizing that is so hilarious, And I
just feel grateful that I have a job that instead
of draining me of my lifeblood, it actually the time

(01:46:43):
goes by so fast and it is so enjoyable and
the opposite of stressful for fucking ones.

Speaker 3 (01:46:49):
It is the most fun. And I find so fascinating
that headspace where you're trying to find something to be
depressed or scared or sad about like a friend of
mine was recently just like a setting about the possibility
that he might die, and I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:47:02):
Like, you will do.

Speaker 3 (01:47:04):
Yeah, But the thing is he's happy, he's happy, and
he's trying to figure out a reason that he doesn't
deserve to be happy.

Speaker 1 (01:47:09):
Well, it's scary to be happy.

Speaker 3 (01:47:10):
So he's like imagining that we'll be taken away from him.
And I think there is something so fascinating about that dynamic.

Speaker 1 (01:47:18):
Yeah, with that like that mindset of like that's where
you're going right now, and you don't really don't have to.
I beat myself up about that a lot. Oh it's hard,
it's hard.

Speaker 3 (01:47:26):
Well, and as the good thing that we have is
that we're all full of sparkling wine, which is the
best fun.

Speaker 2 (01:47:31):
Not reard, I'm the opposite of full of sparkling wine.
But also the thing is guy keeps talking about where
like he'll talk about in preparation for when it all
goes bad, Like you keep bringing that up to me,
and it's so hilarious to me, where it's like we
almost don't even have time for this all to go bad.

Speaker 1 (01:47:48):
It's going to be done so quickly.

Speaker 3 (01:47:50):
Yeah, But I think a basic degree of pronoia is
something any like the lovely thing about la is You've
seen so many untalented people get amazing opportunity is over.
So it's so weird. I don't know if I've ever
told you this, but I just think the most hlarious
thing is that the most negative person on the planet,

(01:48:12):
Karen kill Garrett, who will scoff at anyone's sort of
a little project that her second podcast is a rousing success.

Speaker 1 (01:48:22):
Personality.

Speaker 3 (01:48:24):
Yes, it completely goes against her personality, Like Karen kill
Garreff is a person who's like deepest soul. Let's like
a second podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:48:35):
I tried not to start it, but but I was
so perissely really just we had to make it happen.
This was delightful. Yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:48:45):
Thanks so much for letting me cross over into the
world of my favorite murder. Because at fifty episodes or
how many.

Speaker 1 (01:48:52):
Episodes does it this will be forty nine.

Speaker 3 (01:48:54):
Yeah, it's it's been beautiful being taken through those hundred
stores raise and it's very fun to get to cross
over and get to play with you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:49:06):
We always say how nice it is when people we
like like the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:49:09):
Yeah, that so exciting cool and if you guys haven't already,
please listen to the podcast Pop Rocket.

Speaker 1 (01:49:16):
It is so awesome. They they talk about pop culture stuff,
but it's a it's a it's a discussion.

Speaker 3 (01:49:23):
I feel informed as.

Speaker 1 (01:49:27):
Show.

Speaker 2 (01:49:27):
It feels like it's very It felt very produced to
me when I was on it, where I was almost
a little bit like I don't know if I have
the right answer, and you're just like, I'm asking you
your opinion. It's like everybody felt very They had big
opinions about things, and I was like, I don't know
if I have opinions.

Speaker 1 (01:49:44):
You're just going to get loud and get sparkly wine.
That's right, I can's know. Yeah, thank you. Thanks to
Stephen Ray Morris of the Percast for being our amazing
audio engineer. Thanks too. I'm thankful for this week because
when I go out of town, which is a fucking
anxiety eat ridden thing for me because I hate leaving
my cats, the fact that he now takes care of

(01:50:05):
them like fills my heart with choway because they love
him and it makes it less anxious for me to
go away.

Speaker 3 (01:50:09):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:50:10):
You've got one. Yeah, yeah, yes, very good. You guys
I don't know, go to my favorite murder and do stuff. Yeah,
go on, Oh my god, there's games.

Speaker 2 (01:50:19):
And puzzles and you can join the raffle. It's gonna
be so awesome. Thanks you guys for listening.

Speaker 1 (01:50:26):
Happy new Happy new Year.

Speaker 2 (01:50:28):
Thank you for being here with us all through twenty sixteen. Yeah,
we've had a great time. Twenty seventeen, we're gonna fucking
pepper spray. You know, it's a good thing. Yeah, I
mean in a good way. It's not a bull like
we're gonna fucking kick it.

Speaker 1 (01:50:40):
We're gonna kick it, you know what I mean. Like,
we're gonna fucking pepper spray.

Speaker 3 (01:50:43):
Okay, let's go.

Speaker 1 (01:50:46):
We're gonna make it our bitch.

Speaker 3 (01:50:48):
We're gonna take keys between the knuckles. Shoo.

Speaker 2 (01:50:51):
Twenty seven you say, twenty seventeen's balls? All right, you guys,
stay sucky. I don't get murdered.

Speaker 1 (01:51:01):
Elvis, do you want to cook it? I want to
cook it? There we go exactly do that.

Speaker 3 (01:51:09):
I assume there was just like one track of itews everything.

Speaker 1 (01:51:12):
Why do you think he sits out here because he
fucking knows what's gonna happen. He comes over here and
he he knows