490 - Trust Me

This week, Karen and Georgia sit down with the hosts of Exactly Right’s newest podcast, Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation. Survivors Lola Blanc and Meagan Elizabeth share their firsthand experiences, discuss what draws people into high-control groups like Heaven’s Gate, the Manson Family and NXIVM and explore how to find a way out.

Trust Me premieres on July 30 with new episodes every Wednesday.

Follow, rate and review Trust Me wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the show on Instagram at @trustmepodcast and TikTok at @trustmecultpodcast.

For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes.

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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello, Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Heartstar.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
That's Karen Kilgera, and we have a very special show
for you today because for the last five years, our
guests have hosted the podcast Trust Me Cults, Extreme Belief
and Manipulation, where they dig into the psychology of cults
and how they operate. Each week, they speak with guests
who escaped cults like Heaven's Gate, the Manson Family, QAnon,

(00:41):
and of course Nexium.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Please welcome to the show. The host of Exactly Wright's
newest podcast, Trust Me, Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Hi.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Hey, yay, welcome, Thank you, welcome like here and here.
Thank you so exciting.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, Fame, it's very exciting. It's very exciting to see you.
It's very exciting to see your outfits today.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Thank you much.

Speaker 4 (01:03):
We worked really hard on that.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Really nice guys showed up for the outfits. I love it. Yeah,
that's so funny. I probably shouldn't say this because then
it's I'm going to get a bunch of dms. But
you dropped into my dms on Instagram and I knew
your podcast and loved it, and you're like, we're leaving
this network, what's up? And I'm like, hell yeah, yeah immediately.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
I mean it's such a good fit. I don't know,
I feel like we're so at home. You want here
so great.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, happy to have you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
And it's such a good podcast, you guys. I mean,
like it's so impressive. There's a lot of them out there,
but I think it really does. It raises the bar
for the genre. The way you guys talk about it
and the empathy you can talk about it from. I mean,
we'll get into all of it, but congratulations, and we're
so happy to have you.

Speaker 4 (01:47):
Thank you. My gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Let's start off with the way you guys. Should we
start with the way you guys start your podcast by
discussing the cultiest thing you've got going on this week? Yeah,
to think of one.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Okay, Megan, do you want to share my cultiest thing
of the week is there is this new TikTok cult
that's going around. It's called Children of the Waning Star.
Thank you. You just obsessed with TikTok. That's great. So
you've seen that people are putting in the star and
the fingerprint emoji, and then immediately rumors are starting of

(02:24):
like people are sacrificing their pets and all of these
horrible things, and at the end of the day, none
of that is actually happening. But the TikTok algorithm and
itself is a cult, and all of the most extreme
things that it can get its hand on, it just
its hands. The algorithm has hand and hands, it just

(02:48):
pushes it out. And the more extreme of belief, the
more extreme a piece of news, whether it be real
or fake, boom, it's out there the end. And now
people think that this is a real cult. So you know,
we do. We try to keep it topical. That's what's
happening this week. That's interesting.

Speaker 4 (03:05):
We we it's so interesting because we talk about cults
a lot. But then there's a whole part of the
Internet that's so obsessed with cults that they'll get fixated
on deciding that something is a cult, right, and then
they kind of become their own cult because they're obsessed
with taking down the cold and a lot of the
time it's completely exaggerated or just like taking out of contact,
you know, that kind of thing, and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
They'll be like a small comment and then that'll be
the news story.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
It's just like the problem is the like solution, not
the problem.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yes, exactly, exactly now in this particular case, although we
do see a lot of real online cults popping up
loved and right, which again their lives.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
There's so many and it's so wild to start to
understand that people live so much online these days. That
to someone like me, who the Internet started when I
was in my mid twenties, so.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
I just like take it or leave it.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
But there's people who live on it constantly, So that
idea of somehow suddenly following someone being with them every
day like that, getting kind of inundated by that is
very common these days.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Totally.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
Yeah, we're like at the peak loneliness in America like
ever in history. So of course we're going to look
online for community and for some source of identity. And
there are so many hucksters out there ready and willing
to sell you on something to provide that answer to you.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Absolutely, like podcasts.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, for example, Yeah, the time.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Is now, well, what's your cultiest thing?

Speaker 4 (04:24):
I'm kind of stealing it from Megan actually, So I'm
always fascinated by the way that cults and authoritarian regimes
love to limit evidence based information. They like to attack
science and make you basically stop believing in reality so
that they can fit their own truth in there. We
know that that's happening in the current Trump administration with

(04:46):
four hundred and two attacks on science, and there are
a number of reasons for that. But actually connecting to
that is a poem that somebody from Megan's cult that
she grew up in which we will talk about, wrote,
who has been accused of a lot of.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
I don't I'm not sure if he wrote it. He
shared it, but he shared it. He shared this, but
he's just been accused of acting inappropriately with minors. And
the two by twos, which is my called love a
good poem, and by good poem I mean back, go ahead.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
Okay, I'm only going to read the first half because
this will take too long. But okay, if you know
of a thing that will darken the joy of a man,
a woman, a girl, or a boy, that will wipe
out a smile, or the least way a noy or
be the thing their hope to destroy, the best thing
to do is forget it all caps. If you know
of a thing that will saden the heart or hinder

(05:37):
any from doing their part, or cause an old wound,
to sting or to smart. Don't be the one to
give it a start, be the one who can forget
it all caps.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
It goes on.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
This whole time. I haven't needed to be on pharmaceuticals.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
You just forget your problem.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Why is this the first time hearing about this?

Speaker 4 (06:00):
It's just like it's so fascinating because of course somebody
who's been accused of something is like, well, I don't
think those negative thoughts. Just forget it, don't worry about
the things that maybe make you uncomfortable or are very
alarming or a crime.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Just to get it.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Just because something rhymes doesn't mean it's right.

Speaker 4 (06:15):
And that is the rhyme as a reason.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Effect that really Yeah, shut up, tell me more.

Speaker 4 (06:20):
Oh that's a cognitive bias more Noxy Amanda, noxy Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She talked about that on our show at one point.
If something the easier information needs to process, the more
likely we are to believe it's true. So rhyming can
actually make things feel more true.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
It's like the headline if that's sallacious, It doesn't matter
what's in the article exactly. The thing that you see
first is like the rhyme.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
Or love don't fit, you must quit?

Speaker 2 (06:42):
Oh, I love that.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Were full of things like that. What's your cult?

Speaker 3 (06:53):
Think?

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Okay? My cult? And you could also call it alcoholism.
Probably is rose. It's weird how obsessed I've become with it,
as like what it means to my day. I'm not
trying to drink it all the time, but when I do,
I feel like I'm having a better day. Yeah, and
it's become I don't even want any other alcohol. There's
no alcohol in the house, I won't drink it. But
if there's rose. Does that sound like I drink too much?

Speaker 1 (07:17):
How much do you drink once you finally make the decision?

Speaker 2 (07:20):
And not like a can? Okay? And that's the other
thing too, like a can of wine.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
Listen, I use diet coke as my cultiest thing one
week and I already shared with y'all. You guys have
a plethora of diet coke and the refrigerator here at
this beautiful studio. We all belong to the cult diet
And yeah, I think that the brands or things can
become culty and they give us comfort, they give us.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
We can't we have this loyalty. Yeah, someone offers me
a DIEPEPSI. I'm like, excuse right, Yeah, itactly.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Says something about the user or the person who you know.
It says something about me that I'm not If I'm
drinking a beer, that's one thing. I'm drinking a rose.
To me, it's a totally different things.

Speaker 4 (08:00):
As someone who has never had alcohol in her life
due to my Mormon upbringing, I cannot relate to this,
but I like how it sounds.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
It looks, it looks good.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
And someone who's no longer allowed to have alcohol because
I've had too much of it, I also like how
it sounds. It's all very very familiar.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
Well, I mean because I was kind of I couldn't
decide because I think there's a lot of things I
do in my life that are very culty or like
I love to fall into a little rhythm and habit.
That's like something I really can do and rely on.
So then it's like, great, it'll be mindless. I'll just
every morning, I'll have a Vanola latte or every blah,
I'll do this and it'll get me through. But lately

(08:41):
and going back to TikTok, shopping for clothes on TikTok
where there's no way the size is going to be right.
There's no way the material is going to be what
I want it to be or what the picture looks like.
It's truly rolling the dice Las Vegas style and knowing
you're going to lose and doing it anyway. I ordered
a shirt that I tried on this morning that I

(09:03):
couldn't stop laughing because it felt like it was made
of wax. It was the weirdest texture. It was the
where I was like, well, it was only nine dollars,
so what was I thinking? That I was just going
to get a gorgeous blouse from my next dinner party.
And I keep going back. I won't be convinced that
it's going to not work the next time.

Speaker 4 (09:20):
Okay, but that's because sometimes it does work. And intermittent reinforcement,
which is.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
How cold were You get a nine dollars shirt that
is actually one hundred percent cotton and you're like, wait,
you can't find these for eighty dollars in America? Like
there is a treasure hunt aspect to it.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
You get addicted to, like is this going to be
the good one?

Speaker 3 (09:40):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (09:40):
Actually not right?

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yes, almost never.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
And that dopamine hit too, like I have the shopping
dopamine hit of like fine, like with beIN to shopping,
like finding a treasure. Yeah, but there's been so much
trash and I you know, and that doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
I'll still yeah never Yeah, Yeah, it's hard to adjust.
I'm obsessed.

Speaker 3 (09:59):
Well amazing. I mean, like, if you liked what we
just did right there, you're going to You're going to
love Lowland Megan show.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
So let's talk about everyone's favorite thing. Red flags. Yes,
what are some red flags you can tell us about?
Like the intermittent.

Speaker 4 (10:18):
Reinforcements and then the rhyming thing was called the rhyme
as reason.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Thank you? So red flags?

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yes, love bombing huge. That'll probably be the first thing
you'll you'll notice, how does that.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
Look when it's not in a relationship, because I know
love bombing when it's you know, in a relationship like personal.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Remand it'll just look like, oh my gosh, you're exactly
a right fit for this. Lots of personal attention, lots
of everything you've been wanting and needing. Who doesn't love
personal attention? Or I can't come from a group, it
can come from a person, and it's very addicting.

Speaker 4 (10:54):
Yeah, I mean the term I believe comes from cults.
Originally it was a tactic used to recruit people, where
like the girls would go out and be like oh
my gosh, yeah yes, so yeah, I agree with that one.
I think also when like, okay, so I did the
could you talk about scientology? To talk about scientology? I

(11:16):
did the like scientology stress test one time, and what
the result? First of all, the IQ test was nonsense.
It was completely like it didn't make sense. It wasn't
based on IQ translating no. But the end of it,
they basically like told me how in danger I am
and how they could provide the solution. They were like
you are so anxious, and I was like, yes, true, However,

(11:39):
I'm not going to pay all of the money you
are telling me to pay to go to your courses.
There's like a breaking down of like, oh no, there's
something wrong with you, and then providing the solution.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
And that's I think why these online cults are really
powerful too, because they offer easy solutions. So a lot
of them start off with diets. We're gonna this is
our little like shake regiment that I made up, and
you're gonna love it. And you're like, I I want
to lose some weight. Let's say, Okay, I'm on my
shake regiment and I'm losing my weight. Yeay, Suddenly weirder

(12:12):
and weirder things start to be introduced. But you've already
been primed that it's a working, normal thing to do,
and now you're in a group of other people who
are doing it who are also like, no, it seems normal.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
That's I've never thought of that being like a gateway
to something that has nothing to do with nutrition and
diet and stuff.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, and we wonder sometimes if they're if it's conscious
that they went that way, or because like, once you're hungry, right,
you're more susceptible too, that's for sure, no blood sugar go.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah, then when people do accept you, you're more excited.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Right, It's like the.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
Lows and the highs are lower and higher.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
Exactly. Food is just a really easy way to grab
people because it's a need that we all you know,
like it's it's an easy one. So we can see
that a lot playing out.

Speaker 4 (12:58):
Yeah, and whenever is a strong inclination to make you
feel afraid of like a different group, that's like a
huge one because that fear is something that can then
be capitalized on to again offer you a solution to
all of that fear you're feeling.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
And like to prove you right because other people around
you feel the same way.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
So yeah, yeah, and to just simplify that and even
whether it's like even if you're in a narcissistic or
abusive which we know, like gets narcissistic gets thrown around
a lot, but yeah, but if you're a narcissistic or
abusive relationship, very soon after the love bombing phase, it's
going to be like your friends are awful isolating you.

(13:41):
So you can kind of see it play out on
a stage that might be more normal or grounded for people,
because who hasn't who hasn't gotten involved with somebody like that?

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, and my friends are crazy. So if someone else
points out like that fact, it's true what I love
about them exactly. It's so interesting. It's sounds so similar
to a romantic relationship with the love bombing and the
like abusive controlling stuff. Are certain people more susceptible to that?
Do you think than others? I'm such a cynic, I

(14:12):
can't imagine, but that's part of it, right, Like that's
what could be used against me.

Speaker 4 (14:16):
I mean exactly what could be used against you is
a cult of cynical people who are like, I would
never join a cult, right, let's talk about it together
for hours on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we like,
that's something we talk about a lot. But what we
find over and over and over again is they're all
kinds of people that join. Women seem to be more
open to talking about, but men also join, and it's

(14:39):
really more about where they are in their life that
makes them maybe a little bit more vulnerable to manipulation
in that moment, but it's not necessarily a personality trait
that recurs.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yeah, if you're going through a breakup, if you're going
through financial hardship, if you've lost somebody, just be really
careful because people prey upon you because you're looking for
an answer, you're not grounded like usually with or you're just.

Speaker 4 (15:02):
Young and open minded, because people get targeted just because
they're young a lot.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
You know, that's right. So this show has been going
on for five years.

Speaker 4 (15:10):
It's so crazy to hear you say, I believe it's
been five years.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
What the hell?

Speaker 3 (15:14):
And you guys kicked it off by talking Lola about
your background, and so do you want to tell us
a little bit about that.

Speaker 4 (15:20):
Yeah, so I was raised just a regular Mormon, just
a mainstream Mormon, which is not the polygamous kind for
those who get confused about that. And my after my
parents got divorced, my mom was a single lady who
had been excommunicated from the church and had gone through
this whole process of rebuilding her repenting basically, and a

(15:42):
man targeted her at a Mormon singles dance and spent
several months basically convincing her. She didn't believe him at first,
of course, but spent several months preying upon her Mormon
believes to convince her that he was the new prophet
of God. The context for this, which I think is
really important, is that one the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith,

(16:06):
was a guy in the eighteen hundreds who just was like,
I had a vision.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
I got the new church.

Speaker 4 (16:11):
I'm gonna do it. And so the whole like foundation
of the religion is basically like a guy being like
I had a vision. So it leaves room for other
guys to come along. And also there's a part of
the belief system where there's like part of the scripture
was hidden away until the end times. So there have
been numerous men at this point who have been like

(16:32):
I found the hidden scripture called the Sealed Portion. And
to make matters significantly worse, maybe the most important detail
here is that my mom had had a dream prior
to meeting this man, about a man that she would meet,
and it felt really significant, and he had this very
specific look. She said, it looked like Brendan Fraser. And

(16:57):
she meets this guy at the dance and he looks
just like the guy from her dream. And she's been
in this Mormon culture where you dreams are really important
and signs from God are really important. So he was
able to prey upon that. He recognized that, and over
time he did indoctri nate her, and we were eventually
separated at his command, and she had a very harrowing

(17:18):
experience on her own, which we don't necessarily need to
get into today, but we did get out, and we
are much better now and we talk about it very openly,
and now my mom is an advocate for people who
are in cults and leaving cults.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Incredible, it's amazing.

Speaker 3 (17:32):
Wow, that's really something as kind of like you through
the eyes of a child, kind of like had that experience,
which I think I wonder the difference there because an
adults going in with the ego of I would never
be convinced or you can't. I'm not going to do
something I wouldn't believe, as opposed to kind of the
open mind of a child of like, I'm seeing all

(17:54):
of this and what Like. Do you think that you
had an insight that maybe your mother didn't have because
you were young and less experienced.

Speaker 4 (18:03):
No, but but I will say I had witnessed my mom.
My mom is like just sees the best in everyone,
and there are like that certain just like anti social
personality types are really drawn to people like her. So
I had seen a couple of people already kind of
target her in the past. I was I was very

(18:24):
I was skeptical of him at first, but I think
it was just because of that experience. And then the
minute I like found their letter their emails to each
other about how he was prophet, I was like, oh, sick,
he's a prophet. This is so cool, no profit, Yeah,
and then I was chosen by God to to like
help bring about the end of days, you know, So
that was cool, yes, And that's on.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Our first episode that we ever, did we go fully
into that?

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, what was the process of like extracting
yourself and your own and becoming your own person outside
of that, you know, big question? Step by step?

Speaker 4 (19:04):
Well, she actually so a met She was, uh, what
is the best way to phrase this? So there had
been men that had come to where she was staying,
where she'd been told to stay, and there was a
man who had come there basically because the prophet was like, hey,
you can go. There's this woman you can go take
advantage of. He saw what she was living through and

(19:26):
broke down crying and got her out, which is not
usually how things go, but he just felt so bad.
He's actually still in our lives. But after that, I mean, honestly,
it was a year's long process. I mean we didn't
really talk about it for years, like it was just
kind of something we pretended didn't happen. And then my
mom started talking about it openly, and then she got
her PhD in media psychology, and now we like, you know,

(19:49):
we've processed the fuck out of it.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
That's amazing, But it took a long time. Yeah, yeah,
that's great. And Megan, do you want to talk about
your Yeah, sure, I wish it had been processed. It's not.
But I'm fourth generation on both sides of my family.
Two by two, So some people call it it doesn't
technically have a name, which is baked into the cultiness

(20:14):
of it. Some people call it the truth the way
the two by Two's basically if you were super into
Archie comic books when you were younger, you might have
been a part of it. That's like one of the
big tells is that we were all given a bunch
of Archies. Really yeah, I don't know why, but sometimes
people are like, that's not the one I was in,
And then I'm like, is it the Archie one?

Speaker 2 (20:34):
And they're like, yeah, that's the tell.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
Did they change the contents to make it like Archie's supporting?

Speaker 2 (20:41):
No, okay, is it about Archie.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
We weren't allowed to have television, we weren't allowed to
watch movies, we weren't supposed to do anything entertaining. So
for some reason people were like, let them read archiees.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Wow, at least they.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
Can do that, And we did a ghost from nineteen
fifty two. Yeah, yeah, yeaheah.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
It's such an interesting fact, like a little headbit you
never see someone with an archie tattoo.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
You're like, what's up? That's uh yeah, what was like
the basic tenet of that? That's a great question. So
since they haven't written anything down, really nobody knows. Essentially,
this man named William Irvine had a what I would
call a manic episode in like eighteen ninety seven where
he got really depressed on New Year's Eve and was like,

(21:27):
I found a verse. I think it's a Matthew that
was like, I'll send them out two by two and
they'll have no home and they'll go out and lah
la la lah. And he was like that, and so
he was very he was like the Scotsman, very charismatic,
and he started this homeless ministry. We go out to
by two and we have no possessions, and people loved

(21:48):
it and Ireland you know, well, actually I'll back up
a second. People hated it, but some people love. The
people who loved it, Yeah, the people who loved it
loved it. People who he was telling they were going
to hell and like this church is evil. That church
is evil. Any church that's not our church is evil.
They were like, shut up. And there's so many newspaper

(22:08):
clippings that now I've seen at the time where people
are like, William's on it again, and like he's often preaching,
but he ends up losing his mind completely and he's
excommunicated and he ends up dying in Israel in like
nineteen fourteen, and is just kind of maybe later, maybe
nineteen twenty something, but he's written out of the history
of it. They're embarrassed of him going off the deep end.

(22:31):
They don't want to talk about it. They have a
pretty big following at this point, and they're like, let's
just write him out. It came from Jesus, Okay, so
there's no founder. We're going back, We're going way back,
and so they just decided to erase him. So when
I'm growing up, fourth generation, where when did your church start?
I don't know about William. I've never heard about William.

(22:52):
I go it started from Jesus, and that's what we
all thought. And so the basic tenants are that strange
people lived in our homes because they don't have a house.
That we went to a lot of church. It's pretty
much like being Amish, but also living in the normal world.
There's a verse in the Bible that says you should

(23:14):
be in the world, not of the world. So Amish
people are wrong because they've taken themselves out of the world.
So who cares if you're righteous and like sweet out
where no one can see. Right, you need to be
among the sinners, but you need to be so weird
that people go, there's something different about you.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Why have that?

Speaker 3 (23:34):
We have that?

Speaker 4 (23:37):
What is it?

Speaker 1 (23:37):
And then you go, it's Jesus, Jesus, that's my big secret.
That's a big secret. And the amount of secrecy and level,
I mean, we really lived a lot like homish people
while going to normal schools, having normal jobs. But I
didn't know like people would be like, did you see
Saturday Night Live? And I was like, what the heck

(23:59):
is that? Yeah, yeah, no clue.

Speaker 4 (24:01):
And you had to wear long dresses.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
Oh yeah, I got to wear really long jean skirts
and buns and you know you couldn't cut your hair. No, yeah,
this bob is an act of rebellion. Yeah right, yeah, decision.

Speaker 4 (24:16):
We all have books.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Exactly, not susceptible, and yeah we had to wear and buns.
I luckily did rebel. My friends would bring me clothes
to school. When I got a little bit older, you know, like,
so I could wear some jeans, but yeah, and you
were you really weren't supposed to do and my mom didn't. Yeah,
so when did you get out?

Speaker 2 (24:41):
And like when did you?

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Well? The day my parents dropped me out at college,
I was like, bye, thank you. But you know I
was supposed to go every Sunday and Wednesday and Sunday afternoon.
I was too busy studying for that. Ye did you
get incredible grades? I was getting incredible, so you know

(25:02):
I never really went back.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Another little tenant of this is that the children and
the church profess and then you start speaking and the meetings,
So you don't go to a church building where somebody
speaks at you. You meet in homes and everybody who's
professed shares. So I would have to like pick a
verse every week, and like I'm supposed to be teaching

(25:25):
people about the Bible. My least favorite book of all time.
All I like is The Babysitters Club and like doing
everything the opposite of it. So I just stopped going.
I stopped speaking when I went. But the fear was
so so heavy because this is a religion that doesn't
celebrate Christmas. It doesn't celebrate Easter. It's like those are

(25:46):
making light of Jesus. He's not like a little chick
lit for a Easter bunny kind of dude. He's like,
He's bringing the wrath of God and we're all going
to help. Even the people in it, most of them
believe that they're going to. So I was very scared,
and it really wasn't until this podcast that I even
had some hope of like unwinding it, because even though

(26:09):
my big brain was like this is ridiculous, my other
brain was like, no, yes, yeah, that's the way I mean.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
At the beginning when you were describing that, I'm like,
this is the Catholic Church essentially without the skirts. But
I do think maybe it's not even the Catholic Church.
It's just that mindset, which is they're bad and we're
good and trying to like live through. So basically anything
we do is justified because they're bad. And having those
thoughts as a kid is a very weird feeling because

(26:43):
you're like, I never questioned it, but I would have that,
like I think I've told Jeorgia this a bunch of times.
Driving to church, I would see little kids playing in
the front yard at their house. And be like, oh,
that's too bad, they're going to burn in hell, And
truly just kind of very lightly.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
Feel that pity for people.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
Whereas like a course, when I got into college, same
thing where I met a bunch of people outside of
my town and faith and everything, where I was just like,
all these people are not burning in hell. They just
this is illogical and that kind of thing of like
it's just weird when it's inside you like that.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
It's just like built in, you built them completely, yeah
yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (27:19):
And Mormonism too, we are the chosen ones. We didn't
necessarily believe in hell in the traditional sense, but a
lower tier of heaven. Everyone else has went to a
lower tier.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, condos versus mansions or bottle service and VIP versus
just like the regular closed.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Just like earth.

Speaker 4 (27:39):
Like if you're a bad person, heaven is just like
the normal world. But if you're if you do the right,
yeah way, that's a good ass heaven.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
Wow. But like just teaching kids in general that they
can like, like being burnt is so painful, and teaching
somebody that they can be like that for eternity, that's
so mean, that's so like, really stop it.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
That's what you have to do to get children to
believe in our adults even to believe in what you're preaching.
That just seems a little bit like, I don't know
if you can back that up, then.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
You can't back that up, But you don't have to
back it up because it's a matter of faith, no questioning.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
Yeah, So basically do you both know, Well, you just
described it. The moments you had your doubt was essentially
like you're saying, being out in the real world.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
When I was really little, I was like, she was
a questioner, Like, I don't like it. But my problem
was I was I was like super dyslexic, I had
ad D and I was from a family with very
educated adults who had quote unquote high power jobs, and
so I was like, they're smarter than me, so I

(28:46):
must be missing something. So that was kind of my experience.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
Oh, I've never heard you said that before.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeahind of dissonance where I was like, doubting yourself, your hones.
If I can't read and this person's a surgeon, then
they're probably right.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, as so as your family is still involved totally
more generations, that just is a hard thing to break.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
They are yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Wow, yeah, and are you accepted?

Speaker 1 (29:10):
And I just got back from family vacation with them.
I couldn't love them more. You know, a lot of
people are pretty over it. There was just a very
big exposure in the two by two system where if
you have people staying in people's homes, that's like a
vision board for pedophiles to get involved in the ground,

(29:31):
and they've been covering.

Speaker 4 (29:32):
It up and another Catholic church similarity.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yes, except that they're sleeping in your house for a week,
you know, so you don't you don't get that break.
So a lot of people are just writing their two
by two family members off, we're over it. I'm kind
of going a different route. It's for each to decide. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, it's a very personal thing. Wow, that's incredible.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, it's it's it's a wild time. It's really it's
really crazy.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
Well, but I think it's like that's what George and
I we're so excited when we knew that your podcast
was looking for a home because being able to come
from a point of view when you are talking to
people who just got out, like that level of empathy
from the framework from which you are speaking is very rare,
I mean, like it if at all. So I think

(30:17):
it's just it's such an advantage that you guys have
because you have the experience and you have the empathy
and you have the interest, but you also aren't. It's
not like you're like we are right now, we're like, wait,
how did it happen? And why would it happen or whatever.
You guys absolutely know how, the how and why usually,
so you're right there with people when they're telling their story.

Speaker 4 (30:37):
Thank you. Yeah, that's the goal. Like before I found Megan,
when I first had the idea for this podcast, I
just was listening to cult podcasts and felt they all
felt so gawky. Yeah, like look how crazy this was,
So you know, I would never.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Want I feel like that's kind of me a little
and I feel guilty, like I wasn't raised in any
religion that was very like with mandatory in any way,
so it's so hard for me to understand that, and
therefore I feel like I lack a little bit of
the empathy that you guys A.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Lot of people do.

Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean one of my original things
that originally made me think of it was I was
watching a video about Jonestown and reading some of the comments,
and all the comments were like.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
You does you know?

Speaker 4 (31:13):
And I was like no, no, no, especially because you know,
my mom being so much in the app doing so
much advocacy in the cult world, I've met so many
people who have advanced degrees who are like wildly intelligent,
you know, very successful, talented, Like it's just everybody is susceptible,
And that was one of the Yeah, that's the perspective

(31:33):
we want to come from, is that like, these are
just human people. We're having conversations. Everybody's smart, Like there's
this isn't there's nothing wrong with you if this happened
to you.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, that's so important.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
So, speaking of in your premiere episode for exactly right here,
you guys interviewed Equina Cox, who was raised in the
Unification Church, which some people call the Moonies, which we've
discussed many times on the podcast. Was there anything in
that conversation that stood out to you or that was
surprising to you? You guys have five hundred episodes, you
still get surprised.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
Ever, Well, we had an interview with someone who'd actually
participated in a mass wedding before, right because I don't
think Steve did. No, he never, he didn't get married
that way. It's not that it was surprising to learn
that it happened. It's just like so interesting to get
the first hand perspective of somebody who had been through
that and her parents as well.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, Because in San Francisco Bay area we used to
that would be on like the seven o'clock news all
the time because the Unification Church really kind of posted
up in San Francisco. There were so many people kind
of left over from the you know, nineteen sixty nine
kind of drug autal thing, and so they were picking
people in the i'd say mint to late seventies. It

(32:42):
happened constantly, and I think it was part of the
local news's way of saying look out or this is
a group that you should be aware of or something.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
But they would show the footage of ten thousand people.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Getting married at one time, and I remember just like
sitting there and turning to my mom like wait, what
is this and she's just like the MOONI is like,
you know, all we know about them or whatever. But
it was that kind of like it's weird to me
how much they put it in front of us at
the time seemed to me to message that kind of
like look.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
Out, these people are around. I really needed somebody to
do that for the two by choose. Hopefully I'm doing.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
That even if they did four generations, like what could
you have done?

Speaker 2 (33:27):
And you did it?

Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, yeah, but to your point exactly, like we need
people to say, hey, look at what they're doing. It's weird.
Otherwise you're like, is what normal?

Speaker 4 (33:37):
I don't know, But when you're in and it feels
so normal.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
I know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
And the physical abuse. She really shocked me with what
they in the Nation church.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, like from childhood.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
She was in there, and it was it's like a part,
it's like a ritual, it's part of the practice. But
I guess you guys have probably talked about it before.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, So she she really
shook us up a bit.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
Also, she's so cool. Yeah, she's so funny.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah. I floated us being friends in real life on
the interview and she was like, maybe on the list,
let me know, let me know when I'm in your group.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
That's so funny.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (34:19):
I think one of the things about you know, publicizing
the mess weddings and like while it's important to draw
attention to stuff like that. It also can create a
huge stigma around people who are still in the group,
like a versus them, like they're weirdos, they're evil, they're bad.
And we see that a lot where the people who
are actually victims of the group are treated as though

(34:40):
they are perpetrators, like.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
They're coming out with shame.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah, and just you know, having family members who are
still in are knowing people who are still in the
two by twos who are wonderful people. Uh, it makes
me feel really protective of them. And I absolutely, like
we said earlier, understand being like, well, they just need
to do their research. But you're just taught like, don't

(35:04):
look into this kind of stuff, don't question if it's generations.

Speaker 4 (35:07):
Deep, it's some serious indoctrination, really deep.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
So yeah, I just try to hold space for people
who are in.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
It, and that's generous.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
And I just want to shout out something that's been
going on with my mom because we talk about this
idea a lot of staying connected to people who are
still in the group instead of shunning them. Right, because
there will be some media on this part of my
mom's journey, but after her experience. She ended up moving
to the FLDS town of Colorado City, which is where

(35:38):
all the polygamists live for those who don't know, and
just was nice to people and was like an outsider
who had was like one of the first outsiders. Just
be nice to them, and through these relationships that she created,
she ended up actually getting to know the new self
proclaimed profit after Warren Jeffs went to prison and ended
up going undercover for the FBI.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
I didn't expect that, or didn't expect.

Speaker 4 (36:03):
Because now she had earned their trust, and she had
earned the trust of some of the victims of him
who finally came out to her, and she was able
to get them to tell their stories to the FBI.
So it can be also just really powerful for actually
helping people connected to them.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
If she was just like judge, judge, you're wrong, they
help you out of this, it would not have happened.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
Yes, people need who are in a group like that
and are isolated from any outsiders like do need some connection,
some safe connection outside of the group in order for
anything to ever right.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
You no bring I'm glad you brought that up, because
you know who else is being investigated by the FBI
tell us by two, did the FBI come to my house?

Speaker 4 (36:43):
They?

Speaker 1 (36:44):
Yeah, so that's good. You know, it's bringing attention and
putting the authority figures who are actually the ones moving
these purpse around secretly harboring money that you know, the
spotlight on to them. So it could actually change something. Gosh,
I hope so.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
And you're right, I mean, I think that piece of
it of like and they we talked about that a
lot in this day and age, in this political climate
or whatever, where it's like, when people feel so identified
with a group that's so far over into one area,
if they don't think they have anywhere to come back to,
then there's no point in ever even trying to because
it's hard enough. I'm you know, I assume it's hard

(37:27):
enough to leave, much less to leave and believe that
everyone's judging you once you get out the door.

Speaker 4 (37:33):
Yes, there's got to be some support system or something.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, bridging that gap and just you know, and if
it's not for you, that's fine. But we talked to
what was his name, Frank, who was going to dinner parties, you.

Speaker 4 (37:45):
Mean, the white supremacist who was that? So Frank was
the one whose boss was Jewish. He was the neo Nazi.
But then are Derek Black now known as Adrian Black.
She was the one who was David Duke's poster or child.
She has denounced white supremacy and racism and has now
you know, come out as trans. But she was invited

(38:07):
to dinner parties by some Jewish friends and over time,
like because she forged these new connections with people, it
was like what broke through her ideology?

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Wow?

Speaker 2 (38:17):
Did they know who she was when she was like
on the radio, like she had a radio program for
white supremacy and they were just being generous. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:25):
And my one of my best friends, Abuta, who I love.
Yeah yeah, it was her brother, who is one of
these people.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
Who tiny world.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, you realized the world. But but it's all to
say you don't have to have the dinner parties. Like
some people are like, oh I don't, definitely not. I
don't want to have that party and I don't have
the capacity to. And that's fine. But if you can
have a dinner party or if you can have a
conversation and it doesn't send you into a spiral, then
that's great.

Speaker 4 (38:50):
It helps everyone's unique and everyone's role is different and
not everyone is destined to pull people out of cold I.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Know, I would say, maybe leave it to the people.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
We're really good at dinner parties, very good at small talk,
right welcome at being welcoming without judgment.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Very few of us in this world. I actually really
like that.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, I think it's a good thing to strive poor,
because I do. There is a part of me that
feels really guilty about, you know, the way I have considered.
I would never you know, but I've been a twenty
year old girl. I've been in my thirties depressed. Like there,
We've all been at certain places in our lives, or
we're susceptible to whatever level of influence someone else, you know,
wants to totally put on you.

Speaker 3 (39:31):
Also, I think it does make us feel better if
when you go through the world kind of having a
cynical eye toward things you do. You know you're missing
out on stuff, but you're like not going to evolve
for it, and so then there is that little it's
like the cold comfort of telling yourself like I was
smarter than everybody where it was like, and you.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Didn't get invited to any dinner parties because of it.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
So there is, you know.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
I think it's that it's like probably less guilt and
more of like you're an automatic cynic because of how
you were raised. Same with me, where I'm just like
I'll see you coming from a mile away, But it
doesn't make me smarter, because every human being has the
kind of needs that if you're not getting those needs met,
any old group can come along and be like, come

(40:12):
be in our band and then yeah, exactly, yeah, And.

Speaker 4 (40:16):
Like Megan, we have very different sensibilities. Yes, in our lives.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
I'm a scientist of the metaphysical.

Speaker 4 (40:26):
Megan loves magic yay, I love science and trolling me
I believe in nothing. But like we talk about how
any time we have a cult on the podcast that's
like a more spiritual metaphysical new age, one like Megan

(40:50):
would join. And that's what we traditionally think of cold
saz like either religious or that. But then you got
these like self help programs and these ones that are
more for like making you achieve or like making Yeah,
yeah that's the one that I would.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
And I'm just thinking about like jonestown with some religious leaders.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
You're such an exiom, right you would?

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Twenty five Georgia would have fucking signed out the immediately
learned it and.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Should we play the game.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
Since we're talking about this second way, let's do it.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Let's do it.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
So it's time for would you join this cult with
the gals from Trust Me?

Speaker 4 (41:32):
Well?

Speaker 1 (41:32):
This one I covered this one.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
It was the Sarah Lawrence dorm dad who moved into
the dorms and basically started a very tiny cult with
his daughter's friends.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
Yeah, I interviewed them. That was a great episode.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
It's so sad because they seem so normal.

Speaker 4 (41:48):
They are, They're cool and normal, like all of all
of our guests are, of course, and so manipulated. That
guy is endlessly fascinating to me. You don't get video
of like the actual abuse that often, right, and the
fact that it's all like on he was there was
all filming on their selves and you can just see
him talking to that.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
It's just like so compelling. I can't remember if he
was saying he was in the CIA, like yeah, and
just had this big story. I'm very drawn to kind
of narcissistic wires. Yeah, your friend's dad to know, So
if your friend's dad is like I wasn't, I'd like, okay, Yeah,

(42:30):
I totally see how that happened.

Speaker 4 (42:32):
I would see him as an authority figure for sure. Yeah,
join that ship.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
That's a double. Yes, the dorm dad cult is going
to be fully occupied.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
So would you join the Manson family? Okay, let's go
early on? Yeah, early on, I see you early on.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
Totally a good a good commune, hot people. It's dropped
back at some pictures, some nice drugs, drugs. Yeah you would,
I know, yeah, yes, I.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
Feel like for me, the like once they move out
into like the desert with no plumbing and no, my
eye would have been.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, and once we start getting into murdering people, I'm talking.

Speaker 4 (43:12):
Absolutely, but like it's always before we know about the
bad stuff. Would you join in the beginning?

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, one hundred and fifty billion persons right.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
I would say no, only because I think the early
days would have been all those like kind of like
hang out drug parties with the beach boys and stuff.
And I know Charles Manson sat around playing the acoustic guitar.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
At this part.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
So if people were like, we're going to his farm,
I'd be like absolutely, so heartbreaking.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
I love this guy, and then you hear his band
and like, oh, I cannot do this.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. That's a good poe.

Speaker 4 (43:44):
I don't think. I think it depends on who I'm
exposed to initially, because I think I would have been
drawn to like text the sorry.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Text, textext, watch the guy guy.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
I don't remember what text looks like.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Is he hot?

Speaker 4 (43:56):
Yeah, just a tall cowboys some have more dangerous Okay, Okay,
then well then probably she's like, is he available? Now?

Speaker 1 (44:06):
I think I would have.

Speaker 4 (44:07):
Been drawn in general to like the counter culture groups
that were happening at that time, because I'm like anti kampaloush.
You know, I don't know if it would have been
that specific one yea, yeah, okay, but I would I
would want to hang out with the beach boy though,
for sure.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
Absolutely, Yeah they were un scene. What about the Alamo
Christian Foundation. They were the ones that did the airbrush
gene Jackets in the eighties as Jane Jackets Jackets men
as a way to do as a way to make money,
Christian based. It was all about the woman, all about
the wife in the beginning, and.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
Then she died and like the boyfriend husband took over.
There's this really great documentary that just came out about it.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
I just covered it.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
That was just I had never heard of it before.
But yeah, I ever heard of it.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
But yeah, this is embarrassing.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
No, it's Ministry of Evil, Ministry of Evil documentary, I mean.

Speaker 3 (44:55):
But it's kind of similar to Children of God. I
think in that way, they were like the la people
who were left over from the sixties, still hanging around,
you know, partying purpose. Yeah, and they're just kind of like, well,
how about this purpose. I think they also used flirty
fishing styles to get men in like hot women. And
at one point they all lived in an apartment off

(45:18):
Crescent Heights and there was like a thirteen.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Hundred people in the house or apartment something like that.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
But this is what I think.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
It's a good point. Like, yeah, maybe it was three
hundred different but that's a good point though. Like I
wonder about the people who back then were hippies and
they were doing all these things that were against what
they were raised in, and they were still looking for
God but being themselves. I bet that was more susceptible
than just the people who were just trying to look
for a commune had nothing to do with God.

Speaker 4 (45:47):
Yeah, we were talking. We've talked a lot about how
surprising it is how many hippies who were like counterculture
people joined Christian cults that became like hyper conservative.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
Yeah, it's like they still wanted They left their home
home and their hometown and everything, but they still believed, and.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
I still wanted a community, and I think that there
was something baked into the end of the world and
not having saved money that probably appealed to them.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
It makes sense.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, I think that's my guess. Yeah,
so I would probably join it because I have to
saved no money and I love Jean Jackets.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Okay, here's a big one. Ohm Shinrikio. That's the nineteen
eighties and nineties Japanese doomsday cult responsible for the nineteen
ninety five Tokyo subway sarin gas. We have not done.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Yeah, we have somebody who survived it. Wow too, come on, wow,
we do.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yeah, we do. My uncle lived in an apartment as
with roommate who was involved in that. But that's not
interview worthy. I don't think. Maybe maybe yeah, Okay, this one.
The documentary was incredible. Love has won the twenty ten
Spiritual Influencer Culture with Mother god Iman Carlson. It was

(47:06):
a new age cult. I don't know if that's more
special to you guys in any way.

Speaker 4 (47:10):
I would join that one.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
I interviewed her daughter. I think that off the top
of one's head, you might say that I would join,
but I would not because it was I'm trying to
think of how a word this a little bit like
to yoga based.

Speaker 4 (47:27):
No, no, she's into that, Okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
What thing to say is that it was like a
little bit more math rather than like, oh you know
what I mean, like there was a high meth vibe there,
very cluttered dirty. Oh that's true, a nice Yeah.

Speaker 4 (47:45):
Was just the one guy.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
Yeah, but like if we were just there was too
many posters. There was like too many. It was just
you needed to be like Christie, yeah, more like of
a like a goop if Gwynneth had one, you know,
like I need esthetically pleasing watch the sunrise. No, this
was just too many.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
I totally hear you.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
You drink it.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
You don't want to have to be telling people to
clean the kitchen.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
No not adults, No, no, no, no. If we're all
going to live in this farmhouse together, because I'm assuming
I would join this one more as an adult, whereas
I'm thinking myself as a teenage sixties girly when I'm
joining the Mansons. Just so people have like, like, what
part of your life is the person who would yeah, yeah, yeah,

(48:30):
these are these are the days of you.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
I think if you didn't know how they were living
and you saw Amy Carlson's yes.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yes she's great, I know she wasn't great, but I know.

Speaker 4 (48:40):
You would like watch her YouTube videos.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
I totally would. I totally would be susceptible to her.
I did have friends who liked her. I thought maybe
she was a little crazy. But the interesting thing about
Amy is that she did say I think I'm crazy,
and her follower said, no, you're not. Yeah, no, you're not.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
Your God, how do you have many followers if you're crazy?
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (49:01):
And so she kind of tried to back off for it.
She was like, you know what, never mind, and they're like,
no work and the wrap your body on Christmas life.
So that's which also is very methy. That's that whole
thing of like an art.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Project a dead body, as someone who has been on
the before as a younger person, that is very methy.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Oh you haven't heard. That's George George's have Oh I
did not know, so you would join those?

Speaker 2 (49:28):
I would at fourteen, I would have a fourteen team.
Wow know not now no more no for me.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
Now that.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
I want to ask a question, do you guys think
And this might be inflammatory, but is there any like
influencers today? Because I have a lot of friends who
are like, you've got to watch this person's videos or
you've got to listen to this person's podcast. It changed
my life and I'm immediately like all.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Of them are Yeah, a good amount.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
You don't have the name names. But is there like Swan, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (49:56):
Invented home sorrow, but they've both been already sort of
exposed for their behaviors.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
Like I said, I love a good person speaking to aliens,
but they're all full of shit most likely.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
What were you about to say if one isn't? Yeah, just.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
Through did you see you know the brother and sisters
that were the original on Dancing with the Stars, Julian
Huff Have you seen those like? She now has some
sort of actress the beautiful beautiful she was the dancer
on Dancing with the Stars that it was. She's a blonde,
she's she's really perfect. Huh And she has started what
started out as like a wellness company, but she went

(50:34):
to do like the live speaking for it, and people
post the video and they're like, this is absolutely a cult,
like the way she isn't really saying anything, but everyone's
like cheering like crazy, and she's kind of like doing
a little bit of a dance but also is like
we all are going to get to it. And people
say it's like maybe like a little bit of a
born again Christian fundamentalist going in that direction.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Megan's ready to find I can see it.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
We draw the line with.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
Just like being motivated. I mean, think it bolero hats
if we just cut it there, it's like, sorry, we've
gone over the line. We can't trust you over here.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Yeah, I mean yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
I just have an allergy to the level of certainty
that a lot of these people use in how they speak,
and like certainty about things that nobody has certainty on,
you know what I mean, And like a lot of
the people who are selling supplements, for example, like are
there any real scientists on the border.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Of your company? The FDA is not checking it out right, Like, and.

Speaker 4 (51:37):
What's tricky is that so many of these people will
have videos that have really good advice, Like it's not
black and white. There's I hate Jordan Peterson. He's got
a couple of good videos on relationships, you know what
I mean? Teal Swan has a couple of good videos
on relationships. So it doesn't mean that there isn't some
value in like some things that they'll say, but like
how certain are they talking and what do they actually

(51:58):
know about that subject? And are you going to other
sources as well for your information?

Speaker 3 (52:02):
It's almost like it has to have some solid information
at that space, right, because it has to grow from somewhere.
So you're like, this is a person that is giving
me this this kind of insight. If there was no
real insight, you wouldn't stay exactly, So you're getting a
little more of that, Like how can I be on
the grind that Julianne huff is on? Yeah, and you know,
get my eyes real wide?

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
And that's why arguing with them is so annoying for
both of you, because they have the nugget of truth
that they're trying to get you to see, and you
see the mirror of lies and that you're trying to
get them to see, and you both can't and.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
You're just probably harder to explain than theirs is. There's
just just like I just do believe it, and you're like,
but how about yes, yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:44):
Yeah, but I remember I remember making those same arguments
when I was like still very much a Mormon. I
was like, no, but I know, yeah yeah, And like
random people in high school wuld be like, yeah, but
how do you know?

Speaker 2 (52:54):
And I'd be like, I just know, wow, yeah, And
you feel bad for them or you just like didn't.

Speaker 4 (53:00):
I felt bad for them, and I also felt attacked
by them.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
Yeah, of course, well you were that. We were both
seriously fair enough.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
Podcasting is that we all got here?

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Should we pick each pick one of these?

Speaker 4 (53:19):
Do we have different cards or the same cards?

Speaker 2 (53:21):
I don't know what do you have? What's your last one?
I have them?

Speaker 1 (53:25):
If they would join us?

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Yea sure, yeah, oh this one's don't we butted in
on all of these?

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Okay, we already favorite.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
Let's pick your favorite?

Speaker 4 (53:35):
You or us?

Speaker 1 (53:36):
You guys, you guys, go ahead that one. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:39):
Hoyt Richards is a friend of mine who we did
an episode on him. He was a supermodel, a male
supermodel in the nineties who was modeling with all of
the iconic supermodel women. He got drawn into a cult
in the nineties and early two thousands, and it was
like it was all these successful people. Would you are

(54:00):
in a cult full of supermodels?

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Beautiful?

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Everyone is trying to do every day of their life?

Speaker 1 (54:07):
Right?

Speaker 3 (54:08):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (54:08):
When will I get my phone call?

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (54:10):
He did end up getting so supremely isolated and they
made him give up his career and he escaped like
in the night from this compounded stories absolutely crazy, but like, hoy,
it's hot and beautiful.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
People know more than we do.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
Right some time, maybe they must. What about would either
of you guys join Heaven'scape?

Speaker 2 (54:31):
I think early on I would have. Yeah. Why the
alien thing? I think it's just fascinating and like it
never got so big that it felt like you were
like anonymous. You were just part of this spaceship. Maybe
in my twenties.

Speaker 4 (54:45):
You know, are you into aliens? Is that your thing?

Speaker 2 (54:47):
I want to be proven wrong. I want to be
like proven that aliens exist because I don't believe in anything, but.

Speaker 4 (54:55):
You know, I also find aliens very exciting.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
What about a ghost? A ghost? One ghost cult? Is
there a ghost? Is there a ghost?

Speaker 3 (55:02):
And just make up cults, not the trusty I'm initially
starting today.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
I don't feel like I know of a ghost. There's
a cult where somebody channeled somebody dead. Okay, well yeah, but.

Speaker 4 (55:15):
Like I want to be haunted, like it is a
goal of mine to be haunted, since I don't believe anything.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
It's exactly what I feel. It like great, Like I
want to be proven.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Yeah, this is the beginning of a horror movie that
I want.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
No pardon a year and I'm going to be an
alien and You're going to be a ghost.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
No, wait, that means I honestly remember seeing somebody from
Heaven's Gate on the news that that lived one of
those people that like stayed behind maybe people who are
in it, Frank.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Who was he?

Speaker 2 (55:44):
The website? Guys, they left behind someone who knew how
was your website?

Speaker 1 (55:49):
A lot of news ps.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
This is I am older than everybody. I'm a child
of the seventies. My parents watched six and seven o'clock
news and then Jeopardy. So I just said had to
sit there, powering through because I wasn't going to stop
watching TV, whether it was news or any TV.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
No, I didn't care.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
So then I just had a lot of questions, but
that one I just remember when that happened. It was
so shocking, and it was like early nineties, right, yeah,
ninety or ninety one, and there was just an interview
with one of the guys that was left behind and
they asked him why did you join?

Speaker 1 (56:21):
It was like this is so crazy, why would.

Speaker 3 (56:23):
You join this? And he was just like, I don't
know nothing else to do. It was like he had
kind of like low grade depression and just was like
I just don't see what else there is to do.
And when I saw him say that on the news,
I was like, Oh.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
You better be careful with these feelings that you have,
because it.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
Was like, yeah, I know that feeling. Or I'm just
like I just want to sit on the couch and like, ye,
not do anything. And it's like that that is an
opening of like thinking that that mindset is the way
it's always going to be.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
You know, people who are really fired up about something
trigger or something, and others who are maybe a little
more depressive or something, and you can go into it
with the savviness of like, this person's kind of crazy,
I just need a little bit of like things to
dolation still get sucked in even with the prior knowledge.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
I completely understand that. Like when you see someone who's
excited about something, you're like, god, I wish I could
feel that. So maybe I'm gonna fake it until I do,
or like maybe I'm going to force myself to well.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
And also one of the things that they do is
create strong emotional experiences, and you see you keep coming back.
So if you're someone who's like not getting a lot
of those, like that's going to be pretty appealing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Also with the relationships, like I'll be like this guy's
a little insane, Like, but I'm not going I can't
handle all in love with them. I'm just gonna have
some good, you know, hookup situations like no big deal.
And then three months later I'm like ruying, like I
am trapped. What is wrong with you? Literally, and I'm

(57:52):
like all of it everything and I knew or like
it doesn't matter if you know.

Speaker 4 (57:56):
Sometimes get the emotional highs and lows work on you
even if you logically know that they're happening.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
If you've ever gotten in a bad relationship, you are
susceptible to a cult. Everyone on the planet. Everyone.

Speaker 4 (58:11):
Some people have secure attachment styles.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
Podcast I've seen it. God.

Speaker 4 (58:18):
I also shout out because Frank Leiford was the Heaven's
Scaped survivor that we had on our podcast, and his
story is incredible and very very hard.

Speaker 3 (58:28):
Great me happy to hear if it is the same guy.
It makes me happy here because he clearly was into something.
He's stuck around with us.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Yeah, yeah, like it didn't you know what he went into.

Speaker 3 (58:39):
And that's also a thing of like being young and
making that decision such a final and final decision traumatic
for a survivor, all of those things where it's like, yeah,
can you picture maybe in twenty years you will not
feel like this and.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
No, And that's one of the things that the apocalyptic
thinking is so powerful and saving off. And the two
by twos in particular, they when we're all groomed to
want to be workers, that's what it's called. When we
grow up. That means that we don't have any possessions,
we don't get married, we're sell a bit, and we
go live in people's houses forever. And a very good

(59:14):
kind of person is drawn to that life for sure,
who maybe has a little bit of OCD a million
different things. But then a very bad type of person
is also drawn to that. So you have this dichotomy
of personality types that get drawn into the circumstances, all
kinds of agendas, all kind of Yeah, I can.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
See myself joining an apocalypse cult just because it seems exciting,
you know, Like sometimes I'm like I was living in
la for twenty years. It's the same shit every day.
Like if if I knew the end of the world
was coming and like something was going to happen to
all of us and the Lord would make like decision,
I like I could see that being happy.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
As people I know are planning for doomsday, they have
a very strong purpose. It's like packing for nothing else matters, right,
You're like very everyone loves a deadline.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
I feel like that love that sober from my alien
doomsday thing, Like that's the alien doomsday.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
They're kind of a.

Speaker 4 (01:00:07):
Chart of Independence Day in the center Independence Day.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
Yes, watching Independence Day is the center of the documentary,
but it's a documentary.

Speaker 4 (01:00:17):
Mars attacks, Ours attacks.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Yes, that's a good point. That's a good point. And
to the to that good point, like as I joked
about earlier, like I don't have to sayings. I was
not taught to think that tomorrow would come right, And
every time I left the house, it was like, is
that what you want to be wearing when Jesus comes
back to the world?

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Is that what you want to be thinking? Do you
want to do you want to be in the movie
theater when Jesus comes back? And you'd be like, no,
I guess not, but like I really wanted to see clueless.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
Yes, I'm just a human being trying to figure it out.
And and a lot of people who were in that
group do have sayings accounts and were able to think
rationally about things and hold both things at one. I
think some people aren't ander, like, well, the world one tomorrow,
so I'm not going to worry about it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
But that was me.

Speaker 4 (01:01:05):
They didn't give you a specific timeline right though, because
in Mormonism it was like it could be tomorrow, it
could be in fifty years, we don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
But it's soon, probably tomorrow. And yea more pressing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
I need a time. I'm I need a time.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
And that's why this time in the world is so
perfect for these conversations, because the world actually kind of
is ending, so it's like just any pressure cooker. So
many belief systems and yeah, trying to dig yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:01:33):
Well, and we're all looking for answers, and we're all
looking for reasons to think maybe why the world actually
isn't ending.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
And why it matters if it doesn't, and what the
meaning of life is. It's it's a really and.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
The belief system is so dichotomous that it's like, how
can those people think that? Yeah, but you know they're
thinking the same thing about us.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
Yeah, Well, the time has never been better for us
to have a cult podcast. We're so excited. It's your guys,
you really are. Thank you so much for joining us
because we are so glad to have you on this network.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
We're so glad to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
That's Brye you guys trust me. Cults, Extreme Belief and
Manipulation debuts on exactly right on July thirtieth, with new
episodes every Wednesday, and go.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
Listen, subscribe and give it a five star review.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
You know those reviews are very important. Yes, the subscription
is important. So thanks for being here, Thank you for listening.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Thank you guys so much. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
This has been an exactly right production.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
Our editor is Aristotle Oscevedo.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

Speaker 4 (01:02:46):
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Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
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