February 16, 2016 • 47 mins
In this episode we discuss LA Freeway Killers of the 70s, the Martha Moxley murder case and read more listener hometown murder stories.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Talk about murder.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Let's get it done.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Let's get into a murder. Let's get our murder Georges
taken care of.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Let's uh, let's vacuum the murder and take out the murder.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Let's vacuum up the hair follicles and the carpet fibers
that will not be admissible in court, and then just
throw them out, yeah, because they're discarbaged. And then we'll
overturn the conviction, will overturn the history. Hi, this is
my favorite murder. That's Karen, and that's Georgian. We're here
to talk about crime and punishment and all the things
that we like that a lot of people really don't.
(00:48):
I feel like so many people are emailing us and
being like thank you that they do.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, I'm always too embarrassed to talk about it with anyone.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Do you think even like even grammar school teachers and
even cheerleaders have these feelings.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I think most women like to talk about murder.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, and some dudes.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Some dudes do.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Okay, Well, here's the thing I read recently. Did you
know there's they have like an age range that you'll
most likely like this is when this is when your
chances of getting murdered are the work at this age,
like they have an exact age.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And this is from Paranoia magazine.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Now this is from fucking psychology today.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Okay, similar.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, it was a relief because we're both older than
this age.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Okay, good.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
So the average aid of homicide victims into this last
time I guess was two thousand and eight was thirty
two point seven years old.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Boo.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And then the average age of murderers in two thousand
and eight was twenty eight point eight.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
WHOA interesting, Yeah, like that's very young seems to me.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
To get murdered or to murder, uh, to be a murderer,
that seems young.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I you know, I would have guessed old, younger personally.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
You would have guessed younger for the money because.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
You have less control over your impulses and that sort
of thing. But by twenty eight you're like, I'm gonna
be a murderer definitely or no, I.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Want you know what it is too.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I think when I think of stuff like this, I'm
thinking of this specific kind of money that I'm interested in,
where obviously this is this is gang tarmafia all you know,
tar puls all that stuff, spousal abuse, the crimes of passion,
times of partion, crimes of portune.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
What about you know what, I'm really afraid of getting
shot out on the freeway.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Ooh yeah, what about someone throwing a brick over and
off and overpass onto your windshield? Oh?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Do that? No, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Does that happen to people?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
M hm? There was, Like sometimes there's there's like I
was gonna say spates of that, but I'm not sure
if that's.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
The right word. That's terrifying.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Little that starts happening in certain parts of that's a
that's a very Los Angeles thing.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
No sure, I know.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I gotta go, Kay bye, I gotta go.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I gotta go.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
And to be murdered thirty two that sounds right because
you're like, you're out of your twenties. You kind of
like you relax into adulthood. You think you got it together.
You no longer carry your keys between your fingers at night.
You're kind of like, look, I lived in the city
long enough. You let your shoulders down a little bit,
you relax.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, the fun kind of murders that we like, that's
like your a college co ed. Yeah, not fun. And
I don't like them.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Just to clear this up, whatever we have, we simply
must demand understanding from our audience.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
That's what we're going to have to stop explaining that A.
We don't want to be murdered by anyone we did.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
You know why is because I made the fatal mistake
of not only reading some of our iTunes reviews that
were bad, which were there were very few, so I
went straight to them and then telling you about them.
And like the funny one was one where I was like,
these women have no respect. They're laughing about child death
or whatever. And so I keep feeling like I have
to clarify or be apologetic, call.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Her and be like, let me tell you about this.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I pictured it to be an old man with horn
rim glasses and kind of half balding, kind of like
an old Bob Odenkirk is the way I was picturing it,
Just like a crooked finger shaking at the screen always
you women, his grandson comes and boots it up for
him every day.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, we just said we can't. We have to be
talking to the people that understand us. Yeah, they get us,
they do, and they like it. Like you're saying, they're excited.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
I was going to ask you a question, and I
forgot it. I'm just going to keep telling each other
that that people like murder.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
They like it.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, why would they be listening to a podcast called
My Favorite Murder?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah? People are much smarter than the media would have
you believe.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Do you want to go first? You want to talk
about your favorite murder? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Maybe after this one, we're going to start having categories
each time. Sure, like call a theme? Yeah, theme totally.
So we're not right now. So I was just like
in the wind, twisting in the wind to grab one.
Why it's been harder? Yeah? So you, why don't you
go first? That's my point? Oh okay, no wait, why
(05:18):
don't I go first? And then you? Your yours is
probably really well researched.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Goh, because I have a legal path.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Huh.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I just carry that around with me like a nerd.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
There's nothing written like the same word written over and
over and over again.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
It just says murder Georgia, over and over on this
whole time.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
It was you that murdered me. Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, that's the great irony of life. It's always what's
right in front of you. Nice to meet you, my
m meet my murderer.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
All right, Well mine is my favorite murder this week
is one that I'm sure you know about, and it's
a classic, and I feel like I just need to
get out of the way because whenever and there's been
recent news updates about it, and whenever I see it,
whenever I watched a documentary about it, fucking in it. Yeah,
it's the murder of Martha Moxley.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Oh, Georgia, you know, I gotta tell you.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, just the name Martha Moxley, Moxley, the word Moxley.
It's the best name and it's the worst story.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
It's just like and she's she's just a fucking kid.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah. So if those who don't know don't know anything,
apparently Martha Moxley uh in nineteen seventy five, she was
a fifteen year old girl living in Greenwich, Connecticut, which
is a fucking tony town.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Loved the word tony.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Don't they have like their own gates and stuff. It's
like truly like crazy.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Risk yeah, and it's like you live on acres.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
So, Martha Moxley's body was found beaten in her yard
the night after Halloween. It was she was beaten. They
found half of a golf club there, which is what
had been used to beat her. She's like a cute
pretty This doesn't matter. She could be ugly, it's still terrible.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
She looks like a girl that's in a black and
white picture in an eighties year book.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
She's like that perfect girl, like.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
The popular but like but she's also on student body.
Like she's popular and smart and she's not mean, you know,
l freckles, genuine smile like. She'd probably end up being
like a like a lawyer for like the ocean, you know,
like a lawyer defending.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Like actually getting something good done. Osha, Is that a thing? Osha?
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yes, But OSHA's is the work, the work environment, making
make sure, making sure it's safe for people to work there.
She'd be she'd be a lawyer for them. Okay, I
like the ocean too. It's kind of nice. She just
has dolphins all around her anyhow, she.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Totally has dolphins. So the person who ended up ultimately
getting arrested and put in jail for this murder, but
not until two thousand and two was her neighbor who
lived across the street, who was her age, named Michael Skeakell,
who this is so unimportant and such a stupid fact
of the whole thing. But probably the reason why it's
(08:09):
a famous murder is that the Michael Skegle's family was
related to Senator Robert Kennedy's wife, Ethel Kennedy. Skale Kennedy,
who RFK has been in on this podcast is so
my favorite murder in the past. Anyways, So what recently
(08:30):
happened is that Michael Skekell has been released from jail.
Oh I didn't know that they filed for a new
trial because he was not adequately represented by his defense attorney,
doubt it. The habeas petition was granted, the judgment of
conviction is set aside, and the matter is referred back
so for retrial, meaning as far as I know, so
(08:54):
he got out and as far as I know, it
doesn't look like they're pursuing the case anymore because I guess,
you know, they had very little. It was all circumstantial evidence,
not even that wasn't very strong, so surprising that he
got convicted. However, he admitted that that night, somewhere between
ten and two in the morning or something like that,
(09:17):
he was in a tree masturbating while looking in Martha
Moxley's window.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yes, that was the justification of why his semen would
be on her body.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
It was on her body. Yeah, Okay, that's the stupidest
thing I've ever heard in my life, right, I.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Mean, clearly he had pretty good lawyers the first time around.
It they're coming up with shit like that. It's just
I know, this is insane biased because I've seen this
like so many versions of this story.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
But it's but I've decided. I've decided. But I mean
it's because of things like that.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Well, the problem with it is is that there's other
strong suspects, you know, like the brother, the brother who
was making out with her that evening, which is why
maybe Michael got jealous and killed her or did she
catch him? Jernking off? Like, how did she come out there?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Do you suppose I think she was out because it
was Mischief Night?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Right? Was it the night before Halloween or Halloween?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
It was?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Uh yeah, sorry, I know you're so the night before Halloween. Yeah,
Mischief Night, which I didn't know was a thing. I know,
it's not a thing out here. I think it's it
might be for exclusively for rich white people. In Greenwich, but.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's also in Detroit, which is terrifying. Oh is that?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, a slightly different tone of that night.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Every night is Mischief Knight in Detroit.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, I've never heard of Mischief Knight until I heard
the story.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, me too. So yeah, so like the most obvious
answer is usually the correct answer. Yeah, and him jerking
off in a tree and not being the killer is
not the obvious answer, that's right.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Well, and also, just then, why weren't there other people even,
you know, like it just didn't seem like there was
other people brought forward because this is one of not
just a safetown or whatever, it's like an exclusive shut
off city.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah. But here's the thing, is there the scay Gulls
had a had a tutor.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Named John Let's see, we done something foreign Ken.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Ken Littleton. Oh okay, So he was a tutor and
they were like, this guy's sketchy, and so he was
a suspect for a long time too.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Why was he sketchy? Do you remember?
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Because maybe he had a part on for Martha Moxley.
Oh okay, but he says he never even met her. Okay,
but then so recently, Kobe Bryant. Here's another like relative,
Kobe Bryant's cousin. His name is Tony Bryant. Okay, Like,
why are there needs to be, you know, connections to
(11:54):
family members that are famous. I don't know. Says that
he knows who killed Martha Moxley. He's from this town. Oh,
and he came out recently and said, I know who
actually did it.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
And it wasn't Michael Skeggle.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
No, he says it was two of his friends who
lived in.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Or I love the Bronx, I believe.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, two friends visiting him from the Bronx. They went
to Moxley's neighborhood the night of the murder, and this
guy Bryant was with them. The two friends reportedly picked
up Skegele's golf clubs from Skeegele's yard, which is what
she was murdered with on a whim, and told Bryant
they wanted to attack a girl, quote caveman style, using
the clubs. Bryant says he left the neighborhood and learned
about the murder later, and the friends told him they
(12:39):
committed the crime, but he never said anything. So now
he's saying he's coming forward with the story. If the
story is true, I called bullshit on him leaving. He
was he was there.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
People are going to tell you to your face they're
going to kill a girl, and you're like, well, I've
got to go.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
AI, So what kind of person? I mean?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Look whatever, there's all details. You could run a million scenario.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I just don't think a teenager would be like would
leave even if he was like, I don't want to
murder anyone. I just want to see what happens. Or
I don't believe these guys.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
You know.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Well here The other thing I remember hearing is that
the Scagell's golf clubs, the set of clubs were in
their attic that the cops found them later with that
one club missing. So the idea that they were picking
golf clubs out of a front yard seems a bit bullshitty.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Or did someone stash the golf clubs up there after
they realized the murder weapon was a.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Golf club or that could be connected to them.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Did Michael Skagle do it put the golf clubs up there?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
That the dad the mom.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Weren't the dad the mom gone, They were gone, like
the dad mom almost didn't live there. They were like
teen boys that lived on their.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Own, rich white teen boys running a mac that lived
on them her own. That sounds now?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Am I wrong to assume that Kobe Bryant's cousin is
black and that the kids coming in from whatever did
you say, Brooklyn or the Bronx Bronx coming in from
the Bronx were black.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
That's an assumption we could make.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
I would think that the Greenwich, Connecticut cops would see
three black kids walking around on mischief night and at
least ask a question totally, if not harassed the fuck
out of them.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
And then how did Michael Skaegle seem him a guest
to go back and get on this poor girl, this
poor girl in her poor every interview like her family
is like die hard, like we never did anything else
with our lives, but try to get justice. Yeah, it's
fucking heartbreaking for this poor family.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
There's I remember I remember seeing this story way early
in a It wasn't Forensic Files, but it was like
one of those ones, and they interviewed the mom. Oh
she's she seemed like a thousand miles away. I remember
watching it and just going, oh, I never want to
see any murder victims. Mom speak again, because that's the
most painful thing.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
You know, what hurts me up. The brothers, brothers of
the murder victims always bought me out because they're like,
I should have been there to help my little sister.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, oh terrible. Well.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Also, I don't like the idea that so he has served.
Was it thirty years in prison or twenty?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
No, he didn't get arrested until two thousand and two.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Oh, so this is crazy like white people justice, where
it's a rich guy who basically kind of did a
symbolic time and now they're faking out some black people
to say, hey, maybe we did it, and then his
thing goes away.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Probably he didn't. Michael Skigle didn't get arrested until unconvicted
for twenty seven years he was free. So this whole
thing happened. I think it was two thousand and two.
So I remember having watched the whole story of the
murder and then like that happened. It was insane. I
never thought he would get anyone. We get arrested for it,
and now he's sucking out again. So he's spent he's
(16:05):
spent a couple of years.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I just think that the logic of.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Oh, wait, so two thousand he was arrested and then yeah,
now he's out. Yeah, the logic of.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Oh, just the logic of a very rich teen boy
who gets spurned and maybe even shamed like his older
brother who ruins his life and every other way, gets
the girl that he likes him having this huge, crazy
emotional reaction in the moment that he maybe hugely regrets
even but that and maybe even a girl that he
(16:39):
was obsessed with that sparking murderous, murderous rampage makes way
more sense than just a teen going I'm gonna kill
a girl tonight caveman style, Like, you have to be
a very specific type of person to be able to
do that in the first place. It's not like going
I'm gonna sniff glue.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And then there were two other kids at Michael Skeaikell's
boarding school later who said he admitted to it. Yeah,
so these kids from the Bronx would have probably gone
back and bragged about it, and there would have been
more people saying that they did it, not Kobe Bryant's cousin.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah, but I just hate that idea that I mean it.
Most black people have a hard time driving around Los Angeles, California.
You're going to roll up into Greenwich, Connecticut and just
be like, let's see what we can do murder wise.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Like wander around with clubs.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
No, Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Also, if you live in the bronx, where you're getting
the gas money, where you getting any of the money
to get there? Yeah, Like I don't know, it doesn't
It just doesn't add up as quickly to me. It's
just a it's but what's the Yeah, I don't know,
but who knows?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And I just don't understand why this guy, who has
a family Kobe Bryant's cousin, would want to do that.
But there's a fucking narcissistic people who want attention all
the time. Or maybe he really believes it.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Maybe he believes it.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And maybe he doesn't he's remembering incorrectly. He really believes
that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Here's what I will say.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
I love the idea that we still get to talk
about the Martha Moxley murderer, that there's something still happening
with Yeah, that's fascinating to me.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
No one's in prison for her murder still, Yeah, did
I want Michael Skaigeld not to have done it, Like
I want there to be a different answer, but I
don't think there is.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I think that the thing it comes down to with
me with a lot of these stories is my irritation
over the fact that people accept kind of like like,
if you're a white guy wearing a button down Oxford shirt,
you can kind of do whatever the fuck you want
and people will be like, oh no, that nice boy
down the street. Yeah, like you can you get to
hide in plain sight with this camouflage and meanwhile, be
(18:45):
whatever and people will not believe it. Yeah, they'll immediately
believe three black kids driving up from the Bronx to
kill this one girl.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
It's just such a bummer because I think what I
don't want him to be guilty is because he is
such a fucking loser and such a little twerp. But
he doesn't deserve. I want it to be more sensational
because she deserves to not have just been killed by
this little little shit face.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, who is jealous of a thing that's a that's
like a friend zone murder, that's what that.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Is, Or like you want to fuck my brother and
not me, I'm.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Jealous yeah, yeah, which.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Is such an obvious boring I get. This is why
I like cold cases is because you can imagine that
it's more complicated and mysterious and bigger within the answer,
which is usually the answer is just some fucking dude
didn't take.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
His meds and went crazy. Right, It's like, and this
guy's a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And the murder victim was a good person who deserved
And I always think, like, just kill yourself. Don't kill
someone else, Please just kill yourself.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
I mean that was if they had any kind of
nobility about them whatsoever. Well, and also the other thing
too is you can't just leave kids just because you're
rich or just because you can like get a tutor,
especially like teen boys are the ones that need to
be like observed and ridden and like disciplined constantly. They
have to be there have to be boundaries. No, And
(20:13):
it's the seventies, so they were like on drugs and
smoking pot and drinking all the time. They did whatever
they wanted. I mean to me, in my mind, it's
much more likely that a rich kid, a super rich
teenage boy, would murder a girl.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, who has too much privilege and affluence and has
always gotten away with whatever he wants.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
We're Kennedy's.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Were the Kennedys of Greenwich, right, yeah, yeah, come on,
oh man back.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's your murder a Moxley.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Well, so I picked mine because we were talking about
hitchhiking and laughing about how insanely dangerous and crazy hitch
taking is. And so I want to look up why
we think that and know that and what the story,
what the actual stories and murders are behind that.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
And it turns out.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
That there I looked up freeway killer because I remember
hearing there was like the story of the one guy
with the van on the freeway. It turns out there
were three. Wow, and between like the mid seventies and
nineteen eighty, there were three serial killers that dumped bodies
on freeways in Los Angeles and southern California, working all
(21:33):
at the same.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Time in this area, in this area.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
And on top of that, in the same timeframe were
the hillside stranglers.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, and so they weren't even counted in this because
they'd dump bodies.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, but they'd dumb bodies in the hills. So they
would take women off the streets and then they would
they it was where they were dumping in the hills,
that's what they called them, hillside. They thought it was
one guy doing it, like as if they were walking
up there, and then realized they were bringing by too there.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
I just think it's crazy that when two people joined
forces and are both in agreement that they want to
do the same, Like, it's insane. How do you find
someone like that?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Okay, that's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
And here's why I love the story because the guy
I focused on is William Bonnen. He had four accomplices
over his uh I believe it if it was just
a year or it was like a year and a
half where he was doing the most most of these
killers killings, sorry, and he had four different people who
helped him.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
That's insane.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
It's crazy.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Something was going on in the late seventies because that's
also when Bundy, when John Wayne Gacy, like it was
all around nineteen seventy eight. There was this weird explosion
of like maybe it was just that people learned about
what it was and the story started coming out like
Dahmer was later, right, Dahmer was later?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean or because the term serial killer
wasn't even coined intel, but it didn't mean that they
weren't if they weren't doing that right, just don't think
people understood.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
And also, how do you introduce that concept to like
without introducing huge mass panic. So one of the guys,
I'll just tell you the other ones. First one was
the scorecard Killer. And this was a guy named Randy Craft.
So from nineteen seventy two to nineteen eighty three, he
killed for sure sixteen boys, but they think fifty one
(23:25):
and fifty one. And there was also and he they
call him scorecard Killer because he kept this really long
list where he had code words for the people that
he killed, so they were able to track. That's why
they know it's at least fifty one, because there would
just be a word that would say like tank top
(23:46):
or whatever that would somehow relate to the victim.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Oh my god, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
It's crazy. And he was like the he looked like
anyone in the store. When you see pictures, he looks
like a high school teacher. Holy, he looks like he
would have been on episode of Mary Tyler Moore. He
has like kind of a pointy nose and like he
has kind of a jolly looking face.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I think he's a guy seventies.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
A guy in the seventies just like, hey, come on,
do you need a ride?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
And he would pick up little kids.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
He would pick up men of any kind, okay, and
then he would brutally he would brutally rape them and
then dump their bodies. There was also Patrick Wayne Karney
who worked from seventy five to seventy seven, who killed uh,
definitely twenty eighth.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
That's two years. He killed twenty eight.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
People, twenty eight and they think forty three. They just
can only pin twenty eight on him.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, Like there's no way he didn't start earlier and
they just don't know yet.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Right exactly, and especially because at this time, imagine three
of these people doing this at once, and this guy
would pick up hitchhikers, shoot them in the head, then
do stuff to their bodies, and then wrap them in
trash back.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
And keep their heads. Is that's him?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
No, Uh, well not that I know of.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
No, I don't think I think that's anyways, Yeah, this.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Is one of these people.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
No, Well, anyway, I imagine like living right now and
like like how you know summer of sam how like, yeah,
there's a person killing people out there right now.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Like I just wouldn't leave the house anymore, I know.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
And three three, and it's not three.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Of them that at any given time could be driving
down any fucking street.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
But the key in this, in all three of these,
and the reason that they didn't go that they went
on solved for so long, is because they were gay.
It was gay boys, and it was it was that
situation of boy hitchhikers, usually young and for William Bonnan,
his youngest was twelve, a little boy who was trying
(25:46):
to get to Disneyland. And but William Bonnen is like
the worst, the worst of the worst. We can just
go through his super quick because it's just a humongous bummer.
He's kind of got shades of Charles Manson in that
way where it was never okay for him from day one.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
So he he was born to two alcoholic parents and
the mom left him and his two brothers with her father,
who molested her and who molested the boys. Then he
he ran away when he was nine and he got
arrested for stealing license plates and he got sent to
(26:27):
a boy's you know, like Juvie basically for boys, where
he was again raped and molested. And there's a super
dark story. This is if you don't like dark things,
this will bum you out. So spoiler alert, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Spoil your life alert. Let's just spoil.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Spoiler spoiler your entire life. They told a story of
the first time he was someone approached him in this
in juvie to say that they were going to like
fuck him essentially, and he asked the boy to tie
his hands behind his back first because it made him
feel safe. That's how badly he was being molested by
(27:06):
his grandfather. So he was we can talk about this
person and at least draw a strain of like with
that why question that I always have with this, Like
you cannot torture human beings?
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Do you create a serial killer?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Just follow this guy's life.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, basically, And you know, neglect. They were like the
neighborhood people said that they look like they were starving
all the time. They were like, you know, they were
completely neglected children who then of course became criminals because
what else were they going to do.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Well, it's the thing I'm like, where do you go
At what point do you switch from feeling sorry for
this child to thinking that this man should be dead?
You know, Like, right, there's like a moment. I guess
it's when he kills the first person here to go.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah, because there's a lot of people that get molested
and fucked with as children who never do anything bad
to other people totally, So it's there's definitely that element
of responsibility. But it's just like you just see that
thing where like if that mother couldn't be responsible enough
to go, I'm going to get you out of this
cycle of abuse and not let what happened to me
happened to you.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
But how horrible that is.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
So anyway, he of course then when he gets out
of like that juvie, he starts molesting kids in the neighborhood.
I mean this is just like now with the thing
that he does. He gets arrested for it once, then
he gets sent to I think, he goes to Vietnam,
has a full tour in the Air Force. He joins
the Air Force, he came back, he was in Vietnam
(28:36):
from sixteen nine to seventy one, came back and immediately
started kidnapping and raping boys.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
He did it to five boys.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Can you imagine the fucking fondling he did in Vietnam?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Yeah, Like that was like a free for all from
him a bit, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, he could do anything he wanted.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
So he comes back, he gets caught for kidnapping and
raping five different boys. They send him to a mental hospital.
So he goes from being in a mental hospital. In
the mental hospital, they say he's he can't be rehabilitated,
so they send him to real jail.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
But then he's.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Released in nineteen seventy four because there they decide he's
no longer a danger to others.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
You've got to be kidding, uh huh.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
And so sixteen months later he's charged with the gunpoint
rape of a fourteen year old hitchhiker and the attempted
abduction of another teen So he's sentenced from one to
fifteen years in jail.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
From one to fifteen years, one to two to that.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Yeah, just you know, go think about what you did
for a little while a year that you've been doing
your entire life.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
The fucking penal system. Of all these stories of horrific things,
I'm usually the most disturbed and disgusted by how a
little time people get for heinous Yeah, the crimes.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Well, it's when when our rape and child Wileston going
to start being really seen as like, these are people
who should not be in should not be getting out in.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Six I don't know, but when that happens, they're going
to stop putting a fucking statute of limitations on prosecuting
people for rape. Yeah, there's a statute of limitations sure
for rape and kidnapping. Yeah, how fucking how fucked up's
that the cops can't find the dude who raped and
kidnapped you for fifteen years?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Is that away?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
He's free now?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Sure, do what you want, since boys will be boys.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
So in nineteen seventy eight, Uh, he's released from jail
and he moved to Downey and forgot.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I was just in down everything and I read that
I had breakfast, and I read the criminal section of their.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Newspaper too, anything exciting happening.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
There was a home invasion robbery here.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Oh okay, it's not too bad.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
They later found out that he murdered a thirteen year
old hitchhiker, but he was ultimately arrested for molesting a
boy in Dana Point. Should have gone back to prison
because he was on parole at the time, but due
to a clerical error, clerical clerical error, he.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Was released someone spelled his last name wrong exactly.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
He walked right out of the jail and he got
picked up by his main accomplice for all of these murders,
a man named what is it something Butts, something something Butts.
It's a classic name.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
So anyway, and that's when he tells, he tells Butts,
Now there's.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Not gonna be any more witnesses.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
That's what you're creating when you keep letting these people,
when you keep arresting them for one to fifteen years,
is that they learn the lesson not to let anyone
identify them right by it, so you should kill them.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
So then he makes this what they ended up calling, uh,
like the death machine or something. And it's this green
forda'conoline van that he's got chains, he's got like handcuffed,
he's got all this stuff. And they would pick up hitchhikers.
The Butts guy would be in the back and then
(32:04):
they basically he'd like pull over and like attack and rape.
And he he was a big strangler. He for most
of his victims, he strangled them with a T shirt.
That's so that's how he killed most of them. And
uh uh Vernon Butts. That was his first vernon and
(32:24):
they also were lovers, uh, and they played Dungeons Dragons
in the sewer system of Los Angeles. That was just
a small detail that I wrote on the side of
here that I remembered, and I just am fascinated.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
That's a lot. That's him.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Just if we could kind of go into that for
quite some time. But I find that fascinating. This isn't
a gaming podcast, otherwise we would get we would get
so into it. Oh so basically it's just he Then
it was basically a year long tear where they went
and picked up you know, what they think is I
(33:02):
think he got prosecuted. What did I say, he got
prosecuted for sixteen? He was no, he got prosecuted for fourteen.
But they think he did forty four murders.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
That is the most staggering number. And the people were
getting fucking kidnapped left and right.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Just boys disappearing everywhere. And apparently there was a reporter
at the Orange County Register, which is you know, as
you know, Orange County is very Republican, very white, Republican
kind of Christian area in southern California, and he found
an envelope the Southern County Register with all the paper
clippings of all these different individual stories of hitchhikers or
(33:40):
bodies that were found murdered, and on the front of
the envelope it said dead gay boys. So he was like,
why isn't anybody looking at this as like like some
a trend at.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
The very least. But that was basically he he kind
of wrote.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
I think he wrote a book. He wrote something about that.
I was reading. Part of that was basically all about
how the attitude was like, well, too bad for them
because they signed up for that lifestyle the same as prostitutes, right, like,
well they live what was it, a high risk estyle?
They chose to live a high risk lifestyle, which is
so okay, you're right, so then any serial killer should
(34:16):
get to do whatever you want. Y.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yeah, that's bananas. It's super crazy, I am. But I
mean just the thought of knowing that there are those
people out there, I mean there are now, but like
in your working actively, in your in your.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
In your hood, in your hood, well and also down here,
I mean there was so much murder down here. And
also seventy eight was the same year as Jonestown, but
there was something there was something in the air, you
know what I think.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Of like murder in the eighties, seventies and eighties, and
like how like people were so miners were unaccompanied, like
just as a rule, like you could go and do
your own thing.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
We would.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
We would leave and be gone all day and then
come back when it's dark yep, Like picture a fucking
a fucking arcade and like all the kids that were
just hanging out in arcades, and all the perverts were
probably working there.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yes, intentionally working at it arcade because kids would be there. Yeah,
I mean it's a scarier, it's a scary thing to know,
like to have the information, but it's such a better
time for children health wise, I think in all those ways,
because it's like, yeah, if you have kids, you probably
should know where they are all the time, and you
should probably make sure there's an adult with them that's responsible.
(35:30):
Definitely if we leave you with anything. This week, yeah, you.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Know, we stayed at home alone every day. We were
latchkey kids.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
We were too Me and my sister crazy, so crazy.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
One day we went to get dropped off and we
just at the last minute decided to get dropped off
on my aunt's house. Because she lived next door and
our house was being robbed at the time. Oh, my God,
of that decision.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Are you serious?
Speaker 2 (35:54):
I swear to God.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
My uncle saw the guy walking out our front door
with stuff under his arm as he drove by, and
so he called the cops.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Holy the guy get caught. No, holy shit, if you
had fucking walked in on a burglar.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah to uh.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
At the time, I think we were like eight and
ten Jesus walking in on a very large bearded man
looting our house.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
I definitely remember being offered rides as a kid by
like strange men, being like no, I used.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
To walk like literally a mile to school. Yeah, by myself,
by myself.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
It's so stupid.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
I used to ditch school and then they like go
hang out and it's like, oh, you could have just
been you dumb idiot. I know. We're so lucky to
have survived.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
You know what, God bless America. You know this is
a positive time.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Oh wait, no, now we get to read some of
your hometown murders.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
We've asked you guys to send us hometown murders because
we love it and you've done it and we appreciate it.
We have a Facebook group my favorite murder, and we
have a Gmail account my favorite Murder, so you can
send us your hometown murder. I'm gonna review on Karen
and you read me one perfect Okay, want me to
go first? You want to go first?
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (37:06):
This is by Mark Schrum. I'm I'm Mark. He's very nice,
he said. He said. I hope I have the right email.
If not, I'm sorry for the frightening subject line because
if it went to the wrong person. It just is
my favorite murder.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Open up your email and you're like, there's just someone
describing a murder too.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
How you would be shitting a brick?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Mark, He says. When I was a freshman in high school,
there was a high profile kidnapping case here in west
of Wines, Iowa. Maybe you heard of it. It was
the Johnny Gorsh Ghost Johnny Ghosh case. Yes, it's pretty
well known nationwide and drug on for years and isn't
one hundred percent solved of this day. This happened in
nineteen eighty two. He was a paper boy and was kidnapped.
Well doing his paper route one morning. Didn't they just
(37:53):
find his bike and that's it?
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
There was another boy, Eugene Martin, that was taken in
nineteen eighty four. Same story. He was a paper My
story comes in nineteen eighty three when I was a
paper boy.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Mark.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Your mom should not have let you be a paper boy.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Mark.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
My brother and I were delivering papers one morning and
it was still dark. We were on a street that
the houses were pretty far apart and set back from
the road, so we weren't right on the street. I
looked up the street and saw a blue panel van
coming down the street extremely slow with no headlights on.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Uh oh.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
As we walked, it kept following my brother from the street. Wait.
My brother and I had walkie talkies awesome nice, so
we were communicating about it, and we decided to run
and head behind the houses to get away from the
street and meet up a few houses down. As we
took off running, the van took off down the street
and finally, after a few houses, turned the lights on
and sped away. Was I going to me next? I
(38:45):
guess I'll never know. About five minutes later we saw
a manager told him and he called it into the
paper dispatch. I don't know, weren't from there, but I
was never questioned by the police, and one year later
Eugene was gone, Oh haunts me to this day, even
though you are only one of the handful of people
I've ever spoken to about it since it happened. Wow, Mark, uh,
(39:07):
he said, keep up the good work and don't ever
remove the humor from the podcast. That is just depressing.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
We did it a little bit on this one.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
He said. It isn't being disrespectful and you aren't going
to hell. We're just cope. We are just coping with
a fucked up world and the best way we know how.
And he wrote, fing you, thank you, Mark, thank you, Mark.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
That's so true. It's coping. It's coping. It's coping.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
But wow, ground zero at the Johnny Gosh because.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Of no way that wasn't involved. He was in the
middle between two boys, paper boys being kidnapped.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
If you're driving a van, you should be pulled over
more than people of color.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Vans are. What good is happening in a van?
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Especially like are a green van with their headlights off,
slowly cruising down the street. Please, you're the biggest child.
Loster my guy that I just did.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
William Bonnan had a green van who murdered, so many people.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Like you're either a serial killer or your Scooby Doo team.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Yes, but Scooby Doo they were smart enough to put
pink daisies on the side, which is really declared it
was the mystery machine, but it actually means rape and
murder murder.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Well.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Also, if anyone is interested in going deeper into the
Johnny Gosh kidnapping, did you listen to that last podcast
on the left about it's about the pedophile ring and
the conspiracy theory about the the credit union that's in
that town and the guy that runs it and these
this governmental conspiracy. The name is uh, what's the reporter's name. Yes,
(40:39):
it's the same name, that's right. It's the same name
as of Larry King. Larry King, Larry King, that's right,
Lawrence King. Is his name, Lawrence King, Lawrence King? Credit Union?
And what is it? It's is it Iowa?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Or where?
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Did where did Mark say he was?
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Mark was from Des Moines? Yeah, yeah, So it's all
it's crazy connected and there's like a whole thing about
about it being a sex child sex ring. He started
a youth group and like just be friend of these
kids and these and the kids in the documentary that
I saw were like being like, yeah, he made us
go get kids for him.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, the kids talk about it. I mean. And also
it's that thing of like people.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
It's like, no one wants to believe something when happened
in Des Moines as if like if it's a pedal
fire ring, it would have to be in Manhattan or something.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Right, Oh, it's bad news.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
And the people that you trust the most are the shadiest.
It's like your parents, so don't trust anyway.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
I feel like the pillars of the community I mean
are usually previous.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
I mean, with great power comes great corruption. No, no
power corrupts.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
That's the same. Yeah. Does The other one is.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Forget it? Forget I said, there's a whole one out
of all of those somewhere, there's.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
A whole one something somewhere of ideas. Yep, okay, here's mine.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Parents. This is from Emily.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
I'm assuming that you pronounce it may Sar and it's
the Asheville hometown murder story.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
George and Karen.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
So I live in Asheville, North Carolina, and have since
I was in kindergarten. We lived in Anca Candler, though,
which is an unincorporated community on the west side of
the city. When I was in elementary school, first or
second grade, my sister had a friend. I say friend,
but they were probably somewhere between friends and acquaintances. It
was high school and it was the nineties. There was
(42:27):
probably gray area. My sister was a sophomore, maybe fifteen,
and so was this girl. My sister was supposed to
spend the night at this girl's house, but something came
up and my sister going to go. I was so young,
though that I can't remember if it was on our
side or her friends. Looking back, probably the latter. That night,
the girl's mother's boyfriend murdered my sister's friend. If I
(42:48):
remember correctly, I think he wrapped her in trash bags
tied weight store legs, dropped the body in the amazingly
shallow lake, where she was discovered a day or two later.
I honestly I have no idea if there was a
sexual element into this crime. I'm inclined to say us
only because statistically there usually is for both women in
general and specifically young women. But the Internet is no
help with real details, probably because it was so long ago,
(43:10):
or maybe because it was such a small town. Either way,
It's a thing that I think about occasionally when I
think about my sister, because it's fucking terrifying. He was
sentenced to a little under seventeen years for murdering a team,
you know, murdering. Oh so if he's alive now, I
have no idea he's probably out, probably again terrifying.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Emily, thank you. That is unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
That's incredible that that happened in your life.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Oh my god. Yeah, those near myths stories are like,
those are the best.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Maybe that young and be like, oh this is things.
People do this to each other, right, Yeah, the innocence lost. Yeah,
it's so intense and also just like a friend dying
in an in some other like a drunk driving actor
in or like.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
A typical way is awful.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yeah, but this adds an element of like someone the
hell this person?
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, oh my lord, wow, seven hundred seventeen years he.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Got the same amount of time that she got to
live on the planet.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
That's fuck you, bullshit, fuck you judge. Whoever decided that.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Well, I bet he that's all he could do. I
bet it was like it wasn't premeditated, And I bet
this guy said it was like an accident, and so
I just got rid of about like, right, this is
such bullshit the rationale behind it.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, whoa, guys, this has been this episode has been
a lot.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
It's been kind of depressing.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
It's been a lot to handle, a lot of murders,
a lot of a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
I mean, it is what is what we're doing, It's
what we signed up for.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
This was Yeah, this was an intense This was a downer.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
But I do like the idea for going forward thinking
of themes that would help us kind of talk about
more general concepts around, right.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I mean, that's the idea that you want to do.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
Like definitely think So, okay, do you have any ideas
for them too? I'm thinking like child killers and people
who killed children and you know what even like child
children who kill that you know, shootings and bab it off.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
People with glass eyes. Yeah, this specific something really crazy. Yeah, well,
because I and I know we plug this all the time,
but we love Last Podcasts on the Left. It's one
of my favorite podcasts. But they just recently did one
about Dean Coral, who is the candyman killer in Houston.
I think, and one of the things I find so
(45:30):
fascinating in the way they do it is Marcus Parks,
who is their researcher and provides most of like the
context content or whatever. Like they were talking about he
got away with all these murders because there was no
at the time, there was no police force. Like there
was one point something million people living there and there
was like twenty two hundred policemen. Like this impossible. And
(45:53):
there's just these things that happen in history and in
time where like all of a sudden, like in nineteen
seventy eight in Los Angeles, you did not want to
be a teenage boy that looked slightly effeminate or hitchhiked.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, like that.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
You your odds of living through that were very low.
And that's just like these weird sine waves of the times. Yeah,
things happening all at once. It's just crazy. Yeah, a
culmination of circumstances. Yeah, yeah, I'm into it, but.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
In a negative way, but in a fascinated way.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
And we're trying to cope, as Marcus said, I mean Mark,
what is his name?
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Your guys's name is Mark.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
We're coping, We're trying to cope, trying to help what
we're trying to talk about it in anxiety.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
So email us your hometown murders or your favorite murder
and go to the Facebook group and the Twitter my
favor murder.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Oh yeah, and we and some people are just emailing suggestions.
There's lots of really good ones, so we'll get to
those two and suggesting. Someone suggested a really good documentary
called The House of Suh, which I looked up and
has like an eighty three percent ratings, so I'm definitely
gonna watch that.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
So yeah, Oh, there is someone on the Facebook group.
Oh I wish I had their name who's making a
fucking Google doc of every suggestion we bring up for
like a movie, a book, a documentary of this.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
That's so awesome. I know, that's very cool.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
If you if you join the Facebook group, which is closed,
you'll find it on there.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Cool. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Yeah, and we'll try to make them and then we'll
try to convey yours that you tell us.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, awesome, Yes, I love it. Rate, subscribe and review
so we can get a lot of listeners, you guys.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Yeah, and thanks for listening. Thank you for listening for
us with us.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
My
Talk about murder.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Let's get it done.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Let's get into a murder. Let's get our murder Georges
taken care of.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Let's uh, let's vacuum the murder and take out the murder.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Let's vacuum up the hair follicles and the carpet fibers
that will not be admissible in court, and then just
throw them out, yeah, because they're discarbaged. And then we'll
overturn the conviction, will overturn the history. Hi, this is
my favorite murder. That's Karen, and that's Georgian. We're here
to talk about crime and punishment and all the things
that we like that a lot of people really don't.
(00:48):
I feel like so many people are emailing us and
being like thank you that they do.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, I'm always too embarrassed to talk about it with anyone.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Do you think even like even grammar school teachers and
even cheerleaders have these feelings.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I think most women like to talk about murder.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, and some dudes.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Some dudes do.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Okay, Well, here's the thing I read recently. Did you
know there's they have like an age range that you'll
most likely like this is when this is when your
chances of getting murdered are the work at this age,
like they have an exact age.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And this is from Paranoia magazine.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Now this is from fucking psychology today.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Okay, similar.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, it was a relief because we're both older than
this age.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Okay, good.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
So the average aid of homicide victims into this last
time I guess was two thousand and eight was thirty
two point seven years old.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Boo.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And then the average age of murderers in two thousand
and eight was twenty eight point eight.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
WHOA interesting, Yeah, like that's very young seems to me.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
To get murdered or to murder, uh, to be a murderer,
that seems young.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I you know, I would have guessed old, younger personally.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
You would have guessed younger for the money because.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
You have less control over your impulses and that sort
of thing. But by twenty eight you're like, I'm gonna
be a murderer definitely or no, I.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Want you know what it is too.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I think when I think of stuff like this, I'm
thinking of this specific kind of money that I'm interested in,
where obviously this is this is gang tarmafia all you know,
tar puls all that stuff, spousal abuse, the crimes of passion,
times of partion, crimes of portune.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
What about you know what, I'm really afraid of getting
shot out on the freeway.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Ooh yeah, what about someone throwing a brick over and
off and overpass onto your windshield? Oh?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Do that? No, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Does that happen to people?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
M hm? There was, Like sometimes there's there's like I
was gonna say spates of that, but I'm not sure
if that's.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
The right word. That's terrifying.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Little that starts happening in certain parts of that's a
that's a very Los Angeles thing.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
No sure, I know.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I gotta go, Kay bye, I gotta go.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I gotta go.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
And to be murdered thirty two that sounds right because
you're like, you're out of your twenties. You kind of
like you relax into adulthood. You think you got it together.
You no longer carry your keys between your fingers at night.
You're kind of like, look, I lived in the city
long enough. You let your shoulders down a little bit,
you relax.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, the fun kind of murders that we like, that's
like your a college co ed. Yeah, not fun. And
I don't like them.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Just to clear this up, whatever we have, we simply
must demand understanding from our audience.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
That's what we're going to have to stop explaining that A.
We don't want to be murdered by anyone we did.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
You know why is because I made the fatal mistake
of not only reading some of our iTunes reviews that
were bad, which were there were very few, so I
went straight to them and then telling you about them.
And like the funny one was one where I was like,
these women have no respect. They're laughing about child death
or whatever. And so I keep feeling like I have
to clarify or be apologetic, call.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Her and be like, let me tell you about this.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I pictured it to be an old man with horn
rim glasses and kind of half balding, kind of like
an old Bob Odenkirk is the way I was picturing it,
Just like a crooked finger shaking at the screen always
you women, his grandson comes and boots it up for
him every day.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, we just said we can't. We have to be
talking to the people that understand us. Yeah, they get us,
they do, and they like it. Like you're saying, they're excited.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
I was going to ask you a question, and I
forgot it. I'm just going to keep telling each other
that that people like murder.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
They like it.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, why would they be listening to a podcast called
My Favorite Murder?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah? People are much smarter than the media would have
you believe.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Do you want to go first? You want to talk
about your favorite murder? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Maybe after this one, we're going to start having categories
each time. Sure, like call a theme? Yeah, theme totally.
So we're not right now. So I was just like
in the wind, twisting in the wind to grab one.
Why it's been harder? Yeah? So you, why don't you
go first? That's my point? Oh okay, no wait, why
(05:18):
don't I go first? And then you? Your yours is
probably really well researched.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Goh, because I have a legal path.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Huh.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I just carry that around with me like a nerd.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
There's nothing written like the same word written over and
over and over again.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
It just says murder Georgia, over and over on this
whole time.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
It was you that murdered me. Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, that's the great irony of life. It's always what's
right in front of you. Nice to meet you, my
m meet my murderer.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
All right, Well mine is my favorite murder this week
is one that I'm sure you know about, and it's
a classic, and I feel like I just need to
get out of the way because whenever and there's been
recent news updates about it, and whenever I see it,
whenever I watched a documentary about it, fucking in it. Yeah,
it's the murder of Martha Moxley.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Oh, Georgia, you know, I gotta tell you.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, just the name Martha Moxley, Moxley, the word Moxley.
It's the best name and it's the worst story.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
It's just like and she's she's just a fucking kid.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah. So if those who don't know don't know anything,
apparently Martha Moxley uh in nineteen seventy five, she was
a fifteen year old girl living in Greenwich, Connecticut, which
is a fucking tony town.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Loved the word tony.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Don't they have like their own gates and stuff. It's
like truly like crazy.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Risk yeah, and it's like you live on acres.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
So, Martha Moxley's body was found beaten in her yard
the night after Halloween. It was she was beaten. They
found half of a golf club there, which is what
had been used to beat her. She's like a cute
pretty This doesn't matter. She could be ugly, it's still terrible.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
She looks like a girl that's in a black and
white picture in an eighties year book.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
She's like that perfect girl, like.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
The popular but like but she's also on student body.
Like she's popular and smart and she's not mean, you know,
l freckles, genuine smile like. She'd probably end up being
like a like a lawyer for like the ocean, you know,
like a lawyer defending.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Like actually getting something good done. Osha, Is that a thing? Osha?
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yes, But OSHA's is the work, the work environment, making
make sure, making sure it's safe for people to work there.
She'd be she'd be a lawyer for them. Okay, I
like the ocean too. It's kind of nice. She just
has dolphins all around her anyhow, she.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Totally has dolphins. So the person who ended up ultimately
getting arrested and put in jail for this murder, but
not until two thousand and two was her neighbor who
lived across the street, who was her age, named Michael Skeakell,
who this is so unimportant and such a stupid fact
of the whole thing. But probably the reason why it's
(08:09):
a famous murder is that the Michael Skegle's family was
related to Senator Robert Kennedy's wife, Ethel Kennedy. Skale Kennedy,
who RFK has been in on this podcast is so
my favorite murder in the past. Anyways, So what recently
(08:30):
happened is that Michael Skekell has been released from jail.
Oh I didn't know that they filed for a new
trial because he was not adequately represented by his defense attorney,
doubt it. The habeas petition was granted, the judgment of
conviction is set aside, and the matter is referred back
so for retrial, meaning as far as I know, so
(08:54):
he got out and as far as I know, it
doesn't look like they're pursuing the case anymore because I guess,
you know, they had very little. It was all circumstantial evidence,
not even that wasn't very strong, so surprising that he
got convicted. However, he admitted that that night, somewhere between
ten and two in the morning or something like that,
(09:17):
he was in a tree masturbating while looking in Martha
Moxley's window.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yes, that was the justification of why his semen would
be on her body.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
It was on her body. Yeah, Okay, that's the stupidest
thing I've ever heard in my life, right, I.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Mean, clearly he had pretty good lawyers the first time around.
It they're coming up with shit like that. It's just
I know, this is insane biased because I've seen this
like so many versions of this story.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
But it's but I've decided. I've decided. But I mean
it's because of things like that.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Well, the problem with it is is that there's other
strong suspects, you know, like the brother, the brother who
was making out with her that evening, which is why
maybe Michael got jealous and killed her or did she
catch him? Jernking off? Like, how did she come out there?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Do you suppose I think she was out because it
was Mischief Night?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Right? Was it the night before Halloween or Halloween?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
It was?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Uh yeah, sorry, I know you're so the night before Halloween. Yeah,
Mischief Night, which I didn't know was a thing. I know,
it's not a thing out here. I think it's it
might be for exclusively for rich white people. In Greenwich, but.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's also in Detroit, which is terrifying. Oh is that?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, a slightly different tone of that night.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Every night is Mischief Knight in Detroit.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, I've never heard of Mischief Knight until I heard
the story.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, me too. So yeah, so like the most obvious
answer is usually the correct answer. Yeah, and him jerking
off in a tree and not being the killer is
not the obvious answer, that's right.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Well, and also, just then, why weren't there other people even,
you know, like it just didn't seem like there was
other people brought forward because this is one of not
just a safetown or whatever, it's like an exclusive shut
off city.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah. But here's the thing, is there the scay Gulls
had a had a tutor.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Named John Let's see, we done something foreign Ken.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Ken Littleton. Oh okay, So he was a tutor and
they were like, this guy's sketchy, and so he was
a suspect for a long time too.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Why was he sketchy? Do you remember?
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Because maybe he had a part on for Martha Moxley.
Oh okay, but he says he never even met her. Okay,
but then so recently, Kobe Bryant. Here's another like relative,
Kobe Bryant's cousin. His name is Tony Bryant. Okay, Like,
why are there needs to be, you know, connections to
(11:54):
family members that are famous. I don't know. Says that
he knows who killed Martha Moxley. He's from this town. Oh,
and he came out recently and said, I know who
actually did it.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
And it wasn't Michael Skeggle.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
No, he says it was two of his friends who
lived in.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Or I love the Bronx, I believe.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, two friends visiting him from the Bronx. They went
to Moxley's neighborhood the night of the murder, and this
guy Bryant was with them. The two friends reportedly picked
up Skegele's golf clubs from Skeegele's yard, which is what
she was murdered with on a whim, and told Bryant
they wanted to attack a girl, quote caveman style, using
the clubs. Bryant says he left the neighborhood and learned
about the murder later, and the friends told him they
(12:39):
committed the crime, but he never said anything. So now
he's saying he's coming forward with the story. If the
story is true, I called bullshit on him leaving. He
was he was there.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
People are going to tell you to your face they're
going to kill a girl, and you're like, well, I've
got to go.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
AI, So what kind of person? I mean?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Look whatever, there's all details. You could run a million scenario.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I just don't think a teenager would be like would
leave even if he was like, I don't want to
murder anyone. I just want to see what happens. Or
I don't believe these guys.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
You know.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Well here The other thing I remember hearing is that
the Scagell's golf clubs, the set of clubs were in
their attic that the cops found them later with that
one club missing. So the idea that they were picking
golf clubs out of a front yard seems a bit bullshitty.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Or did someone stash the golf clubs up there after
they realized the murder weapon was a.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Golf club or that could be connected to them.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Did Michael Skagle do it put the golf clubs up there?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
That the dad the mom.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Weren't the dad the mom gone, They were gone, like
the dad mom almost didn't live there. They were like
teen boys that lived on their.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Own, rich white teen boys running a mac that lived
on them her own. That sounds now?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Am I wrong to assume that Kobe Bryant's cousin is
black and that the kids coming in from whatever did
you say, Brooklyn or the Bronx Bronx coming in from
the Bronx were black.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
That's an assumption we could make.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
I would think that the Greenwich, Connecticut cops would see
three black kids walking around on mischief night and at
least ask a question totally, if not harassed the fuck
out of them.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
And then how did Michael Skaegle seem him a guest
to go back and get on this poor girl, this
poor girl in her poor every interview like her family
is like die hard, like we never did anything else
with our lives, but try to get justice. Yeah, it's
fucking heartbreaking for this poor family.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
There's I remember I remember seeing this story way early
in a It wasn't Forensic Files, but it was like
one of those ones, and they interviewed the mom. Oh
she's she seemed like a thousand miles away. I remember
watching it and just going, oh, I never want to
see any murder victims. Mom speak again, because that's the
most painful thing.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
You know, what hurts me up. The brothers, brothers of
the murder victims always bought me out because they're like,
I should have been there to help my little sister.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, oh terrible. Well.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Also, I don't like the idea that so he has served.
Was it thirty years in prison or twenty?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
No, he didn't get arrested until two thousand and two.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Oh, so this is crazy like white people justice, where
it's a rich guy who basically kind of did a
symbolic time and now they're faking out some black people
to say, hey, maybe we did it, and then his
thing goes away.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Probably he didn't. Michael Skigle didn't get arrested until unconvicted
for twenty seven years he was free. So this whole
thing happened. I think it was two thousand and two.
So I remember having watched the whole story of the
murder and then like that happened. It was insane. I
never thought he would get anyone. We get arrested for it,
and now he's sucking out again. So he's spent he's
(16:05):
spent a couple of years.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I just think that the logic of.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Oh, wait, so two thousand he was arrested and then yeah,
now he's out. Yeah, the logic of.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Oh, just the logic of a very rich teen boy
who gets spurned and maybe even shamed like his older
brother who ruins his life and every other way, gets
the girl that he likes him having this huge, crazy
emotional reaction in the moment that he maybe hugely regrets
even but that and maybe even a girl that he
(16:39):
was obsessed with that sparking murderous, murderous rampage makes way
more sense than just a teen going I'm gonna kill
a girl tonight caveman style, Like, you have to be
a very specific type of person to be able to
do that in the first place. It's not like going
I'm gonna sniff glue.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And then there were two other kids at Michael Skeaikell's
boarding school later who said he admitted to it. Yeah,
so these kids from the Bronx would have probably gone
back and bragged about it, and there would have been
more people saying that they did it, not Kobe Bryant's cousin.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah, but I just hate that idea that I mean it.
Most black people have a hard time driving around Los Angeles, California.
You're going to roll up into Greenwich, Connecticut and just
be like, let's see what we can do murder wise.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Like wander around with clubs.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
No, Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Also, if you live in the bronx, where you're getting
the gas money, where you getting any of the money
to get there? Yeah, Like I don't know, it doesn't
It just doesn't add up as quickly to me. It's
just a it's but what's the Yeah, I don't know,
but who knows?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And I just don't understand why this guy, who has
a family Kobe Bryant's cousin, would want to do that.
But there's a fucking narcissistic people who want attention all
the time. Or maybe he really believes it.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Maybe he believes it.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And maybe he doesn't he's remembering incorrectly. He really believes
that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Here's what I will say.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
I love the idea that we still get to talk
about the Martha Moxley murderer, that there's something still happening
with Yeah, that's fascinating to me.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
No one's in prison for her murder still, Yeah, did
I want Michael Skaigeld not to have done it, Like
I want there to be a different answer, but I
don't think there is.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I think that the thing it comes down to with
me with a lot of these stories is my irritation
over the fact that people accept kind of like like,
if you're a white guy wearing a button down Oxford shirt,
you can kind of do whatever the fuck you want
and people will be like, oh no, that nice boy
down the street. Yeah, like you can you get to
hide in plain sight with this camouflage and meanwhile, be
(18:45):
whatever and people will not believe it. Yeah, they'll immediately
believe three black kids driving up from the Bronx to
kill this one girl.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
It's just such a bummer because I think what I
don't want him to be guilty is because he is
such a fucking loser and such a little twerp. But
he doesn't deserve. I want it to be more sensational
because she deserves to not have just been killed by
this little little shit face.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, who is jealous of a thing that's a that's
like a friend zone murder, that's what that.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Is, Or like you want to fuck my brother and
not me, I'm.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Jealous yeah, yeah, which.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Is such an obvious boring I get. This is why
I like cold cases is because you can imagine that
it's more complicated and mysterious and bigger within the answer,
which is usually the answer is just some fucking dude
didn't take.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
His meds and went crazy. Right, It's like, and this
guy's a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And the murder victim was a good person who deserved
And I always think, like, just kill yourself. Don't kill
someone else, Please just kill yourself.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
I mean that was if they had any kind of
nobility about them whatsoever. Well, and also the other thing
too is you can't just leave kids just because you're
rich or just because you can like get a tutor,
especially like teen boys are the ones that need to
be like observed and ridden and like disciplined constantly. They
have to be there have to be boundaries. No, And
(20:13):
it's the seventies, so they were like on drugs and
smoking pot and drinking all the time. They did whatever
they wanted. I mean to me, in my mind, it's
much more likely that a rich kid, a super rich
teenage boy, would murder a girl.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, who has too much privilege and affluence and has
always gotten away with whatever he wants.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
We're Kennedy's.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Were the Kennedys of Greenwich, right, yeah, yeah, come on,
oh man back.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's your murder a Moxley.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Well, so I picked mine because we were talking about
hitchhiking and laughing about how insanely dangerous and crazy hitch
taking is. And so I want to look up why
we think that and know that and what the story,
what the actual stories and murders are behind that.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
And it turns out.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
That there I looked up freeway killer because I remember
hearing there was like the story of the one guy
with the van on the freeway. It turns out there
were three. Wow, and between like the mid seventies and
nineteen eighty, there were three serial killers that dumped bodies
on freeways in Los Angeles and southern California, working all
(21:33):
at the same.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Time in this area, in this area.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
And on top of that, in the same timeframe were
the hillside stranglers.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, and so they weren't even counted in this because
they'd dump bodies.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, but they'd dumb bodies in the hills. So they
would take women off the streets and then they would
they it was where they were dumping in the hills,
that's what they called them, hillside. They thought it was
one guy doing it, like as if they were walking
up there, and then realized they were bringing by too there.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
I just think it's crazy that when two people joined
forces and are both in agreement that they want to
do the same, Like, it's insane. How do you find
someone like that?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Okay, that's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
And here's why I love the story because the guy
I focused on is William Bonnen. He had four accomplices
over his uh I believe it if it was just
a year or it was like a year and a
half where he was doing the most most of these
killers killings, sorry, and he had four different people who
helped him.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
That's insane.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
It's crazy.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Something was going on in the late seventies because that's
also when Bundy, when John Wayne Gacy, like it was
all around nineteen seventy eight. There was this weird explosion
of like maybe it was just that people learned about
what it was and the story started coming out like
Dahmer was later, right, Dahmer was later?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean or because the term serial killer
wasn't even coined intel, but it didn't mean that they
weren't if they weren't doing that right, just don't think
people understood.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
And also, how do you introduce that concept to like
without introducing huge mass panic. So one of the guys,
I'll just tell you the other ones. First one was
the scorecard Killer. And this was a guy named Randy Craft.
So from nineteen seventy two to nineteen eighty three, he
killed for sure sixteen boys, but they think fifty one
(23:25):
and fifty one. And there was also and he they
call him scorecard Killer because he kept this really long
list where he had code words for the people that
he killed, so they were able to track. That's why
they know it's at least fifty one, because there would
just be a word that would say like tank top
(23:46):
or whatever that would somehow relate to the victim.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Oh my god, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
It's crazy. And he was like the he looked like
anyone in the store. When you see pictures, he looks
like a high school teacher. Holy, he looks like he
would have been on episode of Mary Tyler Moore. He
has like kind of a pointy nose and like he
has kind of a jolly looking face.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I think he's a guy seventies.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
A guy in the seventies just like, hey, come on,
do you need a ride?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
And he would pick up little kids.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
He would pick up men of any kind, okay, and
then he would brutally he would brutally rape them and
then dump their bodies. There was also Patrick Wayne Karney
who worked from seventy five to seventy seven, who killed uh,
definitely twenty eighth.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
That's two years. He killed twenty eight.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
People, twenty eight and they think forty three. They just
can only pin twenty eight on him.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, Like there's no way he didn't start earlier and
they just don't know yet.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Right exactly, and especially because at this time, imagine three
of these people doing this at once, and this guy
would pick up hitchhikers, shoot them in the head, then
do stuff to their bodies, and then wrap them in
trash back.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
And keep their heads. Is that's him?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
No, Uh, well not that I know of.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
No, I don't think I think that's anyways, Yeah, this.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Is one of these people.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
No, Well, anyway, I imagine like living right now and
like like how you know summer of sam how like, yeah,
there's a person killing people out there right now.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Like I just wouldn't leave the house anymore, I know.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
And three three, and it's not three.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Of them that at any given time could be driving
down any fucking street.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
But the key in this, in all three of these,
and the reason that they didn't go that they went
on solved for so long, is because they were gay.
It was gay boys, and it was it was that
situation of boy hitchhikers, usually young and for William Bonnan,
his youngest was twelve, a little boy who was trying
(25:46):
to get to Disneyland. And but William Bonnen is like
the worst, the worst of the worst. We can just
go through his super quick because it's just a humongous bummer.
He's kind of got shades of Charles Manson in that
way where it was never okay for him from day one.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
So he he was born to two alcoholic parents and
the mom left him and his two brothers with her father,
who molested her and who molested the boys. Then he
he ran away when he was nine and he got
arrested for stealing license plates and he got sent to
(26:27):
a boy's you know, like Juvie basically for boys, where
he was again raped and molested. And there's a super
dark story. This is if you don't like dark things,
this will bum you out. So spoiler alert, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Spoil your life alert. Let's just spoil.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Spoiler spoiler your entire life. They told a story of
the first time he was someone approached him in this
in juvie to say that they were going to like
fuck him essentially, and he asked the boy to tie
his hands behind his back first because it made him
feel safe. That's how badly he was being molested by
(27:06):
his grandfather. So he was we can talk about this
person and at least draw a strain of like with
that why question that I always have with this, Like
you cannot torture human beings?
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Do you create a serial killer?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Just follow this guy's life.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, basically, And you know, neglect. They were like the
neighborhood people said that they look like they were starving
all the time. They were like, you know, they were
completely neglected children who then of course became criminals because
what else were they going to do.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Well, it's the thing I'm like, where do you go
At what point do you switch from feeling sorry for
this child to thinking that this man should be dead?
You know, Like, right, there's like a moment. I guess
it's when he kills the first person here to go.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah, because there's a lot of people that get molested
and fucked with as children who never do anything bad
to other people totally, So it's there's definitely that element
of responsibility. But it's just like you just see that
thing where like if that mother couldn't be responsible enough
to go, I'm going to get you out of this
cycle of abuse and not let what happened to me
happened to you.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
But how horrible that is.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
So anyway, he of course then when he gets out
of like that juvie, he starts molesting kids in the neighborhood.
I mean this is just like now with the thing
that he does. He gets arrested for it once, then
he gets sent to I think, he goes to Vietnam,
has a full tour in the Air Force. He joins
the Air Force, he came back, he was in Vietnam
(28:36):
from sixteen nine to seventy one, came back and immediately
started kidnapping and raping boys.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
He did it to five boys.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Can you imagine the fucking fondling he did in Vietnam?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Yeah, Like that was like a free for all from
him a bit, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, he could do anything he wanted.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
So he comes back, he gets caught for kidnapping and
raping five different boys. They send him to a mental hospital.
So he goes from being in a mental hospital. In
the mental hospital, they say he's he can't be rehabilitated,
so they send him to real jail.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
But then he's.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Released in nineteen seventy four because there they decide he's
no longer a danger to others.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
You've got to be kidding, uh huh.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
And so sixteen months later he's charged with the gunpoint
rape of a fourteen year old hitchhiker and the attempted
abduction of another teen So he's sentenced from one to
fifteen years in jail.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
From one to fifteen years, one to two to that.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Yeah, just you know, go think about what you did
for a little while a year that you've been doing
your entire life.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
The fucking penal system. Of all these stories of horrific things,
I'm usually the most disturbed and disgusted by how a
little time people get for heinous Yeah, the crimes.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Well, it's when when our rape and child Wileston going
to start being really seen as like, these are people
who should not be in should not be getting out in.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Six I don't know, but when that happens, they're going
to stop putting a fucking statute of limitations on prosecuting
people for rape. Yeah, there's a statute of limitations sure
for rape and kidnapping. Yeah, how fucking how fucked up's
that the cops can't find the dude who raped and
kidnapped you for fifteen years?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Is that away?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
He's free now?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Sure, do what you want, since boys will be boys.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
So in nineteen seventy eight, Uh, he's released from jail
and he moved to Downey and forgot.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I was just in down everything and I read that
I had breakfast, and I read the criminal section of their.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Newspaper too, anything exciting happening.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
There was a home invasion robbery here.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Oh okay, it's not too bad.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
They later found out that he murdered a thirteen year
old hitchhiker, but he was ultimately arrested for molesting a
boy in Dana Point. Should have gone back to prison
because he was on parole at the time, but due
to a clerical error, clerical clerical error, he.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Was released someone spelled his last name wrong exactly.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
He walked right out of the jail and he got
picked up by his main accomplice for all of these murders,
a man named what is it something Butts, something something Butts.
It's a classic name.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
So anyway, and that's when he tells, he tells Butts,
Now there's.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Not gonna be any more witnesses.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
That's what you're creating when you keep letting these people,
when you keep arresting them for one to fifteen years,
is that they learn the lesson not to let anyone
identify them right by it, so you should kill them.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
So then he makes this what they ended up calling, uh,
like the death machine or something. And it's this green
forda'conoline van that he's got chains, he's got like handcuffed,
he's got all this stuff. And they would pick up hitchhikers.
The Butts guy would be in the back and then
(32:04):
they basically he'd like pull over and like attack and rape.
And he he was a big strangler. He for most
of his victims, he strangled them with a T shirt.
That's so that's how he killed most of them. And
uh uh Vernon Butts. That was his first vernon and
(32:24):
they also were lovers, uh, and they played Dungeons Dragons
in the sewer system of Los Angeles. That was just
a small detail that I wrote on the side of
here that I remembered, and I just am fascinated.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
That's a lot. That's him.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Just if we could kind of go into that for
quite some time. But I find that fascinating. This isn't
a gaming podcast, otherwise we would get we would get
so into it. Oh so basically it's just he Then
it was basically a year long tear where they went
and picked up you know, what they think is I
(33:02):
think he got prosecuted. What did I say, he got
prosecuted for sixteen? He was no, he got prosecuted for fourteen.
But they think he did forty four murders.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
That is the most staggering number. And the people were
getting fucking kidnapped left and right.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Just boys disappearing everywhere. And apparently there was a reporter
at the Orange County Register, which is you know, as
you know, Orange County is very Republican, very white, Republican
kind of Christian area in southern California, and he found
an envelope the Southern County Register with all the paper
clippings of all these different individual stories of hitchhikers or
(33:40):
bodies that were found murdered, and on the front of
the envelope it said dead gay boys. So he was like,
why isn't anybody looking at this as like like some
a trend at.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
The very least. But that was basically he he kind
of wrote.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
I think he wrote a book. He wrote something about that.
I was reading. Part of that was basically all about
how the attitude was like, well, too bad for them
because they signed up for that lifestyle the same as prostitutes, right, like,
well they live what was it, a high risk estyle?
They chose to live a high risk lifestyle, which is
so okay, you're right, so then any serial killer should
(34:16):
get to do whatever you want. Y.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yeah, that's bananas. It's super crazy, I am. But I
mean just the thought of knowing that there are those
people out there, I mean there are now, but like
in your working actively, in your in your.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
In your hood, in your hood, well and also down here,
I mean there was so much murder down here. And
also seventy eight was the same year as Jonestown, but
there was something there was something in the air, you
know what I think.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Of like murder in the eighties, seventies and eighties, and
like how like people were so miners were unaccompanied, like
just as a rule, like you could go and do
your own thing.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
We would.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
We would leave and be gone all day and then
come back when it's dark yep, Like picture a fucking
a fucking arcade and like all the kids that were
just hanging out in arcades, and all the perverts were
probably working there.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yes, intentionally working at it arcade because kids would be there. Yeah,
I mean it's a scarier, it's a scary thing to know,
like to have the information, but it's such a better
time for children health wise, I think in all those ways,
because it's like, yeah, if you have kids, you probably
should know where they are all the time, and you
should probably make sure there's an adult with them that's responsible.
(35:30):
Definitely if we leave you with anything. This week, yeah, you.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Know, we stayed at home alone every day. We were
latchkey kids.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
We were too Me and my sister crazy, so crazy.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
One day we went to get dropped off and we
just at the last minute decided to get dropped off
on my aunt's house. Because she lived next door and
our house was being robbed at the time. Oh, my God,
of that decision.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Are you serious?
Speaker 2 (35:54):
I swear to God.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
My uncle saw the guy walking out our front door
with stuff under his arm as he drove by, and
so he called the cops.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Holy the guy get caught. No, holy shit, if you
had fucking walked in on a burglar.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah to uh.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
At the time, I think we were like eight and
ten Jesus walking in on a very large bearded man
looting our house.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
I definitely remember being offered rides as a kid by
like strange men, being like no, I used.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
To walk like literally a mile to school. Yeah, by myself,
by myself.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
It's so stupid.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
I used to ditch school and then they like go
hang out and it's like, oh, you could have just
been you dumb idiot. I know. We're so lucky to
have survived.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
You know what, God bless America. You know this is
a positive time.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Oh wait, no, now we get to read some of
your hometown murders.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
We've asked you guys to send us hometown murders because
we love it and you've done it and we appreciate it.
We have a Facebook group my favorite murder, and we
have a Gmail account my favorite Murder, so you can
send us your hometown murder. I'm gonna review on Karen
and you read me one perfect Okay, want me to
go first? You want to go first?
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (37:06):
This is by Mark Schrum. I'm I'm Mark. He's very nice,
he said. He said. I hope I have the right email.
If not, I'm sorry for the frightening subject line because
if it went to the wrong person. It just is
my favorite murder.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Open up your email and you're like, there's just someone
describing a murder too.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
How you would be shitting a brick?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Mark, He says. When I was a freshman in high school,
there was a high profile kidnapping case here in west
of Wines, Iowa. Maybe you heard of it. It was
the Johnny Gorsh Ghost Johnny Ghosh case. Yes, it's pretty
well known nationwide and drug on for years and isn't
one hundred percent solved of this day. This happened in
nineteen eighty two. He was a paper boy and was kidnapped.
Well doing his paper route one morning. Didn't they just
(37:53):
find his bike and that's it?
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
There was another boy, Eugene Martin, that was taken in
nineteen eighty four. Same story. He was a paper My
story comes in nineteen eighty three when I was a
paper boy.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Mark.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Your mom should not have let you be a paper boy.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Mark.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
My brother and I were delivering papers one morning and
it was still dark. We were on a street that
the houses were pretty far apart and set back from
the road, so we weren't right on the street. I
looked up the street and saw a blue panel van
coming down the street extremely slow with no headlights on.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Uh oh.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
As we walked, it kept following my brother from the street. Wait.
My brother and I had walkie talkies awesome nice, so
we were communicating about it, and we decided to run
and head behind the houses to get away from the
street and meet up a few houses down. As we
took off running, the van took off down the street
and finally, after a few houses, turned the lights on
and sped away. Was I going to me next? I
(38:45):
guess I'll never know. About five minutes later we saw
a manager told him and he called it into the
paper dispatch. I don't know, weren't from there, but I
was never questioned by the police, and one year later
Eugene was gone, Oh haunts me to this day, even
though you are only one of the handful of people
I've ever spoken to about it since it happened. Wow, Mark, uh,
(39:07):
he said, keep up the good work and don't ever
remove the humor from the podcast. That is just depressing.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
We did it a little bit on this one.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
He said. It isn't being disrespectful and you aren't going
to hell. We're just cope. We are just coping with
a fucked up world and the best way we know how.
And he wrote, fing you, thank you, Mark, thank you, Mark.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
That's so true. It's coping. It's coping. It's coping.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
But wow, ground zero at the Johnny Gosh because.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Of no way that wasn't involved. He was in the
middle between two boys, paper boys being kidnapped.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
If you're driving a van, you should be pulled over
more than people of color.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Vans are. What good is happening in a van?
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Especially like are a green van with their headlights off,
slowly cruising down the street. Please, you're the biggest child.
Loster my guy that I just did.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
William Bonnan had a green van who murdered, so many people.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Like you're either a serial killer or your Scooby Doo team.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Yes, but Scooby Doo they were smart enough to put
pink daisies on the side, which is really declared it
was the mystery machine, but it actually means rape and
murder murder.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Well.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Also, if anyone is interested in going deeper into the
Johnny Gosh kidnapping, did you listen to that last podcast
on the left about it's about the pedophile ring and
the conspiracy theory about the the credit union that's in
that town and the guy that runs it and these
this governmental conspiracy. The name is uh, what's the reporter's name. Yes,
(40:39):
it's the same name, that's right. It's the same name
as of Larry King. Larry King, Larry King, that's right,
Lawrence King. Is his name, Lawrence King, Lawrence King? Credit Union?
And what is it? It's is it Iowa?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Or where?
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Did where did Mark say he was?
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Mark was from Des Moines? Yeah, yeah, So it's all
it's crazy connected and there's like a whole thing about
about it being a sex child sex ring. He started
a youth group and like just be friend of these
kids and these and the kids in the documentary that
I saw were like being like, yeah, he made us
go get kids for him.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, the kids talk about it. I mean. And also
it's that thing of like people.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
It's like, no one wants to believe something when happened
in Des Moines as if like if it's a pedal
fire ring, it would have to be in Manhattan or something.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Right, Oh, it's bad news.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
And the people that you trust the most are the shadiest.
It's like your parents, so don't trust anyway.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
I feel like the pillars of the community I mean
are usually previous.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
I mean, with great power comes great corruption. No, no
power corrupts.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
That's the same. Yeah. Does The other one is.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Forget it? Forget I said, there's a whole one out
of all of those somewhere, there's.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
A whole one something somewhere of ideas. Yep, okay, here's mine.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Parents. This is from Emily.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
I'm assuming that you pronounce it may Sar and it's
the Asheville hometown murder story.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
George and Karen.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
So I live in Asheville, North Carolina, and have since
I was in kindergarten. We lived in Anca Candler, though,
which is an unincorporated community on the west side of
the city. When I was in elementary school, first or
second grade, my sister had a friend. I say friend,
but they were probably somewhere between friends and acquaintances. It
was high school and it was the nineties. There was
(42:27):
probably gray area. My sister was a sophomore, maybe fifteen,
and so was this girl. My sister was supposed to
spend the night at this girl's house, but something came
up and my sister going to go. I was so young,
though that I can't remember if it was on our
side or her friends. Looking back, probably the latter. That night,
the girl's mother's boyfriend murdered my sister's friend. If I
(42:48):
remember correctly, I think he wrapped her in trash bags
tied weight store legs, dropped the body in the amazingly
shallow lake, where she was discovered a day or two later.
I honestly I have no idea if there was a
sexual element into this crime. I'm inclined to say us
only because statistically there usually is for both women in
general and specifically young women. But the Internet is no
help with real details, probably because it was so long ago,
(43:10):
or maybe because it was such a small town. Either way,
It's a thing that I think about occasionally when I
think about my sister, because it's fucking terrifying. He was
sentenced to a little under seventeen years for murdering a team,
you know, murdering. Oh so if he's alive now, I
have no idea he's probably out, probably again terrifying.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Emily, thank you. That is unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
That's incredible that that happened in your life.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Oh my god. Yeah, those near myths stories are like,
those are the best.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Maybe that young and be like, oh this is things.
People do this to each other, right, Yeah, the innocence lost. Yeah,
it's so intense and also just like a friend dying
in an in some other like a drunk driving actor
in or like.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
A typical way is awful.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yeah, but this adds an element of like someone the
hell this person?
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, oh my lord, wow, seven hundred seventeen years he.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Got the same amount of time that she got to
live on the planet.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
That's fuck you, bullshit, fuck you judge. Whoever decided that.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Well, I bet he that's all he could do. I
bet it was like it wasn't premeditated, And I bet
this guy said it was like an accident, and so
I just got rid of about like, right, this is
such bullshit the rationale behind it.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, whoa, guys, this has been this episode has been
a lot.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
It's been kind of depressing.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
It's been a lot to handle, a lot of murders,
a lot of a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
I mean, it is what is what we're doing, It's
what we signed up for.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
This was Yeah, this was an intense This was a downer.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
But I do like the idea for going forward thinking
of themes that would help us kind of talk about
more general concepts around, right.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I mean, that's the idea that you want to do.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
Like definitely think So, okay, do you have any ideas
for them too? I'm thinking like child killers and people
who killed children and you know what even like child
children who kill that you know, shootings and bab it off.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
People with glass eyes. Yeah, this specific something really crazy. Yeah, well,
because I and I know we plug this all the time,
but we love Last Podcasts on the Left. It's one
of my favorite podcasts. But they just recently did one
about Dean Coral, who is the candyman killer in Houston.
I think, and one of the things I find so
(45:30):
fascinating in the way they do it is Marcus Parks,
who is their researcher and provides most of like the
context content or whatever. Like they were talking about he
got away with all these murders because there was no
at the time, there was no police force. Like there
was one point something million people living there and there
was like twenty two hundred policemen. Like this impossible. And
(45:53):
there's just these things that happen in history and in
time where like all of a sudden, like in nineteen
seventy eight in Los Angeles, you did not want to
be a teenage boy that looked slightly effeminate or hitchhiked.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, like that.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
You your odds of living through that were very low.
And that's just like these weird sine waves of the times. Yeah,
things happening all at once. It's just crazy. Yeah, a
culmination of circumstances. Yeah, yeah, I'm into it, but.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
In a negative way, but in a fascinated way.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
And we're trying to cope, as Marcus said, I mean Mark,
what is his name?
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Your guys's name is Mark.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
We're coping, We're trying to cope, trying to help what
we're trying to talk about it in anxiety.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
So email us your hometown murders or your favorite murder
and go to the Facebook group and the Twitter my
favor murder.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Oh yeah, and we and some people are just emailing suggestions.
There's lots of really good ones, so we'll get to
those two and suggesting. Someone suggested a really good documentary
called The House of Suh, which I looked up and
has like an eighty three percent ratings, so I'm definitely
gonna watch that.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
So yeah, Oh, there is someone on the Facebook group.
Oh I wish I had their name who's making a
fucking Google doc of every suggestion we bring up for
like a movie, a book, a documentary of this.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
That's so awesome. I know, that's very cool.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
If you if you join the Facebook group, which is closed,
you'll find it on there.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Cool. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Yeah, and we'll try to make them and then we'll
try to convey yours that you tell us.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, awesome, Yes, I love it. Rate, subscribe and review
so we can get a lot of listeners, you guys.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Yeah, and thanks for listening. Thank you for listening for
us with us.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
My
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Georgia Hardstark
Karen Kilgariff
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