511 - They'll All Pay - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstar, that's
Karen Kilgariff, and this is I just had Kafye, So
I'm ready to fucking go. We are about to start
our Senior Honor Choir and you are going to be

(00:37):
the subject of it. Happy holidays everyone. Are you having
fun or are you stuck at the house you grew
up in with the people you grew up with? What
kind of quilt is on you right now? Is it?
Did your great aunt make it for you? Has it
ever been washed? Is it the cat's favorite quill because
it's not like cat py? Yeah, yes it does. That

(00:58):
means it's Christmas.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
You ever have when someone comes over and they like
cuddle up with a pillow and you don't want to
say to them.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Like, that's the dog's pillow. Does a rabbit? Oh my god?
That HAPs all the time, you know, it's funny. Is
I just hope no one ever goes and sits down
on my couch like independently, because I'm like, you're not right.
You're just gonna get it essentially, is what you're saying
all over yourself. I mean you can like that's exactly
where she puts her butthole. But I can't tell you
that now because you're putting your butthole there. Stop putting

(01:26):
your butthole on my dogs. Jesus Christ. That's the theme
for this holiday season. Amen, stop it.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Okay, we do have Speaking of holiday season, we like
ask people how they were giving back.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Oh, and you've got some anecdotes.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
I do, because we're doing our December donation thing, and
I have a funny one if you want to hear it.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yes, please, I'm giving.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Back this season a whole lot of Catholic daughter shit.
I usually try to do my holiday giving to strangers,
folks with deep knees I've never faced. But this year
I find those closest to me need a hand in
ways only someone close is really equipped for. I'm the
never married, childless adult daughter in my family, and we're
all entering the holiday season for the first time without
my dad, who died just after New Year's.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Twenty twenty five. Sorry.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
My mom's eighty, frail and alone for the first time
since a one year period in the early seventies between
her leaving the covent and meeting event between leaving the
convent and meeting my dad on a beach.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
In New Jersey.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Can we just leave in Covet because I want her
to dad, But actually, with a Satan worshiper, she.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Covets that story. Okay, So the nun left the convent,
went to the beach and picked up a man. Yeah,
I love it, and never left his side. No, my
sister has a year's long immune condition that can make
chasing after her grammar school aged little boys a real
uphill climb. So my spring, summer and holiday giving isn't
shits at a food bank or checks to charities. It's

(02:55):
lugging in the cat litter for mom's pets, sorting her
recyclables every week, joining her for an occasional menthol light
on kitchen stools by the window. Oh you watch Will
of Fortune? Oh that is the dream? Yeah. Or figure
skating competitions.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah, it's listening to my nephew's bitch about the nature
walks I march them on. Let my sister nap in
the afternoon, and my stumbling through impenetrably complex Pokemon battles
so she can go out and get a massage. Yeah,
I can mope a little like I'm the Cinderella and
all this but your question about how we're all getting
back allows me to make the case I may actually
be more like a luminous angel or a tinker bell

(03:32):
in all of this. That's right, at least that's how
I'll think about it next time I kneeled down scooping
a cat box for someone I love, E in Oregon. E,
what a beautiful thank you for sending that in and
what a beautiful sentiment.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
And because that is everything to the people you love
the most, So what a donation to give.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, there's always something you could do, even if you
don't think you have the means.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah. For example, when I'm home with my father over
the holidays and I get myself a coffee from usually
Pete's Coffee downtown, have it delivered to the house because
it's seven in the morning, I'll get him a lemon loaf. Oh, Karen,
I get him a lemon loaf. I won't make him
get his own just for Christmas, for the whole year,

(04:16):
just because, yeah, okay, because you don't. You don't want
to spoil him, Like, calm down, calm down to Jim, Dad,
that's your lemon loaf. So I don't know what else
you want from me. Did I tell you that? Did
I tell you on this podcast? Really? The only time
that counts that when I came home from Thanksgiving. When
I drove home it was twelve hours in the car,

(04:37):
he did. We talked about it.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
God damn, I talked about it with event. It's like
it was so hard to hear, so we like we
discussed it.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
I drove back down and then back up. No, I know,
I just still can't get over it. But also, nothing
else has happened to me since that, since that time.
I really surely that's a good segue.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
I have a podcast in case you're driving twelve hours,
Oh perfect, or you want to leave your life for
a minute in your head.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
I binge this podcast in twenty six hours.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
It's ten episodes, and I binge it within a little
over a day because it was so fucking good.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Okay, it's called Beth's Dead.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
So my friend Elizabeth Lame, she's been a podcaster since
twenty ten, so she's like OGI has always done it
with her husband, Andy Rosen. She's the sweetest person. And
they stopped podcasting suddenly out of nowhere because they had
a really awful experience with a listener oh no, And
so they told their friend Monica Padman from Armchair Expert

(05:35):
about it, and Monica, as podcasters do, said let's make
a podcast about it. Oh so it's ten episodes called
Beth's Dead about they had to quit podcasting because they
were so afraid for their lives. But the whole podcast,
it's almost like they're opening it back up and looking
into it, and Monica's kind of leading them along the way,
like find out what happened. It does not end the

(05:58):
way you think it's going to end. It's actually kind
of heartwarming. Well so, yeah, I mean, I don't want
to spoil it, but I'll use the term catfishing and
I'll just throw it out there because I know you
love a good cat fishing story.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
I mean, I think it's from being too old to
be on like the apps and really a part of
the real social part of the Internet. Do you have
fomo of being catfished a little bit? I just never.
I wasn't picked even to be catfished. They didn't know
how to get a hold of me. Me girl, when
it comes to catfishing. I really am wait, I'm trying

(06:33):
to Okay, I'm following that now. Okay, that's dead. I
love it. You just can't okay, down, put it down, yeah,
put it down. Of your ears. That's a really cool
one too, because it's like it deserves to be explained
or like gone into Yeah, but you know they say,
like well, and I don't know anything about it, but
it's like usually you're not supposed to give those things air.

(06:53):
And they made a whole serious about it.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
But it's also like explores parasocial relationships. So she was
like telling me that I should listen just as like
a cautionary tale.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
Really, I do all of it wrong. Yes, I mean
it's so hard it is, and also it isn't the
same as I don't know, it's just such a weird
different time. It's like there need to be updated rules
for this time.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Absolutely, And it was twenty fifteen, so she kind of
and she's such a sweetheart. She didn't really right, no,
that the relationship isn't what you think it's going to be,
and it's fucking gnarly.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Okay, we all have to listen to Bethstead and really
process some stuff. Yeah all right, Well, I got reminded
by our writer Alison and our producer Mollie as a
fun news update for the Parley Overpass, which was featured
and I talked about it in episode two fifty Look
Who's Passing, which later became an MFM animated Claire the

(07:46):
Bossy Deer. Yes, and it was all about that they
built this overpass so that animals could basically not be
in the road anymore. And Utah State University because it
happened in Utah, the Division of Wildlife Resources and Transportation.
I guess got love of them, right, love their work,

(08:06):
their work. Oh, those bitches are so real. I caught it.
But basically the overpass is going so good. Seventy seven
percent reduction in wildlife vehicle collisions. Wow, a fifteen million
dollar cost benefit over the bridge's lifetime. And their favorite
finding is most successfully crossed one hundred percent of the time.

(08:30):
You never missed a moose because.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
The moose will kill you if you fucking hit it
with your car too. Oh yeah, like that's deadly. It
is not like, yeah, no running over a squirrel. Not
that I'm condoning that, but like.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
No, although they can be pretty aggressive, Let's be honest,
what if I wanted that acorn? You didn't even ask me.
It's my front yard.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Oh my god, there's a squirrel rotting in our backyard
and we're not doing anything about it.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Oh, I have a lot of like animal stories for
my backyard. Yeah, it sounds like a palais gorgeous tropical jungle.
It's not, but a lot happens there. Should we do
our network highlights?

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, So we have a podcast network and this holiday
season we'd love for you to listen to some podcasts
on it.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
That's right. So while we have you here, just a
quick reminder our newest podcast, Brief Recess, a legal podcast
with Michael Foot and Melissa Malbranch, which, by the way,
such a delightful you want to talk about parasocial relationship.
I just want to hang out and talk to those
guys or listen to them talking all day longer. It's
if you haven't listened to it. It kind of has

(09:36):
a little bit of everything. They're addressing these horrifying things
that are happening in our world right now with light
in a lighthearted way, but also but also with call
to action, a call to action, but then Sleigh boots
down all the things you want. But just to remind
you they are on YouTube because it is a podcast,

(09:57):
but it's a video podcast as well, so every single
episode comes out on video. You can watch Michael and
Melissa as well as listen to them, So please go
over to their YouTube page YouTube dot com, slash at
Brief Recess and like, subscribe, interact, do all the things
that let people know that you like something but also
enjoy a video podcast. Yeah, it's the future. You're so

(10:19):
young and with it.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
And if you're craving more content over the holidays, now
is the time to join the fan called at fancult
dot supercast dot com. You'll get every episode of My
Favorite Murder ad free plus exclusive audio and video, so
much video content and more.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
And if that doesn't satisfy you, then follow My Favorite
Murder on Instagram and on TikTok. We're on TikTok too,
and make sure you don't miss any of our clips,
or our polls, or our special announcements and all the
other things so we have over there.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
We've been blowing up social media lately because Shannon, our
social media manager, has been just fucking working her butt
off and killing it.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Shannon McNally, that's right, Please please follow us 's a
legend and for our last minute holiday shoppers, don't worry.
We've got you.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
The Exactly Right store has easy gift options that don't
require express shipping. Had to exactly wrightstore dot com to
shop gift cards or sign up for the fan Cult
for someone you love at fancult dot supercast dot com.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
That's right, great gift. It's a really good gift. And
you can get subscriptions for three, six or twelve months,
depending on how much you like the person you're buying
it for, and like how long it'd be in my life.
I don't know, So let's just try three months. Just
do three months and see how you do, how I
decide you do. That's right. Oh, Also, it's time for
another December donation. That's part this is very fun. Every

(11:40):
December we like to spend the month giving to groups
doing life changing work here in the United States and
of course around the world.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
So today we're doting ten thousand dollars to World Central Kitchen,
led by chef jose and Dress. They provide meals to
communities and crisis getting food to people quickly after natural disasters, conflicts,
and humanitarian emergency.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Their mission is to use the power of food to heal, support,
and rebuild communities when they need it the most.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
In twenty twenty four, World Central Kitchen supported families impacted
by conflict and disasters in twenty countries, providing over one
hundred and nine million meals. So if you'd like to
join us in supporting their work, head to WCK dot org.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
And if donating isn't your thing right now, you can
also explore volunteer opportunities at WCK dot org slash volunteer.
So yay December donations. All right, well, now it is
a solo show. Time for you to do your Christmas thing.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
Okay, And this story is just so into the holiday spirit.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Okay, No, it's not.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Oh but it's good okay, And it's fun and I'm
excited to tell you about it. Okay, but you're gonna
know about it because this is a story that if
you were alive and at least semi conscious during the nineties,
you vividly remember this story. It was a huge media
sensation the way only nineties media could do tackless and

(13:06):
vulgar and in your fucking face constantly when they ban smoking. No,
now we know what was important to you.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Back to tell whole story about I just remember being
like it's never gonna work, right, no one's ever going
to do this smoking or not. And then Coco's you
have to goes at two am.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
We used to smoke in Denny's. That's what that's the
new question of how old are you? No, have you
ever had a cigarette in Denny's? Ye?

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yes, yeah, yeah, no, Okay.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
So it's January sixth, nineteen ninety four, and it will
be the country's most infamous January sixth for the next
seventeen years.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Then there will be one that you can't be that's right.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
We're at the Cobo Arena in Detroit, Michigan, a day
before the US Figure Skating Championships, and we all know what's.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
About to happen. Yes we do.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
This is the story of Nancy Kerrigan and Tanya Harding.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
I mean god, this is crazy. It was such a
wild like story.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
It was huge, and it was on the cover of
like every magazine. People wouldn't shut up about it. Yeah,
it was one of the biggest fucking stories in the nineties.
So so good. You don't know about it yet, you should.
The main sources for the story are an essay in
The Believer by Sarah Marshall, and she actually hosts the
podcast You're Wrong About.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Which is super good. Oh yeah, that's a good podcast.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
And the ESPN thirty for thirty documentary called The Price
of Gold.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Remember when I called it thirty by thirty and everyone
got mad? No one got mad. I just love how
often I've done that. We're just like, you know, on
thirty by thirty of people like it's thirty for thirty,
just like we're like we did a whole thank you
of when we're in People magazine and like we shared
a page with some band and I said the name wrong.

(14:54):
Oh yeah, like it's actually band at Foot. Okay, my
favorite murder. We're going to get it wrong. Yeah, essentially
that's right, all right, so we all know this part.
I think there's some people that weren't born for like
ten years when this also just like lately, with the
way things are going, remind us of the good times. Yeah,

(15:15):
I was thinking about it.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
It's like there's a possibility a lot of listeners who
hadn't been born yet. But is it possible that some
listeners parents hadn't been born yet.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, let's not talk about that. Okay, babies haven't babies
all right, babies.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
So Nancy Kerrigan is practicing her routine for the US Championships. Nancy,
along with several other American skaters, most notably Tanya Harding,
is vying for a spot on.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
The Olympic team.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
She'll need to place first at this championship or maybe
second in order to go.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
So it's a big deal.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Now, Nancy's America's sweetheart in the only way Olympic hopefuls
can be. Like, it's just such a thing that we
put on them of like, we need you to be
perfect and represent our country exactly how we want you to.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, it seems like a lot of pressure. There's a
lot of pressure. And also, especially in ice skating, I
think there's not a lot of people that can do
it unless they have money, that's right.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, yes, So Nancy is pretty and elegant, and she's
talented but humble and is the quintessential ice princess that
the public and ice skating judges root for. So she
is that quintessential beautiful ice skater. A camera crews in
the rink filming her practice. When she finishes, Nancy walks
off the ice and disappears through a black curtain to

(16:30):
walk through a hallway to the locker rooms. Her coaches,
Evy and Mary Scott Vold, who are married, are nearby
finishing up a conversation with some friends, and then they're
going to follow Nancy out to the locker rooms. But
before they can do that, they hear a blood curling
shriek coming from the hallway. They run through the curtain
to see Nancy crumpled in a heap on the ground.

(16:51):
I mean, I'll never forget this video. I'll never forget
the sound of her voice. Yep, she's gripping her knee
and sobbing, and the camera crew runs out. They start rolling,
and the video of Nancy on the floor in her
pretty white costume bawling will become infamous, particularly that she's
yelling over and over again, desperately asking why, why why.

(17:15):
I'll never forget it.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, it was just why why would anything bad happen
to me? How you take it? Oh my god, Well,
here's the thing. As you were saying that, and I've
never thought about this before, I'm like, well, of course,
because it's the Olympics and there's camera crews everywhere. But
it is so like weirdly perfect, the idea that they
did this there, yeah, where everything even back then would

(17:40):
be recorded, and yeah, like found out is it's such
a crazy plan.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
It's really stupid. It's a stupid plan and it falls
apart quickly. But it's funny that, like, so we all
have preconceived notion of this story, Like Nancy is the victim,
but we don't like her for orderas and Tanya, you know,
you're on her side for some reason, even though she's
very unlikable in a lot of ways and it's really
hard to root for her, especially like in her own interviews. Yes,

(18:07):
but you know it's been shaped by the media, our view.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
And also we've all been raised to hate women so
much that we can figure out a way to hate
any woman. You don't have to seat. You can be
the victim, you could be the perpetrator, you could be whatever.
And that's how we do it to woman. Whereas like
there'll be some dude standing there and you're just like,
I don't know, he's fine, You're like, I hate her.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
I don't like the way she was crying for being
hit in the fucking kneed.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
I didn't like the way she was wailing in pain. Yeah,
that bothers me.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
It's stuck up the way she was wailing pain. So yeah,
so it's fucked up and she's just purely an innocent victim.
She won't give a lot of interviews about this. She
just tries to move on with her life.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
So we kind of can you how many times they've
asked her of it? Just like for fifty years? Yeah,
it wasn't fifty years now it feels like it though.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Thirty. So it comes out that a large unknown man
and a leather jacket has just snuck up out of
nowhere and whacked her one time in the leg with
a long metal object. And Evy scottfold the husband and
the husband and wife coach team that coaches Nancy looks
up to see this man crashing through a locked glass
door of the arena.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Oh, like it's locked. So have you seen the movie?
E Tanya? I have, but I don't remember this part.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
He I don't know if this actually happens, but in
the movie he smashes his forehead through the glass because
the door is like bolted shut the lock shut.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
But we I don't know if that happened.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
But somehow he smashes the window and like bolts out
the so first of all, like, not sid, dude.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
You plan this so I'm an exit. You plan an
exit that's not chained and locked, right. And also it's
the Olympics, so you're not going to have the easiest
ins and outs around the practice area, right.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
So everyone looks for him and no one can find him,
and they try to chase him, but they lose him.
But still Evy will wind up saying to his wife
Mary that night and surprises her that he suspects Nancy's
main competitor, Tanya Harding, has something to do with the attack.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Oh, immediately, imedially.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Tanya and Nancy are both twenty four years old, and
they both come from working class backgrounds on opposite sides
of the country. So Nancy is born in nineteen sixty
nine and grows up in Stoneham, Massachusetts.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Her dad, Daniel.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Is a welder and her mom, Brenda, is a stay
at home mom, and Brenda is legally blind, having lost
most of her vision from a virus she got when
Nancy was a baby.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
Oh my god. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
So Nancy has two brothers who play hockey, and while
the family's not at all wealthy, once Nancy shows an
aptitude for figure skating around the time she's eight years old.
They put everything in to it, and as you said,
professional ice skating is not fucking cheap. It's almost like
horseback riding to me, where it's just like there's so
many things.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
You have to buy.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
You have to buy ice time, coach, like, spend money
to be on the ice, coaching costumes, all of that shit.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Those skates we bought me and Laura bought Nora because
Nora got into ice skating. It was really cute. She
was pretty good at it. But we bought her for
Christmas of the most beautiful pair of ice skates, and
she grew out of them within like nine months, like
she needed another pair where I was like, how much
were they they? I can't remember, I mean, but it
was like that kind of thing where you're just like, oh, yeah,

(21:19):
they're kids, right, and you have to do that over
and over their whole career. My kid would sit at home.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, Nancy's dad at times works three jobs to afford
Nancy's coaching costumes and ice time.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Why didn't they tell the story when it happened? Now?
I feel so guilty. No, I thought she was rich.
She was not rich. I just assumed she just she
know what she was.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Rich in, which I think a lot of people don't
give enough credit for is having a stable family. And
that's a privilege in itself. And you know she had that,
and that's great and good for her. And it doesn't
even seem like there was an actual rivalry between Tanya
and Nancy. It was just that Nancy was her biggest competition.
So Nancy had nothing to fucking do with.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
This, really, right, that's a very meaningful thing about the
family thing. That's very true because it was almost like
we're all going to pitch in and make this happen.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Right, Like they all traveled together to her competitions, even
her brothers. She stayed in the same hotel room with
her parents. You know, it's just like that. But I
don't want to stay in a hotel room with my parents.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
No, I never have. That's not fun at all.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
And at one point her dad takes a job driving
the zamboni at the rink in exchange for Nancy's ice time.
So they're dedicated. They don't have tremendous means, but it's
clearly a very loving and very stable household. I feel
so good, good, that's what I'm trying to do on
the other side of the country in Portland, Oregon, which
it's like rural Portland, Oregon.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
This is not like Portland now Hester, It's not keep
Portland weird.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
No, And it's like you own a gun and you
go hunting Portland, you know. And so there, Tanya Harding
is born into tougher circumstances. Tanya's dad, Albert, works odd
jobs and suffers from various health problems which stop him
from being able to work at times. Her mother, Lavanna
played by Alison Janny, epically I mean unbelievable, so incredibly

(23:07):
good in Nitania that it's uncomfortable. Yeah, she works as
a waitress and the family's home and financial situation is chaotic.
And can I just say, like, some thirty years later,
we're just now starting to learn about how chaos and
poverty in childhood can lead to subsequent cognitive and social
development issues, impair the development of executive function in children,

(23:29):
It changes the child's brain structure even which can lead
to anxiety and difficulties with social skills, mental health issues,
et cetera.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Look it up and go to therapy.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
Everyone, And it's not an excuse it's just kind of
just say where her head was.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, you know, right.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
So when Tanya's three years old, a new mall opens
up nearby, and I want to say the name of
it because I love it. It's the Clackamas Town Center. I
don't know why I fucking love that word. I've been there, Clacamass.
They have an ie skinning rink right and write in it.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
That's what I was. I'm gonna say, sorry, I keep
jumping you. I'm not trying to know.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
The story, but probably better than I do. It has
a skating rink right in the very center of it,
and somehow Levana finds the money to get Tanya skating lessons,
and it's clear from the very beginning that she is
a supremely talented skater and athlete. From three years old.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Well, I mean that's the thing, because Nora was good
at it too. She was at a friend's birthday party
at the Charles Schultz Snoopy ice rink and someone sans hey,
and they're just like, she's she's very good at this
and likes it a lot. So my sister's like, I
mean it was, it's really fun. But the dedication you
have to sit in the most freezing room and just

(24:38):
watch your kids spin in circles. I didn't even think
about it for the parents. So it's just like, especially
California parents, just like, I don't know, isn't it hot outside?
You're not in a.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Lawn chair with a beer. It's like the worst possible
fuck that. Like Nancy's parents, Leavanna does as much as
she can to fund Tanya's skating, but it's harder for her,
and she also puts a lot of pressure on Tanya.
As we see in the movie, most people seem to
come to the conclusion that ice skating will be Tanya's
only shot at a more comfortable life than the one

(25:08):
she was born into. It's like this or nothing, and
it seems like they share that with her, this growing child, that's.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
This is it. You better get this done for us, right,
And look how fucking hard your mom is working to
make it happen.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
Just a lot of fucking pressure when when have to win?
What am I spending my money on?

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Right? We're all sacrificing for you. Exactly. Get out there now,
have fun with it. You're not smiling enough do your
dance to want to be starting something. I mean Jesus Christ,
but we do to children in this country is so crazy?
Not me, not me. Well, we did it to Nora
a little bit. She got second place one time. I

(25:49):
know it was really exciting. No, I mean the pressure apart,
I don't think we're thankfully that's the one benefit usually
of not being, not being the pupil that have all
those things, right, is you get to sidestep a lot
of that.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
I think my parents were like, just get passing grades,
and if you don't.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
That's okay too. Yeah, just go, just go. And if
you don't, just graduate high school then they did, and
you did. You gave them everything they asked for and more.
That's right, No pressure, okay.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
So even in real time, it's understood by Tanya's coaches
and skating companions that her circumstances are extremely difficult and
very different from the typical figure skater. When she's eleven,
her friend witnesses Lavanna hitting Tanya repeatedly in the rink's
bathroom with a hair.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Brush, just being abusive. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
The friend is shocked and horrified by this and tells
the coach that she wants to report Tanya's mom to
see PS. It's bad ass little eleven year old yep,
and the coach says that it would end Tanya's skating
career forever if they reported her, which is so sad
because it's like, maybe it would have made you have

(26:54):
a better life, even though skating isn't involved in it anymore,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (26:58):
It's yes, not that that also, how much of this
skating was her choice at that point.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
A few years later, this friend actually winds up making
like a little documentary of that Tanya. By then, Tanya's fifteen,
and she very frankly talks about her difficult home life.
Tanya's mother participates in the documentary, and she's wearing a
fur coat with a green parrot perched on her shoulder,
just like in the movie. Later, Tanya will also say
that she was sexually abused as a teenager by several

(27:25):
people in her life, and it does seem like there
could have been a lack of protection in the environment
she grew up and it doesn't. It's so hard because
you can't believe everything this woman says, but there are
definitely parts of it that are true and you have
to believe. Yeah, so you know, she's an unreliable narrator, yes,

(27:46):
of course, but she's not lying about everything.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
No. And also if you have the kind of mom
that'll beat you with a brush in a bathroom in
front of people, then there isn't a lot of protection
going on. It's easy to say this is definitely not happening.
Could it be worse at home? Of course? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
So the part of ice skating that most appeals to
Tanya is the athleticism. And we should talk about what
she looked like for people who don't know, Like, she
was just so quintessentially nineties.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
She looked like she burned her eyeliner with a match
to get it moven on her eye. She had a
very strong she's like a redhead, but she had a
very strong eye.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
She'd also bleach her hair like nineties blonde. Yeah, and
like the nineties was kind of still the eighties when
it came to style.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
So think of that like big poofy, bang pofy, frizzy,
big hair, yeah, crimped and you know, yeah, but then
she had she looked like an Irish girl to me. Yeah,
she definitely looked like the photo that you posted of
yourself in high school, like you would have been fronts
with her. Yes, absolutely, she would have been one of Karen's,
like smoking in the girl's bathroom friends. My mom would
be like, I don't know if you should go to Tanya's. Exactly, yeah, exactly.

(28:52):
She definitely looks like she smelled like those Menthol cigarettes
that you were talking about. Totally right, like a Kelly Bundy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
So she loves the athleticism of it. She can do
the grace and the artistry blah blah blah, but that's
not what comes naturally to her. What comes naturally what
she wants to do is land the most difficult tricks possible.
She kind of is a bad ass.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
She's not kind of.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
She's a bad ass in this way of like, I
if I'm gonna do this, I want to be the
fucking best at it, and I want to do it,
you know, in a way that no one else can.
And I know everyone out there doesn't think I can
do it, so I'm going to fucking show them and
then some so no one can deny it.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
Such good revenge.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Oh, it's the best, Like, that's the best motivation is
when someone's like, oh, you don't think I can do that?

Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, Oh, let me go ahead and I'm already brave
enough to be able to ice skate, which I like,
I was watching hockey the other day and I'm just like,
how are they doing this?

Speaker 2 (29:42):
I have I skated maybe once or twice in my life,
and I.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
It's truly witchcraft. And then she's like, I'm not scared,
not only not to ice skate, but like of anything.
So here, I'll just do the thing that makes people cheer.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Right, And so the trick she wants to land to
prove herself to everyone takes a huge amount of strength
and power. And so as Tanya progresses on the ice
skating circuit, this athleticism and power becomes her calling card.
So remember back then, they used to always make fun
of how big her thighs were. Like that was a
big fucking joke, late night joke back then. Is how

(30:20):
because ice skaters are so slim and long and lank,
but they also have to be so fucking strong to
lift their bodies off of the fucking ice and twirler
like that takes so much strength. Yeah, but also don't
look like it. It's just this like horrible thing that
we did we do to women.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Of here's the rules. Now, you also have to go
backwards and in high heels type of stuff exactly.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
And so while she's known for these like athletic moves
and she's like willing to try things that other ice
skaters won't, Nancy becomes known for her grace and her
spins and her elegant lines. So they're very different, but
they are competitors directly. And it also seems like the
judges are hard on Tanya because she doesn't quite fit
that elegant mold of.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
What a figure skater's supposed to be.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
There's a lot of it's so fucked up, Like the
amount of the stuff I've been doing researching this makes
me like angry. There's a lot of wiggle room and
subjectivity in scoring ice skating, and it's fair to say
that some of that subjectivity comes into play when the
judges look at Tanya. For instance, she's criticized by a
judge for her costume that she made herself because she

(31:27):
can't afford the five thousand dollars one time, you know,
competition outfit. It's that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
But she also does seem like a kind of rebel
where she'll pick music. She's like she I skated's a
wild thing and just like rock and roll, she'll do
and like they.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Don't fucking like that. Yeah, And so the scores are
not technical completely, they're also just completely subjective.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
And I think there was a time where we all
believed it was objective and so fair and all about
scoring or whatever. And then it's like and then if
you tracked in any way the Williams sisters coming into
tennis and the way there was always a problem and
it was always a thing, and just like, yeah, there's
a lot of people in place there that are making,
that are in charge of decision making and in charge

(32:10):
of like the culture totally they agreed upon culture.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Like the deck is stacked against you. Yeah, I mean
it's fucked up. And so while Tanya has to scrap up.
So while Tanya has.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
To scrap, scray up straight up.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
And so while Tanya has to scrap for everything she gets,
people just seem to want to give Nancy things. Theira
Wang starts designing her costumes because she's such a fan,
she gets lucrative endorsement deals. I totally remember the Campbell's
soup commercial to you.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Oh, when she was like she's actually on the ice. No,
She's like sipping, closing her eyes and sipping.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Some chicken noodle soup off the ice because she's cold,
you know, it's it's cold on the ice, and she
just closes her eyes.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
I mean, she really did look like any girl that
would be in seventeen magazine totally, So it was like
she had it all kind of there anyway. Yeah, and
I just I just remember her high pony, Yes, the
curly hair of the high pony. She was really pretty.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
And I think that they also liked that she wasn't
It's such a contradiction. They liked that she wasn't this wealthy,
you know, wasp who was like a princess. They liked
that she was from lower but not Tanya's. You know
what I mean, you can do that, but you can't
do it this way.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
You can be from the lower classes, but you have
to be pretty while you do it, and humble. You can't.
You have to be thin, thin, and you have to
be humble about it and not like I think that
you are owed anything.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
It's yeah, it's just such a contradiction. She gets some
endorsements free bok. So when people tell this story, there's
always this focus on Nancy being the beautiful ice princess
and Tanya being the more ugly duckling with bad costumes
and bad hair. It does seem like they're compared a lot.
They're kind of each other's biggest competitors, but it doesn't
seem like they have any animosity towards each other. And

(33:56):
Nancy's doing nothing to antagonize Tanya. There's like that story
is over blown that they have like a feud, because
it's not even so. So, when Tanya's fifteen years old,
she meets a seventeen year old mustachio dude name Jeff Galully.
He's played by Sebastian.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Stan yes, a classic classic, and they fall in love.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
It's her first ever boyfriend because she's all she does
is skate, yes.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
You know, and get yelled at by her mother, right, and.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
She had dropped out of high school so she could skate,
like there's just nothing else in her life. So she
meets this older guy and he has a car and
he's a job and she's like smitten completely by him immediately.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
Also, when you're fifteen, sorry to interrupt, but when you're fifteen,
doesn't it feel like that's when you fall in love?
The hardest of your whole life. My god, like you
kind of truly lose your mind, the hormones, the like
everything that is. Oh god, no, it's it's bad. It's
so bad.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
It's like so crushing because you think it's the most
important thing, and it is the most important thing in
the world at that moment.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
But it's the most important thing that you're doing with
Jeff Galulli, so and no one can convince you otherwise, right, Yeah,
my god. Yeah, it's so hard to be a teenager.
It is. It's the world. It's so bad. You could
not pay me to be a fucking teenager. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Now the two move in together when Tanya's just seventeen
years old, and the way she tells the story, she
was pretty much just desperate to get out of her
mom's house and this kind of seemed like the only way.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
They get married in nineteen ninety when Tanya's twenty years old,
and for a while, Jeff makes enough money to support
them while Tanya keeps skating and they're hoping she'll get
those endorsement deals. Jeff is abusive, though allegedly, which Tanya
will later discuss. The relationship will always be rocky and
on and off, and like basically everything in Tanya's life
pretty unstable. The way Tanya describes it, Jeff was quote

(35:42):
always saying the right things to get me back, and
I'd be stupid enough to go back and get beat
up again. And they show this a eye Tanya, and
it's just it's just Yeah, it's so dark.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
But also she's not stupid. This is her life, Like,
this is the way. If that's been the pattern in
your life, yeah, you continue that pattern.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, she's not a choice. She would say, my mom
loved me and she hit me. Yeah, he said he
loved me and he hit me. Like that's what you learned. Yeah,
it's really sad and there's not really any like she
doesn't see any other options in her life.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
It's really fucking sad. Okay.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
So yeah, it does seem like she kind of internalizes
this abuse and is kind of a victim blaming herself
for it.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yea.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
So it's not an excuse for her behavior everything that
happens to her, but it is context, which I think
is important. And so while all this is going on,
Nancy's living the way she always has, closely supported by
her family, stayed in the same hotel room as her
parents at competitions. She lives with them, and she often
describes her mother as her best friend, which like, what
a fucking privilege to have that in your life?

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Do you want to know one of my earliest jokes, Yeah,
it was based on something some famous person I had said,
and really, my mother's my best friend. And I said, mom,
you're my best friend. And my mom went, well, you're
not my best friend, which literally she did. I couldn't
see that, just like, god damn.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
It's like she's meant it in like a tough love way,
like I'm your mother, not your friend.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
She meant it like no one's best friend should be
their mother. That's weird. Don't act like that. You don't
get another best friend totally.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
So, during the year after her marriage to Jeff, Tanya's
doing her best skating of her life. It's nineteen ninety
one and Tanya becomes the first American woman to land
a triple axel in competition at the United States Championship,
which is fucking huge. The triple axel has been this
white whale for female skaters figure skaters because it involves

(37:41):
launching yourself while facing forward, rotating three and a half
times and then landing facing backwards, and it takes a
huge amount of strength to get the necessary height to
stay up there that long. I mean, it is like
not for the faint of heart. People don't even try
it because it will be you will be hurt from
doing it.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
You eat ice, as they say, exactly, just kidding on it.
Don't say that sounds right.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
Up until now, a Japanese skater name Midori Eto has
been the only woman in the world to execute it
until Tanya.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
As you said that, I knew, I've heard of Madori Eto,
and I'm like, how much ice skating did I? Yeah,
I guess it was just the Olympics. They were big. Yeah,
it was really big, and it was like in People
magazine and stuff.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Exactly like we were obsessed with the I guess our
children still obsessed with the Olympics.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
I don't know. I don't either, but we fucking were.
Let's call the child hot line and see are there
any children guys, probably like roadblocks.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
This is also where her athleticism and her thighs and
her muscle came into play, Like you can't be a
waif and pull off something that no one else can
do in this sport. Yeah, you know what I mean,
but they don't. They won't, Like the people don't think
that it's an athletic sport. They forget that ice skating
is athletic, and they want a pretty wayfee.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
Everything's supposed to be a goddamn beauty contest, right when
women are participating that all of that comes in and
you have to suddenly talk about that all the time.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
Right, Yeah, it's just the whole thing. It's because of
her strength, So fuck you to everyone back then stand
by that also nineteen ninety four.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
It's just so telling. It's like she was clearly groundbreaking.
She had you have to look different to do something different,
like obviously you need the muscles to get up there.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yeah, and it's like she could try to beat Nancy
at her own game, but that wasn't her style. And
the reason she was one of the best in the
world is because she had her own style and she was,
you know, doing new, exciting things.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
It's kind of almost like.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
They shouldn't have been in competition with each other because
they were both doing something completely different. Yeah, but they
were so Tanya's triple axel wins her the United States
championship and sends her to the nineteen ninety two Olympics
in Albertville, France. I love it there and Nancy also
competes there. But between nineteen ninety one and nineteen eighty two,
Tana seems to lose the ability.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
To land that triple axel.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
She falters in some competitions, and it seems like her
life is just so chaotic. I can't imagine she's getting
a lot of sleep, you know, And that's that takes
practice all day if you want, like for the Olympics,
you don't happen. The life outside of that I can't imagine.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Right, And also, I mean, I bet you the way
people do it now, where it's like you're eating certain things,
training certain times, Oh you're doing She's smoking cigarettes, you know,
She's like she finds a camaro somewhere to lean on
and just smokes that safe drinking beer, smoking cigarettes, hang
out with your fucking husband, who, like you have this
tumultuous relationship with It's just not conducive to winning an

(40:38):
Olympic fucking medal. Probably not right.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
I mean, I'm just podcasting and I'm fucking exhausted from
like sleeping eight hours some muscles.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
I wrote it all weekend and my muscles are killing
the same. It hurts. It is good at and I
have big thighs, and still I can't nail the triple axe.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Which Your lines are amazing, your grace and lines and
cheekbones are giving.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
There you go. This is why I did tap dance,
not ballet.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
I wanted to clop all over the place to make
as much fucking noise as possible.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
That's right, That's why I pay.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
My mom had to make me stop tap dancing down
the grocery store aisles.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Stop tap dancing. That's what you did too, right, or
your home would grab you and say yeah. She would
just grab me by the neck and be like, what
do we need to don't wonder off, which meant stop
having temper tantrums everywhere you go. I would just you'd
always know where I was because I was clopping down
the Okay, we're creating so much work for the editors

(41:43):
in this episode.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
We're showing them what it's like to be Tanya Harding
and how chaotic life can be.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
It's really hard, and we understand it. Yeah, but you
know what, leave it all in. We stand by our
words at it in Yeah, okay, everyone go on vacation, Okay,
stop it.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
At the Olympics, Tanya tries and fails to land the jump,
which gotta suck, and it's just you can see. That's
the other thing too about her skating. You can see
it in her face when she wins and loses in
a way I don't think you're supposed to like show
that's right, but in a really like cool, powerful, prideful way. Yes,
that's awesome, Like she's cheering along with everyone.

Speaker 1 (42:19):
She's leaving it all on the field exactly. Is that
the one when she couldn't land it where she had
the black velvet outfit on. I think so. I feel
like I watched one of these real times. Yeah, and
it was hard to watch, Okay.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Madori Eto lands hers and in the end, Christi Yamaguchi
still takes home the gold for America, Northern California girl,
Madori Eto takes silver for Japan, and Nancy gets the
bronze and Tanya's in fourth place. This would potentially be
where Tanya and Nancy's Olympic stories are over. They're twenty
two years old, and the next time the Olympics roll

(42:54):
around they'd basically maybe twenty six, they'd basically aged out
for Olympics. You'r skaters, so that was it, like fourth place,
You're done. But and this is so fateful fortuitous, they
get a once at a lifetime break because prior to
nineteen ninety four, the Summer and Winter Olympics happened in

(43:15):
the same year. After the nineteen ninety two Games, the
decision is made to stagger them and it's decided that
there will be another Winter Olympics in nineteen ninety four
and then the Summer Olympics in ninety six, so it
can be every four years. So they just like double
up on winter and they get to go back to
the fucking Olympics.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
That is so weird. Yeah, and I feel like I
didn't know that as a detail of this story.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
I didn't know that either. But I'm not as into
ice skating as you are. I think Jewish people don't
really we don't ice skate.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
Why would we. I don't think I'm into it as
much as like I'm more of a It was such
a pulp culture situation. We had Dorothy Hammel, Peggy Flemett
like their names, yes, you know always so this gives
all the winter athletes the rare opportunity to compete in
another set of Olympic Games just two years later. Lucky.
So you thought you were done.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
You'd practice for four years to get or you'd practice
so hard to get there, and now it's like, Okay,
guess what you're doing for the next.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Two years starting all over.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Right, So cut to two years later, let's just fucking yeah,
let's just let's just go. Nineteen ninety four, Tanya and
Nancy are back again, vying for spots on the next
Olympic team, so they still have to compete again to
be even beyond the team. In order to qualify for
the Olympics, the skaters will need to first compete at
the US Championships.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Do you want to know what it's called?

Speaker 2 (44:38):
Yes, especially legs US. Did you're skating Championships? Yes, l
apostolate legs for those of you who are very young,
that's the pantyhose brand.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
Pantyhose that used to come and plastic eggs. That's right,
like Easter eggs, but pantyhose. It was spelled legs, but
like legs legs apostrophe eggs, and it had its own
display where all of the eggs sat on individual little holders.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Yeah, before there was like you know, anime toys in
little bubble, there was fucking pantyhouse, and we made our
moms give us the fucking container when they were done
with them.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
Every time legs, like all our barbie shoes are in there.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
It's such a brilliant way to be like, do you
want these pantyhouse at all? Look like this? Or do
you want some in eggs? You want their legs? Why
don't we put more stuff in eggs? Gotta start stopped
kinder eggs.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Another one, that's exactly good job. Okay, So in this
during this time two years, Nancy has gotten additional endorsements
and Tanya has pretty much gotten nothing. In nineteen ninety three,
she divorces Jeff.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
But the way.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
Tanya tells it, and this is fucked up and it
seems true, US figure skating authorities urge her to get
back together with him so that she can portray this
image of stability and traditionalism.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
They're like, you can't be a divorced ice skater.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
Go back to your abusive husband, otherwise you're not going
to win the thing that you've been devoted your entire
fucking life too.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
That makes me think, do you think they flipped out
when she married him in the first place because she
was only twenty.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, I'm sure you've seen the videos. He just like
came with her all the shows.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
He kind of had looked a little sketch with the
mustache and yeah, And it's certainly within the realm of
possibility that they said that for such an image focused sport,
because only in two thousand and four were women allowed
to compete in pants.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Like the leggings. They couldn't wear leggings, they had to
wear fucking legs, legs. A lot of them still won't
wear them for fear of getting dinged by the judges
because costume is part of your score, and so they
just don't fucking like the color or the cut. It's
a personal preference, not a fucking.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
It's very dance moms coated, like just always going to
be haunted by these people that are behind a table,
you know, waiting to put up a number, and it's
like those are the they in your mind where it's
like they say you shouldn't do it that way. It's
dance moms, and it's pageants out pageants, which is gross.
So gross. Yeah, okay, we're just insulting the entire ice

(47:07):
skate don't like anything. Yeah also ice, fuck ice. I
meant it for the drink. But can we leave fuck ice?
Well yeah for sure, right like crushed or do you
like cubes? Okay, stop it. That brings us back to
your favorite day. January sixth, nineteen ninety four. In the
wake of the attack, Nancy had suffered so they were

(47:29):
aiming for her knee, but they missed and she suffered
a severe bone bruise and the lower right thigh was
what ended up getting hit. But they did purposely go
for her standing leg, so when she did twirls, she
did it on the leg that they hit, because she
could have kept going maybe if she didn't have to

(47:50):
like favor that leg, right, But so they purposely used
her her weight bearing leg.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Thank you, And it was hit with a telescopic baton.
Oh so like a police baton.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
But Jesus, like wappen? I mean that's so traumatizing. Why why?
And then her dad picks her up and carries her
into the locker room. He had to take a fourth job. Jesus,
crisis is so much worse than I even understood it
to be. I know.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
But her knee is not broken, which is a miracle.
So she can't skate in the US Championships, which will
determine who's going to go to the Olympics. So without
Nancy competing, Tanya places first, and a baby Michelle Kwan
thirteen at the time, and I mean she looks like
a little baby, she places second. So the two teams,

(48:40):
I know, Jesus, so the two of them are technically
who were supposed to go represent the US at the Olympics.
The committee decides to bump Michelle Kwan. They say to her, look,
you're thirteen, you have other chances, Nancy doesn't.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
How do you feel about us?

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Like you guys out Nancy had couldn't compete, And Michelle
fucking Kwan said okay, Like how graceful is that of her?

Speaker 1 (49:08):
And like fucking cool? Holy shit, Yeah, as a thirteen
year old, you're like, no, fucking you, John, you get
the judges over here. Oh this fuck you? Fuck you
I am it's seventh grade. You're cool? Fuck you? Oh
my god, what a generous thing she did.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Totally, I mean, even if she didn't want to it's
like amazing, yeah, and like that had just happened Nancy,
And we cannot tell you how big of a story
this was at the time. This was the biggest story
in the US and maybe in the world for a while. Yes,
I'm angry about that big it was. So they decided
to send Nancy anyway, even though she didn't compete, And
so this competition has come to an end. Tanya and

(49:48):
Nancy are going to the Olympics. But the frenzy to
figure out who attacked Nancy heats up, and I mean,
I can't remember if we all knew it was we knew,
we knew who didn't know.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
I think that well, they just had to get the proof. Yeah,
but I feel like what's unfair and really would have
been unfair if she wasn't guilty. Tanya just had that
look of a girl that like, you don't want to
cross her, and then she finds you in the movie
theater parking lot, you know. So then it was clearly
all those adults were just acting like, we know what happened,
we can't prove it. We're going to continue as if

(50:21):
that's what's going on.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Totally so so shortly after the attack, the coin tv
ko I n in Portland you know them well. The
Portland station receives an anonymous letter claiming that Jeff, Tanya's husband, Tanya,
and a team of Tanya's bodyguards were responsible for Nancy's injury.
One of the producers at the station knows Tanya personally

(50:43):
and calls her up about it, and she says, you
can look at the letter, but you have to do
an interview with me, Like she fucking.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
Did she write that letter?

Speaker 2 (50:51):
No? Oh oh no, She's like, you can see it.
You can come to the station and see it, but
only if you do an interview with me. It's like, oh,
kind of like, got it all right, girl. So Tanya
go on air on that station to refute the letter,
and it's so fucking creepy. Jeff is sitting directly behind
the interviewer and in the interview you can see him
staring at her and you can she looks afraid, yeah,
and you can kind of see her like, you know,

(51:14):
look at him a couple times to get the right answer.
And she claims it is only after this interview that
she begins to get the inkling that Jeff was really
behind the plot. And so this is the big question
is what did Tanya know and when? And it's debated.
There's no total proof either way. I think we generally
assume she had something to do with it from the beginning.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
Allegedly, yes, I mean that's kind of the logical. Yeah,
but then the idea of that your abusive a husband
would do this and you didn't know he was going
to do it is so awful.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
You can see how that would happen too. Like, that's
what's so hard about the argument is like you could
see him doing it without wanting to burden you, and
like he's just going to do this thing that he
thinks she might want.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Or he's like he's the man and the provider and
he's like, yeah, I took care of it for you.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
Tanya got a death threat before the Nancy Kerrigan thing happened.
Oh and so that's what they were going to do initially,
is just give Nancy a death threat and hope that
maybe she doesn't compete. But then it became this thing,
so she might have had nothing to do with it, hmm,
I you know, allegedly allegedly. Okay, so the station hands
over the letter of the FBI and it's quickly traced

(52:24):
back to a friend of the father of one of
Jeff's friends, a man named Sean Eckhart. And so this
guy is played by the incredible Paul Walter Hauser.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Do you know who that is? Yeah? I think so.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
He was the one in Blackbird who played the serial killer.
He's such an incredible actor and he's so perfect a
night Tanya. So he had actually worked as Tanya's bodyguard
and had given interviews in the wake of the attack.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
He's just a complete idiot.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
He also privately tells lots of acquaintances that he was
involved in it. He's like, he's bragging about it.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yeah. He thinks he's like this, you know, like a superhero,
like a bad Yeah, and he's just not.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
Once the FBI gets to Sean, the whole plot is
revealed fairly quickly. The FBI agents who interviewed him said quote,
when Sean realized he was facing some fairly serious penalties,
he folded like a cheap accordion. Sean signs a statement
claiming that four men were involved in the plot and
that the idea seemed to come from Jeff, the husband.
Jeff asked Sean to hire a hit team of two

(53:20):
other men to carry out the attack, and those two
men are named Derek Smith and Shane stant And so
basically they travel to Detroit, where Nancy is competing to
be in the Olympics, and where they hit her. And
all of this travel is charged to credit cards under
their own names. I mean, when confronted with all the evidence,
both men confess to the attack and plead guilty fairly quickly.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
But over time, the men involved in the plot start
changing their stories, saying that Tanya was involved and that
she was in charge of the plot. So she kind
of turns on Jeff, her now ex husband, and when
he finds out, he turns on her too, and they
all do. The only real evidence they find against Tanya
is they find a scrap of paper with information in

(54:03):
her handwriting allegedly about the rink and phone numbers for
the rink where Nancy was practicing.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
Oh so it just looked really bad. Yeah, that isn't good. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
And so while all this is going on, Tanya's still
preparing for the Olympics.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
In the meantime, no.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Stress push on through, yeah, which are scheduled to begin
in what's it called Lily Hammer. Thank you Lily Hammer
Lily Hammer, Norway, and Tanya still practices at the So
Tanya's practicing at this rink in an open mall, and
now she's the biggest villain in the US. And so
as she's practicing and stressing out of the Olympics, she's

(54:40):
being watched by every news station in the fucking galaxy
and just like waiting for her to fall and fail
and something wrong to happen so they can report about it. Yeah,
it's just crazy. It's open to spectators, into the press.
It's a madhouse. Even Diane Sawyer shows up ringside and
just hangs out at the edge of the rink asking
her questions.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Lawyer went to the Clackamus mall. Yes, that's hilarious.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
She's like one of the most respected journalists of our
time and should get out there. So this media frenzy
follows her fucking everywhere over the course of six weeks
leading up to the Olympics. Under questioning, Tanya confesses to
learning about the plot after the fact. That's the only
thing she ever admits to, and not alerting authorities as
soon as she knew, And that's the only thing she's
guilty of. She says, she was afraid of what Jeff

(55:23):
would do if she came forward, which is reasonable given
Jeff's track record of abuse. But people did this day
doubt whether or not she knew about the plot in advance,
and whether she helped advance it. But while all this
investigation is going on, Tanya hasn't been charged with anything,
and the Olympics are approaching, and with Tanya being a
US champion, the Olympic Committee has no solid reason to

(55:45):
remove her from the team.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
Like they can't.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
They're hoping she resigns because at this point she admitted
she knew something about the plot.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
After the fact.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
Tanya then threatens to sue the Olympic Committee.

Speaker 1 (55:59):
Yeah, fucking to you.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
For ten million dollars, motherfucker, all you motherfuckers. I'm competing. Meanwhile,
Nancy's healing up and she'll be able to compete in
the six weeks between the attack and the games. She
has to spend four weeks in physical therapy and then
only has two weeks to practice her routine. Actually, in
January nineteen ninety four, this story was so big it

(56:21):
was on the covers of Sports Illustrated, news Week, and
Time Magazine.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
It's huge.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
The Winter Olympics in Lillehammer, Norway, begin in February of
nineteen ninety four, and at the Olympics, the whole US
team has to practice at the same time. They all
get the same ice time, which means Tanya and Nancy
will be on the ice together. It's like, are they
going to have a cat fight and scratch it out?
It's just so dumb. A massive media frenzy happens and

(56:48):
everyone wants to see what will happen in the end.
It's all anti climactic. They don't get into a fight,
they don't even talk to each other. Then Nancy has
a pretty good outlook on the whole thing, and she
kind of just gnor is any of the questions. She
just won't talk about it. She doesn't want that to
be the focus. She's pretty graceful about the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
You love her, I love her, don't I? Oh No,
I love Nancy. I'm teen Tanya all the way. Hey,
Tanya's a fucking badass, Like, but I'm scared. Yeah, but
I don't know. There's something about that thing of like
she's just the little engine that nobody thought could and
so she's like, I will I will beat you all

(57:29):
into submission and then it's like, oh, but you're not
pretty enough, and it's like it doesn't matter. I'm gonna
do it anyway.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
She was like, if I do it exactly the way
you want me to, I'm still going to fail. And
so I'm doing it my fucking way and failing on
my own terms, yep, and then still fucking winning and
still showing you how good I am.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
I mean, she's so impressive. Also being fourth in like
an Olympic sport, you might as I mean, no one
can get close to that. No, that's the it's there's
people really love to watch TV, myself included, and just
be like I can get that. That's easy. It's not
that bigger deal. It's like most people can't just go

(58:09):
once around. No, And part of ice skating is making
it look easy.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
They don't want you to have like strain on your
face or big thighs, big muscular thighs.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
They want you to make it look like you're just
flying because you're just a little lady. And Tony is like, well,
fuck youngs, like I'm going to do things other people
can't do, right, and where a lot of black eyelinerre
well I did. The thing is that she didn't know
she was an autumn and if we had just gotten
some brown eyeliner in there, they would have loved her
till death. Absolutely, she could have been a low redhead. Yeah,

(58:38):
I think I love them both.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
Okay, So once the competition gets underway, Nancy skates a
great short program while Tanya's performance is rocky.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
I mean, no stress or anything.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Yeah, exactly when it comes for the long program, when
Tanya's name is called, it takes her a long time
to get on the ice because her shoelace broke.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
Oh yeah, and she remembered that.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Yeah, she's very specific shoes because of the jumps, and
so they couldn't find the laces that were long enough
for her. She's freaking out. She gets on the ice
very last minute, so stress like can you imagine, I mean,
she says like it's not going to hold me, Like
she knows her shoes are not going to hold her
for her jumps, and she also has like a misaligned skate.

(59:19):
It's just a mess. And so she fails her first
jump and she begins crying and takes her This is
the one where she yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
I watched all of it yeah, I saw it. And
also it's that thing where when I was watching it
and I think, there's no way the judges weren't saying
this or like this, the commentators weren't kind of alluding
to it, but it's like, how do you with that
right behind you? Oh? Yeah, go? And so what the
second her lace was broken, it was like to me,
I could feel I felt like it was the pressure

(59:48):
was building building like crazy, and the like people staring
at her. And then it was like it wasn't the shoelace.
You just couldn't you want to out? There's no coming
back from that. And yeah, and then that.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Everyone just loved the photo of her face looking like
they ate it up, how devastated she looked. And it's
like you you know, everyone was like, you got what
you deserve, Like it's this whole storyline.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Everyone loves that kind of like teacher a lesson totally,
you know what I mean, God forbid? She yeah, lay
in the bed that you made type of thing totally.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
So that's kind of what happened. No one had any
sympathy for her. She restarts the program and with the
new lace, and the routine goes well, but there's no
triple axle, nothing, nothing great. And Nancy skates after Tanya
and again skates a great program and it's looking like
Nancy might be poised for the gold. That everyone is
rooting for her because she's America's princess and she got

(01:00:38):
back on the ice and it's.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
All that she's so brave. Yes, she's a Disney princess.
It's braver that Tanya got on the ice because aside
from physical yeah, I think psychologically, yeah, if we're going
to do a brave measurement, Tanya wins that one.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
She refused to apologize to anyone. Yeah, and you know,
mm hmm, she had she had hotspot, maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
A little too much. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
But then comes sixteen year old Oksana Bayoul from Ukraine,
and sensing that she's probably neck and neck with Nancy,
she adds in an unplanned triple toe loop whatever the
fuck that is at the end of her program, and
it ultimately lands her the gold and Nancy gets the silver.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Tanya comes in eighth place.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Oh, after all of that, so, I think they were
hoping that they'd be like neck and neck and you know,
and it's a really disappointing outcome, of course for the
American sports casting perspective and an unsatisfying end of the
biggest sports story of the year.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
But Oxana did skate really well.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
But a lot of people say that the skating community
was actually just sick of America's antics. So even though
Nancy should have gotten gold, and a lot of people
argue that they were just like done with America's oh shit,
and so gave her silver.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
So Nancy's double punished.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Nancy's double punished, Yeah, because it's something she had no
control over.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Yeah. Well, but also it just like and I also
wrap it up that is that is so like life
where it's just like, you can't hang out in the
public eye that long, right without they're gonna get fucking
sick of you know, they're going to come out too much.
They like you, They're gonna come at Joe, what are
we doing. It's ten fucking years of this. Who oh,
we've had that time and again we have, haven't we?

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
I mean, Jesus Christ, we're the Tanya Hardings and Nancy
Carrigan of podcasting.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Okay, I think for the double Tanya Hardings and podcasting. Fine.
So in March of nineteen eighty four, right after the Games,
and Tanya makes a plea deal, pleading guilty conspiracy to
hinder prosecution. She's stripped of her nineteen ninety four Olympic
eighth place title. She's like take it, you canna have it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
And she's banned from participating in figure skating in any
official capacity for the rest of her life.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
Jesus kind of it sucks.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
It's the devastating blow. That's like what her whole life
has been leading up to. But also it means she
won't be able to coach or make any money in
the skating circuit, you know, when Disney on ice or whatever.
She cannot even fucking yeah do bad below. So that's
her entire life has been dedicated to this thing and
she can't make a penny off of it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
Yeah, it's all she knows. She didn't even graduate high school.
There's some vengeful yeah, skating whatever. The skating authority is tough. Yeah,
like let her get on the B level circuit, you know,
like let her code. How does that hurt you? They
get to like make a point no attacking other people's
knees from my bear enough.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
In the twenty ten's, after renewed attention to the case,
and then also after the Tanya movie comes out, which
was so fucking good. I watched her for the weekend,
Like I didn't think I'd like it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
It's so good, it's so funny.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
She finds more work on reality TV and does better,
and in twenty eighteen she comes in third.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
On Dancing with the Stars? Did she really? Third? Is amazing?

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Amazing for someone who's, well, she's a dancer, I guess,
but not in that sense and probably not for a while.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Yeah, But also, Dancing with the Stars is hard.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Oh my god, Jesus, guess what you're going to be
on it?

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
Now? Did you do it? If they asked you never,
you wouldn't fuck no, Because they're just in your business
all the time. It's like a reality show of like
this is also your life, and so then it's like
you practicing, it's just behind the scenes. It's too much
of like any person's it's like, you know, that's real training, all.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
Right, I gotta call our agent and tell him you
said no. A. Nancy has remained deeply involved in the
skating community and has commentated for the Olympics. She lives
in Massachusetts, Variant, and she has a husband and kids.
She's very involved in the Skating Club of Boston, the
group that lost many young figure skaters in last year's
plane crash in Washington, d C.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
And there's a video of her giving a press conference
like weeping.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
It's so sad. So now do you feel fucking bad? Yeah? Okay,
even worse, here's something better.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
She's actually also appeared on Dancing with the Stars several
seasons before Tanya, and she came.

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
In sixth Oh, so I think we know who the
better athlete is after all these years. They really in
the form that it needs to be figured out Dancing
with the Stars, not at Olympics.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
I got us sitting on her butts critiquing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Armchair quarterbacking. That's as we love to do.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Throughout the nineties, American figure skating becomes a huge deal
with TV specials and national tours. This is when it
really like blows up into mainstream and figure skaters are
catapulted to a much higher status of fame and recognition
and fucking that those flucrative deals than they were previously.
And a lot of people think that Nancy, the whole

(01:05:42):
Nancy Versus Tanya spectacle is part of the reason for
this yeah, that makes sense. So it launches a generation
of figure skating fans who to this day continue to
debate what Tanya knew and when she knew it. And
that is the story of the nineteen ninety four assault
of Nancy Kerrigan.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
Incredible Christmas tale, so good for the holiday.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
It's nothing like is that a Christmas movie? Is just
a Christmas story?

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
Yes, yes, it is ice, it's ice, it's everywhere, and
but also it's like hopes and dreams and then dreams
deferred and what that does to you Christmas miracle. It's
almost like they did it, the Olympic Committee did that
on purpose of like nobody likes the way that ended
up with Kerrigan and Harding, so let's get him back

(01:06:28):
out here. Yeah, yeah, because that's wild. Yeah, amazing story.
Thank you, What a great thing for everyone's vacation. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
I didn't even think of doing it because it's just
like such a story from our youth, Like I've just
been like, yeah, that's not your crime, or like that's
just what happened, and it's like, oh, this is fucking.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
That's when someone's they pulled crime into their perfect little
world of athleticism, and you know, coaching and like that's
not allowed there. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
When Ali and Molly pitched it to me, I was like,
oh I could do that, so good.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
Thank you guys. Yeah that was great. I was really good.
Thank you. Good job to you too. Thank you very much.
Check tator and commentator. You know, I was there for
a lot of it. Don't remember it accurately, but love chatting. Sure,
it's my favorite, especially Christmas. Especially Sorry, I keep saying
Christmas to you, especially at the holiday times. Thank you.
Your holiday is also important to to me. Well, listeners,

(01:07:27):
have a lovely holiday. Whatever you're celebrating or even not celebrating,
that's right. Treat yourself to something nice. You deserve it.
Treat yourself to a telescoping weapon of your choice this
holiday season. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis,
Do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly

(01:07:55):
right production.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer
is Tessa Hughes.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Our editor is Aristotle aasce Vedo. This episode was mixed
by Leona Squillacci. Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.
Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot
com and follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
Or you can watch us on YouTube. Search for My
Favorite Murder, then like and subscribe. Goodbye,

All Episodes

511 - They'll All Pay

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}511 - They'll All Pay