69 - Never A Mannequin

Beef down, everyone! It's a brand new My Favorite Murder. This week, Karen and Georgia discuss the Riverside serial killer and the tragic mystery surrounding Keith Warren's death.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
On a podcast. Hey, let's podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hello, welcome to my favorite murder.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
That's Karen, that's Georgia. Hi, I'm in my element right now.
I'm double fisting petting cats and that's my dream.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
That's how Georgia parties. Yeah, we just got.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
Back from our the last weekend of our first tour.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thank you, Washington, DC, Thank you Baltimore, thank you, Philly
to Ford slash Glenside, Pennsylvania. We had the best weekend.
We met so many great people, so many incredible people.
They sent us home with so many lovely presents.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
My suitcase was crammed.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
And we just gave Stephen many and many the presents
that you gave us to give.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, after we picked what we wanted out of his grip.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yes, there's lots of stuff that we didn't tell them
about that we're just keeping, well, little mustache things we
get to have, but we did want to mention it
was very exciting because this time it felt like and
maybe it was the area that we were in.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Oh yeah, Washington.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, we met, We met a forensic analyst, we met
a criminal defense attorney who listened to the show, not
just on the street, right, Yes, they came to the show,
they bought VIP tickets, they had a high Hi, how
are you take a picture with us? And it was
very exciting to be meaning actual people who's that I
don't know my microphone, Oh my god, Georgia's microphone was leaving.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
They were.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
People who are in the business of stopping crime who
listened to this podcast, which we were very very honored by,
and thank you all for what you do and for listening.
But the most exciting part, I'll talk slowly so that
while Stephen George's microphone she can still participate.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
The story without me.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Stephen Harry, Wow, that was fast the most exciting for well,
I'll say for me, I think for you too. Oh.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
I started crying crying.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
When we were in Baltimore, the Rams head thank you everybody.
The Rams said. That was a really cool like rock
and roll venue, so hilarious, weird, like you could smell
the sticky beer from decades past. Yeah, the Pixies were
playing the night out. That's what we were freaking out about.
We kept saying, we were trying to We wanted to
leave something for Kim Deal somewhere in the dressing room.

(02:34):
But anyway, these two guys walk up in the meet
and greet and flip out an ID, their federal ID,
and it turned out two FBI agents were at the
show and he knew to flip his ID open because
we'd lose our shit. So he walks towards.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Us like in the Coppist copyist cop manner.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
I think he was like six foot six. Listen, both
of them were. Both of them were incredibly handsome. They
were two hot FBI agents with big smiles on their
faces doing a bit for us.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
And they looked they looked like FBI agents, young ones
that but were cool.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yes, not that you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yes, well, no, they were great and they were super
funny because they immediately were doing a bit about the
girl that did a hometown and Georgia. This was my
favorite part is I was immediately just like I had
no idea what to say, and I was completely starstruck.
Where I'm like, I looked at this guy's ID, but
when this is fake, yells across me and goes move

(03:34):
your finger, your fingers covering your face, and it was
it was just the way he flipped open his like
wallet looking id FBI agent ID. His finger was over
his own face, which is like a trick people use
when they're trying to trick you into like getting.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Into your cloth.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Totally, he started laughing because she moved his finger, and
of course it was him.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
Did not believe him, and I was like, that's a
fucking age old.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Everyone knows that trick. And then it turns out it
was not a trick. They were two real deal FBI
agents who worked for They.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Worked for the anti terrorism squad. I don't know if
it's the thing. I doubt it's a squad gang, right,
the anti terrorism gang.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
And then the reason the other guy was with him
was because the first guy who covered his face was
supposed to go with his girlfriend or fiance. She got
deployed to Afghanistan. Yes, I think she was the forensic pathologist.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Maybe she definitely worked in the business as well, but
she was also in the military because she got deployed
to was it Afghanistan?

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Totally Afghanistan.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
And we were just like, you're you're the three of
your rock stars.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
You're living a life very different from ours.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
And also we talk about what you do all the
time as of war experts. I mean, now you're here
as as like audience members, but you're actually the experts.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
It was the the coolest experience. I asked so many
of the experts who were like I do this. I
asked most of them, are you mad at us?

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (05:06):
And it turns out none of them are mad at it.
Oh and then the cop No, wait, was that Austin
the cop with the eyeball killer? That was Oh, yeah
it was That was at mow right, it was moon Tower.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
You know, I think it was DC with the pregnant chick. No,
that was no, No, are you sure? I think it
was DC because the cop they brought me a cop convention.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Remember, you're exactly right, and that's why he was there.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
So there was the guy with the eyeball killer that
we did a couple few up, long time ago. Yeah,
I don't know how many episodes we recorded, Like this
is number ten, right, He wanted to meet us. He
like tweeted that he was in town for a cop
convention and I was like, oh, God, are you mad
at us? Because I were mad at me because I
have no idea what I said about you in the episode.

(06:00):
His daughter in law came in pregnant and was like, no,
he thinks you're great.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Here's a signed copy of his book. But I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
All of that is right, except it wasn't the pregnant
girl that was separate.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
They were pregnant.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
There was three girls, thee the eyeball Killers.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Wasn't it his.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Stepdaughter, Yeah, something like that, and they were It was
her and her two friends.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah. He doesn't matter. It doesn't matter all except for that.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
We have these great experiences with people for forty five seconds,
and then another experience happens right after. It's very hard
to keep them.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
All track, but we like them all.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
The bummer was he was there and he waiting outside,
but we had no ability, Like it.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Was the end and we didn't have the ability to
get him inside.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
I feel like someday soon we're going to post the
Philly episode. It was the last episode and it was
sweet as fuck. I thought some girl that I should
be able to name recorded the stay Sexy, Don't Get
Murder part that we the crowd yells with us. H huh,
and I put it on Instagram and it's just so sweet.
It's like sweet asn't like sweet. It's just like this

(07:07):
great moment. Oh cool, I love, oh I love when
we do that at the end.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
It's so much fun. It's very fun.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
And all three shows were great, and all three audiences
were like one was better than the next.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
They were just like it.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
They were all so great and fun and excited, and
thank you all so so much for being there.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
And yes, stop asking us on Twitter. We're going to
come to your town. Yeah we will. Yeah, there's a
planned fall tour. Yeah, we just want to keep doing it.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, listen, so saying the word Australia and that's all
I'm saying. That's right, And say the word New Zealand
because that's also in there and New Zealand. And yes,
we're coming to your California.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
No, your state, We're coming to your personal California. Oh anyways,
it's what your California is, Like, this is my California,
but maybe Texas is your California, right, yeah, like what's
your California? What's your California. We also thank you for
sharing the news that Ian Brady is dead. That was
your your murder, that's the Mores murder.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah I thought he was dead. Who cares?

Speaker 3 (08:09):
He were never gonna get out, I mean whatever, Yeah, okay,
I mean it's great because he's murdering.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
He deserves to be dead, but okay, now he is.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
But the thing a lot of people were very excited
about is the very recent casting of zac Efron to
play the part of Ted Bundy.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
They were excited, but there were some weren't some, you know,
they just you guys seem to want to know what
our opinion was because you had said.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Who was the guy that you said should play him?
Never mind? But no recollection.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Even though I remember us talking about, okay, I'll be
able to remember it. Steven Stephen's like, I don't listen
to this. What do you think of it?

Speaker 1 (08:49):
I fucking dig it.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
At first I was like huh, but then I remember,
you know, he does these goofy movies, but he's also
done some cool shit and he's a good actor.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
Seems like a cool dude.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
And then someone put a photo side by side of
like a young Ted Bundy, and like a photo that
kind of matched of zac Efron, and it was just
exactly what it was supposed to be. Yeah, so if
he can, if he can act it, and it'll be legit.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
And I tell you now he can act it.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Because I may have been keeping this to myself up
until this point, although I can't imagine why, because I
love the movie. She'd seventeen Again. Yes, he was my
lover in the mid nineties when he was twelve. The
movie's seventeen again. I believe it's called with him and
Tom Lennon where he plays his own father. Yeah, he

(09:40):
is so brilliant in it. That must be the one
I was thinking of. Yeah, it's such good acting. It's
a Disney movie and it's a body switch. You know,
I'm young again. Yeah, it's basically zac Efron doing an
impression of Matthew Perry and it is so fucking great.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
My sister made me watch it for the first time.
She's like, you have to watch it, you'll like it,
and I have to trust her when she says that. Yeah,
she's always right, and it is. It's just masterful acting
by him. He doesn't get enough credit for what a
good actor he is, and he tries to do interesting stuff.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
My only thing was April texted me. My friend April
Richardson of Go Bayside podcast Fame. She texted me it
was like, I know I'm the one millionth person to
tell you this, but did you know zach Efron and
she's like, and what do you think? And I said,
you're the millionth person that's asked, but you're the first
person I'm answering. And I said, I'm I believe in
him one thousand percent. He just has to beef down

(10:31):
because he's too cut, right.

Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yeah, it's like it's that like seventies cut, which is
like super skinny but also muscular, but there's no sinewy
sinewy that's it.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, yeah, he definitely has to do that, but he's
like a bike rider as opposed to a weightlifter.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
I know.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, I'm just excited to see it. I mean, there's
not really a good one at all.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
There's the Mark Harmon one, which is fine, but it's
like a made for TV movie, so it's not.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Like and realized it realastic. It's not scholastic. It's not scholastic.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
It's not realistic, it's not bombastic, it's none of those things.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
I think it'll be good also because I think people
are just like, let's ride this fucking true crime wave
as hard as we can. Yeah, people are seeing that
there's so much interest. They've just combined two great things,
which is like what a girl's like true crime and
zach Efron totally let's do this thing.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
Speaking of listen, next week we're gonna talk about the
Ded Blanchard and Gypsy Rose documentary that's on HBO, So
go watch it and then we're going.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
To watch it and talk about it.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
But it's definitely something we want to chat with you about.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yes, I can't wait to see it. It's called Mommy,
DearS and Dead. Yes, so go to it's on HBO.
I think I'm pretty sure it is pretty sure.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Go watch that.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, I watch yourself. A bunch of people have watched
it and asked us about it. Georgia did her homework.
I did not, so I didn't want to out you.
Thank you, say that we're going to watch it.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yes, it was that's.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Called teamwork and I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
But Karen didn't do it and I did it. Can
you Matche? Oh my god? What a count I would be.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
There was some was there something in there that really
wanted to do that though?

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Because no, I was like, how do I get around
saying this?

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Well? That was masterful? I like, yeah, I pretended that
I had either. Thank you you took that hit?

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Steven? Did you watch it? Not yet?

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Okay, Steven, all right, so he's on it though, Okay, good.
Two against one any elvis, it's always two against one
in this setup.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
No, but I can't wait because.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
I believe Jamie Lee did it at our New York
Our Life New York episode, which we.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
Never aired, right did we not? I have no idea.
I have no idea he did. Okay, good, Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
Steven's here to to tell us what our life is.
But on that particular story, no information is enough. So
the fact that someone has put together an actual documentary
and has her gypsy today talk, Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
There's an a prison interview. And the whole time I
was just like, do I believe her? You cannot tell?
And then you're like, is she crying tears or is
she just sounding like and there's so much shit, And
then I didn't know the background at the mom so
that was really fucking interesting.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
That's in there as well.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Oh my god, And I can't wait. I know it's
I very much liked it.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
And the and the exciting part is which a bunch
of people told us, and we discovered the director, I
don't have her name, Handy is a murderino who somebody
posts a thing that said, look, when the when this
famous documentary filmmaker just shows up on our Facebook page.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
Like commenting on it like thanks, I'm glad you guys
liked it. Yeah, so cool. So we'll tell you guys
who it is next week. We'll write it down prepared thing,
we'll talk imagine. Oh I wanted to say, so my
in the vein of we love it when just suddenly
people like come out of the woodwork that you would
never know how murder and then they tell you about it,

(14:01):
like your uncle did that, right, Like oh I caught
the fucking Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
My cousin Marty uh is the one that lifted the
Richard Ramis's fingerprints at the last breaking and Entering in
San Francisco where they figured out who the night stalker was?

Speaker 3 (14:15):
And then you were like, why didn't you tell me?
And he's like, why would I tell you that?

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Ever?

Speaker 3 (14:18):
So I have a similar one, my cousin Nancy, who's
like pretty significantly older than me, you know, I think,
I don't know. And she's just like a normal, really lovely,
normal person and married with kids. She teaches old people
how to use the internet, like she's she's just a
really lovely woman. So she then, you know, tells me
he's very patient, doesn't it. She emailed me and says, Hi, Georgia,

(14:41):
I listened to one of your my favorite murder podcasts today.
One of the questions was something about someone you knew,
new and murderer blah blah blah blah blah. Well, back
in the late eighties early nineties, I worked at the
Peterson Publishing House in West Hollywood. One of the guys
in the photo lab killed one of the models on
a shoot. I knew him when I worked there, but
the murder was years after I left the company. But

(15:03):
I was an editorial assistant of one of the car
magazines and he'd come by and hand me the photos.
He never smiled, but looked me directly in the eye.
It was creepy. And then I knew anyway, and add
another relative who knows a murderer loved Nancy, And then
I was like, I think this is the one I know,
which is such an interesting story. It's Charles rathbund Yes

(15:24):
who killed Linda Sobeck in the fucking desert right, And
he said, oh, I hit her with my car on
accident when I was showing her some cool moves and
I buried her body because I got scared, and it's like, no,
you fucking didn't know. And then like they found another
one of his bodies close by that as well.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, was it in the desert? Was it in Angelie's
National form?

Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah, but I think it was like an open thing.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
I don't know plain type of thing.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Right right, it was just far away, like he would
basically get them to come and go on quote unquote shoots.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
And maybe that was just in my imagine, I like
pictured the desert, So yeah, that's that's what it looks like.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
It doesn't it.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Was what we know is it was far away, Yeah,
because I don't know my I'm pretty sure though that
that was a city confidential for Los Angeles about the
death of Lindosobec.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yes, and I told her.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
I I messaged her back and was like, I've fucking
gone into a rural, rural area with a guy who
wanted to take photos of me when I was younger
and didn't get murdered, and so that murder is just
I know what it's like to suddenly be like, oh
fuck this, this was a mistake and nobody knows I'm here.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yes, yeah, so scary.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
And I don't know this. I thought I kind of
knew this person. I don't know him at all.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
Right, yeah, yeah, Well, when you're young, you think you're
friends with everybody. Yeah, it's just like, oh, yeah, my buddy,
that's a photographer or whatever. Where it's like, where's he from?
What does he have any siblings? How much do you
know this person?

Speaker 1 (16:54):
And you're easily charmed. You don't bring anyone with you.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Right, you do it by the dictate. Okay, this is
how we're going to do it. This is where we're
going to go because you don't know toe say fuck no. Well, also,
you're so complimented by the fact that someone's like, I
think that you are a model, right.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
Which I totally I admit to that completely. Of course,
why wouldn't you. Yeah, that's a big that's a big
part of all of that. And then the shame of like, oh,
how dare you think that? I mean, it's the perfect play.
They have you coming and going listen, don't do it,
you guys. Let's start at a well populated place and

(17:31):
you meet them there. Don't get in the car with them.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
Right right, Yes, And there's also there was a guy
that was doing this, and he was actually going up
to women at the Century City Mall had that one,
and he was saying he was a casting director for
the new James Bond movie. Yes, and they had it
on surveillance, right, they have him on surveillance. And he
would go to houses that were being He would get
shown the house by a real estate agents.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
So he knew it was an empty house.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Then he would have the women meet them at that
house and kill them there, and that's how he got caught.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
It's so crazy. Yeah, Uh, that's amazing.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
Can I quickly do a podcast recommendation?

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Of course?

Speaker 3 (18:11):
And I've said I've talked about this podcast in its
first season because it was excellent, and then they I
just like listened to the second season in a fucking
minute because it was so good. Someone knows something, which
I think they're calling sks now because no one knew
anything last season.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
Is that the Canadian one? Yeah, the guy with the
love him?

Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (18:30):
So he the second season is fucking great. It's really
great storytelling. He has so much empathy, which is you know,
hard to find sometimes in these stories. His name's his
name is David Riggan. Regan Regan and he's like helps
solve murders in the past. He's a documentary friend like,
but it's it's fucking heartbreaking. It's really well done. I

(18:51):
highly recommend it. He has the most charming Canadian accent.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
He's so charming, and that first season, even though there
were no hard answers, it still is such a great
See my god, it's so good.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
It's heart it's also heartbreaking.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
Yeah, but it's also it never really was solved, so
it's still so interesting because you don't know if someone
knows something or not right.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
And it also shows what these detectives are up against
when these homicides come in. It's likely because you know,
I do have a lot of guilt about how much
shit we talk about detective work or police work where
it's such armchair quarterbacking, and we talk about that a lot.
But it going through it that way, especially that was
that one was from the seventies I first season, Murder

(19:35):
of that Little Boy, and it's just like it's you're
they're going on nothing.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
They have strands, they have basic bits of information.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
And we don't think about the fact that they don't
have time. It's not like they have The next three
months to look into this case. They have, you know,
a bunch of other cases going as well and more
adding up, and they don't have the time to unfortunately
give to it by no fault of their own right,
you know the fact that they haven't hired enough detective.
I don't have the money too at the department.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, so it turns into all that red tape stuff. Yeah,
that's such a it's such an interesting like the fact
that politics affect so many of these murder cases and
how much time and attention they get, which then folds
in the whole thing of when sex workers are involved
and they get dismissed, or when it's did.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
She different here and did she just run away? Maybe
she just ran away?

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, that old kind of seventies like I don't want
to do the paperwork, she's a runaway, the sex working.
And then also just the like when it's a white
blonde teenage cheerleader that's in high school, all of the
political power goes behind it as opposed to anybody of color,
a person that's a sex worker, person that was a
drug addict.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
Well, what I love about this episode or this season
of Someone Something is it's not a fucking perfect blonde cheerleader.
She had been into drug she was an exotic dancer,
you know, she was had a temper.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
She wasn't but she still deserves she still deserves to,
you know.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Her mother is like the most heartbreaking character you've ever heard, Odette.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Which I love that name, but I got to listen
to that. Yeah, but yeah, it's good.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
It's not until and then there's the thing too of
like at the time of the murder, friends and family
might not want to talk, you know, they know things,
they're scared, but he's he's looking into it, like twenty
years later, and he's such an empathetic guy and he's
just trying to solve it. He's not trying to, you know,
fuck with anyone, right, And so they talked to him,
and I mean, he's fucking great.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, he's so good.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
So watch Someone Knows Something second season and first say
it's a podcast, right, yeah, yeah, O.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Hi, Hi? How are you? I'm great?

Speaker 2 (21:41):
How are you?

Speaker 1 (21:42):
I'm really good? Is there anything else we wanted to?

Speaker 2 (21:44):
I guess my only the one and I can't remember
if I've said this already, but I've gotten on your recommendation,
so into the now.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
I can't remember the name of it. Which one. What's
it about the guy, the Australian guy.

Speaker 3 (21:58):
Oh, cry mysterious wonders. Oh honey, Yes, mysteries abound mysteries.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Oh it is just the most beautiful.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
It is so beautifully presented. He at the top of
every story he cites his sources.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
That's the weirdest thing.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
I noticed where I'm like, ah, yes, that's what we're
that's what we're doing.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
But for someone who's just reading articles about mysteries throughout
the internet, it's so good.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
It's so good. It's not his stories. He's doing no research.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
He's well, he's reading articles, but he's it's performative. And
it's also he gets why certain things are interesting. I
don't know, it's just I've listened to now probably twenty
of them because we've been doing so much traveling.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
It's just the perfect podcast.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
And it goes all over the place, like seven interesting
facts about urine or like you know why the like
mysteries about the moon, which is my favorite fucking one.
It's like these things I never knew about. But then
also he is the most drone, like a most comforting voice.
So I fall asleep to it every fucking night. I thought, yeah,
I was falling asleep on the plane. But then there's
this one thing he does where like the he'll tell

(23:08):
the story and then have music in between the next ones,
and for some reason, that music is super loud, so
I keep waking up.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
When the story's it's scary, too bad, but I love it.
Mysteries Bound, okay, Mysteries Bound so good?

Speaker 3 (23:20):
Okay, So do we do ours? Do we go first
based on our tour or do we go first? We
did Git Sorry, Q and A last time, but then
we did the live show after Wait, we did the
live show before Q and it.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Stephen, Yeah, is this like a reset?

Speaker 4 (23:36):
Or do we go from the tour?

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Should we flip a coin?

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, flip the flip the coin, the FBI coin. Yes,
they gave us the.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Wait, what side do you want?

Speaker 2 (23:46):
The FBI guys gave us these commemorative coins that are
so cool looking. I mean, they even brought us presents.
Hot FBI agents brought.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Up hens the best time. It was, Oh my god.
I rarely get like.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Struck or I'm like, can't figure out one good thing
to say, and I just kept laughing and going really
really and like yeah. I almost started crying, which I
don't usually do.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
And then every like the next ten people who we met,
I was like those kids, like, so what all right?
So are you pick? Pick gold or blue? That's blue?
That's gold. This says Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
counter counter Terror Terrorism Division, and gang.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
It says, now it hasn't the counter terrorism gang.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
You.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, you'll do it.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
The one in the middle is blue, you know what
I'm saying, and that one's gold. Yeah, so Karen, you
call it. I'll be blue.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Can we flip a coin to see who calls it?
I'll be blue? You be gold? Okay, gold? Wait you blue?

Speaker 2 (24:50):
I'm oh wait, but we didn't say what we're flipping to?
Go first or last? Oh you get? Do you? Oh?

Speaker 1 (24:54):
So you get? Do you like going first or do
you like going last? I think it depends on the story.

Speaker 4 (25:00):
And do you mind clip to about whoever gets it
gets to choose what this is?

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Suddenly really interested in what's happening.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
Georgia won that. So do you want to just pick
what you want to do? I like going first?

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Do it? There's a real big bummer? I mean, yes,
so is mine?

Speaker 4 (25:17):
It?

Speaker 1 (25:17):
I mean it's a murder. It's like, no, mine's super
light hardened.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, there's nothing. It's it's not like an old one
or whatever. But but it's a good one. Okay, do
so you just do what you want. Okay, mine's pretty short, Okay.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
And what this? I just love it? Like we can't
even do a coin flip correctly. You know, we're talking amazing.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
We like recommend these investigative journalism like fucking like next
level pieces of journalism podcasts, and then we're like, flip,
goin to flip a coin, Stephen, did we who went first?

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Just slop?

Speaker 3 (25:50):
It's so enjoyable slop in a charming rapper.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yes, for sure, you know what I mean. I mean,
let's hope, like, what kind of candy is really gross?
And then you're like, oh, it looks so good. Remember
Rocky Road, which was dark chocolate covered, yes, marshmallows and
like some weird nut maybe a walnut.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Chocolate and oh fuck those were good? Did they not
have them anywhere?

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Oh? I was, I was naming it as a bad one.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
Oh, I guess there's no candy that's bad. Really, Yeah,
I guess you're right.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Let's talk about candy. For half an hour.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
I actually when we were leaving the airport, I fucking
will talk about candy skippers. When I was leaving the airport,
it was in that place where we had traveled so much.
I was so tired. I was so tired. And we
got back on Monday, and I was supposed to do
a show that night. Fucking bailed on it because I
was like, by the time the show was going to start,
it would have been two am my time, and I
had been traveling all week.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
I was like, well, and you were going to do
another podcast on the way home, weren't you.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
I did here my other podcast, do you Need a Ride?
I recorded one on the way home, honey. Then I
got home. When I laid down, all of my limbs
turned to cement. But when I was leaving the airport,
I walked by a seased candy cart and I was like,
I can have seas candy. I got this voice in
my head that was like it was my birthday. I

(27:06):
don't even know what I was thinking, but I walked
up and as I walked around the cart, I was
just like, so, what, You're going to take a pound
of candy.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Home and eat it?

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Don't they have the singles, they have like smaller boxes.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
But I got around.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
I walked around the whole thing, and then I met
a lady on the other side, and I said there
were little tiny boxes of things, and I go, do
you have tiny boxes of nuts and chees And she
was like, oh, no, only one pound. And I was like, okay, bye,
I've walked away before.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Anything else happens.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
Why don't they have samples in there like they do
that regular Seas candies because it's like a weird kiosk
and they don't, you know, next time?

Speaker 1 (27:42):
Their lollipops are super satisfying.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, those are good, except for there's too many flavors
I don't like of the lollipops.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
Is there a butterscotch? I think I like that one?

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Or coffee? There's coffee, there's butterscuch.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
I mean, listen, when you guys come to California, that's
our fucking Sea's candy. You just bring it to Whenever
I see one, I'm like, am I going anywhere soon
that I need to bring a box of Seas?

Speaker 2 (28:03):
I know? You know that's our Christmas thing. We're likenic thing. Really, Yeah,
that's all we do. Is like you're going to go somewhere,
you grab one of those und boxes and nuts and cheese,
and that's like the gift.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
I like the soft centers though, do you perfect? But
are like dark meat, white meat, turkey thing.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
You can share a chicken and a box of chocolates
and everybody's going to be satisfied.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
And what was I going to say? Yeah, we do
that too, just like a.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
Table and there's Jewish cookies and sees boxes candy and
everyone just sits around, talks and eats too much.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
And it's the best. So good. Shout out to Rugola.
It's just the best. Is the word that I just
shouted out? A cookie?

Speaker 2 (28:46):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Fuck shout out to Arugula. Just plain Rugla. Oh Rugla
is the lettuce.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
Oh yeah, I'm not randomly shouting at a lettuce.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
It wasn't that random. It was Jewish cookies, Ugla.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
And that's the one that you got at Michael's, the
the diner we went to after the show, right, No, that.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Was that was okay, it's where are we shout out?
I'm not sure? Do you want to start? Sure? All right?

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Shout out Mary, See you really made some good chances Mary.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Oh, I love her.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah, I meant the little old lady and with the glasses.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
In the shawl?

Speaker 3 (29:27):
Is that made up? I just recently found out that
what's the cookie woman? No wait, that's not right, Lorna Dune. No,
one of those people are made up. Oh, probably Betty
Crocker it yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
My friends reading a documentary on her. Is that a
thing you can read?

Speaker 2 (29:43):
She told me that, yeah, waits just created by a company.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, which I think is not fair. It is pretty
fucked up.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
Okay, Hey, speaking of fucked up, yeah, this one's a bummer.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
So on July a, nineteen eighty six, or in nineteen
eighty six, and I can see the outfit I'm wearing.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Or in an affluent community of Silver Spring, which is
located in Maryland, and nineteen year old Keith Woodell Warren
was found hanging from a tree two days after he
was reported missing by his mother. Keith, who's an African American,
had been accepted into North Carolina Central University and was

(30:27):
set to go in the fall, but he was currently
home for the summer, making money and saving it up
to go away handsome right. Everyone said he was a
good kid, you know, good good in school. He did
have some depression issues, but in his recent in his
recent past, his parents had divorce, but he had a

(30:48):
bright future. So on July thirty, thineteen eighty six, a
woman walking her dog dog had found Keith in a
wooded area near his family's home. His body was hanging
from a small tree by his neck and the tree
was bent double with his waists. The cord was elaborately
hung and anchored around the base of the tree, and
it was twenty five feet then to a small sapling,

(31:11):
so it was like this elaborate kind of hanging mechanism,
and then I encircled with sapling's trunk arched through a fork.
The first paramedic who arrived on the scene said that
he immediately knew it was a stage hanging ooh, and
so he didn't touch the body at all.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
He was waiting for the police to arrive.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
Nice but the officer and detective who arrived at the
scene released that paramedic.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
The officer stated that.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
This was interfering with his lunch break and they didn't
cordon off the area and the scene was trampled, and
I of course looked up his name and warning immediately crime.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Scene photos come up.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
Oh but you can see in the background of one
of them just some fucking shirtless dude hanging out staring
at the body. So they hadn't even taken it down yet,
and there was a guy, I you know, maybe not
even ten feet just hanging out.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
Whoa, Yeah, okay, it's like some hippie dude.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
So this was before they understood how but it I
don't think so, It's just it was just Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
Think when we read about a lot of these fucked
up crimes that happens, But I don't think that that
was a normal procedure. I can't imagine. Yeah, let us know,
cops from the eighty six.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, when did they When did they really know that
you had to lock down a crime scene and no
one got to come look be near it like a whole?

Speaker 1 (32:33):
Like what do they call that? Establish a perimeter?

Speaker 2 (32:36):
Like?

Speaker 3 (32:36):
I want to know as well, when did they start
wearing gloves and stop smoking at the crime scene?

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, cops, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
It had to be in somewhere in the nineties, because
even OJ Simpson's crime scene was handled without gloves, which
they definitely should have known by then. Yes, right, anyways, Wow, Okay,
it gets worse. Okay, despite the obvious discrepancies, authorities didn't
see anything wrong with the scene, and after a brief

(33:03):
visual inspection, the County Department Medical Examiner determined that Keithorne
had committed suicide. No autopsy was ordered. The body was
sent directly to a funeral home. The detective chose it.
And this was all that happened. Oh and his body
was embalmed all before his mother was even aware of

(33:24):
his death.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
What. Yeah, well, that's simply not procedure.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
No, I can't be.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
Well, back then you didn't need to perform an autopsy
on a suicide. But it was definitely suspicious. The embalming
that kind of thing is the parent's decision.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yes. And also he wasn't taken to a morgue. He
was taking to a funeral home.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
I think the funeral director didn't really get any information
about what was going on, so he just thought he
was supposed to embalm the body.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
But Silver Spring, do you know, a smaller place like
could they use that excuse that this was like small
town they're not used to.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
From what I can tell, I don't know if it was.
If it was just the community or what. But it
was like seventy thousand people. Okay, not huge, no, okay,
but it was like a It was like forty minutes
from Philly. It was like not far from DC. So
it's not rural. It's rural. How do you say that.
I can never hear saying it, right. It's just a
weird word.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
It's just stupid. Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 3 (34:22):
So by the six hours after he had been found,
his mother was finally told about it, and by then
he had been embalmed.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
I mean, that's unacceptable, I know. Okay.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
When the family asked for his clothing that he even
wearing at the time, the funeral home informed them that
most of it had been destroyed because of the decay
of the body had ruined them. So they just got
rid of the decayed body clothes, okay. They were only
given his jacket and a pair of brown boots. And
from I can say from those from those crime scene

(34:57):
photos that I of course looked at all of them
and almost started crying because I have to look at
them because I'm a fucking weirdo. He wasn't decayed at all.
He wasn't decaying. He was found two days after he
went missing.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Don't know how long it is up there, but he looks.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Like he had gotten there recently.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
There is nothing about him that looks like what you
would expect from a hanging, which is a lot of
really grotesque things happened to you, right, There was no
indication that he was decayed Anyways, Later when his mom
attempted to visit the tree to pray there because she
was so fucking heartbroken, she got there and realized the

(35:38):
tree had been cut down. What yeah, okay, taken into
evidence by the police, which his mother was like, if
this is a suicide and the case was closed, which
it was, why are you taking evidence?

Speaker 1 (35:49):
That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, you're taking an evidence for a suicide and a
cloth you don't do. You're not taking evidence from the body,
but you are taking the tree definitely. Uh.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
And the tree couldn't be found or maybe it was
destroyed in a fire. I couldn't really there's no Wikipedia
about this. There's like not a lot of shit. A
lot of the articles are just you know, the same
stuff regurgitated because there's just not a ton of information
out there. I couldn't believe there was an a Wikipedia
about this. Yeah, so I had to do a lot
of work, so Mary had doubts, but it really wasn't untel.

(36:25):
She heard from a friend of Keith's that she really
got uh suspicious.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
So Rodney Kendall was a friend of hers and said
that he had seen a car full of black mails
looking for Keith shortly before his death. Rodney told him
they hadn't seen Keith and they immediately left. Then several
days later, Rodney had another odd encounter with a high
school acquaintance of both of theirs, name Mark Finley, and

(36:54):
he said he seemed pretty urgent. I thought it was
strange because he acted like he needed to find Keith
very quickly, and I told I didn't know where he was,
and he left. So all these people searching for him weird.
The Marilyn County p D refused to hand over the
photos taken at the crime scene to his mother because
he said they would be too difficult for her to see.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
So she's asking to see him and I say no,
And they said that she should have a closed casket too.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
So April in nineteen ninety two, So this happened in
eighty six. It wasn't until ninety two, which would have
been her son's twenty fifth birthday exactly. Mary found a
plane manilla envelope on her doorstep, Anonymous, and inside there
were five pictures, each showing a different view of Keith's

(37:41):
hanging by his neck. So those are the photos that
I saw. WHOA yeah, and so it's from the back.
It's I mean a close up of his face. It's
just it's so heartbreaking. His face is so sweet and
like young. So she saw the photos and she found
glaring discrepancies, including his clothes didn't fit him, that he

(38:04):
was wearing, which made her think she was he was
wearing someone else's clothes. There was no decomposition, which the
funeral told her, her home told.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
Her there was. And also he was wearing in the photographs.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
Remember he had they had given him brown boots at
the funeral home, he was wearing white sneakers and the
photographs yeah what fuck?

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
There was a note attached to all these photos that said,
don't worry, Mark Finley will be next. And Mark Finley
was the kid who said that he had seen people
asking for Keith. So the family hired private detective Joe Alercia.
I think who In addition to these discrepancies also saw
that and this is the fucking point of it that

(38:52):
always gives me chills. So Keith had on the back
of his jacket leaves and debris, meaning oh he and
he didn't land on his back, meaning they started to
think that he had been brought there and hoisted it up.
So so the family also then hired a renowned forensic pathologist,

(39:16):
is Ador Melacis, who exhumed Keith's body and did a
toxicology report, which they never fucking did originally, which is insane, right, Like,
even not an autopsy, a toxicology report is just seems
like a basic you.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
Know, yeah, if you're just looking for information of what happened,
how did.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
He kill himself, what state of mind was in at
the time.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
And also just that the family would want the difference
between somebody who has hung themselves and somebody who has
died under suspicious circumstances. You to give a family a
story of your son killed himself is a totally different
narrative and says something about your son that then you
have to live with, whereas your son being a victim

(40:00):
of a murder is a completely down story.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
It's just like, no answers, you get no answers.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah, well, and someone you know, there is something too
about the fact that they saw a young black man hanging.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
From a tree.

Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yeah, an immediately with suicide where it's like someone said,
it reminded me of the old South, Yeah, and hangings
and not that old. I mean, it's still happened by
fucking racist motherfuckers at the time, right, So to see
him hanging suspiciously, and I saw it his legs his
feet are on the ground and his legs are kind
of bent forward, so he's almost in like if he

(40:35):
were in a sitting position with his legs forward, and
then it got hoisted up a little, so he wasn't
hanging right. And it was definitely, like you know, indicative
of lynching. Yes, is indicative the right word? Yes, I mean, yeah, great.
But also it's that thing of yeah, that's to rush

(40:56):
all of that away, not to immediately at the scene
say sue side no, nope, no, no, yeah, sorry, I
didn't mean to rap you.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
No, no, no, that's I'm agreeing with you and going
with what you're telling me. And it's very upsetting. Okay,
your gall, Yeah, I will listen to it.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Yeah, Gall no, it is okay, shit man, This is
called question yourself corner right by Georgia So Okay. Toxicology
report analysis reveals abnormally elevated amounts of here we go, trichlora, methanae,

(41:36):
methane tricle or methane okay, solvent found in paints and laquers,
and powerful chemicals that are usually found in glue and solvents. So,
according to doctor Isidor uh Mahallakis, the levels found in
Keith's body.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
Were more than enough to kill him.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
And this is a body that has already been what
do you call it, embalmed, embalmed and buried. So there
was the argument that maybe they came from the embalming,
maybe they came.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
From the soil where he's buried. Yeah, but it was pretty,
it was pretty.

Speaker 3 (42:13):
The doctor felt sure that it was not that because
they weren't chemicals used in that, okay, And they weren't
you know, they were at high enough levels that it
wouldn't have been absorbed.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
If it was in the soil. Okay. So you know,
it's the it's the argument, is it or isn't it?

Speaker 2 (42:28):
You know? And but the doctor's saying, I'm fine, I
know what I'm looking at, I know what the situation was,
and I'm finding these chemicals there anyway, and that's highly suspicious.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
Yeah, but the other side probably we're just as sure
that it wasn't true.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Well, the thing is, once you've embalm my body, you
can't fucking say anything for sure, which is why you
don't rush to embalm.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
I mean that one is the biggest glaring thing of
that's the biggest fuck up. Yeah, what do you or
cover up? Yeah? Okay, for sure, okay, mm hmm okay.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
Based on the high levels of this chemical in the
victim's body, the doctor concluded that severe mental confusion would
have resulted and impair decision making of routine actions, so
he couldn't even decide to kill himself if he wanted to, okay.
Outside investigators claimed that the way he had apparently hung
himself was practically impossible due to the small tree and

(43:21):
the fact that two ropes were used in the suicide.
I don't totally understand, because you can still if you
want to kill yourself and you need two ropes, you
can still do.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
I guess they were what they were saying is the
way that's set up, and what it sounded like is
they were using a long tree against the other boys.
That it was, Yeah, that basically you can't do that
by yourself.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
So all he would have needed to hang himself was
run rope and one tree not and there was nowhere
for him to jump off of either. Yeah, so I
don't I think it's probably you know, they were like, well,
you can. You can hang yourself any way you want.
But I feel like, in the same way that when
people try to drown themselves, you just can't allow yourself
to do that. There's some something deep in you that

(44:01):
stands up or gets out of Yeah, there's the fight
instinct inside of you.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
Right, So there's that.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
And then he said, I do not believe that he
would out of the ability to hang himself, and for
that matter, he would not have the ability to make
the decision about hanging himself, And so he ruled the
death that the death must be investigated as a homicide.
The family appealed to the Maryland County PD and eventually
the United States Attorney General Janet Reno for colonel investigation

(44:30):
into the death, as well as the subsequent actions of
the police department. All requests have been denied. Oh yeah,
so here's what I wrote. So how did Keith die?
And these are kind of taken all over the internet
of ideas. Did the overdose on solvents found that were
found in his body? He was at a party with friends,

(44:51):
Maybe they were huffing, maybe they were doing drugs, and
he overdosed and his friends panicked and staged his death
to look like a suicide to avoid police, right, which
would make sense of his clothes being changed, because maybe
he vomited all over his clothing. Maybe there was blood
on that and so that's why they changed his clothes,
including his shoes, and they just wanted to make it

(45:12):
look like a suicide. Or did someone you know come
from behind with a rag and that's why he had
to salpins inside him? So it wasn't his choice. Yeah,
His backpack had some of his favorite tapes in it,
which points to him maybe going to a party. That's
just in my opinion, Like you know, when you're going
out with friends, you're like, I'll bring some music, we're

(45:33):
going to hang out, right.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Because back in I will say this, in the eighties,
you didn't you didn't travel with tapes like you would
make one mixtape maybe and bring it somewhere, but like
usually left that either at home or in your car
because they were just such a pain.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
Yeah, so he had his backpack favorite tapes in it,
which makes me think that's someone he was going to visit,
someone he knew in that what just that I was
thinking about. It's like part if it was a party,
you word about a mixtape, one or two tapes. If
it was his friends, he'd be like, I want you
to hear this tape, this new one, this one's great.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
Right, Does that make any sense? I think?

Speaker 2 (46:10):
So that's off the top of my head and clearly
just speculation. We're just speculating.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
So, okay, some people thought that he may have been
and this is on like you know wiki, uh what's
a reddit and shit, that he may have been an
informant to the police and he was found out by
the local drug dealers, which might have been the guys
in the car, and they were looking for him and
killed him. Which makes sense that the cops would cover

(46:38):
it up because they don't want everyone to know that
they caused a murder. Yes, which is actually I keep
trying to find this murder that I found out about
long time ago, there was this girl. It's kind of
small town. The cops found all this lsd on her
and said, you're going to jail forever or you need
to be our informant. And the guys, the drug dealers,
she went over there wired they found out shot her

(46:59):
in the fucking but it took them a long time
to find out about that.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
I can't find that one. I think I remember you
telling me about that one. It sounds familious. It's always
stuck with me. Took the sweet hippie you know in
the nineties, hippie girl. Yeah, okay, So was it a
hate crime? Very well could have been. Did he actually
somehow commit suicide? I mean, that's always an option to

(47:24):
it's not gone. So, in a final disturbing twist, the
one person who may have been able to answer those
questions turned up dead under suspicious circumstance.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
Mar Finley Mark Finley, oh shit.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
When he was one of the guys who came looking
for Keith a few days before he died, and his
mother had received the package it said Mark Finley's next
she told him and he said to her that he
would be by to see her soon, And she said
he said I need to unload. So maybe he was

(48:00):
one of the friends at the party, maybe he knew something.
So one month after she received those photos and talked
to him, he was dead. According to police, he died
accidentally when he was struck when he struck a curb
on his bike and was thrown off in what was
described as a freak accident. However, according to paramedics who

(48:21):
were on the scene, his wounds were not consistent with
a bicycle accident. His wounds were more consistent with being
hit by a car or being hit with a baseball bat.
Oh man, his wounds were greater that could have been
than that falling would have caused, especially in the location
where it allegedly took place. So his mother, Mary Cooey,

(48:44):
died suddenly in May May twenty fifth, in two thousand
and nine.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
And she ded a Keates mother.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
Yeah, she dedicated her life after that finding justice. They
spent a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
They had called awards for finding her information.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
Reward yes yeah, not awards, well, monetary awards or as
we know them, rewards.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
Yes, yes, thank you, awards too positive for this, I mean, listen.
So she died never found any justice but her but
Keith's sister, little sister Sherry Warren, has taken up her
mom's fight. She says that even if he died of
an accidental overdose, she still wants the Maryland County PD

(49:33):
to be held accountable. Yeah, actions, so she organizes marches.
She is still looking for answers. There's still rewards out there,
and she just wants answers.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
Yeah. Also, just that idea, it's just that thing of
like what they if something procedurally is so screwed up
that they they're taking pictures of a dead body and
there's just kind of a dude loitering in the background,
or there there's no parimeter on the crime scene, or
there's no or they're rushing a body to be taken

(50:06):
to the funeral home. Like all of those things, aside
from the injustice to this family and to this victim.
They can't do it that way ever again. So it's
that idea too, that like this, it's just that thing
of the crime procedure cannot be that screwed up, Like
you just have to learn from those mistakes, say, it's
all a mistake. Yeah, best case scenario, it's just a

(50:29):
series of terrible mistakes.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
Especially because those people who were there at the time
are probably not on the force anymore.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
They probably retired. Yeah, so it's kind of admitting.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
It's a thing of like when you hear on these
onlike you know, forty eight hours and all these things
of like cops saying or detectives saying, yeah, we did
that wrong and we learned from it. It's so refreshing
to hear because everyone makes mistakes, you know, and we're
fucking big on the eighties and nineties and before that
being fucked up in terms of you know, procedures.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Yeah, so it is, and it is tough because you know,
to be involved in uh, in crime, in stopping crime,
you have to be a big, tough man who is
brave and faces the worst of all society all day
every day, and so admit it and get being flexible

(51:24):
and being able to admit mistakes and all those kinds
of things don't go along with that persona.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
And I think that's changing too.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
It's that thing of like it's the no one's looking
for you to be the like Texas ranger, yeah, or.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
Do every single thing correctly.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
Yeah, people make mistakes, and it's like, you know, one
guy in the on the forest believes it's not what
it is. He's not gonna fight with every other guye
on there. Yeah, woman, he's not gonna fight with his
fucking boss. You know, you get labeled snitch and you know, right.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Or troublemaker or whatever from what we know on on Order.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
All the shit you get hit on, get desk job,
death duty after.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
That, that's exactly right. It's all political. I mean, it's
it's political where it shouldn't be. But wow, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
It's the fact I just can't believe there's not more
on that.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Yeah, more on that, especially because well it also kind
of goes to show that I feel like in this
day and age, because that is such a a black
man being hung hung and having that not fully and
thoroughly looked into is such a.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
It is so problematic.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
It's such a like the kind of thing that I
think people are working very hard to make sure it
doesn't get swept under the rug anymore.

Speaker 3 (52:40):
Hopefully, and to be fair, Case File did an episode
on this, like in January, so it's not nobody's you know,
episode forty three.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
He does you know.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
His story as well, So I don't want to not
give them a shout out him a shout out.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah, but it's fucked up, man, Let's let's open that
back up. Yeah, I'd love to know the answer to that.
That's crazy, mine's fucked up to Congratulations so rare that
you find a murder story.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
That's awful.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
I got actually the first whiff of this I ever heard.
Uh is from the show Real Detective that we've talked
about anytime?

Speaker 1 (53:26):
So good on Netflix?

Speaker 2 (53:28):
It is? Uh? It's is it on Netflix? I'm not
sure it's on regular TV? Now, Like I have just
t vode and so I have like ten episodes from
regular TV. Okay, then what is on the season one
is on sorry what you like to call regular TV?
I mean at this this standage, it's just regular TV.

(53:49):
But you can also it's on on demand on direct TV.
That's how I watch the one I watched today. I
hate on demand why because you can't put it in,
you can't list it. You have to specifically look for
something and then watch it.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yes, you have to know exactly what you're looking for.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
And I can hate that there's a new show coming
up called like New York detect or like the FBI
in New York or some shit. Yeah, and they went
immediately to record it and you can't. It's just I'm
gonna forget it immediately.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Oh well, make Stephen remind you listen.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
Stephen, can you change Direct TV? Please listen? Give DirecTV
a call.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
You need to start writing some letters.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
Yeah, okay, so Real Detective, We'll try to watch it
any way you can find out. But the reason I
loved this episode was not only because it was a
southern California serial killer that I'd never heard of, which
is pretty fascinating, But on this episode The Real Detective,
if you haven't watched, it basically follows the one detective

(54:47):
who solves this crime, and that detective is there talking
about themselves in the twenty years ago or whenever the
thing happens.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
It's like doing the storytelling, so it's not like a
dramatic reenactment there.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
It's first hand experience of what it was like for
this person to get catch this case, go through be
at all these crime scenes, and eventually thankfully solve the crime.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
And there are reenactments, but they're.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Good exactly, yeah, because they actually hire great actors, because
it's not just they don't just do like reenactments that
are silent. There are whole scenes that they do like sceamalang. Yeah,
it's a really great show. Okay, So this one is
the Riverside County. The name of him was the Riverside
County Prostitute Killer originally, but I called him the Riverside

(55:36):
County serial Killer, and the detectives named Bob Creed.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
And he he is, especially as a detective.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
He is so empathetic and he is so lovely and kind,
and the way he talks about all of these victims,
it's the episode starts with him just kind of listing
all the victim's name, like he knows all of them now.
So it's that kind of thing where you're just watching
a person who this was his life and this he
took all of all of these deaths to heart, and

(56:11):
the fact that it was taking place in his home
town and his home territory and it's this incredible story.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
So well, that's refreshing because when you said the name
of what it was before the prostitute Killer, I immediately
was like, oh, well, then they're not important. So him
naming them immediately makes me think that they're important.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
It's not only that, but the way they present these
murders in on the show Real Detectives, they really play down,
if not don't mention the prostitute aspect at all. So
they really are just talking about they found this victim here,
they found this victim here, And when and when Bob
Creed talks about them, he talks about like he starts

(56:53):
out by saying, these were women with families who loved them,
and he talks about the family. They were good families
and they loved their daughters. So it's because all of
the in the murder Pedia articles that I was reading,
it's all just prostitute, drug user, because.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
You never know the circumstance of their life, you don't.
And the killing fields do that really well when they
talk to their families and sisters. But you know, when
I go missing, is it going to be ex drug addicts?

Speaker 2 (57:19):
You know? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (57:20):
Yeah, because I drug add It was a drug addict at.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
One point, yet I haven't been in twenty you know.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
It's like like we did I did a murder when
we were doing the live shows, and one of them
called her a prostitute, but in other places I saw
as a messuse and it's like did she cross some
lines at her job, and they called her a prostitute.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
It's just there's so many there's so many nuances around it.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Well, yeah, and when you boil, like in journalism and
this kind of journalism, when you boil people's lives down
to the to their criminal records or the like, the
basic facts of their lives, what are you choosing to
leave in and what and what are you choosing to
bring out? Because there are lots of people who have
been addicted to drugs, whether or not go to jail
for it. There's lots of people on drugs right now

(58:03):
that if you died right now and they took the
toxicology report, not you, but like anybody in the street,
any man in the streets, that if they died and
they took the toxicology report, and they'd be like, well,
you're filled with well butrin and adderall and did this
and that just chilca, max and pot and you and
you just had four drinks.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
So are you a drug user? And so should your
murder matter less? Because of that?

Speaker 2 (58:29):
And that's kind of like I was really blown away
because when I was when I was reading these old articles,
it was one story. But the way real detective presents
this is so different and it's so modern, and then
this detective on top of it, you love him and
you love.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
The work that he's doing because it's just very personal.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
So all right, so this is like no, this guy,
the I need you to and the presentation or this
like what I've written up is a combination of me
writing down things from this episode of Real Detective. But
it's also there's an article I found in murder Pedia
that gave me a really good timeline and talked a
lot about these victims. And it was written by a

(59:08):
guy named David Lore. His article was called the Riverside
Prostitute Killer. I didn't get a year on it, but
it does seem old because it's definitely from like the
early nineties. So anyway, October thirtieth, nineteen eighty six. So
there's an area I don't know how much you know Riverside,
like the Riverside city or the.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
County Vague even though I'm from here.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Yeah, it's like it's weird because it's it's about an
hour and a half directly south of where we are
right now, and it's never way.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
We never go there.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
It's halfway between here and San Diego. It's Inland Lake
Elson or is the big like this guy, Yeah, that
lake that's nearby. It is like kind of the tourist
nice area, and that's where this guy lived. But almost
of the murder the crime scenes are in and around Riverside,

(01:00:00):
the city itself. So there's apparently an industrial area outside
of Riverside called Rubbido and it's like apparently smoggy and
gross and it's all factories. So on October thirtieth, nineteen
eighty six, there's a man who's collecting cans that around
that area and he comes upon the body of a

(01:00:22):
woman who's stuffed into a drainage ditch. She's covered in blood,
her clos are ripped to shreds, and her genitals have
been mutilated.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
So he runs.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
This man who discovers this horrible crime scene runs to
the closest factory to get help, and the police identify
her as twenty three year old Michelle Ivedutierras and she's
from Corpus Christi, Texas, and her autopsy reveals that she
suffered severe trauma to anal and vaginal areas. Multiple stab

(01:00:54):
wounds were discovered on her face, chest, and buttocks, and
she has ligature marks on her neck, suggesting that she'd
been strangled while she was being mutilated.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
So bad news right away.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
So two weeks later, on December eleventh, the body of
twenty four year old Charlotte Jean Palmer is discovered near
a Highway seventy four in Romoland, which is twenty five
miles away from the Gutierra's murderer scene, and her body
was so badly decomposed that they couldn't figure out the
cause of death, so they weren't even necessarily related. In

(01:01:34):
January of nineteen eighty seven, so about a month later,
the naked and mutilated body of thirty seven year old
Linda Ann Ortega is found along a dirt road in
Lake Elsinore. She had been dead for at least three days.
They found alcohol and cocaine in her bloodstream. Investigators later
discover that she worked part time in a fast food restaurant,

(01:01:58):
but she also had a rapshoot for drugs and sex working.
Now the investigators are starting to see that they have
three similar homicides where the young women are being brutally
stabbed to death and strangled to death. So then four
months later, on May second, nineteen eighty seven. Martha bess

(01:02:20):
Young Twenty seven year old Martha Bess Young is discovered
in a ravine not far from the Ortega murder site.
She is fully naked in a spread egal position. She
also had a wrap sheet for sex work and high
levels of drugs were found in her body, and the
corner determines that she's been dead for about three weeks

(01:02:44):
and she had died from a lethal dose of amphetamines
while she was being strangled, So like.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
He injected her with amphetamines while he was strangled or
like at some point, I.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Don't know, just that they're both exists, Like she has
a lethal dose inner system, but she fixed is what
she actually died from.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
But she also those things were happening like at the
same time, got it, I was picturing it, like like
at the exact same time.

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
Yes, like he shot her up while he's with one
hand on her neck and yeah, which probably didn't happen.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
No, but the first woman who was found, Michelle Gutierrez,
also had stab wounds, but she lethal stab wounds, but
she died from being strangled. So they do think that
he kills them and attacks them at the same time, right,
I mean it's like all one frenzy.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
It seems nice, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
So so then no murders for oh almost two years,
and then January twenty seventh and nineteen eighty nine, the
body of thirty seven year old Linda may Ruez, who
was a sex known as a sex worker, was discovered
on the beach of Lake Elsinore and her head was
buried in the sand, and the autopsy reveals she has

(01:04:04):
a high blood alcohol level and there were sand found
in her throat and the cause of death is asphyxiation.
Then about six months later, same year, the body of
twenty eight year old Kimberly Lyttle is discovered in Cottonwood Canyon.
Also she is also known as a sex worker and

(01:04:26):
a drug user, and her autopsy reveals the presence of
alcohol and drugs. The official cause of death is listed
as asphyxiation, and they find on her they finally find
fibers and pubic hares that are not hers. So they
finally find some evidence that they can use that they

(01:04:50):
don't know what to compare it against, but they're saving it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
It's crazy that later that many victims they didn't have
a touch of that even.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
Right, No, I mean not as not so far that's
listed on this article, or that they knew how to
lift at that time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Yeah, maybe because it was pretty early.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
What year is it, This is in the late eighties,
so yeah, it started in nineteen eighty seven, so they probably.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
Didn't know what could be like what could be used
as DNA, So even if there's some kind of saliva
or the right, they wouldn't know maybe maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
So but also they're starting to I think compare, They're
starting to keep track of these so it's like they
know they can see what's standing out on these victims
as they go, and so they're like, okay, we have
a pubicare that's not hers, And like they're they're learning
what to look for and what to keep as they go. Okay,

(01:05:45):
So on November eleventh, same year, a local resident discovers
the body bludgeoned and mulated body of thirty six year
old Judy Lynn Angel near to Mescal Canyon Road, and
this is just north west of Lake Elsinore. And she
also had a rap sheet for sex working and drugs.

(01:06:10):
But they discovered defensive wounds in her hands when she's
when her autopsy is being given. She also had several
blows to the face, and ultimately she died of having
her cranium crushed. So then the next month they find
the body of twenty three year old Christina Leal in

(01:06:31):
Quail Valley. Now she fully appears, fully closed and not
having suffered any serious abuse or mutilation.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
She was had a record for sex work and drugs.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
And at that crime scene, investigators found found tire tracks
for the first time, so they made impressions of those
tire tracks.

Speaker 3 (01:06:55):
Which I found so fascinating that they think to do that.
But to me, that's like one in a million chances
of finding that person. But yeah, I guess it can
be used once they find somebody, I think it's a suspect.
What kind of car did they drive at the time exactly?

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
And when it's serial killing, they know if they start
finding taking imprints of tire tracks to compare to the
other places, because they know that eventually there's gonna be
some that becomes a consistent impression that they're like, Okay,
this is the this is the this is the tire,
maybe this is the car.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
So, so then when when she gets her autopsy, the
corner finds that she had one stab wound to the heart,
and they didn't notice it at the beginning because she
had been stripped and then redressed by the killer.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Oh so there was no through the shirt. There wasn't anything.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
It wasn't a stab through the shirt. It was underneath.
So the cops didn't see it like weird right away. Yeah,
super weird. Here's a weirder thing and maybe the weirdest
thing of this, of this whole case. And when they
inspected the victims genital area, they found the killer had
put a light bulb up into the woman's No, that

(01:08:11):
the woman's womb. So he's shot all the way up
and it was unbroken. And it was also a very uh,
it was a very kind of different. It was an elongated.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
Light bulb. It was different.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
It wasn't just a standard come. It was kind of
old timey looking, it wasn't it wasn't a common one
for somewhere in something exactly. So they now know that
he's escalating and he's becoming more uh, you know, deviant, he's.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
Starting to do weird shit. That seems like such a
big clue that they're almost lucky to have. Was she
dead or Alie would not happen I feel like she
must have been dead.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
I think she must have been dead because it took
they said, it must have taken a really long time
for him to be able to put it up there unbroken.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
Yeah, because she would have been fighting, yes, right, Oh
so fuck sake.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
So he's then now the escalation is part of Part
of that them knowing he's escalating is because he's leaving
things behind intentionally and he's degrading them more than average
because because he was, you know, the degradation of being
left you know, often spread eagle, often half naked, in ditches,

(01:09:28):
in drain it, you know, in like on these places
where he's just saying, these people are garbage with how
he's leaving them. But now he's adding to it even
more in a very upsetting way.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
So then on the morning of January eighteenth, nineteen ninety
so it's actually only a month later, but it's the
next year, investigators get called to a scene east of
the I fifteen in Lake Elsinore. A jogger had found
the half nude body of a woman who is identified
as twenty four year old sex worker Darla Jane Ferguson.

(01:10:05):
She had been strangled, so severely that she nearly bid
off her own tongue.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
I didn't know. That's the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Minded neither investigators find tire tracks at this crime scene
make impressions at this crime scene. A month later, February eighth,
nineteen ninety, farmers working at an orchard in High Groove
find the nude body of thirty five year old Carolynn Miller,
also known as a sex worker and drug addict. She

(01:10:34):
had gone missing a month earlier. She had multiple stab
wounds to the chest and she also had a wound
near her right nipple. They found pubic hares on this
victim that they kept. And this murder is where that

(01:10:56):
episode of Real Detective starts because they they basically come
in and they they talk about how these murders had
been going on okay, and but they just it was
the kind of thing of like they would have a
murder and it would be a sex worker and they
would be like, oh no, and they were like suspecting
that they had a serial killer.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
But it wasn't until.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
This. I think this may have been Bob Creed's like one.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
Of his early like when he got put on the case,
was that the point, uh no, Because.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
I think he was on this task force early, but
I guess that the point of interest was when he
got there and he was looking at the crime scene,
he realized that his grandfather used to own that orchard.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
Whoa, And so he's starting to go, is this guy
fucking with us?

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
Like, is this guy doing this on purpose?

Speaker 2 (01:11:52):
Because they also there was a half eaten grapefruit that
had been peeled, half eaten and thrown on the victim
the fuck So there was like a lot of kind
of uh messaging in that which that kind of like
he was really freaked out about.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
So obviously I was taking his time. He was purposely Yeah,
what's the word antagonizing the police?

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Yeah, that's what that's That's where he started to go, like,
could this guy know? Could this guy have known that
this was my grandfather's Like he's like, we used to
play here when I was a little kid.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
Yeah, So.

Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
I wish I knew exactly when they put this task
force together. I don't have it, but it basically it was,
like I would say, probably after the fifth or sixth body,
they actually put a dedicated task force together to be
like what is going on? But they never find fingerprints
at any scene. They know that the bodies have been

(01:12:51):
taken to those scenes and dumped there, that they're so
they can rarely find any evidence, and they've only found
tire prints twice up up until this point.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
And no salmon.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
Not that, not that I've ever heard, I feeling they
would say, so, yes, so yeah, so the guy's very careful.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
Okay, so.

Speaker 2 (01:13:16):
Under December twenty first, nineteen ninety, a janitor emptying the
garbage a factory complex on Iowa Avenue discovers the nude
and carefully opposed body of a young woman who turns
out to be twenty seven year olds Susan Sternfeld, also
local sex worker drug addict. There's no mutilation on her remains.

(01:13:42):
She died of strangulation. The County Corner eventually finds out.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
Next.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
Forty two year old Kathleen Leslie Milne is discovered on
January nineteenth. A motorist is driving by and sees her
body alongside a road northwest of Lake Elsinore. She had
been rendered unconscious by several blows to the head and strangled,

(01:14:10):
but she had been dead less than twenty four hours.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
Oh my god, the man. I would hate to be
the person who found her. Yeah, so so horrifying.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
So then a couple months later, April twenty seventh, a
transient stumbles upon the body of twenty four year old
Schari Michelle Payser, a part time made and sex worker.
She'd then left in a flower bed in a Bowling
Alley parking lot. She'd been violated, strangled, posed, and this
is awful. She had a toilet plunger protruding from her vaginant.

(01:14:43):
So this is a person that is intent on degrading,
after murdering, degrading these victims. And there's a couple parts
in this episode of Real Detective where he is Bob
Creed is talking and then he just stopped talking and stairs,
and then they just cut away to something else because
he's just like, because he's seen, he's remembering these horrible

(01:15:06):
fucking scenes that he had to come upon end process.

Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
Well, what I noticed too, is that it seems like
he's getting more and more bold with where he leaves
the bodies. Yeah, because he's not putting him in a
drainage ditch where no one will see him put it there.
It's putting in a flower bed in a parking lot
of like probably busy business at a bowling alley, bowling alley.

Speaker 1 (01:15:25):
That's just so bold. Yes, exactly right, because he's gotten
away with it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
Now how many twelve times or however many whatever number
I'm on, that's fucking with them. Yeah. So now he's like,
I'm smarter than the police. I can get away with this.
I'm doing whatever I want. I can't breathe, okay, So
now July fourth, nineteen ninety one, picnickers near railroad Canyon
Road discover the remains of a thirty seven year old

(01:15:52):
Sherry Anne Latham. Also has a rap sheet for sex
work and drug use. Her hand was wrapped around nearby branches,
suggesting she was still alive when the killer left her.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
Oh uh huh.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
An autopsy later reveals that she'd been strangled, and they
find cat hairs on her corpse. According to her friends,
she did not own a cat. So now the investigators
are thinking the killer does fuck. So they take those
hairs and they put them aside.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
Kind of monster murders women but also has a cat.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
I mean, it kind of goes to show how great
cats are.

Speaker 1 (01:16:34):
They love you no matter what, no matter what kind
of monster you are. Monsters love them no matter what. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
So they get their first major lead on August fifteenth,
nineteen ninety one, because a man driving a gray van
picks up a sex worker near the University of California Riverside,
and she told investigators that everything was fine at first.
Then he becomes angry and starts assaulting her, and she
manages to jump out of his van and run down
the street.

Speaker 1 (01:17:00):
Good girl.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
So he leaves, but then he stops in a nearby
corner and he picks up her friend, twenty three year
old Kelly Hammond. So this is what's interesting. This is
this I'm reading from the a part of that article.
But in the episode of Real Detective, when they come

(01:17:27):
upon this body, Bob Creed lifts up the you know,
the tarp that's over her whatever it's covering her, and
he goes, I know this girl.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
No, she lives in his neighborhood.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
Oh oh, and he watched her and her mom walk
by his house a couple times a day, so he
knows her. And that's again where he's like, this guy's
fucking with me. Yeah, this guy knows that I'm working
on this case. He knows these people.

Speaker 1 (01:17:55):
Well, I would think this is someone I know this
is someone who knows me right.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
The other thing too, it's smart of you to think
the other thing too is In this episode of Real Detective,
they do not mention that that either of these women
are prostitutes at all, sex workers, sorry at all, which
I think is really interesting because they basically the story
comes in as this girl her the girl that got away.

(01:18:22):
Her name is Ali white Cloud. And she comes in
and says, we are at a bar. This is how
they and I wonder if it's because that's how either
she wanted it presented, or that they were trying to
erase the stigma of sex corfinly, but it's Ali white
Cloud comes in and says, my friend and I were
at a bar and we met this guy and she
wanted to go home with him. I didn't want to.

(01:18:44):
He offered both of us a ride. I said, don't
go with him, and she did. And so she goes
to the police and gives a full description and describes
the van. So I don't whatever version of this is
the truth or whatever, I think it's interesting matter though
it doesn't matter, But I also think it's interesting, and

(01:19:06):
I like the fact that Real Detective just presents it
as it's a girl that almost got pulled into a
van and then came and.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
Spoke for her friend to the police with respect.

Speaker 2 (01:19:17):
Yeah. Yeah, So they give they do an APB with
the description of this guy and he's the creepiest look
it's the creepiest looking picture because he's wearing like sunglasses
and with.

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
A photograph or like a drawing. It's a drawing, it's
a police sketch.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
And the van he's driving is nineteen eighty nine Mitsubishi van,
which is one of the weirdest looking vans.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
It's got that flat front, is that the one?

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
Yes? Like it? Yes, Like when you're in the front
seat wherever you park, it's like you're right there.

Speaker 1 (01:19:48):
I totally know that one.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
Yeah. And it has a weird almost like a nautical
window in the back, like a little round window.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
Yeah, like a creepy van window. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
So okay, So now they have way more information about
this guy than they've had for since nineteen eighty six,
So it's a huge it's a huge lead. They put
out the APB, and so now the cops are looking
for that van. Oh. They also say, is there anything

(01:20:19):
else you can remember? And she says that when he
opened up the back, she remembers seeing a red sleeping bag,
and at most of these crime scenes they found animal
hair which turned out to be a cat tan cat
hair at every scene, and red nylon fibers which they

(01:20:45):
link to and match to the kind of nylon fibers
that they find on sleeping bags.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):
What a crazy thing.

Speaker 3 (01:20:51):
I feel like, there's so many people and this is
what he talks about and someone knows something where it's like,
that is one detail that you wouldn't why would you
bother mentioning that is actually really important to the case.

Speaker 1 (01:21:03):
So that's really interesting. I thought you were going to
say that that she said she saw a cat in
his vanage.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
Well, just it's close. It's the other right, the other thing.
But that's when you know they presented in the real
detective show, Like when she's giving all that information, when
she says that thing about a red sleeping bag, He's
just like, dang, this is the guy.

Speaker 1 (01:21:23):
I love it. So they put out all that information
and uh.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
Oh, so they basically from from all of the information
and the victims that they've had so far, the task
force knows this that all the victims are found raped, stabbed, asphyxiated,
nude posed. They all have ligature marks on their wrists, angles,
and neck. They have one set of shoe impressions. So

(01:21:51):
they know that he carries them to the scene debt
and leaves them there, and that he works alone. They
say that if he's married, his wife would work nights
because then he can just do Clearly, he can do
whatever he wants at night and he's not being questioned
about it or no one's suspicious of him. They never

(01:22:11):
find fingerprints at any of the scenes, but they consistently
find cat hair, and they consistently find those red nylon fibers.
Wo'd be more exciting if I had said that before
that the thing I just said than anyhow So, on
October thirtieth, nineteen ninety one, they see a man is
driving along Summer Hilt Drive and he sees what he

(01:22:35):
thinks is a mannequin.

Speaker 1 (01:22:36):
I'm a mannequin, you guy, ever, a fucking mannequin.

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
He goes up and finds that it's the dead body
of thirty five year old Delilah Zamoral Wallace, mother of five,
also known sex worker and drug addict. She's also Her
cause of death is asphyxiation, then two days before Christmas,
Eleanor Ojeda Kassarus's body is found near Victoria Avenue, which

(01:23:04):
is just down the street from the Riverside Police station.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):
She's thirty nine years old. She's been strangled and her
right breast is missing. Well, not the booby, I always say,
not the movies.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
So she was also had a wrap sheet for sex
work and drugs, and the cops are positive that he
placed her there too close to the police station, took
up with them. So the very last victim is thirty
one year old Katherine McDonald. She's found raped and murdered

(01:23:39):
in a field by a construction worker. There they find
a set of tire tracks and they find footprints that
match a pro wing tennis shoe. They know now he's rushing,
he's escalating because this is the sloppiest he's ever been,
so the us all of that. Then they go to

(01:24:02):
make a next known next of kin, you know, they
go to tell notification for the next skin.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
They go to her house.

Speaker 2 (01:24:12):
They find the front door open and the house is dark.
They walk through the house, guns drawn, and they finally
find Catherine's three year old daughter, who's been by herself
since her mother disappeared the night before, hiding downstairs.

Speaker 1 (01:24:28):
So sad, and it's the saddest part of the whole episode.

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
This little girl who was just hiding alone in a
house because her mom didn't come back.

Speaker 1 (01:24:36):
Her mom went, took the garbage out and disappeared. Oh
so she didn't even see anything. She's just like her
mom walked outside and never came back inside at night. Horrifying.

Speaker 2 (01:24:47):
Okay, so she was snatched, Yes she was, and which
he hadn't done that before. It was out in front
of her own house. So god, they have all together.
They had found five different types of tire prints at
these crime scenes. So Bob Creed decides he asks the

(01:25:08):
guide to check, is there one type of van that
could use all five of those.

Speaker 1 (01:25:15):
Types of tires?

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
And one type of van comes back, and it's a
nineteen eighty nine Minsubishi and it's this type of van.

Speaker 1 (01:25:24):
It's so weird looking.

Speaker 2 (01:25:25):
So on the night of January ninth, nineteen ninety two,
Officer Frank Orda is patrolling University Avenue, which is where
a lot of sex workers were known to walk, and
he sees that exact type of van, so he follows it.
Can you imagine seeing that, Yeah, there it is that
the fuck and it has expired tags, and so he

(01:25:47):
pulls it over and he talks to the driver a
little bit. He asks the driver to open up the
back of the van. The driver says, sure, no problem.
He opens it up. There's a red sleeping bag there,
and the office places him under arrest. Now they bring
him into the station and somebody immediately starts questioning him.
They don't wait for Bob Creed, who is the head

(01:26:10):
of this task force for like five fucking years. They
don't wait for him to come down to question him.
Just whoever was there. I don't know exactly how it happened.
So the guy they arrest immediately is like, I want
a lawyer. I'm not saying anything, son of man. So
Bob Creed doesn't even get to question him. Oh but
here's what they end up finding out that the guy,

(01:26:30):
the driver of this van is a man named Bill
suff He was born August twentieth, nineteen fifty, in Torrance, California.
According to his high school classmates, he was friendly, a
skillful musician, and he graduated eighty seventh in a class
of one hundred and forty four, So not a you know,
sounds like a c MINS student. His brothers were very troubled.

(01:26:54):
One of them was a drug addict, the other was
a pedophile. Oo stuff ended up living in Texas, and
there in nineteen seventy four, when he's twenty four years old,
he and his former wife were arrested and later convicted
for the beating death of.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
Their two year old daughter. Are you sucking kidding me?

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
He was there sentenced to seventy years in prison, but
he was paroled after serving ten years. Why no. His
wife served twenty months, but her conviition was overturned when
it was found that he was fully responsible for the
beating death of a two year old child.

Speaker 3 (01:27:34):
Can you imagine not only having your child beat to
death by her husband, but then getting sent to being
held responsible and sent like she's mourning in the most
painful way, and then she.

Speaker 2 (01:27:46):
Goes to jail, And in jail, you hurt your own kid.
If you're in jail for hurting your own kid, you're
like a pedophile in man's jail.

Speaker 1 (01:27:54):
Jesus. I mean they are like tortured.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
And so, yeah, she didn't and she's spent over a
year in prison as a baby killer. So So when
Bill suff is paroled, he goes back to southern California,
he gets out of Texas, and he then gets a job.
He's now forty one years old. He gets a job
as a stock clerk, and he is known to be

(01:28:23):
a writer of books. He likes to drive fancy cars.
He does community service work. He also likes to impersonate
police officers.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
Of course he does.

Speaker 2 (01:28:31):
His neighbors described him as a friendly nerd who was
always doing things to help people.

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
What the fuck?

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
Yeah, So basically, now Bob Creed is scrambling to find
evidence they can hold him on because they finally have
him in custody. But you know he's going to get
he's going to get out, and he's and more women
are going to die. So they look into his background.
They find out that he works for Riverside County Supply.

(01:28:59):
So he is a clerk at the supply company that
supplies desks and chairs for the Riverside Police Department. So
when they were putting together the task force and building
the task force, every time they would order a desk
or some chairs or a chalkboard, well, Bill Souff was

(01:29:23):
the guy that would come and deliver it straight into
the room where they were investigating his serial murders.

Speaker 1 (01:29:32):
I bet he enjoyed that so much.

Speaker 2 (01:29:35):
He not only enjoyed it, he knew exactly what they
were doing, So the first time they knew that they
had tire imprints, he changed the tires on his van
every time he would go in there because they were constantly.
At one point, they said some officers working on the
case asked him if they could use his phone and

(01:29:55):
made a phone call on his phone trying to track
something down for the murders he was committing. So he
was just this neutral face in the background that they
saw as like, oh, that's the delivery guy, that's the
clerk guy. But meanwhile he was all eyes and ears.
Every time he was in that room, He's looking at everything,

(01:30:17):
he was memorizing all of it. He knew exactly what
they were doing, and he knew who they.

Speaker 1 (01:30:21):
Were, Which is weird that he then didn't get rid
of the red sleeping bag.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
Kind of right, that must not have been a prominent
thing up on the board. But it's so amazing because
they in real detective they said it in really perfectly
where he's in the bat when like the first time
they have the task Force meeting. Bob Creed clears the
room and then starts telling everybody blah blah blah. Well,
Bill Souff is one of the people he asked to
leave the room. So he's in there like he's working

(01:30:49):
side by side with a like near the police. So
Bob Creed gets a search warrant for Bill Seff's house,
and when he arrived there, he's surprised to meet Bill
Suff's eighteen year old white Oh god, so this is
where it all comes together. She tells the detective she

(01:31:10):
works nights. He's standing in their kitchen. She offers to
make coffee. She's like, I need coffee because I'm so
tired because I was up all night. He's like, oh,
you work nights. A tan cat runs through the room.
He looks over and sees a pair of prowing tennis
shoes over in the corner where all the shoes are
by the back door. So when he's looking out the window,

(01:31:31):
he sees a truck bed that's filled with tires, and
he's like, what's up with the tires And she's like, oh,
he's always out there changing the tires on that van.
So he was changing the tires anytime he would see
them get a tire imprint, he would change the tires
on the van. Then the kicker is he looks at

(01:31:52):
the lamp that's hanging over the kitchen table, tips it
up and sees it's exactly the same kind of light
bulb that was left inside his victim.

Speaker 1 (01:32:01):
Foh, and he's like, this is we're here.

Speaker 2 (01:32:04):
So he essentially they arrest him, they get him. He
has tried and convicted for twelve counts of first degree
murder and one count of attempted murder. The jury deliberated
for ten minutes. Oh my god, and they came back.

Speaker 1 (01:32:17):
They gave him the death penalty.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
He's he's still on death row in San Quentin to
this day, and the police believe he is responsible for
twenty two murders, if not more, in Riverside County.

Speaker 3 (01:32:30):
I wonder what, you know, he was gone for those
two years. I wonder where he went and what happened?
Yeah time you mean where there was no bodies found?

Speaker 2 (01:32:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:32:38):
Or yeah, there was no bodies found for two years? Yeah,
because that's a long time, and he usually it just
goes faster and faster. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
And Bob Creed, who I have to say, is just
like one of those I feel like detectives are those
They're like all the good cops become detectives. It's like
the ones that are on the street that are good
at it and they're smart and the hair. Yeah, and
they get promoted and they become detectives. And he so
clearly was one of those people that treated these women

(01:33:06):
like his neighbors and his friends. And when he talks
about going to talk to Kelly Hammond's mother, it's like
a big part of that episode where he's like, we
know these people, we have to tell them, we have
to now change their life for the worst by us
being there and being like, your daughter is dead. He eventually,
Detective Bob Creed eventually became the head of Major Crimes,

(01:33:27):
the major Crimes unit in Riverside. Wow. Yeah, and that's
the Riverside serial killer. Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:33:35):
I was fucking crazy and I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (01:33:39):
Good job, dude, thanks, I know I had no idea either,
Like Riverside is close by, and I've never heard of.

Speaker 1 (01:33:46):
That guy either.

Speaker 3 (01:33:46):
It's so funny, like the way you find these murders. Now,
I just put in the weirdest searches and you still
don't know anything. I know what's going on.

Speaker 1 (01:33:56):
Also, I do find it fascinating, like.

Speaker 2 (01:33:59):
There's they know almost nothing about this guy's childhood, which
I would love to know because obviously it was insanely
fucked up. If his two brothers are insanely fucked up
and he is the worst of all of them, I go,
I'd love to know what kind of evil and insane
parents they had and what that situation was. But I
really love that show for how much it really shows.

(01:34:22):
It's like this side that you never get to hear,
which is these detectives, and like the experience that they
go through and the years sometimes that they spend trying
to find these killers.

Speaker 1 (01:34:32):
It's just it's so insane.

Speaker 2 (01:34:35):
There's there's the one on the killer that you did
the guy, Oh yeah, Ben Mendelssohn, No, his last name
is Ben something? Oh uh child bar Jonah, Yes, yes, yes,
Well that wasn't even what I was saying, and you
knew what I was saying.

Speaker 1 (01:34:51):
I'm so shocked that I knew that.

Speaker 3 (01:34:53):
And what I like about that show too is that
it gives you little glimpses into the PTSD that you
know they fucking have, and so They're not trying to
be like, this is what happened.

Speaker 1 (01:35:01):
It's like, are you the one? I the one I did?
He starts crying, Yes. No, they suffer terribly.

Speaker 2 (01:35:08):
I mean Jesus, like that guy having to it was
like a child killer that had multiple victims. Yeah, and
every story was horrible, and that one is especially great
because the way he he just the way he eventually
finds him is he starts walking the path that those
children were taking to school and he finds Barjonas standing

(01:35:29):
in a security guard outfit at the end of one
of those alleys.

Speaker 3 (01:35:32):
This is why you make them move their finger from
the photo. That's right, That's why if I can do it,
that's exactly right. If someone knocks on your door, if
you get pulled over and they're holding up a badge,
you fucking call that number into the police department and
make sure it's real before you Yeah, I guess if you're.

Speaker 2 (01:35:49):
On a rural area, if you're alone in the house,
now you're finding reasons to say rural.

Speaker 1 (01:35:55):
God damn it, I am. You're right rural. You can
say farmland. You're in farmland, out in the country, out
in the country. Do not you don't have to. You
don't have to.

Speaker 2 (01:36:07):
Well, you get to check first, it's your right. And like,
I'll tell you what. Those FBI agents flipped that. The
one guy flipped open his quiet friend behind him. I
was like, what are you doing? I kind of looked
like they were coming for us to go away a
little bit. But the you don't look at the ID
when someone flips a thing like that at you. You

(01:36:27):
look at the badge. You look at the thing where
you're like, oh, this is just a real cop, and
you get all caught up in the kind of like
the gold badge part.

Speaker 1 (01:36:35):
I wonder if you're allowed to say, hand me that
and I want to look at it. What's your name,
what's your this? What's your that?

Speaker 2 (01:36:40):
Well, a real cop would give it to you. Yeah,
what would they have to lose? Yeah, totally. I mean
they would want you to believe they were a cop.
It's why they're showing it to you.

Speaker 1 (01:36:49):
Listen, hey, be cautious. Instead of everyone listening is like
we are. Yeah, you've already taught us that. We know
we did that before.

Speaker 2 (01:37:01):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:37:02):
That's all on this podcast is just warning you and
scaring you and giving you anxiety. It's not telling you
how to get rid of your anxiety.

Speaker 1 (01:37:09):
What's a positive thing from this week? I fucking totally
knew it at some point and I forgot it. What's yours?

Speaker 2 (01:37:18):
I would just say that this my this past birthday
was like one of the best birthdays I've ever had,
because I'm at the age now where like, I honestly
don't care about birthday. So the last couple have been
super low key, if not totally doing nothing. You didn't
even fucking we were recording that day and you didn't
tell me. I know, I mean, I didn't remember, well,

(01:37:40):
but why would you. I mean that you should have
told me, but you didn't care, so you don't. Yeah,
but that was in my mind. I was like, it
doesn't matter and I don't care. But it's actually not
true because you well, first of all, so many people
because of your tweet, responded to the lovely tweet you
sent to me about my birthday. But there were just
so many nice things, and not just people the list

(01:38:04):
of the podcast, but then like my actual friends knew
and said lovely things. And it's like, when you actually
give people a chance to do that, if they.

Speaker 1 (01:38:12):
Want to, then they do.

Speaker 2 (01:38:14):
And it's really nice and it makes them feel good too. Yeah, exactly,
It's just it was just lovely and we had that
fun dinner and watching DC.

Speaker 1 (01:38:22):
Yeah that was so nice. Like what if I just
threw up for no reason. It was just like a
really lovely.

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):
Kind of redefining birthday experience.

Speaker 1 (01:38:35):
I love that. Yeah, it was nice.

Speaker 3 (01:38:37):
Happy birthday, Thanks, congratulations, thanks so much to go. Something
I love or I'm happy about is, uh, when Stephen
Baby sits the cats when we go out of town.
It just makes me so happy because I know they
love him and they like hanging out with him. And
I know this because Stephen. The first couple of days
of us being gone, Stephen Baby's out them and send

(01:38:58):
me photos constantly, and I could tell they were happy
and they don't run away when he comes in. And
then my dad was going to stay at our place
for the rest of the weekend, and so Stephen left
and when my dad, who doesn't like cats, came in
the door, he said, oh, Elvis came out at first
and then ran away immediately, and I think he thought
my dad was Stephen and got excited because the guy

(01:39:19):
who gives them all the cookies was there, and then
realized it was my dad run away. So thanks Stephen.
It means a lot to me that to have someone
there who I really loves my cats.

Speaker 4 (01:39:31):
Yeah, I mean, I just have the best time. And
like I've always told you that, like I'll come over here.
You're always like you and Vince always like come do
some work, hang out for a while, and then I
end up just hanging.

Speaker 1 (01:39:40):
Out with the cats.

Speaker 4 (01:39:42):
Get anything done. It's just pictures of Elvis, good pets. Yeah,
I love It's a good time.

Speaker 1 (01:39:47):
You have my Instagram password for the cats too, so
I'm like, fucking go for it. It's great. Thank you,
So thanks for doing that.

Speaker 3 (01:39:54):
And yes I pay him. Don't worry him on. You
get paid in loving in my cats being nice to you. Yeah,
but you guys, thanks for listening. Yeah, we really appreciate it.
And you guys are this is the best. I can't
this is the best.

Speaker 1 (01:40:09):
It's pretty nice. It is. Yeah, I like it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:11):
All right, Well you guys stay suxy and don't get murdered.
Elvis you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 (01:40:20):
Okay, Bye bye