Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 9: Color Me Nine - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Nay, Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.
This is episode nine.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
This is our new weekly bonus episode where we go
back to the early days, the early halcyon days of
my favorite murder and comment on the way we were.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
We were young, we were innocent, we were free. It
was so twenty sixteen. We're going to reflect on all
the things that have changed, give you case updates, and basically,
you know, we'll treat this like a high school yearbook,
but of podcasts, like a high school reunion yearbook. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, and so it's time to rewind too. Episode nine
called color Me nine. That's a good one from Friday,
March twenty fifth, twenty sixteen.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
So get your nosy neighbor and your meanest teacher from
high school and your favorite mail carrier and invite them
all to this party because now we all get to
be Day one listeners. But also shout out to real
Day one listeners because we love you and you are
there first.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
I know, we know. So let's listen to the intro
of episode nine, where we discussed the podcasts we're listening
to the status of our rip Facebook.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Group RIP and more. Fifteen hundred people in the Facebook
group is so precious. That's a lot of people. It
was for a beginning, it was very shocking. I think,
to us, this is going to be a confession that
I've never confessed to you. I probably told you at
the time, but nobody else. When the Facebook page was

(01:40):
that small, I'd get up in the morning to kind
of look at what was happening, and if people posted
lame memes, I would delete them.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Karen killed Garaf did I make you a moderator?

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah? I was on there. Okay, I was on there.
And because it turned into this thing where it was
like people were they were just lame. So it was
like some people would post stuff that was amazing, great
and really funny. What would be on the chopping block. Well,
if the same meme got posted over and over again,
I was just like, this has been done and it's
from three days ago.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
It's like when people tag you in the same sinkhole
nowaday over and over again, You're like, I've seen it.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
I swear we've seen it. We've seen it. But also
I think those memes that looked like they were from
that one app where it was the white block letters
and it was just something where I was just like,
all right, we need the quality to be a little
bit higher here. Okay, she wanted to clean it up
a little bit. I really did see it as my
own Facebook page back then, or I'm like, I don't
want this shit on my Facebook page. But then people
would come on and be like, who's deleting my thing?

(02:37):
And you know, oh crazy.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
They call it a dirty delete and they get so
fucking mad, and it's like, guys, read the room aka
the Facebook page.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
It's already there. Also, but also, what a fun confession.
I don't like that. If you were mad because you
got dirty deleted, it was me. That's amazing. I'm so
glad I finally know that. Isn't this the kind of
Easter egg people are looking for in these rewind episodes,
I think, so you can just see our numbers go.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Also in this episode, we talk about the fact that
the Facebook group suggested a drinking game, maybe the first
to my favorite murder drinking game of many, because there's
been more. It's whenever I gasp or say holy shit,
you take a shot, and when you sing a regular
word in conversation, which I so I want you to
do it, but it's not going to be natural.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
If you do it, I'll try to I'll try to
fold one in in this episode.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
I would love that because I just, yeah, I don't
want to like make put you on the spot, because
when you do it, it's just very like unexpected.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
You know. I literally just did it in a meeting
we were in. I don't remember. Yeah, I remember when
I said thank you to our fucked up families for
letting us make stuff. Well we're stressed. Uh, yes, it's
something that that was it. That's an example. See, it's
not as good. It's not just build it up. Then
you actually do it. Surprise me. Murder, murder, murder, Oh

(04:00):
you might have been then you should look up synonyms
for murder. Okay for this podcast. Okay, oh, for the
titles of the podcast. No, no, just in general, so
we don't say that word as much.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
Oh right, yeah, being taken out violently, assassinations, assassinations. What
are we gonna name this episode? Do you think it's
number nine? Yeah? Nine non lives.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
It's pretty much how this goes, SPITBALLI. It doesn't get
better after that. Welcome everybody to my favorite murder. Hi,
that's Georgia Heart's start, that's Karen kil Gariff. I said
it like I wasn't sure.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
I know that's George Georgia, Georgia Georgia right, Georgia Hards.
The worst is when someone misspells your name in a
professional setting when they should absolutely spell your name correctly. Yes, right,
Karen kil Garff with a complicated last name.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yes. Uh, That's happened to me many times also and
when Also the worst is when people say your last
name and who you've known for years and you realize
that they always thought it was Kilgaris kill Giraff or
kill Garraf, where you're like, well, I wish you knew
me more. I know Hard Stock, What the fuck?

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Hard and Stark are two very simple words, and yet
somehow next to each other, people freak the fuck out.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
People freak out. Although I do do that thing where
when I see somebody that I know for sure, uh,
like if I ran into Dustin Are, I would in
my mind I'd go hi, Dustin. And when I would
go to say it, what if I'm wrong? Yes, Oh,
they gotta do that to you.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Except when I see someone I for sure know, like Dustin,
I'll scream their name in front of them, because I'm
so excited that I know them, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Like you want the credit?

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, because normally I'm like, I know who you are. Yeah,
but I don't think I do.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
And I'm the kind of person if I mess it
up and the person's like, don't worry about it, I
won't stop talking about it, right, or worrying about it
right they go. People call me Ali sometimes and I'm like,
it's okay, it's not okay, it's okay, but it's not. Well.
I mean, you should at least get one letter right,
totals letter totally is all I asked. I'll let you

(06:11):
have that. We're killing your name too, Oh me too.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
I find it intimidates people. Yeah, we both have kind
of like hardcore badass last name.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
You have a like Yours is reminiscent of Charles Starkweather,
the famous spree killer. Sure that we're not talking about
on this episode, but that.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
We okay, we know I don't talk about up top
before we start our favorite murders, before we start this bullshit.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, is someone knows something the podcast? Yes? Are you?
I texted you the other day? I know you were driving. No,
I was in New York I was flying. Oh nice, yeah,
and I was like, she gotta listen to this yep,
And I did all of them all. Well, there were
only three, right, there's a new one. Oh is there really? Yeah,
I'll listen to my driving. So this is I didn't

(06:55):
realize it.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
I want to start a listening but it's like it's
in the entire season of this podcast is about one topic. Yeah,
should I read the description? Sure, because it's good. It's
fucking great. On June twelfth, nineteen seventy two, five year
old Adrian McNaughton wandered away from his family at a
lake in eastern Ontario and disappeared without a trace. In
season one, If Someone Knows Something hosts David Ridge Riggin,
who grew up in the area, goes back and search

(07:17):
for answers. And I had heard of this case and
I had never cared because I was like, I got
eaten by bears, clearly.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
But no, the more he goes into it, like, that's
what I like about it is you make up a thing.
You hear facts from him, and then you go, oh,
it's that guy or it's this yeah, and then he
keeps laying down hard facts that he goes out and
looks at himself. Yeah. So there's recordings of him walking
in the woods testing the echo, talking to people who
have never talked to anybody about it, right, who were they?

Speaker 2 (07:44):
There was one guy who was there that when he
wandered away, and police had never spoken to him about
it ever.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
Spoken. It's pretty It's a pretty great show. I hope
it stays that way. So good, and I find sometimes
I get a little bit impatient, and this is sexist
of me, but when the boys get a little wistful
and poetic about their own thoughts and feelings about things,
mm hmmm, where I'm just like, uh.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Huh, that's the opposite of sexist, and I love it
because that's always sexist against women, fucking getting being poetic
about shite.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
True, But I mean, like, I just have that thing where, yeah,
I just don't want anyone to be precious really. But
then I find it slightly more sickening if it's a man,
because because I've bought into our cultural stereotypes and norms.
But when this guy does it, I buy it. I
feel like he's being sincere. I don't think it's self
now conscious or self service.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
He seems so sincere that it's great and it's clear
that he's written out everything he's saying. It's it's more
of a story he's telling, and the writing is good,
and he tells the story in not a boring way
like some of the other true crime podcasts. To the
music is a little dramatic at times, and the soundtracks,
the sound is a little dramatic.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
But he's Canadian. But if they have a sincerity, oh
totally that they don't see that here in America is
almost not allowed, right, and I liked I like to
indulge in that Canadian man every once in a while.
I love this podcast. It's our new the Simpsons.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
What we talk about at the beginning of every episode,
which of course means the people versus A J.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
Simpsons, not O J Simpsons. As many O J. Simpsons
as it takes to discuss it. Although the last episode,
I have to say, the one about the jury was
that's so I feel. I loved it. You did, you
didn't like it? I mean I loved knowing I didn't
know any of that.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
I didn't either, But what a fucking bummer to be
stuck in a hotel and you can't speak to anyone
for months, eight months.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
And then they didn't treat them. Well, No, no, it
was well, it was. It was good in that it
was kind of riveting, but it was riveting in it
almost like in a uh telenovella way. Yeah, ridiculously dramatic.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
It kind of took us off the track that we
were already on. Without the episodes, it felt like we
were all were moving forward and this one didn't really
feel like I was moving forward.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
No, but the other thing, I like, it felt very different. Yeah.
But I also Marshall Clark and her new hair. She
looks hot, right, she looks great in that hair. And
also she was so badass this one. There was no
she didn't do any like rim tears on the rim,
her eyes are putting her head in her hands.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
She told that she told what is Johnny Crockman to
go to the playground or something, or what was it
that daycare.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
Go to daycare because this is the smoker's lung.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, And I was like, Okay, if that really happened,
which it probably didn't, I'm so happy about I.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Feel like you could have it could have. I mean,
by that point, she's so pissed, so many things like
DNA evidence got completely I mean, I feel like today
that wouldn't happen. No one knew what it was. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
What I'm loving more than anything is David Swimmer's character,
like realizing his friend is a fucking murderer and him apologizing.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
To his wife.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yes, that his defend Yeah, he's defending a man who
murdered her best friend.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, what a bummer. It's terrible. No, I mean I
wonder if he could quit the trial, would would he
not die of cancer when you're not died of cancer?

Speaker 2 (11:03):
And would have oj gotten off probably not? Oh oh
you mean during it?

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Sorry? Yes, yeah, I see what you Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
I mean no, that would have been bad news exactly.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
So maybe that should have been his non statement statement
that he's like, I can't support this anymore.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah. Except for that, then you're basically choosing how a
person's life is going to go.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, but defending him, you're doing the same thing, or
you're trying to, at least George.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
It's so heavy.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
There's a lot of decisions in life that one has
to make, and it's not until they make a dramatic
reenactment TV show twenty years later about it that you
realize the decision she should have made.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yeah, I mean, please live your life like you're going
to be re enacted in thirty years. And do you
want someone as high quality as Sarah Paulson to portray you? Yeah?
Or do you need to live your life like Sarah
Paulson could be? You're you a quiet nobility right a
single tear? Or do you want John fucking Travolta being

(12:05):
the most flamboyant incredible character since Behind the Candelabra and
maybe even better so? But I don't mind it like
I love it. It doesn't bring me out of it.
I never think of John Travolta. I believe him. I
I don't know if Robert shapiroz like that.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
I have to assume he's somewhat like that in personal situations.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
And I love it. I'd like to sing a tune
of praise for the very unsung. Nathan Lane is.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
Flee Babs, Nathan Lane is f the base and Yeah,
Nathan Lane, who knew he'd be in this?

Speaker 1 (12:37):
I got so excited. Yeah, he's almost unrecognizable, not only
because of his wig, but because he really I just
believe it's that guy.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
I did too, and flee Bailey is such a noble
character that it had to be played by someone excellent,
and Nathan Lane is a beloved actor perfect for that role.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Right. Oh, guys, we are not watching it. We've ruined it.
If you're not.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
Watching it, you've ruined yourself. You've ruined it for yourself.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
There's nothing more we can ruin in your life. How's
it going everything else? All right? Oh yeah, everything's good.
I'm not murdered yet.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
I'm fucking The Facebook group is like near and dear
to my heart at this point.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
The Facebook book group is making me regret leaving Facebook.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
If you want to sign up a fake account, fake name,
I will not out you. But it is such a
It is such a pleasing place to go when I
have insomnia and just talk to Like everyone is so
fucking cool. I comment and I post things and I
read everyone's post and it's just like really fun. And
the discussions we get into and the comments people make.

(13:42):
Everyone's nice. There hasn't been anything racist or mean yet.
I haven't had to kick one person out, which is
like shocking for Facebook.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
I thought we were really big in the racist community.
Damn it, well we are. They just keep it quiet.
Oh yeah, they behave appropriately.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, and there's fifth this is Our Night episode and
there's already fifteen hundred people in the Facebook group.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah you guys, thank you.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
It turns out everyone needed a place to talk about murder.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, it is fascinating. Yeah, it truly is. We Actually
somebody at work today started talking about eight h h. Holmes. Yeah. Literally,
in my head, I had to say, like a teacher,
don't say anything, Karen, let her tell her story. Don't
at all. I like had to post my lips together
because all I wanted to do is like, yeah, just jump.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Don't you want to be like murder is mine? Like
I'm the one who talks. You don't get to talk
about murder. I talk about murder.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
I think though that's a that's kind of a good
lesson just in general, because I think I've been that
way about more than murder all my life. I'm gonna
know a thing not to be like. But it's like,
if someone brings it up themselves, let them tell the story,
let them have it you.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Murder doesn't belong to you, or whatever it is doesn't
belong I'm this I'm not telling you, I'm telling myself.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
This is I totally agree. Well, that wasn't to me.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
No, that was to me in any conversation, oh mm hmmmm,
not oh yeah, did you know that?

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah? You know? Or so hard.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
And then when you're like, oh well and you like
bring up something that compares to it, you just sound
like an asshole, unless you're you're sincerely wanting to bring
up another murder instead of saying like, well, this is
how much I know about it, which I do all
the time.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yes, this podcast could also go into the areas of etiquette,
general etiquette, well I do.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
It in this podcast too, of not wanting to speak
over you like I just did.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
No, but it's it's fine with me. Okay, wow, I
don't you.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
And I okay, Well, not wanting to speak over you
also not wanting to be like, yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
No, I know that murder you're about to talk about,
but it delights me when you do that. I think
it's hilarious.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
There was one you had that I kept trying to
add to and kept telling myself to shut the fuck
up in my head.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Because it was so obnoxious. But it's hard for me.
It's hard when you read a thing by yourself and
you're like, there is a man in Chicago during the
World's Fair that built I basically built a murder hotel,
and I'm just finding out now. And I read it
with what I imagine other people read like books when
they go to college. I read it with the same

(16:03):
enthusiasm and kind of like absorption. So then when somebody
else starts talking about it, I want them to know
that I know, like, I want them to know to
know I guess, yeah, yeah like that. I I want
to like scream and grab each other's shoulders. I want
that feeling with people I don't know them.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
I will you too, And I want them to know
that I'm on the level with them and we can
have this conversation instead of like and also like you're
going to keep telling me about it, and then you're
going to find out that I have a true crime
podcast and you're like, why didn't you say anything that
you knew about this? Especially really the book The Devil
in the White City. Yes, that's what we were talking.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
Did you read that? But yeah, that's it, that's what
we I had to wait till she was done and
then kind of like take a beat. I was really
using it as like an exercise, and then someone goes
I think they're making a movie. I think there was
a book, and then I was like, don't the second
the words out of the mount Then I was like,
that's right, it's called devil.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
If I were the girl that brought it up, i'd
been like, wait, so this whole time, you've been letting
me mansplain something to you and you knew about it.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
But also sometimes mansplaining is just talking. Sometimes we sometimes
people get to talk to us knowing something and we
can accept that. Yeah, and we don't have to know.
We don't have to tell them, but I know you
don't have to I know everything. Yeah, we can be
not in the position of victim or somebody that's being oppressed.
You can assume that person doesn't have the power to

(17:26):
oppress you and you're just being polite and letting them,
letting them be a know it all is an okay
thing to do. But then they're never going to get
to know you because you did because you didn't tell
them that you know shit. That's very true. But I'm
also this is a work situation where I can't I
have to let my personality out bit by bit because
it's a lot.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
You can't scream in someone's face. Yes, I love murder.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
As my mom used to say, you're too much, and
she meant it very literally. And that's why we have
a true crime podcast, Murder. We could Yeah, this podcast
could literally go for four hours. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
That's why we're friends is because the first time we
actually hung out on our ound, we had a five
hour lunch.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, we did, just talking and the whole time I
kept thinking, am I the only one that wants to
stay right? Right? But we it was clear that we
were both voluntarily eating lunch for five hour?

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, and the conversation flowed. It wasn't one sided, that's right,
I think.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
I think? Do you speaking of one? I have our doubts.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
We are good, we are great. Anxiety is real speaking
of one sided and talking about the thing. Yes, do
you want to do your favorite murderer? I think you're first.
Do you want me to go first?

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah? Okay, we're back here. We are in good old
twenty twenty four. This is us now, that was us then?
How different is it? We're in a studio right now.
First of all, my god, this sound quality in here
is incredible, The sound quality, the air temperature, yeah, the like,

(19:00):
visual the visuals. I mean, I was a cute apartment. You,
I don't admit no, No, your apartment was great and
the smells were amazing. But I do love this shade
of green. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, two cats in a one bedroom apartment. I'll really
really do something about the odor of.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
The I think that Elvis could feel the energy that
was building around us, and he was just like, guys,
this is so exciting. I had to shit right here
in the room with you. My favorite thing was you
would get up and be like, oh my god, I
have to take care of this right now. It just
be like, yeah, I don't care. You could shoot like
we would be recording and be like in the episode

(19:36):
and you'll be like, oh my god, I have to
do this right now. Like clearly you were just so embarrassed.
Embarrassed where it's like it's a cat, they do it
all the time.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, but Elvis was particularly obdiferous when it came to it,
Like he was just so male Siamese that it was
like he's not just going to take a shit, He's
going to take a shit that fucking ruins the.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Atmosphere, ruins the vibe. Also, he was eighty two belief
when we were recording those eighty two years old. Oh,
my sweep boy, he was on STATNS, he was on cholesterol, medicine, medication,
he was highly medicated. My good boy. All right, so
let's go into your story, Karen.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
You are covering the Exorcist serial killer because our theme
is hiding in playing sight.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yes, which is great. That's a good theme. Yeah. This
is one of my favorite true crime stories because it's
so creepy and sinister, and it's one of those things
of like, oh, this guy in this scene from this
movie actually and it unravels into like a whole other
movie and it's just it's crazy, it's chilling.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
And then at the end, I mean, let's we'll talk
about it after, but like they like let him out
of prison after a while. Yeah, it's one of those.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
All right, let's listen.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Okay, you told me this week's theme in a way
that I already knew that you knew what you were doing.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yes, I read. I what they call reverse engineered this
week's theme because I had to do this story because
one of our Now I'm afraid I guess i'll say
his first name and last initial, because one of our
listeners DMed Us, which I adore. He dm us like
so as not too embarrassed, I think, but he was like,
how could you have talked about the Exorcist and not

(21:29):
talked about this and sent me a link and all
this stuff, And I wrote back in all caps, holy shit,
how did I miss this? So that's where mine started.
So then when I talked to Georgia, I was like,
can this week's be like hiding a plane sight or
murdered that like they were right there the whole time?
Okay kind of thing because in the Exorcist, one of

(21:52):
the biggest stories, and I swear I looked at over
five websites about my Exorcist first movie set that, which
was my thing last week if you didn't hear it.
But Brian b our listener sent us to stem because
there was a guy in the Exorcist and he was
the guy that played the radiologist Something's wrong with my

(22:16):
mouth or radiologists assistant in the scene we talked about
that I said, was so creepy where she was in
that crazy machine getting like this MRI. The guy that
plays the assistant in that scene turned out to be
a serial killer. No, yes, like a serial killer, serial killer,
a legit six victim straight up New York in the

(22:39):
seventies serial killer.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
That's just reminded me of something when I gasped, is
that there is a thread on the Facebook group that
every time I say, holy shit, you had to take
a shot, or when I say no, or when I
got like there's certain things, and then when you say
when you sing a word like a thing like yes
it is, I'm just like a shot. It's pretty hilarious.

(23:01):
It's very lighthearted. It's not in the mean way at all.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
No, no, all, yeah, please. But now I don't want to
be self conscious about it and do it all the
time because I love when people are so drunk they
fall up their own couch. All right, So I went
Ryan B sent us this this very tasteful uh DM
about a huge thing I missed, and I'm so bummed.

(23:25):
Don't beat yourself up. I won't, I won't entirely, but
talk about like wanting to be an expert and dropping
the ball. Well, I'm on.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
In the first five websites that came up, they didn't
mention this.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
They didn't, they didn't, so nobody did. Would but yeah,
maybe it is like specialized knowledge or something. Maybe I
just have to go to better websites first, or or
you have to.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
I've been googling weird shit, like like the weird, the weird,
not just like so and so murder. I've been googling
like deep down weird shit. Have you gone dark Web?
I wish I could. I don't know how to go
dark web, but I really don't want.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Okay, So here's the here's the research part, and uh,
I hope I do this justice, but I'm not going
to because I basically did only part of my homework.
But essentially this is this is it in a nutshell.
I'm excited. The guy's name was Paul Bateson and he
was in real life a thirty eight year old X
ray tech at NYU Medcenter where they shot that scene. Oh,

(24:22):
it's called an arteriogram, is what she was getting in
that scene, which is like a crazy machine that like
it's like a looks like a with not a centrifuge,
but like the thing that spins you in all those
different direction is very upsetting and weird noises. So I
guess when they probably when they went to like she
loo go location scout, he was there. They cast him

(24:42):
because he already worked there and knew how to work
the machine. Legit already right. And what I love is
the link that Brian b sent us, the picture that
comes up with this article. He looks so creepy. He
looks like any dude in the seventies, like kind of forward,
his hairs going forward, kind of sandy block goateee. But
his eyes are like his eyes are drooping, like they're melting.

(25:05):
So like you were like that, what a great casting
job that they hired this actor, and it's like, nope,
it's he's really this is what he looks like and
that's why they hired him from this creepy movie. Yeah,
And I don't know, I don't know if I mean,
that's a little woo woo to think that, like his
secret life was the reason that scene was so creepy.
I actually don't. Oh, this was before so he went.
These murders happened later in the seventies, so I think

(25:29):
he did that first. Okay, oh no, sorry, the murder
started in nineteen seventy three, so that was so he
was like on camera having a had murdered someone. I think,
so I should. I would have to look up the
movie came out in seventy three and was I'm the
one that did this.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
No, your guys pretend like you know what you're talking about.
I'm pretty sure I know what I were talking about.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Just own it. Yeah, I think he murdered. He must
have murdered before directly. I think he was doing it
during and then ended up getting after because it was
over a period of time. So essentially what happened is
so these people started going missing or there was like
murder scene. So the first one was a man named

(26:11):
Ronald Cabo. He lived in the West Village and he
was stabbed to death on his sofa and then his
apartment was set on fire.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
He's twenty nine years old. Some gonna take a shot.
Holy shit, right because she's so young.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah. And then four days later, so they just think
that's standard murder. In New York City in nineteen seventy three,
four days later, a man named Donald mcnivin, who was
forty years old, and a guy named John P. W. Beardsley,
aged fifty three, were both found in Donald's apartment on
Verick Street. They both lived in the building, but they

(26:44):
were in Donald's apartment, and again the apartment had been
set on fire. And Beardsley was actually on the social
register in New York and Philadelphia, so he was like
some fancy he had been a Harvard grad and they
had no idea. They just looked another like another bad
stabbing murder. I think Beardsley was the one stabbed in

(27:07):
mcnibbin mcnibvin was bludgeoned. Did they it was four days later?
Four days later? Did they connect the two? Immediately? I went,
how do you not connect to stabbing and fires? Well
maybe they they might have like noted it, but he's
in the seventies. In New York City, I think there's several
murders a.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
Day and they're not sharing precinct to precinct right, murders right.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Two weeks later, the body of Robin Barrero was found
floating in the Hudson River. He had been missing for
five weeks and he was still in a leather jacket.
He was really decomposed, but he had a leather jacket on.
And then nine days after that, two gay men were murdered.

(27:56):
They I think they think they were roommates and their dog,
their pet poodles. Yes, and from the stuff that was
in the apartment at that murder is when they started
putting together this is these are all people who have
something to do with the leather community. Okay, I was
gonna say that that would make sense. Yeah, the leather
jacket started. And in that first guy, Robert Barrero or sorry,

(28:18):
Ronald Cabo, the picture that they have up of him
is really young and he's wearing a leather jacket. So
I'm sure at the time it was like, oh, that's
just fashion choice whatever. But then person after person they're
probably finding different things. And so by the end one
of the jackets, they got the tag and they found
it was long to a store in the West Village

(28:39):
that was completely an S and M store SNM Clothing
and supply. That's sort of like a leather gay gay boys, yes, going,
And so that's when they start to realize, oh, this
is gay. But once again, it's just like the Freeway
murders in LA when it's a gay community thing, or
any distant distant France when it's prostitutes. Totally, the cops

(29:01):
are like em who cares, No one cares, and we're
not going to get pressure from city hall.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
I mean, I'm sure they could if it's someone in
the community, and everyone is who's being killed is in
that community. You talk to the rest of the people
in the community and they're like, this guy's creepy and
has gone home with all of these men.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
It's pretty simple. No, it's not. I mean, I'm sure
it's not that simple, but it seems like simple. But
it's the thing of what people decide to valuate. Right.
So people, if the people in power don't value your
life or you're what you do in the community, if
they actually think you're gross or bad or judge you morally,
then they won't try to help you, or they won't

(29:39):
feel any you know, burning desire to find your killer.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well, they say, I mean, this is what they say,
and I've totally so. They say, you're living a high
risk lifestyle already. Are you living a high high risk lifestyle? Well,
then are you a prostitute? Are you a drug addict?
Are you living, you know, in a gay community where
you're around a lot of strange men a lot? Yeah,

(30:03):
that's a high risk lifestyle and they care less about you. Yeah,
because they think you can living a high risk lifestyle
means you kind of deserved it. It's you brought it
on your side. I'm not saying I'm not saying I
think that.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
But of course not. But it's an excuse. I'm sure
when cops see you know, it's New York City in
the seventies, they saw probably twenty murders a day. Yeah,
so you're trying to somehow prioritize these things were you
can't put your heart and soul into every single thing
that comes across your debt totally. So, but I'm sure
it got very easy to start marginalizing the deaths of

(30:33):
these people or to not put things, you know, things together. Yeah.
So anyway, body parts start washing up on the shore
of the Hudson River. So there's like apparently there's a
gay cruising spot by the Hudson River piers, and that's
where different body parts wrapped in garbage bags start showing up.
And so they putting all this together. They started calling

(30:59):
the whole case in the Bagh killer wow. And so
you can tell by that, you know, obviously there's not
a lot of sensitivity back then anyway, but that's basically
their attitude about all the stuff that's going on. So
then a drag performer, they said drug performer in this article.

(31:19):
But let's call her a drag queen. I bet she
was a queen. Yeah. And her name was Tony Lee
and she was strangled in her apartment in the West
Village and the Village Voice wrote a big article about it.
Because she was famous, a lot of people knew her,
and that's when they started to really put together. They
knew for a fact that after hours and after like
the normal bars, she would go to leather bars. And

(31:40):
so that's when they, you know, were like, oh, we
think we really were onto something with this, like leather theory.
And then a man named Addison Verel, who was thirty
six and he was the film critic for Variety magazine.
He was found stabbed and bludgeoned, stabbed and bludgeoned with
a cast iron skillet in his apartment. And somewhere there

(32:00):
all of them are in their own apartments, meaning that
this person was allowed to come in. Yes, that's right.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
That's what scares me the most, is like, yeah, I
know this person, I see him around my scene.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah, it's pick up stuff. It's like it's they're going
to sex bars or going to leather bars there or
just you know, the seventies. This is like the looking
for mister goodbar totally where everybody was like it was
post hippie shit where people are like, yeah, I'm sexually liberated.
It's pre pre AIDS epidemic. Yeah, where so it's kind
of like, yeah, everybody wants to have sex, let's do

(32:32):
this thing. Yeah, there's a lot of trust and especially
with they were in. This thing I was reading about
is like the love of the community. There's lots of
you know, like leather daddies are like really big muscly men,
so they don't think anyone's going to hurt them. They're
they're you know, in charge. It's all it's very overblown
presentational masculinity.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
It's less of a risk than a woman going home
with a man, because a man can defend himself supposedly
against another man.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, one exactly. And also they're like that's part of
the play, which I'm sure is the other thing. The
cops were like, you know, this is a little something
that got out of hand type of thing because you're
into anyway, blame, blame, blame. So this journalist named Arthur
Bell wrote up this big article after Addison Verel, after

(33:20):
the story came out that he was stabbed because the
whole the whole story about Adison Verrel was whitewashed, but
they didn't talk about him being gay. They were it
was very like a terrible murder, but they made it
sound sound like a passing thing. And Arthur Bell was like,
there's a serious serial killer in our community and we
have to start giving a shit. And if nobody's going

(33:42):
to give a shit about somebody that's famous, like you know,
like this is our chance or whatever. So he wrote
a big, huge article for the Village Voice about that
people needed to start, like real police work needed to
start going into this because people were very afraid. And
then he got a phone call. Arthur Bell this journal,
he gets a phone call from a man who tells him,

(34:04):
I'm the guy that killed Addison Verrall and we were together.
I met him at a bar. We went back to
his apartment and while we were like after we had sex,
I had an epiphany and I realized this was not
a reciprocal relationship. He didn't love me, he didn't want
to be my boyfriend, he didn't want to get married,
and I wasn't getting anything I wanted and that's why

(34:28):
I killed him. And he tells him a bunch of specifics,
including that there was Chrisco all over the scene of
the crime, which was a very common lubricant that people
used phone that that had not been released to the
present anyway. And so Arthur Bell calls the cops and says,

(34:48):
I just got this phone call. That was crazy. I
figured I should tell you, and he starts telling them
these details that no one else knows besides the cops,
and the cops know this is the real guy. Holy crap.
So he talked to the real kid, which is insane.
So then Arthur gets a call from a guy named
Richard Ryan who said he also knew who the killer

(35:09):
was because he had met him and talked to him.
And this guy had basically told him I think he
said he met him in AA or something and he
basically had been trying to get sober and had admitted
to him that he had killed Addison Barrel. Wow. And
so but that's the only one he admitted to killing. Yes,

(35:30):
So he Arthur Bell takes that information, goes to the cops,
gives them the name, and that's when they go and
find Paul Bates in and after they arrested Bates and
he was in rikers, and apparently he was bragging to
everybody in there that he not only killed Adison Berrel,
but he was killing quote, like a bunch of gay
guys just for fun because he was bored, and so

(35:55):
then just for fun because he was bored. Yeah, he's
just trying to impress people, bowling, dude. He was cutting
people up, wrapping their parts in bags and dumbleing them.
But they think it actually they think he's responsible for
way more murders. But he would only he only he
pled guilty to the Addison Barrel murder, got twenty years

(36:17):
and he got out in twenty four, twenty years from
just for stabbing, bludgeoning murder just because you got sad
that someone didn't love you, dude, who oh you mean
the murderer? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, you got bum that
Addison didn't love you. Well, but you know this, I
mean he's probably psychotic or you know. Yeah, but it's
so weird, like so an un what's the word I'm
looking of. It's only they got in a fight.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
He just killed him and he only gets twenty years.
Yeah that bothers me so much.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Well, he's crazy. He clearly can't you know, I know
what's he going to have another relationship and just what
he is he going to deal with that? I think
that there are people like that out there. Yeah, there's
lots of them. I don't so. But here's the interesting thing.
So William Freakin hears about this, finds out but an
extra in his movie was a serial killer, goes to

(37:03):
writers and starts interviewing him and then decides. And in
the meantime, somebody else I don't have the author's name,
wrote a book called Cruising, which was about a serial
killer in the seventies leather scene in New York City.
And so Friedkin goes and talks to Paul Bateson and
then decides he's going to direct the movie. And so

(37:24):
there's a movie called Cruising starring Al Pacino, about a
cop that's going undercover in the New York City leather
scene to find a serial killer. Did you watch it?
I have not seen it. I wonder it's easy to
find her if it's one of those I think it. Well,
it's kind of infamous because it's very homophobic. It's very
bad like it basically says all these people are deviants

(37:46):
without morals and would kill you or kill anybody, and
there's a lot of bad stuff in it. And when
the gay community found out that they were shooting this
movie in New York City, they all it basically galvanized
the gay rights movement, and they would go down and
like protest the shooting the while they were filming. Yeah,
so they would go down with whistles and they were

(38:08):
they were holding up like mirrors and making them light
go into the scenes or whatever. That's great, but they
ended up shooting it anyway. They got it done, and
when it came out, everyone was like, this is the worst.
Like up until that point, yeah, most gay men in
film were like, Oh, you're the kookie butler that has
no real life or personality, and they don't actually say
you're gay, if they just imply it. You're just a joke, right,

(38:31):
You're just a joke right now, you're not just now,
you're when you're not a joke.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
You're a murderer who deserves and a murder victim who
kind of deserves them.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
You're a victim exactly, and you're everything about your life
lacks all morals and you're just you're basically, Yeah, it's
how much.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
More real it that whole story be if if the
person the murderer, it had nothing to do with the
fact that he was gay. He's just a fucking psychopathic murderer.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yes, you know, yeah, but I mean yeah, it's just
the whole thing is is super awful. There's a great
be called The Celluloid Closet, and it's a documentary about
you know, all like gay people in Hollywood and and all,
and the treatment of them and the and basically the
way they've been presented and seeing it it's pretty fascinating.

(39:13):
And they talk about cruising. It's really good. I think
that's it. I had something else, but sorry, my cats
are attacking each other next to you. That's amazing. That's it.
So tell me his name again. I want to go
Paul Bateson is his name.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
I want to go back and see that scene where
there's a fucking real life serial killer.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
I know it's really good. It's very very creepy scene.
Now I should have watched. I just didn't have time
to watch Cruising, but I also know it's incredibly depressive.
There's no point in you watching that. And I also
read like reviews of it and apparently it doesn't It's
not very cohesive. And it was initially rated X, so
they had to pull out all these scenes because there's
all this like, you know, kind of intense leather scene shit,

(39:56):
and they wouldn't be MPAA or whatever they're called wooden,
not let William freakin. So basically when he had to
edit it, it came out way shorter and almost nonsensical.
Oh my god. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
And people always talk about wanting to go back in time,
which I totally fucking do. But the seventies, even the seventies,
the eighties, the nineties, we're so racist and homophobic and
fucking sexist.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Would you really want to go back? I mean, that's
the thing. It's just this, It's the more we talk
about stuff like this, it just becomes this like humanist
thing to me, where it's just like we have people
have to I mean it's separate from mentally ill people
who just like have to murder or whatever, but it's
a thing of like we have to look at each
other as human beings. Yeah, it's crazy that, you know

(40:38):
what I mean, we always want to go Oh those
people they get what they deserve or it's like, are
you fucking crazy? Yeah, But if something happens to you,
you don't deserve it.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, someone could say you and I could be in
a category that someone a lot of people out there
would say that about for whatever reason, because we're women,
because we live in Los Angeles, because you know, whatever
the reasons. Yeah, so people could say that about you,
So why would you say that about other people?

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Right, It's just it's just lame. It's just I don't know.
I don't know. At the end of all these stories,
I'm always like, it's lame. I'm sorry, I brought it up.
Sorry I brought it up. It's a rough one.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
It's called my Favorite Murder. I'm sorry I brought it
I'm sorry I brought it up.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
I'm not Yeah, there's something fascinating to the idea that
there's just like a person in a horror movie that's
also living is walking the wall.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
I wonder if he, in his twisted brain, was like
laughing at the irony of it too, I know.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
I wonder. He's apparently a very bad alcoholic too, so
he claims he didn't remember. Yeah, yeah, I think he's
died since he got out in two thousand and four.
He's living in upstate New York. What did he do
after just chill and make breakfast. Did he make breakfast
for himself every day? You know what? He went down
to the community center and he's so crazy love to

(41:56):
help with the spaghetti dinner every month.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
Isn't it crazy that you only have to go door
to door and let your community know if you're a pedophile,
but not if you're a convicted murderer, serial killer, a
convicted serial was that he wasn't convicted for Aldon though,
So yeah, just a.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
Killer, just a killer. Caring any updates on your story
there is well, it's like a corrections corner. There's confusion
in this episode about whether or not Paul Bateson had
begun killing before he appeared in this movie in The Exorcist,
Like now they believe he began to kill men in

(42:36):
nineteen seventy seven. This movie was filmed in nineteen seventy two.
So it's a future serial killer that you're seeing in
that movie, not an active serial killer, my god. Yeah.
And then so we also don't know where he is now,
which is fun, right. So he served a twenty four
year sentence and then he was given parole on August

(42:58):
twenty fifth, two thousand and three from the Saten Island
Prison where he was being held. He was sixty three
at the time. He was done with parole in two
thousand and eight, and no one knows where he is.
There were rumors he was living in upstate New York.
No one knows whether or not he's still alive, and

(43:18):
people have tried to figure it out and look into it.
There's people named Paul Bates in like someone named Paul
Beates and died in September of twenty twelve. But they
don't match that's him. Yeah, it's yeah, they can't. It
seems the same. They can't prove it.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
That's twenty four years and then paroled at a relatively
young age. Then you're off parole and goodbye, good luck.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
And you're a true serial Kelly. Yes, this is not like,
this is not some horrible he the moment. Yes, it's
not a passion a crime of passion. It's not any that.
This is a person who very intentionally stalked and killed. Yeah. Men,
I mean.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
To me, that's hiding in planes site more than you
being a serial killer that hasn't been caught. That you
being a serial killer that's been caught and released.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
And good luck and god bless. Yeah, it's wild. It's
truly crazy. It does feel like I think when we
talk about stuff like this, it's like, shouldn't there be
a separate class of talking about jail and holding people
who literally can't stop killing other people or can't stop

(44:29):
raping other people? Like, shouldn't that whole thing go differently
for them? Because especially these stories that are from the
seventies or earlier, where it's like they go to jail
for eight years or something. I mean wild.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
If we're going to talk about that, let's talk about
statute of limitations, hate them all right.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
Well, now we're going to listen to Georgia's story on
this episode. Her story is about two children who committed
murder themselves. Here we go, Hey, what's your murder?

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Dr?

Speaker 1 (45:03):
Hey, okay, so hiding in plain sight.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
When you said that to me, I was like, oh, okay,
I didn't really get it. No, I was excited about
it because I was like, so you mean like serial
killers who have day jobs? Like I didn't really understand it.
So I was like, yeah, that's kind of what I meant. Okay, Yeah,
And you said yes, So I was like, what does
that mean to me? Hiding in plain sight, and to me,
that meant being and I'm fascinated by this and how
disgusting it is. Hiding in plain sight is being a

(45:26):
child who kills someone, because that's plain site, is being
a child. And this one is kind of So I
have two similar but very different child murderers that I've
always thought about because they're so fucked up. And the
first one is the murderer is Josh Phillips, and he

(45:46):
killed Maddie Clifton.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
So do you know this one? No?

Speaker 2 (45:50):
Yeah, this one is a kind of well known one,
but I just it's interesting because recently some new information
came out about it. So basically, in this kid, Josh
Phillips was born in nineteen eighty four. He's from Jacksonville, Florida,
and in July nineteen ninet nine, he was convicted of
murdering his eight year old neighbor, Mattie Clifton. He murdered
her in November ninety eight. He was fourteen years old

(46:13):
and she was nine years old. And what happened was
Maddie disappeared and everyone the kil community started looking for
her and couldn't find her. And then the search ended
a week after the disappearance when Josh Philips's mother went
to clean up Josh's room and thought his waterbed was leaking,

(46:33):
which a don't get your kid a waterbed.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
B it's not leaking. You're not like a bachelor. Yeah
what is?

Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah? I way to give your kid fucking back problems
and send them to jail at the same time, because
what's more comfortable the water bed or the jail mattress
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
So it's the mother's fault.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
It's Melissa, you needed to get this together. Upon further examination,
she discovered that it was Mattie's body hiddenside, hidden like
underneath the bed, and she and fucking kudos to her,
ran outside across the street there was a police and
was like, hey, this you know, like some parents, I
don't know if they would do that immediately or they

(47:11):
would wait until he.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Came home and talk. I'm like, what the fuck and
then call the police. She was like, get the fuck
you know, freak out. Oh that is amazing. So Josh
was arrested at school that day and he was held
in maximum security. So here's what's so fucked up about it.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
As a fourteen year old, he was tried as an
adult and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole,
like adult killers who kill more people in a more
fucked up way and sexually assault them are not given
such a harsh sentence. And so, according to Josh, what
happened was that Maddie came next door to play with him,

(47:47):
and despite the fact that Josh wasn't allowed to have
people over when his parents weren't home, he let her
in anyways, that two were playing, according to him, that
you were playing baseball outside. Josh through the ball and
it's struck Maddie in the eye, causing her to start bleeding,
and she started to scream, and Josh freaks out because
his father is abusive and has a temper, and if

(48:10):
he finds out that Maddie's there, the fact that she's
screaming and got hurt at his house, he's going to
be in a shit ton of trouble, including being abused.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
So he takes her to his room.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
I don't know if I should even go into the details,
because I know people who are listening to have children,
and I don't want to.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
Well, if you have children and you are listening to
a murder podcast, but you're going to get sensitive. Yeah,
then I would go forward a one minute, thirty seconds,
thank you. Basically, she died from stabbing.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
And strangulation and clubbing with a baseball bat. Overkill took
her pants off, but didn't but she wasn't molested, which
is odd.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Also, I was.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
Reading something on Reddit that said that she didn't have
any He said he dragged her inside the house, but
there wasn't any dirt or sticks or anything on her
body on her clothes, which would indicate that that had happened.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
So we don't really know for sure.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
And that's a really that's I mean, he tries to
get off easy by saying he hit her in the head,
but then he goes on to over and tells how
he killed her.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
So it's not like he was.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
If he was lying about one of them, why wouldn't
he lie about both of them. Yes, so he's he's
never gonna be free. She was nude from the waist down,
but it didn't seem and so the murder appears to
have been motivated by his fear of his abusive father.
It's just so fucked up.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Do they know that's true or would that be another
thing he could have been making up.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yeah, we don't know that either, or even that maybe
maybe the because I watched a couple episodes of you know,
true crime shows where the parents get interviewed, and maybe
that was something that they made up, even to say like,
oh no, the father was abusive and he was scared
of him, like let's give him an out.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
So we don't know if that was true or not.
You think you're right, especially the stabbing part. Yeah, the
stabbing is such a furious and personal thing.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
He also choked her for fifteen minutes. Oh yeah, that
is a lot, and it's it's very hard to choke
someone to death. I think we all if you're into
true crime, you know this. It takes a lot longer
and a lot more force than Yeah, and that's when
you're an adult. That's when you're an adult. But she's
also eight or nine, so she's probably a little more fragile.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
She's all.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
I mean. The thing that fucks me up about this
is that she's this little tomboy girl, and she reminds
me of me as a kid who wanted to hang
out with the older boys and play with them and
be one of the guys. There's a video, there's a
home video he made that the boy made of this
little girl, Maddie and her sister playing with their new puppy.

(50:41):
So like she trusted this kid next door. She wanted
to come over and was bugging him to play with her.
And as a fourteen year old, did he have like
a history of anything, not mental stuff or no mental stuff?
The dad died in a car accident eventually. Okay, So
in twenty twelve. Recently, the Supreme Court ruled that automatic

(51:03):
life without parole sentences for juveniles is unconstitutional, and that
ruling entitles Phillips to a re sentencing hearing. Also, he's
super hot, now whatever, that's just up beside the point.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
But let's just put it out there. Let's just let
everyone know that. Let's just get those people on tender aware. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
So, and there's not a ton of conversation about this murder,
like on Reddit or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
So I just thought it was interesting. I agree that
life without parole for a fourteen year old is insane,
even though I get it. He's I mean that stabbing
a little girl to death and strangling something happened with
that boy. Yeah, something very bad happened that boy. Whether
it's a psychotic break, whether it was something to he
was terribly abused.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
It was like there was an interesting conversation in Reddit
and like the one little bit I was able to
find where this commenter was saying, you know, when I
was a kid, my dad was abusive, and all you
wanted to do is not get in trouble. That you
didn't think of what would happen in the future if
you got caught hiding whatever it was that you were
in trouble. Getting in trouble meant the whole family would
be terrorized. H So you do whatever you can to

(52:11):
not get in trouble that moment, and it kind of
made sense in a way that was like, she's not
dying from this way, She's not dying.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
I need to kill.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
Her at this point and get it over with because
I'm going to get in trouble for having had someone
over which is you know, maybe he was a little
maybe he was developmentally delayed, but fourteen year old fourteen
seems too old to think that killing someone was an
okay solution to Yes.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
For sure. Also, I feel like hitting someone in the
head and being afraid, and this is this is just theory.
Obviously he would just hit her in the head a
bunch more times, right, why not just smack her in
the head with a baseball? That it is. The other
part just gets so violent up close, crazy bloody. I mean,

(52:54):
like yeah, almost like wanting to see what happened. What happens,
you know, well, and the pants down thing is not good.
The pants down thing is a very a very It's
sexual no matter what. Yeah, So even if you didn't
touch her, it's sexual. Yes. And stabbing is sexual in that,
you know, in that psycho sexual way. Yeah. Totally strangling too,

(53:15):
I mean yeah, oh man, I mean and when.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
You strangle someone, you for the most part, have to
look at them in the face.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
If you can fucking do that, you got some major
issues beyond you being scared. You're gonna get that belt
whipping from your dad.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Yeah. And also, I mean people always say this, but
I'll just say it anyway. There's you can hear the
courus of people who were abused by terrible parents who
are like, I would never kill anybody. So it's not
a plus B Like, I think that that psychiatric element
is absolutely has to be there. Yeah, Because here's the
other thing too, You're right, a mother who would immediately

(53:53):
run across the street, like obviously, it's insane finding a
dead body and your son's bed. She knew, yeah, she
knew he did it, Like it wasn't. I don't know.
She didn't go. Let's let the cops tell us what
happened when you have to go get my son.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Her first her first thought was for the girl, the
little girl and her and her family who was waiting
to find where she was, and not for her kid,
or or for the for the dad who you know,
because if you find the body, someone in the house
did it, you might not know it's your son. Her
first thought was that I found this the girl. Yeah,

(54:29):
she's clearly the victim, not not my son. That's amazing. Yeah,
that's that's fucked up. There's another one too, but maybe
I don't need to get into it.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Do it? Do it?

Speaker 2 (54:39):
It's just Eric Smith. This the red the like the
little oh, the redhead kid.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
He killed his parents. No, okay, So Eric Smith born
nineteen eighty.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
He murdered four year old Derek Roby on August second,
nineteen ninety three.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
This is in Steuben County, New York.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
So Eric hat Eric, unlike Josh, had been diagnosed by
defense psychiatrist with intermittent explosive disorder. It's a mental disorder
causing individuals to act up violently and unpredictably.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
He was a loner.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
He was tormented by bullies his you know, he he
was like a nerdy redhead. You look at him as
a kid in court, especially these videos of him in court,
and he's just this. You can tell he's troubled just
by looking at him. You can tell he'd been bullied.
You can tell he didn't like himself. And he basically
said he took his anger out on this little kid,

(55:37):
this sweet little Derek Roby, who was riding his bike
to summer camp and see Eric was riding his bike
to summer camp and four year old Derek was walking
alone to the same camp. They saw each other, he
learned him into the nearby woods, and then Smith like
overkilled the shit out of him. Like so this was
on purpose, Like you know, it's it's such a weird thing.

(55:58):
It's like, well, these two different things where this had
said that he had to do it because he hit
her in the head, and his dad was going to
find out this kid just straight up wanted to murder someone. Yeah,
And I remember hearing this thing about in one of
the one of the many fucking true crime tales. I
watched that he that that Eric took a banana out
of his lunch and smashed it into the little kid's face.

(56:20):
And later that night the aunt or someone was babysitting
him and got a banana out and the kid freaked out.
And I think that's how they figured out who it was.
The kid freaked out over the banana. So basically, uh
he Smith said that he'd been bullied by older children
in high school, and that is by his hosso, by
his father and sister.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
And he confessed that he took his raye dad on Roby,
but was worried that Roby would tell, so he killed him.
It's very odd. It's so old, does he when he
did it? So this kid was Eric was where I
think he was fourteen as well. Oh wow, I just
looking at pictures of him. Oh you know when I

(57:03):
was working those two boys that kill their dad, Yeah,
his picture came up all the time. Yeah, and he
looks so young. He looks he's in a blazer, He
doesn't look thirteen. He looks like he could be. He
looks like he's not eleven or twelve yeat nine, and
he's got those ears that stick out, big old ears.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
And if you look at him now too, because there's
some interviews with there's some jailhouse interviews with him now
or he like he's just so apologetic to the family.
He says, I wish I could take the kid's place.
Like he's very, very remorseful about it. But even now
he looks he looks like remember the redheaded guy in
the burbs who lived who was one of the haunted

(57:41):
that lived in the house. He looks like him now.
It's just like he doesn't look which is such.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
I shouldn't judge someone by the way they look. But
you know, well, I mean that's why people get bullied
if you look different. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
It's well, so he's been apologizing through in prison. This
other kid, Josh, he has since gone on to a
he got his he got a degree in being a
paralegal and he's been working as a paralegal helping other
inmates with their appeals. So both of these people have
like have gone on to try to make amends for

(58:15):
their their murder. Do they deserve to be in prison forever?
And I'm not I'm not asking like they don't. I
fucking don't know.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
Right, it really brings well, it makes you come way
off the like let them all fry, right, which is
I like to feel that way just because it's very
comfortable and like a l But it's the same reason
that I don't.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
I still can't give anyone a definite answer about the
death penalty, right, I just couldn't give anyone an answer.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
Right. Wow, that's a rough run. I mean we just
say it every time. We might as well have like
just pre taped and we roll that in of like
wow that was awful. Wow that was bad.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
And also wow, those stick in my head and always
have and I'll always think about them randomly.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yeah, all the time. I think about all of these. Yeah,
So are there updates for your story?

Speaker 2 (59:01):
Well, so, I mentioned in the episode that in twenty twelve,
the Supreme Court ruled that automatic life without parole sentences
for juveniles were unconstitutional, and so in twenty seventeen, the
year after this episode was recorded, Phillips did get a
resentencing hearing, and he expressed regret for murdering eight year

(59:21):
old Matty Clifton. He claimed not to understand what he
was doing at the time, and a psychologist testified that
he believed Phillips was truly remorseful and had been rehabilitated.
But the judge ultimately resentenced Phillips to life in prison
with an opportunity to have a sentence reviewed after twenty
five years, and he cited how heinous the murder was,

(59:42):
and an appellate court upheld the decision and so that
review should occur sometime this year, in twenty twenty four,
which will be twenty five years after Phillips's original nineteen
ninety nine sentencing.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
I mean he spent his whole life in jail.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Yeah, because he took the life of an eight year old, right,
But I don't know, it's this, These are hard ones,
especially because they're children.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Well, and also it's it's all hard because it's all
contextual and it's easy to kind of sit over here
and knowing we'll never go to jail, going those people
should do this or that. But for things like this
where when you tell the story and you know what
happened to that little girl, it's just like, yeah, what
is right. There's also those things where like when kids

(01:00:27):
kill it's because in incredibly fucked up things have happened
to them, right, and.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
We don't understand what they're doing. They don't understand the
permanence of that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Yeah. Or the Mary Bell story, Yeah, where all the
worst things had already happened to her. She did it
in that way of like someone's kind of doing this
to me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
It's just like marrying someone's actions absolutely horrifying. And then
for the Eric Smith case, he actually spent twenty eight
years behind bars for the ninety three murder of four
year old Derek Roby when Smith was thirteen, and Smith
was finally entered parole in twenty twenty one after being
denied in ten previous hearings. He was ultimately released in

(01:01:06):
February of twenty twenty two at the age of forty
two years old, and he now lives in Queens, New York.
It's like one is home and living his life and
one is still behind bars, and it's like, how are
they different? And like what makes one person more remorseful
or more rehabilitated than the other. It's just such a

(01:01:26):
I mean, yeah, it just depends on the judge and
the jury.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
I mean, are there people there that are also listening
to all the facts and then like weighing in on that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
I think in this kind of case, it's a judge only.
Maybe hey, let us know legal people.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Yeah, all right, so let's it's hometown time. So let's
listen to the original episode nine Hometown.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
Do you want to read us? Let's see why don't
we do this? So you want to read a favorite
hometown murder that we got emailed? You can email us
at my favorite Murder at gmail your hometown mark. Well,
we'll read one every fucking week, even though we get
so many.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
It's incredible. I love you guys. And then maybe let's
do a quick separate episode of other people's favorite on
the Facebook page, I said, what's your hidden in plane
sight murder? And I can read a few of those,
and maybe we can read one or two hometown murders.
So we'll have a mini episode that'll come out maybe
a couple days after the regular one comes out. Great?
Is that cool? I love it? Okay? So why don't

(01:02:26):
you read me a hometown murder? Please? Okay? Cool? This
is also another Now I'm getting obsessed with follow up. Oh,
I'm getting obsessed with like thoroughness and research. But I
really do genuinely love it. So this is a bit
of a follow up, but there's much more to it. Okay,
and it's from Lily k We'll say yes. Uh Hi,
Karen and Georgia can't believe how much you sound like

(01:02:48):
my friend Julie and I will wear together and really
get going. I've been obsessed with true crime for so
long that I became a forensic psychologist. You are a
fucking bad ass, Lily. I not do what you love.
There's nothing else in the entire world I'd rather do.
And yes, you can interned for me sometimes. Way to go.

(01:03:08):
I make my husband watch all the true crime shows
and now when he gets sick, he's convinced I'm poisoned
like those deadly women of centuries past. I love it anyway.
I just found your podcast and your call for Hometown Crime.
Then I saw you did mine in your second episode Bummer,
but I decided not to listen to it yet and
pretend you didn't do it, so I can tell you

(01:03:29):
about it. Love it. Paul Bernardo was mine, and like
I mentioned, it affected me so much that I became
a forensic psychologist. When I was in high school in Toronto.
Toronto the Scarborough suburb of Toronto, rapes were going on.
It was terrifying. The bus company started letting women out
at any point along the route at night, not just

(01:03:51):
at stop, so we wouldn't have to walk far from
the stop to home. Oh wow, our regular gym classes
were canceled and we got a specialist into teach self defense.
Holy shit. Also, there was a guy at my high
school who looked more like the sketch of the Scarborough
rapist than Paul ever did. And he said he was
thinking of changing his hair when the sketch came out,
but he was afraid that that would actually make him

(01:04:12):
look more guilty. Ye oh what And then she put
in puncies. It wasn't him, by the way. Okay. So,
just as the rapes started slowing down, we heard about
two girls go missing on the other side of Toronto.
Did you know Leslie Mahaffe was actually locked out of
her house the night that she met Paul Bernardo. Horrible.
She was a rebellious teen and her mom picked that

(01:04:35):
night to do some tough love on her when she
broke her few and locked her out and her mom
locked her out.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Can I just said, my mom tough love is like,
was a thing and my mom fucking did it and
it was the worst in the eighties. Yeah, kids, parents,
please don't do tough love on your kids. It doesn't work. Yeah,
that's right. Oh I guess sorry, go no, that's okay.
It's oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
So she locked her kid, mother locked her out of
the house. How much does that woman hate herself? Now?
Oh I can't. I mean, that is if she's even
still alive. That is okay. Talk about the worst thing
in the world. Totally a child dying and then you,
oh my god, that's niner. And then Kristin French was
also portrayed as the good girl, and Leslie as the

(01:05:17):
more rebellious and Tammy, Carla's sister was basically a forgotten
I know every single detail about this case, but in
case you don't want to hear it, I'll get to
some good anecdotes. This was going on throughout my entire
high school life, the rapes, the murders. Then my last
year of high school they found out it was Paul
and Carla, so of course I went to the trial.

(01:05:38):
I actually had this college boyfriend I wasn't that into
and I made him go with me. Poor guy. He
was really upset about being there, but I loved it. Paul. Oh,
it's says. Paul was so incredibly in court. I wonder
what she meant when they took his handcuffs off. He
wouldn't just turn his wrists to have them removed. He
would turn his entire body. It was as if he

(01:06:00):
was trying to look every person in the gallery, and
it was creepy. And then in college, a girl in
my dorm started dating a guy named Sam who looked
by Paul. So whenever I had a couple drinks in me,
I'd call them Paul. I love this chick. I also
wrote all my psych papers in college on Paul Bernardo

(01:06:21):
or Carla abnormal psych class, personality class. I wanted to
know what made them tick and then harrifying but it's
super long.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
Yeah, what a terrifying fucking thing to go through high school.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
I mean it took up their whole world. I mean
that was just crazy. And then to find out that
a woman is involved. I don't know why. I like,
because you would see a couple and you'd think I'm safe.
It's the only talk about that. Yeah, it's too was it?
I think so? But That's the reason I love that
she gave all those details, because that was the one
where I wasn't I was a little fuzzy on my details,
and that shit you wouldn't know about. It's the same

(01:06:55):
thing about watching The Simpsons is that it's information that
you know, you watched the whole trial, but you could
not have known what it was like to be on
the jury or what it was like in Marcia Clark's
office when her boss was pissed about the glove that
they it was their idea to have him try the
glove on. Yeah. Oh, and also that like being I
love that she loved it so much she went to trial. Yeah,

(01:07:18):
that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
I can't tell you how like I've been asking people
their hometown murders for years when I'm at gut parties
and drinking too much and calling people by murders names,
and this is like just feeding This is feeding me
on a level that I can't even handle.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
You can really put away that voice in your heads
that says you're weird in any way.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
It's just simply not weird. Because we have an inbox
full of hometown murders. I hope we haven't gotten any like, yeah,
it's incredible. Any what Sorry, I don't know, Like I
wouldn't like you said, someone asked us to be on
their podcasts and our Gmail, and I wouldn't see it
because it's just buried underneath that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
Is, there's at least one person, but I think there
might be more than what.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
We need to give them a different email address. Yeah,
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
I wonder where Lily is now? How cool is that?
I know? What if she's like the lead forensic scientist,
I don't know, is there something more specific she could
have become. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Can you write us please and like give us a
follow up? Please, Lily Kay, We need to know about
your life now, Yes, please, All these years later, it's
the eight and a half year.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
Follow up, Oh my god, that would be so rad.
I mean it's like, Lily Kay was the first. We've
had so many people either write in with their hometown
or that we've met in person at the live shows
that have told us that like they changed their major
or they've always wanted to be like do forensic science.
That idea that there would be all these people that

(01:08:44):
kind of go into that line of work, yeah, because
they like true crime and the true crime got popular
in twenty sixteen is so exciting to me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
That's one of my favorites. Is like I decided to
do this and it's just it's unreal.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
And also it's like to be a part of the solution.
I'm gonna I'm gonna get in there, use my brain
and try to like advance what all of this is.

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
Totally, and you know, it's a huge majority is women.
So it's just like so proud that if we have
any little tiny part of that, Like, what more do
we fucking need from our lives?

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
We've done it? You know what we need? Better? Title?
You don't like Cutler re nine? Okay? Okay, I do? Actually, yeah,
it's pretty for a pun, I do. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
So now we're gonna tell you what titles we would
pick now if we were naming this episode, not a pun,
but a quote from what we said during the episode. Okay,
So one is You've ruined yourself?

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
Love that. I feel like that one's a pretty's strong contender.
That was that was you talking about ruining the people
versus O. J. Simpson, which we call the Simpsons for listeners,
you're basically spoiler alerting it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
Yeah, well, you've ruined yourself. I can hear myself saying
sure SaaS.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Then there's someone take a shot, which is you talking
about the drinking game, and then you actually say hold
shit in the episode, So then take a shot, do it?
And then I'm sorry I brought it up.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
Were you telling a story and how you feel sometimes
after we're talking about these two, like, I'm sorry I
brought it up on the Murder podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:10:12):
Yea, because like how what what we were thinking? Yeah?
That encapsulates a lot, it's us. I mean i'd pick
any of those two. Yeah, what would you guys pick?

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
I think we've been posting them on social media, like
vote for which one you want?

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
And I kind of love that. And I've been voting too.
I'm not gonna want on a dirty vote. You're getting
your dirty voting vote.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Because you can't see the answer of like the percentages
unless you vote.

Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
So I vote for mine. G wants to the part
of everything. How about that? Oh there it is. We
did it. We fucking did it. We did it. It's
another rewind episode for all of you. Thank you so
much for listening. You guys have really been supportive and
here for this and it's very exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
It is we uh we appreciate you guys so much.
Thank you guys for tuning.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
In and stay sex and don't get murdered. Good the
NYE Elvis, do you want a cookie?

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
Mm hm

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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 9: Color Me Nine

Episode Transcript

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Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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