Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 54: Valet Area - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Las, Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Rewind every Wednesday, and you might know this. We go
back and we recap our old shows and we give
it all new commentary, we give it updates, we bring
some insights, we do our thing.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
And today we're doing our thing with episode fifty four,
which we named Valet Area.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
This episode came out on February second, twenty seventeen, year two.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Of the podcast. We were in it.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
We were in it, So let's listen to the intro
of episode fifty four.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Moments of staring at each other. I thought we were
going to say hi at the same time.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
I know, but I didn't know when you were going
to start Ready to came here? Hi?

Speaker 3 (01:00):
How are you?

Speaker 1 (01:02):
What the what the?

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Welcome to my favorite murder. It's a show where we
talk at the same time. Time time time. That's Georgia Hardstar,
that's Karen Kilgarriff. This is my favorite murder.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Welcome. I'm so glad you could make it.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Thanks for coming, Thanks for staying for at least ten minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
We hope we're gon We're going to do this for
ten minutes. Just a lot of back and forth yep,
yeap if you're into that hang out.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
If no, bye bye yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
See you in twenty actually twenty minutes when we start
the murders.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
See you LUs forty five minutes when I begin to
commit to the project.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
That is my favorite murder.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
We're being realistic. Now, do you love your You got
a manicure?

Speaker 3 (01:47):
I got a manicure today. I did need to look
at my line. I know, isn't it fun?

Speaker 1 (01:50):
You're You're gazing lovingly at your nails. I've never seen
you do that before.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Here's the thing, and I just talked about this but
to you, but having I so now I work on
Guy Branham's TV show, and on this TV show, I
get Fritz Sometimes eight thirty in the morning, I get
three grown women who stand around me doing my hair
and makeup for hours.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
And it is so fun.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
I love it and like people just just teasing my
hair for like forty five minutes straight and shaping it
so I have really good hair, doing makeup very lightly,
brushing my.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Face for an hour. Amazing.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
I start to realize, like on the first day, because
this is a very collapse schedule.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
It's been hard.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
We've worked a lot, so they're recording on a Sunday
instead of a Tuesday.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
That's right because this next week is going to be
the same and crazy. But so the first day we
went to tape, I sat down at my So it's
a it's called talk show.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
The game show.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Guy is hosting, Guy Branham, friend of the show, expert
lawyer Guy Branham.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
It's a talk show.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
He's the host, and I am a judge where people
come out and they get they do an interview with Guy,
and then I judge them and tell them how they did. God,
that sounds like a dream job, just like super fun. Yeah,
and you don't get judged.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
You just talk shit. They can't say shit to me,
don't talk to me.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
But going through like basically the beauty a glam squad
every morning makes me realize how like the first day
after I left, Diane, who's my makeup person, handed me
a mask and she goes, way, you put this on tonight,
And it was basically like thing by thing where it's like, oh, yeah,
that's right. Like I go home and then just go

(03:36):
to sleep and don't worry, Like can you.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Make our lives a little easier?

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Can you not make this so that we have to
put you together like a wax God damn dummy. And
so then you know, like one day I realized I
have to hold up signs, I need to paint my finger.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yes, no, dude, I got it.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
When you're like, oh this person, I have done the
bare minimum of looking good.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yes, and now. But then once I do it, it's like, oh,
this is fun.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Didn't feel nice to take care to pampherate yourself?

Speaker 3 (04:02):
It really does. So today I really like it.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
So today I was like, I just did my nails
last week really fast.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
I do that too.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
But so today I went and got a manicure in
Silver Lake and it was nice, and the lady Rose
was did it really awesomely?

Speaker 1 (04:16):
So sweet that you find out the names of your mind.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
Asked me my name, and then I asked her her name.
I love it. It was fun.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
When I went to leave also, but my glam ended
because this was the weekend, so I had no makeup on,
and fuck, that looked a lot like a scumbag. You
saw me that morning went to leave.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
I told you in the morning, you look beautiful, and well,
I can't have it nothing, I said, beautiful thing, I said,
you look so pretty right, I think beautiful.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
And then I was like, get away from me in
the valet area and ran away from you. I was
I was working ballet.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
The Georgia had her little hat on and she brought
my car around. I told her to get away from me,
went and got a manicure. As I was getting wrung up,
a girl who was getting her manicure looked up at
me and goes Karen, and I go yeah, because I
was like, oh dosh, she work with me. Is it
somebody that like, I haven't talked to you that much?

Speaker 3 (05:02):
Whatever?

Speaker 2 (05:02):
And then she goes, I love your podcast. But she
was like she was getting a manicure, so she was
kind of weirdly stuck. It wasn't like we could shake
hands or say hi or anything. And I immediately got
so self conscious that I had like these crazy nice nails.
And then other than that, I really looked like I
rolled out from under a bridge. I was like, oh,
thanks bye, and just ran away so quickly. So I

(05:25):
just wanted to say to that girl, if you're listening,
which she might have quit at this point because I
was so not all that friendly to her. Hi, I'm
sorry didn't ask you what your name was. I'm sorry
I didn't say I sorry, I didn't have a moment
with you. I was kind of embarrassed. I'm kind of embarrassed, and.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
Just like, how are you feeling today? Kind of embarrassed,
kind of generally embarrassed.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, but I'm working on it. Yeah, but I hie
to her. But the thing is too that she knows
so much about you at this point and like doesn't
expect you to, like she doesn't think you're gonna be
chrissy fucking Teagan, you know what I mean. Yeah, like
we haven't fucking positioned ourselves to be chrissy fucking I mean,
take it seems like a chill.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Chick, but like I look, for some reason, I can't
drop the chrissy Tiguan expectation.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
It's my problem.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
Oh yeah, no one's I kind of am like, oh,
maybe I look like I kind of get that because
I'm like, I'm not wearing makeup anymore. And then I'll
see myself sometimes and be like, oh my god, I
look like I'm on my way to rehab and like
two people like my neighborhood fucking cafe, are they like
she okay and have like some acne scars right now,
So it looks a little like I've been picking at
my face, you know, like, yes.

Speaker 3 (06:26):
I want to be presentable. You might be presentable.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
If my mom saw me, who's a fucking really into
images everything, she'd be like, she'd be worried about me.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
My mom.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
I have a tape in my head of my mom
who used to always if you would like walk through
the kitchen, it would just be like after school one day,
or like casual time. My mom would be the one
to go, oh God, put some lipstick on. You look
like a corpse. That was like her great quote. So
I have that kind of the Room'm like, really, in
the house, you need me.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
To wear lipstick?

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Lady.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
It's so Mom's the minute she sees me, she tells
me how something I am doing that she likes it
better when I do the other way.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Around, Like if I have short hair.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Oh I like your hair longer, not like you look
It's like, oh, I like you you're shorter. Like it's
just like, here's what you're You've done that doesn't please me? Yes,
And I'm like, fuck you, you voted for Trump? What
do you Here's what you fucking mom?

Speaker 3 (07:22):
That's right, you don't get to tell me no.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
No, moms, moms and dads. Do we have corners?

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (07:33):
I have a couple of corners.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Can I tell you something about Vince and I have this.
I'm gonna share a real intimate not intimate, but I'm
an inside joke that my husband and I have that
we're the only people who know what this is, and
we kind of love it and share it together. And
I'm going to just tell a few people right now.
And every time we say any kind of corner thing,
I think of this and Vince. So whenever the word
corner comes up, Vincent I say to each other, corner, corner, corner.

(07:58):
And the reason is because we would go to this
like late night diner in Los Felis called House of Pies.
That's like the fucking best, like old school diner. And
there was this chick who was a waitress there who
was like.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
Like late night waitress.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
You could tell she was on like adderon fucking like
buzzing on coffee and shit. She was really cool, but
she was like clearly buzzing. And every time she'd have
hot plates on her. You know when you're a waitress
and you have to say behind you behind you when
you're like behind someone on plates so they don't walk
into you. She would come around the corner with these
hot plates and go corner corner, corner.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
Corner corner.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
So you're think eating your chickenbout hire or whatever, and
you just get hearing corner corner corner, and I just
fucking crack up. So whenever we hear someone say corner,
and this is like three years ago and we're still like,
corner corner corner. Ye, now, I just told everyone, so
let's do corner corner corner time?

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Is it corner corner corner time?

Speaker 1 (08:44):
It is?

Speaker 3 (08:45):
Well, we were at that live show.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
We got to meet some people afterwards, and there were
two different girls who took the time to tell us
that we this podcast met a lot to them because
they were going through a really hard time and that
were like one The one girl said it, I'm sorry,
I don't remember your name. The way you phrased it
was you were these great voices in my head when

(09:08):
I only had bad voices in my head, and it
was so touching to me. But it also was the
same exact thing that a different girl said, and I
was like, I said to her, just so you know,
that's just what someone else said.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
I don't remember this.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
Yeah, that's the first girl said.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
And I was like, someone else just said that, and
then she was like, oh where. I was like I
wanted to go, like go over there.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
And talk to her, but that's weird.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
But it was just very a it was very touching
that we could help somebody that would be in that position.
But b if you are in that position and you
have those feelings, get help, figure out a way to
find a therapist, go online, look it up. It's there's
you know, like it's good to get help for yourself,

(09:52):
and it's good to solve those problems.

Speaker 3 (09:54):
There are solvable problems. We've both been there. And it's
good to have friends too.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
And I have to say the Facebook group is they
those people are everyone's becoming friends and everyone will talk
to you and everyone will help you with something. And
it's like a really good resource for people who who
listen to this because they need help.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
I think, I mean I completely also get help from
a freaking professional. But it is a really cool, Like
I think a lot of people are making friends off
of it.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, it sounds like it.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, and we relate because and we talk about this
all the time, Like, there are lots of podcasts I
listen to that when I listen to them, it like
it's my friends who have their own podcast, or it's
somebody else, you know whatever that I love. But like
I start listening to it and I feel better. I
feel like I'm with people. I like, I feel like
I'm hanging out, Like my loneliness goes away, my anxiety

(10:42):
goes away, and so we get it.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Like, no, laughing at you, I'm laughing at this meme
I saw that says on the top what I'm like
when I listen to podcasts, and it's to say that
it's this billboard of these three cute girls like eating
ice cream and then there's this dude sitting next to
the billboard like laughing along with them and eating a
bowl of ice creamy And it's like me too.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
It's like how you.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Listen to podcasts, which I fucking I'm the same way completely.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah. Yeah. Now we have Laura Kilgaroff corner. Uh, that's
sister sister Sister corner.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
So my sister goes on the Facebook page and tells
me stories that she loves and she has great taste,
So this one is especially awesome, and it's Kristin Michelle
McClure's story that she posts on the Facebook page and
it's fucking crazy. So she says her boyfriend was sick,
so she drove up to mccallister's in Addison, Texas to

(11:34):
pick up some food and iced tea for dinner. And
the parking lot was pretty dark and the only people
there that late were the staff and one woman who
left shortly after she got there. And when she got
her order, she walked outside to see the woman from
before smoking a cigarette and suddenly she comes over to me.
I switched it now it's first person. Suddenly she comes

(11:55):
over to me and says, Hi, Oh my god, it's
so good to see you.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
How have you been?

Speaker 2 (11:59):
And I'm sure I looked very confused as I responded,
I'm sorry. I think you have me confused with someone else.
I don't think I know you, and her voice got
quiet and she said, pretend like you do. There's a
man hiding behind your car. Fucking chills you, guys. I'm
a very observant and spatially aware person, but I never
would have known he was there if it wasn't for

(12:21):
this amazing lady. So I let her walk me to
my car, and as I do, she explains that she
saw him lurking as she was leaving and got a
bad feeling, so she decided to wait for me.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
What an angel, baby.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
That is so incredibly nice and we really need to
be doing that for each other. Yes, sure enough, we
get to my car and a man in a hoodie
stands up from behind my passenger rear side and nonchalantly
walks into the dumpster alley.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Dumpster Alley's we're fucking lurkers, lurk uh uh.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
So as we're saying goodbye, she smiled and said, stay sexy,
don't get murdered.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
What the fuck are the chances.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
A fellow murderino probably saved me from being robbed, assaulted, kidnapped, murdered,
god knows what. And I'm so thankful for her. I
didn't catch her name, but if you're listening, but if
you're reading this, thank you. Let's listen to MFM, drink
wine and catch and watch murder documentaries sometime. So then
there's an update from Cheney Coles.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
With this girl oly sh.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
It's Cheney Coles, Kristen Michelle McClure and Emily Burke and
Cheney Coles is saying, so a lot of you probably
saw Kristen's post yesterday about how a fellow Murderino saved
her when a hooded man was hiding behind her car
at Mcallisters. If you didn't scroll down, it's a crazy story.
I live in Dallas, so I commented that I wanted
to be her friend since we're practically neighbors. A few

(13:45):
chats via Messenger and Facebook friendship later, she and I
and my Murderino best friend Emily met for drinks last
night and discussed all kinds of murders. The tables around
us thought we were weird, but we had a great time.
This podcast and this group makes me so happy. Murderino's
Unite is the last one. And when my sister sent

(14:06):
me that, I started crying and I was like, that's
the cool that idea right there, of somebody noticing something
that might be bad and taking the time to look
out for another person, and the idea that the reason
they might do that is because they were emboldened by
the ship that you and I say it.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
My therapist is trying to make me cry more, and
I'm gonna try to do it because I really want to,
but there's something inside of me that won't let me
do it.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
But stop it, yes, keep going. I'm so proud of us.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
I left therapy the other day and just texted you,
I'm really proud of us.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
You did That's right, okay, but I'm proud of us too.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
I want to cry and well something, I do it.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Now, you do it? I mean Jesus Christ. And you're
like sitting there like I've got to cry on this pod.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
I already did it today, so that's I got it out.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
Of the way.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
I did it at lunch. It's just a cool thing.
It's like, you know, it's the point, the point, just
proud of I'm proud of us.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
Good job, everybody, Good job you guys.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
We fucking did it. We're staying sexy, we're not getting murdered,
We're making friends.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Extending yourself to people who might be in a bad place.
That's kind of like, that's the that's what we're looking
for these days.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
And we're fucking like we're putting those fucking dumpstered alley
lurkers in their place of like, no, you can't fucking
you can't do this dude, no, or.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
You know, maybe that guy was peeing. Either way, that
girl got in her car and got home safe.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
And peers can attack people too, you know, maybe he
was doing both.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
He had a.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Pee and it could have been a pe attack, a
pea a tack Ooh, this has been my favorite murder.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
Goodbye? That was that was gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Oh my phone just told me Robert Durst hearings are
is it tomorrow? It's it's oh, the February fifteenth. Sorry,
it came up as an alert.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Just now. That's really weird. All right, good job.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Hey should we talk about how many minutes was that?
We told people ten minutes?

Speaker 3 (15:58):
What the fuck?

Speaker 2 (16:00):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Sorry, how many minutes?

Speaker 3 (16:02):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (16:03):
My god? Sorry, just started talking to me without me
pressing anything. I think my place is my new place
is haunted. Yes, me too, and we're back. Oh is
this where corner Corner Corner started? It is?

Speaker 2 (16:17):
I don't remember me running away from you at the valet.
What was that whole story? No idea, because I was
like racking my brain of like where were we remember?

Speaker 1 (16:26):
And you stepped off the curb at that restaurant across
from Meltdown and.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Twisted your shebo.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
But also remember the time we were walking out I
think it was Milwaukee Live show and I just stepped
off did the exact same thing.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
I've done it many.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
You don't need a valet to twist your fucking no,
I'll do it anytime. So that Facebook group story that
we talk about in here, to me was the dawning
of the galvanized community vibe of murder Reinos as opposed
to the I'd say the first year is like you
and me blabbing it up, saying whatever the fuck that

(17:04):
came into our minds, not understanding it was being recorded
and posted forever and that we would be hearing about that.
So I think, to me, that was the first year
of like, wait, what are we actually doing?

Speaker 1 (17:15):
And this is before people started realizing that they're coworker
or their sister's friend or they're running club partner is
also listening, right, and then forming a bond over it, right,
And then that Facebook story is almost like then the
bond was I'm going to go out into the world
with this energy. So if I see some weird shit
happening to some girl I don't know, I'm going to

(17:37):
back her up.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
That's right, It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Beautiful thing.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, we're so proud.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
We were just kind of like the thing around which
people decided they were going to do things the way
they wanted to do that.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Here you go, right, all right, well should we get
into it.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
Let's do it.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
This episode is two awful, awful stories of two of
the worst men that have ever existed for real.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
This first one, this is Georgia's story about Nathaniel bar Jonah.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
I think you're first this week.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Okay, so let's start. What was that show called that
you recently told me? The New Detectives? I had a
story and then realized when looking it up that they
had covered the story on that show, not New Detectives,
real Detective, Real Detectives, and so there was so much
more to the story. So I was like, Okay, I'm
still gonna do this, but I'm gonna give a shout

(18:32):
out to the show Karen likes at the same time.
All Right, So, in Worcester, Massachusetts, in nineteen sixty four,
a kid named Nathaniel bar Jonah is seven years old.
He tells a five year old neighbor that he had
just gotten Luigi board and she follows him into his
basement to play with it.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
He attempts to strangle the five year old girl.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
The seven year old attempts to strangle the five year
old girl. She screams his his own mother comes down
and rescues her. So like his mom knows sums up already,
you know what I mean. So this fucking seven year old.
Cuts to six years later in nineteen seventy he's thirteen
years old. He lures another neighbor, a six year old boy,
to a nearby hill, saying that he wants to go

(19:17):
sledding with him, and.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
Of course you didn't go sledding.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
He ends up sexually assaulting the kid, and then in
March nineteen seventy five, seventeen year old Nathaniel Barjonat he's
doing the fucking classic impersonation officer a police officer Abduck's
an eight year old kid named Richard O'Connor who's on
his way to school, sexually assaults and strangles him. A

(19:42):
neighbor saw this happening and notifies the police. They find
a car matching the description in a parking lot. They
get him out of the car, and the kid is
found in the car, near death but alive. So Nathaniel
is a rest did, charged and convicted, but he receives

(20:03):
you ready for this, a year of probation for this crime.
How Yeah, because it's nineteen seventy but okay, probationally kids
not dead.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
I mean he must have had some insane lawyer or
some kind of Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
No, I think that happened. All well, it gets worse. Okay,
that always gets worse. So a few days before he
graduates from high school, he's again impersonating a police officer
and he abducts a nine year old girl who he
assaults savagely in his car and then later throws her
from the car into a sidewalk. She's still alive, and
a witness gets his license plate, which leads to his arrest.

(20:45):
And this assault never gets back to his probation officer,
and so he's released from parole from the earlier assault
in nineteen seventy six, And so when his probationary period
is over, he receives a letter thanking him for his cooperation.

(21:05):
So he never gets no sorry what his parole ends
In seventy six, they catch him and I don't know
if he ever got charged with anything. After they found
the kid after he threw her out of her car,
but the parole officer never finds a probation officer never
finds out about it, so nothing is added to So

(21:26):
that's fun. So in September nineteen seventy seven, he's claiming
to be an undercover FBI agent and he convinces two
boys to get into his car. He goes to a
secluded area with them and he handcuffs them and assaults them,
and he thought he had killed one of the boys,
so he took the other one still alive in his

(21:46):
trunk and drove off, but the kid he thought was
dead was a not dead. He regains consciousness and fucking
finds help and the boy who was kidnapped is found
still alive in Nathaniel's trunk. So he's caught, convicted of
attempted murder and gets the maximum sentence of eighteen to
twenty years in prison, So fucking finally he's being incarcerated.

(22:08):
So while he's incarcerated, he tells a psychologist there about
his fantasies of murder, dissection, and cannibalism. It's a psychiatrist,
and that psychiatrist decides to commit him to the Bridgewater
State Hospital for the sexual predators, which I think means
that you don't have a release state. I think they

(22:28):
can keep you indefinitely. That could be wrong, Guy Brenham,
please let me know. So he stays in the hospital
from seventy nine to ninety one. When there's a hearing
before Superior Court Judge Walter E. Steele, who needs to
be fucking named, two psychiatrists say that Nathaniel Barjona is

(22:50):
a danger to society and he should not be let out.
Two of them said he isn't. So we got two
and two. The judge sides with the I said. The
judge side with the stupid ones and said that he
thought that Nathaniel bar Jonah would not commit the crime
again and decided that the state had failed to prove
he was dangerous. So this dude, fucking Superior Court Judge

(23:10):
Walter E. Steele lets bar Jonah out.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Does his family have money? He must have amazing lawyers.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
I don't think it was that difficult then, though, you
know what I mean, there's no Megan's Law. There's none
of this shit where it like where they think predators
and sexual abusers are even important enough to let their
next door neighbor who has children know that they're there,
like it's not a priority.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Yeah, but it's I mean, these are attacks, they're physical attacks.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
It just be like fin, he attacks a little girl,
throws her out of a car and thanks for thanks
for doing such a great job in your parole, Like
that doesn't even track.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
No, it doesn't. And it's the same we're talking with
guy Brendan, where it's like, well, his intent was to
kill these people, why isn't he kept in prison and
in the same amount of time that someone who had
actually killed them are And it's just because he got
lucky for you know, he just kept getting lucky.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
But I mean, that's beyond lucky where he's not getting
arrested for it, Like he's not even.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
I think it's a fucked up justice system at the time.
I think that's all it is. So he leaves the
institution and he promises to not go back to Massachusetts,
that instead he'll go to Montana. But Megan's Law is
still being debated, it's not it's not enacted yet, which

(24:35):
you know, as everyone knows, Megan's Law is that you
if you're a sexual offender. You have to notify everyone
in the community, and they're allowed to know where you
live and all this.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
So okay.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
So he has weakly garage sales selling Star Wars memorabilia
and stuffed animals that attracts many local children. And let's see,
within a week he commits another attack on a child,
and then da da. No one in Montana's notified of

(25:10):
his past crimes at all. So on February sixth, nineteen
ninety six, ten year old Zachary Ramsey is on his
way to school at about seven thirty am. He takes
his usual school route through the alleyway. And remember those
fucking shortcuts he used to take to school, Like the
shortcuts I used to take as a kid. The amount

(25:30):
of places I could have been murdered in is just
more than I couldn't have been murdered in, you know
what I mean, Like fucking alleyways and like back alleys
and fucking what are those called? Like the dry river beds,
and just these horrible places. And a family who lives

(25:51):
in along the alleyway reports seeing him, but also sees
an off white four door car that nearly runs him over.
Another witness who lived in the area, sees him distressed
with an obese adult male following him a few feet
behind at about seven forty five. Zach then disappears, which
is another thing of fucking. If you see something, fucking

(26:12):
say something. If you see a little kid upset with
a with an adult and something doesn't look right, you
can be rude and be like, is everything okay here?
You know what I mean. You're not going to get
in trouble for it. Let's see okay. So the police
investigate Zach Ramsey's kidnapping, and it turns out that Nathaniel Barjonah,

(26:37):
who was a known sex offender in the area though
there were a lot of them, has access to his
mom's off white Ford or Toyota Corolla the day that
Zach go's missing, and his mother was out of town
for a funeral and so he had the house to himself,
and he also didn't work that day, So he stays
away from the police until ninety nine when he's arrested
near an elementary school in Great Falls, Montana. He's dressed

(27:00):
as a policeman. He's carrying a stun gun and pepper
spray and is like fucking targeting one of the kids there,
and they search his apartment and they find a list
of boys' names, including previous victims that he had actually had,
and the name Zachary Ramsey, the last word of which
was dyed because he had done these crazy.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
Encryptions.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
And so when the FBI finally took a part everything,
they found all of these names. There's dozens of newspaper
clippings found in his apartments following the zach Ramsey case,
and a former roommate said that he found clothes in
his apartments which matched Zachary Ramsey's clothes that he was
wearing the day he disappeared, and bloody gloves. So they
also found encryptied menus referring to cannibalizing children, and there

(27:46):
were actual I don't want to I don't know if
you want to hear them, but like names of meals
that were like puns on children being the fucking on
the venue.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
It's pretty fuck.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
It's like it's almost it's too like it takes too light.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
I don't like it. But it's gross.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Because he thinks he's being like funny. Yeah, it's just
a disgusting sense.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, it's not. It's not amusing in any way, it's
fucked up. And it's also said that he possibly cut
up and serves human meat of his victims to his
neighbors at barbecues and cookouts and stews and Hamburger's. And
there was one woman his neighbor, who said, this tastes
really weird.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
What is this?

Speaker 1 (28:32):
And he said, oh, it's a deer I found and
I cut it up myself. And she remembers, oh, it
tasting weird. I mean, can you have barbecues?

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Fucking imagine the eating disorder you would have if you
were that neighbor.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Can you imagine ever he'd be vegan for the rest
of your life. My god, it's never you meet in.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
I know, it's really horrible.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
I know, okay. And they also find a list of
twenty two names, many which were pasted victims known victims,
but several have never been accounted for. And they also
dug up the yard and found twenty one bone fragments
of a yet to be identified boy, estimated between eight
and thirteen. And it's not zach Ramsey's bones, okay. So

(29:19):
in July two thousand, he's charged with Zach Ramsey's murder
and for kidnapping and sexually assaulting three other boys who
lived above him in an apartment complex, who he would babysit.
Who is the mom would just leave him, leave the
kids with him, even though she was like, yeah, one
of them started acting real weird after I'd let him babysit,
and it's like, I'm didn't you so? But the charges

(29:42):
involving Zach Ramsey's murder are dropped because the Zach's mom
refused to believe that he was dead and so would
testify that Barjona or Nathaniel Barjona never killed her son.
She was going to testify to that. But he's sentenced
for the other charges to a hundre thirty years in prison.
It's for sexually assaulting one kid and torturing another. And

(30:06):
on April thirteenth, two thousand and eight, Nathaniel barjon is
found dead in his prison cell. It's his death is
either a heart attack or a brain clot. I can't
really a lot of different, you know articles, And then
eventually a judge declares Zach Ramsey legally dead in twenty eleven,
despite his mom's still objecting to that. How fucked up

(30:27):
is that.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
It's super fucked up.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
It's like one of those murders. It's like one of
those articles that's like ten serial killers you've never fucking
or ten monsters you've never heard of, and like, why
are you know, why are these other people heard of?
And he's not. He's just as huge of a fucking monster.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Well, that's the real detectives that I saw.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, that was the first one I saw with the
detectives who's like crying.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
It was crazy. And he chased that guy forever and.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
He literally chased he tracked him down. And by the
time I'm somebody said, oh, well that like he kept
hearing oh, they went on the shortcut.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
So he walked the shortcut.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Himself finally, like it was like beat cops were telling
him the information. So he finally himself walked a shortcut
and when he came up the alley, bar Jonas was
standing at the top of the alley dressed like a
security guard across the street from the grammar school, and
the guy in the show is like cut you know,

(31:28):
like and that's when I knew I had my guy.
And the most horrible part, like I looked into that
too of like, oh, would this be a good one
to do?

Speaker 3 (31:37):
There the details are so fucking disturbing. They're really dark.
It's awful.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, it's just like, yeah, it's that kind of thing
where it's like, oh, that's interesting. I feel like maybe
that's a reason why it's he's one that you don't
hear that much about. It's because it's like insanely disgusting
and awful, and he did it to a bunch of kids.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Well, what's so.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Surprising to me about this story? And one of the
reasons I think it's important to talk about is because
Zach Ramsey was taking these shortcuts in nineteen ninety six.
Like it wasn't the eighties or even the early nineties,
which is when I was doing those things. It seems
like more recent. And I feel like he was alone
early in the morning, and I know it seems like
a well traveled place and everyone's going to school. But

(32:18):
you can't.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
You can't do those things. I don't think anyone does anymore.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
And especially because people saw that happening and were like
this is weird and like went on with their day.
It's just so troubling.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
Well, and also that guy dressed he did, I mean,
he was like a real he knew what he was
doing Yeah, like dressing like a security guard, that thing
that people fall for all the time where it's like,
oh it's a cop, it's like security guard. It's the
person standing outside the school that's dressed like an official.
Must be a good person. And to see like, yeah,
it's yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
And also that he did it. I mean the idea
that like his first thing was when he was.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Seven years old, and any information about his childhood and
how you know, it could have not been fucked up
at all. It could just be fucking crazy, but there
had to be something going on that he would try
to strangle a five year old and.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
He was seven. Yeah, it makes you think of Mary Bell.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah, totally just an outright evil kid.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
But also what's happened.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
I mean Mary Bell was a total victim as a
very young child, and that affects you.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
And I wonder what could have happened, Like his mom
found him strangling a little girl, you know, what could
have been done to help him at that age?

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yeah, and clearly nothing was Yeah yeah close. Its so intense. Yeah,
But also the really creepy thing is like seven. It's
like the movie seven where he had all these notebooks,
just tons and tons and tons of notebooks that they recovered.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, that was he obsessively wrote about. I mean he
was Yeah, he was insanely crazy.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
It's like he knew that if he did get caught,
he wanted there to be as much information as possible
so he'd be talked about. Yeah, and then I did it.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
And if you watch that episode of Real Detectives, the
real detective that that solved that case, who talks about it,
like at one point is crying on camera like he
is so clearly it's it's one of those things where
that's the case of a lifetime and horror so horrible.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
Yeah, yep, horrifying.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah, Okay, we're done with that.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
Now, let's let's think about that rep. Are there updates
on this horrible case? Horrible case?

Speaker 1 (34:35):
No updates, but two books have come out recently about
his crimes, Preponderance of Evil, the Nathaniel Barr Jonah Story
by Laurie Olsen and also that book Eat the Evidence
by doctor John E. Esp Those two came out in
the past few years, so if you want more info,
I mean, I've done deep dives since then on this story.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
It's just so awful. But yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
All right, let's get into another terrible fucking person god
and much more famous, much more famous. Let's hear Karen's
story about none other than Rodney Alcala, the Dating game killer.
You want to go?

Speaker 3 (35:17):
You mean leave right now? Mine is.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
Very well known this week. Uh it's Rodney Alcohola.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
The Dating Game Killer.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
This one I've seen, like, I've seen the forensic files
of this guy. I have seen like a twenty twenty,
like almost everything on Discovery I d There's been every
version of one of those shows they have featured.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
This guy because it's the dating game thing. Is such
a fucking that's what did it for his fame? Yeah,
it's so insane.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
But there was one of those shows that kind of
reverse engineered where they followed the victim and now I
don't remember the show. I don't remember which victim it
is because he has so very many, but it's that
thing where basically, this girl goes missing and her family's
trying to find her, family's trying to find her, and

(36:15):
then eventually this cash of photographs because Rodney Alcohola is
a photographer, and when he's finally arrested and they start
going through thousands and thousands of photographs. They find a
picture of her and they finally realize, I think it
was the hiker. She was a hiker and she was
like a real outdoors woman. And then they find a

(36:37):
picture among all these really disturbing pictures.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
And they can't identify all, Like there's so many of
those photos that are like tons, you know what, missing or
cold cases.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
They say they're still online. Okay, so here's the basic
story and we'll start it here. In nineteen seventy eight,
on the popular TV show The Dating Game, host Jim
Lang introduced Rodney Alcohola as Bachelor number one.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
It's a is a successful photographer who got.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
His start when his father found him in the dark
room at age thirteen, fully developed.

Speaker 3 (37:07):
What well, that's the show. Have you ever seen a show?

Speaker 1 (37:10):
But what?

Speaker 2 (37:11):
So it's like sexual innuendo basically, it's basically like the
fun sexual innuendo when you're not a serial rapist and
killer is fun, but when you are is so horrifying.
And the rest of that is between takes, you might
find him skydiving.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
Or motorcycling, We're murdering.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Actor Jed Mills, who was Bachelor number two on the
show and competed against al Caola described him as a
very strange guy with very bizarre opinions. And the funny
thing is the bachelorette, Cheryl Bradshaw, chose alcoholic. He won
the dating game, but when she met him, she refused
to go out with him because she found him so creepy.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
Oh my god, I want to talk to her. She
was right to.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Find him creepy because he had already raped an eight
year old girl and murdered for women when he was.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
On that show for women, already for women, and then
he's like, I'm gonna go on TV in hockey.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
So he was basically mid killing spree that had started,
they believe in well, he raped the eight year old
girl in nineteen sixty eight and then the killing began
soon after, and he's in the middle of all that,
goes on.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
A game show.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
So yeah, he's completely out of his goddamn mind and
kind of like Luke Magnotty, like it's that thing of
like I want to be famous, I want.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Everyone to see me, like you can't catch me.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, I'm smart, I'm smarter than everybody. He did have
one hundred and sixty IQ, so he kind of was
smarter than everybody in a way, So he committed his
first known crime. In nineteen sixty eight, a motorist in
Los Angeles called the police after watching him lure an
eight year old girl named Tally Shapiro into his Hollywood apartment.

(38:58):
The girl was found a lot I've raped and beaten
with a steel bar, but Alcohola had already fled, so
to evade the resulting arrest warrant, he left the state
and he enrolled in NYU Film School under the name
John Berger, where he studied under Roman Polanski. Oh oh,

(39:21):
then he obtained In nineteen seventy one, he got a
counseling job at a new Hampshire arts camp for children
using a different alias, John Berger. But in June of
nineteen seventy one, Cornelia Crilly, a twenty three year old
trans TWA flight attendant, was found raped and strangled in

(39:44):
her Manhattan apartment. That Cornelia's murder would remain unsolved.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
For forty years.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Holy shit.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
So she was one of the ones that when they
found the pictures, they started putting it up all together.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
Like this person was missing or murdered.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
We don't know.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
Oh yeah, God, So.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Now alcohol is on the uh in nineteen seventy one,
he goes on the ten most Wanted Fugitives list, and
a few months later, two children who were at this
arts camp that he got the job at, they notice
his photo on an FBI poster at the post office
and they finger him some kids. So he's extradited to California.

(40:23):
But by then that eight year old girl that he
had attacked, her parents had relocated the entire family to
Mexico and they weren't coming back, so they were unable
to convict him of rape and attempted murder, so the
prosecutors were forced to permit him to plead.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
To a lesser charge of assault. So he's paroled after
thirty four months and.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Assault, yeah, he basically, if it's the same thing, if
he demonstrated evidence of rehabilitation, he got out early.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
It's nice for thirty four months, and you can get
out whenever the fuck you.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Want, right, So two months after his release, he's rearrested
after assaulting a thirteen year old girl who he had
offered a ride to school and she thought she was
just getting a ride to school. And again he's paroled
after serving two years of an indeterminate sentence. So After
that release from prison, a la parole officer takes the

(41:28):
unusual step of permitting this repeat offender and known flight
risk to travel to New York City. Now irritating, but
if he has one hundred and sixty IQ and he's
this level psychopath, he's probably incredibly charming and incredibly yal
So he's he's you know, he just sucks. He makes

(41:52):
it work. Yeah, it's crazy. Well, a lot of people
just aren't aren't capable of handling this level.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
This is like it's super villain's.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
It's savvy as fuck, and even a person who's of
normal intelligence don't understand the like the nuances of manipulation.
Probably right.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Have you seen the show Good Behavior with the girl
who's the who's Mary from Downton Abbey.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
No, it's really good.

Speaker 1 (42:19):
Is it? I love when we do TV show recommendation.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
It's well and also so in it, she's like a
con woman and she does these things like she started
off being a common because she was addicted to drugs,
but now she's doing it just to get money, and like.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
You you watch it, it's really good.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
But she does these things and it's you see how
easy it would be to fall for it, because like
she'll go in and she'll she has a really nice
outfit on, and she looks like she has a lot
of money and she's like a high end resort and
then she's like shopping for jewelry.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
So she'll be like, oh, can I see that there?

Speaker 2 (42:49):
My husband wants My husband said I could get one thing,
and so I'm gonna pick it. And so while the
guy she's shopping and chatting and giggling and they're drinking champagne.
And then she's making the guy go get her things
away from the counter, and while he's gone, she's just
loading her purse with the jewelry she's trying on. But
she's doing these switch arounds. So she's like never you

(43:10):
know what I mean, It's all very believable, and then
she walks out. He's not going to know anything is
gone until way later. And it's that's what it makes
me think of, or.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
Did she see the movie Paper Moon. It's one of
my favorite movies in.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
The world with the O'Neal family.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
And O'Neill and they do that and it's there they're
grifters and it's just one of my absolute favorite movies.
And you would never fucking know what that's feeling.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
It's so good.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Well, that's because you have to be good to get
away with it, and that's how you're good.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
Casual. He has to be casual about.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
It, and you have to be like friendly and kind
of charming and alluring. So people are like, oh, no,
it would never be her. The pretty Yeah, they're probably
good looking.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Like, I get nervous that people think I'm shoplifting even
when I have no intention and I'm never going to shoplift.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
I'm like, I'm not tough a fag. You have to
be pretty fucking.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
You have to be like she seely but also like
super charming. So clearly that's this guy. So he convinces
his parol officer to let him go to New York
and while he's there, a week after he gets to Manhattan,
he kills Ellen Jane Hover, who is twenty three and
the daughter of the owner of CEO's, which is a
Hollywood night club.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
She was the.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Goddaughter of Dean Martin and Sammy Davis Junior. She was
like an heiress. She had a lot of money, and
her remains were found buried on the grounds of the
Rock este the Rockefeller estate in Westchester County.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
How did he even get in there?

Speaker 3 (44:33):
Well, it's probably no idea.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
He probably went to like a club and she was there,
and he's you see pictures of him, he's super creepy.
Now you see pictures of him in Jealmy is like
really long, like salt and pepper, creepy, curly hair, Ramen,
dry ramen. But you know, back then it was like
the late seventies and it was that kind of looking

(44:56):
for mister Goodbar era of like pickup club and everyone
was like post hippie, you know, feeling it era.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
But he also did the thing where he was a photographer.
He was playing like the artist side for a little while.
He worked at the La Times as a type setter,
and he was at one point interviewed by the members
of the Hillside Strangler Task Force as part of their
investigation when they were interviewing known sex offenders. He was

(45:31):
ruled out as the Hillside Strangler, but he got arrested
and served a brief sentence from marijuana possession, so they
got him for that, thank god.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
But he also during this time he convinced.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
A bunch of young men and women that he was
a professional fashion photographer and photographed them for his portfolio.
And he showed that portfolio to his coworkers at the
LA Times, and there were people who are quoted as
saying they should I thought it was weird, but I didn't,

(46:05):
you know, I didn't know because he said he was
like a fashion photographer, and so I just remember there
was a bunch.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
Of naked girls.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
Oh, and he would show it to people like, this
is my this is my portfolio.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Creepy. It's so fucking creepy.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
So he's totally flaunting it, and of course everyone's just like, oh,
I guess that's high fashion photography. So in nineteen seventy nine,
he knocks, he knocks unconscious and rapes fifteen year old
Monique Hoyt as she's posing for him for one.

Speaker 3 (46:41):
Of those shoots.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
And then he goes on the Dating Game, which wasn't
also and I believe nineteen seventy and around that same time,
and they think that because or he was on the
Dating Game in nineteen seventy eight, so they think.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
Because of that.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Rejection of the girl now on the dating game being like,
there's no fucking way I'm going out with that guy.
Because right after that, a twelve year old girl from
Huntington Beach named Robin Samsoe disappeared on her way between
the beach and ballet class. It was June twenty, nineteen

(47:22):
seventy nine when this happened. Twelve days later, her deep
composing body was found in the Los Angeles Foothills.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
I know I did.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
I did something like that, a guy saying I'm a
photographer when I was like seventeen, not like eighteen, and
you did what. I went and took the photos with
him in the fucking Santa Monica Mountains.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Holy shit.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
There. I've never told anyone this. There's this guy should
have killed me, but.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
He just took pictures of you and drove you home. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
He was a regular at this restaurant I was working
at and was like he came in all the time
and he's like, I'm a photographer. I thought to take
photos of you, and I'm like okay. And we went
up to Santa Monic Hills and that was when I
was like, oh shit, I'm alone with this guy in
the fucking forest in the fucking hills overlooking the ocean,
and like there was he was so nice at the
restaurant and the minute his eye went to the camera lens,

(48:17):
he looked fucking Elia, Remember, thinking you need to fucking
this is not okay. And so I kept asking about
his mom, and he kept telling about his mother, and
it was almost like I was I kind of knew
something was not right and I needed to talk to
him a lot. And then we just went home. But
my heart was racing the whole time, and I don't
know what happened to him, and I kind of just

(48:38):
I think I quit soon after that. It was just
that I should have been dead. That's insane, I know,
and I'm so embarrassed of that that I don't tell
people that, but it reminds me so much of the story.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
Right.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Well, also because there's a there's another guy that's on
like I've seen like three different you know, ID Discovery
things about the guy that he would have approach women
in malls and say that he was a photographer, that
he was casting director, right, he wanted to take their
picture because he was casting for the latest was it Batman,

(49:10):
I don't know, or some like the latest big movie.
And they would go meet him and then they would
disappear and they were meeting him at.

Speaker 3 (49:18):
Houses that were for sale.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Oh I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
Yeah, So he was going in and basically meeting them
in empty like houses that he knew that the real
estate agent like was shown he would go have it
shown to him, have to meet them there, and then
attack them there. And he had killed a couple of
girls and then one girl got away and that's how
he got caught.

Speaker 3 (49:39):
So it's this exact same thing.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
And I mean, as I don't want to say, I
feel so stupid. But I was like eighteen, and like
I was new to LA and I was so flattered
that someone wanted to take my photo and it was
the nineties, and I didn't understand, and I thought I
knew this person. I would He's so nice all the time.
And so when I say fuck politeness, it's because I've
done a shit that have probably been really like unsafe,

(50:02):
and it's just I want to cry thinking about it.
I feel so fucking stupid ra having done that.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, but that's the whole manipulation, is that they're playing
on like we're then we're supposed to be embarrassed that
we had, you know, the pride. Oh, who are we
to think that we'd have our picture taken, when actually
that's that's the play.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
That's the whole thing. Is how they get you is.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Like, of course you're flattered, and then you have a
little ego stroke and then oh my god, maybe I
am a model and it's all those things that then
it's the shame of that that's supposed to like keep
you quiet, yeah, and fuck that shit. It's like it
that's that's what they're doing, and that's what.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
They're doing to you.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Any human being that gets that kind of special attention
is going to go, oh my god, yeah, I want
that special attention.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
That's what we all want.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Yeah, that's everybody wants to be told that they're pretty
and want, you know, have their picture taken, and that's
it's the easiest way to manipulate people.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
And I just remember the moment it took a turn
and I got scared and realized something was not right.
Thank fu God, nothing happened.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
Yeah, sorry, go on anyway.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
So Robin SAMSO's friends uh told the police that a
stranger had approached them at the beach asking to take
their pictures, and they circulate a sketch of the photographer.
Alcohol's parole officer recognizes him in this sketch, and then
they search his house in Monterey Park and they find

(51:29):
a rental receipt for a storage locker in Seattle. So
then they go into that storage locker and they find
a pair of Robin Samson's earrings. So he's basically killing
people taking the Why don't I ever remember the word
for trophy? Yeah, the trophy. But then he's keeping it
like in a different state. So he's arrested in nineteen

(51:53):
seventy nine, held without bail. He's tried, convicted, and sentenced
to death for Robin SAMSO's murder, but the verdict overturned
because jurors had been improperly informed of his prior sex crime.
No So. Then in nineteen eighty six, seven years later,
they retry him for the same It's the identical trial

(52:14):
except for omission of the prior record, and he's convicted
again and sentenced to death again. And the Ninth Circuit
Court of Appeals panel nullifies.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
The second conviction.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Why in part because a witness was not allowed who
was not allowed? No sorry, a witness was not allowed
to support Alcohola's contention that the park ranger who found
Samsu's body had been quote hypnotized by police investigators. So
there was somebody that wanted to alcohola said this park

(52:49):
ranger was hypnotized by the police. That's why he's saying
this happened. He had a friend who was going to
back him up, and they were like, no, your friend
doesn't get to say that. And then they find once
they find that out there, like the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
Has to go. So they keep getting it.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
Like on these weird little details, all right, and this goes.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
I mean he's in prison the whole time though, right
he is.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Yeah, he's held without bail.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
I'm not sure if you ask me details about this,
I'm not going to be able to tell you.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
I threw this together so quickly. But this is the
kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
You can look up his name and watch one thousand
shows about him because he's he basically they say he's
like because of these pictures and the cold cases that
they believe are.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
Associated with these pictures.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
He's only he only goes to jail for for murders,
but they think he's responsible for over one hundred.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
They just can't prove it over one hundred. Worst.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
He's one of the worst serial killers ever and he's
still alive and in jail, he's.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
Going to keep appealing. I keep seeing him in I
keep seeing him getting older and older and like, yes,
news photos, I mat that.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
Crazy hair, well he does. He has all these and
it's crazy because he's again one of those geniuses.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
That's like at one point he represents himself and then
cross examines himself and is talking in a deep voice
as one person and then his own voice and the
other Like it's that kind of total insanity.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
Thing that you you know, it's what that's Ted Bundy.
He represented himself.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
They all kind of think like it's they just think
they're invincible and that they're the smartest people in the world.
But essentially, in two thousand and three, Orange County investigators
they learned alcoholis DNA had matched semen left at the
rape murder scenes of two women in Los Angeles, and
that's when they start linking cold case DNA to this guy,

(54:55):
and it led to his indictment for the murders of
four additional women. Jill Barcom, who's eighteen, a New York
runaway who has found rolled up like a ball in
a Los Angeles ravine in nineteen seventy seven. They thought
she was a victim of the Hillside stranglers. Georgia Wicksted
twenty seven, who was bludgeoned in her Malibu apartment in
nineteen seventy seven, which is super weird because Malibu is

(55:19):
so fucking tony and high end, and this is that
thing of like like that the sister Ciro's heiress, who
he clearly was able to like be in and out
of very tony, high end places. And with those kind of.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
People, you don't break into a like high end Malibu location.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
No, you talk your way in, like I feel weird
to the Starbucks in Malibu, Like you just feel like
you don't.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Belong totally, and they know it.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
Charlotte Lamb was thirty one, she was raped and strangled
in the laundry room of her Elsa Gundo apartment complex
in nineteen seventy eight. And Jill Parento, who's twenty one,
who was killed in her Burbank apartment in nineteen seventy nine.
And all of these bodies were found posed in carefully
chosen positions, which I think then they eventually led to

(56:09):
understanding that he was posing them and taking pictures of them.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
And they found another pair of earrings in the Seattle
storage locker that matched Charlotte Lamb's DNA, So they're kind
of it all starts hooking back over and over. So
eventually the police find a collection of more than a
thousand photographs and they are mostly of women and teenage
boys in sexually explicit poses. In his third trial in

(56:38):
two thousand and three, prosecutors enter emotion to join the
Samso charges with those of the four newly discovered victims,
and so his attorneys, of course tried to contest it,
like you basically saying you can give benefit of the
doubt or whatever they call it, reasonable doubts for one,

(56:59):
but you can't do it with four. But they ruled
in the prosecution's favor, and February of twenty ten he
stood trial on five joined charges.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
He believe was so recent.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
I know, it's not weird.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
It seems like it should have been so long ago
this happened because he was.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
Doing it for so fucking long.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
But I think it was that thing of they had
him on one and he was in jail for one,
and then suddenly it was that DNA era that came through,
and it was all of a sudden and That's what
that was. When all those specials come out, is like
in those late in the late nineties, were like they
just found this guy. A lot of them have that
feel to it of like this guy heard me. When

(57:44):
he was his own lawyer. He showed the jury a
portion of his nineteen seventy eight appearance on The Dating
Game in an attempt to prove that the earrings that
were found in that Seattle locker were his.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Own and not SAMSO's.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
And they end up bringing Jed Mills, actual number two
to this trial.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
The fuck so that he.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Can say I would have remembered if a guy was
wearing earrings. It was nineteen seventy eight, he was not
wearing earrings.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
Fuck yeah. It is that crazy.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
And then eventually they get Talia, the eight year old
girl that he had raped in the late sixties, and
she comes and testifies.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
So that they can keep this guy in jail. Holy shit.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
In March twenty ten, the Huntington Beach and New York
City Police departments released one hundred and twenty of his photographs,
seeking the public's help to identify the people in them,
in hope of determining if any of the women and
children he photographed were additional victims. There are nine hundred
additional photo photos that could not be made public because
they were too sexually explicit.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
So he was like a fucking my.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Kittious kitty porn you know, like pornographer, exploitive pig.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
Obviously.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
The police reported that approximately twenty one women had come
forward to identify themselves, and six families said that they
believe they recognized loved ones who had disappeared years ago
and were never found back. They saw their missing loved
ones in these photos, but none of the photos were
unequivocally connected to a missing person case or an unsolved

(59:23):
murder until twenty thirteen, when a family member recognized the
photo of Christine Thornton, who was twenty eight whose body
was found in Wyoming in nineteen eighty two.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
I did not even hear about this.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
Yeah, And as of September twenty sixteen, last year, one
hundred and ten of those original photos remain posted online
and the police continue to solicit the public's help with
further identifications.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Let's all go to them, right fucking now.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
In twenty sixteen, he was charged with this nineteen seventy
seven murder of a woman who was identified through one
of those photos, and just uh in closing, which I
find fascinating and interesting, his diagnoses when he was in court.
The psychiatrist diagnos him as having a narcissistic personality disorder

(01:00:14):
and malignant narcissistic personality disorder with psychopathy and sexual sadism.
CO morbidities, Jesus co morbidities.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
That's the fucking trifecta. You don't you don't want to
end up with.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
You don't want the word co morbidities anywhere near you?

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Now?

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Do you want to know what it means?

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
It's the presence of one or more additional diseases or
disorders co occurring, uh, including including just sounds.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
Worse liking dead bodies.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Maybe No, I think morbid just is like gruesome or something.
We'll have to ask, Guy Brown.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
We will have to ask. I'm sure everyone will tell
us on Twitter.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Uh. That was not the greatest version of trying to
tell the Rodney al kyleist.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
That was very That was very detailed.

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
Did I do all right?

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
You did a great timeline, really interesting. I had some
personal information to share as well.

Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
I liked that, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
It actually gets worse than that and I'll tell you afterwards.
But oh no, no, I know, yeah, that was a
good story.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Well, I just recommend anybody that's if you are slightly interested,
take a deep dive because he is uh, really horrifying
and and kind of what another one of those lesser
known but very depraved and horrifying monster people.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
This was an episode of monster people. Monster people for sure.
From the depths of the fucking hell. Yeah, plus the
dating game.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
Plus the dating game plus the Pacific Northwest is always
a mix in there somehow, you know, it just has
to be in there.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Depressing.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Oh they were back.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Karen updates the updates, so it was eventually confirmed that
Rodney Alcala killed at least seven women and young girls.
He was sentenced to death in California. He died of
natural causes in July of twenty twenty one while awaiting
that execution, and then after his death, a woman named
Morgan Rowan reached out to investigator Steve Hotel to share

(01:02:20):
details of her nineteen sixty eight attack. She was sixteen
at the time and she had met Alcala on a
few different occasions. She was attacked and raped at his house,
and her friends broke into the room to rescue her
and then he fled. Oh my god, so she said
she was ashamed to tell her parents. She never reported
the attack, thing that happens a lot to women. Six

(01:02:42):
weeks after, she learns of his attack, rape, and the
survival of Tally Shapiro, and she of course struggles with
guilt for decades. Eventually she connects with Tally and apologizes,
and when she does, Tally tells her there was nothing
to forgive. Wasn't her fault. And these two survivors, they

(01:03:03):
live a few hours apart in California, but they remain
chosen family to each other.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
There's a documentary about it, and these strong, incredible women
are in it, and it's just I highly recommend it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Also during the story, I talked about my experience at
eighteen with that guy who drove me to the Santa
Monica Hills to take my picture. So I've discussed it
in our books Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered in
the Fuck Politeness chapter I also talk about on episode
four seventy two, give Me all my words. So there
you go.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
I think that in doing that, though, I think you
were in a gray area where you get to speak
for people who if you've had experiences that in your mind,
you've always filed it as less than bad, less than
of friends, less than a different story that you've heard,
that you're always mitigating your own trauma process basically by saying,

(01:03:56):
don't worry about it because it's not bad, and you
gave yourself and then other people permission to go it's
as bad as I say it was to me because
it happened to me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
And then also yeah, for sure, and then also the
understanding that I have of so many moments in my
life that I'm sure we all do of like by
the skin of my teeth, Yes, like what could have happened?
And I think about that so much, and I'm embarrassed
and ashamed, and so I don't talk about it because
I think it's my fault. I'm stupid for having done that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
Yeah, but that's.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Not That's not how we talk about ourselves and our experiences.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
No, And it's certainly not the way the women of
today do it. They don't do that to themselves. So
us gen xers and late millennials and all the people
that were raised on that bullshit can really just put
it aside. I think from now on definitely. Yeah, okay,
let's listen to the end of episode fifty four.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
How about a good thing?

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
How about a good thing?

Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
How about it?

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
I did my apartment like my new apartment last time.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
It's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
Thank you really, like, why don't you? Oh no, I
did the Chacoozi Cat last time.

Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
Jacuzi Cat, And I saw your picture on my instagram.
On Jacuzzi Cat is real heart stark, it is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
My Instagram, and there's a fucking sweet picture of Chocoozi Cat,
who I've seen since gos. The Chacoozy Cat is legit
and he's so chill.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
Legit in the real deal.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
I guess I've already bragged now twice at you about
my best thing. But my best thing is just it's
so fun to work on a job right now. It's
just fun to perform again on TV. It's really fun
to have a fake eyelashes.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
On holiday long.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
I love fake eyashes.

Speaker 3 (01:05:39):
Aren't they the best?

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Oh my god, they make you like a queen.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
Yeah, it's pretty fun.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
And for me, like it's just a period of I
just didn't think I was going to be performing anymore,
and like, yeah, ten years ago, if you would asked
me if any of these things would be happening, I'd
be like.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
You're insane.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
I'm stuck in an office building in bourbonk and I
will never leave here. So I'm very I feel grateful
and like kind of just excited, and I don't know,
I'm happy. I feel fingernails, fingernails, fingernails about it?

Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
What's that mean? Ohil like kind of fancy?

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
I'm like, oh yeah, maybe I should have a manicure,
Like I should try.

Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
You need to. I've been in like a bit.

Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
I've said this a million times, but I've been in
a I've been in a cave for almost a decade,
and then look.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
At you coming out of it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
Look at me out of the cave.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
I love it, and I saw because of nails. Probably
the thing I love is and I tried about it
is I've been posting political stuff on Instagram and Twitter,
and you're how scary it is to do that, because
you're immediately refreshing to see people saying mean stuff to you.
But so many people have been saying really nice things.
And the ACLU is a fucking entity that I'm so

(01:06:48):
happy to donate too and to and that are fighting
for us, And so I started crying when I saw
all the like positive comments from people on my political posts.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
I just want to read one thing because you wrote
this tonight and I retweeted it. Oh, I thank you
because it's beautifully written, and it's exactly right with all
this stuff that's happening in our country right now, which
is incredibly scary. And I have a lot of friends
who like talk about all the time. We're like, I
don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
What to do. This is insane, this is insanity. This
is so scary. And you tweeted this tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
You said, we have an amazing opportunity to atone for
the atrocities past generations inflicted on those deemed different and undesirable,
and then you did the hashtag love Trump's hate, And
it really feels like that's what's happening right now is
those people that are fucking taken to the streets, who
when somebody puts down a Muslim band in order to

(01:07:42):
say that certain people can't come to this fucking country,
people immediately show up in the streets going no fucking way.
That's and to see it happening, I mean that I
sat in the grocery store parking lot, staring at my
phone for.

Speaker 3 (01:07:58):
An hour and crying, going.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
Holy for all these people, It's so empowering and like,
up until like a week ago, I was not looking
at articles. I was feeling so beat down. And maybe
it's because my my lexapro got doubled, I don't know.
But suddenly I'm feeling really like positive and empowered and
not scared of reading these articles and like excited to

(01:08:20):
be part of it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
We've been told for a year that the majority wants this,
and basically people are showing up in the streets to
say the majority does not want this. I am here
to say I don't want this. It's an amazing, beautiful thing,
and you see it now. The thing that people are
tweeting tonight is showing all these people that are protesting
at these airports, and they're protesting at airports in the.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
Middle of the country.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
People keep tweeting, Oh, look at these look at these
coastal elites in the middle of Kansas, in the middle
of you know, wherever they were.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
It was like the it was like a joke.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
A couple of different people made the coast an elitees
joke because it was an airport in Texas, it was
an airport in Wyoming.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Well, you know it's so great too, is that I
feel like for years, in every administration, there's been so
many things that should that people are up in arms about,
and that everyone's like, what do we do about this?
And nobody's protested because it's you don't have to do
it's not big enough, there's not enough people, there's not
this army to protest with. And suddenly it feels like
we're not letting these things happen now, and it's there's

(01:09:26):
definitely things that in the past should have been protested
like this and haven't been. And now everyone knows there
is a way for every single person to get involved,
and it's kind of it's empowering to when everyone's like,
I don't know what to do, and it's like, here
are five things you can do. Just go online and
there's protests, you can donate money, you can donate time,
you can you know, tweet something called, make phone calls.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
It's it's just there's a lot to do. You can
express yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
But it is very I love the fact that it
kind of kicked off with the Women's March and all
the Women's March is being five times bigger than they
all they thought any of them are going to be.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
But then this.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
These airport protests watching and it's people I know that
are out there watching people show up by the thousands
to say you cannot do this to people is beautiful
and that's what we have to remember, you, that's what
we have to remember. That's the majority. Yeah, that is
truly the majority.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
Yeah, and then maybe again, maybe it's lexipher, but I'm
fucking over my fear and anxiety of protesting.

Speaker 3 (01:10:27):
Like I'll be I'll be out there. Oh, being in
a crowd.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Yeah, it's hard to be in a crowd, I know,
but it's necessary. Now now I realize it's fucking necessary,
and I don't care if I get a little overwhelmed
by it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
It's well, it could be beautiful too, Yeah, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
It's funny. Our good things could be translated into today, yes,
with seamlessly.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Unfortunately, it's just like such a strange loop that we
are in, and it is so weird, like the exact
same topics. It's just like the proper nouns are being
switched out for it's a different group of people being
targeted it's a different group of people.

Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
It's so shitty.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
Look, we love progress, not perfection, but can we get
a little bit so please progress?

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
Great?

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
Some imperfect progress would be incredible. All right, Well it's
time to rename this episode. This one was originally entitled
Valet Area.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
But if we're naming it today, maybe we would call
it yip Yap. It does not sound like anything you
would ever say.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
Yeah, we're gonna yip yap in Georgia jokes that people
who aren't into it will join in twenty minutes. Great,
ye skippers, skippers. We also do, of course, corner Corner Corner.
That's the one that it feels thematically, feels like it's
really there.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
Now we know it'd be a part of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
So and then also Guy Brendan, please let me know.
And we're not going to say goodbye right now here
in twenty twenty five, because in twenty seventeen, I think
we did a pretty damn good job.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
It's one of the best things we do on this episode.

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
So thanks for listening to Wined. We appreciate you.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
Yeah, come back next week.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Thanks for listening. Go to my favorite murder dot com
if you are so inclined I don't know. We're on
Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. I don't know. I want it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
You listen.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Thanks for listening. I mean you don't do do any
of those things. Yeah, appreciate listening.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
We really appreciate you listening.

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
And please stay sexy, don't get murdered. Bye bye, Elvis.
You want to cook?

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
Key, Mimi, it's your big chance.

Speaker 3 (01:12:29):
Do you want to cook? You want cookie? That was Elvis,
all

Speaker 1 (01:12:35):
Right, and Steven, thank you for being awesome.

All Episodes

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 54: Valet Area

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

Popular Podcasts

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 54: Valet Area