Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 55: Let's Hear Your Podcast - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new
commentary and updates and insight.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Today we're recapping episode fifty five. Let's Hear your Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
After the colon of that would be shut the fuck up,
Facebook or something along those lines, go.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
To Let's Hear your podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Oh yeah, all this feedback for sure. Okay, so this
episode came out February ninth, twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Oh a little baby, so long ago. Let's listen to
the intro of episode fifty five.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Hi, how are you?

Speaker 1 (00:50):
How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Hi? Is that supposed to sound conversational or just into
like simultaneous? Can?

Speaker 1 (00:58):
I be honest, I don't know what doing?

Speaker 2 (01:00):
I don't either, but I like the arm raised part.
I think it's kind of like a and we're off.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Like a conductor, like we're conductors and an extra yeah,
a murder orchestra.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Now I think this is like episode fifty five and
we still haven't figured out how to start this stupid
fucking podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
It's really it's space.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
It's like episode three though, because this is the third
episode in my new apartments. That's right, third or second
three third, thirsh third.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
You're not getting used to it, you know, like we
don't know. It's just gott to.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Feel it out. It's definitely different.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
It's different. I can see the kitchen.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
I'm staring at that. There's totally new lines.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, oh weird.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
It's big. It's definitely a bigger space. Yeah. It feels
like we have to fill more.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
It doesn't feel like mine yet, so like we're podcasting
at a stranger's house, right, Like, I don't want to
spill anything on the couch.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
I love this couch, by the way, thank you. It's
really good.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
I wanted I got a deal on it. Yeah, it's
very smart of you.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Thank you. Kia guys, Hey, Hi, hi oh hi. This
is the furniture Hour.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
This is introspection evening.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
This apartment introspection.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
I would like to say, just as a kicker offer,
I got in a lot of trouble that I haven't
yet watched the Slenderman documentary from one Miss Julie Klausner
really who I saw last week because she did Guys
Show when I was working on it, and it was
the first thing she said to me is, oh my god,
can you believe the slender Man.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
But I love that about people now, is that the
first thing they talked to about is murder.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
And they're so mad when you don't know what they're
talking about or that you haven't watched.

Speaker 3 (02:43):
Okay, can I just say love Juli Klausner her book
I Don't Care about Your Man. Amazing, She's fucking That
was the stupidest fucking documentary.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Oh girl, dude.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yes, it just was like shots fired, shots fired.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
It was a really cool documentary about psychological issues that
the two girls establish it out of their friends. You had, yes,
But as far as like the folklore of the slender Man,
it just like wasn't compelling. It was cool, Like there were.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Two different documentaries.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
One was about like, uh, creepy pasta and like cool
stories that people online write about like creepy things, yes,
and one was about two girls who have some serious
mental issues.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Right, So I just didn't love it.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
You were you looking for more of that slender man
folklore story and you and it just was too much
of real people.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
No.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
I knew I already I went in knowing it wouldn't
be that, it wouldn't I wouldn't be happy with it. Right,
because I'd write about it a lot, and like I
love the old like black and white photos that like
purportedly show slender Man in the background and it's fucking.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Cool as shit.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Wonderman is the fakest of all of those. Like, first
of all, creepypasta, I want to get into it and anytime,
you know, like Last Podcast on the Left has episodes
that where they read listeners creepypastas, and I can practically
see the fourteen year old boy writing it at his desk,
like it is so because some you get kind of
hooked in. There was one I remember one not on

(04:09):
that podcast, but one time reading by myself at home,
and it was about these guys that had found this
hole and it on the website. I think I may
have found it on Reddit, I can't remember where. It
was like guys who found a hole that they kept
going into. They were like basically caving and then it's
like they basically climbed in at one point really far

(04:31):
and kind of got stuck and then something came at
them the end.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
They're like they're made up horror stories or like creepy stories,
and that's cool, but yeah, it's like a.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Little well The problem is that with all storytelling, the
hardest part is the ending. The hardest part is why
are you telling this whole thing? What is it going
to lead up to?

Speaker 1 (04:51):
And commas?

Speaker 3 (04:52):
Which are They're lacking endings and commas.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
And maybe accurate spelling.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Accurate spelling and punctuation.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
The whole thing is basically a visit to a junior
high class I never had to be in because I'm
too old.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
If I were twenty and I could read this shit
and the Internet like existed in its form, now, yeah
I would be.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
I would be so obsessed. Yeah, but I'm not and
I can't and I won't.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
And you and for this slender Man, it's like, well,
I never heard one hint or hair of slender Man
when I was growing up, which means this isn't even
based in reality. It's not like an old witch that.
It's like, did you hear about that?

Speaker 1 (05:29):
Did you hear about the Blair Lady Mary? Bloody Mary?

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Did you hear tell this slender Man is as It's
almost like they did. They did some test focused groups
at the mall of like what would scaryo really tall
skinny man.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
In the back of the playground hot topic yes, which
I work there. I'm not trying to actually I am
talking shit, but I worked there too, so fuck you.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
It's it's kind of like Jack Skellington's head got stretched.
Instead of Jack Skellington being sweet with a big round
punkin head, his head got stretched and he turned straight
aually evil and he just decided to lurk.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
The best part of this documentary to me was the
girl who ends up having like serious mental issues that
stab their friend, which I think is an interesting story
if you're in a true crime. The mother, her mother
that they interview, like there's something mentally wrong with her,
Like she's a kind of like crazy in this really
subtle way, and like that study to me, like watch

(06:25):
it if you're into that, like and tell me what's
going on there, because she's trying to be so empathetic
but it's so creepy and not right. It's like if
Ted Bundy were trying to be empathetic, like when he
has that weird interview and you're like, something is off here.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Wait, hold on, knock, knock, knock, Yes, who is it? Oh,
we are being sued by the mother of the slender
Man child murderer.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
It's your fucking name man. Well, I think their name is slenderman.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, but also isn't that what everybody's watching any of
those things for? Is like basically you're the armchair psychologist
and you're watching because it's like, yeah, you're right too,
two twelve year old girls as intense as being in
junior high for girls is. And I would I will,
literally and truly We've talked about it a million times.
Would not go back for five million dollars. I would
never go back.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
I'm five million one mine. Well, now you would expend
it by the time you got our age. That's your stupid,
fucking idiot when you're home.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
But it doesn't happen out of nowhere, And so there
are those weird combinations of things that happen if like
if you don't have I'm like, thank god I had
an older sister that told me to shut up all
the time, because then I actually did shut up some
of the time. Yeah, and so I didn't suffer ninety
nine percent.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah, thank god I had a mom and a sister
who made me feel so bad about myself that I
was scared to say anything. Yes, and so I didn't
say most of the shit yeah, and it's it's true.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
I mean I yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
Also turns out Wlouchester, it's not it's Woosta.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Did you know that.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
I wouldn't have known it from spelling.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
It's Worcester.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
It's spelled Worcester. Yeah, and it's pronounced Wooster.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think you have to do the like Woosta.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, you have to talk talk like Marky Mark Wahlberg.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
I didn't know how am I supposed to know?

Speaker 2 (08:14):
We are from California?

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, yeah, No, people who live in.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Boston are from Boston. Get real up in arms about Woolster.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
That's corrections corner. Oh okay, do you have any uh not?

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Offhand? I think we totally nailed it last week. There's
not one thing that we said incorrect except except.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Also, I haven't.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
I haven't. Admittedly, I've been working so much that I
haven't been able to be online.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Or make any mistakes or make mistakes.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
I've just been I nail it, you know. I feel
like when I work, I just nail it constantly.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
Like you don't have time to think, and so your
brain isn't like second guessing.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
You can get my own way. I just like naturally good.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
You're the one.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
You're just being you. You guys, always be you unless
you're a murderer. Does that I mean yeah?

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (09:08):
Is it yeah that you just made No, it's like
it's not mine. Always be yourself unless you're a murderer,
then don't be yourself.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
That's hilarious and catchy. It should be one.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
If it's not, you're making fun of me.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
I am absolutely.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Good. Good? That was That was a lot.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Do you do we have do we have to talk
about this tour? We are now basically like the Eagles,
where we're on tour every weekend. We had a meeting
where we found out how many more tour dates are
coming if you live in some part of the United
States where we have we are not like on record
as to be visiting yet that you.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
Can sid tweeting at us. Yeah, to South Carolina.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
We'll probably don't be mad at us just because we're
in this part of We're not. It's not about Texas
and the wire you Yeah, Texas, we hear you.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
This isn't the one. This isn't the only one. Yeah,
hopefully fingers crossed.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
There seems to be so much more that I As
we were having that meeting and we're making these plants.
I was like, I have to get like my teeth fixed.
I had to get my teeth fixed so that I
am not on a plane and somehow like some too,
like I feel like I have that. That's my anxiety
of like we're gonna be traveling and I'm gonna be
in some weird place and then all of a sudden,

(10:28):
it's like.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Nine, is that I'm gonna die and not like in
a weird place.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
Just like oh suddenly you're just dead.

Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, that I'm going to die, or that Vince is
gonna die, and we're like the thought is someone dying
when you're not close to them, or you dying and
you're far away, Like is so much worse to me
than like than dying in the same city somewhere.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
That's worse than someone dying directly next to you with
their eyes open staring at.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, Like at least I can be next to you
the whole time instead of like how did I go
through the airports here? Oh?

Speaker 2 (11:01):
And I can't do anything to hell been like, uh,
I mean there's no yeah, there's nothing good about it.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Traveling is going to be fun with me, Karen.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
I mean I feel like we should start stockpiling pills now, Yeah,
just like whatever pills we can get our hands.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, don't send us your fucking Etsy March. We want
pills unless you're adding is this seligal.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
We're sending it yes or or or or.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Because we have these feelings, ye and we know about them,
they're going to have like very peak experiences because it's
like whoa, we lived and that was fun and we
and we saw that one river and everything was fine,
and everything was fine, and then we got back home. Yeah,
that's my like, I mean I work on this a
lot therapy where it's like what, like what if you
get home and everything was fine? Are you going to

(11:49):
be bummed that you were worrying the whole time?

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Like? What a waste of this fucking incredible experience? Right.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
Also, I'm going to leave a note in every hotel Bible.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
I don't know, why, what do you?

Speaker 2 (12:01):
What's it going to say?

Speaker 1 (12:02):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
I just like that's my plan to get excited about something.
I'm going to leave a note in every hotel Bible,
hotel room that I stay in, in their Bible.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Can I make a suggestion? Yes, what if you just
draw a middle finger, like just a drawing of just
a hand flipping off.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
You're a middle finger, my correct middle finger. Wait, remember
we got Oh that's a huge fight. Yeah, that's right,
one of our big fights.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
I mean, I'm not I wont never. I'm not going
to draw in a Bible. I'm gonna put a post
it note and post.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
A note of a middle finger. I don't know why
that's the first thing it popped in my head. I
went to Catholic school, so maybe it was just like
worst case scenario.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Or a big Jewish star we had. We got it first,
make it.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Put a Jewish star right where the New Testament starts,
as if.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
To say it just doesn't exist.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
It's like a stop sign.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
But it's a Jewish store.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
If in the in the beginning where it says the
you know, do they have an opening like the Bible
written by yeh, I'll just put a I'll just change
it to the Torah.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
People were like, what the hail?

Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, the tora? Actually all right? That it actually sorry,
sorry sorry.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
There's a couple of people that have tweeted us and
they figured out how to write I'm sorry, and the
I'm is tiny. I don't know how they did that?
Do you how the like the text of i'm is
really small.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
Like legit, I'm sorry. No, I don't know how they
did that.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
I know it was pretty cool. Someone actually tweeted us
and it said I'm sure someone's already done this, but
look and then it said sorry.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
I bet it says fucking young, creepy pasta, fucking slender
My kids who know how to work the internet, like
we don't.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
It's some fourteen year old boy who we had been
shitting on, who was like, but I made the I'm
sorry text.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
Who stopped listening five minutes was it five minutes ago?

Speaker 1 (13:48):
But he was like, oh, I'm not wanted here.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
One hot tear burning down his cheek.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Tinny come back and.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Underneath his his his transition lenses.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Listen. We're are your mothers. We're trying to make you
get out and fucking play in the street.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
Please play in the streets. Go talk to strangers, like
get to get to know people, like don't sit in
home and like write Slenderman, fucking cosplay.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
They're like, but this whole time, you've been telling me
to stay at home and not talk to strangers, not.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Cause plays anybody.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
What's the one where they were like Kermit and like
Gonzo bone each other?

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Oh, like erotic fan fiction? Yes?

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yeah, yeah, my god, I'm aging myself so much.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Dude, we might die before this tour even starts. Let's
get honest. Okay, all right, should we start this thing?
All right, we're back.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
We're back. We're in the podloft now, permanently.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
Your podloft dream has come true. You're in there. You
put all that stuff up on the wall.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
I've got the cats, which just that's the thing that
makes it home, right, Like that moment when you're moving
and you bring your pets over, yeah, and you're like,
this is where you live now, and you watch some
smell stuff and that's how you know.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Oh did you ever watch the slender Man documentary?

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Me? No, yeah, you know, I mean, I know we
talked about it, But like that story and those girls
that going that far because they're in this exactly that
age where you're so weird and you get the craziest
ideas and you are trying to find who you are
and it's just like and no one stepped in to
go enough of this already.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
And you're so susceptible to suggestion, right, yes, Like you're
like prime to be in a cult.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
Crime to be like there's a sixteen foot very thin
man always behind the slide on the playground, Like, no,
there isn't.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
And you just figured out Santa doesn't exist. Of course you're.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Believe dealing with that psychological right fucking shit? Yeah no,
I never I never watched it. You watched it.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Though, Yeah, well I can give you an update on
that case. It took place in twenty fourteen, and a
Nissa Wire was released from a state psychiatric facility in
twenty twenty one at age nineteen. She's the one who
committed the crime. She's living under strict supervision with GPS
monitoring and no Internet access, and she's required to continue
psychiatric treatment. And then Morgan Geyser, who actually carried out

(16:16):
the stabbing, is still in a state hospital. In January
twenty twenty five, a Wisconsin judge granted her conditional release
from the Winnebago Mental Health Institute, saying she no longer
posed a danger, but her actual move has been delayed
several times in twenty twenty five. In April, her planned
group homeplacement was halted after was revealed to be just eight.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Miles from her victim's home.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Horrible.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah, And the judge instructed the Department of Health Services
to create a new placement plan and Geyser was returned
to the mental hospital while they complete that plan. So
that's the update as of now.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
And also that is just kind of like this sad,
true underbelly of this case, which is it's a mental
illness gone unchecked reshoe in children, yes together, yeah, I mean,
just horrible folly I do.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
Speaking of, let's get into karen story about Christine and
Leah papin.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
Who's first this week?

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Karen k Stephen Stephen?

Speaker 1 (17:23):
Thank god?

Speaker 2 (17:25):
Okay this now, now that I don't have a job,
it was super fun to sit down in front of
my computer and have nothing else fucking standing over me.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Isn't that fun?

Speaker 2 (17:39):
And get into something? Yeah, And here's how I found this,
this murders specifically, the I had one packet left of
the murder cards that those those serial killer or murderer.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Call like true crime playing cards or something.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Not the cold case playing card. But they were just
the bait like baseball cards. Remember that we got Steven,
did you get us those for Christmas.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yes, yeah, motherfuckers, Yes, yes I did.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
So. I had one pack left. I looked over. I
was sitting and I was like, krickkrick, ready to find
some story. And then I looked like her.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
She just cracked her finger.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Oh yeah, that's me cracking my knuckles. And I looked
over and I had one packet unopened and have those cards.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
It's a sign I open it up.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
There's of course three mafia guys where it's like NAF
already with you people. Eileen Warnos is in there. Hi,
how are you exciting? But you know, well tried territory.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
Then I come upon this.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Oh, and this is the best thing to get to
get murders, because I'm like, what am I going to
fucking do?

Speaker 1 (18:46):
I should just shuffle a deck and pick one that's
not mob.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Because there's tons of good ones. Uh, and they start
you off like you know every detail, and then you
can be like, oh, yeah, there is enough there. This
is the kind I want to talk about.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
I'm sorry, do that again with your paper because I
was and.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
So oh also I just really enjoyed, like I was typing,
it was all for myself. I didn't have to turn
it in nobody was waiting for me to turn it in.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, girl, honey, I like it.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Okay, come with me back to France.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Ooh.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
February second, nineteen thirty three. Ooh, that's right. So a
man named Monsieur lance Alan is supposed to have dinner
with his wife and daughter at their friend's house. He
gets there first. They're supposed to meet him there at
six point thirty. They don't show up, so he goes

(19:38):
home to see what's taking them so long. He arrives
to find the front door. The front door is bolted
from the inside, and the only light on in the
entire house is the glow of a single candle, so
he knows that something is terribly wrong, so he goes
to the police station because he thinks a prowler has
broken in. He brings the police back to the house

(19:59):
and two officers climb the back wall and break in
the back door. Inside, all the lights in the house
are out and it's totally silent. They look around the
ground floor with their flashlights. They're quietly looking around because
they're all thinking there's a prowler inside the house, and
they start to climb the backstairs quietly, and when they're

(20:24):
almost to the first floor landing, so basically the ground floor.
They're calling the first floor the ground floor and the
second floor the first floor. In this story, I don't
know if it's a French thing. I found it very confusing,
but it's basically ground floor, first foor, second floor.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
Right.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
I did that with my hands visually only for Georgia.
Sorry everybody at home. Okay, So, as they're almost to
the first floor it's really the second floor landing, the
first officer on the stairs sees a white marble on
the stair in front of him, so he leans down
to pick it up. It's an eyeball. Yes, yes, yes, yes,

(21:05):
we're off to the races. No eww, it's a human
eyeball and looking up at him. So they climb the
last few steps to the first floor, which is actually
the second floor, and they find the bodies of missus
laws law and her daughter, her adult daughter, brutally murdered
their faces quote reduced to a.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Poll Oh my the that Oh I've read a couple
of those, and that blows my mind.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
Okay, I was super bummed because after I read this card,
read the Wikipedia page. Then I found on YouTube which
I highly recommend a British crime series. And now there's
all these ones I want to watch. I of course
forgot to write down what the name of it is.
But this one was about them, and they had all
these French experts and all these people whatever, and the

(21:53):
British narrator also spoke French, so he pronounced all these
names really well. But there is a good for him.
Good for him, you know what. That's how it is
over there in Europe.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Great, We're happy for him.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
There is a picture of this crime scene that I
accidentally saw I Do thirty three from nineteen thirty three,
and it is so fucking awful. I want to say that,
Zach Ross Uh No, I mean, it's that's what some
people are all about. I'm not normally about it because
it sticks my brain takes a picture of it, and

(22:31):
I can look back at it any time I want to,
which then I'll do that all the time, so I
normally don't. But there was a part where they talk
about how the adult daughter Jelviev that her calves and
but were stabbed and slashed, and as they're explaining that part,
the picture just pans across. Oh they didn't tell you yeah,

(22:54):
they don't. They didn't prep you in any way. And
it was really horrifying, Like it was really really gruesome
and and like and not just like thin knife knife.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
Marks, like these big ash.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Open gashes and like as many as you could fit
on the back of both legs.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Are you serious?

Speaker 2 (23:14):
It was horrible. Then it pans out and shows both
and these women you you can't see their faces. They're
so it's such a gruesome attack.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
Yeah, bashing the head to Paul. I saw like a
crime scene photo once on like Cold Case files where
you couldn't see the guy's head because there was like
he had a hoodie on and there was just nothing there. Yes,
and I did not want to see that.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
That's how this is. It's really upsetting because it's like
the front of them looks they look like old fashioned
thirties women. Yeah, and then yeah, horrifying, So dude, so
it really is that. Okay, So the officers there, so
they come upon the scene, they said, there's teeth and
bone on the floor. It's like it's just it's brutal carnage.

(24:04):
So they're thinking, Okay, this murderer is still in the
house because it's the front doors bolted from the inside.
So they go up to the second story, third story, third,
third for us, second for France, and they're checking everything
they come. They check every single room, and they check
the laundry room and they see that there is an

(24:27):
iron sitting there with a wrinkled shirt on the ironing board,
and they realize that the maids in the house were
surprised while they were working and interrupted during their work,
and so they're like, okay, so there's two maids that
are probably also the victims of this guy in this house.
So they're like, holy shit wherever, so room by room

(24:49):
they're they're looking for this guy, you know, the intruder
and these bodies.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
How scary you like, with a fucking flashlight doing.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
That horrifying right, Once they see that, once they see
them actual first murder scene, and then they find in
the laundry, the laundry room, that the maids were there
and that their work was interrupted. They go back downstairs.
They let the sergeant into the house, and then the
other policemen send for the superintendent, the examining magistrate, and

(25:16):
the corner and then the police go back up and
continue to search the rest of the house, and uh,
it finally ends at the maid's chambers. They find that
that room is bolted from the inside, so they're like, Okay,
this guy's in this room. They worry that the dead

(25:37):
bodies of the maids are in there with him, so
they call a locksmith, and so then the lock They
wait around for the locksmith to come, and they're listening
at the door while they wait for the locksmith.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
And it's dead, silent locksmith stage.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
I know, right in like a little French village. So
I said, this is back when doors were actually made
of something. You couldn't just break it down by like
throwing your shoulder into it twice like every cop show.
Which it then made me think of the time that
my sister I really wanted to borrow this pink and
black pinstripe jumpsuit of my sisters in high school.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Horrible.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
It's so eighties. It looked like it was like black
and pink pin stripe, black and pinstripes jumpsuit. So it
was like black lapel, black buttons, a black patent leather belt.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yes, it sounds you know what it sounds snazzy.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's snazzy jazz hands jumpsuit. What's your name Snazzy Snazzy
jazz hands. My sister, who was a lot thinner than
the main high school, was like, no, you can't borrow
it'll look bad on you, which it did, but she
was like, had no problem.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
You wanted to show her, don't do it.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
So then I made my mom make her lend it
to me, and she's like fine and gave it to me,
but she didn't give me the belt, so the middle
part was just elastic without the belt, with two loops
that the belt was supposed to go through, and it
made me so angry that I kicked a hole in
the bottom of my her bedroom door, holy shit, because
we were home alone. So my sister's like, fine, you

(27:05):
can borrow it, and threw it at me. But then
there's no belt, so it was like the whole thing
fell apart, so I got it. Was just like the
culmination of everything. Kicked a hole in the bottom of
her door. She opened the door like holy shit, and
then we were both like, oh no, like now we're.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Dead because it was both it doesn't matter that you
did it. Now you did it because she was pissing
you off. We're both in trouble. You're both in fucking trouble.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
And big trouble because my dad did not play with
stuff like that, Like, yeah he was. He would get
really mad. So we took one of those remember those
really big Missus Grossman's stickers. There was like really big hearts,
really kind of basic Teddy Bears. It was like the
first sticker wave of the early eighties. So I had
a really huge Missus Grossmiths sticker and we just stuck

(27:46):
it at the bottom of.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
Them my sister's door. I think it's sweet that she
like helped you.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, she had well she had to, I know, like sweet, Yeah,
she knew she was being an asshole.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
Then my mom came on from work because like, you
think I'm stuck. Yeah, like I know, you didn't put
a sticker at the bottom of Lore's door for no reason.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
And it's like concave, yes exactly, And we were super scared.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
And then my mom goes, no, you do realize that
your dad. Because my dad had eight brothers and sisters.
When they would fight, they fought one time so bad
that they were chasing one brother that one brother locked
himself in the room and the other brothers took the
door off. The hinges to get to a lee shit,
and she's like, no, he has he'll have nothing to
say about this.

Speaker 3 (28:28):
Don't worry about it. It's not annoying about parents. It's
like you never know it's going to fucking piss them off.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
That's exactly right. Like if you act scared, then they'll
be on your side. Yeah, and if you're like, yeah,
fuck it, I kicked a thing, and then you're like,
you're grounded for eight days. Anyhow. Listen, it's like the
locksmith shows up because they had to literally break in
that way. Okay, I forgot, I know. Now we're back
in France in a horrible, horrible.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
Pera hot from Sacramento Pedaluaeda.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
They push, he pushes a thing, he makes the key
fall out of the other side. They open the door
and the two maids are in.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
Bed, sleeping now with puppies.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Just with each other. Sisters get just in their robes
and one of the maids says, we were expecting you wait,
they're not dead. No. Next to the bed, there's a
candle on a stool, and next to the candle there's
a hammer covered in blood.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
That's all right, girl, Oh my god, I was not
I thought it was the dad.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Oh my god, I was not expecting that.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
I really made it, so I twisted and turned you
on this one.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
You're a good storyteller, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
It's it's because I hated my sister so much.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Thanks Laura, thanks a lot.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
It's all to her doing. So the police ask them,
what did you do to your masters, and the older
maid replies, they wanted to hit me. I would rather
do my master's in than let them do us in.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
But like with a thousand blows, yeah, so holy shit.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
The police asks their names, and the maid tells them
that she is Christine Papin and the other maid is
her younger sister, Leah or Leah I'm sure. When the
police sergeant accuses them of murdering the mother and the daughter,
Leah cries out they shouldn't have threatened us, and the
police start to focus their questioning on Leah because she
seems to me the more fragile of the two, But

(30:33):
then with just one look from her sister, she falls silent,
and Christine tells the police that Leah's deaf and dumb,
and then Leah doesn't say another word and they the
police take them away. Uh okay, So the mother and
daughter have mortal stab wounds to the head and face.

(30:54):
As I already said, the daughter has stab wounds to
the butt and calves. The slashed the women's faces open
and then smashed their heads with a heavy pewter pot. Uh.
There was blood going up all the walls and both
women had their eyes pulled out.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
What have we said? Leave the eyes alone?

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Leave them alone? But not these two their dresses.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Were they alive when their eyes got yes? Do you
think they were alive on their eyes got they were plucked?

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, we'll hear about that later.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Oh no, I don't want detail.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
You're gonna get them off.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Shit.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
The dresses were they're both of their dresses were pulled
up and their underwear were pulled down. That's where they
were exposed. But the experts in this documentary UH talk
about how this was like one of those crime scenes
that was from the beginning was compromised because the cops
were walking through it. They didn't know even though they
were walking through it. The locksmith walked through it, the

(31:58):
crime scene photographer walked through it. And because of the
time they pulled up the dresses, they pulled up the
underwear and pulled down the dresses so that they could
take the crime scene photo. They didn't leave it as
it was, Yes, exactly. So Christine, the older sister, the
older maid, was questioned and she said that the iron

(32:20):
had broken the day before they had to have it fixed,
so the iron broke again that day and they knew
their mistress would be angry.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
I'm sorry, iron's fucking break, dude.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Well, what's interesting? And I wish there was more to
be found out about what this family was actually like,
because it's one of those things where now they're dead
and you can't know. It was this really intense, like
hideous job anyway.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
I mean, if you get mad at someone for something
that they have absolutely no control over, like, what.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Else do you get pissed about? Right?

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Are you some kind of crazed monster like Mommy Dearest
type boss?

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (33:04):
So? Uh So. Christine says that when missus laws law,
when she told missus lawnslow the iron was broken again,
that that her mistress set upon her. So as she
saw her coming at her, Christine decided to leap at
her face and tear her eyes out with her fingers. Yeah,

(33:27):
and then the daughter came in because she heard that
going on and as she heard that, Christine yelled to
Leah tear her eyes out, and then that so Leah
does it to the daughter.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
No.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yes, Then the both women are on their knees like
holding their eye, holding their face in that dude. And
that's when they started. That's when they pick up the They
they started hitting in the head with this pewter pot
that was nearby, and then one of them went downstairs

(34:01):
and got the other instruments. So they went to the
kitchen and got a knife and a hammer and brought
it back upstairs.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
Like the moment your eyes have been plucked out, you know,
you have no hope, Like there's no no, it's getting
at it, there's no like they're not gonna like it's
not gonna be a fight.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
And then they're gonna walk away.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah no, no, I mean then then they're helpless. Also,
it's just so goddamn horrifying.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
You're starting, you're starting with the fucking the death blow.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well, also, who can do that? Oh my god, who
can do that?

Speaker 1 (34:34):
I can't imagine.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
It's easy, Like it's an easy thing to do, like
not even not even just the I don't mean either,
I don't even like pulling someone's like the actual strength
and like exactly what's it called agility?

Speaker 1 (34:50):
No, fortitude? Fortitude and with your hand.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yes, agility. I think you're like I could be able
to know how to do it. Yeah, no, it's and
it's just the gross like yeah, like a haunted house
where like it's like, oh, cal eyeballs in a bowl
or whatever, and like you don't even want to put
your hand in what are basically grapes covered in you
know whatever, Like they do stuff like that where it's
just like loos even just the feeling of it much

(35:15):
less yanking them out.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
And the fact that they could both do it, like
the sisters like you do that too, And she wasn't
like no.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, she was gonna hit her.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
I'm on this okay.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
At the end of her testimony, Christine said, I have
no regrets.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
You don't have one or two.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
I mean it's okay, Well you can think about it
for a little while, what you know in the eyes no, no, no,
feel good about all of it. Uh. And the thing
that freaked the cops out where Lee's answers were exactly
the same as Christine's, so they knew they weren't getting
the full story because it was such a rehearsed story.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
So, however, okay, go ahead, what nothing.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
I mean, the fact that they're admitting to such horrifying thing,
It was like, well, what else is there that they're
keeping from me?

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, this isn't like the worst thing they could ever say.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
Now, And it wasn't like they're trying to blame them.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Right, They're they're blaming them for being a bit about
the eye. Yeah, that's as bad as it got. Yeah,
they weren't saying, well they beat us every single day
or anything.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
We just snapped because they were so awful to it.
You know. It's like, oh, we fucking went after the
balls are their eyes?

Speaker 2 (36:26):
We went for it?

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
So they find out that the upbringing is basically they
had an unhappy parents who were unhappily married. The mother
was thought to be very disturbed. They had an older
sister who was sent to live at a Catholic orphanage,
who eventually became a nun and like moved away. Christine

(36:51):
was sent to live with her aunt for the first
seven years of her life and was supposed supposed to
be happy. Then Leah was born and both girls were
sent to a ca orphanage by this mother, so the
mother was just like not handling anything. When she's fifteen, though,
the mother takes Christine out of the orphanage and places
her to work as a maid, So that's when she start.

(37:13):
She started working as a maid when she was fifteen
years old, and in nineteen twenty six, in April of
nineteen twenty six, Christine starts working at the Lacelon's house
and then when Lee is old enough, she comes and
joins her sister. You know, so basically missus Lawnslow is
said to be a demanding mistress. She liked her house
very clean. The girls were up at seven o'clock every morning, cooking, cleaning,

(37:35):
going to the market. They worked fourteen hour days. They
had like an hour off here and there. They were
free to leave the house or just go up to
their room. But a lot of uh, there's a lot
of theories that this was basically that at this period
of time, these were like it was the bourgeoisie who
were exploiting the working class. So it was like i'll

(37:58):
pay you a pittance, you're gonna come and you're just
basically gonna work for as long as I want you.

Speaker 3 (38:02):
To you're available twenty four hours a day. Yeah, I
mean yeah, it wasn't like there were workers rights back then.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
Exactly. It's kind of like how we are with Stephen.
Do our bidding, Maybe I'll buy you a del taka.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Oh yeah, Stephen, you have heard two bucks for them.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
For the number four combo. Okay, So both of those,
both of the past sisters are found to be sane,
and they say their relationship was not found to be suspect,
but they were found in bed together kind of nude

(38:44):
in a way, and they said eventually it comes out
that they were very close quote unquote huh. One of
the theories of why they pulled the women's eyes out
was because missus laws alone caught the sister's having sex.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Oh shit, and speculation officer.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Speculation officer, for sure. But they were saying, because of
how homosexuality was viewed at the time, that it would
be such, it would it in of its in and
of itself would be taboo, and then it's incestual.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
Maybe it wasn't hers, Maybe it wasn't her sister.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
You have to see these pictures their sisters. They look
almost exactly alike. They have the same awesome French eyebrows.
But they look they're so frightening. They look like a
picture out of They look like the thing of like, uh,
you know, no one's lived in this house for fifty years,
picture stress of the house. Yeah, and then it's like
she used to live here. And then you're like, oh,

(39:44):
that's the woman who shows up at night in the hallway.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Oh my god, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
I yeah, okay, so so so Christine finally admits. After
being held in prison for five months, Christine finally admits
it was her idea to murder the women. Leah was
just doing her bidding. So the trial was held in
September of nineteen thirty three. Huge. This was like the
trial of the century. This is in Lamal, which is

(40:10):
a small village. I don't know how to pronounce what
it's pronounced, Olsta, but like all the biggest newspapers in
France go to it. It's packed, it's crazy. The sisters
come in. Both they both look very sheepish and they whisper.

(40:32):
You can barely hear them talking the whole time, and
Christine admits to everything. There's no they don't put up
any kind of argument. The prosecution psychologist attests there's nothing
wrong with the sisters. There's nothing in their background to
suggest there's anything abnormal about them psychologically and Chine. They
say Christine is of average intelligence and Leah is of
low intelligence. But the defense psychologist has a different opinion.

(40:57):
He brings up that there is almost no motive at
the brutality is beyond extreme, and he suggests there's a
third person present at the murders. The combination of the
personalities between Christine and Leah that they had because they
were so close and they were the only person the
other person had, they had this kind of weird connection.

(41:20):
They call it a folly adieu, which is when you
hear about you know that story of those other two
weird twins that ran into the freeway. Yeah, and then
there's there's those ones, and then there's another set of twins.
They're black sisters who also had a similar.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Who went to a mental institution and was like, whoever
dies first has to live a normal the other has
to live a normal life exactly.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
So they call that a folly adu, which means that
you're both you're having a shared hallucination. And they also
associate that with couple killers that basically, you're living in
this weird fantasy together outside of the realm of normal thinking.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Wow, oh that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
So they believe they also one of the That's defense
psychologists suggests that they were going through something called hystero epilepsy,
which I didn't look up and it could directly impact
my life. But it's basically like they were in a state,
that Christine was in a state, and that Leah was

(42:27):
just so under her sway that she had no choice.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
How do you have, like, is sustained epilepsy a thing?

Speaker 2 (42:35):
No, No, hystero epilepsy. Okay, so that's just like they
went hysterical that their brain like went great. I'm not
sure I should have looked it up to find out
exactly what he meant.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
I want to guess.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
I mean, that's all we do. Yeah, but it's basically
like they're in they're in some kind of a hysterical states.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
Okay, I did it.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
I mean, but the weird thing is, it's like, clearly
something special is happening in this situation, because it's not
like they didn't jump at the women, beat him up,
beat him up, hit him in the head once. Yeah,
it wasn't like that this is sustained extreme insane violence.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, this is like, yeah, dude crazy.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
So basically the jury, the judge and jury find them
both guilty. Christina sentenced to death because she basically comes
forward and says it was my idea. She's ordered to
be beheaded in the town square, really in the city
of Lamont. Leah is sentenced to twenty years hard labor
and ten years exile, which is kind of old fashioned fun.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
She's like, I don't want to be wrong your fuckers anyways.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Well, fine, then go live on an island, which sounds great.
Christine's sentences changed to a life sentence of hard labor.
At some point, someone comes in and says there was
something else going on here and that the you know,
these psychologists didn't they basically oversimplified the situation. Obviously something

(44:06):
else was happening, and can we at least get her
her sentence commuted to a life of hard labor or whatever,
twenty years of hard labor, so they do. They go
find Christine. At this point, Christine has been brought to
a mental institution. She's not talking, she's not eating, and
she says that she deserves to die. The way the

(44:26):
jury found her to be guilty of that. She deserves
the charge. So she just stopped eating and she's basically
wasting away. When they give her the paperwork to sign
to say that instead of being sent to death and
she gets twenty years hard labor or whatever, she won't
sign it. Wow, and she just basically sits in silence,

(44:48):
staring into space. They bring her sister to her, she
doesn't acknowledge her even act like she knows who she is.
And she eventually dies. Sorry said that, like Lizzie Cooperman.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Dies.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Uh, But her sister Leah adapts well to prison life
and is released when she's thirty one, thirty one, So
she was she's an old maid that basically, and she
died July twenty fourth, two thousand and one. No, yeah,
she just lived. She went back to wherever the mother

(45:25):
lived and like started her life over and then just
kind of like lived. There was a documentary I don't
I don't have the name of it, but if you
find if you look up, all this stuff obviously is
just a click away. If I can find it, you
can find it. But there was a documentary someone went
and was like there is a papa, sister left and

(45:45):
they're like, we're going to go find her, and they
find her in like an old folks home right before
she died in her nineties.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
How was her life, Yeah, in herbies in her nineties, So.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
It's kind of a And also there's a movie called Sister.
My Sister is one movie, and there's also a bunch
of plays. Jean Paul Sarte and Jean Janet and all
these writers of the time wrote a ton about it
because it became this thing about like the working class
and the exploitation of the workers and how unfair you know,

(46:21):
people with money were to the working class, and that
it was kind of a natural reaction.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, they said, like dude, like this is what's going
to happen if we keep fucking treating him like this. Yeah,
that is crazy and so violent and gruesome.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
It's so violent and also so like they wanted to
They smashed their faces and they left their bodies like exposed,
like it was so.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
Beyond and they didn't try to hide it.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
It's like that to me is like, you know, you know,
when like someone tries to to argue mental and mental
that they were mentally ill, but they like tried to
hide the murder yeah, it's like, no, you weren't because you.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Knew it was wrong and so you hit it.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
And like they didn't do that, which says to me
something about them not being mentally competent.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
They hid like children.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, like they waited though.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah, they didn't run out of the house, which is
just they were on the stairs, like they were right there.
They should have and could have run out, Yeah, but
instead they went to their room and locked the door
and just like hung out.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
Man, what happened to them in the orphanage exactly? Something
fucked Well, fuck dude, what are their names.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Again, Christine and Leah Papin.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Fuck dude, thank you, no, thank you, thank us.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
All Okay, we're back, Karen. Any updates.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
There are no updates on this case. I was actually
just looking it up because we were talking about how
disturbing this case is, how bizarre and the little details
in it, and Alison was like, this actually would make
an amazing horror movie, like a a twenty four horror
movie for today, where it's like it absolutely would. I
know they've done the more like a sociological kind of study,

(48:12):
you know, filmic version, but it's like this should be
a straight up horror movie.

Speaker 4 (48:16):
You want, like supernatural, Well, because they say that when
it is a Folia, Dude, there's like a third personality
that is between the two that's there, which just I
think you could take that theme and really run with
it with those two sisters.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
Yeah, you know what I mean, getting abused by these
You know, you could make it seem like insanely monstrous,
much worse than average, you know what I mean, like
really set it up.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Yeah, And then there's a question to ask of like
is mental illness like almost a different person inside of
you or a different part of you, you know, if
you're into parts therapy.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
I mean, well, if you are your brain and your
brain is doing something different right in one area, right,
I mean, I know the logical part of.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
You wouldn't want to do then.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
But also it's a thing of like so many parts
of this story because it's like it isn't just revenge.
They mutilated those people, so there's more and we just
will we ever know? I wish there was an update
to this case because would we ever know the real
reason or the I would just love to be able
to like track it in a real way totally.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Well, you should write it.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
I will I will make up the truth.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
If I can't have, I wish you would. A comedy
horror movie? Is that a thing that shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Be I don't think this one. I think this one
has to be real serious to that moment where they're
like we were expecting it and the cop opens.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
All right, well, let's that's your new genre.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
So scary poor Man's copyright. You cannot make this movie.
People are like, eighteen people have made it. All right, Okay,
now we're going to get into Georgia's story. This one
she covers the case of Sam Shepherd.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
All Right, mine's fucked up, but you probably have heard
of it. But it's a good one and I really
wanted to do it. So Karen Yes. On the night
of July third, nineteen fifty four, doctor Sam Shepherd, oh girl, hey, yes,

(50:22):
un neurosurgeon and his wife Marilyn, who was four months
pregnant with their second kid. They lived on a lakefront
home in Bay Village, Ohio, which is the suburb of Cleveland.
Have you been to Cleveland. I've never been to Cleveland.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
I don't think I have.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
I should do a show there.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
So they're watching a movie together, Sam Shepherd falls asleep
on the day bed in the living room, and Marilyn
tucks their seven year old son into bed, and then
she goes to sleep in their bedroom, and reportedly in
the early morning hours, Sam says he woke up on
the day bed to the cries of his wife screaming.

(51:04):
He runs upstairs and he sees an intruder in the
bedroom and he gets knocked unconscious, unconscious. Then he wakes up.
He takes his wife's pulse, and then he sees the
intruder downstairs and chases him out, and they they head
down to the beach and there's a tussle and Sam

(51:25):
Shepherd's knocked unconscious, unconscious again, she says, And he wakes up.
He's like half in the leg, his shirt's gone, his
watch is gone.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
He freaks out.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
He runs home, finds his wife in their bedroom bludgeoned
to death, and she's on the bed. She'd been hit
thirty five times, twenty seven in her head. She had
a broken nose, a shattered skull. There's gashes on her
forehead and scalp. A fingernail gets torn off.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Which is all. He creeps me out, and it's horrifying.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
Two incisors are broken or ripped out where she'd either
bit her attack her, or was hit so hard that
her teeth came out. There was evidence of a sexual
assault only in that her pajama tap had been top
had been pushed up around her neck, and one of
her pajama legs had been taken off, and she was

(52:16):
posed with her legs spread open, but there was no
sign of sex or rape. And her body was angled
in this crazy way at the end of the bed
where there was basically like a banister where it was
like impossible to have raped her, so she was pulled
down there to make it look like sexual assault, but
it wasn't. And the bedroom's covered in blood and there's

(52:36):
blood throughout the house. So Sam Shepherd, when he gets
back from being unconscious on the beach, he doesn't call
the cops. He tested Marylyn's pulse and then at five
forty am he calls his neighbors, basically saying, I think
they've killed Marilyn. So he calls the neibors. The neighbors
come over. I think one of them was the mayor
of the town and they were over earlier that night

(52:57):
for dinner. They find Sam shirt and his pants were
wet with a bloodstain on the knee, and they and
he leaves them to go find Marylyn's body, and then
they call the cops. M you know what that makes
me think of h John Benny exactly. So he's taken
to the hospital. He's examined by his brother who's also

(53:19):
a doctor.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
And it shouldn't be allowed.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
And then a green duffel bag with some of the
trinkets that are stolen from their house is found close
by the house outside in the woods, and like weird
stuff of you know, it looks like everyone knows what
a stage robbery looks like. It's you know, drawers are
pulled out, but neatly nothing of value is taken, even
though things of value are spread out, that sort of thing.

(53:46):
And so the police find inconsistencies with his story, and
they also think it's outlandish. So he's taken a trial
on October eighteenth, it's my sister's birthday, nineteen fifty four,
and prosecutors find out that Shepherd had a three year
long extramarital affair with a nurse at the hospital where
he worked at it was ongoing, and they argue that

(54:09):
the affair was his motive for killing his wife. So
if she's pregnant, like he doesn't want this life anymore.
That's their argument. And there were a lot of inconsistencies,
one of which was that the family dog, and I
think this is such a normal thing, was never heard
barking and it always barked it intruders. Yeah, I feel
like neighbors say that all the time. Also, their seven

(54:29):
year old son, Sam was asleep in the other room
during the whole thing and never woke up. And I
was like, well, if she's screaming and he can hear
her in the living room, then the kid woke up
unless he doesn't remember it, or unless they were fighting
all the time and so he never got out of
bed for it, I mean.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Or unless he's a heavy sleeper, like I'm a heavy
sleeper and you can scream and I want Yeah, unless
my dog starts barking that's so sharp, Yeah, and create
like jolting or whatever. But I think like as children,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
Yeah, they're hard sleepers. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
Other issues brought up at the trial was the fact
that there was no sand in Sam Shepherd's hair, even
though he claimed to be sprawled out on the beach.
There was no sign on the beach of a life
or death struggle, and where he claimed to tackle Marilyn's killer.
He's missing his t shirts, which the prosecutors speculated would

(55:26):
have had some of his Sam Shepherds should contain some
blood from the alleged attack or struggle with the perpetrator. Also,
the blood evidence was fucked up. So Sam Shepherd had
a watch on and when the intruder first hit him,
he still had the watch on, and he said that

(55:47):
he went and took his wife's pulse, but the watch
was found in the green Duffel bag.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
So after the scuffle at the beach.

Speaker 3 (55:54):
The intruder supposedly took the watch, why did he take
it after the second struggle he had gone through Sam
Shepherd's wallet supposedly, so why didn't he take it after
the first knockout if he's there for you know, valuables. Also,
So he took his wife's pulse and touched her face,
what he said had happened, and he had no blood

(56:19):
on his body at all, and he said he didn't
clean himself, so he should have had a transfer of
blood to his fingers. He picked up the phone after
and there's no blood on the phone, which is weird.
M So, like, why is it so cleaned up?

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Let's see.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
Someone said that they got sick of me saying da
da da da da the other day?

Speaker 2 (56:42):
Was it me? Are you no? So it doesn't matter?

Speaker 1 (56:46):
Oh, good call. Okay. He says he didn't watch her
clean up, but there was no le al.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
So you know what, let's listen to your fucking podcast
and see what you say all the time, and don't
say you'd be amazed at the things that you say
and don't say. Yeah, you talk for an extended period
of time, fair.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Enough, And all I did is lose my fucking place.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
Well, so now I'm yelling at you.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
They're yelling at them, but you're making eye contact with me.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
So I'm really mad at you. Why didn't I turn
it towards Steven?

Speaker 3 (57:13):
You're really mad at I'm triggered?

Speaker 1 (57:19):
Okay, So okay, so fucking.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
So there also should have been sand from the beach
in his wristwatch if they had actually fought at the
beach where he took his fucking watch, and there fucking
wasn't sand in the wristwatch. Yeah, Like if they were
fighting on the beach, He knocks them unconscious and then
steals his watch. There should be traces of sand in
the watch, yes or no?

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Well, here's the thing though, every time I think of this,
it's like, yes, except what is this a proven thing
where it happens every time?

Speaker 3 (57:50):
No, you're right, except when you add all the other
evidence in it just kind of you know, is like
a there that looked filthy.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
I poked, Oh, I thought it was two fingers.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
No, it's just one, so it's not creepy.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
But also, and this is just from I think I
saw like two minutes of this story because I keep
avoiding watching a thing on this story because I want
to I want to watch the whole thing, and I
want to read the Errol Morris book who Errol Morris
is totally on Sam Shepherd's side.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
This is such a crazy and I'm leaving out I'm
leaving out a lot of the evidence that people use
to say he didn't do it, because I don't believe.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
That this is such a Jack the Ripper scenario where
there's so much evidence. Yes, but isn't there a thing
where this was not a sandy beach. This isn't the beach.
This is a small pebble rocky beach because this is Ohio,
so it's like a lake front beach, it's not tiny sand.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
Well, what I love about this case, and what I
love about unsolved crimes is that that's a great argument, and.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Let's talk about that.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
And then I want to be like, okay, but what
about this and like, yeah, there are so many and
it's because it's so old too, there's no way for
us to defend, Like we can't definitively say like this
is wrong, and this is wrong, and this is wrong,
so he must not have done it.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
Or if they saw it once they smelled a rat,
they didn't care what size the sand was because they
were like, here's what adds up, and here's what we
need to add up so we can get this guy.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
Well, that's a lot of people say, is that they
come to the conclusion and they find evidence to support
their conclusion. Yeah, and that's totally there. And there's also
a guy working as like a carpenter on at their house.
I didn't write about him. He was obsessed with Marylyn.
Supposedly he ended up being a murderer and like was
in taking advantage of women and was a rapist, and

(59:40):
like there's all the shit that people are like, well,
it was him, clearly, but I feel like there's so
much evidence that doesn't okay.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
I mean seriously, it's like one thousand paths.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
Also, I never knew he was having an affair with
a nurse.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
I didn't know she was pregnant.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
So the person he was having the affair with was pregnant.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
No, his wife was pro Oh yeah, the wife I
mean knows, But it's just such a like that is
such an obvious motive.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Yes, I never knew there was another woman that's insane.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
That's more of a that makes more sense to me
than a guy who they are familiar with breaking in
when he knows that Sam is home. That doesn't make
any fucking sense. If the person's well, I'm going to
get to that, but the person's motive was robbery or rape,
they wouldn't they would know that Sam was home and
they wouldn't have done it then.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Well, and also if his motive was raped, then wouldn't
he have gotten wouldn't he have gotten away with a rape?
Because if he's going to do all this other stuff and.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
Brutally murder her, Yeah, I think the thing about that
to me, which is sure what my point was there?

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
I get it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
What was most telling to me is that around her
ankles were was blood like drag marks that showed that
the person dragged her to the end of the bed
to spread her legs apart.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
And there was no.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
Way he could have raped her because what's it called
the band the bed frame.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Like bedboard, a foot board, good.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
Board, bar banister was there, like he couldn't have gotten
on top of her, yes, and there were drag marks
showing that he purposely put her in that position, So like,
why would he not have sexually assaulted her? That was
why would he break in to be to rob and
then put her in that position without the intent of
sexually assaulting her?

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Or why because he was a she because it was
the other woman that broke in and went berserker and
went crazy and was like filled with rage, and he
had tried to break up with the other woman. He
was like, my wife is pregnant. I can't do this
with you anymore, even though I promised you the moon
and the stars were not doing this. And she went
home one night and it is just like guess what

(01:01:44):
I'm It's fatal attraction time.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
I would agree with that if the injuries weren't as
brutal as they were, and she who seemed like a badass,
wasn't couldn't fight back enough to have enough like, I
don't the woman who's pregnant, yeah, she she wasn't a Yeah,
the brutality of the murder was overkilled and I don't

(01:02:06):
it didn't seem like something that, you know, someone her
equal would have been able to do, oh like, because
they would have had to really overpower her.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Although overpower now exhibit a the picture of the family.
I was just talking about when the past sisters who
fucking decimated these two women.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
I mean, if we're gonna get sued, let's get fucking sued.
Maybe it was a seven year old son, Like, let's
get sued, my favorite murder, trying to get sued, trying twenty.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
Something, trying to get sued.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Since jump, we're in a new apartment and we're trying
to get sued.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Jesus Christ, it's the seven year old son. He's not
a heavy sleeper. He went down to the beach.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
He's a heavy hitter.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
He s took all the sand out of the sawler's watch.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Oh no, okay, this is the episode. Sorry, well just
hate us.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Sorry, all right, you should be I am genuinely sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
No, you shouldn't be ever, not on this podcast. This
podcast is not a place for sorries.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Except for sorry, except for that that's sorry, which is
not sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
Okay, right by by, Okay, let it been.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
I'm gonna fucking do it constantly now, you motherfucker.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Okay. There's no.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
Cut cut to the tweet, and it's from George's mother.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
I didn't even know you knew how to treat tweet.
You tweet up here?

Speaker 3 (01:03:37):
Did you see a bunch of people looked at my
dad's Twitter because he like tweeted something at me and
I retweeted it. And it's all just the whole. Every
single tweet is a tweet at me, like being like,
oh Georgia, like that sounds fun.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
He does not tweet anything unless it's like supportive at me,
and people lost their minds, which is sweet.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
That's cute.

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
Okay, So he had no blood on him, just about
despite the fact that they supposedly, you know, gott into
altercations twice. There should and there should have been blood
on his hands and fingers if they had actually fought
and wristwatch in the greend bag. No sand blood stains
should have Okay, so there were blood spatters on the watch,

(01:04:19):
but not stains.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
Oh yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
So there's this article on crime Lab Crime Library by
Greg McCrary, who was a former FBI profile who's like
the dude who like knows some shit, who like didn't
come to a conclusion until he read everything. He wasn't biased,
so he says it also important importance in analyzing this
crime and crime scene is to consider the amount of

(01:04:46):
time it took for the offender to stage the scene.
And I think this stuff is really interesting in like
a matter of reading any crime in general, like any
kind of these crimes. He says, crime scenes are high
risk environments, and none more so than a homicide scene.
Offenders typically spend no more time than necessary at a
crime scene for fear of being interrupted or caught. Consequently,

(01:05:07):
there's a high degree of correlation between the amount of
time an offender spends at a crime scene and the
offender's familiarity and comfortability with that scene. The more time
an offender spends at a crime scene, the higher the
probability that the offender is comfortable and familiar with that scene.
Offenders who spent a great deal of time at the
crime scene often have a legitimate reason for being at

(01:05:28):
the scene and therefore not worried about being interrupted or
found at the scene.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
Your face, your face is pissed.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
No, no, no, I just now I'm back to that
the handyman.

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
Oh but he looks through a basic window and sees
Sam Shepard sleeping on a couch in the house.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
Why risk that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
Well, because then it's even more of a victory. It
makes me think of like the East Area rapist or whatever,
where it's like part of his attack was knowing that
the husband was going to be humiliated and in total
psychic emotional pain over what was going on. And maybe
that was part of the risk and part of the
high for him, Okay, especially because he was had already

(01:06:11):
been a rapist, which is fucking crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
I don't know if he already was yet, because I
didn't look it up.

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):
Okay, because I am sold on this guy, on Sam
Shepherd being the murderer, But I a lot of people
are and be unsold very quickly. Okay, he says. The
offender will often manipulate the victims discuss. Oh here's another Okay,
this is the John Beney thing. The offender will often

(01:06:36):
manipulate the victim's discovery by a neighbor or family member.
So yeah, Jean Benet calling the ramsays calling their friend
to come over and find the body, as they did
with their friend.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
What was the name Scout the next reor neighbor. Yeah, yeah,
before the police.

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
Right, yeah, So so finding letting someone else find the
body to like almost be a witness as well, is
a fucking thing that they do.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:07:06):
So, after deliberating for four days, the jury find Shepherd
guilty of second degree murder.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
He sentenced to life in prison.

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
Then on July thirtieth and nineteen sixty one.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
Good old Flee Bailey.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
Oh yeah that guy who was he played by in
oj then the Simpsons Nathan Lane?

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
Yes, yeah, so good amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
So he takes over, which is like, oh, everyone's fucked.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
He's chief counsel.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
So Bailey petitions for a writ of habeas corpus something
and I wrote something we should ask Guy Branham about.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Isn't that produced the body?

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
No? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
I was wrong recently, so I'm not gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
It is habeas corpus. I don't know, Stephen, Stephen it is.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
That's what we talked about it when on that episode
good Produce the body.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Okay by the United States disrecorded.

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
We'll see I could there. It could be a version
of that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
I'm wrong, but you're probably right.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Uh who called the trial a mockery of justice and
that Shepherd's it shredded the fourteenth Amendments of right to
do process, which is that kind of fair? The fucking
media was like all over the place. It was a
carnival atmosphere. The judge refused, fucking Stevens, pointing at Karen
and shaking his head, correct me, the old winki wing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
Winky wonk and then yep, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
The old two fingers underneath.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
The old Uh So, doctor Shocker said that the carnival atmosphere. No, no,
don't look that out. He didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
He refused to sequester the jury and told and did
not order them to ignore and disregard media reports of
the case. And this was fucking next like this is
this is basically the Simpsons of the sixties and hifties,
Like this was a huge trial because it's like upstanding
doctor in this nice fucking area whose parents were also
like well to do and well known.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
Yep, and his wife gets brutally murdered.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Sorry did you say this was sixty eight.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
And sixty one is when Flee Bailey took over the case.
Oh so this is late fifties, early sixties. Fifty four
is when the crime happened.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
Holy shit, I thought it was for some reason, I
thought it was like I thought it was Mansen.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Yeah, yeah, it somehow seems that way. Yeah, it does.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
But I think it's when they were it was still
the like post war, like, g golly, we're gonna fucking
have a normal family and something. As you know, in
the seventies, you kind of this happened a lot, but
not here.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):
So he uh, okay. So Shepherd served a ten years
of a sentence and he gets released because Flee Bailey
gets him out. And when he gets released, he Mary
is a woman named Adriannevin Tevin Jonas. She's a German woman.

(01:10:06):
They had been corresponding during his imprisonment. You know, she
was like, I saw this guy in the newspaper and
he's hot. This is just like out of nowhere. It
doesn't matter but I thought it was so interesting. So, uh,
her half sister is the wife of Joseph Goebbels, the
Nazi prom No, Yep, her half sister.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
Married like the like number four Nazi.

Speaker 3 (01:10:31):
Yeah, was married to him. What I mean, I think
he was killed in Nuremberg by then. But fuck, fuck,
you know, like you're not like a chill person if
your sister nope, gets married to that half sister or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
Let's let's just let's just guess that you're not like
super open minded.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
Right, you can't.

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):
There's no way she was like a conscientious objector prop
the fucking.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
There's a there's a there is a percentage, but it
is a seven percent.

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
When their sister marries Joseph Goebels Gobels Gerbels, that's heavy
duty and not a good association. Now that that has
nothing to do with the case, I just found it
very interesting, all right. So this guy who's the former referee,
profile Greg McCrary. He was involved as an expert witness

(01:11:21):
for the Third Trial, which was a civil suit brought
on by Sam Sheppard Junior in nineteen ninety nine, saying
that his father had been wrongfully imprisoned like he was
suing them to be like his.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Dad was still in prison.

Speaker 3 (01:11:34):
No, he was just trying to clear his dad's name.
God died in nights. Since seventy I was gonna forgot it. Sorry,
end with that. But in ninety nine, the son who
like clearly had some fucking Stockholm syndrome?

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
Am I wrong?

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Well, I mean, I mean we're.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
Getting sued by him anyways, let's fucking let's just really
go for it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Well, seriously, if that happened and your father was like,
believe me, I didn't do it. As the child, it's
like those girls in the staircase. As the child of
that person, you're like, he absolutely didn't do it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
I need to believe him. This is my last living parent. Yeah,
something so horrifying happened in my mom.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
It can't be the worst thing, which is what everyone
is saying it is.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
It can't be that, especially when you know since the
sixties you've been insisting it wasn't and you can't be
like I was wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Dad admitted it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
To and all of like popular culture is insisting he was.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
I mean, there's just as much evidence that he did
it then as there is that he didn't do it.
Like this is a definitely one of those. This is
like a Jambet opinion case. There's no answer, So he
loses that case. And so Greg McCrary says, when you
look at the case closely and distill it to his essence,
you can see that it's nothing more than a stage

(01:12:50):
domestic homicide.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
And as for the murder weapon, it's sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
That's that expert guy.

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):
Yeah, okay, he examined all the evidence and it's a
really interesting crime library article about it. As for the
murder weapon, it's just one small sentence note at the
end of a police report saying that a small lampshade
was found on a bookcase in a room on the
second floor. That no lamp was found in the murder room,

(01:13:16):
but Sam's notebook land the night stand ready for late
night calls, So how would he have taken notes without
any light? And also a local lamp fixer dude said
the days before he had fixed and returned a lamp
to their residence and I'm guessing it wasn't found, but
there's not a lot of information on that, but.

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
This dude said that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
All right, So here's the other weird, fucking, not not
havnything to do. With this, but so Shepherd's third wife,
Colleen Strickland Shepherd is the daughter of a professional wrestler,
Oh bring it full circle in my relationship with Vince
of the Rewatch Wrestling podcast, So George Strickland introduced Sheppard

(01:13:56):
to a professional wrestling and trained him to be a wrestler.
He may his debut in August nineteen sixty nine at
the age of forty five as quote killer Sam Shepherd.

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
What yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
I'm sorry, yeah, what after he's out of jail?

Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
Uh huh, And he drew a huge crowd. I'm looking
for Vince Vince's I said, hey, do you know anything
about this dude? And he was like, here's this Like
he just didn't care.

Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
What was he just broke and needed money or like.

Speaker 1 (01:14:27):
Yes, Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
There's a really great episode of The Memory Palace, which
is one of my favorite podcasts that has like this just.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
Quick, beautiful the way he does.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
I think it's episode eighty six about what his life
might have been like at that point, which was he
was broke, he was trying to have a private practice.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
No one wanted to go to him.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
Oh that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
He married this woman whose dad was a professional wrestler,
and he drew huge crowds. Oh my god, I know
so and his like, I think his dad committed suicide,
his mom died, like all this crazy shit.

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):
So he was a wrestler for a short time.

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
He wrestled over forty matches, and Vince says, I believe
he came up with the mandible claw, which was eventually
made popular by Mankind Mick Foley my fair wrestlers.

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
Which I love Mankind, are you?

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
He's such a sweet angel.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
I saw that documentary about him knowing nothing about wrestling
at all, and I was like, every time after that,
I would just be like, what about Mankind?

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
Oh my god, I love him, Mick Foley, Angel, baby
love him. He's so sweet.

Speaker 3 (01:15:30):
So he has this crazy fucked up and in the
memory palace, he's like, everyone who's watching him fight wonders
if he's thinking about the night he fought his wife,
Like it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
Oh god, I know.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
I didn't even think about that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
That's why he got a big fucking crowd.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
Oh that's so dark.

Speaker 3 (01:15:48):
So he wrestled over forty matches before his death in
April nineteen seventy from liver failure, and we don't fucking
know Georgia.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
That was so also say name who is sane?

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
Thank you?

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
There were so many things.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
Now we have to read that book by Errol Morris,
because Errol Morris is convinced that it was that he
didn't do it, that the whole thing was like a setup,
and that the guy that rode wrote Fatal Vision whose
name I can't remember, basically exploited every tiny thing so
that he could make money because he knew and see

(01:16:28):
I don't know the timeline, but basically that he was
copying the guy that wrote the wrote Helter Skelter, and
he wanted that Helter Skelter money, and so he basically
went in and made it seem like he was guilty,
I guess.

Speaker 3 (01:16:43):
Or that's the that's the fucking owl versus staircase argument,
you know what I mean. It's just this thing of
like you can be adamant about something and then there
are these little pieces of evidence that you just can't
explain away. Yeah, so I don't in Sanwich, Joan Binet,
like I love, I prefer the theory that it was
in the family in the same way I prefer that Sam.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
Shepherd did it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:06):
But I would love to hear why he didn't, and
I'd love to hear the evidence that they didn't. But
then I will always come back with you, but to
you with like, okay, but how do you explain that?
You know, It's just that's why I love cold cases.
It's so much more.

Speaker 1 (01:17:18):
There's no period on it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
Yeah, that's true. Well, also just the idea, like it
seems like he has this perfect storm of people in
his life where everybody could be guilty. Like what I
would love to now know is the nurse that he
was having the affair with. I would just love a Oh, yes,
she did have a short stint it, you know, after
coming at somebody with a knife.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
She didn't kill her second and third husband.

Speaker 2 (01:17:44):
Something like that, where you're just like, now it's hurt. Now,
it's hert now.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
I never even thought of her. That's fun, it's kids fun.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
But it makes me think of that Harrison Ford movie
spoiler spoiler spoiler aler alert.

Speaker 3 (01:17:58):
Well, The Fugitive that was a TV show right that
was made based on Sam Shepherd.

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
And it was a Harrison Ford movie. It's one of
the best movies. Really, you've never seen the Future, You
better fucking see it. Well they say that that eve tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:18:11):
Okay, they say that that clouded so many people's images
because they don't remember what's from the Fugitive and what's not.

Speaker 2 (01:18:18):
Yeah, that's right because it's so similar where it's a
guy that's a guy running because his wife is murdered
and he is so looks so guilty that he knows
he can only run, and he's a doctor.

Speaker 3 (01:18:30):
Well, it's based on him. So the other thing about
it is that that that evening, it was July third,
they had their neighbors over who ended up finding you know,
he called to come over and look at the body.
They had them over for dinner that night, and they
said that they were loving and sweet and wonderful, and
then Sam Shepherd falls asleep on like they see him
fall asleep on the couch, and it's like, okay, is

(01:18:50):
that legitimate. You can argue that they were in love still,
or you could argue that they were he was trying
to get evidence that they were happy and normal and
he was sleeping. And what makes me think it's that
is that he was also fucking another woman. Yeah, so
they're not happy in loving and everything's fine, and he
falls asleep on the couch. He's fucking someone else at work,

(01:19:10):
and he needs them to see have his fucking alibi.

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
Yeah, and maybe maybe the wife is happy and loving
because she doesn't know about the other ones, so she's
having a totally different relationship and a different experience, which
and he's this crazy mastermind. I remember also seeing something
in the whatever that like very short amount that I
saw in the inn the some documentary about it and

(01:19:39):
then turned off. But one of the things was when
he they brought him into the hospital, like after you know,
he was he was brought in and his brother examined
him and all that kind of stuff, that he was
completely stone faced, emotionless. No matter who talked to him.
He was not crying, he wasn't shaking. It was as
if he was just kind of like there.

Speaker 1 (01:20:00):
Well, he could have been in shock. Now I'm arguing
for him. He could have just been in shock.

Speaker 2 (01:20:04):
He could have been in shock.

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):
Well.

Speaker 3 (01:20:05):
The other thing is too that they named all his
injuries and shit, but they were all on the left
side of his body, which could either mean that the
fucking killer was left handed or he just took his
right hand and beat the shit out of himself with
his right hand.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
What are the odds that you'd only have yeah, bruises
on one side. Yeah, unless unless his arm.

Speaker 3 (01:20:25):
The fucking he bashes in his arm and he can
only hit with his I mean, so fun, It's not fun,
it's horrible.

Speaker 1 (01:20:33):
Marilyn fucking bless her soul.

Speaker 2 (01:20:35):
Well, it sucks. It's the fact is horrifying, the theorizing
and the possibility, because these are people's real lives. Like,
of course, aside from the victims, there's the possibility of
another victim, which is this doctor who people are You
can see it either way, like the Victim of circumstance,

(01:20:56):
which is the most romantic. I mean, there was a
TV show on for what ten years or however long
that show was on, and that movie I still can't
believe you haven't seen it. It's truly one of the best.

Speaker 1 (01:21:07):
I'm gonna watch it as soon as it's so great The.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Jones.

Speaker 3 (01:21:12):
Yeah, I mean, there has to be a couple of
these people who are found guilty or who we all
think are guilty, that we're fucking not and well, and
there's still one hundred pieces of evidence that I could
argue that makes them look guilty. Yeah, and those that sucks,
and we just never know who those people are unless
DNA comes along and exonerates them some kind of.

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
Weird like we grab the air in the room and
that's somehow in the future proofs this or that some
future air my air DNA theory. Dude, I love it,
but it's it's exactly like the beginning of Shawshank Redemption,
where it's like, yes he was drunk, Yes he was
angry at his wife, Yes she was having affair, Da
da da. He still didn't kill her, but he goes

(01:21:54):
to jail for it, and he couldn't look guiltier and
there's nothing he can do. And it's just that kind
of like it it does happen.

Speaker 3 (01:22:00):
I've thought about that, like with Vince of like I
almost I don't know what happened. I also drop something
on my head the other day, and I was like,
Vince is sitting here with me, like I wonder who
wouldn't believe him that he said that I fucking drop
something on my stupid head. Yeah, on your own hand,
on my own stupid head, right, And like.

Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
Except for he can't because you've talked so much about
thinking he might kill you, you've actually made your.

Speaker 3 (01:22:26):
Own like insurance that he that he will be arrested, and.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
I will be the first one to ring the doorball
and be like, dude, I'm so sorry, but I simply
must you're under arrest. You're under citizens or citizens, you're
under podcast arrest.

Speaker 3 (01:22:40):
Vince has I just want to clarify, Vince has never
done anything to me or at me or near me.

Speaker 2 (01:22:44):
This is one of Vince is the guy who this
is basic. This is basic anytime or anywhere. You guys
came to my rap party. You were my guests at
my rap party, and Vince's like, as you and I
are hot gossing, Vince is like, what can I get you?
We just walked in. I mean, you guys have just
walked You.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
Need another do you need another day? Cut? Like, He's just.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
He's the greatest. So it would be such a turn
if he killed you.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):
It would be funny.

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):
It's the perfect he's building, the perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
I mean I would be surprised.

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):
I would be like, way and that last moment, You're like,
you know what, I gotta give this up to you
go ahead, and he's like, she didn't fight you earn this?

Speaker 1 (01:23:23):
She laughed because she's a monster. Oh my god. This
is such a horrible conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
This is one of the greatest. Okay, we are back
door to any updates on this case.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):
Oh my gosh, what a famous case. No updates. Still
haven't seen the Fugitive. I will remedy that this weekend.
I swear, I swear.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
I mean truly. I would put the Fugitive up there
with pride and prejudice in terms of a watchability repeat
watchability movie. Yes, okay, it's just taught it is. It
snaps along.

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
Okay, I'm in I'm in here four like who doesn't get.

Speaker 2 (01:24:01):
In there with him?

Speaker 1 (01:24:02):
Yeah, I'll watch it.

Speaker 3 (01:24:03):
Okay, I promise I'll watch it this weekend, which doesn't
matter for today's episode, but no, it does.

Speaker 2 (01:24:07):
This is actually a private conversation we should be having
off Mike.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:24:11):
But at least I got my promise out of Georgia. Okay,
so now we're going to do the retitle this episode,
which was a great episode. By the way, I love
we both compliment each other. We both are very impressed
by the other person's storytelling ability.

Speaker 1 (01:24:23):
In the Analiad episode fifty five or.

Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
Figuring it out, it only took us about a year
or so and we start to hit our stride. So
this episode originally was titled Let's Hear Your Podcast The
Argument Starter, Right.

Speaker 1 (01:24:38):
So maybe let's do it a little nicer.

Speaker 3 (01:24:40):
If we were naming it today, maybe we would call
it the Furniture Hour.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
That's nice because of my new ikea furniture That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:24:48):
We really spent some time talking about it. We could
also title it Reel Up and Armors about Woosta.

Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
That was the beginning I think about yeah, about corrections, corners,
about pronouncing yeah, cities.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
Like spell it like you say it. That was the beginning,
at the dawning of that where also it's like, that's
one of those cities that's nothing like it, and people
are real aggressive about you when you get it wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:25:10):
They're tough there. I don't want those are people I
don't want to piss off too, So like, can you
just change the spelling word that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
I don't want to piss you off. At the same time,
I don't know you, I don't know what your say. Sorry,
I don't know you, just like you would you would
mispronounce the basketball if you came around where I live.

Speaker 1 (01:25:23):
That's true.

Speaker 3 (01:25:24):
It's good luck with that and then we could also
call it of course, which is I still use that
to this day.

Speaker 2 (01:25:33):
Yeah. You're trying to read and talk and podcast all
at the same time. Sometimes you need a little like
hold music.

Speaker 1 (01:25:39):
Yeah, that's what I do. Well, thank you gys for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:25:45):
Yeah, this was a great one.

Speaker 1 (01:25:46):
We hope you liked it too.

Speaker 2 (01:25:48):
Yeah, and we'll let Elvis say goodbye.

Speaker 1 (01:25:50):
Yeah, good bye, ladies.

Speaker 2 (01:25:55):
And gentlemen, stay sexy and don't get a murder. Bye Elvis.

Speaker 1 (01:26:03):
You want a cookie?

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
Oh yeah you do, he does.

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
Bye.

All Episodes

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 55: Let's Hear Your Podcast

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 55: Let's Hear Your Podcast