Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 66: The Devil's Number - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new commentary,
updates and insights, and you are welcome.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Today we're recapping episode sixty six, which we named the
Devil's Number, which isn't true.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
It isn't true at all. Okay, we're five hundred and
forty four away forty three. This episode came out on
April twenty seventh, twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Okay, let's listen to the intro of episode sixty six.
You said, what did you say, cross your.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Cross your t's, and dot your everything. That's us tightening up,
the tightening the ship.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, you know, trying to be correct.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Trying to fucking do it right.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yeah, just be a profectals, that's the goal, that's the dream.
So cross your t's and dire everything.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
It's not gonna happen on this episode.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Nope.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstark.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
That's Karen kill Gareth.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
This is the show where we talk about our favorite
true crime stories and other things.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
I love that our ads, like, I'm having so much
more fun with our ads now that we're like saying
what they're saying, you know, like our tone of voice
in them being very normal.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, we're practicing being normal. We're practicing having professionals speaking voices.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
I think it's working.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
I like it. It's good practice.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Hi, because you've just been asked to be the voice
of McDonald's.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, that's me chicken McNuggets.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Can I start off with business? Yeh, way up front,
this is important. The story that I told last week
about Ronnie Chasen's murder her shooting death was taken entirely
from an article that a man named Gary Baum wrote
for The Hollywood Reporter, and I did not credit him
until the fifty minute mark, and somebody called me out
about it on Twitter, and of course at first I

(02:09):
was very offended and completely I texted Stephen. I was like,
this isn't possible.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Can I remember you mentioning it too? Yeah, Like it
was clear to me what you were saying.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
But I think the thing, the important thing and the
reason I'm pointing it out like this is because the end,
when I went to listen back, it wasn't even full credit.
The way I said it was almost like I was
citing him for the following quote as opposed to everything
I'd been saying. So just to make that point, my
apologies to Gary Baum of the Hollywood Reporter. I did

(02:40):
not mean to take credit for your hard work. I
feel like the only reason that story is out there
is because of the articles he's written, based on the
research he's done on these files that Beverly Hills Police
is released, and it's all him. I was just reading
his quotes and his timeline chronology, all of it. So
I should have said that the very beginning where it belongs,

(03:02):
and I apologize for not doing that.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
So sometimes at the very end, you know, we'll be like,
and I got a lot of help from this article
by this person, So maybe we should say that in
the beginning, even if it's not the whole thing, right.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
I mean, I you know, we could go through and
pull It's the thing is this we're never about Like
I went down and read these files at the you know,
police station or whatever like, But that doesn't mean people
that are listening know that, or give us the benefit
of the doubt or understand. So I think that's especially
for me as a professional writer, being accused of plagiarism

(03:38):
is a horrible feeling. And something that I never want
to keep the door open on. So I will always
cite from now on and just be very careful. But
I think it's also it's good to get called on something,
because that's the line that get Once it gets sloppy,
it just gets sloppier for me. Anyway. It's like I'm
always like, oh, I have to do my book report

(03:59):
at the last minute, and then it's you to me
that's like, oh, it's this built an excuse to like
be sloppy, and there's no excuse for that. You can't
do that.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
The thing of like, well this was already said perfectly,
so I'm gonna do that, right, but you could put
your spin on it.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Well, in the past, we've always just gone, I'm totally
reading you. This article from like the I five Killer
was almost all ESPN dot com article or like most
of the timeline and most of that bulk of information.
So like that's how we do it. We're retelling you
articles that we've read. But you just have to say it.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, that's not what we're always doing. So I don't
want that's not this podcast.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
I'm sorry, That's what I'm always doing.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
No, no, no, no, no, that's not what this podcast is. So
that was a dot your everything corner or across your
tea corner.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
That's exactly right. But are those two different things?

Speaker 1 (04:48):
No?

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yes, no, yes or no? You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (04:54):
I do? I do?

Speaker 1 (04:55):
Oh? Can I This is a good segue into my
podcasting favorites. Now, okay, can I do this? So I'm
now listening to in my fucking quest to always be
listening to a like a season long narrative true crime
podcast that I'm obsessed with and then finish in a
week and I'm fucking devastated. I love that.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
That's the at the end. It's like you're throwing yourself
off a cliff on purpose for a good story.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah. I need them. You've craved those things.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
And then you grieve them when it's over it.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, and I'm like, what are we doing with my
fucking life now? And then I find a new one,
thank fucking God. So please listen. Keep making them investigative journalists,
and Georgia will keep not throwing herself off a cliff
for them. It's called The Accused, and it's about this
this chick name Elizabeth Andy's in Ohio and nineteen seventy

(05:48):
eight who got murdered and like some dude, they arrested
him and he went to trial twice and was acquitted,
and like, who fucking did it? And this chick who's
like researching it is awesome and ask the hard question
to the cops and stuff, but with like a really cute,
sweet voice, so it's not I like it. Oh and
then oh, the other thing I was going to say

(06:08):
is speaking of just reading articles. This is my new
sleeping podcast is called Mysteries Abound, and it's just this
dude with a most soothing British accent you've ever heard,
and he's just reading articles of mysterious things that have happened.
So it's like Mars and murder. And then like you know, uh,

(06:29):
people who people who have Seriously, how do I fucking
turn this alarm off my watch? I don't know, it's
always done that.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Just once a day you have to think about it.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah, in the middle of a podcast.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Anyways, I've been falling asleep to it and that sounds awesome.
It's so soothing.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
And they're real mysteries. Like he's not just making stuff up, No,
he's reading.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
Them from like this is from uh, this article written
by so and so, and he'll just read it. Yeah,
and so, you know, the whole podcast is I'm reading articles.
But in the beginning he's like, I found this one,
I found that one, and I'll save some of them
because I'm like, well, I want to listen to this
when I'm awake because it's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Does it affect your dreams? Do you ever have that?

Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah? But then I'm ready to fall asleep in the
car when I'm like listening to the episode of like
that's about you know this person who disappeared? If I
have unexplained disappearances.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
And then your eyes are just suddenly getting heavy. Yeah,
you hypnotize yourself with mystery.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
And then I put my sleep apma mask on. How
did this skin my car?

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Hey? What the whole thing is just And then suddenly
you're in seventh grade and you have to take a test. No,
this is the worst. My thing was I always had
My dream was always I had to go back and
I'd be like thirty five and I'd have to go
back to high school and play a softball game, and
I'd be like, you, guys, this is a this isn't
fair because I'm old and b I can't, I won't

(07:51):
be good, Like why are you making me do this?
Trying to reason with everybody, and they're just like, come on.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
When you have to do something in your dream that
you really don't want to do, you could get out
of in real life by saying you, you know, have
a headache. Yeah, fuck this, I have a high the headache.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Fuck this forward slash. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
It's just like I feel like, up until you were eighteen,
you just had such a such little control over your
life and we're still getting over it. And like when
I realized when I was like, had my first job
at fifteen, and I walked into the candy out and
I was like, I don't have to ask anyone if
I could buy any fucking I could gorge myself on
candy right now.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
It was really freeing.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, and I did because it was your money. It
is my money to do whatever you want.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah. Yeah, I was there alone because you know, my
parents neglected me.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
For a second. I thought you met you worked at
that place, so you were like, you worked at the
place where you could get the thing you wanted.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
I worked at a place and had money to get
the thing I wanted. Yeah, but then when I worked
in a bakery, yes, I would fucking accidentally break a
ton of cookies.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Oh man, I worked at the coffee shop once that
made the best oatmeal chocolate chip.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
Cookies, or those like you know, those like Chantilly almond
cookies that are like what are those called Florentines?

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yes, the ones that are shaped like that they have
at Starbucks, that are shaped like shells circular.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
No, that's a Madeline shit. I mean, I'll leave any
fucking cookie that's good to it.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
But a florentine is what like?

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Is it like crackly thin? Like?

Speaker 2 (09:29):
Does it have sugar on the top?

Speaker 1 (09:30):
No?

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Does it? Does it have a face? Its own face?

Speaker 1 (09:34):
No, you're thinking of one of those clown ice.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Cream Oh that's right, that's right, a clown ice cream
from baskt Rob.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yes, there it is, Stephen. Is that what they're called quarantine?

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Dude?

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yes, kind crisp thin almondy one. It's like almond and
maybe like something like caramel, says the girl who fucking
worked in baking for seven years of her life. It
must be caramel, yeah, because they're chewy or is it
like a brown sugar?

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Sounds screaming now, I'm making weird salive a noise. Like
they have these Trader Josh.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
And they're half dipped in chocolate, yes the bottom. So
I can't buy those because I'll fucking eat them all.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Same here my dad started buying those.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Oh, I know, Steven Stephen showing me and I'm like, honey.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Steven started to pass the pictures around. Look, honey, don't
show me a picture of the thing I've eaten one thousand.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
Listen, don't show me anything. Can I introduce this this saying.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Don't show me anything?

Speaker 1 (10:27):
And now this is another thing I say all the
time that nobody knows what it means except for me,
and I think it's hilarious. Is there was this j
Lo documentary quote documentary when like on VH one, when
she was like making her clothing line for the first
time and like early two thousands, and someone shows her
this gene thing and she's like, I don't like it,
and they're like, well, this is it, We've already manufactured,

(10:49):
and she goes, don't show me nothing. I can't change, Yeah,
show me nothing, Like why are you? And then why
are you showing this to me? And so sometimes she's like,
don't show me anything I can't change. Please, that's right.
Won't show me nothing I can't change.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
That's I love her. Oh sorry, I loved Jack.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
What a bitch. And you know, and you could see
the girl who was like fresh out of fucking fit,
fresh out of like fashion design college, just having an
interor meltdown.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yes, that's a serious mistake. And it's like, oh, but
we've already made fifty thousand.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah, but this is what you said you wanted. Yeah,
and she's like, but now that the cameras are rolling
it to seem like you're the boss.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah. Well and also you got a double check and
maybe triple check that she did.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
I bet you she did, think so, I think she did.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
I'd love the behind the scenes.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Uh, it's like the fake behind the scenes and the
real behind the scenes would be.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Just I mean, anyways, that's the show people actually want
to see.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
Uh huh. Yes, the footage of the footage that.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
Wasn't the footage that explains the behavior.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
That's what we'll have if we ever have it doc
You just like ram.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
No holds barred, every single every single thing showed.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Karen, your hair looks great, and then be going why
does Karen's hair look better for.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Night fired fired hired. Then you hire somebody that doesn't
do hair. No, here, it's to prove a point. Yeah,
and you get them in there they do hair better
than the person I have. Then, so then I lure
your person a welling.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
God, melt down. Fuck, this is good. Then I fucking
shaved my head just to be like, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
Well, and that puts you in all the papers. You
get the most publicity.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
It's just all I want in life.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
God, this is Stephen. You're writing this down right, This
is the point. Oh, it's being recorded.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
We don't wait for recording. Wait a second, Okay, do
you want to do you want news? I can do
news corner. I wrote some stuff down. Some of it's
not that great news corner about a crime thing.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, do it?

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Okay. So, uh, this was so hard for me not
to tell you at the airport when we were on
our way home from uh Austin, Oh, because I read
it and I was like, this is so in Massachusetts
a crime lab. This woman named Annie Duke can was
a restored for mishandling sixty thousand samples of it was
a drug crime lab. She like tested sixty thousand samples,

(13:07):
and she mishandled them for thirty four thousand defendants. One
hundred and forty of those people were inmates because of
her mishandling. Oh so they have to let twenty three
convicted people convicted got their sentences over to No.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Are they convicted of drug crimes? Yes, So that doesn't
bother me that much that.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
They're convicted of drum crimes or they're they're to let go,
and I agree, And then they're keeping the people who
also had violent you know, it wasn't just a drug crime.
It was like a violent felony added onto that. They're
retrying those people. Fuck, so these twenty three thousand people,
twenty thousand o them, let's say, who were like I
had an ounce of weed in my pocket, you know

(13:46):
what I mean. Yeah, they're like, oh, well it wasn't weed,
it was a regano. But this chick Annie like fucked
it up purposely, really purposely. She was trying to put
people away. She was trying to be the top dog
and look how great I am at this job, and
like have the most convictions and like, but she was
just and all the people who worked with her were
like this isn't right, And the people who were her

(14:07):
boss were like, no, this is great. Oh so they're
trying to get an oversight on at crime Labs.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
Now there's the new that's the TV movie I want
to see. But it reminds me of the story that
I told you last week of the body that was
found in the car with the Uber sticker on it.
And then a bunch of people wrote to us and
said was it because you know, Kuba Gooden Junior's father
was found dead in a car, but the guy in

(14:34):
the car that I read about was in his thirties
and so it's not the same. A bunch of people
were saying, what if this is what if this is the.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Thing, but COVID coatings Junior could his dad. That's what
I don't know. That happened.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, it happened the same day. And that's why a
bunch of people were writing to us.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
That's insane.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
I have one more thing about podcasts. I'm not saying
like you're.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
You're going back to podcast recommendation because.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
And we both need to listen to this. This week, Fresh
Air has an interview with a woman who was a
doctor at Bellevue Hospital with mentally ill inmates for ten years.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
Dude, I saw somebody tweeted that to us, and I
saw there is an amazing America Undercover, which used to
be an HBO series A Day in the Life at
Bellevue that we watched. This was in the nineties and
talked about four months afterwards because it's so disturbing, it's unbelievable,
but it's also just that life to be a doctor.

(15:31):
I mean, that's what my mom did for a living.
So like to also watch it and just be like, yeah,
this is your day to day.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
It's so intense and you like, you know everything is wrong,
but if you leave, it's just gonna get wronger because
you're a good person trying to help, so like you
can't really take yourself out of it because you feel
like you need to try to do something to help.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Well. Yeah, and most of those people have an incredible
obviously like thick skin, but like they're not gonna quit.
That's not that's not it there. They just like get
stronger and tougher as the insanity grows around. I mean,
it's it's so intense. I would love to hear that
interview too.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
It's just crazy the way mental mental illness was treated
back then in a way that is horrifying to watch
that documentary.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
It's yeah, yeah, well that just made me think of
something else. Oh, I want you and I together? Can
we please promise to watch Casting Joen Benet together? Absolutely,
it's this Sunday.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yes, Okay, can I come over because there's a wrestling
thing that Vince's girl? Yes, watching here?

Speaker 2 (16:40):
We can do it from my house. Okay, so good.
Then Casting Jambrenet is on the books Real Time Feelings.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Definitely do we live tweet or is that going too far?

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Sure we could live tweet it.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Let's do it? My favorite going too far?

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Or have we truly crossed the line this time?

Speaker 1 (17:00):
My favorite murder on Twitter? Is what we are on Twitter?
It's what we are. It's who we it's.

Speaker 2 (17:05):
Who we've it's who we've lived as so long now,
it's our identity, it's our spirit.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Go ahead, Uh, I'm done.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
No, No, we want to talk about those cards that
we got.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Oh my god, present corner. Everything may have to be
a corner. I need to stop it.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
We're recording in the daytime today and it's got a
real I feel like we're really forced to analyze ourselves
on this episode, we're really there's a lot of shoegazing,
a lot of internal uh analysis.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
In the light of day, this podcast looks real different.
There's no there's no Stephen doesn't have a beer. I
don't have wine.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Everyone's pores are really big.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Oh and the reason we're not recording from yesterday and
in the evening is because one of my biggest fears
in the fucking world happened, which is that a fucking
big rig jumped the center Divideruck. Is that true came
into oncoming traffic, which is like a big fucking yeah.
Like I know when you're going like eighty in the
fast lane and the center divider is like a brick. Yeah,

(18:14):
and you're like, any person could just jump over. I
picture it happening.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, Well it did happen.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
Did happen out like down the street from both.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Of us, Yeah, so it basically between our houses it happened.
And then Steven texts and is like, oh no, like
all these exits are closed, I can't get anywhere near
your house. And immediately I'm like, oh, well, should we rescheduled?
Just immediately, like okay, let's reschedule. Hy bye, bye, cancel,
cancel the house today. I love to cancel. Okay, So anyway,

(18:46):
we uh, Georgia put this on Instagram. We got these
cards in the mail that are the most amazing greeting
cards and they are there's a hand drawn and they're
like just basically illustration. You know, what do you call
those pen and ink or something?

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Pen and ink?

Speaker 2 (19:08):
Is that redundant? Inc I feel like pen and ink
is a term, but I can't be wrong, But anyway, sketches. Yeah,
they're like it's a drawing. So it's like a picture
of John Wayne Gacy and then it says who ordered
the birthday clown?

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Or the Stephen King? The Ted Bundy one I love,
it's you know it's and it's a portrait of an
actual photo of them that you've seen before, and it says,
does anyone want to help me carry these birthday presents
to my cards?

Speaker 2 (19:35):
And then that one that Ted Bundy eyes are nuts?

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Oh my god, they're great. And then the one of
Richard Ramirez holding his hand up in court, which usually
has a pentagram on it, but instead it what does
it say is happy birthday, which is like, okay, it's
it might cross a line. Somewhere, but it's like horrifying
serial killers that you know are big in the society
and we all know. So I don't think it's like.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
No, it's just references. It's like you've seen his picture
a thousand times now it's a birthday card.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
And then okay, on top of that two things, he
wrote a note with it in the style to us
in the style of the Zodiac Killer, including saying at
the end like, hey, I hope you like these blah
blah blah. I shot a man sitting in a parked
car with a thirty eight like reading at the end,
and then it says John John twelve s fpds like

(20:24):
it's got all the characteristics of Zodiac And then so
you can go to etsy dot com slash shop and
the name of his Etsy is depressive ghoule gho. You well,
but it came to my house, your house house, which
is my home.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
Just so I uh, unsettling. I brought this package to
Stephen and Georgia when we were recording ads last Friday,
and I said, let's open this together. But just so
you know, this got sent to my house.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
And then you know, Karen is fiercely private, so I'm
just like my dog's fiercely private and so so it
was a little scary, but then they were so funny
that we weren't that scared anymore because we were just
laughing and kind of like going, can I have this one?

Speaker 2 (21:06):
I want this one?

Speaker 1 (21:07):
No one that clever. There's even a Mother's Day one
from like ed Gean, Yes, like no one that clever
can be dangerous or they are.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
It's like all right, And meanwhile we're looking at pictures,
all pictures of people who are that clever and that dangerous.
But we're so good so anyway, so Georgia puts it
we love them so much. Georgia puts it on Instagram.
Blah blah blah. Then two days later I get a
DM from my Twitter friend John Fryler, and he writes, Hey,
I'm glad you like those cards. It seems like people

(21:34):
on Instagram are mad at me for sending them to
your house, though, and then I realize that this I
know this person, and he asked me. He was like,
I think he tried to send them to the po
box and they got sent back. So I just gave
him my home dress. My friend John Fryler, who is
he He's a guy I know on Twitter and basically
I've known him for It's just that where he was like,
I love your podcast, Can I send you this thing?

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Did you have any idea how fucking talented this human? No?

Speaker 2 (21:59):
I had no idea how talented he was, and I
had absolutely no memory of the conversation whatsoever until he
basically was scared because Murderinos were like, hey, motherfucker, leave
them alone. No, yes, and so he was basically coming
back with funny.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
I didn't. I didn't truly think someone was gonna come
attack you.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
No, I know, but I think it's that thing of
like they don't want to be represented that way of
like yeah we're not Yeah, we don't want to be
creeps to you, So don't be a creep to them.
And he's like, hey, guess what. Everybody I wasn't like.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
We tried to give him a boost to like sell
his cards, and they're like, fuck you. It turned on him.
I'm sorry, John. Everything about your package was amazing, amazing.
I was gonna give my mom what's the Mother's day?
Other Mother's Day one I can't remember, edgean and then
something else, and I was like, I'm going to get
this to my mom, just to horrify her for her

(22:50):
Mother's Day. Ed Kemper the co ed killer and staid
the thing, it's so funny, Ed.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Kemper, he really did not like his mother. No, So anyway,
those are amazing and hilarious and that whole story. If
he hadn't written to me forever, I would have been
just a little bit worried. In the back of my mind.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
You'd hear crunk leaves at night. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
But also what's funny is I was like, Oh, we
talked about that six months ago, and then I checked
it was like a month ago. Horrifying. Oh we're good, horrifying,
We're good. Also, Uh, this is just the anecdote I
wanted to tell you. The other day, April and I
were at our pre where we do our show hangout

(23:30):
and I went to the bathroom and I was standing
there and there's a woman that was waiting and she's like, sorry,
there's somebody in there, and they're taking a really long time.
And we stood there for five full minutes.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Are you a knocker? I'm a knocker.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
I have a full arm knocker and a rage knocker.
So I was just like, get the fuck out of there.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Three minutes.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, so that's what you have. Finally a guy comes
out of the men's room and then the woman there,
another girl came and was waiting behind me, and we
were both like, just he's the men's room. They're singles
for sure. So she goes in there. The girl behind
me steps up to like, wait, so now she's second
in line or whatever, and she looks and goes, oh
my god, I was just listening to your podcast whatever.
So we have a moment. Her name was Mia, I

(24:08):
believe from what I remember. We have a moment, chit
chat whatever. And then we're just and I knock again
the whole thing and does anyone respond no? And I
was like, I was like, nice, we need to get
a waitress over here. I go, I bet someone's passed
out on the toilet. Well, finally Mia steps up and
tries the door knob and it's open. We were standing

(24:30):
there for I'm not kidding, like almost ten minutes with
an empty, unlocked bathroom door, just standing there.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Oh my god, and like, and you got angry out
of it, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
I was mad twice.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Oh my god. When the other girl came out of
the men's room where you're like, listen, bitch.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
No, that was she was like coming gone, but when
she opened it, I just yelled dude in her face
and walked it like it was the funniest moment. It
was really fun. It was a fun moment. Hi, Hi
to you. I hope your name was Mia, because I'm
pretty sure it was.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
That's good, man. People need to We were talking about
at live shows, and I'm fucking a big fan of
this because it's like seventy percent women that before the
show starts and there's like Vince goes out to like
look around and he's like, there's the craziest line in
the women's restroom. And I know that in on the
weekends at the Ferry Building in San Francisco, they'll close

(25:22):
one of the men's room two women only, and they're like, men,
go upstairs and use the bathroom because there's five of you,
and they turn the men's room into a one's room,
which I think is so fucking forward thinking and so
fucking awesome, and I appreciate it very much, and I
think we should. I think some of the places we
do shows do that already, but I think we should
all do that you're just staring at me. Do you

(25:44):
not agree?

Speaker 2 (25:45):
No, I don't know. I'm just thinking of all that,
the bathroom politics that people. I mean, it just immediately
put me in that place of like, oh, all the
people that are like and then the people that will
go into the room and all that shit where it's like, no,
that's not a real thing. Yeah, just pee, that's not Yeah,
it's a public place, You're fine, And yeah it should be.
It should be dictated by the numbers. Like have you

(26:07):
ever seen there's a really funny picture of the women's
restroom line at a Rush concert. It's like no one
there at all.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Oh my god. It's same question. And I'm not asking
for myself necessarily, But if you're in a public restaurant
it's pretty you know, sizable at the airport and you're peeing,
is a public restroom and okay place to fart?

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah, I think that's the only place, okay, because sometimes
I'm like societally acceptable.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
I mean, it's they can still hear it just as
loudly as if you were at the sink, but.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
They can't see your face. That's all that matters, right, good,
it's all about shame. Yeah, just do it where you can't.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
I mean, especially at the airport. Jesus Christ. Everyone has
gas at the airport.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Gotta do it.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Airport is fit. That's how the planes fly. They're fueled
on everyone's gas from airport food, too much alcohol, nine
bottles of water.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, nerves, nerves, fear you're gonna get dragged off the
plane for no reason.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Constipation from massive pharmaceuticals. Oh, just to get the anxiety away.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
I never thought about that. There's so many more pharmaceuticals
at the airport. Yeah, I just didn't think.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
I didn't neither.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
That's exactly right, dude, have you ever seen that? And
we'll get it then we'll get onto business skippers. Have
you ever seen that? I can't. It's not night vision,
but it's like heat vision footage of a guy that farts.
Oh no, I didn't like those so funny.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
You don't like it because they do it for people
walking on the street, not people who know.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Right, that's exactly right. But they don't show the person.
It's just the torso down. Yeah, but they just show
so you can actually see what it looks like when
someone farts. This like the cloud. It's the funniest thing
I've ever seen.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
I hate it. And it reminds me of when people
would tell the kids that if you pee in the pool,
like there's a die and it will make it show
up green. And so it's not true, but you're terrified.
It's just reminds me of that where it's like shame
right on top of you.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
That's right, Yeah, it's shaming you coming out of you human. Yes,
although peanupool is a human Peina pool's enjoyable, it's I.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
Mean, you got to expect some level of pean a pool.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
Well, yeah, especially with children, but also because if you're
in a warm enough pool, it's kind of like that
trick where you put your hand someone's sleeping hand in
a glass to make them look the better. But you're
in a pool, it's like that same feeling.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
But it's so it's so hard to get yourself to
peana pool. Like to start, you're not supposed to be
free leaping, You're not supposed to be like this is
against societal norms. You got like train not to do
this when you were too.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yes, that's true, do it, but if other people are
in the pool, that's gross.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
And then what if you had vitamins that day.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
People are swimming there, like this pool water tastes weird.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
No, but I have that yellow I love that yellow pee.
When you take vitamins yeah, and you're just like, oh fuck.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
It looks like you were in Chernobyl. And then you're like, oh, no,
that's a vitamin B.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah. Everything beats and your pea is red.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Oh I've never had that happen. You're like, oh.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
God, I'm bleeding from my pee and then you're like, over,
oh wait, a beats yesterday seriously, Oh I went to
see plantation and we are back.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Oh. We just can't talk about this enough.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
It's the citing sources issue that we learned our lesson
in last episode.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
Like every lesson that we've learned on this podcast, we
learn it publicly, and we learn it with a lot
of hostility coming from the other side. This guy wordy
fucking pissed. It was crazy. Also, it was that kind
of thing where it's an interesting way to mark time
because I was using Twitter as like a comedian and

(29:53):
a person who is just trying to post jokes, and
this is around the time I was like, I can't
use Twitter in the same way anymore. It was mostly
because I can't. You know, my favorite joke is telling
people to shut up and seeing their reaction. They didn't
like that.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
Do you think, like twenty seventeen, a male journalist coming
after you publicly in that way is like cool.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
It wasn't a cool experience. But I have to say
he was right. I mean, there's no arguing the fact
that the combination of things where it's like it looked
intentional that I didn't credit Gary Bowman until the end
of the episode for just a like basically a poll quote.
So I did it wrong, and like that's that. And
this is kind of the risk that we are always

(30:39):
against because you always do stuff wrong and like that's
fine as long as you go oh, and I think
this is kind of like how we did it from
the beginning. It's like, you know, saying prostitute because that
was what was in the article, and people writing in
and being like can you please say sex worker? Yes
we can. It's not that big of a deal to

(31:00):
say you did something wrong totally. So it was very
jolting and alarming to have a guy like yelling at
me and then I was like, okay, I'll fix It's
like that's not enough or whatever, where I'm just like, well,
I'm not in a fight with you. Was aggressive, I
don't know you, but happy to fix it, want to
fix it. And certainly I think it's interesting because that is,

(31:20):
you know, the guy that did it is basically responsible
for the way we now always make sure to cite
sources at the top of the page.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
Ye, because you know what I mean, we totally do.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah, and no one, I mean we said it before,
but it's like, no one thinks he fucking wrote these things. No,
no one believes.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
He didn't investigate now these pieces ourselves in a week.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
No. But it's also great to be able to start
naming the people who did the hard work. So it's
like we can only talk about this because Gary Baum
went out there and did the work.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah. I love that. Yeah, in a different world we
would be investigative journalists. But that's too much college.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, I just I don't think me as an owl
alcoholic I would have been able to do it in
a way. Yeah, but the beginning part. Couldn't do the
you know, school.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Same or work with depression and anxiety. Yeah, no, nothing,
not when my bet is calling.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
But thank you, Gary Baum did it yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
Oh one quick corrections corner. I refer to the host
of the podcast that I fall asleep to. Back then
it's called Mysteries Abound, And I say it was a
British Man because back then the podcast has done something
for me too. Where I now can hear the difference
between British, Australian and New Zealand accents? Yep, but I

(32:35):
couldn't then, and I called Jim Moon British. He's actually
Australian and I missed that podcast so much. Mystery doesn't
make so good. He doesn't do new ones anymore and
ended in October twenty nineteen, but you can still hear
the old episodes.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
He has such a soothing ASMR voice.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Yeah, he's talking about mysterious things like how quickly do
you want to fall asleep?

Speaker 2 (32:55):
When you think of that, it's great, yeah, because you
start kind of imagining things and then suddenly your plane
rides over. You're fine, amazing.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
And there's some updates in the Anni Dukean misconduct case
that we talked about, which led to the largest dismissal
of wrongful convictions in US history. So by twenty nineteen,
more than sixty one thousand drug convictions had to be
thrown out because the evidence couldn't be trusted in sane.
It's one of the biggest cleanups of wrongful convictions in

(33:24):
US history. In twenty twenty one, the state's highest court
erase one hundred more convictions, saying it wouldn't be fair
to make people go through new trials after the huge mistakes.
Imagine those people who had been in prison because this
woman wanted to be better at convicting than other people.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, it's happened a lot. I think there's for sure.
She's just people caught getting into that position. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
Right. In twenty twenty four, legal experts said this case
set an important rule. If the system is broken, the
state has to fix it, not the individual people who
were harmed.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
So that's great that the burden now goes to the
state to correct its mistake when systematic misconduct is uncovered.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, very important. Also very important is that we talked
about the casting John Ben a TV show, which is
still one of the weirdest experiences I feel like I've
ever We started watching that thinking you had this great
watch along idea, Yeah, and immediately we're just like stop
the tape happening. Is this Why are you doing this? Yeah?
It was very of a time. It was of that time, totally, Yeah,

(34:26):
for sure. Okay, wow, there's so much business yep, top.
But now let's get into Georgia's story about the exorcism
of Anna Lise Mitchell. Okay, I think I went first
last time, didn't I? Yes, you did, didn't I, Stephen?
I can't believe I knew.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
I can't either that you knew because I didn't. This
would have taken me ten minutes to remember.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
It's probably because I was I had to go first
for some reason. See it as a negative?

Speaker 1 (34:57):
Oh you do?

Speaker 2 (34:58):
I do?

Speaker 1 (34:59):
I wonder almost like I don't mind either way.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Like you have to break the ice or something.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
But I feel that that if you go last, then
you have to be like you have to close it hardy,
you know what I mean. So I don't like going
last because I don't, then I can let you close
it hard Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Shit, I forgot about that part.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
Okay, let's just go back and forth every week.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
That's a good idea.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
When you figured that out after how many episodes is
this seventy sixty seven sixty seven sixty Stephen? You should
know that Stephen sixty six sixty seven, good old Lucky
sixty six sixty six is not lucky.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
This is the Devil's episode.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
God, do you think we'll ever get to six hundred? Yes,
for sure, that'd be crazy, right we.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Start tripling up.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh that sounds I want to go take a nap
just hearing that. Anyways, are you ready for the exorcism
of Annalise mckew?

Speaker 2 (35:55):
Fuck?

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yes, I am, Yeah, you are all right. Annalise mckow
was born on September twenty first, nineteen fifty two, in
led Flig Nope, label flying lebel Fling, lebel Fling.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
It's not lebel Fling.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
I bet you went it l E I V L
liberal libel f I n G libel thing. Anyway. She
was born in Bavaria, West Germany. Bavaria sounds a good yeah,
West Germany, which is a pretty yeah. Okay, it's a
pretty forward thinking phase. It's not place. It's not the
fucking Styx, West Germany, you know, No Bavaria.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
No.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
Anyways. She lived with her three sisters and her parents,
and they family were devout Roman Catholics. They attended Mass
like twice a week, and Anna, as she was known
she led a pretty normal wife. You know, you see
pictures of her, there's a lot of pictures of her.
She's pretty, she looks very normal, you know. As a teenager,
she's just a normal girl. And her classmates described her

(36:57):
as withdrawn and very religious. Sorry whish part with drawn
or Mary any or the combination of the two is like,
you think you're better than you think God likes you
more than me.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah he doesn't, but you saying them being a Roman
Catholic and going to church twice a week. I just
being a raised Catholic. There's a there's a another echelon
of Catholicism of people that go multiple times a week
that makes me feel like I'm being suffocated invisibly when
I hear about it. It's just that kind of like

(37:29):
it's such a ritualistic old.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
Almost like it's all it's like it's like ancient.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
It's ancient, and it's kind of like, I don't know,
it just fit. It worries me.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
Tell us non Catholics, like fiercely non Catholics myself, what
is mass like? Because I've been in a church three
times in my life.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
It's long, It's like an hour long and it is
a series of and songs, and then in the middle
in Latin. No no no. In the fifties, and then
in this time they might have done it in Latin.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Because it's definitely done it in German, that's for sure,
at least not in English.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
But in the late fifties early sixties, I think they
passed a thing called Vatican two where they updated everything.
So like when my dad was growing up, my parents
were growing up, the Mass was in Latin and you
took Latin in school and all that. So like Vatican,
the sequel Vatikan two, this electric Bogelist came.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Out this time were not Latin anymore, that's.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Right, And they kind of basically updated it so that
it was all in English, and they cut some stuff out,
and they just made it a little more maybe livable.
I know, accessible passed a couple extra laws. I'm not
sure the details. I've been told it multiple times, so
I just don't remember anything.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
I just tried to update it from the sixteen hundreds.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
I think they allowed guitars for some certain kinds of
hippies if they wanted to do it that way. Nobody
that I knew did it that well.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Well, analyst did not have a guitar, and she did
not go to the version two point zero.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
They did not of mass at one point, you do
eat the body of Christ. That's kind of the main
point of mass.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
You snick a snack on the body of Christ.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
Like the spread afterwards is like, no, it's.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
All in the middle. You drink of his blood and
you eat of his body, and then you basically are
forgiven for all your sins, because as immortal, you sin
constantly and you have to constantly ask for forgiveness. So
it's just a little background.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
So many questions. That's that waifer, right, mm hmm. And
the blood is wine.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yeah, but in most masses, the normal people don't drink
the wine. The priest drinks it on your behalf.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
What a dick, You're like, I'm good, dude, I don't
need you to do it for me. This yeah, okay. Then,
at age sixteen, she suffers an severe epileptic fit and
is diagnosed with temporal low epilepsy and depression. That what
you have.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
I don't think I have depression, although sure get lows sometimes,
but mine is petitue.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
You have petite mal No.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Grand when I have them. They're grand.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Karen doesn't do anything half assed, but they also call.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
It seizure disorder. It's a different I'm sure it's.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Yeah, okay. She's treated at a psychiatric hospital and is
put on anti convulsion meds. I'm sure the psychiatric hospital
is not chill antipsychotics and mood stabilizers as well as
anti convulsion drugs. When the convulsions continued and none of
it alleviated the problem, she was prescribed another drug, allept

(40:44):
eloped nope, which is similar to chlorprasm. Why didn't I
take this part out? It's used in the treatment of
various psychosis, including schizophrenia, disturbed behavior, and delusions. And by
nineteen seventy three she's suffering and from depression. It starts
hallucinating while praying. She complains about hearing voices telling her

(41:06):
that she was damned and would rotten hell, and her
treatment in a psychiatric hospital did not approve her improve
her health and her depression got worse despite the meds.
Long term treatment did not help, and she'd grew increasingly
frustrated with a medical intervention. She'd tear her clothes off,
she'd eat coal, and she'd urinate on the floor and
then try to look it up.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Huh yeah, the Okay, let's.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Played diagnose her right now, she's got schizophrenia. Well she's
she's developing schizophrenia.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Or has it. But also I used to always be fascinated.
There's a there's an illness called pika, which is you
the need to eat inedible things, which it sounds like
she has, but that might be a symptom of a
bigger I think this schizophrenia.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
Itself, and pika is like you're low on some necessary.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
Minerals. Yes, yeah, yeah. A lot of people eat dry wall.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
My friend had the incredible urge. She never did it,
as far as I know, to eat laundry detergent.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
Oh yeah, well that's like on my crazy obsession. There's
a show on TLC where.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
People couch stuffing.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yes, the lady who ate the couch. Yeah, so nuts.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
So this same friend had bought, like or stole from
a pharmacy epicac oh, and she was like, i'mbeliemic, I'm
gonna try it, And then she did it and she
was like, that was the worst experience. And I think
she's stopped being billiemic after that because it was the
worst experience of her life.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
Because syrup of epicac just makes you vomit horrible.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
Everything you everything you have in your stomach. It's for
children to eat poison. Yeah, so a lot of parents
will have it on hand just in case anyways.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
And it gives you like food poisoning, barfing.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
It's it's wretching until your entire stomach contents are just gone. Anyways,
that was a sidebar.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Sidebar And also what no, just I just love how
we're just like maybe it's this and maybe it's that. Anyway.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, yeah, we're really we're really doing a service to everything.
So she finished high school and when she was twenty
she started studying at the University of Wurzburg. So she
went to university even though she had these issues. And
I couldn't complete community college.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
For more than a year, like that's I could barely
hold down a job.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
Good for her, Yeah, I mean I'd walk out of
jobs sometimes she's never come back. Her symptoms had significantly worse,
and though oh she was studying to become a teacher,
but her problems got worse. She heard voices telling her
I already said that she saw devil faces. She became suicidal,
and her family believed that she was suffering from demonic possession. Oh,

(43:43):
jump to demonic possession.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
A family friend arranged a pilgrimage to a sacred spring
in San Domiano, and her friend became convinced that she
was possessed because her inability to walk past a crucifix
and drink holy water. Do you drink holy water?

Speaker 2 (43:59):
No?

Speaker 1 (44:00):
And what's the inability? Everyone's hands have been in it?
I wouldn't neither.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, I've never heard of drinking it as a except
for in like horror movies. Okay, but what I don't know,
Maybe it's different in West Germany. I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
She became aggressive, and she took to self harming, and
she would okay, and she ate insects. She growled at
religious icons and would sit under her kitchen table barking
for two days. So the family sought help from the church.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
And then the thing that's causing the problem is where
they go for help. Yeah, I mean yeah, it's like
every single solution, aside from like the psychiatric place, every
single solution is religious base.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
Well, it's like when you hear of those parents who
like these days, who refuse to go to the doctor
to get help, and then they get arrested and their
kid dies because it really just needed penicillin or whatever
the fuck or yeah, and the kid dies and they
get they get convicted and of child neglect.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
So yeah, Anyways, many of the priests they saw said
Annalise needed a doctor. Even the priests were like, hey, yeah,
but one eventually said that she needed an exorcism, and
then she was granted one. You have to get granted
next to be exercised, under the condition that would be
done in total secrecy. And her parents were like that

(45:22):
sounds on the level. Let's fucking do it right, Like
everyone's like no, no, no, go to a doctor, go
to a doctor. One's like sure, just don't tell anyone. Yeah, great,
that's what we've been waiting to hear.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
Well, maybe because they were trying to be progressive, and
there's exorcisms are about as like retro as you could
be in the church.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
Definitely. So in seventy five, she and her parents stop
seeking medical advice altogether. So three days after her twenty
seventh birthday twenty second birthday, and over the next ten months,
father Arnold Rents and Pastor ernst Alt for sixty seven

(46:01):
exorcisms on her WHOA for fucking yeah, sick ten months
and sixty seven like series of exorcisms, and it said
that every but they say that every action that they
took during these times and rituals were all condoned by
analyst who's fucking mentally ill. She's like, yeah, bring it on,
this is what I need. Why are you letting she

(46:22):
shouldn't be she shouldn't have decision making capacities anymore.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
Well, also, what if nothing else is working? What else
are you going to do? I mean, if if you've
gone to hospitals and you've and nothing is changing it,
then of course you're like, yes, keep trying this other thing.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Yeah. They would attempt to drive the demons from her
body while she would argue with them into demonic voices,
and guess what, they fucking taped them all, audio tape
them all and videotape them.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
WHOA would you.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Rather watch and listen to one of those or listen
to a nine on one call? Uh?

Speaker 2 (46:58):
One of those? Sure?

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Having been a Catholic? Yes, it's terrifying, is it? Yeah?
I mean it's it's terrifying because it's scary and her
voice is insane. But it's also horrifying because you can
tell it's just like there's someone acting in a way
that like they're mentally ill, and it's like it was
almost like it was like a ramping her up. Yeah,

(47:21):
it's really fucking horrifying.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Wait, so when you listen to it, you didn't believe
she was possessed. You believed that she was mentally ill
and well basically answering the call that they.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Were and having fits of like moments of mental illness.
And I don't believe in Like, it's not like I
would have believed that because I don't believe in God
and the devil and all this, okay, But so all
I could see it was from a mental illness point
of view, because that's all I have to hold me
together and explain myself. Then me, she stopped eating altogether.

(47:56):
She believed it would lessen the evils control over her,
and she got so weak with her parents had to
hold her up when she got too weak to do
it herself, so they would like hold her up, take
her to bed, carry her around.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Shit.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
And there's these fucking photos, man, So she was this normal,
pretty regular young woman and the photos look like they're
from a horror movie. Oh no, I mean her like
she has these like blisters on her mouth. She ends
up being sixty pounds.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Oh no, she looks.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Like And do you ever see the photo of the
like when they found someone's sister in the back room
who had scoliosis and they just left her back there
and stars like starved her. And they found her in
like the seventies back there and took photos of her,
and she was alive, which is also terrifying. She looked
like that. She look like an old woman. Oh no,
it's really horrible, but you can tell it's her.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
I've never heard of that Scoliosa's story.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
It's really sad.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
It was making me think of a part in pet
Cemetery where the sister sits up in bed.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
It might be that.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Well, I mean, you know what, do you think that's
what it is?

Speaker 1 (49:00):
That's what that scary thing where she sits up at
least last her. Okay, that, but it looks like that. Yes,
so what I was talking about was fiction.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
No no, no, because then it also please it's like
people haven't been fucking abandoned and locked into back rooms
or whatever. No, but it just like the way you
just described that. I was like, oh wait, that's the
best part of that fucking movie. Best worst part of that.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Movie, it is. I forgot all about that part because
I thought it was real. But that's what she looked like, Okay,
essentially horrifying, unkempt, way too thin, like clearly to go from.
And you look at her and there's no way. She's
twenty two in your mind to go to that level.
Is just like the fact that they could keep doing
that to her despite this is unconscionable. So she died

(49:45):
in her sleep on July first, nineteen seventy six. She
weighed sixty six pounds. Her knees were broken due to
prolonged and repetitive geniflections.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Yeah, that was kneeling down as.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
Part of the exorcisms, and she was immobile and had ammonia.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
She broke her knees from kneeling over and over. Broke
her knees. That's fucking insane.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
The knees are hard to break. Oh, I know, man.
The autopsy reports to say that her death resulted from
malnutrition and dehydration due to almost a year of semi
starvation during the exorcisms. The death was investigated, and the
state prosecutor found that Anna's death was preventable. Even as

(50:31):
late as one week prior to her death, they could
have saved her. Her parents and the two priests were
charged with negligent homicide, and the trial began on March thirtieth,
nineteen seventy eight. The priests were defended by church paid
lawyers and the parents were defended by a dude who
claimed that the exorcism was legal, and then the German
constitution protected citizens in the unrestricted exercise of their religious beliefs.

(50:54):
So it's like, if you believe it, just do it. Yeah,
you know, it's like nike it. They played.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
It seems like you made yourself sad on that one.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
I did, because well, person, I was like, that's not
a good exorcism, just to do it, you know what
I mean. It's like, that's not.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
That's not a good attitude about exorcism. No.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
They played the court the audio tapes from the exorcisms,
which they maintained proved that she was possessed due to
the appearance of demonic voices on the tapes. The priest
tested by the Anna was possessed by several demons, claiming
to be Lucifer Cain, Judas Scariot.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Judas is Scariot. He's the one that turned on Jesus.
Thank you, you're welcome. It's in there for a reason,
and now I know why.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
That's amazing. Look at you. Who's Hitler? Now, which one
of the saints is Hitler? Hitler came out of her Yeah,
they said, also Hitler and Nero, Jesus is Jesus.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
It's all star villain. No Jesus. Jesus wasn't there are
clearly no Jesus is against them. He was nowhere to
be found in this situation.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Nope, he didn't come to visit Hitler. Fuck, guess who's
coming to dinner? Not Jesus.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
He took a pass on this dinner party.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
He latered right out of there.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Nero, my god, Nero's that the Roman what do you
call it, Caesar or Augusta whatever, the guy that, oh,
my god, I cadd He's the guy that that fiddled well,
Rome burned. He was the last emperor of Rome.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Okay, history and math and science not my thing and anything. Really.
They also noted that the exorcisms apparently finally worked. They
said it worked immediately prior to her death. So oh well,
so it worked, so unfortunate. Yeah. They also noted that

(52:49):
the uh they okay, they were found guilty of a manslaughter,
sentenced to six months imprisonment which was later suspended, and
three years of probation. And there's a photo of her
mont at the funeral, open casket like prone next to
her daughter's corpse that she effectively killed. Her story is

(53:09):
dramatized in the films The Exorcism, Emily Rose Requiem, which
I watched, and Analise the Exorcist tapes, So like, this
is where they all came from. Is pretty much the
chicks fucking experiences. Yeah, despite the fact that in nineteen
eighty four the bishops declared Annalise mentally ill. So even
the bishops were like, remember what we said, they said,

(53:30):
she's not possessed, but still her grave became a pilgrimage
center for fringe believers of course, okay. And then this
made me think of this book I recently read called
Brain on Fire by Susan Callahan. Have you heard of it? No,
It's really good, And then I looked it up to
find out details of it because in it she talks
about how this disease that she had, they now think

(53:54):
is linked to a lot of what they thought was
the exorcism signs. And so I look this up. It's
not my I'm not fucking this has already been talked
about a lot on the internet as far as Brain
on Fire is concerned. So it's not me being like,
oh my god, I just put it together like everyone
put it together. Yeah, So Susannah and book Brain on

(54:14):
Fire is really fucking good. She's twenty four, she's a
writer at the New York Post, and she starts going
fucking crazy. She comes fixated on the idea that her
home was infested with bedbugs. She like calls a bedbug
guy in to like clean out her, like what the fuck,
and he's like, there's no bed bugs in here. She's paranoid, irrational,
laughing and crying all the time. Her family thought she's
having a nervous breakdown, and they like kind of blow

(54:35):
her off and give her antipsychotics and then anti seizure
meds when she starts having seizures, so along the same lines,
and she is eventually finally diagnosed with anti m NMDA
receptor encephalitis, which is caused when the body's immune system
goes haywire and attacks of protein in the brain that
helps neurons communicate.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Fuck yeah, which sounds a lot like Alzheimer's.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Yes, they're linking it to the that too, And it
was like there was one doctor who was able to
finally figure it out. And the way he figured it
out is when he had her draw a clock and
she drew the circle and wrote all of the numbers
tightly on the right hand side, so the brain wasn't computing,
it wasn't even seeing in the other side, and she

(55:18):
thought it was normal, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Yes, so, because I feel like I've seen that picture, right, Yeah,
so she was.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
So it's the same receptor that's blocked by PCP or ketamine,
and both drugs can make a normal person act like
someone with schizophrenia, so, which I didn't know. That sounds terrifying.
Why would you take those drugs.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
The seventies, I think most people accidentally smoked PCP. Yeah,
there was a lot of like because that's angel dust, right, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
We're accidentally on purpose because the drug wars were fucking
racist and horrible.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
Uh, look it up, look up nero.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Whether dare you look it up?

Speaker 1 (55:57):
No, I didn't mean it like that. I'm like you better. Yeah,
I'm right. No, I didn't mean like, I don't know
you look it up. I don't care not, I want
like you know what I mean. I just want to
make clear. Yes, the diseases the disease Stephen make me
sound like I can breathe, we can do this. The
disease typically strikes young women, and symptoms worsen and include agitation, paranoia, delusions,

(56:22):
hallucinations and seizures, and psychosis.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Fuck. Yeah, I'm not literally thinking back in the nineties
of like did I have paranoia? Did I have was
I hallucinating?

Speaker 1 (56:32):
But I did you think? Do you remember? Because like
schizophrenia hits younger women, it seems like really that's really
the main demographic. Yeah, and so did you ever be like, shit, man,
if I'm going to hit it, this is going to
be like a twenty four I was like, get out
of this. Yes, without schizophrenia, Well yes, because the uh so,
the brain grows like a certain way every seven years,
a certain amount every seven years.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
That's like this. So that's why they say it's when
you're you know, twenty one whatever. It goes in sevens
of when they think when they most commonly diagnose it,
So they say, and when I was at the end,
it was I was twenty eight and it was my
fourth one or whatever.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
A few Yeah, your fourth seizure.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
I was like the cycle or whatever where I was
when I read that thing about the brain growing. And
that's why sometimes people have seizures, and sometimes they have
them and never have them again.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
I had one at fourteen, No, twelve, Yeah, I had
one at twelve.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Your brain is little.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
My brother had one too, Yeah, and pretty commers that
because it's just complicated. Well, yeah, then it makes sense
why a young woman comes in with fucking symptoms that
look like schizophrenia, who's like twenty three or four, And
of course it's just an obvious diagnosis. But then when
the brain the drugs don't work, you know that's a
sign it's not. But you know, they didn't doctors a

(57:50):
lot didn't want to look into that more and would
just send you to someone else.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
And well, it's like when they're supposed to be the
final word, and if they don't know what to do,
then what do you do.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
She's spent, she said, She's spent one hundred thousand, No, no, no,
she said a million dollars on different drugs to try
to tackle this, Jesus, and none of it worked. And
then finally this guy's like, draw a clock and she's
like what and draws it and it didn't cost anything
to draw the clock and for him to be like
you have this?

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (58:18):
Okay, So anyways, that's not this isn't about her. Uh So,
it's now speculated that anti NMDA receptor and cephalitis could
be behind historical descriptions of what was believed to be
demonic possession, including in The Exorcist when she walks on
her walk. How do you explain that?

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Is she backwards crab walks?

Speaker 1 (58:38):
Yes, that's like your bones get stiff, your body like
turns into these crazy folds and stuff like that, and
that's one of the fucking things that happened.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Really, Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Yeah, So that exact symptom of demonic possession is actually
a symptom of this. Wow. So appropriate diagnosis and treatment
more than eighty percent of patients have a good outcome.
And then I wrote the worst line I've ever written
to end a story because I didn't allow how else
to do it? Susan Callahan got better, but unfortunately Anna

(59:09):
Lisee Michelle didn't have the chance.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
I know.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
I mean, listen, I think they're making a movie out
of it. Brain on Fire really fucking interesting.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
I would love to see that or rehab It, you
can have it. I do want to read that. Uh
I saw I think Requiem is that the one that's
in Germany. That movie is so upsetting. I saw the
first I would say two thirds of it, and then
when she started having seizures, when it started getting into
that thing, I was like, oh, I don't want to
watch a girl have seizure.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
It looks so horrifying when she has a seizure. Yeah,
I mean.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
It's just well, it is really. I mean you picture
back when demonic possession was conceived and when it was
people who like, if you had a brain disorder in
you know, medieval times or the Dark Ages, you were
just fucked because there was no treatment. There was nothing
to be done.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
In the Dark Ages and the fucking nineties at Belheu Hospital,
like a seizure you were you know, if they couldn't
control it right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Well, they can control it, they just don't know why
you're having it unless they go in and they go
have brain surgery and they look to find if there's
scars on your brain, but like, if there's no, if
you don't have like, oh, I've gotten a car accent
and this is what's happening. If you don't have a
story that they can put a storyline to, then they're
just like, we don't know. And that's in the beginning
of my seizure disorder journey. In the beginning, they were

(01:00:30):
just like, Oh, this is just alcohol withdrawal. This is
what happens to alcoholics. I, of course, then with absolutely
no shame whatsoever, was like, but I've never stopped drinking,
so how could i have withdrawal, no withdrawal situation happening?
But you know, and then it turned out that that
wasn't what it was because I still have seizures to
this day. I knew things were happening, and I had injuries,

(01:00:52):
and I'd weird you know, I'd weird eye because of
the aura of my seizure is my eyes flick around.
And so when that first started, I would driving and
it felt to me like I was looking at the
other cars coming like I have a very specifical memory
of driving down fountain and just check. I felt like
I was checking the other cars, and so I was like, oh,
am I crazy now that I'm like OCD checking cars.

(01:01:12):
But it turned out it was my eyes just going
eh uh, because that's the aura.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
And then you seem paranoid a little because you can't
stop looking at the cars.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
I mean, I didn't think that, okay, but you could
put that together if you were a doctor trying to
figure out what the hell was going on. All of
that stuff fits totally. But the idea that they just
keep going back to the church or to Catholicism to
fix it is just like, oh, it's heartbreaking. Yeah, I know,
broken knee caps is not cool.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
Oh that's such a specific thing of like, okay, this
is the thing you can point to of excessive what
she went through, that specific thing of her knees being
broken from fucking.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
Yeah, someone should have said stop way fucking earlier than
when she weighed sixty six pounds. It's insanity. It doesn't
make sense.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
And the whole time she was on board with it.
So they were probably like, because they're priests, these people
haven't know she was because she was.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
No, I'm saying because priests are doing it to her.
She's a devout Catholic.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Those they drink the blood of Christ.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
They know better than doctors. Their like final word. It
makes me think too of did you watch Taboo, the
Tom Hardy series on FX.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Oh wait, we watched a couple episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
There was just one near the end his sister who's married,
and she's just like a rebel. She's just like a
fuck you rebel for lots of different reasons. Her husband
finally decides that she's possessed by the devil and has
someone come to exercise the demons inside her, and she
basically just get gets molested by this priest. And it's

(01:02:41):
that thing too of women in society over the years,
where it's like when you did have these people and
it's not you know, it's not the exact same thing
every time, obviously, but that it's such a good example
of like women having no you know, own rights or
ownership over their own fucking bodies. So then it was like,
if you're Sassin back and saying fuck and all this stuff,

(01:03:02):
then you're possessed by the devil. And then two men
come in and get to just do what they want
to quote unquote get rid of the devil inside you,
and you are just tied down and you know you
have to take it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Well, it's the same thing as far as in like
the fifties and sixties and seventies, where it's like my
wife is being rebellious and or depressed and it's like
we'll give her a fucking pill lobotomy. Oh shit, yeah,
the lovotomy situation. Oh man, I'm like, she doesn't want
to be a fucking housewife anymore. She's going crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
Okay, we're back. Do you have any updates on this case?

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
No updates on this case. But the book I mentioned,
Brain on Fire by Susannah Kahalan, which I still highly
recommend in relation to this case, was turned into a
film by the same name for Netflix, and Chloe Grace
Moretz was the woman who played the author who wrote
about this incredible experience she had that just I think

(01:04:04):
about it all the time when you hear about extracisms
and how freaking just dark it is.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
Wild. Yeah, yeah, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
Let's keep going with the bad yes, and get into
Karen's story about Jack Hunterwager, the Vienna Strangler.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Okay, we're going back to We're going back to the
area that you were just in from mine. What are
the odds? So we were talking to somebody yesterday who said,
do you guys take requests? And we were kind of like,
but then he said, do you know about this guy?
And the second he started talking, I knew who he

(01:04:49):
was talking about, and I got that thing that I
always get when people talk to me about cases, where
if I know I just want to interrupt them immediately
and be like, it's this, this, this, and this.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
But well, that's what I did, and you we're quiet,
so you're probably like writing it down.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
I was just mentally noting. But that's what I wanted
to do, was just be like and I think at
some point I did say something. But it is so
hilariously frustrating when it's somebody's going like, have you ever
heard of this thing? And then they tell you the
whole story and you can't. You can't immediately just be
like yes or correct them. So I knew if I
had such strong feelings, I should tell that story.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
So awesome. I love it. That's like such a quick turnaround.
I know I heard about it yesterday. Yeah, and look
at me now.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
So this is the story of Jack Unterwigger, the Vienna Strangler,
and it's so crazy. This should be much more well
known and talked about. It's so crazy. Okay, So essentially
just to give you a little background on Vienna, Austria,
which I can't tell you how many times I got

(01:05:51):
confused while I was writing this, forgetting that Vienna is
the city within Austria and not Austria as a city itself.
So much to learn, so much, so many ways to grow.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
I feel like we're learning so much this episode. I
mean growing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
It's kind of like being in school. It's school time,
it's school time of day.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
We're dotting our Everything's all right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
So in two thousand and five, there was a study
of one hundred and twenty world cities and Vienna ranked
a tied with Vancouver and San Francisco as the world's
most livable city, and then in twenty eleven and twenty
fifteen it was ranked second behind Melbourne, Australia, and it

(01:06:39):
is It is classified by the United Nations Human Settlements
Program as the most prosperous city in the world. Wow,
twenty twelve, twenty thirteen.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
Let's move there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
So it's fancy pansy. They don't they barely have that
meant much crime? They have very little murder, very little.
So on New Year's Eve nineteen ninety, a woman's body
is found by hikers in the forest in western Austria.
Her name was Heidi Hammern. She was a thirty one
year old sex worker. She was nude, face down, posed

(01:07:13):
and had been strangled with her own stockings that were
tied in a complex slip knot.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
Oh never wears. I'm never wearing stockings because that's all
they're used for, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
In these stories? Absolutely? Yeah. So five lays days later,
in the city of Grouts, hikers find the body of
Brunhilda Masa in a forest. She's partially buried. She's been
posed in the same manner as Heidi was. She was
strangled with her own bra that was tied in a
complex slipknot.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
I don't wear bras. I'm just taking off all my
clothes for this episode.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
There's all these solutions, solutions, no bras. Okay. So the
police can't find any usable evidence on either of the bodies,
except that Heidi had a bunch of red fibers all
over her that didn't match anything that she was wearing.
They took those fibers put in a bag for later.
But it was so uncommon that anything like this would

(01:08:11):
happening would be happening, that these murders hit the papers
and everybody in Austria is freaking out. So they have
a crime reporter named Jack Unterweger who takes to the
streets to talk to police and sex workers about these
crimes for Austrian National Radio. Like it is, I was

(01:08:35):
trying to say it fast, so you've noticed that, but
he refused nothing on the streets. He interviews sex workers
about the fear that they're feeling, and he goes to
the police and talks to the investigators about whether or
not they have any idea of who they're looking for,
and the police tell him they have no idea.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
What a great ruse.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Meanwhile, in Los Angeles, California, that's where we live, a
thirty five year old sex worker named Shannon Exley is
found underneath an eighteen wheeler in Boyle Heights. She's posed,
she's naked. She's been strangled with her own bra that's
been tied with a complex slip knot.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
Boyle Heights is closed to us.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
Uh huh, very close.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Then so the police when they find they see this,
there's no clues, there's nothing. So, uh, they look into
any other unsolved murders with the same mo and they
find two others. Uh. Both Irene Rodriguez who was found
in Boyle Heights as well and a woman named Peggy
Booth who is found in Malibu, Caanan, had both been
strangled to death with their own clothing left out in

(01:09:41):
the open. They were all sex workers. They had all
three been assaulted with tree branches. So immediately, yeah, immediately,
the LA detectives know that they've got a serial killer.
That's three murders in fifteen days. So they're like, we
have a fucking cereal in the emergency. But then nothing
else happens in the case goes cold. Now let's go

(01:10:03):
back to Vienna. Uh, there's two more sex workers' bodies
that have been found, Karen Arra Glue and Sabine Motesi.
They were both also found in the forest, both strangled
with their own clothing that was tied in slip knots.
So these every time it happens, it hits the paper
and people freaking out. The pressure and the panic is

(01:10:25):
building because this is just something that does not happen there.
Uh So, finally, a retired detective named August Schenner from
Salzburg is reading about these murders and he contacts the
Austrian police, the Viennese police, I should say, and uh
he tells them that Jack Unterweger, the crime reporter and

(01:10:47):
the famous, the famous crime reporter, and he's a well
known guy around Austria that he he reminds the police
that Unterweger was is famous because he was conveyd of
murder in nineteen seventy four. He August Schenner tells police,

(01:11:08):
it's the same momo as the nineteen seventy four murder
of these women that are being killed now. Except for
the seventy four murder. He knew the woman personally, she
was not a sex worker.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
But is he had of prison.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
But it's the same. Well, I'm going to tell you
it's the same mo same not same everything. And Schenner says,
I know you don't have any you're saying you don't
have any suspects right now, you should at least take
a look at his movements and see where he was
all these different times in these different locations where these
women's bodies were found totally, so the police start to

(01:11:44):
look into Underwagger and and that trial. So basically he
as I said, he was tried and convicted in nineteen
seventy fourth for the murder of this Let's see, her
name was Margaret Schaeffer. He was he went to his
the girl he was dating at the time. He went
to her hometown to so she could visit her family

(01:12:08):
in Germany, and they see as they drive into town,
they see her school friend, Margaret Schaeffer, walking along the street.
So at that moment, Jack Unterweger decides that they're going
to rob her and her parents. So he ends up
taking her out to the forest, murdering, attacking her, raping her,

(01:12:31):
murdering her, strangling her with her un clothes, and he
and uh, his girlfriend spills the beans on the whole murder,
and he ends up going to jail. So while he's
in jail, he goes into jail and he can't read
or write. He's had a horrible childhood his mother. He
alleges his mother was a prostitute or a sex worker. Sorry,

(01:12:54):
the word prostitute is used a lot in this case,
so uh but uh. He says that she was a prostitute.
She gave him up to his alcoholic, horrible grandfather when
he was little and she took off. He never knew
his father. They think his father was an American soldier,
and he has to live as a child, live with

(01:13:17):
this alcoholic grandfather in a cabin in the woods, a
one room cabin where he is constantly bringing girlfriends and
sex workers back to the cabin to have sex while
he's in the room. That's his childhood when he gets older.
So then finally the state takes him out of that situation.
He goes from foster Home to Foster home, then he

(01:13:42):
goes to juvie for a little while. He finally gets out,
and between nineteen sixty six and nineteen seventy nine, he's
convicted sixteen times of sexual assaults and he spends most
of that period of time, it was like nine years
in jail. So when he finally gets out of jail,

(01:14:04):
that's when he finds the girlfriend, starts traveling all over
and that's when he ends up killing Margaret Schaeffer. So
he goes to jail illiterate, but he while there teaches himself.
He's he's convicted and given a life sentence, and in
that sorry in that trial, he's declared insane by a

(01:14:26):
psychologist who describes him as being sexually a sexually sadistic
psychopath with narcissistic and histrionic tendencies, prone to fits of
rage and anger. And that psychologist said he's an incorrigible perpetrator.
So he goes to jail. And when he's in jail,
I've said this now three times, he can't read or write.

(01:14:46):
So he teaches himself to read and write in jail,
and he starts writing plays, he starts writing poems, and
he starts writing children's stories. And at the same time,
there was this movement in Austria for prison form and
one of the like the approach of their prison reform
was called resocialization. So it's the idea that if somebody

(01:15:09):
is in jail, they understand what they've done, that they've
done wrong, that they should have a chance to make
good on that, and and.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
So that's what jail is. Prison is for right, So
don't get to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:22):
So they're basically it's this kind of it's very the
intell you know, the intellectuals of the country were kind
of like, this is what needs to happen. We need
to give people a chance, and and through the arts
and through self expression they can basically reform themselves. And
so but Jack, they don't.

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
But that doesn't matter because they still committed this crime.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Stress. Sorry, go on, no, no, no, you're you're exactly
right off. But it's that old I think it's back
before they understood serial killers. They understood these these personalities
and and what that actually means, how somebody can be
actually totally unrepentant and have no conscience, so they don't
of course they're not sitting there going I shouldn't have

(01:16:09):
done that. I promise I'm not going to do it again,
Like that's not happened.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
I think that mindset that that people had back then,
where it's like anyone could commit these crimes not thinking that. No,
it's this you know, those people who were saying that
don't understand the urge to kill or to sexually assault
someone because you know, they don't have that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
So they're they're grouping all criminals together, yeah, or they're
griving all humans together and mental you know, capacities and
fucking see psychopaths. So there's Uh, there's a lot of
people who theorize that when he knew that this was
the reform, because the reform started before he went to jail,
before any of that happen, so he knew that was

(01:16:50):
something they were looking towards. So he gets into jail
and is basically like, this is the this is the
prisoner I'm going to be, and so instead of being
here for a life sentence, I'm going to get myself
out by playing straight into the need for this program
and people's need for this program to be real and
to work. So while he's in jail, he writes an
autobiography called Purgatory. I can't say the German version of

(01:17:14):
that word because it's also crazy, And that autobiography becomes
a hit, and a director even makes a movie of it.
It's basically his life story, and there's this ground swell
of support for him and his art and his expression
and the proof that he can be resocialized and that
this can work. In nineteen eighty five, they start up

(01:17:38):
the certain group of people start up a demand for
his early release. So it's all actually, one could say,
if that was the plan, it's going perfectly for him,
and he basically, in May of nineteen ninety, he gets
released from prison after serving fifteen years of a life sentence.
Uh huh. Immediately he gets released in prison and he

(01:18:02):
becomes a fixture on television talk shows. He poses as
the model of prison prison rehabilitation. He gets invited to
high society cocktail parties. His autobiography is taught in schools.
His stories for children are performed on the radio.

Speaker 1 (01:18:19):
What in the fuck? Uh huh. The woman who got
killed by him is like, hey, I would be still
alive if this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
Yes, exactly, So he he actually was there. There's clips
of him on I think it was called Cafe two
now I can't remember what the name of the show is.
But it's literally a circle of men in like turtlenecks
and it's like, you know, sit jacket and turtleneck, the
very clearly like the intelligencia, and they're just talking about

(01:18:48):
prison reform. And he's there in an all white silk suit.
He looks like Steve Martin doing a character in a movie.
And he's there to give his first hand account of
the reality of prison reform to school them. Yeah, to
tell them how it really is. And this made this
is what everybody wanted, and he was doing it, and

(01:19:09):
it was all like, this is how society should truly be.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
Diabolical man.

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
He also he made a lot of money because of
all of these successes. He wore designer clothes, the white
silk suit, which I enjoyed. He's wearing it in a
lot of clips. He also drove a Ford Mustang with
the license plate jack one, which I don't know why.
I think that's so hilarious is the number one.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
I think it's like he fucking won.

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
Well, you're exactly right, because he did. He gets He
gets an eighteen year old girlfriend. So in September of
the same year, he's released in May. In September of
that year, some people walking along the Vitava River near
Prague find the body of Blanca Bakhova. She's not a
sex worker, she was just nearby meeting friends for a drink.

(01:20:00):
And this is four months after he has been released
from prison and is living this life. So on the
advice of the man from Salzburg, sorry turn the page.
On the advice of our August Schenner, right, the police
get a search warrant and an arrest warrant. They start

(01:20:22):
looking at jack hunger. Now I've lost every jack hunger
watchers movements. And they see that he coincidentally has been
in all of the towns where these women have been
murdered when they disappear. So they're starting to track it
and they're like, oh, this guy is exactly right, Like

(01:20:43):
this is serious. So they get a warrant to search
his home and his an arrest warrant, but when they
get to his house, he's not there. So they start
looking through his house. They find evidence that he had
gone to Prague at the same time as Bokhova's death
to do research on an article about prostitution, and he
was placed at a cafe five hundred meters away from

(01:21:05):
where she was last seen the night she disappeared. They
also find a red scarf and they bag that shit up.
So one detective that's looking around his house sees that
he has keepsakes from a recent trip to La and
so they're like, what was he doing in La? So
they call the LAPD and they ask if they have
any unsolved strangling sex worker homicides and LAPD's like, we

(01:21:29):
got fucking three.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
Fuck so but here's this sorry ninety ish, what's that?
What ears this ninety one.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
Okay, So it turns out that Jack had been hired
by an Austrian magazine to write an article on prostitution
in America. So he went to la and he called
up the LAPD. They found in his apartment, They found
a visitors pass for the LAPD headquarters, and they found
he had gone on a ride along with some officers

(01:21:57):
downtown and on that ride along, he asked them where
the sex worker, where the prostitutes work and are and
they drove him by the spot where they all stood around,
so they basically pointed out his targets.

Speaker 1 (01:22:11):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
And that article was published in an Austrian magazine in
December of nineteen ninety one. So he actually really was
a calumnist, but he was reporting on the murders he
was doing.

Speaker 1 (01:22:24):
Can we please get an original copy of.

Speaker 2 (01:22:27):
That article of you want it in German?

Speaker 1 (01:22:30):
Oh? No, I guess not.

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):
Yes, I thought that's what he meant, like, can we
just see it?

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
Yeah, it was you know what, Yes, I'm gonna go.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
Okay, yes, we'll go all the way there.

Speaker 1 (01:22:39):
I'm going there.

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
He also stayed at the Cecil Hotel. That's where he
was staying the whole time.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
I just gear the shit out of me because I oh,
my god, The Cecil, Yeah, a good friend, The Cecil.

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
The Cecil Hotel where everything bad happens, where islam Elisa
Lamb was found dead in the water tank, but also
Richard Ramirez stayed there while he was doing a little
kill in Los Angeles. It's so hilariously terrible, but it
is right down there in the worst of, yes, the
worst things that are happening in Los Angeles. The Cecil

(01:23:11):
Hotel is like centrally located.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
I love trying to rebrand themselves by calling themselves like
stay on Maine, Stay on Maine. Yeah, no, honey.

Speaker 2 (01:23:19):
But the funniest thing is that sign is still up
that says Hotel Cecil. It reads Hotel Cecil down like that,
and the like vintage painting on the side that says
Cecil Hotel or whatever. They can't I think they can't change.
I mean that's my guess because there. We just drove
by there the other night and we looked at it
and that's all still up.

Speaker 1 (01:23:38):
Yes or no. We do a special episode from a
room in the Cecil Hotel. Lisa Lamb, Stayton or Richard
Emer Staateen or the Sky State. Yes, Stephen, can you
write that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
Down Stephen ideas and then we write in the dark
German articles, listen for Austrian magazines, send them a we
just do Google Translate and send him over.

Speaker 1 (01:24:02):
Yeah, but I want it in my hand like paper. Okay,
good right, we know what you want to Let's move on. Well,
so okay, so he so they put all of it together,
and they put all of it. It's circumstantial evidence, but
they're putting all of it together. And there's that there's
that guy that you see in every special that was
in the I I watched.

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
Oh shit, I've done it again. I didn't quote this
at the top, but I got all of this from
the Biography Channel. But this is different. It's all. It's all.

Speaker 1 (01:24:33):
They've got information from a place, and then you put it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:35):
In several places your story me too. I mean, you're
gonna fucking make it up. You know, this is all
from the internet. The Biography Channel. Uh is the first
special I watched on this and it's that thing in
it reminded me when it when the title comes up,
it starts Biography Channel. So you're just watching and then
it's Jack Unterweger, and I remembered normally watching like when

(01:25:00):
and the biography channel specials would come up. I'd be
like sitting there and then it would be like Riba
Macintel or maybe like that, I don't want to watch this.
But then it's like if one of those came up
in real time, naturally, it was the most exciting thing
in the world. Yes, when it was before specialized true
crime television was really as popular as it is now.

Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
And before DVR, so you kind of didn't know what
was going to be on. Yes, just kind of like
catch it, catch you had to be there listen.

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
So he he goes on to Whego, goes on the
Lamb with his eighteen year old girlfriend. They end up
in Miami.

Speaker 1 (01:25:32):
No, I'm kidding Miami.

Speaker 2 (01:25:33):
Uh to do a show there now? And he also
he starts calling into the radio station that he used
to work for, explaining to them that he's innocent. He's
being framed by the cops. You know, he's just the
most you know, he looks bad because of that old murder,
but blah blah blah. He's like calling in and trying
to make a case for himself. And there actually are

(01:25:57):
people that are on his side because there's because they've
bought into the celebrity of him so hard that like
they can't turn around now.

Speaker 1 (01:26:04):
Sure they can't admit that, loopsie. Yeah, and because then
you're also kind of responsible for those women getting murdered
in a like weird roundabout way.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
Well, yeah, there's definitely guilt. Yeah, there's definitely guilt. You are,
but you would think you are, you would, yeah, you'd
have you'd feel fucking terrible for that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:21):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):
So this guy from the FBI helps Vienna develop what
they call a crime signature, and his crime signature is
murdering strangulation with ligature made of clothing tied with complex
slip knots, and so they, uh, they go to trial.

(01:26:44):
Oh when he gets arrested, he gets put in jail,
he slits his wrists, and there's even more support for
him and more empathy for him. So he finally goes
to trial ding dongs, and uh it's two months later
after his arrest and his defense says, why would I
kill women? I have a very healthy sex life. I've
slept with over one hundred and fifty women, which is

(01:27:06):
exactly the number that Alex Jones said when he was
talking about how many women he slept with really, which
I think is kind of funny. One hundred and fifty
is like just ridiculous. Enough, Yeah, and as if it
has any one has anything to do with you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
Totally.

Speaker 2 (01:27:22):
I love women. Why would I kill women?

Speaker 1 (01:27:23):
Right? We know I don't need to have sex, yes, right,
I don't need to sexually assault one women they give
it to me. He's like, oh, yeah, that's all it
is about, is yeah, sexual gratification?

Speaker 3 (01:27:33):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:27:33):
No, no, you fucking lunatic. So up until they say
up until kind of like this turning point, he did
have those supporters weren't relenting until the guy from the
FBI came and pointed out the crime signature. And they
had all these pieces of clothing from all the murders,
and he just held them up one after the other

(01:27:54):
and was like complex slipknot complex slipnot on every single one.
And that's when the room turned and it all went
different for him. He was convicted of nine of eleven
murders of sex workers in La La Prague, and Vienna,

(01:28:16):
and in June of nineteen ninety four, he was sentenced
to life without the possibility of parole. And that night
he committed suicide in jail. And the interesting thing is
that he hung himself with shoelaces and the band, the
rope band from his sweatpants and he used a complex
slipknot to tie tuck. Uh huh oh.

Speaker 1 (01:28:38):
I was holding my breath for that one. Yeah, oh
my god.

Speaker 2 (01:28:41):
Yes. They also matched the red fibers on highdi right,
matched the scarf that they got out of his apartment.
Like everything was was adding up, but it's all circumstantial, circumstantial, circumstantial.
So when they's that's why LA didn't try to prosecute
it is because there was nothing. They were like, you've
got ms or eight murders over there. We're not going

(01:29:03):
to be able to get him because everything over here
is circumstantial and not there's nothing solid. It's all just
like basically, these three horrible murders that match exactly while
he was there and visiting as I am.

Speaker 1 (01:29:16):
Yeah, fuck man, how have I never fucking heard of him?

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
It's such a fascinating case. There's way more to read,
but like the idea that while he was murdering sex
workers and then writing columns about the murderer and the
murders and asking people how they felt, and.

Speaker 1 (01:29:33):
He was asking everything about like acknowledging and writing about
the murder.

Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
Yes, yeah, he was basically and foe investigating his own crime.
It's amazing and oh that was the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:29:45):
That's stupid.

Speaker 2 (01:29:46):
I was trying to find this. But one of the
experts talking about him said, the thing about the psychopaths,
the kind of psychopath that he is, is you stop
focusing on what they do, and they make you focus
on them. And that's how that like it's cult of personality.
So when he was in jail, the fact that he

(01:30:10):
had strangled a young woman faded away and it all
became about me and my life and how hard it's
been for me. And read my autobiography and this is
so sad.

Speaker 1 (01:30:19):
He never said like I made a mistake and killed
the no, no, no thing. It was like, don't even
point that out.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
No, it was all about him and then and he
was he was smart enough and manipulate enough, manipulative enough
to play the part of the person they were looking for,
you know, to really kind of like be the face
of and spearhead this resocialization plan. He was just like,
I'm going to be that guy.

Speaker 1 (01:30:44):
Do you think that when you know, when when people
get convicted of murder and then they get to read
a letter to the judge or to the family and
they just talk about themselves. That's the same kind of
thing instead of like apologizing to the family, yeah, or
saying I made a mistake or whatever. Yes, and that's
like I had a hard childhood I was. That's the
same thing. Wy, I've always pissed me off whenever I

(01:31:06):
hear those.

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
No, Yeah, that's the because it's the narcissist it's is
it some you know, a bunch of those traits go
across the board and like if you're this, you're this,
you're this. But it's like narcissism for sure. But then
also the psychopaths, where it's just like it's their world
and everyone is just an ant in that world and
they get to do what they want and everything is

(01:31:29):
too power, everything is too you know what I mean,
Like it's to feed their ego.

Speaker 1 (01:31:34):
And things are done to them and like they have
unfair things are unfair to them.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
Yeah, and if they're like I don't even want to talk.
Like when he was finally arrested, they tried to get
him to talk about the nineteen seventy four murder, and
he was like, I have no memory. I don't know
what you're talking about, and just like it says if
in his mind, since he doesn't acknowledge it, it didn't happen.

Speaker 1 (01:31:54):
Wow. I always wish there's a way to get them
to like fucking feel bad about it, you know. Yeah,
But that's the h there's no such things. They don't
have a conscience that they need they can be reabilitated,
which they can't.

Speaker 2 (01:32:07):
It's you thinking, they're like you, yes, it's that. And
actually that's part of the fascination of all of this
shit is there's these people that are built totally differently.

Speaker 1 (01:32:17):
Or because of their circumstances of how they were raised,
which is like alcoholics, grandfather who did these things. It's like,
there's no way your brain can then go to where
you and I are and Steven and hopefully and.

Speaker 2 (01:32:33):
But also I think you have to have that because
lots of people get beaten up by horrible grandfathers and
all that stuff you have. Then it's that extra piece
sure being a sociopath or being a psychopath where it
turns because this guy was just like on fire with
the lord since fucking day one where he's like sixteen
assaults out of you know, when he's like in his

(01:32:54):
teens and early twenties, he had huge problems from jump
and ever stopped doing it. Yeah, and then just tricked
everybody in this insane way because you know, he was
getting off on the idea of like, I'm gonna go
interview the head of this investigation and ask them if
they have any idea who's doing this and the answer
is no, and he gets together.

Speaker 1 (01:33:15):
They were like, none of them were like, that's weird
that he's putting himself, you know, because that's one of
the things is that they put the murderers put themselves
in the middle of the investigation or just a little
too interested in it. Yeah, I guess they didn't know
that then.

Speaker 2 (01:33:28):
They didn't know it. It's so funny too, because it's
not that long ago. It's the nice but it's still
police procedurally, it's long ago.

Speaker 1 (01:33:36):
Well, that just explains to me a thing that I
haven't really ever understood, which is why Anne Rule never
suspected or even took a while after Ted Bundy was
arrested to be like, yeah, it was him, So she
was under that same fucking spell.

Speaker 2 (01:33:52):
Yes, Okay, it's like they never understood.

Speaker 1 (01:33:55):
It was like, how did you fucking not know?

Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
Because you know, haven't you ever met a person like that?
Like I've definitely I met one person in particular where
the charisma is such they make you think that they
think you're the only person in the world, and that
most people never get that unless you're like exceedingly beautiful
or special in some way.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
It's this actual specific relationship you're having that's because of
the two of you, right, But there makes me feel
that way, and I don't want to make.

Speaker 2 (01:34:23):
It well, but that's because that's that's it's you make
him feel that way too, right, But when you meet
those people like when it it In my opinion, I
think a lot of love at first sight is like
the first time you made a sociopath because they know
how do they know how to manipulate you? And they
have their reasons for it, even if it doesn't make

(01:34:45):
sense to you or in your mind it's like why
would you do that? Yeah, we had this magical thing, and.

Speaker 1 (01:34:49):
It's like trying to get what are you getting out
of this? Nothing?

Speaker 2 (01:34:52):
Well, having young women be in love with you everywhere
you go you know, as part of it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:57):
Yeah, because we don't need that, so we don't understand
why other people would need that too.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
Write or if you need it, you can then go yeah,
but that would be mean to do to a person
who I didn't love back, like you can bring an actual,
you know, conscience into it.

Speaker 1 (01:35:12):
I saw a relationship like that of two people I know,
and it was like everyone was like, how the fuck
do you not see this person doesn't think like you? Yeah,
And it's like so surprising to see that from a
smart person not understanding these like really obvious to everyone else.

Speaker 2 (01:35:31):
Don't you think smart people are almost more susceptible because
it's like I never think I'm going to fall for anything.

Speaker 1 (01:35:36):
Yeah, And they're almost more like they can intellectualize away
these things because they're not just ding dongs going along
with it. They're like, well, I'm really smart, so I
would clearly know this well.

Speaker 2 (01:35:51):
And also I think that brain based people ignore their
gut more.

Speaker 1 (01:35:55):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:56):
So it's like I've met plenty of people who aren't,
say BookSmart, which I also didn't mean to just say
I'm so smart because I'm true. I've proven here time
and again that I'm not listen.

Speaker 1 (01:36:04):
If this is your first episode, you know that we
don't even have to say that.

Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
Please know this. But there are people who don't get
bogged down in thinking and just go, oh, give goodbye.
This feels awful for whatever reason, Whereas if you're a
big thinker and a big analyzer, then it's like, you know,
this never happens, and this is I'm I'm magically being
chosen by this amazing, magical person who is so charismatic

(01:36:30):
and so you know what I mean, like does a
thing that you're like, what, this doesn't happen? This is uncommon.

Speaker 1 (01:36:37):
Well, I want to say it's also because of self esteem,
but or no, no, I was going to say, it's also
because you and I have been through a lot of
experiences where that has happened to us, and we have,
you know, since we were very young and went through
some shit. But it's also so we're like skeptical and
thinking that way. But also when that happened to me
when I was younger, I had really low self esteem. Yes,
so you know, it's not just that I didn't know,

(01:36:57):
it's that that they were like that or what people
were like. It's that I when someone treats you that.
It's almost like they find that people with low self esteem,
and yeah, they can see you at a bar that
you are that person. In the moment they say a
word to you, they can tell if you are or not.

Speaker 2 (01:37:12):
That's right, That's exactly right, because you know, it's funny
the person I'm thinking of that I had this experience
with where I was like the things I was thinking
that it was, and the reality of what it was.
I learned terribly about a year later when I watched
him do the exact same thing to my friend who
does not have low self esteem. When I introduced them,
I was standing there and I watched the look. It

(01:37:34):
was like watching a look come over. So it's like
watching a predator like see you know, like.

Speaker 1 (01:37:41):
Like like a thing changed colors to fit the environment.

Speaker 2 (01:37:44):
And when I saw the look on his face and
my heart just dropped of like, oh no, that's it
wasn't love at first sight. That's the thing he does
to everybody. My friend was just like, hey, what's like,
nice to meet you and moved on, didn't give a shit,
and I was just like, oh man, this is all
so awful.

Speaker 1 (01:38:01):
Yeah, yeah, but I don't think it can happen to
us again, or if it does, we'll be more aware
of it. And you know, listen, they're our fucking friends.

Speaker 2 (01:38:09):
It'll never happen again because I'm an emotional lighthouse on
the very tip of Maine, and I'll be there forever. Goodbye.

Speaker 1 (01:38:20):
Well, at least you're gonna have lighthouse cats.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
That's fun.

Speaker 1 (01:38:23):
It's really the only like positive I can think of that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:26):
At least you always get free clamm chowder at a lighthouse.

Speaker 1 (01:38:28):
Oh my god, with the oyster crackers on top of him.

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):
The big sweater and I'll play the cello.

Speaker 1 (01:38:32):
Oh my gosh, this is gonna be great for me.
Me me go live with Karen in her lighthouse.

Speaker 2 (01:38:37):
I should get Mimi. I'm her number one fan, all right. Anyway,
that's that's the story.

Speaker 1 (01:38:44):
That's how it is, and we're sticking to on it.
Tease and ie, okay, we're back, Karen.

Speaker 2 (01:38:54):
Any updates, No updates. This is an old case. It's
been around for a long time. It was fee on
The Peacock Show, The World's Most Notorious Killers, and they
called Underwagger the first Transatlantic serial killer. Wow, but you
know that feels to me like they're just trying to
milk it. Yeah, you know headline yeah stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:39:15):
All right, well, speaking of headlines, let's get back to
twenty seventeen and listen to our good things of the week. Hey,
what happened this week that you're happy or like? Any
you know? What do you like?

Speaker 2 (01:39:27):
Oh? You know what, I'll tell you I like and
it is it is another present. But because we do
get tons of presents, we do. Thank you for all
your presents.

Speaker 1 (01:39:39):
We love them, we do. We talk about them a lot.
And did you see the thing that someone gave us.
It's this thing. Ye. We really fucking lose our minds,
we really do it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:47):
So we did get a present last week and it
was from another person that I know from Twitter, Andrew,
and he tried to send this thing twice.

Speaker 1 (01:39:55):
I'm sorry, I don't pick up my po box. And
I think they fucking hate me there.

Speaker 2 (01:39:58):
Too, because you get so much stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:40:00):
Now, yes, they fucking hate me.

Speaker 2 (01:40:02):
Lots of presents. Well he sent us he's a woodworker,
and we got oh yeah, these gorgeous pens in hand
carved pen holders, pen pass boxes, yeah, whatever they were.
And then he carved Stephen a mustache for his I
mean a comb for his mustache.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
Giant wooden comb for his mustache. Steven, have you been
using it? I mean every day my mustache. I feel
like it sounds look good. It's like it looks good.
I got to, you know, keep it, keep it tight.

Speaker 2 (01:40:34):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:40:35):
It's part of your persona now high and tight.

Speaker 2 (01:40:37):
So Andrew, it's Andrew Hess that I know from Twitter,
and he's a great woodworker, And thank you so much
for sending those and we finally got them and we
were blown away, blown away by that.

Speaker 1 (01:40:48):
It was so thoughtful. Yeah. I was always trying to
think of things that make me happier, things that I loved,
and so I just put up this hummingbird feeder right outside,
and like, I love hummingbirds. And there's been like fucking
it's been like a swarm of hummingbirds. And every time
I see when I yell, even if I'm alone, have abord,
Like I just can't not yell heavybird, even though they're

(01:41:09):
like it's like every ten minutes. But the thing I
love is that it made me realize that they're fucking
assholes to each other.

Speaker 2 (01:41:16):
Hummingbirds aren't.

Speaker 1 (01:41:17):
Yeah, they're really aggressive and territorial and they keep fighting
against it, and it made me so happy because it's
like everyone's like humming birds are so beautiful and they
get tattoos of them and they love them, and it's like, well,
they can be fucking dicks too, and it's just just
like a positive light to me of like, don't don't
compare yourself, don't don't put yourself up to standards of hummingbirds, no,

(01:41:40):
because they're actually assholes. Yeah and there, and they're sugar freaks.

Speaker 2 (01:41:44):
They're they're addicted to sugar and they just got to
get theirs just like everybody else.

Speaker 1 (01:41:50):
They are mean to each other. It's very funny.

Speaker 2 (01:41:52):
It's funny because I face the sliding glass door where
the hummingbird feeders are, and so the whole time is,
especially today, I can see them and there's a lot.
It's like three at a time every four minutes, so
it's really hard to concentrate. Like every I keep wanting
to go, but then it's.

Speaker 1 (01:42:10):
Like sad and it's so yeah, it's so distracting, but
it's this peaceful thing of staring at a hommybird is
so nice. But then they fucking dive bomb each other
and chirp like yell at each other and then you
hear their wings are this is like, it's just really fun.

Speaker 2 (01:42:25):
They're cool. Yeah, they're super cool. There's actually a video
my friend sent me once. Uh, there's a guy who
put a GoPro on his face and then put a
hummingbird feeder like near under the go pro, so that
it was basically hummingbirds flying up to his face drinking
their stuff, but so he could get these first person
view like slop of hummingbirds. Dude, the best video.

Speaker 1 (01:42:47):
People are the best hommybirds are fucking dicks, So don't
worry about your life. Right, people are the best, yeap,
especially when they have a go pro strapped list. What
we're trying to teach you.

Speaker 2 (01:43:00):
Might be unclear now, but it's going to become clear
very soon. Within the next ten years. It'll be so obvious.

Speaker 1 (01:43:07):
And you'll be like, oh my god, they were right,
And now they live on a tiny island in Maine.

Speaker 2 (01:43:11):
We can't tell them Clamchowder Town. I'm the mayor of
clam Chowder Town.

Speaker 1 (01:43:17):
Mimi is the mascot, and you guys are the listeners,
and you're the ocean. Thank you guys for being our ocean.
Our waves are everything. Yeah, our see, you guys go
deeper than we ever believe possible.

Speaker 2 (01:43:29):
Thank you for being the monster underneath the rock deep
down in the sea that's going to save us from
the end of the world.

Speaker 1 (01:43:36):
That changes colors to match the environment. You guys are
always evolving with us.

Speaker 2 (01:43:40):
That's right. You're the cuddlefish of this podcast, and we
appreciate we want.

Speaker 1 (01:43:43):
To cuddle with you.

Speaker 2 (01:43:48):
Okay, we are back, I mean us saying that it
might be unclear what we're teaching people, but it'll be
clear in ten years. We've got about a year to
figure figure it out. Shit, yeah, shit, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:44:00):
And I want to stand by the fact that honeybirds
are assholes tucking. All these years later, I'm still trying
to get them to come to my hummingbird feeder. I
get the goods sugar and the good water. I use
fucking what's it called water?

Speaker 2 (01:44:13):
Ogave whatever gave hippy water.

Speaker 1 (01:44:16):
I use good water and good sugar to try to
get those little fuckers.

Speaker 2 (01:44:19):
And then my friend and they say no, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:44:21):
They say yes, and then they fight each other over it.
Oh yeah, it's just kind of cute, a lot of
a lot of energy.

Speaker 2 (01:44:26):
Yeah, all right, So this episode was originally titled The
Devil's Number, but.

Speaker 1 (01:44:30):
It's not so if we were naming it today, maybe
we would call.

Speaker 2 (01:44:33):
It its own face, which is when we were talking
about we went off on a cookie tangent what a
Florentine cookie looks like.

Speaker 1 (01:44:43):
And then we could also call it nothing I can't change.
Don't show me nothing I can't change. Oh my god,
jay Loo, I love you.

Speaker 2 (01:44:51):
Then there's also, of course, this is the episode where
I talked about being an emotional lighthouse.

Speaker 1 (01:44:55):
That's the one.

Speaker 2 (01:44:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:44:56):
I think everyone loved that so much.

Speaker 2 (01:44:58):
And I think people relatesolutely yeah to this day, to
this very moment.

Speaker 1 (01:45:03):
So thanks you guys for listening to another episode of rewind.
And we're gonna go back to twenty seventeen and let
Elvis say goodbye. He's kind of unprofessional this time, but
not a surprise. We're gonna let him do it anyways.
He's a diva.

Speaker 2 (01:45:15):
We love him for it. Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Speaker 1 (01:45:22):
Bye bye, bye, Elvis, get your ass out here. He's
keeping Vin's company. And then Elvis, Elvis, Elvis, do you
want to cook key? Wait? Elvis, you want to cook key?

Speaker 2 (01:45:40):
Yeah? Gobbles yes, bye bye,

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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 66: The Devil's Number

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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