Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 69: Never A Mannequin - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yes, every Wednesday we recap our old episodes with all
new commentary, updates and insights, and you are welcome.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Today we're recapping episode sixty nine, You Pervert, which we
named never a Mannequin Legendary.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Classic just iconic? Are you allowed to call your own
titles iconic? This episode came out May teen, twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Let's listen to the intro of episode sixty nine. Hello,
welcome to my favorite murder. That's Karen, that's Georgia. Hi.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
I'm in my element right now. I'm double fisting petting
cats and that's my dream.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
That's how Georgia parties. Yeah, we just.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Got back from our the last weekend of our first tour.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
That's right. Thank you, Washington, d C.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thank you Baltimore, thank you, Philly, to Ford slash Glenside, Pennsylvania.
We had the best weekend. We met so many great people,
so many incredible people.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
They sent us home with so many lovely presents. My
suitcase was crammed.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
And we just gave Stephen many and many the presents
that you gave us to give him.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, after we picked what we wanted out of his growth. K. Yes,
there's lots of stuff that we didn't tell him about
that we're just keeping.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
We'll ever know, little mustache things we get to have,
but we did want to mention it was very exciting
because this time it felt like and maybe it was
the area that we were in.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Oh yeah, Washington. Yeah we met.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
We met a forensic analyst, we met a criminal defense attorney.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Who listened to the show, not just on the street, right, Yes,
they came to the show.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
They bought VIP tickets, They had a high high how
are you make a picture with us?

Speaker 1 (02:01):
And it was very exciting to be meaning actual people.
What was that I don't know my microphone, Oh my god,
George's microphone is leaving. They were.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
People who are in the business of stopping crime who
listened to this podcast, which we were very very honored
by and thank you all for what you do and
for listening.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
But the most exciting.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Part, I'll talk slowly so that while Stephen fixed Georgia's microphone,
she can.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Still participate the story without me.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Stephen, hurry, Wow, that was past the most exciting for well,
I'll say for me, I think for you too.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Oh I started crying, crying.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
When we were in Baltimore, the Rams head, thank you everybody.
The Rams said, that was a really cool, like rock
and roll venue, so hilarious.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Weird, but you could smell the sticky beer from decades past.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, the Pixies were playing the night after. That's what
we were freaking out about. We kept saying we were
trying to We wanted to leave something for Kim Deal
somewhere in the dressing room. But anyway, these two guys
walk up in the meet and greet and flip out
an ID, their federal ID, and it turned up two
FBI agents were at the show.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
And he knew to flip his ID open because we'd
lose our shit. So he walks towards us like in
the copyist cop manner.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
I think he was like six foot six. Listen, both
of them were. Both of them were incredibly handsome.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
They were two hot FBI agents with big smiles on
their faces doing a bit for us.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
And they looked they looked like FBI agents, young ones
that but were cool.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yes, not that you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yes, well, no, they were great and they were super
funny because they immediately were doing a bit about the
girl that did a hometown and Georgia. This was my
favorite part is I was immediately just like I had
no idea what to say, and I was completely starstruck.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Where I'm like, I looked at this guy's ID. But
when I were this is fake, yells across me and
goes move your finger, your fingers covering your face, and
it was it was just the way he flipped open
his wallet looking ID FBI agent, I d his finger
was over his own face, which is like a trick
people use when they're trying to trick you into like
getting into your car. Totally, he started laughing because she

(04:20):
moved his finger and of course it was him.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
He did not believe him, and I was like, that's
a fucking age old.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Everyone knows that trick. And then it turns out it
was not a trick.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
They were two real deal FBI agents who worked for They.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Worked for the Anti Terrorism Yeah, squad. I don't know
if it's a thing. I doubt it's a squad gang, right,
the Anti terrorism gang.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
And then the reason the other guy was with him
was because the first guy who covered his face was
supposed to go with his girlfriend or fiance. She got
deployed to Afghanistan. Yes, I think she was the forensic pathologist.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Maybe you know, she definitely worked in the business as well,
but she was also in the military because she got
deployed to was it Afghanistan?

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Totally Afghanistan. And we were just like, you're you're the
three of your rock stars. You're living a life very
different from ours.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
And also we talk about what you do all the
time as of four experts. I mean, now you're here
as as like audience members, but you're actually the experts.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
It was the coolest experience.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
I asked so many of the experts who are like
I do this. I asked, most of them, are you
mad at us?

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah? And it turns out none of them are mad
at it.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
Oh and then the cop No, wait, is that Austin?

Speaker 1 (05:41):
The cop with the eyeball killer? That was? Oh, yeah,
it was. That was at Moodtower, right, it was Moon Tower. No,
I think it was DC with the pregnant chick. No,
that was no. No, are you sure.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
I think it was DC because the cop they weren't
me a cop convention.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Remember, you're exactly right, and that's why he was there.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
So there was the guy with the Eyeball Killer that
we did a couple few up long time ago. Yeah,
I don't know how many episodes we recorded, and like
this is that's the number ten, right. He wanted to
meet us. He like tweeted that he was in town
for a cop convention, and I was like, oh God,
are you mad at us? Because I were mad at
me because I have no idea what I said about

(06:27):
you in the episode. His daughter in law came in
pregnant and was like, no, he thinks you're great.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Here's a signed copy of his book. But I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
All of that is right, except it wasn't the pregnant
girl that was separate.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
There were three pregnant. There was three girls the eye
the Eyeball Killers. Wasn't it his stepdaughter? Yeah, something like that,
and they were it was her and her two friends. Yeah.
I mean, he doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all
except for that.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
We have these great experiences with people for forty five seconds,
and then another experience happens right after.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
It's very hard to keep them all track, but we
like them all.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
The bummer was he was there and he waiting outside,
but we had no ability.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
Like it was the end and we didn't have the
ability to get him inside.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
I feel like someday soon we're going to post the
Philly episode. It was the last episode and it was
sweet as fuck.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
I thought some girl that I should be able to
name recorded the stay Sexy, Don't Get Murder part that
the crowd yells with us, uh huh, and I put
it on Instagram and.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
It's just so sweet. It's like sweet asn't like sweet.
It's just like this great moment. Oh cool, I love,
oh I love when we do that at the end.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
It's so much fun. It's very fun.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
And all three shows were great, and all three audiences
were like one was better than the next.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
They were just like it.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
They were all so great and fun and excited and
thank you all so so much.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
For being there. And yes, stop asking us on Twitter.
We're going to come to your town. Yeah we will. Yeah,
there's a planned fall tour. Yeah, we just want to
keep doing it.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah, listen, so saying the word Australia and that's all
I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
That's right, And say the word New Zealand because that's
also in there and New Zealand. And yes, we're coming
to your California. No, your state.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
We're coming to your personal California anyways, it's what your
California is, Like, this is my California, but maybe Texas
is your California, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
Like, who, what's your California?

Speaker 2 (08:26):
What's your California. We also thank you for sharing the
news that Ian Brady is dead. That was your your murder,
that's the Mores murder.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, I thought he was dead. Who cares? You're never
going to get out.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
I mean, whatever he did, okay, he I mean, it's
great because he's murdering. He deserves to be dead, but okay.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Now he is.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
But the thing a lot of people were very excited
about is the very recent casting of Zac Efron to
play the part of Ted Bundy.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
They were excited, but there were some weren't.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Some, you know, they just you guys seem to want
to know what our opinion was because you had said
who was the guy that you said should play him?

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Never mind? But no recollection.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
Even though I remember us talking about, okay, I'll be
able to remember it. Steven Stephn's like, I don't listen
to this. What do you think of it?

Speaker 1 (09:18):
I fucking dig it?

Speaker 3 (09:20):
At first I was like huh, but then I remember,
you know, he does these goofy movies, but he's also
done some cool shit and he's a good actor.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Seems like a cool dude.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
And then someone put a photo side by side of
like a young Ted Bundy and like a photo that
kind of matched of zac Efron, and it was just.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
Exactly what it was supposed to be.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, so if he can, if he can act it,
and it'll be legit.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
And I tell you now he can act it. Yeah,
because I may have. I may have been keeping this
to myself up until this point, although I can't imagine why,
because I I love.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
The movie seventeen Again. Yes, he was my lover.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
The movie if he's seventeen again, I believe it's called
with him and Tom Lennon where he plays his own father.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yeah, he is so brilliant in it must be the
one I was thinking of.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yeah, it's such good acting. It's a Disney movie and
it's a body switch. You know, I'm young again. Yeah,
it's basically zach Efron doing an impression of Matthew Perry
and it is so fucking great.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
My sister made me watch it for the first time.
She's like, you have to watch it, you'll like it.
And I have to trust her when she says that
because she's always right, and it is.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
It's just masterful acting by him.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
He doesn't get enough credit for what a good actor
he is, and he tries to do interesting stuff.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
My only thing was April texted me. My friend April
Richardson of Go Bayside podcast fame. She texted me it
was like, I know I'm the one millionth person to
tell you this, but did you know zach Efron?

Speaker 1 (10:46):
And she's like, and what do you think?

Speaker 2 (10:47):
And I said, you're the millionth person that's asked, but
you're the first person I'm answering. And I said, I'm
I believe in him one thousand percent. He just has
to beef down because he's too cut, right.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
It's like it's that like seventies cut, which is like
super skinny but also muscular, but there's no sinewy.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Sinewy that's it. Yeah, yeah, he definitely has to do that.
But he's like a bike rider as opposed to a weightlifter.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
I know, yeah, I'm just excited to see it. I mean,
there's not really a good one at all.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
There's the Mark.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Harmon one, which is fine, but it's like a made
for TV movie, so it's not like and realastic.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
It's not scholastic.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
It's not scholastic, it's not realistic, it's not bombastic, it's
none of those things.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
I think it'll be good also because I think people
are just like, let's ride this fucking true crime wave
as hard as we can. So yeah, people are seeing
that there's so much interest. They've just combined two great things,
which is like what a girl's like true crime and
zach Efron.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Totally, let's do this thing.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
Speaking of listen, next week we're gonna talk about the D. D.
Blanchard and Gypsy Rose documentary that's on HBO. So go
watch it and then we're going to watch it and
talk about it. But it's definitely something we want to
chat with you about.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yes, I can't wait to see it.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
It's called Mommy Dearest and Dead. Yes, so go to
it's on HBO. I think I'm pretty sure it is
pretty sure.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
Go watch it. Yeah, I watch yourself.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
A bunch of people have watched it and asked us
about it. Georgia did her homework. I did not, so
I didn't want to out you. Thank you did you
hear me say that we're going to watch it.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yes, it was. That's called teamwork, and I appreciate it.
But Karen didn't do it, and I did it. Can
you met? Oh my god, what a count I would be.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
There was some was there something in there that really
wanted to do that though, because I.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
Know, I was like, how do I get around saying this?

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Well?

Speaker 1 (12:44):
That was masterful? I like, shate it. Yeah, I pretended
that I had either thank you you took that hit? Steven?
Did you watch it? Not yet? Okay?

Speaker 3 (12:52):
Even all right, so he's on it HBO though, okay,
good two against one any elvis.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
It's always due against one in this setup. On that
particular story, no information is enough. So the fact that
someone has put together an actual documentary and has her.

Speaker 3 (13:10):
Gypsy today talk, Oh my god, there's a prison interview.
And the whole time I was just like, do I
believe her? You cannot tell? And then you're like is
she crying tears or is she just sounding like and
there's so much shit and then I didn't know the
background at the mom so that was really fucking interesting.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
That's in there as.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Well, Oh my god, And I can't wait. I know
it's I very much liked it.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
And the and the exciting part is which a bunch
of people told us and we discovered the director, I
don't have her name, Handy is a murderino who somebody
posts a thing that said, look when the when this
famous documentary filmmaker just shows up on our Facebook page.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
Like commenting on it, like thanks, I'm glad you guys
liked it. Yeah, so cool. So we'll tell it you
guys who it is next week. We'll write it down
prepared thing, we'll talk imagine.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
Oh I wanted to say, so my in the vein
of we love it when just suddenly people like come
out of the woodwork that you would never know have
a murder and then they tell you about it, like
your uncle did that, right, Like, oh I caught the
fucking Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
My cousin Marty uh is the one that lifted the
Richard Ramis's fingerprints at the last breaking and entering in
San Francisco where they figured out who the night stalker was.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
And then you were like, why didn't you tell me?
And he's like, why would I tell you that? Ever?
So I have a similar one.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
My cousin Nancy who's like pretty significantly older than me.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
You know, I think I don't know.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
And she's just like a normal, really lovely, normal person
and married with kids. She teaches old people how to
use the internet, like she's just she's just a really
lovely woman.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
So she then you knows me very patient, does, isn't it?

Speaker 3 (14:48):
She emailed me and says, Hi, Georgia, I listened to
one of your my favorite murder podcasts today. One of
the questions was something about someone you knew new a murderer.
Blah blah blah blah blah. Well, back in the late
eighties early nineties, I worked at the Peterson Publishing House
in West Hollywood. One of the guys in the photo
lab killed one of the models on a shoot. I
knew him when I worked there, but the murder was

(15:11):
years after I left the company. But I was an
editorial assistant of one of the car magazines and he'd
come by and hand me the photos. He never smiled,
but looked me directly in the eye. It was creepy.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
And then I knew anyway, And add.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
Another relative who knows a murderer loved Nancy, And then
I was like, I think this is the one I know,
which is such an interesting story. It's Charles Rathbundy who
killed Linda Sobeck in the fucking desert, right and he said, oh,
I hit her with my car on accident when I
was showing her some cool moves and I buried her
body because I got scared.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
And it's like, no, you fucking didn't know.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
And then like they found another one of his bodies
close by that as well.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, was it in the desert? Was it in Angelie's
National form?

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Yeah, but I think it was like an open thing,
I don't know, open plain of thing right right, it
was just far away, like he would basically get them
to come and go on quote unquote shoots.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
And maybe that was just in my imagination. I like
pictured the desert, so yeah, that's what it looks like.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
It doesn't it was what we know is it was
far away, Yeah, because I don't know my I'm pretty
sure though that that was a city confidential for Los
Angeles about the death of Lindosobec.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yes, and I told her.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
I I messaged her back and was like, I've fucking
gone into a rural, rural area with a guy who
wanted to take photos of me when I was younger
and didn't get murdered, and so that murder is just
I know what it's like to suddenly be like, oh, fuck,
this was a mistake and nobody knows I'm here. Yes, yeah,

(16:47):
so scary, and I don't know this. I thought I
kind of knew this person. I don't know him at all, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, Well, when you're young, you think you're friends with everybody. Yeah,
it's just like, oh, yeah, my buddy, that's a photographer
or whatever. Where it's like, where's he from, what's does
he have any siblings? How much do you know this person?

Speaker 1 (17:03):
And you're easily charmed you don't bring anyone with you, right,
you do it by their dictate. This is how we're
going to do it. This is where we're going to go,
because you don't not to say fuck no.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Well, also, you're so complimented by the fact that someone's like,
I think that you are a model.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
Right, which I totally I admit to that completely, of course,
why wouldn't you. Yeah, that's a big that's a big
part of all that. And then the shame of like, oh,
how dare you think that? I mean, it's the perfect
play they have you coming and going.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Listen, don't do it, you guys. Let's start at a
well populated place and you meet them there. Don't get
in the car with them, right right. Yes.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
And there's also there was a guy that was doing
this and he was actually going up to women at
the Century City Mall had that one, and he was
saying he was a casting director for the new James
Bond movie. Yes, and they had it on surveillance, right,
they have him on surveillance. And you would go to
houses that were being he would get shown the house
by real estate agents, so he knew it was an

(18:05):
empty house. Then he would have the women meet them
at that house and kill them there, and that's how
he got caught.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
It's so crazy. Yeah, uh, that's amazing.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
Can I quickly do a podcast recommendation?

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Of course?

Speaker 3 (18:20):
And I've said I've talked about this podcast in its
first season because it was excellent, and then they I
just like listened to the second season in a fucking
minute because it was so good. Yeah, it's someone knows something,
which I think they're calling sks now because no one
knew anything last season?

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Is that the Canadian one? Yeah, with the guy with
the love him.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
Yeah, so he The second season is fucking great. It's
really great storytelling. He has so much empathy, which is
you know, hard to find sometimes in these stories. His
name's his name is David Riggan, Redggin Regan, and he's
like helped solve murders in the past.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
He's a documentary friend.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
Like it's it's fucking heartbreaking. It's really well done and
I highly recommend it. He has the most charming Canadian accent.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
He's so charming.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
And that first season, even though there were no hard answers,
it still is such a great See my god, it's
so good.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
It's heart it's also heartbreaking.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, but it's also it never really was solved, so
it's still so interesting because you don't know if someone
knows something or not right.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
And it also shows what these detectives are up against
when these homicides come in. It's like, because you know,
I do have a lot of guilt about how much
shit we talk about detective work or police work where
it's such armchair quarterbacking, and we talk about that a lot.
But it going through it that way, especially that was
that one was from the seventies. I first season murder

(19:44):
of that little boy, and it's just like it's you're
they're going on nothing. They have strands, they have basic
bits of information.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
And we don't think about the fact that they don't
have time. It's not like they have the next three
months to look into this case. They have, you know,
a bunch of other cases going as well and more
adding up, and they don't have the time to unfortunately
give to it by no fault of their own right,
you know the fact that they haven't hired enough detectives,
they don't have the money to at the department.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, so it turns into all that red tape stuff. Yeah,
that's such a it's such an interesting like the fact
that politics affect so many of these murder cases and
how much time and attention they get, which then folds
in the whole thing of when sex workers are involved
and they get dismissed, or when it's or.

Speaker 3 (20:29):
Did she disappear and did she just run away? Maybe
she just ran away?

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, that old kind of seventies like I don't want
to do the paperwork, she's a runaway, the sex working
and then also just the like when it's a white
blonde teenage cheerleader that's in high school. All of the
political power goes behind it as opposed to anybody of color,
a person that's a sex worker, person that was a
drug addict.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Well, what I love.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
About this episode or this season of Someone of Something
is it's not a fucking perfect blonde cheerleader. She had
been an drugs she was an exotic dancer, you know,
she was had a temper. She wasn't but she still
deserves she still deserves to, you know. Her mother is
like the most heartbreaking character you've ever heard, Odette.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
Which I love that name, but I got to listen
to that. Yeah, but yeah, it's good.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
It's not until and then there's the thing too, of
like at the time of the murder, friends and family
might not want to talk, you know, they know things,
they're scared, but he's he's looking into it, like twenty
years later, and he's such an empathetic guy and he's
just trying to solve it. He's not trying to, you know,
fuck with anyone, right, And so they talked to him
and I mean he's fucking great.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, he's so good.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
So watch Someone Know Something in second season and first yes,
same way it's podcast, right yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
O Kai Hi, how are you. I'm great, How are you?
I'm really good?

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Is there anything else we wanted to I guess my
only the one, And I can't remember if I've said
this already, but I've gotten on your recommendation so into.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
The now. I can't remember the name of it. Which one?
What's it about? The the guy, the Australian guy. Oh, crime,
mysterious wonders.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
Oh honey, Yes, mysteries abound mysteries.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
It is just the most beautiful. It is so beautifully presented.
He at the top of every story, he cites his sources.
That's the theirirst thing I noticed where I'm like, ah, yes,
that's what we're that's what we're doing. But for someone
who's just.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
Reading articles about mysteries throughout the internet, it's so good.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
It's so good. It's not his stories. He's doing no research.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
He's well, he's reading articles, but he's it's performative. And
it's also he gets why certain things are interesting. I
don't know, it's just I've listened to now probably twenty
of them because we've been doing so much traveling.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
It's just the perfect podcast and it goes.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
All over the place, like seven interesting Facts about urine
or like you know why the like mysteries about the Moon,
which is my favorite fucking one. It's like these things
I never knew about. But then also he is the
most droning, like the most comforting voice. So I fall
asleep to it every fucking night. I thought, Yeah, I
was falling asleep on the plane. But then there's this
one thing he does where, like the he'll tell the

(23:17):
story and then have music in between the next ones,
and for some reason that music is super loud. Yeah,
so I keep waking up when the story's it's scary bad,
but I love it.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
Mysteries bound, Okay, Mysteries bounds so good. Okay, So we
do ours? Do we go first based on our tour
or do we go first? We did shit Sorry, Q.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
And A last time, but then we did the live
show after Wait, we did the live show before Q
and it.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Stephen, Yeah, is this like a reset?

Speaker 4 (23:45):
Or do we go from the tour?

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Should we flip a coin? Yeah? Flip the flip the
coin the FBI coin. Yes, they gave us the way.
What side do you want?

Speaker 2 (23:54):
The FBI guys gave us these commemorative coins that are
so cool looking. Yeah, I mean, they even brought us
presents hot FBI agents brought us pens the best time.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
It was, Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
I rarely get like dumb struck or I'm like, can't
figure out one good thing to say.

Speaker 3 (24:12):
And I just kept laughing and going really really and
like yeah, I almost started crying, which I don't usually do.
And then every like the next ten people who we met,
I was like, those guys were.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Like, so what all right?

Speaker 3 (24:26):
So are you pick pick gold or blue? That's blue.
That's gold. This says Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
counter counter Terror Terrorism Division, and gang it says, now
it hasn't.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
The counter terrorism gang. You Yeah, you'll do it. One
in the middle is blue, you know what I'm saying,
and that one's gold. Yeah. So Karen, you call it.
I'll be blue. Can we flip a coin to see
who calls it? I'll be blue? You be gold? Okay, gold?
Wait you blue? I'm wait. But we didn't say what
we're flipping to go first or last? Oh you get?

(25:03):
Do you oh? So you get? Do you like going
first or do you like going last? I think it
depends on the story.

Speaker 4 (25:09):
Do you mind slip to whoever gets it gets to
choose what this.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Is suddenly really interested in what's happening.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Georgia won that. So do you want to just pick
what you want to do?

Speaker 1 (25:20):
I like going first? Do it? There's a real big bummer.
I mean, yes, so is mine it? I mean it's
a murder. It's like no, mine's super light harden. Yeah,
there's nothing. It's it's not like an old one or whatever,
but that it's a good one. Okay, do you so
you just do what you want? Okay, mine's pretty short, Okay,
and what I just love it? Like we can't even

(25:42):
do a coin flip correctly. We're talking amazing.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
We like recommend these investigative journalism like fucking like next
level pieces of journalism podcasts, and.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Then we're like, flip, going to flip a coin? Steven?
Did we who went first? Just slop?

Speaker 3 (25:59):
It's so enjoyable slop in a charming wrapper?

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yes, for sure, you know what I mean. I mean,
let's hope.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
Like what kind of candy is really gross? And then
you're like, oh, it looks so good.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
Remember Rocky Road, which was dark chocolate covered y yes,
marshmallows and like some weird nut maybe a walnut.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Chocolate and oh fuck, those were good? Did they not
have them anywhere? Oh? I was? I was naming it
as a bad one. Oh, I guess there's no candy
that's bad. Really, yeah, I guess you're right. Let's talk
about candy for half an hour.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
I actually, when we were leaving the airport, I fucking
will talk about candy skippers. When I was leaving the airport,
it was in that place where we had traveled so much.
I was so tired. I was so tired. And we
got back on Monday, and I was supposed to do
a show that night. Right fucking bailed on it because
I was like, by the time the show was going
to start, it would have been two am my time,
and I had been traveling all week.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
I was like, well, when you were going to do
another podcast on the way home, weren't you?

Speaker 2 (26:54):
I did here my other podcast, Do you need a ride?
I recorded one on the way home, honey.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Then I go home. When I laid down, all of
my limbs turned to cement.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
But when I was leaving the airport, I walked by
a seased candy cart and I was like, I can
have seas candy. I got this voice in my head
that was like it was my birthday. I don't even
know what I was thinking, but I walked up and
as I walked around the cart, I was just like, well,
so what you're going to take a pound of candy.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Home and eat it? They don't have the singles. They
have like smaller boxes. But I got around.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
I walked around the whole thing, and then I met
a lady on the other side and I said there
were little tiny boxes of things, and I go, do
you have tiny boxes of nuts and chees And she
was like, oh no, only one pound.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
And I was like, okay, bye, I've walked away before
anything else happens. Why don't they get samples in there
like they do that regular seas candy because it's like
a weird kiosk and they don't, you know, next time?
Their lollipops are super satisfying.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, those are good, except for there's too many flavors
I don't like of the lollipops.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
Is there a butterscotch I think I like that one, yeah,
Or coffee? There's coffee, there's butterscut I mean, listen, when
you guys come to California, that's our fucking Sea's candy.
You just bring it to whenever I see one.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
I'm like, am I going anywhere soon that I need
to bring a box of Seascar?

Speaker 1 (28:12):
I know, you know that's our Christmas thing. We're like
Arnica thing. Really yeah, that's all.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
We do is like you're going to go somewhere, you
grab one of those jeound boxes and nuts and cheese
and that's like the gift.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
I like the soft centers though, do you perfect?

Speaker 3 (28:26):
But are like dark meat, white meat, turkey thing. You
can share a chicken and a box of chocolates.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
And everybody's going to be satisfied.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
And what was I going to say? Yeah, we do
that too, just like a table and there's Jewish cookies
and sees boxes candy and everyone just sits around, talks
and eats too much.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
And it's the best. So good. Shout out to Rugula.
That's just the best. Is the word that I just
shouted out of cookie. I love it. Fuck shout out
to a Rugula. Hello, just plain Ruglag is the lettuce?
Oh yeah, I'm not randomly shouting at a lettuce. It

(29:06):
wasn't that random. It was Jewish cookies.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
And that's the one that you got at Michael's, the
the diner we went to after the show.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Right, No, that was that was it's where are we?
Shout out? I'm not sure? Do you want to start? Sure?
All right, shout out Mary? See you really made some
good chance Mary. Oh I love her? Yeah, I meant
the little old lady in with the glasses and the shawl.

(29:36):
Is that made up?

Speaker 3 (29:37):
I just recently found out that what's the cookie woman? No, wait,
that's not right, Lorna Dune. No, one of those people
are made up. Oh, probably Betty Crocker. Yeah, my friend's
reading a documentary on her. Is that a thing you
can read?

Speaker 2 (29:52):
She told me that, yeah, waits just created by a company.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, which I think is not fair. It is pretty
fucked up. Okay, and we're back.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Can you imagine us so instantly talking about our tour
weekend where we drove. We flew into one city, drove
to the next city, drove to the next city, and
then flew home.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
No nasty. Who were we? Oh we were young. We
were young and naive and were like, oh, this is
what touring is. Yeah, totally three cities a weekend. No,
not anymore. We can't do that anymore. You guys, not
with our old bone. No, it's a young lady's game
and there.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Oh and that's the live show where the FBI guys.
We've talked about those fbies quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
Over the years. That was pretty epic.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
I think since then, we've definitely met a few people
who are from that branch of government.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
Secret government types. That's right.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
My niece in law, so Vince's sister's daughter works for
the FBI, which I can't talk about, but she's told
me a few things. Yeah, and it sounds pretty epic.
She's having a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
What a cool thing to work to do as a
young woman.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
Yeah, that's very Yeah, that's very cool. And so since then, also,
zach Efron had his star turn as Ted Bundy.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
I mean, everybody loved the job he did on that.
I mean maybe they didn't like the thing overall, but
it was like, I feel like everybody was impressed by
what he brought to the table.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
Yeah, and we're talking about the movie Extremely Wicked, Shockingly
Evil and Vile, which came out in twenty nineteen.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
And yeah, he did a great job. Yeah, he's a
great act Is he going to not do a good job?
He's Zach fucking that frong. He's Zach Efron.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
He's been nailing it since he was eleven, Like, come on.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Oh, and then it's so funny. So since then, I
was talking about season two if Someone Knows Something, and
they have now put out nine seasons yes as of
twenty twenty five, and the host David Ridgin, who we adore,
also launched a new related series called The Next Call,
which continues the style of investigating cold cases in bringing
in family, eyewitnesses and suspects. He's so good at interviews.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
I mean that sounds like exactly your kind of podcast.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
It does. I'm going to go download now.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
You know what's really funny is that Mysteries Abound as
a podcast. You can still listen to the over three
hundred episodes. But also he hosts a podcast called Unexplained
that when we went back on the road and you know,
the first time I like tuned out on an airplane,
that's what was.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
In my ears. I forgot about that altogether.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
It like makes you go to sleep, but it's also
compelling and it's like then you learn a little something.
I love it and we love Richard McLean Smith.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
We sure do.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
He's a great podcaster, love his work and a great friend.
We met him when we were in Melbourne or Sydney, that's.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
I forgot, and we were like, let me hear you talk,
Let's talk. It was hilarious and he was so bewildered.
He was just like, what the fuck is this?

Speaker 2 (32:34):
Like he was just this lovely man got into podcasting,
you know, like, oh, I thought it would be interesting.
And then he said this some one of our shows
with the murder, you know, screaming at the top of
their lungs.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
All right, should we get into some stories. Let's get in.
So let's get into Georgia's story about Keith Warren. Hey
speaking of fucked up? Yeah, yeah, this one's a bummer. Okay.
So on July thirtieth, nineteen eighty six, or in nineteen

(33:07):
eighty six, and I can see the outfit I'm wearing or.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
In an affluent community of Silver Spring, which is located
in Maryland, and nineteen year old Keith Woodell Warren was
found hanging from a tree two days after he was
reported missing.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
By his mother.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
Keith, who's an African American, had been accepted into North
Carolina Central University and was set to go in the fall,
but he was currently home for the summer, making money
and saving it up to go away handsome right. Everyone
said he was a good kid, you know, good good
in school. He did have some depression issues, but in

(33:49):
his recent in his recent past, his parents had divorce,
but he had a bright future. So on so July thirty,
thirteen eighty six, a woman walking her dog dog had
found Keith in a wooded area near his family's home.
His body was hanging from a small tree by his
neck and the tree was bent double with his waists.
The cord was elaborately hung and anchored around the base

(34:10):
of the tree, and it was twenty five feet then
to a small sapling, So it was like this elaborate
kind of hanging mechanism and then I encircled with sapling's
trunk arched through a fork. The first paramedic who arrived
on the scene said that he immediately knew it was
a stage hanging ooh, and so he didn't touch the
body at all.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
He was waiting for the police to arrive.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
Nice, but the officer and detective who arrived at the
scene released that paramedic.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
The officer stated that.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
This was interfering with his lunch break, and they didn't
cordon off the area, and the scene was trampled, and
I of course looked up his name and warning immediately
crime scene photos come up. Oh but you can see
in the background of one of them just some fucking
shirtless dude hanging out staring at the body. So they
hadn't even taken it down yet, and there was a guy,

(35:05):
you know, maybe not even ten feet just hanging out.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
WHOA, yeah, okay, it's like some hippie dude. So this
was before they understood how but didn't it I don't
think so, It's just it was just Yeah, I think
when we read about a lot of these fucked up
crimes that happens, But I don't think that that was
a normal procedure. I can't imagine. Yeah, let us know,
cops from the eighty six.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, when did they When did they really know that
you had to lock down a crime scene and no
one got to come look be near it like a whole?

Speaker 1 (35:38):
Like what do they call that? Establish a perimeter? Like?

Speaker 3 (35:40):
I want to know as well, when did they start
wearing gloves and stop smoking at the crime scene? Yea, cops,
you know what I mean it had to be in
somewhere in the nineties, because even oj Simpson's crime scene
was handled without gloves, which they definitely should have known
by then. Yes, right, anyways, Wow, okay, it gets where Okay.

(36:01):
Despite the obvious discrepancies, authorities didn't see anything wrong with
the scene, and after a brief visual inspection, the County
Department Medical Examiner determined that Keith Worne had committed suicide.
No autopsy was ordered, the body was sent directly to
a funeral home. The detective chose it, and this was

(36:21):
all that happened. Oh and his body was embalmed all
before his mother was even aware of his death.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
What.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, well, that's simply not procedure.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
No, I can't be well, back then you didn't need
to perform an autopsy on a suicide, but it was
definitely suspicious.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
The embalming that kind of thing is the parent's decision. Yes.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
And also, he wasn't taken to a morgue. He was
taking to a funeral home. I think the funeral director
didn't really get any information about what was going on,
so he just thought he was supposed to embalm the body.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
But silver Spring, do you know a smaller place. Could
they use that excuse that this was like small town
they're not used to.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
From what I can tell, I don't know if it was,
if it was just the community or what, but it
was like seventy thousand.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
People, okay, not huge, no, okay, but.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
It was like a It was like forty minutes from Philly.
It was like not far from DC. So it's not rural.
It's rural. How do you say that? I can never
hear saying it, right. It's just a weird word.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
It's just stupid. Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
So by the six hours after he had been found,
his mother was finally told about it, and by then
he had been embalmed.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
I mean, that's unacceptable, I know. Okay.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
When the family asked for his clothing that he even
wearing at the time, the funeral home informed them that
most of it had been destroyed because of the decay
of the body had ruined them. So they just got
rid of the decayed body clothes, okay. They were only
given his jacket and a pair of brown boots. And
from I can say from those from those crime scene

(38:01):
photos that I of course looked at all of them
and almost started crying. Because I have to look at
them because I'm a fucking weirdo. He wasn't decayed at all.
He wasn't decaying. He was found two days after he
went missing. Don't know how long he is up there,
but he looks like.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
He had gotten there recently.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
There is nothing about him that looks like what you
would expect from a hanging, which is a lot of
really grotesque things happened to you, right, There was no
indication that he was decayed anyways. Later when his mom
attempted to visit the tree to pray there because she
was so fucking heartbroken, she got there and realized the

(38:42):
tree had been cut down. What yeah, okay, taken into
evidence by the police, which his mother was like, if
this is a suicide and the case was closed, which
it was, why are you taking evidence?

Speaker 1 (38:53):
That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, you're taking an evidence for a suicide and a
clothes you don't do.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
You're not taking evidence from the body. But you are
taking the.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
Tree, definitely, And the tree couldn't be found or maybe
it was destroyed in a fire. I couldn't really, there's
no Wikipedia about this.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
There's like not a lot of shit. A lot of
the articles are just.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
You know, the same stuff regurgitated because there's just not
a ton of information out there. I couldn't believe there
was an a Wikipedia about this. Yeah, so I had
to do.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
A lot of work.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
So Mary had doubts, but it really wasn't untel. She
heard from a friend of Keith's that she really got.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
Suspicious. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
So Rodney Kendall was a friend of hers and said
that he had seen a car full of black mails
looking for Keith shortly before his death. Rodney told him
they hadn't seen Keith and they immediately left. Then several
days later, Rodney had another odd encounter with a high
school acquaintance of both of theirs, name Mark Finley, and

(39:58):
he said he seemed pretty I thought it was strange
because he acted like he needed to find Keith very quickly,
and I told him I didn't know where he was
and he left. So all these people searching for him weird.
The Marilyn County p D refused to hand over the
photos taken at the crime scene to his mother because
he said they would be too difficult for her to see.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
So she's asking to see him and I say no.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
And they said that she should have a closed casket too,
So April in nineteen ninety two.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
So this happened in eighty six.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
It wasn't until ninety two, which would have been her
son's twenty fifth birthday exactly. Mary found a plane manilla
envelope on her doorstep, Anonymous, and inside there were five pictures,
each showing a different view of Keith's hanging by his neck.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
So those are the photos that I saw.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
Whoa yeah, and so it's from the back. It's I mean,
a close up of his face. It's just it's so heartbreaking.
His face is so sweet and like young. So she
saw the photos and she found glaring discrepancies, including his
clothes didn't fit him, that he was wearing, which made

(41:11):
her think she was he was wearing someone else's clothes.
There was no decomposition, which the funeral told her, funeral
home told her there was. And also he was wearing
in the photographs. Remember he had they had given him
brown boots at the funeral home.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
He was wearing white sneakers in the photographs. Yeah what fuck? Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
There was a note attached to all these photos that said,
don't worry, Mark Finley will be next. And Mark Finley
was the kid who said that he had seen people
asking for Keith. So the family hired private detective Joe
Alercia I think, who, in addition to these discrepancies, also
saw that And this is the fucking point of it

(41:56):
that always gives me chills. So Keith had on the
back of his jacket leaves and debris, meaning he and
he didn't land on his back, meaning they started to
think that he had been brought there and hoisted it up.
So so the family also then hired a renowned forensic pathologist,

(42:21):
is Ador Melocus, who exhumed Keith's body and did a
toxicology report, which they never fucking did originally, which is insane, right, Like,
even not an autopsy, a toxicology report is just seems
like a basic you know.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Yeah, if you're just looking for information of what happened,
how did he kill himself, what state of mind was
in at the time.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
And also just that the family would want the difference
between somebody who has hung themselves and somebody who has
died under suspicious circumstances. You to give a family a
story of your son killed himself is a totally different
narrative and says something about your son that then you
have to live with, whereas your son being a victim

(43:05):
of a murder is a completely down story.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
It's just like no answers, he had no answers. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
Well, and someone you know, there is something too about
the fact that they saw a young black man hanging.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
From a tree.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
Yeah, and im mediate liquid suicide where it's like someone said,
it reminded me of the old South, Yeah, and hangings and.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
Not that old.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
I mean, it's still happened by fucking racist motherfuckers at
the time, right, So to see him hanging suspiciously, and
I saw it his legs his feet are on the
ground and his legs are kind of bent forward, so
he's almost in like if he were in a sitting
position with his legs forward, and then it got hoisted
up a little, so he wasn't hanging right. And it

(43:45):
was definitely, like you know, indicative of lynching. Yes, is
indicative the right word? Yes, I mean, yeah, great. But
also it's that thing of yeah, that's to.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Rush all of that away, not to immediately at the
scene say suicide. No nope, no no, yeah, sorry, I
didn't mean to rap you. No, no, no, that's I'm
agreeing with you and going with what you're telling me,
and it's very upsetting.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Okay, your gall Yeah, I will listen to it. Yeah
gall No, it is okay man. This is called question
yourself corner right by Georgia So Okay. Toxicology report analysis
reveals abnormally elevated amounts of here we go trichlora, methane,

(44:40):
methane tricole or methane okay, solvent found in paints and laquers,
and powerful chemicals that are usually found in glue and solvents. So,
according to doctor Isidora uh Mahallakis, the levels found in
Keith's body were more than enough to kill him.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
And this is a body that has already been what
do you call it, embalmed, embalm and buried.

Speaker 3 (45:08):
So there was the argument that maybe they came from
the embalming, maybe they came.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
From the soil where he's buried. Yeah, but it was pretty,
it was pretty The doctor felt sure that it was
not that.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
Because they weren't chemicals used in that, Okay, And they weren't,
you know, they were at high enough levels that it
wouldn't have been absorbed if it was in the soil. Okay,
So you know, it's the it's the argument, is it
or isn't it?

Speaker 2 (45:32):
You know, And but the doctors saying, I'm fine, I
know what I'm looking at, I know what the situation was,
and I'm finding these chemicals there anyway, and that's highly suspicious.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
Yeah, but the other side probably we're just as sure
that it wasn't true.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Well, the thing is, once you've embalm my body, you
can't fucking say anything for sure, which is why you
don't rush to embalm.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
I mean that one is the biggest glaring thing of
that's the biggest fuck up.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
Yeah, what do you or cover up?

Speaker 3 (46:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Okay for sure? Okay, m hm okay.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
Based on the high levels of this chemical in the
victim's body, the doctor concluded that severe mental confusion would
have resulted and impair decision making of routine actions, so
he couldn't even decide to kill himself if he wanted to, Okay.
Outside investigators claimed that the way he had apparently hung
himself was practically impossible due to the small tree and

(46:26):
the fact that two ropes were used in the suicide.
Tryn to totally understand, because you can still if you
want to kill yourself and you need two ropes, you can.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
Still do I guess they were.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
What they were saying is the way that's set up,
And what it sounded like is they were using a
long tree against the other boys. That it was, Yeah,
that basically you can't do that by yourself.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
So all he would have needed to hang himself was
run rope and one tree not and there was nowhere
for him to jump off of either. Yeah, so I
don't I think it's probably you know, they were like, well,
you can. You can hang yourself any way you want.
But I feel like, in the same way that you
when people try to drown themselves, you just can't allow yourself.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
To do that. There's some something deep in you that
stands up or gets out of Yeah, there's the fight
in instinct inside of you.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
Right, So there's that. And then he said, I do
not believe that he would out of the ability to
hang himself, and for that matter, he would not have
the ability to make the decision about hanging himself, And
so he ruled the death that the death must be
investigated as a homicide. The family appealed to the Maryland
County PD and eventually the United States Attorney General Janet

(47:32):
Reno for colonel investigation into the death, as well as
the subsequent actions of the police department. All requests have
been denied. Oh yeah, so here's what I wrote. So
how did Keith die? And these are kind of taken
all over the internet of ideas. Did the overdose on
solvents found in uh that were found in his body.

(47:54):
He was at a party with friends, maybe they were huffing,
maybe they were doing drugs and he owos and his
friends panicked and staged his death to look like a
suicide to avoid police, right, which would make sense of
his clothes being changed, because maybe he vomited all over
his clothing. Maybe there was blood on that and so
that's why they changed his clothes, including his shoes, and

(48:16):
they just wanted to make it look like a suicide.
Or did someone you know come from behind with a
rag and that's why he had to stop ins inside him.
So it wasn't his choice. Yeah, his backpack had some
of his favorite tapes in it, which points to him
maybe going to a party. That's just in my opinion,
Like you know, when you're going out with friends, you're like,

(48:37):
I'll bring some music, we're going to hang.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Out, right, because back in I will say this, in
the eighties, you didn't you didn't travel with tapes. Like
you would make one mixtape maybe and bring it somewhere,
but like usually left that either at home or in
your car because they were just such a pain.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
Yeah, So he had his backpack favorite tapes in it,
which makes me think it's someone he was going to,
is someone he knew in that what just that I
was thinking about. It's like party plan. If it was
a party he worked about a mixtape, one or two tapes.
If it was his friends, he'd be like, I want
you to hear this tape, this new one, this one's great.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Right, Does that make any sense? I think? So that's
off the top of my head and clearly just speculation.
We're just speculating.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
Yeah, So, okay, some people thought that he may have
been and this is on like you know Wiki, uh,
what's it, Reddit and shit, that he may have been
an informant to the police and he was found out
by the local drug dealers, which might have been the
guys in the car, and they were looking for him

(49:40):
and killed him, which makes sense that the cops would
cover it up. Because they don't want everyone to know
that they caused a murder.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
Yes, which is actually I keep trying to find this
murder that I found out about long time ago.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
There was this girl. It's kind of small town. The
cops found all this LSD on her and said, you're
going to jail forever or you need to be our informant.
The guys, the drug dealers, she went over there wired
they found out shot her in the fucking head.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
But it took them a long time to find out
about that. I can't find that one. I think I
remember you telling me about that one. It sounds familious.
It's always stuck with me.

Speaker 3 (50:13):
Took the sweet hippie you know in the nineties, hippie girl. Yeah, okay,
So was it a hate crime? Very well could have been.
Did he actually somehow commit suicide? I mean, that's always
an option to it's not gone. So, in a final
disturbing twist, the one person who may have been able

(50:35):
to answer those questions turned up dead under suspicious circumstance.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Mark Finley. Mark Finley, Oh shit.

Speaker 3 (50:43):
When he was one of the guys who came looking
for Keith a few days before he died, and his
mother had received the package. It said to Mark Finley's
next she told him and he said to her that
he would be by to see her soon, and she said,
he said, I need to unload. So maybe he was

(51:05):
one of the friends at the party. Maybe he knew something.
So one month after she received those photos and talked
to him, he was dead. According to police, he died
accidentally when he was struck when he struck a curb
on his bike and was thrown off in what was
described as a freak accident. However, according to paramedics who

(51:26):
were on the scene, his wounds were not consistent with
a bicycle accident. His wounds were more consistent with being
hit by a car or being hit with a baseball bat.
Oh man, his wounds were greater that could have been
than that falling would have caused, especially in the location
where it allegedly took place. So his mother, Mary Cooey,

(51:49):
died suddenly in May May twenty fifth, in two thousand
and nine.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
And she ded a keys mother.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Yeah, she dedicated her life after that finding justice.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
They spent a lot of money. They had what's it
called awards for finding her information reward? Yes, yeah, not
awards well, monetary awards or as we know them, rewards. Yes, yes,
thank you awards too positive for this, I mean listen.

(52:23):
So she died, never found any justice but her, but
Keith's sister, little sister, Sherry Warren, has taken up her
mom's fight. She says that even if he died of
an accidental overdose, she still wants the Maryland County PD
to be held accountable. Yeah, actions, so she organizes marches.
She is still looking for answers. There's still rewards out there,

(52:47):
and she just wants answers. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
Also, just that idea, it's just that thing of like
what they if something.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
Procedurally is so screwed up that they they're.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
Taking pictures of a dead body and then there's just
kind of a dude loitering in the background, or there's
no perimeter on the crime scene, or there's no or
they're rushing a body to be taken to the funeral home,
like all of those things, aside from the injustice to
this family and to this victim. They can't do it
that way ever. Again, So it's that idea too, that

(53:21):
like this, it's just that thing of the crime procedure
cannot be that screwed up, like you just have to
learn from those mistakes. Say, it's all a mistake. Yeah,
best case scenario, it's just a series of terrible mistakes.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
Especially because those people who were there at the time
are probably not on the force anymore. They probably retired. Yeah,
so it's kind of admitting. It's a thing of like
when you hear on these onlike, you know, forty eight
hours and all these things of like cops saying or
detectives saying, yeah, we did that wrong and we learned

(53:56):
from it. It's so refreshing to hear because everyone makes mistakes,
you know, and we're fucking big on the eighties and
nineties and before that being fucked up in terms of
you know, procedures.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Yeah, so it is, and it is tough because you know,
to be involved in uh, in crime, in stopping crime,
you have to be a big tough man who is
brave and faces the worst.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
Of all society all day every day.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
And so admit it and get being flexible and being
able to admit mistakes and all those kinds of things
don't go along with that persona.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
And I think that's changing too.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
It's that thing of like it's the no one's looking
for you to be the like Texas ranger.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
Yeah, or do every single thing correctly. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
People make mistakes and it's like, you know, one guy
in the on the forest believes it's not what it is.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
He's not going to fight with every other guye on there.
He's a woman.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
He's not gonna fight with his fucking boss. You know,
you get labeled snitch and you know, right.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Or troublemaker or whatever from what we know on Law
and Order, all the shit you get put on and
get desk job, death duty after that.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
That's exactly right. It's all political. I mean, it's it's
political where it shouldn't be. But wow, that's amazing. It's
the fact I just can't believe there's not more on that. Yeah,
more on that, especially because well it also kind of
goes to show that I feel like in this day
and age, because that is such a a black man
being hung hung and having that not fully and thoroughly

(55:31):
looked into is such a.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
It is so problematic.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
It's such a like the kind of thing that I
think people are working very hard to make sure it
doesn't get swept under the rug anymore, hopefully.

Speaker 3 (55:45):
And to be Fair Case File did an episode on
this like in January, so it's not nobody's you know,
episode forty three.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
He does, you know his story as well, So I
don't want.

Speaker 3 (55:59):
To not give them a shout out him a shout out.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Yeah, but yeah, it's fucked up, man, Let's open that
back up.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
Yeah, I'd love to know the answer to that. That's crazy.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Okay, we're back. Do you have any updates on this case?
I do so.

Speaker 3 (56:16):
Keith's sister, Sherry, continues to fight for justice, recently taking
Keith's case to a panel of medical examiners. The panel
concluded that there's nothing medically to sustain a suicide ruling
in his death, so Sherry asks the state to change
his death certificate. The Maryland Medical Examiner has since reclassified
Keith's manner of death to undetermined, so it's a step forward. Unfortunately, though,

(56:39):
Keith's case remains closed for now, but in twenty twenty four,
Maryland passed the Death Reclassification Act, which requires police to
reopen or reinvestigate cases where a death certificate has been changed.
Sherry is hopeful that this new law will apply to
Keith's case, and has said that once the case is reopened,
she will be able to rest Sary's journy to find

(57:00):
the truth has been documented in Uprooted, a three part
docuseries available on HBO Max. And then also just to
point out that when we covered Keith Worne's death in
twenty seventeen, we couldn't have known that a nearly identical
tragedy would be in the headlines again in twenty twenty five.
D Maar Trevion read Alton, known as Trey, was a
young black man with his whole future ahead of him,

(57:23):
who was a student at Delta State University, and on
September fifteenth, twenty twenty five, just so recently, his body
was found hanging from a tree on campus and police
ruled a suicide almost immediately. Just like Keith's case, questions
started piling up right away because the scene didn't make sense,
evidence was mishandled, and the ruling just felt rushed. Decades apart,

(57:45):
these cases share the same disturbing pattern. Both families have
fought to have the deaths investigated as possible homicides, not suicides,
and both families have had to push back against indifference
from law enforcement. Civil rights lawyer Ben Crump is representing
the family. Colin Kaepernick's No Your Rights Camp is funding
an independent autopsy, which is incredible.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
You know, there's a lot of black creators on TikTok
that I've seen when this story broke, just getting on
and saying black men do not go to trees. It's
absolutely insane to buy into that story, even for one moment,
knowing even a little bit about American history. That is
an insane, like excuse belief that it would be any

(58:31):
kind of sugi.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
It's an immediately suspicious based on history.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
And it's also a dog whistle. And it's also where
we are in this country where those kinds of things
thinking that they can come back or that people are
going to stand by.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
Yeah, all right, let's get into your story, Karen, about
the Riverside County serial killer.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Mine's fucked up to congratulations, So we managed caring so
rare that you find a murder story that's awful. I
got Actually, the first whiff of this I ever heard
is from the show Real Detective that we've talked about
many times.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
So good on Netflix? It is uh, it's is it
on Netflix?

Speaker 2 (59:21):
I'm not sure it's on regular TV now, Like I
have just t vode and so I have like ten
episodes from regular TV.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Okay, then what I only season one is on Sorry
what you like to call regular TV? I mean, at
this this standage, it's just regular TV.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
But you can also it's on on demand on direct TV.
Oh that's how I watch the one I watched today.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
I hate on demand? Why because you can't put it in.
You can't list it. You have to specifically look for
something and then watch it.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
Yes, you have to know exactly what you're looking for,
and I can hate that.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
I want there's a new show coming up called like
New York detect Or, like the FBI in New York
or some shit. Yeah, and I went immediately to record it,
and you can't. It's just I'm gonna forget it immediately.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Oh, well, make Stephen remind you listen.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Stephen, can you change Direct TV? Please listen? Give Direct
TV a call.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
You need to start writing some letters. Yeah, okay, so
Real Detective. Well try to watch it any way you
can find out. But the reason I loved this episode
was not only because it was a southern California serial
killer that I'd never heard of, which is pretty fascinating,
But on this episode The Real Detective if you haven't watched,
it basically follows the one detective who solves this crime,

(01:00:37):
and that detective is there talking about themselves in the
twenty years ago or whenever the thing happens.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
It's like doing the storytelling. So it's not like a
dramatic reenactment.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
No, there it's first hand experience of what it was
like for this person to get catch this case, go
through be at all these crime scenes, and eventually thankfully
solve the crime.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
And there are reenactments, but they're good exactly because they
actually hire great actors, because it's not just they don't
just do like reenactments that are silent. There are whole
scenes that they do like seamalang h. Yeah, it's a
really great show.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Okay, So this one is the Riverside County. The name
of him was the Riverside County Prostitute Killer originally, but
I called him the Riverside County serial Killer, and the
detectives named Bob Creed. And he he is, especially as

(01:01:35):
a detective. He is so empathetic and he is so
lovely and kind, and the way he talks about all
of these victims. It's the episode starts with him just
kind of listing all the victims names, like he knows
all of them now. So it's that kind of thing
where you're just watching a person who this was his
life and this he took all of all of these

(01:01:57):
deaths to heart, and and the fact that it was
taking place in his hometown and his home territory and
it's this incredible story.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
So well, that's refreshing because when you said the name
of what it was before the prostitute killer, I immediately
was like, oh, well, then they're not important. So him
naming them immediately makes me think that they're important.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
It's not only that, but the way they present these
murders in on the show Real Detectives, they really.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Play down, if not don't mention the prostitute aspect at all.
So they really are just talking about they found this
victim here, they found this victim here, and when and
when Bob Creed talks about them, he talks about like
he starts out by saying, these were women with families
who loved them, and he talks about the family. They

(01:02:46):
were good families and they loved their daughters. So it's
because all of the in the murder Pedia articles that
I was reading, it's all just prostitute, drug user because
you never know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
The circumstance of their life, you don't. And the killing
fields do that really well when they talk to their
families and sisters. But you know, when I go missing,
is it going to be ex drug addicts?

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
You know? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Yeah, because I I it was a drug addict at
one point, yet I haven't been in twenty you know.
It's like like we did I did a murder when
we were doing the live shows, and one of them
called her a prostitute. But in other places I saw
as a messuse. And it's like did she cross some
lines at her job and they called her a prostitute.
It's just there's so many there's so many nuances around it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
Well, yeah, and when you boil, like in journalism and
this kind of journalism, when you boil people's lives down
to the to their criminal records or the like, the
basic facts of their lives, what are you choosing to
leave in and what and what are you choosing to
bring out? Because there are lots of people who have
been addicted to drugs, whether or not they go to
jail for it, there's lots of people on drugs right now,

(01:03:51):
that if you died right now and they took the
toxicology report, not you, but like anybody in the street,
any man in the streets, that if they die and
they took the toxicology report, and they'd be like, well,
you're filled with well butrin and adderall and did this
and that, cholca max and pot and you and you

(01:04:11):
just had four drinks. So are you a drug user?
And so should your murder matter less? Because of that?
And that's kind of like I was really blown away
because when I was when I was reading these old articles,
it was one story, but the way Real Detective presents
this is so different and it's so modern. And then
this detective on top of it, you love him and

(01:04:33):
you love the work that he's doing because it's just
very personal. So all right, so this is like no,
this guys, the I need you to and the presentation
or this like what I've written up is a combination
of me writing down things from this episode of Real Detective.
But it's also there's an article I found in murder
Pedia that gave me a really good timeline and talked

(01:04:54):
a lot about these victims. And it was written by
a guy named David Lore. His article was called the
Riverside Prostitute Killer. I didn't get a year on it,
but it does seem old because it's definitely from like
the early nineties. So anyway, October thirtieth, nineteen eighty six,
So there's an area I don't know how much you
know Riverside, like the Riverside city or the county.

Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Vague even though I'm from here.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Yeah, it's it's weird because it's it's about an hour
and a half directly south of where we are right now,
and it's never the way.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
We never go there.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
It's halfway between here and San Diego. It's inland Lake
Elson or is the big like this guy, Yeah, that
lake that's nearby. It is like the kind of the
tourist nice area, and that's where this guy lived. But
almost of the murder, the crime scenes are in and
around Riverside, the city itself. So there's apparently an industrial

(01:05:53):
area outside of Riverside called rubb Ado and it's like
apparently smoggy and gross and it's all factor. So on
October thirtieth, nineteen eighty six, there's a man who's collecting
cans that around that area, and he comes upon the
body of a woman who's stuffed into a drainage ditch.

(01:06:13):
She's covered in blood, her clos are ripped to shreds,
and her genitals have been mutilated, so he runs. This
man who discovers this horrible crime scene runs to the
closest factory to get help, and the police identify her
as twenty three year old Michelle Gutierres and she's from
Corpus Christi, Texas, and her autopsy reveals that she suffered

(01:06:38):
severe trauma to anal and vaginal areas. Multiple stab wounds
were discovered on her face, chest, and buttocks, and she
has ligature marks on her neck, suggesting that she'd been
strangled while she was being mutilated.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
So bad news right away.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
So two weeks later, on December eleventh, the body of
twenty four year old Charlotte Jean Palmer is discovered near
Highway seventy four in Romoland, which is twenty five miles
away from the Gutierra's murderer scene, and her body was
so badly decomposed that they couldn't figure out the cause

(01:07:17):
of death, so they weren't even necessarily related. In January
of nineteen eighty seven. So about a month later, the
naked and mutilated body of thirty seven year old Linda
an Artega is found along a dirt road in Lake Elsinore.
She had been dead for at least three days. They
found alcohol and cocaine in her bloodstream.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Investigators later discover that she worked part.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
Time in a fast food restaurant, but she also had
a rapshoot for drugs and sex working. Now the investigators
are starting to see that they have three similar homicides
where the young women are being brutally stabbed to death
and strangled to death. So then four months later, on

(01:08:04):
May second, nineteen eighty seven, Martha bess Young, twenty seven
year old Martha Bess Young is discovered in a ravine
not far from the Ortega murder site. She is fully
naked in a spreadeagal position. She also had a wrap
sheet for sex work and high levels of drugs were

(01:08:24):
found in her body, and the corner determines that she's
been dead for about three weeks and she had died
from a lethal dose of amphetamines while she was being strangled.

Speaker 3 (01:08:37):
So like he injected her with amphetamines while he was
strangled or like at some point.

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
I don't know, just that they're both exists, Like she
has a lethal dose inner system, but she the asphyxiation
is what she actually died from. But she also those
things were happening like at the same time.

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
Got it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
I was picturing it, like like at the exact same time. Yes,
like he shot her up while he's with one hand
on her neck and yeah, which probably didn't happen.

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
No, but the first woman who was found, Michelle Gutierrez,
also had stab wounds, but she lethal stab wounds, but
she died from being strangled. So they do think that
he kills them and attacks them at the same time, right,
I mean, it's like all one frenzy.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
It seems like nice, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
So so then no murders for almost two years, and
then January twenty seventh, nineteen eighty nine, the body of
thirty seven year old Linda may Ruez, who was a
sex known as a sex worker, was discovered on the
beach of Lake Elsinore and her head was buried in
the sand, and the autopsy reveals she has a high

(01:09:53):
blood alcohol level and there were sand found in her
throat and the cause of death is a fixed Then
About six months later, same year, the body of twenty
eight year old Kimberly Little is discovered in Cottonwood Canyon. Also,
she's also known as a sex worker and a drug user,

(01:10:15):
and her autopsy reveals the presence of alcohol and drugs.
The official cause of death is listed as asphyxiation, and
they find on her they finally find fibers and pubic
hares that are not hers, So they finally find some

(01:10:36):
evidence that they can use that they don't know what
to compare it against, but they're saving it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
It's crazy that later that many victims they didn't have
a touch of that even right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
No, I mean not as not so far that's listed
on this article, or that they knew how to lift
at that time. Yeah, maybe because it was pretty early
what year is it, this is in the late eighties,
so yeah, they started in nineteen eighty seven, so they
probably didn't know what could be com like what could
be used as DNA, So even if there's some kind
of saliva or the right, they wouldn't know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
Maybe maybe yeah. So but also they're starting to I
think compare they're starting to keep track of these, so
it's like they know that there they can see what's
standing out on these victims as they go, and so
they're like, okay, we have a pubicare that's not hers,
and like they're they're learning what to look for and

(01:11:31):
what to keep as they go. Okay, So on November eleventh,
same year, a local resident discovers the body bludgeoned and
mulated body of thirty six year old Judy Lynn Angel
near to Mescal Canyon Road, and this is just northwest
of Lake Elsinore. And she also had a rap sheet

(01:11:52):
for sex working and drugs. But she they discovered defensive
wounds in her hands when she's when her autopsy is
being given. She also had several blows to the face
and ultimately she died of having her cranium crushed. So

(01:12:14):
then the next month they find the body of twenty
three year old Christina Leal in Quail Valley. Now she
fully appears, fully closed and not having suffered any serious
abuse or mutilation. She was had a record for sex
work and drugs. And at that crime scene, investigators found

(01:12:39):
tire tracks for the first time, so they made impressions
of those tire tracks, which I.

Speaker 3 (01:12:43):
Found so fascinating that they think to do that. But
to me, that's like one in a million chants of
finding that person. But yeah, I guess it can be
used once they find somebody I think is a suspect.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
But kind of car did they drive at the time exactly?

Speaker 2 (01:12:57):
And when it's serial killing, they know they start finding
taking imprints of tire tracks to compare to the other
places because they know that eventually there's gonna be some
that becomes a consistent impression that they're like, Okay, this
is the this is the this is the tire, maybe
this is the car.

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:13:16):
So so then when when she gets her autopsy, the
corner finds that she had one stab wound to the
heart and they didn't notice it at the beginning because
she she had been stripped and then re dressed by
the killer. Oh so there was no through the shirt,
There wasn't anything. It wasn't a stab through the shirt.
It was underneath I think, so the cops didn't see

(01:13:37):
it like weird right away, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Super weird.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Here's a weirder thing and maybe the weirdest thing of
this of this whole case. When they inspected the victims
genital area, they found the killer had put a light
bulb up.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
Into the woman's and the woman womb. So he's shot
the way up and it was unbroken, and it was
also a very uh, it was a very kind of different.
It was an elongated light bulb.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
It was different. It wasn't just a standard It was
kind of old timey looking. It wasn't it wasn't a
common one.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
For somewhere in something exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
So they now know that he's escalating, and he's becoming more.

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
You know, deviant. He's starting to do weird shit.

Speaker 3 (01:14:33):
That seems like such a big clue that they're almost
lucky to have do. Was she dead or Alie would
not happen? I feel like she must have been dead.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
I think she must have been dead because it took
they said, it must have taken a really long time
for him to be able to put it up there unbroken.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
Yeah, because she would have been fighting, yes, right, Oh
so fuck sake.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
So he is then now the escalation is part of
Part of that them knowing he's escalating is because he's
leaving things behind intentionally and he's degrading them more than
average because because he was, you know, the degradation of
being left you know, often spread eagle, often half naked

(01:15:15):
in ditches in drain it, you know, in like on
these places where he's just saying these people are garbage
with how he's leaving them, but now he's adding to
it even more in a very upsetting way.

Speaker 1 (01:15:28):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
So then on the morning of January eighteenth, nineteen ninety,
so it's actually only a month later, but it's the
next year, investigators get called to a scene east of
the I fifteen in Lake Elsinore. A jogger had found
the half nude body of a woman who is identified
as twenty four year old sex worker Darla Jane Ferguson.

(01:15:53):
She had been strangled so severely that she nearly bid off.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
Her own tongue. I didn't know, that's thing minded neither.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
Investigators find tire tracks at this crime scene make impressions
at this crime scene. A month later, February eighth, nineteen ninety,
farmers working at an orchard in High Groove find the
nude body of thirty five year old Carolynn Miller, also
known as a sex worker and drug addict.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
She had gone missing a month earlier. She had multiple
stab wounds to the chest, and she also had a
wound near her right nipple. They found pubic hares on
this victim that they kept, and this murder is where.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
That episode of Real Detective starts because they basically come
in and they talk about how these murders had been
going on, but they just it was the kind of
thing of like they would have a murder and it
would be a sex worker and they would be like,
oh no, and they were like suspecting that they had

(01:17:04):
a serial killer, but it wasn't until.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
This.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
I think this may have been Bob Creed's like one
of his early.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Like when he got put on the case was at
that point, Uh no, because I think he was on
this task force early, but I guess that the point
of interest was when he got there and he was
looking at the crime scene, he realized that his grandfather
used to own that orchard. Whoa, And so he's starting

(01:17:36):
to go, is this guy fucking with us? Yeah? Like
is this guy doing this on purpose?

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
Because they also there was a half eaten grapefruit that
had been peeled, half eaten and thrown on the victim.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
The fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
So there was like a lot of kind of messaging
in that yeah or that kind of like he was
really freaked out about so obviously I was taking his time.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
He was purposely Yeah, what's the word antagonizing the police?

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
Yeah, that's what that's That's where he started to go, like,
could this guy know? Could this guy have known that
this was my grandfather's Like he's like, we used to
play here when I was a little kid. Yeah, so, uh,
I wish I knew exactly when they put this task
force together. I don't have it, but it basically it was,

(01:18:26):
like I would say, probably after the fifth or sixth body,
they actually put a dedicated task force together to be
like what is going on? But they but they never
find fingerprints at any scene. They know that the bodies
have been taken to those scenes and dumped there that
they're so they can rarely find any evidence. And they've
only found tire prints twice up up until this point.

Speaker 1 (01:18:49):
And no salmon, uh not that, not that I've ever heard.
I feel like they would say, so yes, so yeah,
so the guy's very careful. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:19:01):
So under December twenty first, nineteen ninety, a janitor emptying
the garbage a factory complex on Iowa Avenue discovers the
nude and carefully opposed body of a young woman who
turns out to be twenty seven year old Susan Sternfeld,

(01:19:23):
also local sex worker drug addict. There's no mutilation on
her remains. She died of strangulation. The County Corner eventually
finds out. Next, forty two year old Kathleen Leslie Milne
is discovered on January nineteenth. A motorists is driving by

(01:19:47):
and sees her body alongside a road northwest of Lake Elsinore.
She had been rendered unconscious by several blows to the
head and strangled, but she had been dead last twenty
four hours.

Speaker 3 (01:20:00):
Oh my god, man, I would hate to be the
person who found her.

Speaker 1 (01:20:04):
Yeah, so so horrifying.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
So then a couple months later, April twenty seventh, a
transent stumbles upon the body of twenty four year old
Chari Michelle Payser, a part time made and sex worker.
She'd been left in a flower bed in a Bowling
Alley parking lot. She'd been violated, strangled, posed, and this
is awful. She had a toilet plunger protruding from her vaginant.

(01:20:31):
So this is a person that is intent on degrading,
after murdering, degrading these victims. And there's a couple parts
in this episode of Real Detective where he is Bob
Creed is talking and then he just stops talking and stares,
and then they just cut away to something else. He's
just like, because he's seeing he's remembering these horrible fucking

(01:20:55):
scenes that he had to come upon end process.

Speaker 3 (01:20:58):
Well, what I noticed, too, is that it seems like
he's getting more and more bold with where he leaves
the bodies. Yeah, because he's not putting him in a
drainage ditch where no one will see him put it there.
It's putting in a flower bed in a parking lot
of a like probably busy business at a bowling alley,
bowling alley.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
That's just so bold.

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):
Yes, exactly right, because he's gotten away with it. Now
how many, eight, twelve times, or however many whatever number I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
On, that's fucking with them. Yeah. So now he's like,
I'm smarter than the police. I can get away with this.
I'm doing whatever I want. I can't breathe, okay, So.

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
Now July fourth, nineteen ninety one, picnickers near Railroad Canyon
Road discover the remains of a thirty seven year old
Sherry Anne Latham also has a rap sheet for sex
work and drug use. Her hand was wrapped around nearby branches,
suggesting she was still alive when the killer left her.

Speaker 1 (01:21:53):
Oh uh huh. An autopsy later reveals that she'd been strangled,
and they cat hairs on her corpse. According to her friends,
she did not own a cat. So now the investigators.

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
Are thinking the killer does fuck, so they take those
hairs and they put them aside.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
Kind of monster murders women but also has a cat.
I mean it kind of goes to show how great
cats are. They love you no matter what, no matter
what kind of monster you are. Monsters love them no
matter what.

Speaker 2 (01:22:27):
Yeah, okay, So they get their first major lead on
August fifteenth, nineteen ninety one, because a man driving a
gray van picks up a sex worker near the University
of California Riverside, and she told investigators that everything was
fine at first. Then he becomes angry and starts assaulting her,
and she manages to jump out of his van and

(01:22:47):
run down the street. Good girl, So he leaves, but
then he stops in a nearby corner and he picks
up her friend, twenty three year old Kelly Hammond. So
this is what's interesting. This is this I'm reading from

(01:23:08):
a part of that article. But in the episode of
Real Detective, when they come upon this body, Bob Creed
lifts up the you know, the tarp that's over her
whatever it's covering her, and he goes, I know this girl.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
No, she lives in his neighborhood. Oh, and he watched
her and her mom walk by his house a couple
times a day, so he knows her. And that's again
where he's like, this guy's fucking with me. Yeah, this
guy knows that I'm working on this case. He knows
these people. Well, I would think this is someone I know.
This is someone who knows me right well. The other

(01:23:48):
thing too, it's smart of you to think.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
The other thing too, is in this episode of Real Detective,
they do not mention that that either of these women
are prostitutes at all, sex sex or sorry at all,
which I think is really interesting because they basically the
story comes in as this girl her, the girl that
got away. Her name is Ali white Cloud, and she

(01:24:12):
comes in and says, we are at a bar. This
is how they and I wonder if it's because that's
how either she wanted it presented, or that they were
trying to erase the stigma of.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
Sex corkin, but it's Allie.

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
Ali white Cloud comes in and says, my friend and
I were at a bar and we met this guy
and she wanted to go home with him. I didn't
want to. He offered both of us a ride. I said,
don't go with him, and she did. And so she
goes to the police and gives a full description and
describes the van. So I don't whatever version of this

(01:24:46):
is the truth or whatever, I think it's interesting matter
though it doesn't matter, But I also think it's interesting,
and I like the fact that real detective just presents
it as it's a girl that almost got pulled into
a van and then came and spoke for her friend
to the police with respect.

Speaker 1 (01:25:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
Yeah, So they give they do an APB with the
description of this guy and he's the creepiest look it's
the creepiest looking picture because he's wearing like sunglasses, and.

Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
We have a photograph or like a drawing. It's a drawing,
it's a police sketch.

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):
And the van he's driving is nineteen eighty nine Mitsubishi van,
which is one of the weirdest looking vans.

Speaker 1 (01:25:29):
It's got that flat front. Is that the one? Yes?
Like it?

Speaker 2 (01:25:32):
Yes, Like when you're in the front seat wherever you park,
it's like you're right there.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
I totally know that one. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
And it has a weird almost like a nautical window
in the back, like a little round window.

Speaker 1 (01:25:44):
Yeh, like a creepy van window. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:46):
So okay, So now they have way more information about
this guy than they've had for since nineteen eighty six.

Speaker 1 (01:25:54):
So it's a huge it's a huge lead. They put
out the APB, and so now the cops are looking
for that van. Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:26:06):
They also say, is there anything else you can remember?
And she says that when he opened up the back,
she remembers seeing a red sleeping bag. And at most
of these crime scenes they found animal hair which turned
out to be a tan cat tan cat hair at

(01:26:28):
every scene, and red nylon fibers which they linked to
and match to the kind of nylon fibers that they
find on sleeping bags.

Speaker 1 (01:26:38):
What a crazy thing.

Speaker 3 (01:26:39):
I feel like, there's so many people and this is
what he talks about, and someone knows something where it's
like that is one detail that you wouldn't why would
you bother mentioning that but that is actually really important
to the case.

Speaker 1 (01:26:51):
So that's really interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:26:52):
I thought you were going to say that that she
said she saw a cat in his vana.

Speaker 1 (01:26:57):
Well it's close. It's the other the other thing.

Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
But but that's when in you know, they presented in
the real detective show, like when she's giving all that information,
when she says that thing about a red sleeping bag,
He's just like, dang, this is the guy.

Speaker 1 (01:27:11):
I love it. So they put out all that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:14):
Information and uh oh, so they the basically from from
all of the information and the victims that they've had
so far, the task force knows this that all the
victims are found raped, stabbed, asphyxiated.

Speaker 1 (01:27:31):
Nude posed.

Speaker 2 (01:27:32):
They all have ligature marks on their wrists, angles, and neck.
They have one set of shoe impressions. So they know
that he carries them to the scene dead and leaves
them there, and that he works alone. They say that
if he's married, his wife would work nights because then
he can just do Clearly, he can do whatever he

(01:27:53):
wants at night and he's not being questioned about it
or no one's suspicious of him. They never find finger
printed any of the scenes, but they consistently find cat hair,
and they consistently find those red nylon fibers. Would be
more exciting if I had said that before that the
thing I just said than anyhow, So on October thirtieth,

(01:28:14):
nineteen ninety one, they see a man is driving along
Summer Hilt Drive and he sees what he thinks.

Speaker 1 (01:28:23):
Is a mannequin. I'm a mannequin, you guy, ever a
fucking mannequin. He goes up and finds that it's the
dead body of thirty five year old Delilah Zamoral Wallace,
mother of five, also known sex worker and drug addict.
She's also Her cause of death is asphyxiation. Then, two

(01:28:45):
days before Christmas, Eleanor Ojeeda Kassarus's body is found near
Victoria Avenue, which is just down the street from the
Riverside Police station.

Speaker 2 (01:28:58):
She's thirty nine years old. She's been strayed and her
right breast is missing. She was also had a wrap
sheet for sex work and drugs, and the cops are
positive that he placed her there too close to the
police station took up with them. So the very last
victim is thirty one year old Katherine McDonald. She's found

(01:29:21):
raped and murdered in a field by a construction worker.
There they find a set of tire tracks and they
find footprints that match a pro wing tennis shoe. They
know now he's rushing, he's escalating because this is the
sloppiest he's ever been.

Speaker 1 (01:29:41):
So they process all of that.

Speaker 2 (01:29:43):
Then they go to make a next known next of kin,
you know, they go to tell notification for the next skin.
They go to her house. They find the front door
open and the house is dark. They walk through, the
house is drawn, and they finally find Catherine's three year
old daughter, who's been by herself since her mother disappeared

(01:30:07):
the night before, hiding downstairs. So sad, and it's the
saddest part of the whole episode, this little girl who
was just hiding alone in a house because her mom
didn't come back. Her mom went, took the garbage out
and disappeared.

Speaker 1 (01:30:21):
Oh so she didn't even see anything. She's just like
her mom walked outside and never came back inside at night. Horrifine. Okay,
so she was snatched, Yes she was, and which he
hadn't done that before. It was out in front of
her own house. So god, they have all together.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
They had found five different types of tire prints at
these crime scenes. So so Bob Creed decides he asked
the guide to check, is there one type of van
that could use all five of those.

Speaker 1 (01:30:58):
Types of tires?

Speaker 2 (01:30:59):
And one type of van comes back, and it's a
nineteen eighty nine Mintsubishi and it's this type of van.

Speaker 1 (01:31:07):
It's so weird looking. So on the night of January ninth,
nineteen ninety two, Officer Frank Orda is patrolling University Avenue,
which is where a lot of sex workers were known
to walk, and he sees that exact type of van,
so he follows it. Can you imagine seeing that, Yeah,
that's there.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
It is that the fuck and it has expired tags,
and so he pulls it over and he talks to
the driver a little bit. He asks the driver to
open up the back of the van. The driver says, sure,
no problem. He opens it up. There's a red sleeping
bag there, and the officer places him under arrest. Now
they bring him into the station and somebody immediately starts

(01:31:49):
questioning him.

Speaker 1 (01:31:50):
They don't wait.

Speaker 2 (01:31:51):
For Bob Creed, who is the head of this task
force for like five fucking years. They don't wait for
him to come down to question him just whoever was there.
I don't know exactly how it happened. So the guy
they arrest immediately is like, I want a lawyer. I'm
not saying anything, son of man. So Bob Creed doesn't
even get to question him. Oh but here's what they

(01:32:11):
end up finding out that the guy the driver of
this van is a man named Bill suff. He was
born August twentieth, nineteen fifty, in Torrance, California. According to
his high school classmates, he was friendly, a skillful musician,
and he graduated eighty seventh in a class of one
hundred and forty four. So not a you know, sounds

(01:32:32):
like a C minus student. His brothers were very troubled.
One of them was a drug addict, the other was
a pedophile. Oo Suff ended up living in Texas, and
there in nineteen seventy four, when he's twenty four years old,
he and his former wife were arrested and later convicted

(01:32:54):
for the beating death of their two year old daughter.

Speaker 1 (01:32:57):
Are youth fucking kidding me? There?

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
Sentenced to seventy years in prison, but he was paroled
after serving ten years. Why no, his wife served twenty months,
but her conviision was overturned when it was found that
he was fully responsible for the beating death of a
two year old child.

Speaker 3 (01:33:16):
Can you imagine not only having your child beat to
death by your husband, but then getting sent to being
held responsible and sent like she's mourning in the most
painful way, and then.

Speaker 1 (01:33:28):
She goes to jail. And in jail, you hurt your
own kid.

Speaker 2 (01:33:32):
If you're in jail for hurting your own kid, you're
like a pedophile in man's jail.

Speaker 1 (01:33:37):
Jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:33:38):
I mean they are like tortured. And so, yeah, she didn't.
She's spent over a year in prison as a baby killer.
So when Bill suff is paroled, he goes back to
southern California and gets out of Texas and he then
gets a job. He's now forty one years old. He

(01:33:59):
gets a jo as a stock clerk, and he is
known to be a writer of books. He likes to
drive fancy cars. He does community service work. He also
likes to impersonate police officers.

Speaker 1 (01:34:12):
Of course he does.

Speaker 2 (01:34:14):
His neighbors described him as a friendly nerd who was
always doing things to help people.

Speaker 1 (01:34:19):
What the fuck?

Speaker 2 (01:34:20):
Yeah, So basically, now Bob Creed is scrambling to find
evidence they can hold him on because they finally have
him in custody, but you know he's going to get
he's going to get out, and he's and more women
are going to die. So they look into his background.
They find out that he works for Riverside County Supply

(01:34:42):
So he is a clerk at the supply company that
supplies desks and chairs for the Riverside Police Department. So
when they were putting together the task force and building
the task force, every time they would order a desk
or some chairs or a chalkboard, well, Bill Souff was

(01:35:05):
the guy that would come and deliver it straight into
the room where they were investigating his serial murders.

Speaker 1 (01:35:15):
I bet he enjoyed that so much.

Speaker 2 (01:35:17):
He not only enjoyed it, he knew exactly what they
were doing. So the first time they knew that they
had tire imprints, he changed the tires on his van
every time he would go in there because they were constantly.
At one point, they said some officers working on the
case asked him if they could use his phone and

(01:35:38):
made a phone call on his phone trying to track
something down for the murders he was committing. So he
was just this neutral face in the background that they
saw as like, oh, that's the delivery guy, that's the
clerk guy. But meanwhile, he was all eyes and ears
every time he was in that room. He was photo

(01:35:58):
looking at everything, was memorizing all of it. He knew
exactly what they were doing, and he knew who they were.

Speaker 1 (01:36:04):
Which is weird that he then didn't get rid of
the red sleeping bag.

Speaker 2 (01:36:07):
Kind of right, that must not have been a prominent
thing up on the board. But it's so amazing because
they in real Detective, they set it in really perfectly
where he's in the bat when like the first time
they have the task force meeting, Bob Creed clears the
room and then starts telling everybody blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (01:36:24):
Well, Bill stuff is one of the people he asked
to leave the room.

Speaker 2 (01:36:27):
So he's in there like he's working side by side
with an like near the police. So Bob Creed gets
a search warrant for Bill Seff's house and when he
arrives there, he's surprised to meet Bill Souff's eighteen year
old white Oh god, so this is where it all

(01:36:50):
comes together. She tells the detective she works nights. He's
standing in their kitchen. She offers to make coffee. She's like,
I need coffee because I'm so tired because I was
up all night.

Speaker 1 (01:37:00):
He's like, oh, you work nights. A tan cat runs
through the room.

Speaker 2 (01:37:05):
He looks over and sees a pair of prowing tennis
shoes over in the corner where all the shoes are
by the back door. So when he's looking out the window,
he sees a truck bed that's filled with tires, and
he's like, what's up with the tires And she's like, oh,
he's always out there changing the tires on that van.
So he was changing the tires. Anytime he would see

(01:37:26):
them get a tire imprint, he would change the tires
off the van. Then the kicker is he looks at
the lamp that's hanging over the kitchen table, tips it
up and sees it's exactly the same kind of light
bulb that was left inside his victim, and he's like,
this is we're here. So he essentially they arrest him,

(01:37:50):
they get him. He has tried and convicted for twelve
counts of first degree murder and one count of attempted murder.
The jury deliberated for ten minutes. Oh my God, and
they came back. They gave him the death penalty.

Speaker 1 (01:38:01):
He's he's still on death row in San Bentin to
this day, and the police believe he is responsible for
twenty two murders, if not more in Riverside County.

Speaker 3 (01:38:12):
I wonder what, you know, he was gone for those
two years. I wonder where he went and what happened. Yeah,
time you mean where there was no bodies found? Yeah, yeah,
or yeah there was no viruceron for two years.

Speaker 1 (01:38:22):
Yeah, because that's a long time, and he usually it
just goes faster and faster. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
And Bob Creed, who I have to say, is just
like one of those I feel like detectives are those
They're like all the good cops become detectives. It's like
the ones that are on the street that are good
at it and they're smart and gay hair. Yeah, and
they get promoted and they become detectives. And he so
clearly was one of those people that like treated these

(01:38:48):
women like his neighbors and his friends. And he when
he talks about going to talk to Kelly Hammond's mother,
it's like a big part of that episode where he's like,
we know these people, we have to tell them. We
have to now change their life for the worst by
us being there and being like, your daughter's dead. He eventually,
Detective Bob Creed eventually became the head of Major Crimes,

(01:39:09):
the major Crimes unit in Riverside. Yeah, and that's the
Riverside serial killer.

Speaker 1 (01:39:17):
Wow, I was fucking crazy and I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (01:39:22):
Good job, dude, Thanks, I know I had no idea either,
Like Riverside is close by, Yeah, and I've never heard.

Speaker 3 (01:39:28):
Of that guy either. It's so funny, like the way
you find these murders. Now, I just put in the
weirdest searches and you still don't know anything.

Speaker 2 (01:39:37):
I know what's going on. Also, I do find it
fascinating like that they know almost nothing about this guy's childhood,
which I would love to know because obviously it was
insanely fucked up. If his two brothers are insanely fucked
up and he is the worst of all of them,
Migro would love to know what kind of evil and
insane parents they had and what that situation was. But

(01:40:01):
I really love that show for how much it really shows.
It's like this side that you never get to hear,
which is these detectives and like the experience that they
go through and the years sometimes that they spend trying
to find these killers. It's just it's so insane. There's
there's the one on the killer that you did the guy.

Speaker 1 (01:40:20):
Oh yeah, Ben Mendelssohn Uh no, his last name is
Ben something. Oh uh child bar Jonah, Yes, yes, yes,
it wasn't even what I was saying, and you knew
what I was saying. I'm so shocked that I knew that.

Speaker 3 (01:40:35):
And what I like about that show too, is that it, uh,
it gives you little glimpses into the PTSD that you
know they fucking have, and so they're not trying to
be like, this is what happened.

Speaker 1 (01:40:44):
It's like, are you the one I the one I did?
He starts crying. Yes. No, they suffer terribly.

Speaker 2 (01:40:50):
I mean Jesus like that guy having to it was
like a child killer that had multiple victims. Yeah, and
every story was horrible, and and that one is especially
great because the way he he just the way he
eventually finds him is he starts walking the path that
those children were taking to school and he finds Barjonas

(01:41:12):
standing in a security guard outfit at the end of
one of those alleys.

Speaker 3 (01:41:15):
This is why you make them move their finger from
the photo. That's right, that's why if I can do it,
that's exactly right. If someone knocks on your door, if
you get pulled over and they're holding up a badge,
you fucking call that number into the police department and
make sure.

Speaker 1 (01:41:29):
It's real before you.

Speaker 3 (01:41:31):
Yeah, I guess if you're on a rural area, if
you're alone in the.

Speaker 1 (01:41:35):
House, now you're finding reasons to say rural. God, damn it,
I am. You're right rural. You can say farmland. You're
in farmland, out in the country, out in the country.
Do not you don't have to. You don't have to.

Speaker 2 (01:41:50):
Well, you get to check first, it's your right. And like,
I'll tell you what. Those FBI agents flip that. The
one guy flipped open his quiet friend behind him. I
was like, what are you doing? It kind of looked
like they were coming for us. Take it away a
little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:42:05):
But the you don't look at the ID when someone
flips a thing like that at you. You look at
the badge.

Speaker 2 (01:42:11):
You look at the thing where you're like, oh, this
is a real cop, and you get all caught up
in the kind of like the gold badge part.

Speaker 1 (01:42:17):
I wonder if you're allowed to say, hand me that,
and I want to look at it. What's your name,
what's your this, what's your that? Well, a real cop
would give it to you. Yeah, what would they have
to lose? Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:42:27):
I mean they would want you to believe they were
a cop. It's why they're showing it to you.

Speaker 1 (01:42:32):
Listen, hey, be cautious instead of everyone listening is like
we are. Yeah, you've already taught us that. We know
we did that before. Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:42:44):
That's all in this podcast is just warning you and
scaring you and giving you anxiety. It's not telling you
how to get rid of your anxiety.

Speaker 1 (01:42:55):
Okay, we're back, Karen. Are there any updates there are?

Speaker 2 (01:42:59):
This is such a obviously another horrible moment in time,
so this correction is awful as well. When Seff murdered
his daughter, I said that she was two years old.
She was actually two months old.

Speaker 1 (01:43:12):
Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2 (01:43:13):
Also in twenty twenty four, investigators linked Bill suff to
the nineteen eighty six cold case killing of a nineteen
year old southern California woman named Kathy Small. They did
that using DNA from Kathy's clothing and the rape kit
that was collected after her murder, and when detectives interviewed
stuff about the DNA match, he confessed he remains on
death row. He's seventy five years old.

Speaker 1 (01:43:35):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:43:35):
Yeah, all right, well this was such a dark episode. Yeah,
let's go back and hear what we had to say
about our good things of the week way back in
twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (01:43:47):
What's a positive thing from this week? I fucking totally
knew it at some point and I forgot it. What's yours?

Speaker 2 (01:43:56):
I would just say that this my this past birthday
was like one of the best birthdays I've ever had,
because I'm at the age now where like I honestly
don't care about birthdays. So the last couple have been
super low key, if not totally doing nothing.

Speaker 3 (01:44:12):
You didn't even fucking we were recording that day and
you didn't tell me.

Speaker 1 (01:44:15):
I know, I mean I didn't remember, well, but why
would you. I mean that you should have told me,
but you didn't care, So you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:44:22):
Yeah, But but that was in my mind. I was like,
it doesn't matter and I don't care. But it's actually
not true because you, well, first of all, so many
people because of your tweet responded to the lovely tweet
you sent to me about my birthday. But there were
just so many nice things, and not just people the
listen of the podcast, but then like my actual friends

(01:44:44):
knew and said lovely things. And it's like when you
actually give people a chance to do that, if they
want to them, they do and it's really nice.

Speaker 1 (01:44:53):
And it makes them feel good too.

Speaker 2 (01:44:55):
Yeah, exactly, It's just it was just lovely and we
had that fun dinner and watching d Yeah, it was
so nice, Like what if I just threw up.

Speaker 1 (01:45:06):
For no reason.

Speaker 2 (01:45:07):
It was just like a really lovely kind of redefining
birthday experience.

Speaker 1 (01:45:13):
I love that. Yeah, it was nice. Happy birthday, Thanks congratulations,
Thanks so much. Way to go.

Speaker 3 (01:45:20):
Something I love or I'm happy about is when Stephen
Baby sits the cats when we go out of town.
It just makes me so happy because I know they
love him and they like hanging out with him.

Speaker 1 (01:45:30):
And I know this because Stephen.

Speaker 3 (01:45:33):
The first couple of days of us being gone, Stephen
Baby's out them and sent me photos constantly and I
could tell they were happy and they don't run away
when he comes in. And then my dad was going
to stay at our place for the rest of the weekend,
and so Stephen left, and when my dad, who doesn't
like cats, came in the door, he said, oh, well,
this came out at first and then ran away immediately,
And I think he thought my dad was Stephen and

(01:45:55):
got excited because the guy who gives them all the
cookies was there, and then realized it was my dad
right away.

Speaker 1 (01:46:02):
So thanks Stephen. It means a lot to me that
to have someone there who I really loves my cats.

Speaker 4 (01:46:08):
Yeah, I mean, I just have the best time. And
like I've always told you that, like I'll come over here.
You're always like you and Vince always like come do
some work, hang out for a while, and then I
end up just hanging out.

Speaker 1 (01:46:18):
With the cat, get anything done.

Speaker 4 (01:46:20):
It's just pictures of Elvis, good pets. Yeah, I love it,
have a good time.

Speaker 3 (01:46:25):
You have my Instagram password for the cats too, so
I'm like, fucking go for it. It's great, thank you,
So thanks for doing that. And yes I pay him,
don't worry, I'm not. You get paid and loving and
like's being nice to you. Yeah, okay, we're back. Steven
no longer watches my animals when I'm gone. I'm sorry

(01:46:47):
to say that. We couldn't let him anymore because he
worked for us. So my friend's been doing it since
in my friend Crystal. So Stephen just gets pictures of
the animals.

Speaker 2 (01:46:56):
That's right, Sorry, Steven, all right, So this so it
was originally called never a Mannequin.

Speaker 1 (01:47:02):
Which is a hard one to top.

Speaker 3 (01:47:04):
Yeah, we could call it what do girls like? Combining
true crime and zac Efron? Is what you meant by that?

Speaker 1 (01:47:11):
And you are not wrong? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:47:12):
Or flip a coin to flip a coin, which was
Georgia talking about our lack of professionalism compared to say
the other investigative podcasts that we are fans.

Speaker 1 (01:47:23):
Of and not them. Yeah, and never happened, never tried to.
Or we could call it reasons to say rural. Oh
I hate that words so much. There's always a reason
to say it. Yeah, get in there. All right.

Speaker 3 (01:47:34):
Well, thank you guys for listening to rewind. Let's go
back in time and we'll let Elvis say goodbye to
you from twenty seventeen. You guys, thanks for listening. Yes,
we really appreciate it, and you guys are this is
the best. I can't this is the best.

Speaker 1 (01:47:51):
It's pretty nice. It is. Yeah, I like it all right. Well,
you guys stay sexy and don't get murdered. Elvis, you
want a cookie, Okay, Bye,

All Episodes

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 69: Never A Mannequin

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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