Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 72: Steven It Out - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Nay, Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Every Wednesday, we recap our old episodes with all new commentary,
updates and insights, and you're welcome to listen.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Today we're recapping episode seventy two, which we named Stephen
It Out.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
This episode came out on June eight, twenty seventeen, which
is also George's birthday.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
Burday I was turning thirty seven. Let's listen to the
intro of episode seventy two.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Welcome to My Favorite Murder.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
That's Karen Kilgara, that's Georgia Heartstack.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
And here we are looking at Stephen Ray Morris as
if to say.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Hey, how what's up with Yeah, that's what the podcast
is all about.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Two people trying to talk at the same time the same.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Thing words thing. Yeah, I can't, I can't, I can't either.
The finger does help either. We're bad at this podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
I'm bad at improv, I'm bad at what other people want.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
We were bad at this podcast is because we couldn't
say the same things at the exact same time. Yeah,
that's what makes you bad at podcast. And every article
they're like, they're okay, but they can't say the same word,
the same so time, oh shit, time another if you
listen to episodes, what is the seventy what is this
student seventy two? I know, Stephen, how do you know?

(01:51):
How do you know that?

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Because I'm in the in the email, I'm the the
info email.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
I don't check that. I know. I get over It's
funny how you and I both just get overwhelmed at
different things, and so we do the thing that we're
not overwhelmed by and the other person just like doesn't
pay attention to do it. That's right. Like you are
you're the description person and the naming of the podcast person,
and who gets back when people are like, hey, do
you want this podcast to be posted? And I'm like, no,
I can't.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
I can't do it. I don't want to be in this.
And then you're the march person. You're the magazine person. Well,
magazine you get us all the magazine subscriptions that we want,
better homes and gardens, sunset, popular mechanics.

Speaker 3 (02:32):
If that were my job for this podcast, so I
would be sad.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
You would be sad to get magazines.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
Here. I got you a copy of from four months
ago of Psychology Today. It's right here. Thank you. Ten
months ago, I kind of have been sleeping on the job.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
That's so nice of you. Well, I guess I'll read
it now, would you?

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Okay, Stephen, can you edit this out? Okay?

Speaker 2 (02:52):
And we're back and welcome Karen. How is psychology today time? I? Oh, oh,
I thought you met. We're back starting over? Oh?

Speaker 3 (03:01):
Hell no, we never start over.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
God, that's a good magazine, just filled with advice.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
It's actually really fucking good. Mind, it's good.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
You're like, don't be sarcastic about so illowed you today,
even for one moment. Talk to me though, Dare you
talking about my magazine that way?

Speaker 3 (03:17):
I got my mom A's subscription to that one. You're
being like, listen, can you get your fucking shit together?
Howbout you read this subtlety? Did she do it? Yeah,
she loved it. I don't think she understood. I don't
think she is self aware enough to understand the messaging
that it was pointed. Sure, although she did text me.
We got in a fight like a week ago, and

(03:37):
I was pissed off at her, and I tweeted something
like the hardest chob in the world is raising your mother?
Thinking that knowing that she doesn't read Twitter. She's not
on Twitter. My dad wrote back, you're telling me. I
was like, you know, Marty, Marty. But then when we
were making up, like a couple days later, she wrote,

(03:58):
and I know how hard it is to raise your mother.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
And I was like, oh, delete. Do you think Marty
threw it in her face?

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Now? I think she saw it? You think she checks now?

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (04:09):
Shit? Yeah. But I can't imagine she listened to this podcast.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well if she does, Hey, Janet, Jana, what's up?

Speaker 3 (04:16):
Paray? Best friend?

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Remember when we partied in Chicago together. We had a
good time. Where were we shuago, No, we were to
Chicago twenty sixteen. It was Christmas.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
I'm sure we've talked about this on this podcast, but
one of my favorite things that's ever happened to me
is the night before our show we got in Chicago.
In Chicago, twenty sixteen, December, Christmas time got it. I'm there,
my sister, Adrian, and Audrey. The four of us went

(04:52):
out to try to eat something, but it was kind
of late at night, so nothing around, and it was
fucking freezing.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
It was like fifty degrees. It was in windy, so
everyone shut up from everywhere else. Yeah, it's Wendy fifty.
There's nothing.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
I'm from Alaska.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
We don't care. No, there was wind everywhere. Listen, I'm
on the north Pole.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
That's nothing.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
It's in narwhal.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
One.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
The other guy's like, what a dick? The other narwal
come and get a cartoon of a normal saying that,
and another going like what a dick?

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Shut up you dick, bye, mister Norwal. I'm completely ripping
that off from ELF. Okay, but oh I didn't know it. Yeah,
stick your sources. We go into a Walgreens and we
all buy hats. That's how cold it is. We're California girls.
We had no idea our layers weren't going to work.
So we start walking just trying to find anywhere to eat,

(05:40):
and we find we walk in. We walk in, it's freezing,
and we're like basically fighting the elements. And finally we're
on a corner and I turned to this girl that's
standing there stress on the corner, and I was like, Hey,
do you know any like even a diner anywhere, at a
restaurant that's open around here? And this girl, she was
like in her probably mid twenties, maybe you get a
little older.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
No, maybe a little older.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
No, I just need for this to come out of
her mouth. She goes, I don't know, but you know
what you can do? You could google it. But she
wasn't being sarcastic, like that's something my sister would say
to me with so dripping with sarcasm, where I'd be like, oh,
you really got me. But this girl thought she was
giving us great advice. She was like, oh, oh, but

(06:26):
you know what you could do? You could google it.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
I try to google.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
I was like, oh my god, you're so right.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
Have you ever have you ever said that to someone
in in a sarcastic way where it's like someone will
be like, you're like, here's my address to get to
my house, like what's the cross street? And then you're like,
I don't know, let me google it, and then you
google it and tell them no, I've you ever done
that that specific exchange.

Speaker 4 (06:46):
It's mean no, never mind, you're saying reverse it and
be sarcastic.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
I get you, Yes, I've never done it. I'm positive. Well,
I mean like, that's just saying have you been a
bitch in this certain way? Absolutely be a bitch.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Have you done it. Uh huh, Yeah, that was you
saying a hot of me just now.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah. No, even that was bitchy anywhere on that bitch
color wheel. I've been there to times twenty.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
I mean it's a beautiful rainbow. I like it. There's
subtleties or shades, yeah, I mean oftentimes it's necessary, like
the way I answered the girl who sincerely told me
to google a restaurant and I was.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Like thank you in a way where she's like, you're welcome.
I walked away thinking she'd made a new friend, where
I was like, I just tried to stab you with
my words. But okay, her brain was frozen. It was
really cold. Her brain was frozen. She was probably shit face,
shit face. I'm just really good at covering it up. Oh, any,
do you have any actual business?

Speaker 3 (07:44):
No. I met a couple of murderingos at Ryan Adams
show over the weekend that were really nice, cool that
weren't like that were really cool cool, shook hands like
business people.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Nice, thank you, I'm in Oh did you meet the
executive of GM.

Speaker 4 (08:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (08:00):
We shook hand and I strong form handshake. Had a
glass of really expensive whiskey. I don't know what I
would say the name of it. If I knew it,
an expensive glass of whiskey.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Was called I don't know, McClellan's one hundred and eight, mcmoney's, mcmoney's.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
Do you have any business? Yes, Okay.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
There's a woman in Australia, a murderino who went on
to a game show no Americans ever heard of, which
makes this difficult because this doesn't stick.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
If somebody had texted us and.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Said a murderino was on Jeopardy, right, we'd all have
shut our pants and freaked out.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
But everyone in Australia is like shutting their pants and
freaking out.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
And they're like a murder veino who's on the chase.
That's my accent.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
What's it called the chase?

Speaker 2 (08:42):
The chase? It's called the chase, and I have it
right here. What's her name again, Natalie Krugg. Okay, this
is Natalie Kradele. She's a contestant on the chase.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
You Natalie Krug Listen, murderinos, if you want to get
above someone, beat this. I don't know. I'm kidding.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
I don't care your personal models, stay safety and don't
get murdered.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
So where's the from It's past.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Favorite murder murder. It's two very funny ladies in California
and talk about the true crime nuts and now they
just chat about it and it's the race.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
It's one different show.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yay, Stephanie. I mean that is so fucking surreal. I
can't believe it. Don't get murdered, murdered? How'd she say,
don't get madden me and then everyone else, you know,
stay sixty, don't get madded. It's so cool, that's amazing,
it's so wild. Thank you so much, Natalie crap I

(09:55):
called her, Stephanie, did you yeah?

Speaker 2 (09:58):
I up?

Speaker 3 (09:59):
Thanks Natalie. It's so crazy. We love our fans. Stephanie, Stephanie,
you mean the world to me, Stephanie. No one's not.
Can you give me a clean Natalie and I can.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
Just okay, Natalie Notalie. Do pee wee Herman from herman,
mister Herman.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
I do the thing, do the do the thing. Oh yeah.
Whenever there's someone talks about corn, I always say, can
you say May's and then Karen fucking blows it up by.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
Saying, this is Paco and his wife. I'm na's that one's.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
No basement in the Alamo either one. But the first
one is better because it's like it's really obscure, you
know what I mean, Like the first time I said.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
It, we are yes, we're quoting Pee Wee's Big Adventure.
And the first time I did it, the delight on
Georgia's face that I also knew a line from Pee's
Big Adventure to the like to no where it went
in the scene was you were thrilled, but everyone.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
Like everyone knows the line. I was saying, everyone knows
a thing in the Alamo. But then you took this
obscure line and said it perfectly to something I've been
saying forever, which is can you is it? Can you say?

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Mays?

Speaker 3 (11:18):
And then I was just like what I was like,
I was being pushed in like a shopping car, and
all of a sudden, you know, just like this was
so cool.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Well, and also I think I explained this to you.
But my friend Jennifer Gearing and I who was my
lifelong friend, I haven't seen her forever because she lives
in DC. I'm sure she doesn't listen to this, but
by Jen, I love you if she does.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
But we grew up together.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
Our families were friends or our parents would hang out
together and like get together. And then Jennifer and I
were just the two youngest, so we would pair off
and go have fun. But she's the greatest. Like we
saw Rada's Last Ark in the Theater together, like all
of my all of those major moments of childhood I
had with Jennifer Gearing. And of course we saw Hughey's

(12:01):
a Big Adventure in the theater together. And so we
just spoken movie quotes constantly, so we would just when
we were bored or there was nothing else happening. Got kids.
This is before social media. What you did was just
say movie quotes back and forth to each other like lunatics.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
That's how my brother and I have communicated, Like we
hated each other, and then the Simpsons have started happening
and married with children, and then like since then, he
and I've never had a conversation that isn't a quote
from one of those two like we generated. Yeah, yeah,
we just can't do that. We have like a secret handshake. Yeah,
it's that's from groups of family therapy though, but we

(12:36):
have this. Oh that's real.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
I thought you meant the Simpsons quotes were the This
secret handshake is from when we had to go to
family therapy. Wow. Yeah, wow it actually yeah, okay, it
was good.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
It was great because we made a secret handshake and
then we hated the therapist together and everything was fine.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
That's good. Yeah, and then you have like comedy bonded.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah good, speek so good. What were we talking about?

Speaker 2 (13:02):
We're talking about Natalie Murder Madnick mid it it's a sixty,
don't get mad it there it is. Hey, technically it's
my birthday today, Georgia. Not until Thursday. But when when
people hear it?

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Yeah, ha day, yes podcasters birth No, thank you? Thank
you Elvis is lady Elvis?

Speaker 2 (13:31):
What that was my best version? Thank you guys, Happy birthday.
What's your what's your birthday? Resolution for the coming year
for you as you're in this new.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
Age, live it, love it, learn it right, learn to levitate.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Fuck you're on fire there it is.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
What if they did all of those things.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
That would be such a waste for a podcast. I'll
be like you, guys, I swear to God, she's levitating
right now.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
I promise that's all our business, right, and then.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Some and then some actually, and it was none of
your business.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
This was the none of your business corner. So should
we talk about murder? Are there any shows we didn't watch?

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Oh, i'll tell you what, tell me what? What's I
have done quite a bit of be binge wo as
my hair was getting greasy and I have to go
to the store with my split p Anderson's hat on.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
Hell yeah, girl, thanks, I love that little thanks. That's
my little fake thanks. I have four pillows and you
have one. Yeah? Thanks?

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Wait was I telling you?

Speaker 3 (14:47):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Okay, So I was digging deep on Netflix because I mean,
God bless all of you for still making suggestions and
tweeting suggestions at me. But there's people who are tweeting
things like have you seen Luther girl? The girl that
tweeted at me? Have you seen Luthor.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
Girl? Yes?

Speaker 2 (15:08):
Like, yes, I've seen fucking Luth. I haven't You've never
seen Luthor?

Speaker 3 (15:12):
Huh huh. Oh shit, I've seen a lot of stuff.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
I really, do you care for Idris elbatt All?

Speaker 3 (15:18):
Yes, of course I care for him deeply.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Okay, then you need to get into that. It's an amazing,
amazing thing. Well, so I was trying to go a
little more obscure. And there is a show called Murder
Book that I have.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
Oh, I like that one. It's so good. Yeah, it's
the one guy right that's on it. Yeah, yeah, No,
it's not a murder book. Is what they call a
thing about the case? Exactly right. Yes, so it's almost
kind of a cold case.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Thing, but they just call it something different because it
ends up being about cold cases because they go back
to the murder.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
I love the opening sequence of that. Isn't it creepy?

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yes? You know why. I think it's creepy because I
think it's models. It's all those files.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
If you're listening, please watch this show.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
So it's very well done and it tells real good
stories or true crimes, cold cases, whatever. But it's just
produced really well and they have a lot of the
people who really work the case.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
It reminds me of the detective one that we were
talking about on Netflix, but real detectives didn't. Weren't you
watching one about the occult that I tried to watch
for three minutes and you couldn't get into it? You
know why?

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Okay, that's a cult crime, and I think it's because
it's produced. I think a French company produces it because
they have a lot of French talking heads that then
are dubbed over so you see their mouths moving, but
then there's just a voice coming from nowhere that's talking
over them.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
I think it's more than I think occult crimes are stupid.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
I really do.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
It's the same thing with like ghost Hunters. It's like, well,
the occult isn't a thing. It's crazy people making it up.
So I don't care, Okay, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yes, although I love the occult, I really do.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
What part of it do you love? The mystery, the outfit,
grown up goth like, yeah, convincing crazy people to do
insane things at their bidding? What is the bad part
of what you just say?

Speaker 2 (17:07):
It's so good people do it, that's the thing, you know.
I don't know. Okay, I don't know. It's just not
for you. I guess.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
It's almost like it's the same thing too, where it's
like there's something I really like that idea if you
take the occult part out. So like Jonestown, I think
it's cool because it's this bigger than life person was
able to convince all these people to do things for
him or to do. You know the same thing with
Manson's interesting too, because he was able to convince all
these people to do things, and it's like, but you
lain cold, but I love Satan too, and Satan's real

(17:36):
and it's like, no, he's fucking that. And then I
get struck by a bolt of light. How funny would
that be?

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Smoke just starts coming up from behind the couch.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
It was so weird to Georgia in her apartment just
got struck.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
By lighting, ranting and ranting about how Satan isn't real
until he was forced to show up.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
Mimi got on her hind legs, her eyes rolled back
in their head, and she started.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
She was like, I will take you to the door
place now.

Speaker 3 (17:59):
Say it me, me, me wrong.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
You know, we're so cute. It's so funny because you'd
picture her with like a girly voice. She actually has
a very deep satanic voice.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
And then Elvis was like, I fucking told you this
whole time. I was trying to warn you guys that
she sucked.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
It sounded like you wanted Elvis to have a New
York accent. Like I told you, fucking told you guys.
This has gotten way off track. Skippers, come back. This
was fun now because we were talking about a lot
of people actually recommended a cult crimes. That's how I
found out about it is because people were recommended. I'm

(18:34):
sorry that I shared on the girl that recommended Luther.
I adore you for tweeting at me. I didn't mean
you tweeted at me because I don't know it.

Speaker 4 (18:40):
That was right.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
I just ended up putting a Kia furniture together last
night and watching Kimmy Schmidt.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
It's pretty nice, so good. I love that shin I
do too. I really love it. It's so goddamn packed full
of jokes, so good, brilliantly written. And also it's a
kind to Bob's Burgers in that when you watch it,
if you were in a bad, low place, it's up
up up. It makes you feel happy. I'm so hilarious.
Titus Andronicus should be the president of the United States

(19:10):
of America.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
I would be so happy. It would be so much better. Okay,
so all right, girlfriends who are playing this podcast for
their boyfriends on a road trip and we were like, no,
you're gonna love this podcast. Come back to us. Wait,
that was good. I agree, fukay. Boyfriends who were like
to hit their girlfriends. I was also sexist. What I
just said, this is the best part. Get ready for

(19:33):
the boring part. Yeah, here comes the boring part.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
The point of all of it.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
Is going first today, it's you, I think, does it mean?

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, Karen's right, I was right about number seventy two.
I am fucking on this shit.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
Well them is Mimi's entire body waits on my story. Okay, sorry,
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
She looks so shocked. She's like, how dare you pull
your story out from under my body?

Speaker 3 (20:00):
And we're back?

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Did your mom like that Psychology Today subscription?

Speaker 3 (20:05):
Did she use it? My passive aggressive Psychology Today subscription?

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Just a little, I think, a little.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
Hit, Yeah, without understanding it. Have you seen that meme
that's like they show of this video of you being
this beautiful girl and it's like you're the kind of
girl they write books about, and then it flashes to
the DSM.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
There's a bunch of those on TikTok that are like,
I'm so excited for my sister today, and then it's
like some horrible thing. It's like it's like slut celebration
or whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
That's Soliday. Yeah, troll garbage, that rat day. I highly
recommend Psychology Today. Still though it's like such a it
was such a good magazine to like crack the surface
of those little things that you want to understand about yourself. Yeah,
it's really great for that.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, if you're too scared to go to therapy, that's
also you pick up one of those yeah magazines. Wait,
do you remember your birthday from twenty seventeen when you
turn thirty seven?

Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, I'm not specifically, but I'm guessing because we had
just moved into the pod loft, and I'm the kind
of person who takes advantage of amenities. That it was
in the pool. Like I had a pool party, remember
you did. I was there.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, you had a cake with your picture on it.
There was hot dogs. It was boiling fucking hot. We
were in that side air conditioned room. Yeah. I got
to hang out with your sister a little bit. That's
the first time I ever met her, that's right.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
And my nephew was just like a baby, he.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Was a baby on her hip.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
It was a fun party.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
It was really good.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
That apartment pool was literally jam packed with people.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yes, like every busy.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
It was hilarious how many people were in that pool.
But it was very fun.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, I had a lot of good birthdays there and
it was fun, like, yeah, going to a public pool
was always fun, people watching and the apartment. I mean,
I still have a key to that apartment building. If
we need to go to the.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Pool, go in there and go through someone's mail.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Pick up there.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, I don't remember the girl on the ustri Alien
game showed the chase.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
I totally remember her, because you do. Yeah, it was
like a Jeopardy type situation. Oh okay, like that's what
it looked like. I totally remember that. And it was like, yeah,
like presented as like Jeopardy would be. And she said that.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
We're just so lucky our Australian listeners are the best,
and we're so lucky to have such a strong contingent
down there, and yeah, strong and mighty and vocal and
the kind of people who would do that.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
Yeah, it's so funny, Like Australia has always been very supportive.
What okay, Yes, yes, it's great. I love it. We
got we gotta go back.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, okay, let's get into Georgia's story about the Interstate killer.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
This is the Highway killer or the Interstate killer. Now,
this is a serial killer that I had never heard of.
I've seen this photo before, but I've never heard of him.
And I found the like pretty straightforward story, like he
killed this person, then he killed this person, then he
killed this person. You know, like the story and it
was so devoid of any details that when I started

(23:09):
looking into it and suddenly it's like, no, this was
way fucking bigger than you thought it was. So we're
kind of learning this together. Can I guess which state
it took place in? Yes, Texas, you were wrong, fuck
because it took place in a lot of states. Oh, yes,
I see. You tell me, all right, I will. You
don't want to make it.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
I'm not going to guess the whole story. I thought
I should, but now I don't want.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
To just guess. Yes, guess Okay. From nineteen eighty two
until nineteen eighty four, a serial killer was killing younga men.
He was dubbed the Interstate Killer because his victims were
mostly random hitchhikers. Twenty to twenty three were dead before
he was caught. The victims were stabbed, and they were

(23:55):
bodies were found in parts of Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, and Wisconsin.
What yeah, So the first really thought I knew this
and I do not know it at all. You know
his face? Okay, this is crazy, Okay. So Jay Reynolds
was the first victim. He was found on March twenty second,
nineteen eighty two. He was found stabbed to death on
the outskirts of Lexington, Kentucky, and all of these okay.

(24:20):
Nine months later, on October third, fourteen year old Delvoyd
Baker was strangled. His body was dumped on the roadside
of North roadside north of Indianapolis. And Stephen Crockett, who
was nineteen on October twenty third, was stabbed thirty two
times for those wins were to the head discarded outside Lowell, Indiana.

(24:45):
So then the killer goes to Illinois and on November
sixth he leaves the body of Robert Foley in a
field northwest of Juliette. Juliette law enforcements is like, oh,
there's a pattern right of assaults on young men, which
back then we know wasn't something that would look very
deep like if you look at any of these interstate

(25:06):
killings of young men, not looked into very deeply. So
stabbing and strangulation are present in every case. So then
on Christmas of nineteen eight eighty two, twenty five year
old John Johnson's body is found dumped in a field
outside Bellshaw, Indiana. Three days later, twenty one year old
John Roach is discovered near Belleville, and then the bound

(25:29):
body of twenty three year old car wash employee of
from Terre Haute. His name is Stephen again Aga and
Egan Stephen Agan. He'd been stabbed to death and discarded
north of Newport, Indiana. So then, on June sixth, nineteen
eighty three, an anonymous caller tells cops that he knows

(25:50):
who the interstate killer is. He says that someone he
knew had been picked up an attacked by the killer
and had played dead after being assaulted. Ooh, knows who
the person was. The man's name was Larry Eller. Sorry,
Larry Eller, and he's arrested. Can I say his name correctly?
When you steve it that out? Stephen that out? His

(26:12):
name is?

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Could you Stephen that outing?

Speaker 3 (26:16):
To leave that all in?

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Just for that?

Speaker 3 (26:19):
So actually leave that holy shit st Steven that out?

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Please?

Speaker 3 (26:24):
I just ruined this. The man's name is Larry Eller
and he is arrested. Okay, let's talk about Larry Eller.
He's born in Crawfordsville, Indiana, on December twenty first, nineteen
fifty two. By the time he was a teen, his
mother had married and divorced four times. Oh that's too many,
he's too many. He I mean, that's fine for like what.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
So like every three years.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
I'm just trying to do the y He attends Catholic schools,
has some difficulty. At ten years old, he sent to
the Riley Child Guidance Clinic in Indiana, Indiana, where psychologists
or psychological tests revealed normal and intelligence, but extreme insecurity
and great fear of separation and abandonment.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
You know.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
The staff of the clinics said that his home environment
was unstable and chaotic and recommend that he be sent
to live elsewhere. So, at the age of twelve, he
went to live in a Catholic boys home. Oh no,
I know where he stayed for five months. Little did
they know? Little or did they know? It was later
said by a forensic psychiatrist that his history was one

(27:29):
of the worst cases of child abuse he had seen
in twenty years in the field. Oh no, yeah, so
there's not a lot of details about it, but they
like hint at things, but they don't go too deep
into it, like you can't find details except for one
thing about one of his stepdads would pour hot water
on his head when he was like mad at him.
It's just like that's all you know, and that's horrible.

(27:52):
But there wasn't a lot of other information about it.
So he dropped out of high school in his senior year,
worked odd jobs for a couple of years, and not
long after really leaving high school, he joined the monastery,
and then he quit the monastery. So Larry Eller is
struggling all his life to cope with what turns out
to be his homosexuality. So he was simultaneously fast fascinated

(28:16):
and repelled by it. He hated himself for it, but
he couldn't help himself.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
I bet the Catholic Boys Home did a lot of
good for that issue.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
I bet you're right. Yeah, that was all sarcasm.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
That was total sarcasm.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
So he killed his first victim. At around thirty years old,
Larry was arrested for the assault that the anonymous call
Her call Her had called in, but the case was
dropped when Eyler gave the victim money and the victim
was like find him out of here, which is totally understandable.
You don't want to relieve this whole trauma for no reason. Yeah.

(28:55):
The bodies of young men then continued to be found
throughout the spring of night three, with most of the
action shifting to Illinois. By July second, the body count
stood at twelve. Some of the victims had been mutilated
after death, and a few had been disemboweled. Whoa yeah.
The thirteenth victim was Ralph Khalisi, and he was found

(29:16):
August thirty first, dumped in a field near Lake Forest, Illinois.
He had been dead less than twelve hours when he
disappeared and was discovered. He was bound with clothesline and
a surgical tape, stabbed seventeen times, and his pants were
pulled down around his ankles. Then, on October thirtieth, nineteen
eighty three, in Indiana, a highway patrolman spotted a pickup

(29:38):
truck parked along the Interstate sixty five. Two men were
walking towards a bunch of trees. He stops them. One
was bound, and when the officer went to investigate, he
identifies Larry Eyler as the owner of the truck.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
So the cop catches him as he's about to lead
someone into the forest already.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
To yeah, and the guy says, he told me he'd
give me money, you know, for sex. He asked if
he could tie me up, and we were walking out
towards the field.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
So the guy at that point was actually it's voluntary
because he thinks, oh, I'm just gonna get paid, yeah,
and I'm fine to do this.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
Yes. So then when the officer searches the truck, he
finds surgical tape, clothesline, and a hunting knife that's stained
with blood. So Eyler is taken in for questioning, and
when the forensic experts check the blood, they match it
with that of Kalisi, who had been found previously. They
were also able to match the tire tracks left at

(30:40):
the Kalisi site with that of Eiler's truck, and police
were like, this is enough to put him behind bars,
but they let him go while they continued the investigation. Yeah,
they can't just hold him, no, yeah, So while the
investigation continued in the Calisi murder, Eiler is set free. Then,
on October fourth, nineteen eighty three, fourteen year old Derek

(31:03):
Hanson is found dismembered near Kenahosha, Wisconsin, Kenosha, thank you sorry,
fourteen not of young young kids. Eleven days later, a
young John Doe is discovered near Renelsier, Indiana.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
That one I don't know. I only know Kenosha because
my friend grew up right near it.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
Okay, that was a good one, so I've heard him
say it renslaire Renzilaire.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Spell it r.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
E n s s e l a e r.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
I got lost of the two s's rencilar lair Rensilaire.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
Is it bear? I got that one wrong.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
That was on What was it baxer? It looks like
but it's spelled with an X in the middle, and
it's like it's pronounced bear last. Well, you're just changing
the rules of reading.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, then you're actually you're wrong. It's not last week.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
You want to call them mayor and tell them that
he's wrong.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
Guess what I am the mayor. I just made myself
the mayor.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
She'll just took off a mask and revealed that she is,
in fact the mayor.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
That's true. They did it, Okay, Okay. Almost two weeks later,
another John Doe is found near Effingham, Illinois, and two
other victims, Richard Wayne and another unidentified mail were found
dead outside of Indianapolis. Then October eighteenth, nineteen eighty three,
a couple is hunting for mushrooms at an abandoned Indiana farm,

(32:28):
hanging out. They're like, we've found mushrooms here before. Let's
get somewhere, right.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, for either for a solid or to trip out
all day long. Yeah. Whatever this couple is into is
their business.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
It's their business. They've been there before. They're not there
to hurt anyone that are there to find two skulls
lying near a dilapidated barn.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
No, so we can at least assume that they were
stone on pot.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
If they're out looking for mushrooms and they're freaking out, man,
and then they stumble upon like remains, that's awful. Yeah,
those poor hippies, I know. Then it actually turns out
that they're also businessmen. Well, turns out there the murderers. No, no,
so many twists, they're also business men.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
Murderers. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Finally that's the that's the area I want to I
want to go into.

Speaker 3 (33:14):
It's all of it.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
I want the murders that happen inside of the Enron building.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Do you think I mean? I mean they got there
has to be at least one.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
There has to There were so many people in that building.

Speaker 3 (33:23):
Yeah, everyone was like on a lot of pressure. Yeah, okay,
they had to either sell or buy or to kill.
There's business that buy or kill on lifetime. Yeah, oh,
write it down. What about a grocery one called sell
by dead.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Like a and then it's like so by colon dead dead,
I love it. Okay, we can keep working on that one.
But the other one about Enron is perfect. So they
sold it or any great?

Speaker 3 (34:00):
Uh okay, there's an abandoned Indiana farm. They find two
skulls lying together north of the barn off US Highway
forty one, just across the Illinois state line in Newton County.
Way to go Newton County.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, how simple you are to pronounce and.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
Read thank you. I'm only doing murders from places that
are just one syllable. It's two syllables, just town something town,
no ex'es, nothing, no doubles's. When police get to the scene,
they then find two other bodies whoa and near that barn.
One of the victims had been decapitated and all had

(34:37):
their pants pulled down and they had been stabbed to death.
Two of the victims were identified. Michael Bauer, which is
my friend's ex boyfriend's name. He was a twenty three
year old pizza deliverer, last scene taking out the trash
at his parents' Portage Park home, which was what a
fucking bummer. Yes, and John Bartlett, who's nineteen, who was

(34:57):
staying with his sister in Chicago after being district from
the Army. I know. By this time, police were like,
this is clearly Larry Eyler. They fucking knew it was him.
Another victim who had survived his attack identified photographs of Isler,
and another survivor came in and was like, yep, happened
to me too, But the investigators wanted him for homicide,

(35:19):
so their circumstantial evidence was still incomplete, so they wouldn't
arrest him.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
So Larry Eler at this point is under constant surveillance
in Chicago, and because of this, he files a suit
against the Lake County Sheriff's Office accusing them of mounting
a quote psychological welfare. Nope, psychological warfare, not welfare. That'd
be a good thing. Campaign to unhinge his mind, right, Yes,
that's what they do.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
That's what all the police are trying to do to
this one.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
Guy, Yeah, who happens to also be a child blessing murderer. Yes,
his claim for half a million dollars is denied. What Yeah,
he's not the victim in this scenario. Turns on and
as he's in the courtroom, Isler is arrested for Ralph
Kalisi's murder.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Wow, that's sweet ass timing on those police people's part.
They were just like, Oh, yeah, you want to go
in and try to you want to try to sue
the city.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
Okay, go ahead, we'll meet you out here. Don't get
too soaked yet, though, Karen. He's held in lieu of
a million dollars in bond. But in the pre trial
hearing February fifth, nineteen eighty four, all the evidence recovered
from Eler's truck the night they found him with the
guy who was bound gets excluded. Why because the night

(36:36):
that they found him in the truck, they held him
without arrest in the in the jail for over twelve hours. Oh,
which you're not allowed to do. Yeah, you have to
have a reason to hold him there, that's right, arresting him.
So he's released on bail. I know, it's a real bummer.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
Man. It's crazy. It's crazy when it happens when it's
a serial killer. It's not This isn't a shoplifter. Yeah,
it's not like someone's rights were slightly stepped on. Who was,
you know, like a slum lord or something. Yeah, bad,
very bad. But this is a person who is out
a predator that's intentionally killing inn and people.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Oh okay, here's what gets Eman Morris is now he
goes on to kill a bunch of people, okay, after this, right,
because they couldn't hold him.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Right.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
So, in May seventh, nineteen eighty four, twenty two year
old David Block was found murdered near Zion, Illinois. His
wounds also was the pattern of everyone else who had
been killed already. Okay, so then August twenty fourth, first,
nineteen eighty four, a janitor of an apartment house in

(37:46):
Chicago goes to take out the garbage and empty the
garbage can and they're overflowing with gray bags, like nice
gray trash bags. And this guy, his last name is Bala,
He's like, those trash bags aren't my tenants used. My
tenants used cheaper bags. He knew they weren't his tenants

(38:09):
because they were nice trash bags. It was like, my
tenants are pieces of shit. They don't buy this stuff.
They don't buy Hefty, they buy fucking nine acent store shit. Yeah.
So it made him suspicious, and he says, quote, I
was very pissed off a little bit, so I opened
one up, ripped it open. I was very curious. What
the hell am I throwing out? He says, Can you
imagine what his accent sounded like? This is just Chicago, right,

(38:30):
it's a Chicago janitor. Yeah, and the building manager.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, who gets pissed about garbage?

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (38:38):
What am I throwing out? I just want to know?

Speaker 2 (38:40):
I just want to know you're putting your garbage in here.

Speaker 3 (38:43):
I want to know accent, even what's the accent for
you to Chicago and I'm throwing at the garbage. Well done,
get angry though, and throwing at the fucking garbage here.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Even that out that turned over into triple Chicago.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
Yeah that was amazing. It's just like harder accent is angrier. Yep.
So of course he's opening the bags and guess what
a leg slips out to the ground. Yeah. So eight
within eight bags are the remains of fifteen or sixteen.
I can't tell you're old hustler. Danny Bridges, he's like

(39:30):
fifteen or sixteen. He's a child sex worker, hustler. You
know the streets of Chicago back then. Can you imagine
seeing a fifteen year old like work in the.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
Streets and stuff in the eighties?

Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yeah, probably in the nineties too, Let's be honest, like I.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Can't write up till today.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
Well, so, Danny Bridges is a known sex worker by
Chicago Police Special Investigations Investigations Unit. They had been established
a combat child pornography and the sex abuse of children,
and they actually had worked with Danny to get his
story to people who were advocating for teen sex workers.

(40:08):
So there's a couple of channels doing new stories. I
guess there's a video of him talking to them, like
doing news news stories. I can't find them, and I
would fucking love to see when this kid looks so
like he just looks like he knows too much about life.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
So he's seen years old.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
Yeah, he's a freshman in high school. Well, I don't
think he goes to school at this point.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, I know, just the equation of like if he
had rich parents if he grew up in Evanstone and was,
you know, had a little eyes od sweater on and
was listening to fucking the Specials. Yeah, topsiders, maybe quiet.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
So he was warned by the Chicago Special Police to
stay away from the s guy from Eler Like, everyone
is like, stay the fuck away from this guy. We're
trying to get him. He's a murderer. Yeah, people, you know,
stay away from Okay. But later one member of the

(41:11):
Special Investigations Unit acknowledged in the book What Cops Know
by Connie Fletcher that the unit encouraged child prostitutes to
have sex with adults in order to make a rest,
as in, they would set them up like a sting operation, right,
which I know is super inflammatory, but it's in this book.
I didn't say it.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
The quote, well, that was basically the practice was they're
using these children as bait so they can get these
bad guys. That's the only way they can actually lure
them out.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
Right.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
They can't use legal people to do it, even though
it was completely.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
But ethically they should be using evidence that's not putting
a child at risk. I mean that's like a yeah,
I guess even if it was like someone who was
of age, and they were working with the police for
some reason. But this is just like so dark and deep.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
Well these days they would just use people who were looking.
It would be a twenty one jump Street. Yeah, sex
worker edition, Yes, so he said.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
The quote from the SIU investigator says, our opinion is
that you should go out and find the crime. What
better way to prove and have him What better way
to prove the crime than to get it in progress
or to follow someone home and have him go to
bed with a kid. This is what this guy said
in this book.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, eighty two, eighty four, eighty this was This book
was written in ninety one.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Oh no, I know. So it seems that they acknowledged
that the unit encouraged child sex workers to have sex
with adults in order to make arrests.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
Right.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
So, and it also Danny Bridges was needed to testify
and pending child pornography trials. So this kid was like
deep in it and he gets killed. So in one
of the NBC videos, a reporter asks in nineteen eighty four,
asks Danny Bridges about Eiler, and he says, yeah, I
knew him. He was a real freak. He used to

(43:04):
come around uptown and hang around. So this kid, Danny Bridges,
knows about Eyler, and the question then is why would
he go home with him if he already knew he
was a creep? So Danny Bridges is going to get
into a car with a guy that he knows as
a creep? No, unless maybe he was doing it for
the police. Oh, it's kind of the question, right, which

(43:25):
is one.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
Yeah, it's like literally live bait, like worst case scenario.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
And it was never I mean, this is just like
something I found in a bunch of little articles which
I'll name at the end of this. So so perhaps
the whole thing was a sting that went wrong because
Danny did get killed.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, so how the fuck does that happen? Like you
that's so that's the craziest version of that story, right.
It was like like if the cops were using him
as bait, then what excuse in the world could they
have to then somehow lose track of him, you know
what I mean? Like that would be the only if
you're letting child get into the car with a known

(44:01):
serial killer. You can't like, oh, whoops, they took a
wrong turn. I mean, like that's insanity.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
Well, Here's the other part of this that gets in
here somewhere is that they think that Larry Eyler might
have had an accomplice. Oh, because Danny's fingerprints were never
found on Larry Eyler's car, so maybe someone else picked
him up brought him back there.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
I know.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
It's really complicated, okay, But.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
Also usually isn't it rare that serial killers would have,
like have an accomplice or work with someone else? I
would think so, but who knows. I mean, I'll ask,
would you ask, I'll ask my friend. Oh that's my
friend at the FBI.

Speaker 3 (44:40):
Would you ask your accomplice, your serial killer accomplice. Oh,
that's my boss, that's the guy you're working with to
kill people. Okay. So witnesses, you know, after they find
the body parts in the garbage bags, witnesses say they
saw a man a lip next door put the bags
in the trash and he is Isler, who's third one
years old at this time.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
So he just took the garbage to the place next
door during the day. He wanted to get caught, or
he was just really stupid.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
So Larry Eiler is convicted of murder, and he of
Danny Bridges and my Lord, she's being real.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
She's all over the map.

Speaker 3 (45:22):
Okay. He's convicted of murder and aggravated kidnapping of Danny
Bridges in October third, nineteen eighty six, he sentenced to die.
Then in November of nineteen ninety, he's bargaining to save
himself from execution. He agrees to help Indiana authorities solve
a number of his crimes if they would get him
off death row. So he confesses to the killing of

(45:43):
the aigin torture slang and surprise investigators by naming an
alleged accomplish. Accomplish, I keep saying words wrong today. I
don't know what's going on with me. Oh, I'm having
a stroke. It's all right, accomplice. So fifty three year
old Robert David Little, he's the chairman of the Department
of Library Science at Indiana State University. And this murder

(46:08):
of Agan happens when he's staying with with Larry as
a guest, and according to Eyler, Little took the photos
and masturbated while Larry disemboweled the victim. Oh, so he's like,
let's pick up boys. You do this, I'll do that.
So he's like part of it, and it's kind of
his Like this guy doctor Little is like his sugar daddy.

(46:32):
He's like paying for his places to live. He used
to be a student of doctor Little and they're like
working together.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
What the fuck?

Speaker 3 (46:40):
Yeah, it's some real twisted shit that they better fucking
make a movie out of.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Because he's a he's a professor of library science. So
there's like a real that you could make that as
super creepy in the Stacks style murder story.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
Who would play him? I'm already wondering. I mean, are
you watching far Ago and how amazing? What's his name is?
Ewan McGregor, Oh my god? But the woman I don't
know her name offhand, who's also in the Leftovers.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Yes, she's amazed, she's so good. I have two characters
are so different. I am loving Mary Stuart something or other,
not Masterson, Mary Stuart Little.

Speaker 3 (47:20):
No, Mary Beth, Mary Beth, Mary McBeth.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
It's Mary macbeth from the play.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
I am loving. But the young hot girl though, are
you caught up?

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Yes, you mean the one she's playing who's also playing the.

Speaker 3 (47:36):
Sheriff that's not her or the police chief.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
I mean the girl at the short black hair Yeah,
that's that's the Ewan McGregor's the dumpy brother.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
His girlfriend is the same as the chief. Hold the
fuck up? Yes, no, no, wait, I'm the one that gets
to tell you this. I told this to Vince and.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
He's like, no, well, Devince is straight up wrong.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
No, yes, Vince. I mean I almost yelled at Stephen Vince, Vince,
we're getting a divorce, stam in, Is this true? Mary
Elizabeth Winstead is that you're thinking of? Yes, she's playing
both characters. It doesn't stay on the main Wikipedia page,
but if you go deeper, we go deeper. Hold on,
hold on, hold on.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Uh, who's the it's her choice. She plays telling you eyeliner, nicky,
nicky swango, nicky swang. Go's the girlfriend that's rock and roll. Yeah,
and she plays her the chief.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
She's the chief and Wikipedia is failing me. I am
so mad at you. Stan. You're gonna get Stephen out
of here.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
You Everything you have to say from now on is
in a Chicago excil.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
No, IMDb Fargo three put this on pause Season three.
If I get this before you see in, you're fucking fire.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Well he's trying to hold a microphone and then do
it with one thing.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
Well that's his problem. Okay, all right, okay, here we go. No,
I think you're wrong, No way, Harry kon is chief
what yep, it's too different after Mary Elizabeth something God
I got she thought, so Elizabeth Winstead, Mary Elizabeth Winstead's
only the girlfriend. Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
I've had so many conversations about how amazing.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
Including with me because I was like, uh, huh, I
agreed with you a couple weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
They looked so much alike. I asked Vince it was
the same person too, because I agree. We always have
to believe Vince, now, why Yeah, that's he's never wrong.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
He's never wrong. Never.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
He also doesn't say shit like I do, where I'm like, no,
I'm positive, and I'm like, oh, you're right, I'm wrong.

Speaker 3 (49:37):
I do that shit all this. I listen, look, look
and listen. You said that she plays two characters, and
I didn't want to be like, I think you're wrong,
so I was.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Like, oh, yeah, oh, you always got to say if
you think I'm wrong. It happens a lot.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
Have you tried telling yourself telling you that you think
you're wrong?

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Uh, if you're confirmed, like.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
Arguing, no, no, no, I just think I don't like. I
would rather that I'm wrong, because I usually am. Okay,
what was that thing I said the other day the
cockles of your heart? Hackles? I said cockles?

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Yeah, No, you said something about getting I don't want
to get. You said something something about the I said.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
I don't want like.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
You said something about the cock I don't want to
get you cockles up right? And but it was hackles.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
This is why I don't argue when people tell me
a thing.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
I know, but I feel like, okay, well. I also
when I'm positive about something, it almost changes the fact
I get so positive. I think you we're exactly the
same way. I believe the way you do the same thing.
It's like, oh, don't look it up.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
Yeah, Like, let's wait until you see this that I'm right.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
I don't under But here's the thing. This happens all
the time in casting. Why are you casting two women
who look eggs? All I thought was that the that
the that the police chief woman just had less eyeliner
and a different haircut. And I'm like, this is brilliant
that they're making her look a little bit older simply

(51:01):
by not.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
Because the brothers are the same person, So why couldn't
this be that too? I thought it was.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
I thought was I thought it was like a thief.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
I did two. I think I stopped thinking that would
have been said no, I would have doubled down. And
I think she is killing it. So who do you
think is killing it?

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Then?

Speaker 3 (51:20):
The Chief? I love the Chief. I think now the girlfriend,
Mary Elizabeth is fucking it's suddenly about her, yes, and
I fucking am like. At first I was like, who, Like,
what's this peripheral character? And now it's about her and
I fucking love her. Yeah, she's I think. I like
them both a lot. But I did too, but I wasn't.
I knew that the other Carrie was good in the Leftovers,

(51:43):
so I wasn't worried about that. But this chick, it's awesome.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
I mean, I just think she's now I think she's bad.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
I'm just kidding. I just thought that it.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Was this amazing job of when you are the kind
of girl that dresses rock and roll like the like
the hot girlfriend, you have a kind of aura about
you that looks like that, and when you are a
woman that's just trying to fucking get some shit done
and have people listen to you, you look like Carrie Kum,

(52:13):
which is kind of an all business hair haircut, and
not a lot of makeup and not a lot of that,
and a lot of just like I'm not trying to
do anything. And it seems like this perfect presentation of
like when what you do with your womanly attractiveness based
on the job you have or based on why you're

(52:33):
trying to get done with your job.

Speaker 3 (52:34):
And it's this thing too of like you can either
use the fact that you're hot or pretty or you cannot.
But the one way isn't better than the other.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Exactly right, They're both. It's up to you in both ways,
and they're both very effective. I just loved that presentation.
I'm like, I was giving it so much fucking credit.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Do you need to call it a hole? People you're
at parties.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
They're so mad right now of like me holding forth
on what it means Philip, you know, philosophically and representationally
of the woman's role or whatever.

Speaker 3 (53:05):
I wonder how many people like an actress have argued
your point once they believed you at parties or whatever.

Speaker 2 (53:12):
Let's not act like I go to a bunch of parties.
I haven't talked to anybody but the two of you
in like months.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
Those Hollywood parties and our therapist. Oh that's right. I
just tried to tell our therapist. She has been in
Oh she was in Scott Pilgrim. Okay, she's cute.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Okay, a rock and roll girl was the girlfriend in
Scott Pilgrim. Yeah, yes, she's great.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
And she was in ten Cloverfield Lane. She's great, man, Okay,
she's been in some cool shit.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
What about Carrie coun she's been She's from the leftovers.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
She's from the leftovers. Is not enough for it?

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Is?

Speaker 3 (53:51):
Let's see here she is. Should we be doing more
Wikipedia or should you finish? Oh? I'm not done? Fuck
I thought it was done. Fuck god, damn it. I
don't want to keep going. Listen. He's a fucking asshole.
He Diedabates.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Oh god, no, literally he dies Avates. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Sorry, that was the end of the fucking story. Okay,
I'm almost done. He has a guy who does it
with him. That's the darkest. I feel like that is
the darkest.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
That's probably why we just took a serious left turn,
Like we just touched into the darkest area possible, which
is serial A team of serial killer situation. Yeah fuck
that also against children, totally yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:34):
Totally, so based on his confession, Larry Eler receives a
sixty year prison sentence on top of what he's been
going on through. In return, he agrees to testify against
doctor Little, who's arrested on the murder charges and in
the absence of physical evidence to support Eyler's statement, Little
is acquitted of all charges in nineteen ninety one. So okay, later,

(54:58):
Larry Eyler's attorney, he finds out that doctor Little had
been paying for Larry Eler's defense. So Larry's testifying against
doctor Little for the prosecution but has a financial relationship
with the prosecution's lead witness and illegal duty to his
client and it's all crazy fucked up, So that shouldn't

(55:19):
have happened, however, Okay, back in Lnoy's.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
But it happened anyway, basically did, but they.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
Didn't figure that out until Okay, four time letter back Illinois,
Larry's Larry offers a clear twenty murders in exchange for
commutation of his sentence to life imprisonment in the state.
Authorities say no, And then I wrote Dix because there
were more murders going on after Larry Isler's was put
into prison that were very similar to what was going

(55:45):
on when he was killing people.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Was it doctor Library Little?

Speaker 3 (55:48):
It was someone else who worked in a similar manner.
And Larry Elers is like, Yo, I'll tell you everything
and I'll put all of this to bed if you
just don't kill me. And this guy who is like
this was the new something after attorney thank you, and
he was like, no, we put him. Jack O'Malley, he
was the county state attorney. He could keep him, keep

(56:11):
Eyler and jail of the rest of his life, solve
more than twenty old murders, help bring to justice a
killer or killer still in the loose end, save tach payers,
taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in appeal costs. But
good old Jack O'Malley said, a bird in the hand
is better than twenty in the bush. Literally said that.
So he said no.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
So he was basically saying, killing this one guy is
worth it, Okay, all right, okay.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
So Larry Eiler dies of aids on March sixth, nineteen
ninty four to forty one years old. Kathleen Zelner handles
Eyler's appeals, she describes the killings. He tells her about
all the killings over the last three years before he dies,
and she convinces him. She convinces him to let her
release his confession after his death, so she released a
list of twenty one killings to which she said Eiler

(56:58):
confessed and that he said he had an accomplice for
four of the killings. He took a polygraph text that
supported all of these things. So it's all true. Maybe
probably pretty so. I don't know if you recognize the
name Kathleen Zelner. Is it the makeup products that like,

(57:19):
make your Zelner for don't get a case of the mondays?
Uh will exonerate your pores? I don't know. Is that
what you do trying to think of stuff?

Speaker 2 (57:32):
You're going on my riff? I thought you were giving
me clues.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
Oh she really.

Speaker 4 (57:36):
Could be No, no, no, oh my god, I was
just like, what, Oh should I know that puzzles?

Speaker 3 (57:40):
Oh no no, I was going off your riff badly.
You couldn't tell them because they were very bad.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
So they will exonerate your pores. I disagree. I think
you did great.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
Thank you so much. I'm honored you're saying next is
my birthday?

Speaker 2 (57:55):
No I'm not. No, I never do that.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
Okay. One, Miss Kathleen Zelner, who, by the way, if
this had been turned into a movie like it was
supposed to call Privileged Information, would have been played by
Jessica Biel is also now Steve Avery's new appella attorney from.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Wisconsin, The Making a Murderer.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
So she is a defense attorney.

Speaker 3 (58:16):
She's a she's on appeals, she's the appeals attorney.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
Once you get convicted, she comes in and is like,
let's see if we can turn this around.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
So she that's what she did for him in that
she found out that that his whole defense had been
paid for by the person he ended up fingering, oh,
doctor little. So she was like, what the fuck. So
she basically she goes through everything from the trial and
is like, here's what this fucked up. Here's what that
fucked up. We're going to go back and appeal all
of this based on this, not based on even whether

(58:45):
or not you did it or based on you know,
it's purely legal.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
It's like, yeah, the problem.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
Guy, turn over enough this evidence they were supposed to get.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Did this go by the book?

Speaker 1 (58:55):
Right?

Speaker 3 (58:55):
Which might or not mean that the guy is guilty,
but it doesn't matter because it's cross shoe pross up, yeah,
which is great. Good for her, all right.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
That's what I'm got, George, is like I'm being forced
to say this.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
Yeah, No, I mean that though. It's like, you know,
it's the thing that the fucking guy Brenham says to
us too, which is like, it doesn't matter. You have
to give them a good fight, right, which is like no,
but I'm in jail forever, all right. So a bunch
of eleven bodies after his arrest, eleven bodies turn up
in rural counties in Ohio and Indiana, all the same age,

(59:27):
ligature marks, all this shit. And then so that's it.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Where's doctor fucking Little? Is he the one doing it?

Speaker 3 (59:43):
I don't you can't find information about this shit.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
I want to give a shout out to the article
really that sums up everything really well was called the
Return of Larry Eyler from the Chicago Reader in nineteen
ninety two, and it's written by John Conroy and it
really is the best article you can read it. And
then there's a couple other ones here and there that
gives some information but it's so hard to find anything right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
But this return of Larry Eyler, I want to read that.
It's it's just.

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
Such a fucked up I hope I told that well enough,
and I know I was like, I didn't say words correctly.
Sometimes it's just how I do things.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
But hey, it's your birthday, it's my birthday. No, the
mouth is dry, amazing, Well, now I just want to
Now I'm so mad and want to know it. Also,
that sounds like such a dumb political stance of yeah,
we are going to kill him because we've got the
chance to kill him and he deserves to be killed,
so we're going to kill him.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
Well, this guy was also like it was his first
death penalty that he had gotten and they were all
proud of that, so he didn't want to give it up.
And so all these parents whose kids had disappeared and
they didn't know where they were, and people who thought
it was going to keep happening, were like, give this
guy life in prison. He's not going to get out,
and this chit Kathy Katherine's owner was also like because

(01:01:01):
the guy was like, well what if he then gets
out in thirty years because we took the death penalty away,
and she like proved that he wouldn't because of these,
because of this other, this other thing he got found
guilty of. So it's never gonna happen anyway, isn't this
guy just like he.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Admitting to twenty murderers and you give him a life
sentence he won't get out, and then twenty life sentences
with no parole he wouldn't have. Oh that's fucking heavy.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
Yeah, So it's just it's just fucking sad and crazy
that we've never heard. It's just another one of those like,
you know, a disenfranchised group of people are getting killed,
so nobody cares, and it's not a big deal to anyone,
right except their families, So why prosecute hard or what?

Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Yeah, and no, it's nothing against the cops. And actually
there's one John Doe that one of the counties had.
They could never find out who it was, so they
all the cops. They're paid for a funeral for him.
Oh and like and like went to the funeral and
visit the grave and got him a headstone. And it's like,
it's not it's just it's just shitty. It's so shitty.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Yeah, it's such hard work and that's so shitty.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
Well, and you know this made me think of and
just to pull out bigger picture thing because we even
since I was in high school, being in high school
in the eighties, the difference the way people talk about
being gay, people treat gay people. It is exactly the
opposite of how when I was a teenager, and so
I think for younger people don't appreciate it as much.

(01:02:32):
But this is such a great example of people going like,
h you know, men marrying men or women marrying women,
what's next or whatever, all that kind of shit. It's
such a like when you look at how when you
repress and oppress people and tell them that they can't
be who they are, the kind of things, the kind
of psychological damage that that causes, and what that can

(01:02:55):
turn into in certain people. Obviously not always because but
the idea of that that people back then, not that
long ago, were absolutely forced to not only deny who
they were, but some were made to despise who they
were to the point of having to kill It's such

(01:03:15):
a fucking heavy concept.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
Well, what's crazy too is if like for the victim side,
it's also that thing of like when you make fun
of people for that thing, and you make them less
human unless you identify with them less as a human being.
And so when these horrible things happen to them, you
can't have empathy for them because you don't think they're
normal human beings.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):
And the other thing I was going to say was
something really poignant.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
About well that I mean on top of that, which
is an incredibly poignant thing to say. What you just
said is kind of it almost like that argument that
was so popular online five years ago or whatever, of
like everything's funny, rape is funny, anything is funny. It
like maybe in your small group of friends that could

(01:04:02):
be true to you and the people who are just
like you. Then then the larger scheme of things, that's
exactly right. It's it's dehumanizing to people, and it's uh,
and it's dehumanizing to situations where it's like, but that's
actually not the case for everyone. And this it feels
like these days, the attempts almost subconscious societal you know,

(01:04:26):
as a human race, we're just trying to be more
connected and more empathetic to each other, no matter who
that other person is. And so if that person isn't
like you, you might not laugh at those same jokes
as you. Of course, you can still tell whatever fucking
jokes you want, but the idea is, are you going
to make a human connection or not, or are you
going to cancel that connection forever because you so value

(01:04:49):
your momentary need to say whatever the fuck you want.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
And I think more and more people are being what
the fuck is wrong with you that you need to
make fun of these people? And I think what's really
cool nowadays too, is like we're so much more willing
to call people out on a shit. Yeah, like why
are you making a rape joke? And when you do
make a rape joke with five of your friends, you
don't know if one of them has been raped, and
so they're never going to come forward because you're making
it a joke. And I think that people are more
willing to call other people out on it now, And

(01:05:14):
because there's a psychological thing with people who can make
jokes about that, that there's something fucking wrong with them.
One hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
I think that's really what it's turning into, is as
opposed to talking about this as a need or a
rite or anything like that, it's just like, well, actually,
it's just a reflection on you, which is really what it.
I mean, it's all of these it's a very complex thing.
It's all of these things at once. But ultimately, like
for me as a person, it just makes me think
of you as a person less, definitely less. I just

(01:05:43):
don't talk about that I think of you less, but
I absolutely think are you less in the same way
that there are a lot of people who didn't grow
up while AIDS was a thing. I can remember the
news report when they first reported AIDS as an issue
in the Bay Area. I remember it. I remember how
my parents reacted. I remember the moment. I think I

(01:06:06):
was like eleven and growing up under this unbelievably scary
dark thing of AIDS, and then having my friend Ken Mason,
who is one of my closest friends from sixth grade
through high school, died when he was twenty two years
old because he was closeted and because he got AIDS

(01:06:26):
two or twenty three. It was sorry, it was very
very sad. But like when people make AIDS jokes, I
don't go, never make that joke again or whatever. I
just go, oh, you don't get it. It's like you
don't get but also that you don't get it. It's
almost like proclaiming your ignorance of lack of empathy, but
also just that you haven't really been through life. There
much you haven't lived. You're probably kind of spoiled. Both

(01:06:49):
your parents were probably still alive. You know what I mean.
When you decide that you get to make whatever race joke,
you get to say the N word, you all this
shit that you think you can do just reflects on you.
It's just about the quality of your character totally. Why
am I still talking? Because that's important.

Speaker 3 (01:07:11):
Step and Stephen, all that out. Please put Stephen it out.
Let's all make this in minisoda.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
Stephen.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
That's gonna be our like break music.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Stephen, it won't just stay it out, always go up
at the end.

Speaker 3 (01:07:29):
It out. Okay, we're back.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
Do you have updates?

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
I do? Actually. In April twenty twenty one, one of
the four victims discovered near an abandoned farmhouse in Lake Village,
Indiana in October of eighty three, was identified using DNA
and genetic genealogy as John Brandenburg Junior. He was nineteen
and originally from Kentucky, and he went missing from Chicago.

(01:07:57):
Then in December twenty twenty one, Another victor, William Lewis
of Peru, Indiana, was identified as a victim discovered in
Jasper County, Indiana in October of eighty three. He was
also just nineteen that. In July of twenty twenty three,
Keith Bibbs, another one of the four Lake Village victims,
was identified. He was the last of the four to

(01:08:19):
be identified. He was from Chicago and he was sixteen
years old. National Geographic created a docu series which I
have to check out, called Naming the Dead, and the
episode The Hitchhiker focuses on law enforcement efforts in DNA
DOE project identifying two of Eiler's victims. That aired just
recently in August twenty twenty five, So go check that out.

(01:08:41):
Naming the Dead is what it's called.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Yeah, that sounds good.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
It's so great that we're finally able to put names
to these children. I mean they're teenagers still.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
Yeah, I just I hope that this just keeps unraveling
and you know, yeah, all right, let's do your story.
This is when I've just never forgotten it. Maybe it's
because I live near Glendale, but it's just so disturbing,
so wild, you know, let's listen to Karen's story about
the pillow pyro. All right, Le'm gonna tell that story

(01:09:18):
one more time, my murder story one more time, just
to get it right right? And did I make a
lot of mistakes in the beginning of that? Can I
redo it? Stephen? Not right now?

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
But he has all your fixes in there.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
No, but like the words I miss said, I'm just
gonna put Natalie in between. Oh no, Natalie, I'm sorry.
Do you want me to do mine? Yeah? Always and forever.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
Okay, here's mine.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
This I got.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
I was watching forensic files as we all. I think,
I swear to God. I think someone just very recently
tweeted at me, do you watch forensic files?

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
I'm not kidding Karen and the ansact about this.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
The answer is yes, if there's a policeman in it,
I've at least watched it one time.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
That's the rule.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
Also, people are recommending BBC things we don't have it yet.
Don't ask me if it's the brand New's Okay, take
this out this, I've gone too far. Okay, I'm watching
forensic files and I have a recovered memory of the
best forensic files I've ever seen. And I'm like how
come I haven't done this one before? That's insane.

Speaker 4 (01:10:26):
I love.

Speaker 3 (01:10:27):
I love when that happens, right, and you're like, oh
my god, why haven't I And it's like a big
so this.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
When I watched this on Forensic Files the first time,
I remember standing up and going like no way or something.
It was one of those.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
So I was like so excited. I got to look
this up, gotta.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
Find my info. And it is insane and it's an
la one.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
I want everyone to know that the word insane, by
Karen's hand gestures was written in lights. You did the
written in lights? A crop of it was like a
Liza Minelli Broadway move. It was like, if yeah, like
a cartoon, then could put up sparkly lights clean that'said insane.
That's said insane was gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
Okay, so this is the pillow Pyro.

Speaker 3 (01:11:15):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
I read right, so you may remember this. I don't know,
you're a little too young. Throughout the eighties and southern California,
there was a spate of arson fires that killed families.
It cost tens of millions of dollars, went on for
years and baffled authorities, and sometimes arson fires were being

(01:11:39):
set up to three times a day. Holy shit in
the Southland, as they like to call it on the
news here in Los Angeles.

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):
One TV show that got canceled in Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
Southland, The Best starring Sean Hattisey. Okay, so all of
this is I'm retelling you of forensic Files. That's one
of my favorites. That's where I get the chronologies, some
of the wording whatever. But also within that forensic files
they talked to. One of the talking heads is a
famous crime writer and he was also ex LAPD detective.

(01:12:12):
He was a detective for the LAPD for twenty years.
His name is Joseph Wambaugh, and he wrote a book
called fire Lover. So if you really want like the
Deep Down Story, which I would highly recommend, I think
I want to read this book. After I got those
two monsters.

Speaker 3 (01:12:27):
I'm listening to it. That's kind of my thing that
I was happy about this week. I know it's not, no,
it's not, but yes, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
Not everything else, but you have been listening to you
started listening, so like all around the house, I can't stop.

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
I forgot to mention this in the beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Okay, we'll have to talk about it after Okay, okay
about fire Lover's next because this story is so fucking crazy. Okay,
But as I wrote, I'm taking the chronology and the
shape of the story from the forensic file. Okay, okay,
So this episode starts, and so I shall start on

(01:13:00):
October tenth, nineteen eighty four, because it's very good storytelling.
Just started on the day that the San Diego Padres
are playing the Detroit Tigers in the World Series.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
Oh, everyone remembers that, Actually that Vince currumbers exactly where I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
Sure he does, right, Troit boy, and I believe they
were playing in San Diego. So or maybe not.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
No, no, no, oh, that's fence.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
It doesn't matter, Steven, Steven Stephen. Okay, So it starts
on October tenth, nineteen eighty four. The San Diego Padres
are playing the Detroit Tigers in the World Series. And
there's a hardware store in South Pasadena called Olie's. I
don't know if you remember that chain of hardware stores.
It's like, you know it sands No, it's basically like
old school home depot. So they interview a guy named

(01:13:47):
Jim Obdam who worked there in high school, and he's
talking about how he notices nobody's there because the World
Series and the Padres are playing in the World Series,
so every there's no business except for like a few
people scattered around the store. So he hears an emergency
message over the PA and then the fire alarm starts
going off, and so he looks. He goes out into

(01:14:10):
like the aisle and looks down and there's a huge
plume of smoke coming from like the back of the
store whatever, And so he turns and he starts helping
the few customers that are there to try to get
them out the fire exit doors, and as they're trying
to walk toward it, it's just becomes a wall of
flames and the entire store is like up and fully engulfed,

(01:14:32):
like immediately. He said, it happened so fast. He got
out of the store, but he had really bad burns
on one arm. He said, he touched his arm and
skin just came off.

Speaker 3 (01:14:42):
No, no, yes, So he gets out, but four people
trapped in and killed in that fire.

Speaker 2 (01:14:55):
Two customers, grandmother ate a Deal and her two year
old grandson, Matthew Troudel, And then two employees, seventeen year
old Jamie Setina and twenty six year old Carolyn Krause.

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):
They all died in that fire.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
My god. So the official explanation was that it was
an electrical fire, but the arson investigator from the Glendale
Fire Department was on the scene. He believed it was
arson right off the bat. He took pictures, he documented
the whole scene. When they were saying we think it's
an electrical fire, he was arguing with them. So then

(01:15:32):
January nineteen eighty seven, there's another fire at a different
Olie's hardware store. And this fire so this is like
three years later. Okay, tune and a half three years later.
This one is set in the foam padding section.

Speaker 3 (01:15:53):
Oh god. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
And then the same day, ninety miles away in Bakersfield,
there's a fire at a craft mart store. And in
the Bakersfield Fire Captain Marvin Casey arrives at the scene
at that fire and.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
He finds in a bin of dry.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
Flowers a slow burning and sundiary device which was three
matches wrapped around a lit cigarette with binder paper rubber
banded around the outside of all of it and then
put into the dry flowers.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
So when the cigarette gets down to the butt, it
lights the matches on fire.

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
Yep, and then the matches light the paper and it's
the whole thing is just this very rudimentary slow burning
in Sandia.

Speaker 3 (01:16:40):
You would never that, you would never look like notice
look for right exactly. I'm so sorry Elvis is eating
the French frise on the heller. Sorry, he's gonna vomit
those on the bed in the middle of the night.
If those are not thank you, Steven. I think we

(01:17:01):
should leave that in.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
So I don't know though, because you're like, I'm so
sorry Elvis is e like it's Stephen, go get that.

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):
I'm getting. I don't want to be rude. Shorge's feet
or above her head.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
She's so reclined.

Speaker 3 (01:17:19):
Oh, I have a pill of ta okay. Sorry, no, no, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
So they find that and send your advice in the
in the dried flowers, Marvin Casey does, and then on
the binder paper he finds a fingerprint. So he sends
that off to the lab and they're like, we have
to get that fingerprint. But is the eighties, remember, so
everything's like dear xerox. It's the xerox version of everything.

(01:17:47):
Everything's a fax machine, a carbon machine of a carbon coffee.

Speaker 3 (01:17:52):
Yeah, it's like Ditto's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
So while Marvin Casey is at this scene that fire
the craft Smart store, he hears on the radio a
second fire breaks out at a different fabric store in Bakersfield. Fuck.
So they investigators that went to that fire founded that
that was also intentionally set with a slow burning and
sundiary device in the pillow and foam rubber section of

(01:18:19):
the store. There were other suspicious fires in the neighboring
towns north of Bakersfield to Lauri and Fresno. So it's
basically all these cities up and down Highway ninety nine,
which is basically in California.

Speaker 3 (01:18:33):
There's the five that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
Goes up and down the entire state, which is what
you drive when you're going from La to San Francisco
and you want to go ninety five miles an hour
the whole time.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
The ninety nine is in is further east and it's.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
More of a two lane highway, and you take that
one when you're just smoking a bunch of grass. So
Marvin Casey hears the reports on the radio, and then
he remembers there's an arsen Investigator's convention in Fresno that weekend.

Speaker 3 (01:19:01):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:19:02):
And so he realizes that all of these fires are
going up and down the ninety nine, ending in Fresno,
because Fresno is the northernmost of all the cities that
that was happening in. And so he goes he's thinking,
what if this arsonist is a fireman? And he goes
to his bosses and and and explains this theory to them,

(01:19:26):
and they're like, you're fucking crazy. That's insane. It's that's
not true. Like you know, they're they're so not into
that theory.

Speaker 3 (01:19:34):
They were like, think inside the matchbox, co on, but
he was thinking outside the match box. Oh, oh, I
get it. God. They basically say he's crazy. Okay, that's
what they say.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
So, uh so they find matching, slow burning, and sundiary
devices that match the craft mart and the only fires.
Then they take the print. He takes a print that's found,
it's entered into a but there's no matches in the
national database. So he asks if he can cross check

(01:20:07):
all the fingerprints of the people who are at that
arson investigation convention with this one fingerprint, and they say no,
they said, your theory is impossible. Under the iculis Okay.
So two years later, in March of nineteen eighty nine,
there's another space of fires. This one's up and down
the one to one and it's further north. Marvin Casey

(01:20:30):
once again sees that there's an arson investigation symposium in
Pacific Grove. So this is up by Monterey from what
I looked on the map, unless there's another Pacific Grove.
So basically, what Marvin Casey does is he narrows down
a list of ten people who were at the first
Arson Symposium and the most recent arsen Symposium. I don't

(01:20:55):
know if that's correct termology.

Speaker 3 (01:20:56):
I would have guessed that he was that whoever was
doing the fires was like mocking them or fucking with
the people the firefighters at the symposium could be, but
he didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:21:06):
You mean like burning nearby, like you can't get Yeah, yeah,
like you guys are all hearing yet I'm still there. Well,
anything's possible at this point, except except for my possibility.

Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
That's no, you're right, I mean I think that's just
so fascinating. Yeah, to be thought of.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
That, right, Uh Okay, So he makes the list of
the ten people who are at both and he finally
they start working there's been so many fires. At this point,
they bring in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms

(01:21:41):
and so he gets ATF to cross check the fingerprints
with the one found on the incendiary device. There's no match,
so it confirmed that Marvin Casey's theory is no good.
His bosses are like, Okay, are you gonna drop this now?
Because that was your chance to prove it and your
theory is wrong. So then two years later, in June

(01:22:04):
of nineteen ninety, bear's the College Hills fire. This is
a fire that was in those hills above Glendale. It
burned sixty seven houses. Oh, it's one of the biggest
wildfires in California history, and it was proven to be arson.

Speaker 3 (01:22:20):
So by the year's end, by the end of nineteen
ninety it was clear that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:24):
This arsonist was at it again, and finally the ATF
assigned Special Agent I'm doing it too, Special Agent Mike
Matassa to the case. He in starting to work on
it and look through all of the evidence of the facts,
finds out about Marvin Casey's theory and he thinks it's
a good theory.

Speaker 3 (01:22:43):
So he he goes back.

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
He sees that the fingerprint didn't match anybody's, so he
has the idea that this time he's going to cross
check that one fingerprint with anyone who's ever applied for
a job with the city.

Speaker 3 (01:22:58):
So instead of being those speci.

Speaker 2 (01:23:00):
Civic dudes, it's just if it is a fireman or
whoever it could possibly be, will know if we cross
check it with the city fingerprints.

Speaker 3 (01:23:08):
It could be a fucking fire receptionist.

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
Receptionist, it could be the fucking Dalmatian. Why didn't you
notice that there were five little pads.

Speaker 3 (01:23:20):
That's those points points of.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
Comparison or whatever they call it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:26):
Okay, So.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
So yeah, because you have to get your finger printed
when you apply for a job with the city, comes
back with the match. The match is a man named
John Or, who is the Arson investigator for the Glendale
Fire Department.

Speaker 3 (01:23:44):
The first scene, second scene.

Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
Yes, at the first story, I told it's the guy
that was there immediately saying this is Arson.

Speaker 3 (01:23:51):
He was calling it out as Arson. Yes, yes, tell
me everything, Okay, this is okay.

Speaker 2 (01:23:58):
At this point when they do this and forensic files,
I was like, wait, so what because they do it
so perfectly that you're like, but who could this be?
This is super weird, or it's someone that wants to
be a fireman.

Speaker 3 (01:24:08):
Yeah, because it wouldn't be the person that just makes
no sense of the person. They're be like, it was Urson,
I know because I did it. Like that doesn't right,
You're like, you're kind of stupid or you're so smart.

Speaker 2 (01:24:18):
Well, it's it's it's that thing of like how serial
killers get so narcissistic and so you know, they're psychopaths,
so they think they're smarter than everybody. They don't think
they're ever going to get caught.

Speaker 3 (01:24:32):
And they really are.

Speaker 2 (01:24:34):
It's part of the uh joy of doing it is
being setting it and then being the first one there
to explain to everybody how it.

Speaker 3 (01:24:43):
Happened, or showing up and thinking someone else is going
to be like it's Urson, but everyone else like it's naturally.
It's like, no, give me credit for how smart I am. Yes,
they're just saying it's a fucking no.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):
Look around, is.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
Real smart over here?

Speaker 2 (01:24:58):
Look over in the pillows.

Speaker 3 (01:25:00):
Okay, So.

Speaker 2 (01:25:02):
Here's the deal with John Orr. He applied to be
a Los Angeles policeman. First, he all his life wanted
to be a policeman. He passed every test except for
the psychological exam. Can't be that hard to cheat. I
mean his psych profile. Here's the quote from it, from

(01:25:23):
the results of that test. It says he's a schizoid
person who is withdrawn from people and may have sexual
confusion on his orientation.

Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
That comes out in a COP test. I don't I
want to take it. Can we get the LAPD to
send us to cop tests?

Speaker 2 (01:25:41):
Not the one where you have to climb over a
wall dry? No, no, no, no, not when I fucking
hate you know, when they scrambled straight up like a
wooden wall.

Speaker 3 (01:25:48):
Yeah, I want to light that wall on that wouldn't
wan on fire? Yes, with a slow burning in Sunday here,
and take a psychological test where I go sit indoors
in the air conditioning and pass it and pass it.
Was flying in colors, Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):
So then he applies to be an LA fire department, okay,
a fireman. He applies to be the department. He wants
to become the entire department. He applies to be a
fireman in LA. But he can't pass the physical the yeah,
which I mean could anyone for real? Because also it's
not just being a fireman, but you're in a fireman

(01:26:22):
in La Oh my god, where it's kind of like
the cream of the crop anyway, in terms of people,
a lot of people come here with big muscles.

Speaker 3 (01:26:30):
Sure, yeah, just an email Karen if you have big
If you're one of those, how big.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
Are your muscles, let me know, Yeah, because I'm super
into that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:41):
I know that's what you're into a big muscles. Totally okay.

Speaker 2 (01:26:49):
So he doesn't pass the physical, he's crushed, so then
he kind of like lays low for a while. Then
he applies to the Glendale Fire Department, which is tony
and exciting and statusy obviously than the lie Fire Department
and probably easier to get into. So he gets in

(01:27:09):
and he actually does very well, and he quickly is
promoted to captain and then eventually to arson investigator.

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
So John Orr was also on.

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):
Marvin Casey's list of the ten people who were at
both of those ARCU conferences. Yep, and the end later on,
they found that the only reason his fingerprint didn't match
it was just like a lab mistake. It was the
same fingerprint, So that was almost And also then I thought, ooh,
or did somebody go this can't get out or this

(01:27:45):
can't be found out, sure, although that'd be insane because
then it's like, but then we'll let all of Glendale
byurn just to just to hide this one fact.

Speaker 3 (01:27:55):
Maybe what happening in.

Speaker 2 (01:27:58):
Bang It six seven houses. So after seven years of
arson fires, they finally have a suspect, but the fingerprint
only puts him at one of the fires, so they
have to put him under surveillance. So it's so hilarious.
In this forensic files, they talk all about GPS versus

(01:28:18):
the tracker that they use on his car, and they're
explaining GPS because no one knew what it was this
man talking about like satellite technology as such, where I
was like, oh my god, we live like in this
triple future totally compared to nineteen ninety three or whenever, Okay, totally,
it's just so weird.

Speaker 3 (01:28:38):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
So this is basically what happened, and I wish I
couldn't find anything else about the specifics of this day,
and I so wish I could also I tried. I'll
talk about it. After they find his car. They locate,
so they put a tracker on his car and they
find Once they get all this information, they're like, find
him now he has to be off the street, you know.

(01:29:01):
They find that he's not the Warner Brothers a lot
in Burbank, and soon after they locate his car there
a fire breaks out on one of the TV show sets.

Speaker 3 (01:29:12):
Are you O kidding?

Speaker 2 (01:29:12):
Man?

Speaker 3 (01:29:13):
I swear to God? And I was like, which one
was it?

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
Alf, Like, you don't know?

Speaker 3 (01:29:17):
I thought you were gonna make me guess.

Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
No, I wish I could. Someone's got to know this,
Someone's got to know. And that's what I was gonna say.
It could be in There was a made for HBO
movie called Point of Origin starring Rayleiota playing this guy,
and I'm I'm sure it's in there, but the only
I could find no versions of it, not on HBO,
go nowhere, not on YouTube. There's a version of it.

(01:29:41):
Have you ever seen this? Where people illegally upload movies
and so they put it into almost like a mortis,
so it's it's a TV screen like yours, but turned
to the side. The speed of the movie is speeded
up like times two, so it's Raleiota being like, get
over here and take a look at this out like.

Speaker 3 (01:29:59):
Everything's going Really, I have no idea about that.

Speaker 2 (01:30:01):
And also there's an Asian girl standing there with a
remote control pointed at the TV like that's all static,
and then the movie's happening in the screen. You have
to see it. It's hilarious. You look, if you look
up point of Origin.

Speaker 3 (01:30:14):
Okay, that's how nice that's in nineteen nineties. Rip off
of a movie is Yes, that's how you pirate a movie.
In nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 2 (01:30:23):
I tried to watch it for like four minutes and
I was like, this is not fucking worth it. I
feel like I'm about to go insane. Okay, So anyway,
but someone can and I bet you in that they
say exactly what show they're on. So anyhow, he leaves. Okay,
So basically they find that he's at the Warner Brothers lot.
Then they get the alarm. A fire is broken out
on the Warner Bars on fire.

Speaker 3 (01:30:45):
ELF's burning, his whole.

Speaker 2 (01:30:46):
Back is on fire. Someone get over there right away,
which is funny because there is a fire department on
the Warner Brothers lot. There's actually like a fire truck
and a firehouse and everything right there. Anyhow, ask me anything.
So they track him driving away from the Warner Brothers lot,
and then when he gets the official call on his

(01:31:06):
radio at home. He drives back, but the radio operator
gave the wrong address, so she's like, there's a fire
at Diddy Diddy Do he drives straight back to the
Warner Brothers lot.

Speaker 3 (01:31:17):
They did that on purpose?

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):
Yes, well, they say it was They say they make
it sound like it was it was the dispatcher's mistake.
But I bet you that was the test. Yeah, because
you don't need to know the address of the Warner
Brothers a lot. It's like the main thing in Bourbon totally. Anyhow,
that's when they knew it was absolutely him, because he,
being given a different address, still went to where the

(01:31:39):
fire was. So they're like, arrest him now. So that's
they're like, all right, I just said that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:46):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:31:48):
So they get a search warrant, first home and car,
and then inside a prefcase they find matches, binder, paper, cigarettes,
and rubber bax. He claims it's a coincidence and that
he's totally innocent. In his home they find home video
that starts with the shot of a beautiful hillside home
and that it's like it runs like that for like

(01:32:08):
a couple of minutes and then it stops and it
starts up again to eat the same home eighteen months later,
burning to the ground. So he was all like.

Speaker 3 (01:32:18):
Planned eighteen months. Eighteen months, He's planned it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:23):
It's so crazy, Okay. So then they also find in
his house a manuscript for a book called Points of
Origin that he's writing.

Speaker 3 (01:32:31):
He go ahead, he wrote it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:34):
He's writing a book about what do you think the
book's about?

Speaker 3 (01:32:38):
Where he's from in Europe? His point of origin.

Speaker 2 (01:32:41):
M it's a book about an arsen investigator who's actually
really a serial arsonist?

Speaker 3 (01:32:46):
Is does ray Laota in the book version? Play him already?
What do you mean in the book version? Because real
never that's the movie name from the HBO. That's exactly right.
So he's writing it.

Speaker 2 (01:33:01):
Well, yeah, but it's not. She didn't write the movie
version because.

Speaker 3 (01:33:05):
A well, ll'll just use his He even said Cassarelia,
So we're gonna do it.

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):
No, They basically go to his house and find a
script that is his story, but with a different name.
The arson investigator's name is Aaron Styles. But here's the
there's a list of similarities between the book and the
facts of the case. Both are firefighters, both are non smokers.

(01:33:31):
This is from like a legal document. Both use a
delay and cndiary device to sign to fully ignite the fire,
approximately time to fifteen minutes after the device is in place.
In one draft of the manuscript, it describes a match
attached to a cigarette and placed inside a paper bag,
similar to the actual facts of the binder paper match

(01:33:52):
of the binder paper. Both start fires and retail stores
located in Los Angeles during business hours. Both place the
incendiary device incombustible materials located in the store. Both start
fires in the drapery section at a Los Angeles fabric store.
Both start fires in display of styrofoam products.

Speaker 3 (01:34:09):
Oh my god, both start.

Speaker 2 (01:34:11):
Fires and hardware stores. Both start fires in several retail
stores and close proximity to one another within a short
span of time. On the same day. Both start fires
in the same locations while both the character and the
actual arsonist were traveling to or from arsen investigators' conferences
in Fresno.

Speaker 3 (01:34:29):
So he's like, he's admitting to the whole thing. Yeah,
in a stupid script.

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
It's basically a script called My Diary of being a
serial Arsenist.

Speaker 3 (01:34:36):
And he does he say it's a coincidence. Yeah, it's
such a strange coincidence.

Speaker 2 (01:34:40):
But what's not in that document, but what is in
the script is that his lead character sets these fires
and then writes about watching them with an erection or
while masturbating, And one scene in the manuscript, he can't
get an.

Speaker 3 (01:34:58):
Erection until he starts a what if that were what
if that were true?

Speaker 2 (01:35:03):
What if that you were your thing? What if that
was your thing? What if you couldn't how do you
figure that out? And then how do you make it work?
And then like, don't, well, you know what it is,
Just don't get an erection anymore. It's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:35:16):
I don't know. I don't know if that's I don't
know if that's fine. That's not an option for some people.
Who would it be for? I mean, look, listen, listen.

Speaker 2 (01:35:27):
At one point in the book, he describes his lead
character raping and killing a woman and then burning her
in her car. Authorities found a similar case where the
body of a woman was found raped and murdered in
a burnt out car, but they couldn't find any hard
evidence to connect john Or with that crime. Also in
the book, the main character talked about setting several fires

(01:35:48):
at once so that the fireman would be overwhelmed, allowing
him to watch one of the fire fires burned freely
until it was totally out of control.

Speaker 3 (01:35:57):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:35:58):
And that same character also talked about one of the
victims of one of the fires he sets being a
two year old boy named Matthew.

Speaker 3 (01:36:07):
Are you serious?

Speaker 2 (01:36:10):
So the exact victim of one of his fires he's
writing about in this script, and that was the detail
that cinched it for the investigators. They were just like So,
he's arrested, and he's charged with numerous counts of arson
and four counts of first degree murder. In nineteen ninety eight,
he's sentenced to life in prison plus twenty years without
the possibility of parole. He has never admitted that he's guilty,

(01:36:34):
which is one of the many signs that he's a psychopath.
He's motivated by his ego, by delusions of grandeur. He
believes that he's smarter and better than everyone, no remorse,
no guilt, and he's a great actor and highly manipulative.
There's actually I've found a couple clips of him talking

(01:36:55):
he got interviewed before he got caught being interviewed and
talking on the news about one of fires and he's.

Speaker 3 (01:37:06):
You would he's master people.

Speaker 2 (01:37:07):
The way he speaks, even though he's not like that
exciting of a person, you can tell how he is
like so kind of strangely alluring. He's very sharp, very
clear eyed, and very like knows all the details. He's
a real.

Speaker 3 (01:37:21):
Expert, really really interested in what Yeah crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:37:29):
So atf agent Mike Mantasa believes it. Between nineteen eighty
four and nineteen ninety one, John Or set at least
two thousand fires and perhaps up to ten thousand fires.

Speaker 3 (01:37:41):
Fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:37:42):
Some arsenal investigators and an FBI criminal profiler have deemed
Or to be one of the worst American serial arsonists
of the twentieth century. Before his arrest, the average number
of brush fires in the hills above Glendale and Burbank
were sixty seven. A year after his arrest, that number
dropped two three. Oh my fucking gosh. So he was

(01:38:03):
doing all of them for almost a decade. It was
all him, essentially. Uh oh. And then I just started
watching a video about what it actually means to be
a psychopath, because we've had so many discussions about psychopaths, sociopath, yeah,
all the different languages that we use, and it's basically

(01:38:25):
the psychopath. What I think is super interesting is that
they have absolutely no empathy or connection to other people's feelings.
And it's a thing where like to imagine, like you
could kind of break down of like, so you're an arsonist,
You're you have like almost like a sexual fetish for fire,
so you're forced to set these fires. That's one thing

(01:38:46):
where you're just like you can't control it to set
a fire during business hours of a large business and
then four people get trapped inside that fire and die,
and you still write about.

Speaker 3 (01:38:58):
Them like it's fiction.

Speaker 2 (01:38:59):
It's just this fun idea you have, Like, he has
absolutely no connection to other human beings.

Speaker 3 (01:39:06):
Does that mean that does that mean that they don't
have feelings like us either, Like if you can't be
empathetic towards other people's feelings, does it mean you don't
know what it's like to be sad, You don't all
what it's like to be happy or angry or No.

Speaker 2 (01:39:19):
I think they have their own feelings, they just don't understand.
So this is kind of interesting and this could be
completely off, but but this is my own personal theory
because my therapist is really into like all that brain
research and how like a lot of times we blame
ourselves for just what our natural brain does. So like

(01:39:41):
people are like, I'm super anxious, but actually, like our
brain are amygdala that like is set to it trains
us to look for for predators constantly. So if you're
not thinking about the past, if you're not like going
over what you did the last time you tried to
go hunt a bison or whatever, then if you're in

(01:40:02):
the present, you're just scanning for danger. And that's our
natural brain set. It's either excuse me, reviewing the past
for mistakes or scanning the present or possible future for danger.
These days, people think that means I'm crazy, when it's like, no, no,
that's the natural set point of your brain.

Speaker 3 (01:40:19):
I'm anxious, and it's like, no, you're just constantly scanning
for things that could go wrong, right, And maybe you're
overdoing it because of whatever reasons, but normal to be
like that.

Speaker 2 (01:40:28):
But I think part of the reason people think they're
overdoing it is because people think they're supposed to be
at some zen neutral nothing where it's like no, an
active mind is a natural thing, especially a mind that's
like be careful, be careful, be careful.

Speaker 3 (01:40:42):
That makes me feel better.

Speaker 2 (01:40:44):
Yeah, it's like why we're alive. It's why we our
ancestors lived, and other people died because that part of.

Speaker 3 (01:40:50):
Their brain didn't work as well.

Speaker 2 (01:40:51):
Yeah, motherfuckers, it's not as bad as you think. But
so this other part, there's lots of theory that she
told me that made me very happy. But the other
one was this thing called mirror neurons that they're just
kind of now like doing research on and understanding. But
it's the thing of like when you watch one of
those videos of a soldier coming home and his dog
losing its shit right, and it just makes you cry,

(01:41:15):
that's because that's not happening to you.

Speaker 3 (01:41:17):
But your brain doesn't know that.

Speaker 2 (01:41:19):
Because your brain is watching another human being which it
looks like you and seems like you go through and
experience that, the mirror neuron goes, this is what it
feels like when this happens. And then like right now,
I'm getting tingles thinking about those videos because my brain goes,
it's you when you are taking in that information. The
way your brain processes.

Speaker 3 (01:41:40):
Is that you're having these emotions that that person's having
exactly because you're empathetic and you can understand exactly, and that's.

Speaker 2 (01:41:46):
How we stay connected, and that's how we make sure
we have food every night. And shelter is because you
need human connection to survive. Like it's tribe mentality, it's
survival instincts psychopaths have.

Speaker 3 (01:42:00):
Well I shouldn't say that, because that's now I'm making
sit up, But one would say that they don't. They're
not have that ability.

Speaker 2 (01:42:06):
We know. I was about to say they don't have mirinrons.
I know nothing about but brain chemistry or anything. But
we know for a fact they don't have empathy. So
when they watch a soldier come home and its dog
loses its shit and all those things, they just are
watching a video of two things touching each other. So
it's not like they get mad. He clearly has sexual feelings.
He has he wants to be famous, he wrote this thing,

(01:42:28):
He wants different things. He just has no connectors to
the people around him, and know he doesn't understand if
something happens to that person it feels the same to
them as it doesn't say that happens to him.

Speaker 3 (01:42:42):
Wow, that's heavy.

Speaker 2 (01:42:45):
I over explained that, but I really felt like an expert.
And sometimes you just want to keep on feeling like
an expert.

Speaker 3 (01:42:51):
If there's any corrections, scornish or that save it.

Speaker 2 (01:42:55):
Just let me be right this one time.

Speaker 3 (01:42:57):
Have some empathy. If you have empathy and correct corner that.
Come on, I'm gonna go ahead and say you were right.

Speaker 2 (01:43:04):
Thank you. I mean I think I was at least
in the ballpark this time.

Speaker 3 (01:43:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:43:07):
Well, also because I watch are really good. There's some
real good videos. This can be my good thing of
the week. Okay, it's I found these videos that are
just you know those ones they explain something with an illustration.
So there's someone talking about it's being drawn.

Speaker 3 (01:43:23):
Yes, I got it. Now you put an arrow to
a thing.

Speaker 2 (01:43:27):
Yes, And suddenly it's clear you just have a little
Ikia guy that's actually acting it out.

Speaker 3 (01:43:32):
Now I get it. He has a happy face and
a sad face. Yeah, and that's how you know how
he's feeling.

Speaker 2 (01:43:36):
But no hair for some reason. Too much. So I
found a series of videos by the people who make them,
is called psych to the Number two Go. And so
it's like, what does it mean to be a psychopath,
or how to know if you're dating a sociopath, or

(01:43:56):
you know how to deal with your anxiety whatever. But
then I'm like, what is to go? I've never heard
of you before, so I start looking into that. It
brings me to a website that says psychology Buy Millennials
formal I'll.

Speaker 3 (01:44:09):
Get and then it kicked you out. It's like, enter
your birthdate, get out of here, Grandma, this is U
had end to your birthday and it's like, eh, start out.

Speaker 2 (01:44:18):
Sorry. It made me laugh so hard that it's like,
finally psychology for me, psychology I can relate to you. Yeah,
but actually it seems like a good website.

Speaker 4 (01:44:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44:32):
I was just trying to make sure it wasn't like
secretly scientology.

Speaker 3 (01:44:35):
Sure, and then I was like, and anyways, kill kill
kill Karen and.

Speaker 2 (01:44:41):
Then send us the money.

Speaker 3 (01:44:42):
Yeah, No, it wasn't that. That's sweet. My positive thing
is that it's an are going away for my birthday
for a couple of days, and I just can't wait
to get out of the city and go antiquing. I'm
gonna eat so much food. Maybe they'll be massage in there.
Oh hey, out of town two. That's gonna be so nice.

Speaker 2 (01:45:05):
And you're gonna be by the ocean, right, Yeah, So
you get to have some some of them negative ions,
which is real good for you. If that happened, that's
the ocean air. That's why ocean air always feels good
and like makes you feel refreshed. It's them negative ions
that we don't get in this polluted city.

Speaker 3 (01:45:23):
I'm into it. All right, We're back, Karen. Do you
have any updates? I do, so let's see.

Speaker 2 (01:45:31):
Well. John Orr continues to serve a life sentence. He
still maintains his innocence. He claims that he had an
ironclad alibi but his lawyers wouldn't listen, and that he
pleaded guilty to save his wife, who is now his
fourth ex wife, from bankruptcy. So kind of interesting. Apple
TV has a twenty twenty five series called Smoke that

(01:45:52):
was inspired by this story, and tarn Edgerton, who's the
guy that played Elton John, is the star. And then
Jerny Smollett, who you might remember from love Craft Country
so good in that so she's the detective. And then
tarin Edgerton is the fire and investigator with the dark
past and they hunt down some serial arsonists. And also

(01:46:15):
there's a podcast called Firebug from twenty twenty one and
it chronicles the investigation into these fires through interviews and
excerpts from that manuscript that or wrote. So that story
is just so crazy. I will always remember learning about
it and then just being like, this cannot be real.

Speaker 3 (01:46:35):
Yes, beyond the audacity of evil is just like beyond
comprehension for people who aren't evil, which is I guess
why we do this right?

Speaker 2 (01:46:45):
And like sitting in when you live in the valley
and you look at that hillside all the time and
they were catching on fire constantly, it was just like
it became this just well, this is just how it is,
and there must be a scientific reason and a natural
kind of reason. Instead it's the fucking fire. The fire

(01:47:06):
chief's doing it just wild.

Speaker 3 (01:47:08):
All right, let's head back in to wrap up the show. Okay,
by no, wait, that was fun. Should we wrap it up?
I feel like we didn't wrap it up correctly. That's good.
I like your fire story, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:47:23):
Yeah, I'm gonna watch that.

Speaker 3 (01:47:24):
The whole time. In my mind, I was like picturing
how the forensic files would look. Yeah, so as you
were telling to me, I was like, oh, yeah, then
this thing would happen like how bad The like reenactments
probably were from the nineties, And.

Speaker 2 (01:47:36):
Yes, there was a lot of They had a lot
of home video.

Speaker 3 (01:47:39):
Oh okay, the Dawn of like real because it was
his home video.

Speaker 2 (01:47:43):
Yes, he would go to the fucking fires and set
up his video camera, dude or his He had a
lot of like hard copy photos. Fuck. Yeah, it's the craziest.
Like I think that might be my favorite is the
person that's been wearing a mask and then doing horrifying

(01:48:04):
things and no one knows and like it's almost like
people don't want to know.

Speaker 3 (01:48:08):
Yeah, I wish someone would talk to him. It's crazy
that he's still alive and like housle this information but
won't even like admit to it so we can like
figure him out.

Speaker 2 (01:48:19):
Oh no, in his mind, he's it's another one of
those things. He's being victimized. He's completely innocent. He has
never admitted to anything, so I wonder what that is
all about too. He's a psychopath. They don't admit they're there,
even if he does, he know he did it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
How can you think he's tricking anyone? He's in Joe
Larus's life. I guess well, he did trick people for

(01:48:42):
so long and it's the that's part of the mental illness,
is like they're they think they're the kind of the
king of the world. Well shit, I mean, fuck, don't
do it. Look stay away if you do anything. If
you don't do anything, please to be light everything on fire.

(01:49:02):
Yeah right, yes, now you've heard me say that a
milik is not your lower back.

Speaker 3 (01:49:09):
It wraps all the way.

Speaker 2 (01:49:10):
Around my haunch, your hat, your cackles, I get my
cockles up.

Speaker 3 (01:49:22):
Okay, we're back.

Speaker 2 (01:49:24):
So this episode was originally named Stephen It Out, which
we were basically using Stephen's name as a substitute for editing.
And so if we were going to name it today,
what would we call it?

Speaker 3 (01:49:39):
Georgia? We call it bitch color wheel Hell yeah, the
different ways to be a bitch, A beautiful rainbow. Oh
and then of course my birthday wish for myself learned
to levitate. Yes, live it, love it.

Speaker 2 (01:49:54):
Learned to Levitate was one of my the funniest things,
not only funniest things you've ever said.

Speaker 3 (01:49:59):
Made me laugh so hard.

Speaker 2 (01:50:00):
But then somebody made that unbelievable graphic for it that
had like a tree line, a beautiful kind of like nature.
That was one of the first things I think I
saw it on Facebook where I'm like Oh my god,
they're paying attention to what we're saying and then making things.

Speaker 3 (01:50:15):
Because if you ask me what the dumbest thing I've
said on this podcast is, it's that I don't understand
why you liked it, why anyone liked it. It's just
because that's.

Speaker 2 (01:50:24):
Just it's you being a fast brain, which is always fun.
But then it was like you were just yes, anding
you were yes, ending something dumb and then being like,
and this is what I'm all about or what.

Speaker 3 (01:50:34):
It was hilarious. It was just hilarious. Just try it,
Try this, to try saying the stupid thing everyone. You
never know what It'll end up on a T.

Speaker 2 (01:50:41):
Shirt and who fucking cares anyway, Right, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:50:44):
Well, thanks for listening. We're gonna let me me silently
say goodbye. Way back in twenty seventeen. Thanks for listening,
you guys. You guys are the fucking sweetest. You're number one,
number one, Stephen, Thank you, Stephen.

Speaker 2 (01:51:01):
Thank you for all your accents this week.

Speaker 3 (01:51:05):
I'm pretty good. Thanks. Oh there was a moment of thinking, Mimi,
thank you for your input this week. Come on now
this one, MEMI, All right, Mimi's like, no, that's not
I'm not that one. No comment, and I think while
I did that, I broke this microphone.

Speaker 2 (01:51:22):
So that was great, thanked it right down.

Speaker 3 (01:51:27):
Well, thanks for listening to you guys. Yeah, stay sexy
and don't get murdered. Elvis one cookie, MEMI, one cookie
that was Elvis.

Speaker 2 (01:51:43):
Okay, bye,

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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 72: Steven It Out

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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