Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 75: Breakfast Wine - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello, Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new
commentary and insights and updates.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Today we're recapping episode seventy five, which we named Breakfast Wine.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
This episode came out June twenty ninth, twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
All right, let's get into it. Let's listen to the
intro of episode seventy five.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Karen, Yes, Hi, is this an ad?

Speaker 1 (00:44):
No?

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Can I talk to you about a food delivery system? Hey?

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Your mouth and its delivery fo it's called your hands,
called your hand, tails mouth ork, and we're advertising that
to deliver that.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Shit open to your mouth. Hi, welcome to my favorite murder. Hi,
what can I get murdered? That's Karen. Hi, that's Karen,
and that's Georgia and you're yeah, yes, Hi, guys. Hi,
Thanks searching in and in. It's a late one tonight.
It's a late night. It's kind of a it's a sultry,

(01:16):
hot Los Angeles night. We have to record late because
of my work.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
We got some mood lighting that's actually not mood, it's
just lighting.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
It's just it's just a bit of lighting, pure lighting.
We've got an unsolved mysteries paused on the teeth shit
to turn that off.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
It looks like decoration, kind of can you get Okay,
So it's paused on like a woman walking through a graveyard.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
She's very eighty.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
She's got feathered hair and like a black flowy dress,
and she looks very forlorn.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
But she's also her dress is belted, and she's got
a great waist. Yeah, jealous of that.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
She looks amazing, and she clearly put on a lot
of blue eyeshadow before she went out.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
You had to back then. It was it was kind
of like your way of saying, ham out here, cars
don't run me over.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Like I'm single, I'm super sad, but I'm also like
living my life.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, you know, just because I'm at the cemetery, it
doesn't mean I'm not going to bring right one hundred Right.
I'm not saying they didn't have in the eighties. They didn't.
I'm not a mess.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
I always wonder, like, WHOA what would happen if you
went back in time, went to the eighties and then
like use the sayings from today people think you're cool
or insane or from Germany?

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Right, those are the only three choices. How are you?
I would like to go back to the eighties and
just tell myself, just.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
Relax a little bit. Oh my god, don't have to
talk somewhere. Yeah, I would like to say, stop fucking caring.
Stop caring.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
You can't do that though when you're a teen, No,
there's too many chemicals in your brain.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
But I was in elementary school and I wish i'd
stop caring. I haven't done new psychiatrists this week. And
she did this thing where she asked me questions like
a half an hour, which I love, but there were
all questions where I had to be like, yeah, I
guess I do feel like I had to admit a
lot of shit and like I had it. She was like,
and when we were a kid, how did I how

(03:06):
did you feel? And I'm like, well, I guess I
hated myself like I had the like yeah, you delayed
all on the line. This woman I just met, Yeah,
it's like this nice older one, like old nice lady
who ignored me completely. When I was like, well, my
sex drive's kind of down, she was just like moving
on in the next brauld not.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
She's like I'm not talking about that.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Wow, Well, she was Armenian too, like, so I think
she was just this like kind of proper nice Armenian woman.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
What if she was like, here's the thing, we're going
to cure that sex drive, and it's going to be
out of you entirely. You're going to be balls deep
and fucking Oh.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
No, if I it was sitting the opposite or she
was just like, we're going to that's all we're going
to concentrate on.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Is we're saving that for its own day? Yeah, separate
sex day. Yeah. God, I'd love to hear about that
when it happens. Sex day. Yeah, I mean today's right now?
Sex day? Is it? Oh? You got the cure? I
don't know what that meant. I don't either. I'm just
trying to improve your sex talk. Here. Look, here's the

(04:05):
first thing I need to tell you, Stephen and everybody
in America. Of course, there are Italian Jews. I know.
Of course there are Italian gem knew that we were kidding,
I mean I don't. I think I was just kind
of wondering aloud. But man, did the Italian Jews come
out and drow? So let me know that they exist?
Me too?

Speaker 1 (04:23):
And I have to quo oh fucking I'll have her name.
But someone wrote, of course there are Italian Jews. I'm
one of them.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Think of us as as the pizza bagels of religion.
And now she's just like whoa, that was perfect? Yeah, yeah,
Or isn't that racist? Well, if she is the one
saying it and it's her thing, doesn't she get to
describe herself however she wants?

Speaker 1 (04:47):
And also it's like, well, you're talking about a bagel,
which is a Jewish thing. You're talking about pizza, which
is an Italian thing, you know, traditionally, And so it's
not like.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
It's yes, it totally makes sense.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Anyways, Gone, it is a logical joke, my backtrack, and
it's a good joke.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Uh So yeah, that's I mean, we might need to
cut corrections corner out entirely. It keeps going this direction.
Corrections corner is that we're cutting out correct here's the
correction we need to make. We need to stop talking
about it. No, but this was a real, real good
email that Stephen just gave me. Uh. Subject line is

(05:25):
my dad was John Orr's partner. So this was I
think from two episodes ago. John Orr was the arsonist
Arson investigator in Glendale, California. It was Glendale, right, yeah. Okay, so,
uh so here's this email. Howdy Hey, howdy, Hey, that's
the greeting. So I'm driving to work and I have

(05:46):
been listening to your podcast from the beginning. I hadn't
listened in a few days, and I started off with
the mini episode and you started mentioning John Orr. My
mouth dropped open, and suddenly I was in a car
searching for the podcast where you talk about the arsenist
John Orr, and I couldn't believe it. We were talking
about a man who I grew up with, who was
my dad's partner at the fire station. My dad worked

(06:07):
for the Glendale Police Department, and the two were paired
up so that they would have a police officer and
a fireman to investigate possible fires that had been started
by arsonists. They were partners for six to ten years,
and we knew John and his family the entire time.
He had been setting fires right under my dad's nose.
My dad does recall that there were times when my

(06:27):
dad was the one who was on call for the
weekend in case of any fires were suspicious. They were
on call most of the time and would race to
the scene of the fire, and most of the time
John would show up saying things like I thought you
might need my help. My dad would get so annoyed,
but but we now know why he was there. My

(06:48):
dad and a few of the men with some of
the ten people with some of the ten people you
spoke of were board members of the CCAI California Conference
of ours investigators attended all of the Arson seminars in Fresno,
in Monterey, and as a matter of fact, they were
once John's peers. As I was listening to your podcasts,

(07:09):
I just wanted to scream and say, oh my gosh,
Oh my gosh. And I so badly wish I could
have called in all show. Yeah, we're going to do
one episode, right a Colin. I mean, that's so Lario.
It's just someone screaming, screaming, I know that is There

(07:29):
was so much this entire story. My dad stopped being
his partner before he was caught and arrested. My dad
did have to testify against him and was investigated because
John Orr was his partner. You spoke of him possibly
being a psychopath, and I recall my dad telling me
different stories about how different situations, how indifferent he would

(07:51):
act toward different things. So I think there's something too that,
a definite lack of empathy. I've never seen the forensic
files on his story, and I remember when the movies
was released. Of course, no one in my family saw it.
The book you spoke of was really disheartening because the
man who wrote it mentions my dad several times. Because
John spoke of my dad, John and the author were

(08:12):
not kind. The author of the book never once spoke
to my dad, and most of the book is John's opinion.
He is a psycho and deserves to be locked up
in jail for the rest of his life. I think
he is crazy because I never thought that there would
be anything that would speak of, oh, that you would
speak of, that would have anything to do with me
at all, And so you bring up the one story

(08:34):
that I could say anything about. I went to work
and told everyone the story. Still my jaws dropped open.
You left me speechless. Rock on with your bad selves,
and don't play with matches. That's all. Hugs from the
Sexy Murdery No Tea. Oh my god, I love it.
That's hilarious. That's crazy. I mean, the fucking chances. Well. Also,

(08:55):
I mean, as we now know pretty much everyone we
talked to, everybody had is one oh basically one step
away from a murderer, murderer experience.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
In my story tonight, there's there's a murdering no involvement
really yeah, which is like so exciting.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
That's very cool.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
I wanted to tell you speaking of one step away
and hand the mouth consumption.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
So you did the Zancu chicken.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Murders a while back, yeah, and uh Saylor, a couple
of nights ago or while back, Vince got Zangou chicken
and we of course got extra and saved the fucking
amazing garlic sauce that they give you with it. That's
like fucking none all over the city. I have made
a martini with it, with the garlic. Yeah, clearly it

(09:41):
was after one martini then, was it?

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Huh, it's good. I mean it was gross. It was good.
It was gross. You know what I mean. I'm just
trying to picture it. Was it like floating inside the martini?

Speaker 1 (09:52):
No, no, no, I like, I like stirred it up really well,
so it was like a garlic confused martini. Oh okay,
with the fucking garlic stuffed all of with it.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Well, that sounds good. Drink.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
It was like a dirty martini though with sankoo, chicken,
garlic sauce, kind of strong tasting good. I like garlic
because that sauces. I mean you taste it for days after. Yeah,
you belch that for fucking days. Good for you, though,
I just want to let you know I love it.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Anything else, I just want to bring up the hilarious
person who mentioned on Twitter yesterday or today, hey don't
you think Stephen kind of sounds like Tina Belcher and
I could not stop laughing. And then a barrage of
people were sending gifts of Tina Belcher going like, yeah, baby,
it was so hilarious. Let me hear it. Man, this

(10:41):
is a short fucking getting right into it. It's a
late night. Let's just do it a late night, all right.
This is a skipper's dream show.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
Come on, you don't even have to skip soon's first?

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Am I right? Whoo oh? I'm sorry, but good enough,
You're not good enough. This is the episode where we
tell you that, but this, but we're gonna do it
subtly through me naming who goes first. I know it's
tough to hear. I mean, I've always known.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
It's like, you're not telling elementary school Georgia anything now.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Oh no, let her come out. I want to speak
to eleven year old Georgia right now. Okay, tell her
to tell that psychiatrist that you want to talk about
sex asap? Is that creepy to talk about? I feel
like on my my own mom, when your mom talks
about sex, you're like, what my mom, Janet? What I
young my mom? Being the nurse, you'd always be like, girls,

(11:39):
it's natural, and we just be like, oh, it was
totally like a woman's body is. The chemicals in a
woman's body are very special. Women get have needs and
wants to.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Get me out of What about pool when you call
it the female orgasm, there's something about the risk the
female orgasm.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
Female orgasm has a little tank bow on the side. Oh,
it's adorable and quiet and it's just easy and it
smells like baby powder. Moving on.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Then you're got to move on from the day from
the real orgasm. That's right, the man orgasm, and we
won't call it the man orgasm. That's right, the orgasm,
but the female fries.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Up all right?

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Okay, So the other night I couldn't sleep, and as always,
I click on any fucking article that is about some
kind of case or murder or horrible thing that's going
to make me not be able to sleep yep, which
I already can't do.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Right. So I found one.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Called the eighteen creepy Murder Cases You've Never heard of
That'll fuck you up on BuzzFeed.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
And oh, I read that because you well, I read
one that was murder cases that You've never heard before
because I always love to read and be like I've
heard of it.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
It's just going to say, oh yeah, try me, I
was I always heard it, heard it or like, and
it's like the craziest like nine to one to one
call murders and it's like, I I knew that one
and it's not that crazy.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
And then you don't know what crazy is.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
Then you have the assholes in the comments that I
was like, he forgot this murder and it's like they
didn't forget it.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
They didn't put it in because it's not that you know, yes,
So it's almost like no matter what is, whoever's coming
towards that article is going to be an asshole, like
we are, yes.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
Exactly, and I was leading the pack, but shout out
because at least half of them I didn't know. So
this is from eighteen creepy murder cases you've never heard
of that'll fuck you up.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Okay, I almost did one on this list, I swear
to God, and at the last minute I just didn't
do it. This one's boring. I go ahead, I live
for the week we do the same murder.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
I know what happens, the world explodes, it's just where
it will be a ton of laughing, and then we'll, like,
I don't know, we'll do something totally different.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
And we'll never do the podcast the end. What if
Steven here it is Stephen, at some point in your
job that you are now currently being paid for, you
write up two murders and you keep them in a
file in your big backpack. And then if there's day
ever comes where we do the same murder, you pull
out the two mystery murders and then we have to

(14:13):
read those.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
No, because go ahead, just from like zero, like you're
just like here, you go, yep, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
You guys are good to know. But I love the
idea of usting the same murder. Would crack the fuck up.
We'd freak the fuck out, Like, how did we both
know this? I just would just do it simultaneously, as
opposed to one after the other. It would just be
like and then us have paragraph by paragraph. I think
it'd be so fun.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
I think people who don't like our speech patterns would
hate us, but I think it'd be really fun.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
I'm like looking forward to it. Okay, Stephen canceled that
assignment and instead, could you just pre prepare others murder?
You know what I want you to do.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
I want you to fucking get like one of those
I want you to get like party supplies, like loud making,
party supplies, glitter thing, and the day that we have
the same murder, I want you to fucking shoot glitteratus
and blow one of those blow yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
You know, and like put a party hat on all
of it. I know what that means, Stephen. That means,
since you never know when it could happen, you always
have to have a pocket full of glittering and a
blower in your other pocket. Party hats for all of us.
He's reaching you. I wish you guys could see Steven's
back back It is the biggest backpack I've ever seen.

(15:22):
It's a jam sport. I think it's standard sized, but
there's something about what carries in it or whatever he's
doing that it honestly looks like it looks like a four.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Year old baby and Mimi could fit in there. And
it's one of those ones that you see on like
the Late NIGHTMI. Its like, is your kid's backpack screwing up?

Speaker 2 (15:37):
It's back eleven to find out.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
I love that they would call the kid it and
screwing up.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
That's the that's the news I want to watch screwing
up its back Maybe you should get rid of it.
What a pain in the ass that thing.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Jesus is gonna have back problem now, just like you,
you fucking asshole.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Why are you reproducing? Why did you produce? Wow? Your
long weeks? Fine child? Can we could that segment a
little bit? Sure? Fine? No, I mean the news? No,
I know, okay, not you. I was continuing the improv,
but I went too real with my character and then
I always blur the line like that.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
I meant like, okay, you should never you we should
never you always us always the news, always the news.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Character, it's always there. If we took one improv class,
imagine how annoying. We would be imagine how we would
heighten an.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Expand yes and lose so many listeners.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Okay, let's play zip dabs off and then we'll start.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
You know, like one maybe one third of the fucking
listeners understood that.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yes, And I don't know. I think the improv and
comedy are taking over the world. But I think it's
required now that if you're twenty four, you've graduated from college,
you don't have a job. You have to take a
class that.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
You learn well in group settings, you kind of feel
lost and you're like, I.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Mean, I need a circle of dudes to stand in
you and one woman, one token woman. Yeah, objectify.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
It was really funny. It was really funny. But she
doesn't she's not super hot.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
It doesn't You might have to wait to see her
for a while. Yeah, so she's like a bro. So
I just keep doing improv scenes where I have to
touch her butt. What is happened? What character are you now?
Is it's the same news anchor that guy's fucked up? Wow? Yeah, okay,
and we are back. Seems like we might need to

(17:34):
keep a like a running taally of how many times
I insist that we discuss Italian people because it happens
a lot to this day. We love those Italian people.
It's fun to talk about.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
I want to say one thing when I was reading
through the transcript and thinking about this episode, and I
mentioned this psychiatrist that I had seen blowing off something
very important to me that I said, and I remember
that psychiatrist. You should find a psychia I trust who
takes your shit seriously. This woman, I went to her
a couple times, and I stopped going to her, and

(18:05):
I never got the help I needed from her. And
I think that that was such a like a moment
when I'm back in twenty seventeen that I didn't think
about at the time of like or maybe I knew
but didn't process that she totally blew me off when
I was telling her important things for myself, like that
mattered when it came to medication, absolutely, And the psychiatrist

(18:25):
I went to after her in the same practice, I
told her, you know, she said this and this and
this to me, like she had said to me, why
are you upset? You're so put together? Because I had
like a dress on and I was like, oh, okay,
that's not good.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
That's a weird thing for a friend to say, yeah,
much less a psychiatrist. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
So I just want to be clear that it's funny
back then, but you got to find a.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Psychiatrist who takes her issues seriously absolutely, and that you
get to whatever that preference is. Even if what she
said was like, why are you upset? I like your
dress or you know what I mean, And if it
seemed whatever, if it's hitting a weird chord with you,
you're right because if you actually put it in the
world of oh, well, I'm not qualified the way they're qualified,

(19:11):
you'll always lose that and in that specific conversation you
can't hold those normal standards. You have to go with
how does it feel? Am I comfortable? Do I like
talking to this person?

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Right?

Speaker 2 (19:23):
I mean it's also funny like having to revisit these
episodes where we didn't know what we were saying was
going to be such a problem, Like now we look
at it or read it or see it, and they
were just like, oh no, we're opening the door for
people to act mad at us or say they're mad
at us. But like saying the line about the pizza bagel,
saying that out loud, it's like It shouldn't be a

(19:45):
problem because the context is there, and the context is
really important, unless, of course, people are kind of looking
for things to be upset about. Where it's like, we're
talking about Jewish Italian people. The pizza bagel part is
just part of that conversation. It's not a bad saying.
Neither of those foods are bad.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
And someone refer to themselves as that, I think it's
very funny as a Jewish person that I'm not Italian.
So maybe it's I don't know, maybe it's not, but
I think it's funny.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
Literally, two of the appointment foods that I make when
I go to New York City pizza and bagel. They're
winning the food wars those two items, those cultures.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
You're not calling me a salad or like a sad
salad or something like, I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, they're two of the culturally most successful foods. Whatever.
I don't know. People should get to say whatever they
want about themselves. We can't explain it.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
It's never going to be explained away to someone who
wants to get upset about it.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Right, But it is kind of interesting. John Orr's relative
writing in to basically be like Hey, that book was
a bunch of bullshit against my dad. That was a
very new thing for us in that moment.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
That was really interesting that like, yeah, listener got information
from a parent or you know, someone they knew that
was involved in the case and got it from their side,
and that is so interesting and realizing that we could
get that. It was really exciting, I think to hear that,
and you know.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Instead of it being almost like reality TV fan talkback content,
it's more like, could you please try to be more
like journalists where they're like, what would be fair if
this person's family heard it? What would be fair if
this person's family like kind of being a little more
conscientious in that way, or just at least after the fact,
if people have something to say, they get to speak to.

(21:37):
I think that it felt good to be able to
give an update that somebody wanted to give. Yeah, No,
it was really cool. Yeah. Okay, now we're going to
get into Georgia's story about the mainline murders. Now, let's
get it into murder now. Let's please all right, So
eating Kaslah.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Thanks by the feat because you helped me a lot.
Karen Ardmore, Pennsylvania. Okay, this is a really fucked up
case that I'd really never heard of, Okay, and I
was shocked because it's fucking crazy.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
So it's okay.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
Early seventies. A woman named Susan Reiner. She's a pretty
kind of mousey looking thirty something year old English teacher
at Upper Marionne Area High School in the Mainline suburbs.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Oh, by the way, this is called the Mainline Murders. Okay,
damn it.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
That's it's open with that. It's about twenty minutes from Philadelphia.
Susan is married with two children, and she's having an affair, yes,
with the chair of the English.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Chair, like Clint Eastwood in that speisty case.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
Sorry, I remember how I was screaming at the chair
and my psychologist recently, she's having an affair with that chair.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Oh my god. She's doing a role play with a chair.
And then it got out of hand and she's like,
I'm going to fuck this chair. Yeah, got serious. She
left her husband for the chair. Stephen, we have to
pull all this out, all.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Right, So imagine at a high school. Just picture the
chair of the English department. Okay, tweed vests tweet vest
in the seventies, heavy beard.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
The very large beard and maybe some like aviator shaped
glasses that are indoor outdoor what do you call those?
Transition lenses?

Speaker 1 (23:24):
And Susan herself, there's like not a lot of photos
of her, but she's.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Like cut and mouse and you can tell she's kind of.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Probably sopt spoken, and she has these the like the
eyeglasses that are just take up half of her face.
Ye're like saucers on her face, right, which like looks
cute and it's like cool.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
And it's very seventies. Is like, yeah, maybe just when
contact lenses started, when the contact lenses were as big
as glasses frame, yes, glasses lenses anywhere.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
She said, and cram theming around. You were just shoving
huge thing and they're made of glass back when.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
Can you tell? Maybe it was when if it's sell
out at a party, people could help you find it.
That's how big they were.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
I was always proud of myself, how good I was
it faying my mom's contacts when.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
Such a weird era just is gone.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
Okay, so she's boning her fuck the chair of the
English Department. But I think here's the thing. I think
he's a Ted Bundy type.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
This English Department chair. Yeah his name Okay, so then
he might have been sorry, but yeah, he might have
been going toward her then yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
And she's having an affair. She has two children. His
name is Bill Bradford, the guy. Nope, his name is
Bill brad brad Field. Okay, name is Bill Bradfield. I'm
gonna call him Bill. Okay, Okay, So Susan is the woman.
Bill's the fucking creep English department head. And he's super
charismatic and charming. He's described by some of the other

(24:45):
teachers as a sumer intellectual who was quote full of himself.
Oh so he's like a Ted Bundy charming. He's like
ten years older than her. She's swept off her feet
by him, and she's just like probably like I've never
felt she's never had a female orgasm until she met him.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
I bet you. First second I thought that was in
the BuzzFeed article. I was just like, huh wait what Also,
if he's a pseudo intellectual, I bet you he carried
a pipe around with.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Him, pipe tweed, elbow pads some I think transition lines,
a heavy cologne. I bet he put like oil in
his beard, Yeah, cultivated his beard really trimmed it up
every morning, and.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
He probably had like really expensive whiskey, right, and he
had a book of erotic lithographs that he would invite
people over to look at.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Like, how are we so good at this just describing someone?

Speaker 2 (25:39):
I feel like we've lived past lives in the seventies
and we're really pissed off about what we were subjected to.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Dude, Okay, and I agree enough already with us having
to deal with these people.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
No, enough, all right.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
By March seventy nine, Susan leaves his left he husband,
and she tells her friends that Bill Studo Intellectual is
going to marry her.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
They're engaged. She's truly in love.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
She's madly in love with him, obsessed so much so, Karen,
that she gives him twenty five thousand dollars when he
tells her that he has a crazy great investment opportunity,
twelve percent gains, it's only going to be six months
and I.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
Need it in cash, damn, Susan.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Okay, she gives him twenty five thousand dollars to invest.
She has two children and back then, what was that?

Speaker 2 (26:29):
Oh my Almo's one hundred.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Thousand years and her kids Karen is eleven. Hi, Karen,
you're eleven. You're not eleven.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
It's not you.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Karen's eleven, Michael's ten. So she has like two young children.
She's giving this dude money and are you ready for this?
She makes him the beneficiary of her life insurance policies.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
This is not going to go well worth. How much
do you think of life insurance policy for this woman
would be two hundred and fifty thousand dollars set over
seven hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Oh no, she cuts her children out of the life
insurance policy and she changes her will to make him
fill the soul hair hair Nope, no hair to her estate.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
So okay, So she's she's getting a number run on
her heart. She's it sounds like she's pretty naive.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
You know. It's like a small suburb of Pennsylvania. She's
an English teacher.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
She's not. All the things that I wanted to be
real for her are probably not true. She's like she's
got her she as my dad likes to say, she
got her bell wrung by this. Oh my god, you're
right like the guy that it's that thing where and
it's a really good trick that scumbags use where it's
that thing of like they pick out people that they
know don't get certain kinds of attention, and then they

(27:48):
slatter you with that kind of attention, so that you're
kind of like, oh, he's picking me of all people
in the world. You never felt this way before.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, And I mean, fine, get your bell rung and ship,
but like at the cost of your children.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Just the will, No, just the will for your sweet
English chair side piece.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
And she wrote in it like like who's the beneficiary?
What's his relation? Like my intended husband? Like she fucking really.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Thought this guy's going to marry her.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, so she didn't know that. Bill of course was
living with another woman for years, also a teacher at
the same school. So he's just fucking getting his hairm
which they did call it that.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Did she And she didn't know that at all.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
I think he was like, we're roommates, there's no sexual relation,
you know, Like I think something like that happened.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
It's really hard.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
This took me a long time because of course, like
all of these crazy, really interesting murders, there's some fucking
pieces that you just keep finding.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, and there's not a lot of information on them. Okay.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
He also had at least two at least two other girlfriends,
one of which was an eighteen year old former student
of his.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
So yeah, yeah, So the twenty five.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
Thousand dollars he had said was really investing had gone
into a safe deposit box put in there by one
of his girlfriends, and the term was ending soon.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
So she was expecting her money soon. Okay, what's going
to happen? Bad things?

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yes, the night of June twenty second, nineteen seventy nine.
So we're nineteen seventy nine. Susan and the kids named
Karen and Michael. They're planning on meeting Bill. It's like
a night of a crazy hailstorm. A neighbor saw them
leaving their house just after nine pm. And the neighbor
happens to be the aunt of a murder EMAI. What

(29:39):
I fucking I went into my favorite murder email account,
put in the name of this thing, and out comes
like five emails, and one of them, the chick was like,
you've got to look this fuckond email at.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Her name is Gina A. She says that her.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Mom, so Gina wasn't born yet, but her mom was
the next door neighbor of this family, and she and
her sister used to babysit Karen and Michael, and that
hurt that. Gina's great grandmother swore that she heard screaming
the night they left, which is never confirmed, but the
aunt and the great grandma stought were the last people
to see them leaving the house.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Oh my god. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
So at that point Susan and her kids vanish.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
But then three days.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Later, thank you Gina A for writing in by the way, Yeah,
three days later. June twenty fifth, nineteen seventy nine. It's
almost exactly a year ago. No, yeah, well, well not
a year ago, I meant, okay, I know what you meant, Stephen.
Stephen's thirty years ago, is that right?

Speaker 2 (30:43):
No? Yes, thirty years ago? Yes, no, thirty No, twenty
seventeen eight, only thirty two years. That's exactly the kind
of math I can't do.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Like me too, and every other kind of math, geometry
and everything.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Oh man.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
I even told my psychiatrist about that yesterday, that I
just can't do math.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Did you have a math shut down in high school?
I had a math shot down my whole life. I
had to get sent to a hypnotist about because my
math was got so crazy that I'm going to help you.
Oh my mother had some idea about the female orgasm
and about hypnosis. Did I help? She was very she
was a very spiritual. She was she was like new Agy,

(31:31):
I'll touch new ag. But then but from a registered
nurse background, do you know what I mean? She's like,
I've seen results. These are the things I've seen results in.
Good for her.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
I fucking meant to talk to you about this documentary
I watched about a cult over the weekend, but I forgot.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Okay, next time, Okay, any who hypnotists? Okay? The kids
disappear three days later, a year ago, June twenty fifth,
nineteen seventy nine. Yep, a man.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
She calls the police about a quote sick woman in
the trunk of the car of a car in the
parking lot of the host in in Sworda Township, Pennsylvania.
It's about ninety miles from Susan's home and in the
trunk of her own car, which was an orange I
wrote this down for you, an orange Plymouth Horizon hatchback.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Did she ride? Which is like such an eighties in
one of those a Plymouth Horizon hatchback. I feel like
I can see what that is. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, So she's in the back, in the hatchback and
her body is found there.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
Oh, she was nude. Susan was nude.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
She had been severely beaten, she had two black eyes,
she was bound with a chain so tightly that the
chains left bruises on her back. And she was killed
with an injection of morphine. And it had been twenty
four to thirty six hours after the beating in which
she had been killed, and there was no sign of
her children. Oh yeah, So obviously Bill fucking teacher or

(33:07):
English guy was the main suspect once the investigators found
out about the affair, which he had been denying to everyone,
oh and saying wasn't true. And they found out but
the money, But he had an alibi for that weekend
that she went missing. He was at the beach in
Cape May, New Jersey with a bunch of other teachers,
and they all vouched for his whereabouts.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah. But even even if he wasn't nearby in that
exact same time, why would she leave you as the
beneficiary on her will if you weren't having an affair
or if there's no connection to you. But they were
at that point where like, yeah, he was, like he was.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
I don't think he ever denied it to the police
that they were oh yeah, just around town.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, got just like to the other teachers and stuff.
But he was out of town.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
And after a couple of years, there's still not enough
evidence to charge him with Susan's death and the missing children. Okay,
but there was enough evidence for prosecutors to charge Bill
with theft by deception because of the twenty five thousand
dollars she had given him and what turned out to
be a bogus investment. Oh so they were like, we
know he fucking had something to do with her disappear murder.

(34:15):
We can't charge her for that. Let's just bring him
in for this for now. So, seventy two hours before
his trial was supposed to begin, from his jail cell,
Bill files a claim to collect Susan's life insurance money
that was left to him.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
Sorry, what's this? There are so many twists and turns
in this fucking thing. He sends a stamped envelope out
in a bird's mouth out the jail cell window.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
I did read conflicting things that he was actually not
in jail yet, but he was or he wasn't, but like,
what kind of.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
Fucking idiot right before this would be like, but you
know what, you should add on to those charges. Yep.
If I just get that money real quick, I'll be
able to plea.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
So the jury finds him guilty, obviously, and in nineteen
eighty one he sentenced to up to two years in
jail for the twenty five thousand dollars. And then during
this time, police are also investigating someone else. So here's okay,
let's switch fucking let's go to another fucking weird thing happening.
Principal of the high school where Susan and Bill were teaching.

(35:21):
The principal is doctor J.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Smith. I'm gonna call him Principal Smith from now on
so we know who he is.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
He's a fifty year old dude, and he was known
as the quote creepy school principal. So those dude's are
fucking creep. Principal Smith, absolute creep. The teachers jokingly called
him the Prince of Darkness.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Oh wow, that's a joke. Yeah, that is funny, joke.
That's funny. What's your nickname? Oh me? Oh, it's a
devil joke the Prince of Darkness because I'm so lighthearted,
because I love to be your own children, and I
am of the devil. I have goat eyes and a case.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
It's a thing of like when you go to a
doctor's office and you fill out your thing and it's.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Like, what name do you like to be? Like, do
you have a nickname that you want to be called? Yeah?
Friends of Darkness? Marty, Marty were friends of Darkness. I
don't think not your dad. I go by Marty. Okay, but.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Okay, So this is my favorite fucking thing in the
entire world.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Ready for the best quote you've ever heard? Yes?

Speaker 1 (36:25):
So, crime writer Joseph Wamba wrote a book about the
whole case called Echoes in the Darkness, which is like.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
Same guy that wrote the John Orr book.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yes, yes, yeah, this guy he was a cop and
he was like goodbye, I'm going to go make a
ton of money instead.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah. So he in the book says that quote.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Some thought that Jay Smith, the principal, look like an
obscene phone call.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Have you ever heard of better description of someone that's
fucking genius? An amazing? It look like an obscene phone call.
So he's like, what he's like I picture, like shoulders
up around the ears, kind of like wringing his hands,
like greasy hair. Yeah, big thick glasses. Oh man, he

(37:13):
looked like an obscene phone call. That's amazing. I want
to go ahead, and that was that's beautiful. Congratulations Joseph
Wamba or John Joseph Joseph. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
So he's known to be eccentric, eccentric and a weird man,
often sitting in his office during school hours wearing only
his underwear. No, she could get away with in the
fucking seventies.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
It's not allowed, Mary, can you take these papers? Principal Smith.
You're not allowed to be here anymore. I'm just hot.
It's winter. It's hot in here. It's the dead of winter,
Principal Smith. And it's midnight.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Well, I'm the Prince of darkness, so I'm just constantly
sweating and it's midnight.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Why did you call me in? What did you call
me in from home? Yeah? Because I'm the Prince of darkness. Okay.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
There's rumors around town that Principal Smith had devil worship
sex parties and had burned bodies in the school incinerator,
and Barry chopped up body parts. So I guess they
were building a school pool at this time, and so
people are like, he's fucking bearing bodies underwhere they're building
the pool, so they'll be hidden forever.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
I just have to say that both of those rumors
that you just named sound like they came out straight
out of the third grade classroom.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, it's just like, but what if they're turning up bodies?
He has a cult sex parties and everyone's like, that's
not a thing. I mean people fucking swap and bone,
but like, yeah, there's no occult, Like, nobody wants to
have an a cult sex party.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
No, but he is sitting. What's worse and harder to
face is he literally is sitting in his underwear during
school hours. And that part's true. That so who cares
if the others isn't that don't need to make up
satanic parties when the principal's sitting in his underwear in
his office.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Like enough, Like your parents are going to be like,
but that's okay about any of it, my mo, mom?

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Okay, So but.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
Doctor Principal Smith's own kid, Stephanie Hunsberger and her husband Edward,
disappeared in early nineteen seventy eight, like a year before
Susan went missing. They were reportedly heroin addicts. They fucking
disappeared of nowhere, and they were assumed they had left
on the room because they were drug addicts. But till

(39:28):
this day they've never been seen. A wow, so people
assumed they're.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
In the pool too. Yeah, whoa.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
So a year before Susan's body is found, Principal Smith
is caught trying to break into cars in a mall
parking lot.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
The principal is trying to break into cars in the
mall parking lot.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
And on him are four loaded guns, as well as
silencer made from an oil cut oil filter, a tranquilizing drug,
and quote a hood with two slits.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
For the eye. No, yep, what are those called? Cavit
cav bella clava. That's not a bottle clava. Though, thank you,
I can never get that. Thank you for your input.
I can never get that fucking word. It's you know why,
it's weird, But I always think of Balenciaga, the designer.
But two isolates is more zodiacy. Yeah. The bottle club

(40:21):
like sticks to your faces like sche mouse and you
have an opening for the mounts yeah, right, you're right.
And also it's just more devil worship. Ye yeah, but
how do you breathe through that? I guess just slowly
and you stay calm with your tranquilizer in your pocket
and your four fucking guns.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
If you're a sociopath, you're not panicking, right, that's right,
all right? So when his house is searched, police, fine,
swing your publications, best reality porn and chains and locks.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
This is just a safety thing. He has a ton
of bikes. He loves bicycling, you know what. You're probably right.
Let's go back exonerate.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
How they didn't say how many bikes they found, So
let's hear the whole story.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Like, don't just Principal Smith's wife. He has a wife.
She's like mean here, I'm gonna do her voice.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
Well, he had a double costume, and he had a
collection of bildo's, Like that's what missus, Principal Smith said,
Marian Smith, Mareen Smith, Fareen, you need to face the facts, Maureen,
this isn't normal. Have you ever had a female orgasm?
What this episode? I've heard of them, I have heard
tell those.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
Are what's it called? Those are made up? Those are fictional.
Those are none of my business. Principal Smith, she called him.
Principal Smith told me that that's just it's a feminist movement.
Were they trying to get you to have some Principal
Smith told me, Wait, Maureen, do you call your husband
Principal Smith? Wait, it's what he asked on our wedding night.

(41:58):
He was in a devil's costume. If the devil tails
me to do something, she's suddenly from the South. Okay,
that accent has to get weirder. Yes, well, like Maaurreen
Smith out of her mind.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, okay. They also find a fake Brink security badge
which they later to which they tied to a fifty
thousand dollars armed robbery at Sears.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
A year earlier.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
So he was using his fake fucking costume and his
fucking security badge and guns and fucking holding up Sears
for fifty rand Like why does Seers have that much money?

Speaker 2 (42:31):
There? The popcorn's amazing, Okay, but also maybe he's like
maybe that's why he needed to cool off in his
office with no pants on. He was like committing major
heists like the one Rushing happened. Yeah one time. Yes,
I'm so hot, Meryly can you just fix this on
your own? I'm all right, I just ran from the bank,

(42:54):
all right.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
So he's arrested, and among his defense witnesses at his
trial in nineteen seventy nine, three months before Susan's body
is found, is our friend Bill. Oh mister uh elbow patches. Yeah,
he gives Principal Smith an alibi. And even back then, Susan,
who's still alive at the time three months ti left
live to live, she doubted Bill's alibi too. She thought

(43:16):
he was making it up.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
But Principal Smith either way is found guilty and given
five years. But okay, he's free on bail while he's
waiting sentencing.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
His date in court, which he was late to.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Was June twenty fifth, nineteen seventy nine, which, may I
fucking remind you, is the.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Date that Susan's body was found. And he was late
that morning to court because he was calling and saying,
a sick lady is in a car.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
Well, oh, I don't know, but he say go ahead.
Susan was found early that morning, at like five am, in.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
The trunk of the car.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
Oh oh, but her kids disappeared right, and the court's
eight he was late to was about fifteen minutes from
the hotel where her park were the parking lot were
her body was found, and the police at that moment
during his arraignment are removing Susan's body from the car.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
Okay, so patches is in. Patches is on like in
Connecticut or something? Right, he said he was. He had
an l being like far away. Yeah, so he got
this guy to do it. All right, let's keep going.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Okay, we'll have well, yes, this will be discussed, This
will be discussed.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
Oh well, oh, we're going to talk about this. Oh,
this is gonna happen. I don't know why I have
to keep on guessing. No, I love it. This is
it's the best. It's fun. It makes me like happy.
So guess what else is in the back of the hatchback.
I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
Under Susan's body there's a a sex toy and be
also a plastic calm with the name of Principal Smith's
Army Reserve.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
No, which I'm guessing you're not.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
Fucking gross old men like that like Grandpa's put their
fucking gross, greasy combs in the front of their fucking
shush shirt pocket like button down with short sleeved shirt.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Pockets, so they took off when they were in their offices.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yeah, like you know, he bent down into the trunk
and it probably fell out of that top shirt pocket and.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Then he put her you know what I mean, totally
the little but it was a comb that he had
his own name, Principal Smith put on. No it. I
think it was the Army Reserve unit that he was in.
Oh oh, just that. Yeah, it didn't say Principal Smith's
Army Reserve. I took you totally.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Literally, Like they probably got it at like a fucking
legioneer's hall party, got it, you know, they passed them.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Out, got it. It was just the one he belonged to.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, like his body wasn't give him everyone who what
if his first name was principal, that would be great, mister,
mister principal, it's Principal Paul Smith.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Mister Principal Paul's. Then later a cute little green.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Pin that was a souvenir from a class trip to
the Philadelphia Museum of Art that Karen. Eleven year old
Karen wore the day she disappeared. Found under the front
passenger seat of Principal Smith's car Oh no, Yeah, So,
almost four years after Susan Reinert's death, Bill Bradford Patches

(46:13):
is arrested in charge with the three murders, even though
the kids have never been found, charged with three murders,
and in April sixth, nineteen eighty three, thanks to the
help of another English teacher who was a good friend
of Bill, who was like a really fucking sweet, wonderful
guy and got conned by Bill as well. He felt
betrayed and freaked out and told the FBI, and he

(46:33):
was a key witness in the trial. What do you
tell uh, it's mister vladis he told them that. For
months before Susan's death, Bill was freaking out because he
thought he was telling everyone he thought Principal Smith was
going to kill her, but it was really odd and weird,
and he got a gun to defend her, but never
told her about his feelings.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Super weird and convoluted and makes you go, is he
setting up an alibi? Or is he like he's pre
throwing people off?

Speaker 1 (47:05):
All right, but why even bring it up in the
first place, right, because he thinks he's smarter than everyone. Yes,
so he's getting all these other people involved in it and.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Sanetic as sociopas who he knows he can like charm
and manipulate people to kind of believe.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
What right, And then so when she dies he can
They're all going to be like, well, yeah, Bill knew
about this.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
Bill knew Principal Smith was going to kill her. This
is what he feared all So this is what.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Happened, and Bill is right instead of being like Bill
is fucking creeping us all out, he has a gun,
all right, So mister Vilattice was cool. In nineteen eighty six,
while in prison for his other conviction of the armed robbery,
Principal Smith is convicted of conspiring with Bill to kill

(47:50):
the Reinhart family.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
So he's convicted as well. WHOA.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Both men tried to pin the murders on the other,
claiming they.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Were set up by the other one.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
He's Principal Smith is convicted of three counts of murder
and given the death penalty.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
Cut to six years later. This isn't ending it, okay,
mocking twisting. I never wanted it anyway. In nineteen ninety two,
good old ninety two, an antique dealer like this is
so what the fuck?

Speaker 2 (48:17):
I can't even believe this.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
An antique dealer who you know is just like he's
like American pickers. Does you know, like quote antique dealer
sounds really nice. And I'll give you eight hundred for
that propeller.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
Yeah, it's worth ten thousand. Well, who's going to die
of that? Yeah, you're a dumb farmer. You don't know that.
I hate the guy I'm working with. Have you watched
that show? It's the fucking they hate each fight. No,
but you can like feel it. They hate each other. Okay.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
A quote antique dealer is hired to clean out that
the addict belonging to the state detective, like the main
state detective that was involved in this case in the
Rhino murders.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
The attic the addict, did I say, addict? God, why
do I always do that? Why do I always do that? Sorry? No,
I'm glad you corrected. I just want to make sure
that's what because they're running. It's running. He didn't hire
him to clean out his addict. Some aaronad we already
have addicts in this story. That's right, but they're just
they've disappeared right insanely enough. But they're not in the attict.

(49:15):
But this is the fact that you're even introducing an
antique dealer that is about to clean out an addict.
Dude is my favorite. Please go too.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yes, in the attic, there's a box containing a duplicate
of the comb found under Susan investigative notes contradicting prosecution
testimony and if he sive quote lifters, which I think
is like tape that they containing grains of sand and
quartz from the bottom of Susan's feet that they never

(49:47):
turned over to the defense. Why so, I don't understand
the duplicate colmb But maybe that's just I don't understand
that part.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
They went and got another one, Maybe to prove that
it wasn't to find it, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Yeah, but whatever reason they had it and then contradictory No,
it's fine, but the lifters. Okay, Bill said he was
at the beach that fucking weekend. Yes, and they found
sand in courts. They could have tested the fucking sand
at that Jersey Shore beach. Why does she have that
on her feet?

Speaker 2 (50:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (50:20):
My feeling is did she leave that night to confront him?
He was there with his living girlfriend. He fucking freaks
out and kills them. Yeah, I mean she he doesn't expect.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
It, like basically his little separate lives overlap.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
And she's like, you gotta tell them now, or I'm
going to fucking leave you, or I'm gonna tell them.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Myself, or just I'm going to change that will and
all the other people yeah because I made a mistake. Yeah,
and you're scum. Yeah. And he freaks out.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
But the other people at the beach, I have no
doubt they would have if they had known, they would
have said something because it was that guy who testify
against him.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
His living girlfriend didn't seem like.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
The kind of she ended up uh testifying against him
as well, Like they weren't scumbags who ran on it
all right, So Principal Smith's defense attorney says that this
could have been This could have placed the murder and
in the New Jersey's shore right, which would have helped
Principal Smith get off. So, after serving six years on
death row, Principal Smith is released oh ninety two, even

(51:21):
though we don't know he didn't have anything to do
with it. She was chained up and he was into chains.
His fucking comb was in the car, or what if
Biell put it in there? On purpose, right, he'd placed
it in there. Yeah, maybe they had more of them, right,
maybe there's a can of those combs because he was
saying that Principal Smith's gonna kill her. Hey, look what happens,
And maybe the fucking pin was put in Principal Smith's car. Yeah, suck, dude,

(51:47):
I'm contradicting my whole Well.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
No, but I mean is if he was telling people
that many months beforehand, he was probably collecting things to
set him up. He could have been collecting things to
set him up before and that's very realistic. Right.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
So he's released in ninety two because the evidence prosecutors
may have exonerated him, and through the appeals court he
the appeals court agreed that there was unethical conduct, but
they also said that quote nothing untrustworthy about Smith's There
was nothing untrustworthy about Smith's conviction for murder.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
So there was like they were like.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
We fucking think he did it, but he got une
for a trial, and so we have to let him go.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Yeah. So they so for some whatever reasons.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Whatever evidence they thought he was, they were working together
all right, along with the box found the nine to
one to one tape of the call about Susan's body
was mistakenly destroyed.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Her body was here's the.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Fucking second time this has happened in very short time,
accidentally cremated. Oh wait yeah, and the autopsy audio tape.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Was lost until after the trial. Well that's three things.
That's too many things. Ye one thing. Maybe they're like, oh,
that's a bad creamate a woman. Well, you don't accidentally
do it, You don't do I don't think so. No,
I mean I don't think so. Like there's basic paperwork.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
You don't just toss a fucking body in the crematorium.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
No, but you toss a twenty grand toward a person
that's running that ooh crematorium and then say look the
other way while I do what I need to get done.
I mean there's a lot of money or something, yeah,
like wells, but also just the combination of because also
then the autopsy where the corners talking and going, now

(53:34):
there's a mild abrasions on this and that.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Like so there's no way to read. It's like they
can't dig her up and give her an autopsy again,
they can't check anything like bite marks or anything that
would actually indicate.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Or like DNA.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
The reinert case becomes the biggest investigation in the history
of Pennsylvania State Police. In nineteen eighty seven, a mini
series based on on the Echoes in the Darkness book
comes out, which I could only find ten minutes of online.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Karen, you would fucking lose your mind if you saw this.
Who was in it? All right? I wrote every single person.
Maybe you would ask that, Oh my god, it's episode
seventy five. We've finally gotten sync. Yes, it only took
us seventy four, all right.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
Susan is played by Stockard Channing. Oh, yeah, you love that.
Bill Old Patcha's Bill is paid played by Peter Coyote.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Yes, Peter Coyote. I don't know him. He's yes, you do.
He's the narrator for the oscars. Oh, coming up next.
He's like uh, and he's like a very he's I
think he's from theater mostly, but you've seen things. He's
super low key. He looks like Rayvermano. Is that okay?
He's like Ray Vermono's artie brother.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Because I watched the ten minutes which were so good,
and like, there are so many other convoluted points to
this whole story that like I couldn't even get to
that weren't really part of it. But I think they're
in the ministers, so bomb I can't find it. You know,
someone listening has it on cassette and their mom recorded
it when it came out with the commercials.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
We need you to fucking upload it. Do you imagine
what the commercials? Oh? Sorry, what year he came out?

Speaker 1 (55:12):
In eighty seven? The commercials would make me barf. I
would be so happy. It would be well, it would
be new Coke, Yeah, it would.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
Be oh la looks hair gel.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Yes, it would be whatever market that the mom recorded
it in. The fucking panic news coming up next after
this mini series.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
Yes, your children's backs are fucked. That's right, give up
your children? Yes, okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
Oh and then Principal Smith has paid, played by Robert Loggia.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
Robert Loggia Logia, Yes, because he you know him. I
won't be able to think of anything offhand. He is
the guy. He's short, he has had white hair for
most of his career, and he got the dogs like this.
He's got a big, kind of a big nose. He
has an Italian field. Because he's not in the ten minutes,
He's not in that one at all. He's the cop. No,

(56:03):
he's the fucking principle. He's principal. Yeah, that's so good.
Oh my god, we have to get our hands on this.
You know where we can go where we have the
fucking Museum of Television. Ooh, where's that?

Speaker 1 (56:16):
It's it's in Beverly Hills. You go there, you put
you fill out a card, you say, this is what.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
I want to watch. They take it in. They have
a library of like almost everything that's ever Yeah. Yeah,
it's right in Beverly Hills.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
What about the like one of the last cool movie
rental places.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
It's next to the New Art and Santa Monica on
Santa Monica Boulevards Cinemania or something. Josh Fatom worked there
for a long time because he loved it. Yes, and
I'm talking about yes Cinophile Cinemia. No, No, Cinophile is
the Cynia Family. I don't remember. Yeah, we'll go there
Field Trip. Yeah, class they won't have it though, you
have driving TV is okay? I think it's too like obscure.

(56:58):
Oh we're gonna find this dude. Yeah all right. Bill
dies in prison in nineteen ninety eight. Principal Smith. No
Bill fucking Patches. Bill Patches dies in ninety eight.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Okay, Principal Smith dies a free man. Both maintain their
innocence the entire their entire lives. They didn't even give
us the fucking like deathbed confession. All right, but you're
ready for the I saved the creepiest for the last
part because it's the creepiest thing I've ever heard in
my fucking life. Okay, and there's a photograph of it online.

(57:30):
Oh oh, all right, So, uh, Bill Patches, the fucking
creepy lover, dies his cells being cleaned out, and a
photograph is found hidden in his belongings.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
The photograph depicts a.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Stone marker looks like a like a small Gothic kind
of angel stone, kind of marker resembles a hooded figure,
worn away kind of The stone is surrounded by fallen
leaves with woods in the background, so it's the middle
of some random woods. And that photo alone, it was, uh,
it was they found. The cops were like it was

(58:07):
processed before, in like eighty six, before he went to prison.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
And some people think it's.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
A photograph of the location of Little Carrol and Michael's graves,
but investigators sent it out and they've been unable to
locate the marker.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
As of yet, so it's like hidden in a forest somewhere.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
And he had a fucking photograph of it the entire
time he was in prison.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
So he fucking did it. He did it, and he
knows where the fucking bodies are. And that's his Uh,
what's the thing. We forgot this once before and people
were yelling at us, that's his souvenir, his you know,
his serial killer. So yeah, I think it's a souvenir
whatever or the thing that they keep.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Then I was thinking, like how creepy would it have
been if like they'd killed them together and and Principal
Smith had buried the body and he gave it to
Bill and like a warning, like if you fucking tell
anyon happened, Like everyone will know about the dead kids.
Here's a photograph of where they are buried because of you.
Or maybe Bill didn't want them to die, to die.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
Maybe, but don't you think like the way those kinds
of killers do it. They keep the keepsakes meant about yeah, memento,
it's about they love that thing. They it's a positive thing. Yeah,
if it was a threat, it wouldn't be as good
like sneak he had to sneak it into prison.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
It's probably in one of his books, in his bookshelf
or something like that.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Do you think that two people did it. I think
that only one of these creepy men did it. I
think it sounds like they knew they were in on
something together. Yeah, they so say it was some weird
sex ring, or they were in a lot of money
to be split out between them. Who had the money.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
Well, Bill was going to get all seven hundred over
seven hundred thousand dollars in life insurance money.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
Okay, right, so all right, So say they were in
a sex ring something where they both had information on
each other. Then it's like Patches is like, I'll get
I'll give you fifty grand if you I have to
set this thing. And this is like it's almost like
a stranger's on a train. You. If you take care
of these bodies, I can be out of town. There
will be no connection. One of those kind of but

(01:00:17):
it's a bad plan because it's like, yeah, we'll work
at the same school.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
I think that Bill, I mean sorry, I think that
Principal Smith's almost seems too obvious because he's a fucking
his children, his children disappear too, his heroinautic daughter, and
he's robbing banks and shit. It's almost like, why would
you also do these other things? Or is it because
you think you can get away with that shit, which
you almost did.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
Right, I mean the robbing the bank thing is insanity
because usually if you're a bank robber, you're not gonna
then have a double life as a high school principle.
It's like, that's so fascinating. And the fact that he
owns all kinds of weird sex stuff. Yeah, I mean
that is fucking insane. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
So that's the Mainline murders aka the Ryan Aart murders.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
And it was sorry that was Pennsylvania. Yeah, wow, I know,
is that fun? How have we never heard of it?
I've never heard. I feel like when you said the
thing about the Little Girl's Museum pin being under the thing,
that kind of made me get a little something. Dang,

(01:01:25):
but I would have remembered all that other crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
St Yeah, I've never heard of so many weird fucking
things and one one simple murder about insurance money, right,
never heard so many crazy things going on? Well?

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Also, if so she leaves her house with her kids
and gets into the car.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Sounds like it was in a hurry in the hailstorm.
But I only saw that in like one thing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Okay, because also it was late at night. And also
if there's a hailstorm, that means he went to the
beach during hale, like during the winter he went to
New Jersey, which I think. I think the beach I
like looked it up.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
I'm in a map was like four hours away. But
I mean, yeah, I know, why did he pick that? Yeah,
if it's wintertime, why don't you go skiing?

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Totally? What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
Like did he plan the trip? I want to know,
Like did they go there often? Did they ever do
that before?

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Yeah? Like clearly there's this thing of like.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Your spouse or your loved one gets killed and you
happen to be out of town on a vacation. It's
like you can't have a convenient alibi and expect that
that to be your only Yeah, the only thing they
look in solid Yeah, well, and also because you're the
alibi is about.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Killing your secret lover while you're on vacation with your
other secret lover, and then there's other secret lovers like
all that there's so much going on without talking about
Principal Smith in his underwear. If we don't even get.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
Into that list so much, how about we'll have a
whole episode that the story we do together is Principal
Smith is an underwear and it's underwear.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
But I'm telling you that final moment of the picture
find them finding the picture. Okay, just put in mainline
murders and you'll see it. How can some how can
somebody on Reddit haven't found out where that is yet?
No shit? I mean you would just think that people
in Pennsylvania would just be combing the fucking on.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
The way from Pennsylvania to New Jersey where the beach place.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Yeah, like somewhere along that route. Fuck.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
So if someone go find it and like, then we'll
fucking you guys. If murderinos solve this, I don't even
mean us, but if like some murderinos solve this and
find the bodies, it'll be go out there, go forth
and dig. And I mean this was in nineteen eighty
six though, so it's probably not there anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
But if it's a stone marker and also so creepy
a c figure, oh ye. Also if you find the
stone mark if you find any Stocker Channing made for
TV movie about murder, whether it's this one or another,
I'm interested in watching it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Email my favorite murder at gmail dot com putting that
putt in the title Stocker Channing in the subject line
Stocker Channing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Or found the dead children.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Yes, it's just so sad that she put them, that
she made these decisions out of her naivete And yeah,
she's a victim obviously, but like these kids had no
choice any of it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
If she was getting the full sociopath psychopath hypnosis deal
where it's like, you know, like Ricky Ticky Tavy when
that snake goes up and you can't stop staring at
the eyes. It's that thing where she walked away from
a whole life to be with this man who was

(01:04:53):
a complete criminal and creepo and was turning it over entirely.
I mean, there's That's what I would like to know
about and see up close because because there's a story
there and she probably was a smart woman. Yeah, I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
I mean one thing that's like one little detail and
say that really made me sad was that when he.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
When he went to court.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
For the twenty five thousand dollars from stealing it from her.
Susan's ex husband like went to fight against him.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
So even after they divorced, he was like, fuck this guy.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Yes, you know she cheated on me, but this guy
is a fucking creep and a piece of shit.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
Yeah, like not even trying to get the money himself.
He's just like she's a con man that like hurt
the woman I loved she was he was still fighting
for her, and it just made me so sad that
it's the whole thing is incredibly sad. Also, just remember
in the seventies, like women, it's not the parenting situation
was so different in that way where it was like

(01:05:53):
having people had affairs or you know, made these kind
of it was the me generation too, where it was
like I'm gonna you know, I started out a housewife
in the sixties and that was all fine, I have
a chance to Yeah, why can't I have a life
and that, And I'm sure he played on that and
it was I'm sure she was trying to balance all
of that. I don't I hope I don't sound like
I'm victim laming. It's just no, nun.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
I just don't want to forget these too sweet and
if you see if you, if you google it, you'll
see their photos and they're just like these sweet baby
angels who just like who knows where they went. They
fucking disappeared and they never even got it, you know,
funeral from the grandparents and their dad.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
It's just it's so sad. It's horrible. Yeah. So yeah,
mainline murders. Wow yeah, wow, well done. Thank you. That
was crazy, Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
I know, right, Okay, we're back Georgia. Are there any
updates for this case, yes, there are updates. And actually
from our conversation we were just having about people writing
in their side of the story. When I was researching this,
I look for our emails and there are so much
Murderinos who were connected to this story and that they
lived there at the time, or their parents went to

(01:07:06):
high school with this and that, and so it was
really interesting. We got an email from a Murderino named
Elise A. Miller who was there at the time and
wrote a book called Tracing the Bones. It's a novel
and she based it off of this case. So I
think that was really interesting. And as for the case,
the murder of Susan Reinert and the disappearance of her children.
Karen and Michael remain unsolved. Sadly, State police at Harrisburg

(01:07:30):
continue to offer a five thousand dollars reward for information
to find the bodies of Karen and Michael. And Netflix
is in early development with Andrew Sadroski, who wrote man
Hunt about the Unibomber, and Aggregate Films, which is Jason
Bateman's production company, for a limited series inspired by the
Mainline murders. And when I was re reading about this,

(01:07:51):
it's such a fucking wild case, I mean, yeah, and heartbreaking.
And then I also mentioned being unable to find the
Stockard Channing made for TI TV movie called Echoes in
the Darkness about this case, and it's now available on.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
Two B so check that out. Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
Okay, so now let's get into Karen's story about Spider Savage.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Mine's a little more well, Mine's mine's one that you've seen.
Now that I'm working again, I'm doing those ones where
I'm like, what do I know? Really well, because I've
seen it on every true crime show. Everyone loves those.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
It's all fun of like recognize when to be like, yes,
tell me about it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
So this is one everyone knows which is the murder
of Spider Savage. I'm sorry, what the murder of Spider Savage?
He's a famous downhill skier. Dude, I don't know this.
You are you serious? So this is this is uh taken.
There's a power, Privilege, Privilege and Justice hosted by Dominic Dunn.

(01:08:58):
One of the greatest true crime scene ever because Dominic Dunn,
the author, sits there staring into camera doing interstitial narration
and he looks like the most livid individual of all times.
It's almost like he's blaming you, telling you what you
did wrong. Yes, he's he's angry at the justicism, he's

(01:09:20):
angry at injustice in general, and he's just disgusted. But
at the same time, he loves like Beverly Hills, like
he's a bit of a status guy, or he's a
bit of a because he was a famous author, right,
so he has a little bit of like I was
at that party and I saw like, yeah, he is
a first hand thing and a lot of these stories,
but it's not frivolous. He's very serious. And he's the

(01:09:45):
one whose daughter was murdered by her ex boyfriend, right,
which I did we do that? Yeaminique done? Yes, we
did her murder. Yes, yeah, so basically he has he
was like he was played by I think, oh it
was so good Jeremy Nathan Lane played him in the
O J. Ryan Murphy OJO so brilliantly because he was

(01:10:06):
there for the whole ojay. Yeah, he's and I think
he's mostly a vanity fairer off right. Yeah, I'm not sure,
but he's very famous, like true crime writer and writer
that asked motherfucker. So if you I think there's I
mean I was able to watch Power Privilege in Justice
on YouTube, although everyone had the same incredibly deep voice,

(01:10:29):
so I think that's the way they got away with
Like the last one I tried to watch where the
screen was diagonal and it was you know, it was
slightly altered so that you could watch it. This one,
it was like they basically slightly altered everyone's voice, so
it sounded like everyone was in the witness Protection program,
but they weren't being they weren't in the dark.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
Yeah, so anyway, got it if you can so far,
I don't remember this one, so let's fucking have that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
And I'm excited that. Okay, all right, So roughly around
the same time, A year ago. Sunday, March twenty first,
nineteen seventy six, Vladimir Peter Spider Savage, a thirty one
year old champion alpine ski racer, returned home from a
training session to Starwood, a gated community in the ritzy

(01:11:17):
resort town of Aspen, Colorado. Oh, I also got some
of this information from a website called called shit Shit.
That's a great I didn't write him down. It was
dot shit shit dot com, dot don't go, please don't.
We can't be responsible. Noah's called snow blitzed or snow

(01:11:38):
brained or so I'll figure it out and tell you guys.
But it was it's basically like a skiers website. Okay, okay, okay.
So he comes back to his home in a gated
community called Starwood in Aspen. So it's like Aspen, Colorado,
as most people know, is an incredibly rich white ski resort,

(01:12:01):
kind of like one percenter town, and this guy was
kind of the star of that town. So he within
this rich, ritzy place, lived in a gated community because
he's like, I'm scared of all you not rich people.
I need a gate. I'm scared of you people that
only make six hundred thousand dollars a year. So yeah,
that's like the people who live they work in Beverly Hills,

(01:12:24):
but they live in bel Air, right, Oh, must be nice. Okay,
So he was he was stopping home at his home
in Starwood to change because he had been skiing and
he'd gone to a party. He was going to go
home and take a shower because he was later on
he planned to meet his skiing coach for dinner. The

(01:12:47):
chief police, who is in this episode of Power, Privilege,
and Justice, is talking about how he was in his
police cruiser. He hears a call come out over the
radio that there's been a shooting at Starwood, so he knows,
you know, he immediately races over because he's like, these.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
People pay more money to the police department. No George
out there quick, God damn it. Well, but it is
kind of that way. This is there, that's kind of tower.
If something happens, nothing happens.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
Bad there probably exactly. So if anything has someone shoots
a gun straight up into the air, they're like, we
got we gotta process this immediately. And it is a
little bit of like shadows of John Benet in that
way where the police don't have. It's like, of course,
they obviously do technically have this jurisdiction, but rich people
kind of do what they want. They lawyer up, they

(01:13:37):
fly places on their private jets and that, like the
police are just have to kind of do their best
public servants. Yeah, these people who make eight hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
Yeah, there really a check is paid with the taxes
that those people pay. Yeah, okay, So when they arrive there,
they go to they find that they're arriving at the
home of Spider Savage, who lives there with his living
girlfriend of four years, singer actress Claudine Lane. I have

(01:14:07):
never heard of these people, are you, sirih never heard
of this one.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
I've definitely seen this forensic Files several times, and I've
seen this power, privilege and justice at least once. I
miss this one. It's a bit of a class I'm excited.
So they find Cloutding slumped in the hallway crying, oh no,
and then they walk back to the bathroom off the
master bedroom and they find Spider who's been shot in
the abdomen and bleeding out on the bathroom floor. Shot

(01:14:34):
once already lost a ton of blood and Finally the
ambulance arrives. Clutting begs the police to let her ride
along in the ambulance with him, and they let her,
which I think these days, you know, this is the
late seventies, these days would be like no, no, no,
you're the only person on this less it's a kid,
probably right, But even then, if you're the only person

(01:14:57):
on the scene, it's like, oh, you got to answer
some questions. Don't just get to do whatever you want. Yeah.
So they find the gun, which is an antique luger,
in the bathroom, but before they get a chance to
thoroughly examine the house, they get a call from the
hospital reporting that Spider Savage has died on the way

(01:15:20):
to the hospital, so they the district attorney goes to
the hospital, finds Clouding and he starts to question her
about what happened at the house that night.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
Can I just say, it's a really interesting thing, and
it's almost smart when people who kill someone they don't
die till they're in the hospital, because then they have
to trample the scene, They have to put their hands
all over this person's dying body to try to resuscitate them.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
They get them.

Speaker 1 (01:15:47):
Out of there, immediately, so they don't see how they fall,
They don't see details that they would see if the
person was already dead when they went into that say, right,
you know what I mean, they're still alive. Yeah, it's
like almost, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
It's almost horribly better. It's it's yeah, as opposed to
freeze this tape it. Everybody stay away, we have time
to don't to not touch anything. Okay, right, go exactly Okay.
So the district attorney finds Clutting and he questions her,
and she is anxious to explain that Spider was going

(01:16:23):
out of town and so he was actually showing her
how to use the gun so that she would be
safe while he was gone. Oh sure, while he was
showing her how to use the gun, it went off
immed It could happen, It could happen. It was an
it was an old antique gun. I have to say that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:40):
Yeah, I want to know how to get how a
gun works if I was going to be alone.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
Sure. Well, the police are immediately suspicious because these people
live in a gated community in Aston, Colorado. So I
bet they have dogs. Yes, there's dogs, sens of dogs,
there's gates. It's the whole community. Everyone in the whole
city makes a shit ton of money or is like

(01:17:04):
a Ski Bombs who makes slightly less amount of money,
So they're like, not sure. Then the autopsy comes back
and shows that Spider Savage was bending over and had
his back turned to the doorway when he was shocked.
How do they know that, they're so smart? It was
a downward The bullet went in in downward fashion because

(01:17:28):
it was one shot in the abdomen, but it got
his It's a part of his heart. I believe they
already written down. But it basically like went down through
his heart. So he's bending over forward, his butt toward her, right,
I believe. Okay, okay, So the police have no choice

(01:17:49):
but to say that's premeditated and something incredibly suspicious is
going on. So Clogging is arrested. She's charged with homicide
and criminal negligence, and she immediately hires prominent Aspen attorney
Ron Austin, who gets her released on bond, which the
cops said they knew she was going to get released.
That's just part of it, but they were like, because

(01:18:11):
he was saying, you can't arrest her. This is her boyfriend.
She's really upset and they're like nowhere arresting her even
if you're going to take her out of here. So
it turns out she was married to the singer Andy Williams,
who you may know. He was famous in the sixties.
He's the one that sang Moon River. He was like
a crooner in the fifties and sixties, and he was

(01:18:34):
up there with like Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and
all those guys.

Speaker 1 (01:18:37):
He was just a little more He wasn't a rat
pack guy. He was a little more whitebread. He was
like a little more all American. And he had a.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
TV show that for the Andy Williams Christmas Special. For
years was the number one rated television show of all
time until one of the Super Bowls knocked it out
of its place.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
Can we watch those in secessions after we watch the
lifetime of Stocker Channing movies, then.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
We go into the Andy Williams specials. We can because
his wife, Claudine Langey is on them with him. Wait, okay,
holy shit, yes, that's her first husband. So we're watching
the shit out of us. So when she's released from
the from the police department on bond, they call up

(01:19:30):
the Aspen airport and have them reopen because it's late
at night, so that Andy Williams can fly in to
Aspen to go and meet her and get her or like,
you know, go meet up with me. Yeah. So that's
what I'm talking about, where it's like now we're in
rich people territory, where like people are kind of doing
what they want.

Speaker 1 (01:19:49):
Fucking airport open, give that a try right now. Yeah, anyone,
see what you can do.

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
Call over the Bourbank Airport right now and see if
you can find your keys.

Speaker 1 (01:19:58):
Okay, steep the fucking phone answer you can stop one,
do as much as you can and then let us.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
Know so you can sell us. Yeah. So the police
go back to the house and they get a warrant
and they start to search the house. And they immediately
and they had some of the cops had seen it
when they were originally on the scene. Her diary is
sitting on top of the dresser and it's a big,

(01:20:26):
like ledger sized diary, and so one of the cops,
so the cops are taking pictures of the whole scene
and processing the scene. One of the cops takes the
diary off the top of the of the dresser and
is looking through it of like, is this what I
think it is? Sees that it is, realizes it's her
writing her most private thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
Why the fuck?

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Why does anyone have a diary? For real? Sap it,
You stupid idiot, Go to a therapist. If you're going
to have a diary, why would it ever ever ever
be out anywhere now and have it be a ledger?
You think you're that fucking important, right, like claudying, Well,
this is clauding more. I don't think she did it
because she sounds really naive. Okay, So while they're processing

(01:21:07):
and taking photographs of the crime scene and of the bedroom,
the photographer takes a picture of the dresser with no
diary on top of it because the cop had picked
it up and was looking through it. Then the cop
put it back, and then more pictures were taken with
the dietary. Okay, yeah, okay, why did I put my

(01:21:31):
paper down? Because you're telling me the best story. I
had to use my hands to show you what a
book looks like. That was a ledger. I could tell
by the way your hands were right. Oh, it was nice.
It was big. Oh see that string that goes down
the middle, So that's that'll come back later. And also
there was a couple other things. Okay, so about Claudying,

(01:21:52):
so we'll learn we'll learn about her a little bit.
Claudine Lange was born in Paris. She moved to Las
Vegas when she was eighteen. She loan be a star.
Oh jesus, she's a singer. She's gorgeous. So she looks
like she has a bit of an Amanda Pete look
to her, like strong feature, yes, but like Claire Nostril,
very sexy, but also very soft spoken and had kind

(01:22:17):
of like a soft spoken singing voice. And the woman
who there was somebody that worked with her at the
Falle Bouger at the Tropicana in Vegas, which was like
the big burlesque show in Las Vegas at the time.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
And this is before Las Vegas was like cheap and gross.
It was like this classiest fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
This was the late fifties or sixty jesus, so it
was like the best part of Las Vegas or I mean,
like yeah, whatever, the classiest time. This is when people
were like tuxedos, sixtinos and stuff. And she became a
star very quickly because she was like the French girl
who got the right. Everyone else is like Dan or

(01:22:56):
nan or twisting it around.

Speaker 1 (01:22:58):
Someone make a fucking uh what's it called? A remix
of what Karen just did. You don't have to, don't
worry about it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
Okay. So one night Claudine is driving home from her
her job at the burlesque show. Her car breaks down
and then a good Smaritan pulls over to help her out.
It's Andy Williams. Oh, so she's the lucky lady, so hot.
So they're married on Christmas Day of nineteen sixty one,

(01:23:30):
and he is She's thirty one at the time and
she's eighteen. He started on Choose eighteen. Yeah, damn, damn.
This was Vegas in the early sixties. Yeah. The next year,
Andy Williams released Moon River, which is like legendary. Yeah,
all the money and he was one of the most
famous singers at the time. They got a mansion in Malibu,

(01:23:54):
and then in nineteen sixty three, Andy Williams got his
own TV show and Claudine had a baby the same
year and another baby the next year, but she still
wanted to be a performer, so she would appear on
the Andy Williams Show with him as his wife. Way
to watch these. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
I bet she had so many female orgasms it was ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
Well, because she's French and she was raised to be
in charge of her own orgasm.

Speaker 1 (01:24:17):
Yes, and to eat a lot of vegetables. Sure, okay,
I keep bringing that up.

Speaker 2 (01:24:22):
It's so gross. Go on, No, sorry, cook, It's not gross.
That's the whole point of our podcast. You're right, proud,
proud Andy Williams Christmas Show. Oh, I told you that already.
He's basically this guy is like everybody's favorite thing to
have on TV because it's easy to have on TV.
Like when you Andy Williams had like a Dean Martin quality,
but not racy, not drunk drunkie. He was more like

(01:24:46):
the guy from church.

Speaker 1 (01:24:47):
It wasn't like so sare what's the word swarthy? Those
were all words yep, but he is not that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
No, he's white bread, dominic down at this part of
the privileged power.

Speaker 1 (01:25:00):
And justice goes. I used to see them at parties
in Beverly Hills and thought they were beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
So they were kind of like an early sixties Hollywood
power Yeah. I love it. They have a third child
in nineteen sixty nine, and then later that year they
shock all of Hollywood by announcing that they're getting divorced,
because on the Andy Williams Show it was all very
family and you know, it was like the Osmond's is
that third child?

Speaker 1 (01:25:24):
Man?

Speaker 2 (01:25:25):
I am that one? You always read child? Were you
fucking ruined? Shit? So soon after her divorce in nineteen
sixty nine, she takes her three kids and moves to Aspen.
That's where Spider Savage was living at the time. Spider's
Savage in the sixties. It's such a crazy name as okay,
so he's the local hero, he's the golden boy. So

(01:25:46):
a little bit about Spider Savage. He's the reason he
has that nickname is because he was born premature and
when his father saw him, he said he was just
all arms and legs. He looked like a little spider.
So from a baby they called them Spider, which is
the cutest. He grew up skiing at Idolweiss Ski Area
in Kyber's, California, near modern day Sierra at Tahoe Ski Resort.

(01:26:10):
So it's just basically it's basically the you know that
part of northern California, but the mountain East Mountains where
it's all that's kind of what everybody does up there.
It's like snowboardings and skiing all the time. Uh, And
he kind of kicked off Like in the seventies, skiing

(01:26:31):
all of a sudden got really popular in this way
where like everyone, like when I was in grammar school,
like high school boys would wear ski jackets with their
lift tickets still on the zipper. It was like that
where it was. It was that early. It was heading
into the early eighties where being rich got really popular too,
like Izod shirts. Yeah, this was the pre Izod shirt

(01:26:53):
way of having status. Was like if you skied because
because there's like resorts, that's it. You don't go for
the day. Yeah, yeah, you have to have money to ski. Yeah.
So Spider Side which was like the king of skiing
and really like made it popular. He was.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
In nineteen sixty eight he made the Winter Olympic team,
placed fifth in the slalom event. He was blue eyed,
blonde haired, good looking, very skilled with the ladies, and
he was the most famous skier in America in nineteen
seventy one. That's when he moved to Oh I forgot
to say he torched. This is from that skiing website.

(01:27:36):
The quote was he torched the ski racing competition in
high school and was taken on scholarship to the Colorado
University at Boulder to ski with Billy Kid. So he
basically was, you know, like a little skiing savant.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
What's up, bolder, come on see you soon. So yeah,
that's right, heads up, older, We're gonna come ski with you.
Never never, ever. So in seventy one, after his big
successes and he's starting to make money and how he
had a ton of sponsors, and also you see these pictures,
he was just cool, looking like he had a real
chisel jaw. He kind of looked like Dennis Wilson, the

(01:28:13):
drummer for the but for the beach boys, like the
hot brother or like what's he doing? They never let
him talk. He looked like that guy with like you know,
he had big sideburns. Why can't just like he has
to say, so he's the drummer. Uh So, he he

(01:28:34):
always had like striped turtlenecks on, like he was just cool.
He was cool, dangerous. What's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:28:42):
He was like a beatnik kind of exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
That was like yeah, yeah, like a sunburned cheeks, rugged outdoorsy.
But then also sexy, super fucking hot. Okay, So seventy one,
he moves to Aspen because it's the place to be
for pros gear and obviously he's the star, so he's
going to be in the middle of all that. But
he's twenty seven. He's the richest prose gear on the circuit.

(01:29:07):
And there was a movie that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:08):
Robert Robert Redford stard in, yeah, called Downhill Racer that
is allegedly based on.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):
Site Spiders Redford. So like Robert Redford played him in
the seventies, that's how hot this guy was exactly. Okay,
So that's when he moved. You know, he's twenty seven
when he moves into Starwood, he's His neighbors are John Denver,
who was the cugest music star at the time, and
the man who owns Sears, Edgar Stern. His name was

(01:29:36):
So Sears plays into both our fucking murders, Sears Baby. Yeah,
that Sears was The seventies was all about Sears Rebecca company.
There's nothing like looking through the Sears catalog for Christmas
time trying to figure out what you wanted to get
for Christmas?

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
Do you know that they there's some there's a book.
There's like three books of It's just Sears catalogs from
the six fifties, sixties, and seventies.

Speaker 2 (01:29:59):
I'm buying this free, you know. Wacko.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
Yes, they have all this place in fucking hollywo Or
like Silver Lake has. He's insane books that someone made.
They just made the whole catalog. That's crazy Sears ship
for sale.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
I would even look. I would get so like into greedy.
What am I going to get? I want that? Yeah,
that I would take it into the curtains area, because
right after the toys was like the curtains, and I
do I want these curtains? Like my God, wouldn't end
that greed just just kept going on that. It was

(01:30:33):
just dreams of having nice things and now you can
do it. You have dogs, so you can't. That's right,
they'll rip those goddamn curtains down. Okay, so yeah go
Uh he moves to asmen. He joins the USA's Professional
Ski Racing Tour in nineteen seventy and he's the best
one on it. He's a babe magnet, as they would say. Uh.

(01:30:58):
And he starts doing celebrity ski racing events that are
designed to drum up support and fans for the US
Pro Tour that he was on because he did like
the World Cup. He was constantly competing as a professional skier.
So at one of those events in nineteen seventy two
in Bear Valley, he meets Claudine Lange and they quickly

(01:31:18):
become an item. She there's a story in that Dominic
Dunn show where it was like she saw him and
she asked a friend who was also a skier, who
is that? And then she like was she was? He
was in her sighte she was like, I'm getting that
guy for her. So basically it worked. They got together,

(01:31:38):
She moved into his house, took her kids, they all
lived in his house, and they became pictures on the
Aspen party circuit. Now this was nineteen seventy two Aspen
skiing party circuit, so it's all coke and it pays
so much money to go to one of those parties.
I mean imagine like the gold necklaces and the like
the tans on the frosty glass and it's an amazing

(01:32:03):
like log cabin mansions, like those houses of like really
high ceilings of white shag carpeting. I would I would
catch and so much coke, like coke to your ankles,
just like scoop it up off the ground, and like snow.
They're just scan it's snow, snow, snow everywhere, and they
are truly the it crowds. So there's a lot of
people that actually didn't like her because she moved in

(01:32:27):
so quickly, and he was so popular and had so
many girlfriends and friends, and you know, got around and
was this young, you know, beautiful playboy pro athlete, and
she basically got in there and locked that shit down
and was like, I'm in your house. We're a boyfriend girlfriend.

Speaker 1 (01:32:44):
So after she moved in, his wild days abruptly ended,
which was a hard adjustment for him.

Speaker 2 (01:32:52):
There was fighting. She was very jealous, but she kind
of had reason to be. At one point she had
to forbid him from attending the Best Breast Back. Yes
she should have. Yeah, they were you know, it's the seventies, Jesus.
They would do things and.

Speaker 1 (01:33:07):
So this is like these this inner circle super rich
like sports partying.

Speaker 2 (01:33:12):
Yeah, they were doing where it's like, well, I'm gonna
have a party at my house. Bring your best hits.
We'll line them up and I know.

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):
Wet t shirt contests, were like, the thought of that now, Yeah,
it was so normal.

Speaker 2 (01:33:24):
Yeah, and this was like a voluntary wet t shirt
contest where no one was being paid or anything. That
wasn't at a bar. Yeah, best breast, So he couldn't go.
He was mad, She was mad. There's stories of them
being at a nightclub, him not paying enough attention to her,
so she throws an entire glass of wine at him

(01:33:46):
from across the road. Jesus, it's all coke fueled. Yeah,
everyone loves it though, yes exactly. This was back when
they didn't think coke is bad for you. And by
nineteen seventy five, their relationship was beginning to strain, and
he was skiing less, partying more. She had to stay
home with kids. Of course, she was intensely jealous of

(01:34:07):
the women that he got to constantly interact with and
the women they were totally drawn to him, and that
I'm sure he was drawn to as well. By January
of nineteen seventy six, he was telling friends he wanted
her out of his life, but she wouldn't leave. Oh no.
And they say that a lot of the reason that
he didn't just kick her to the curb was because
he loved her kids, and he really cared about her kids,

(01:34:27):
and he didn't want them to suffer in any way.
So he kept kept it going longer than probably he
wanted to or should have, because he just was so
been there, worried about yeah, worried about So Spider and
Claudiine spent the morning oh sorry. By March of seventy six,

(01:34:49):
he gave her the ultimatum to move out by April first.
So he waited all that time and then was like, look,
you've got to go, And the only reason I said
that already. So they spent the morning of March twenty
first apart. He was skiing, she was sipping wine at
a bar called Little Mells in the morning. She was

(01:35:10):
twenty fucking box that it was shabby, a nice breakfast wine.
She was like, I fucking hate my life. My hot
boyfriend's kicking me out. What am I going to do?
My favorite murder line of breakfast wines. Please they go
with eggs. Yeah, you can port into cereal. Whatever it
takes to get you to noon, to your lunch beard,

(01:35:32):
to your nap, to your lunch beer. Okay. So later
that day she joins him at a party at the
home of an ABC sportscaster. I should have written his
name down is Bill Something. It's always Bill Something. But
I also love that it's like there's an afternoon party
like whatever. But people noted that at this party they

(01:35:53):
were not their normal selves. They weren't being warmed, they
were barely around each other, and they left separately. A
lot of people loaded it. So a little bit later
that day, she was seen driving around town erratically, and
she eventually drove through the gates of Star Wars star
Wood at a very high rate of speed. Breakfast wine,

(01:36:14):
breakfast wine fueled. It'll get you a car raide so
many times it's gotten me hubble. And then very soon
after her speeding through the gates of Starwood, the gunshots
will report it come on. So the ballistics showed that
she was standing more than six feet away from Spider

(01:36:36):
when the gun went off. And Spider's father was a
highway patrolman and he grew up with guns. He knew
a lot about gun safety and proper gun handling, and
he would have never taught someone to shoot inside the house, right,
that's just basic gun safety stuff of you. If you're

(01:36:56):
teaching someone how to use a gun, you don't let
them hold the gun and point it out, you b
and you don't do it in the bathroom. See. But
also he can't teach her how to use the gun
if she's standing six feet away with the gun and
he's got his back to her bending over, honey. Okay.
So they also found small indentations in the cartridge of

(01:37:20):
the bullet, which meant that the gun had jammed and
the trigger had been pulled three or four times before
it discharged. No. So at the trial that was in
January of nineteen seventy seven.

Speaker 1 (01:37:35):
Can you imagine, like I'm going to kill this person. No, wait,
I'm gonna try it like shoot didn't work. No, I'm
doing aget like that many times.

Speaker 2 (01:37:44):
Like wine stupid again. Yeah, she just has to stand
there like keep trying. And also he's in this he's
about to take a shower, so like is the shower running,
he can't hear the clicks, Like he's not so far away,
he doesn't even know she's in the room. It's so creepy, okay,

(01:38:05):
and so different than the original like what she claimed.
So at the trial, she said that her diary was
not out on the dresser, that she had hidden it
away in the drawer, and then the defense showed the photographs.
The police photographs were at one point it's there or
what it starts out, not there, then it's there, which

(01:38:27):
essentially the police photographs proved her story.

Speaker 1 (01:38:31):
That it was never out there in the first place,
I meaning what they planted it right.

Speaker 2 (01:38:38):
But that they found it that they basically didn't weren't
allowed to search because if you have something in a
drawer that's not really yeah, you can't search for it.
That's illegal search and seizure. I guess, shit, So yeah,
I guess. So it's like considered private. I don't know.
It has to be out in open views. Everyone hyde

(01:38:58):
your diaries go now deeply and between your mattresses. So
also so everything written in that diary, which was all
her talking about how the relationship had soured, how he
was kicking her out. They had it all on paper
from her voice, and none of that was admissible in court.

(01:39:18):
Buck Then they mishandled the gun, so a cop picked
it up with a handkerchief and put it into the
glove box of a cop car. That's how he had
That's how they dealt with the murder weapons. It's like
a naked gun into the fuck. They're just like, Murray,
can you take this and make sure it gets processed?

(01:39:39):
And he was like, no problem, Murray.

Speaker 1 (01:39:40):
That that fucking tissue that you used to blow your
nose on ten minutes ago. Can you use that tissue
to pick up that gun?

Speaker 2 (01:39:47):
Yeah, and then pass it over here to this guy
that's never had a job before. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:39:52):
Essentially the person that ended up taking the car, this
cop took those bullets out of the gun, and because
he was not a trained ballistics expert, all of that
information that there were more inventations on the cartridge was
also not admissible court because anything could have happened when
that person was handling the gun. So now the jury

(01:40:16):
can't know that the relationship was ending, or that it
was a misfire.

Speaker 2 (01:40:22):
It wasn't just one accidental shot. The trigger had been
pulled up to and maybe more than four times. They
did use the autopsy report to suggest that when Savage
was struck, he was bent over, facing away and at
least six feet away from her, which was inconsistent with

(01:40:42):
her story. Now as this is as the trial starts,
of course, aspens overrun with reporters and there's they're everywhere.
They're taking up everything there and they're trying to get
stories from everybody. The locals, of course, are disgusted. They're
not having it. They hate them all. They're not talking
to them. Hunter S. Thompson lived in Aspen at the time,

(01:41:05):
and he was quoted as saying, it's like fouling your
own nest woo, because basically it's like you know, they
her shooting him has basically ruined their entire community and
drawing those people there. Also a reporter, a local overhearder
reporter saying this is the best we have murder. We

(01:41:26):
have sex, and we have drugs. So they were like, oh,
there was Reporters were thrilled about this story thirsty. The
prosecution rested after two days, arguing that she that Claudine
should have known the gun was going to go off,
and the strategy was because they weren't going to be
able to convict her without the actual evidence that they needed,

(01:41:49):
so they wanted to get her on the lesser charge
of criminal negligence. The defense put her on the stand
and from the first day in court for the jury selection,
she was dressed in big, baggy gray dresses. She was
wearing peter pant collars and turtlenecks. She was totally made
did everything she could to make herself look plain, unpretty

(01:42:12):
and now like the gorgeous starlet that she was. She
spoke so softly when she was on the stand that
the jurors had to lean forward in their seats to
hear her.

Speaker 1 (01:42:22):
They're so manipulative when they have to move their bodies
to come here, you right.

Speaker 2 (01:42:27):
And like that she when she does, there's like a
thing where she makes a h after she's after it's over,
she makes this public statement and she's like, I just
want to say that. Like she really does talk like
a little kitten girl all the time. So she she

(01:42:50):
maintained it was accidental shooting. She stuck to her story.
She said she and Spider were still in love. He
was her best friend. She could never kill anyone, especially
not him. The jury deliberated for just under three hours,
and the verdict was guilty of negligent homicide, which meant
that she could be facing up to two years in prison,

(01:43:11):
but the judge changed that conviction to a misdemeanor of
criminal negligence and sentenced her to spend thirty days in
the Pitkin County Jail and to pay a fine of
two hundred and fifty.

Speaker 1 (01:43:28):
Dollars two hundred dollars for taking someone's entire life.

Speaker 2 (01:43:32):
Yeah, there are people that were like that. People who
like drunk drivers get worse, get worse sentences. And they
said that the Picken County Jail in Aspen was like
Maybury with really good room service. Yeah, fucking send me there.

Speaker 1 (01:43:49):
I mean, they allowed her to repaint her cell pink
when she was there, but she Wow, the critical The
judge said that she had to serve her thirty.

Speaker 2 (01:44:01):
Days in jail, but that she could do it when
it was convenient for her. Oh, it's not Jerry fucking duty.
So she even Jerry duty. It doesn't work that way.
Well yeah, so it was real. Oh yeah, real like that.
I mean there's a you could you could theorize distantly
that maybe someone was on the take, that it would

(01:44:23):
it would end up being that forgiving toward her. Sure,
the critical reaction to the verdict and toward her and
the sentencing was exacerbated when she, after the trouble was over,
went on vacation to Mexico with her defense attorney, Ron
Austin No, who was married at the time. No, yeah, honey.

(01:44:45):
They later married and they still live in Aspen. Like
now now well at the airing of power, privilege in justice,
like you and I?

Speaker 1 (01:44:53):
Could you and I and Stephen call the Burbank Airport
right now and get her fucking plan and go meet them.

Speaker 2 (01:44:57):
No, the Burbank air blarts closed, not for her. No,
damn it called the Urban. After the criminal trial, Savage's
parents filed a three million dollars wrongful death lawsuit against
Lage in May of nineteen seventy seven that was eventually
resolved out of court in September of nineteen seventy nine
with the proviso that Lange never tell or write about

(01:45:20):
the story. Wow and Mick Jagger wrote a song called
Claudine for the emotional Rescue Rolling Stones album. No, it
was never released because they found out about it and
like basically said, will suit you shit? Lost track? Right,
And that is the murder of Spider Savage. I have

(01:45:42):
never even fucking heard that name before. Really, I think
I considered it like kind of a moldy oldie of like,
because it's so sensational, it's so celebrity and rich people.

Speaker 1 (01:45:53):
You want to see their photos. I want to see
all I've never and so they're still alive.

Speaker 2 (01:45:58):
Uh, he's not.

Speaker 1 (01:46:00):
Let's say no, come on, you said they wait what wait?

Speaker 2 (01:46:06):
Start over? Start over? I miss tell it again, I
miss the middle. Wow. I don't know if she still
loved because I actually, as I was pulling up to
your house, it was looking up Claudie Lange today and
hitting things and like, I can't drive. Well you shouldn't,
it shouldn't. But then also if my glasses on, I
can't read small. Yeah, let's pretend she is that. You

(01:46:28):
know what that can be. Everybody else if you're and
if you're interested in the Claudaine Lange story, go ahead
and google it, yeah, and then tell us about it
on Twitter. That's right, if there's anything good. My friend
John Levenstein, who I work with, is we were actually
talking about it in the room today and he said,
I think there was a hoax. There was something about
a hoax in that case, but I couldn't. I looked

(01:46:50):
it up in four different ways and I couldn't find
anything about what he was talking about. Where are her
kids is what I want to know? And can they
have a podcast? Well, Andy Williams, when all that starts.
He flew in and he would go to court with her.
He like stood by her and really supported her, and
I think maybe just as much for the kids as
anyone else. But like there was there was a bit

(01:47:11):
of a like United Front presentation in that way, which
always helps the defense when when also helps those kids,
Like it's not I mean, at least they had someone.
I don't know. It just makes me feel slightly better
that they could go back to their Malibu mansion and
go live there and you know, yeah be and at

(01:47:33):
least have a dad's around normalish life. Oh song man, Yeah,
what a boomer. Okay, we are back, Karen. Do you
have any updates? I do, yes. Claudine Lange is now
in her eighties, still married to that former lawyer, Ron Austin.

(01:47:53):
In twenty twenty two, it was revealed that Spider Savage
had a daughter in nineteen sixty seven. Her name is
miss See Grace. She didn't know who her birth father
was until she was twenty years old. She's now contributed
to various documentary projects on her father's life. Recently, she
worked with Amy Redford, who is Robert Redford's daughter, on
her feature length documentary and Amy Redford says that this

(01:48:17):
documentary tells the whole Spider Savage story. So it looks
like it's still in production, but it's really cool this
idea that there's going to be like this kind of
like next generation of TV and films. That are these
stories that we have been talking about for ten years,
you know what I mean, Like all of these things

(01:48:38):
that when we hear about them or they come up,
it's like, I can't wait to see that, and I
can't wait to see how somebody else tells the story.

Speaker 1 (01:48:44):
I know, like when I was researching the Mainline Murders again,
I was like, I wish I could redo this story
because it's so fascinating. I want to talk about it
now again.

Speaker 2 (01:48:53):
I mean, I wish I could redo every single goddamn
episode that we've heard so far. Hopefully that's a given people, Yeah,
listen to these understand that, right, because we just do
so many great ones. And it used to be when
we did these stories, like my documents were never more
than five pages long. Isn't that hilarious? They're not three
times longer.

Speaker 1 (01:49:13):
Yeah, they're so much longer now. I fear what I
was like that I was thirty seven at the time,
this was episode seventy five. We've done five hundred episodes
now like that, I want to do some rea, Like
let's start from the beginning and do them all over.

Speaker 2 (01:49:28):
What if we did five hundred episodes again? Oh the
real answer? Yeah, the final murder would be our double
murder for sure, wouldn't it? Does it feel like it? Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:49:39):
All right, well let's head back into wrap of the show.

Speaker 2 (01:49:45):
What's your pure positive of the week? I don't know yet,
what's yours? I so hard my story for so long.
I'm just trying so hard to think of it. You
know what.

Speaker 1 (01:49:59):
It's running errands with Vince. Like he's not working right now,
which is great. I mean he's he's our tour.

Speaker 2 (01:50:06):
Manager, but yet to go to anywhere, which is.

Speaker 1 (01:50:13):
Kind of new for us, and like, you know, they're
really stupid, like to get the post and then I
have to go to the fuck hid to get my prescription.
I have to do this and that, and like we
go together and then we go get lunch while we're
doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:50:24):
It's just like it's so nice.

Speaker 1 (01:50:27):
I like being alone a lot, but I don't mind
it when I'm with him. I'd rather be with him
than alone, which is really rare for me. So it's
just running errands with him makes me really fucking happy,
like we did it today, and.

Speaker 2 (01:50:39):
It's just that's nice. It's just fucking cool. It's much
better with him around. It's kid, you married him, I know, right,
it's going to keep him around a little. Yeah, at
least through our tour. That's yours. I'm trying to think.
I mean, I love that dinner that we got to
go to. Our friend invited us to a weekly dinner

(01:51:02):
that they do, which was very cool, and it was
just like one of those things where I sitting there
and it was such good food and it was such
fun like smart, funny people, and it was one of
those the feel of it, I was like, oh, this
is how like healthy adults live their life like you.
This is this is how you're supposed to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:51:22):
It's not like you have when you have a weekly meeting.
It's like you have uh, it's not like I'll see
you when I see you. It's like you have this
obligation to these people and throughout the week, like however
bad your week is, you know you're still going to
see these people on Sunday and it's going to be nice.

Speaker 2 (01:51:38):
And I kind of like what people make a community
for themselves. Yeah, make like if you don't have the
family around you that maybe either you used to have
or that some people other people do have or don't have,
you still set up kind of like a community for yourself.
It's good. I think it's so healthy for people.

Speaker 1 (01:52:00):
Nice when you turn your friends into family. So thanks
Dave Clock for inviting us.

Speaker 2 (01:52:04):
Thanks Dave Clock, and also thanks for that restaurant. And
maybe we shouldn't blow it up, but yeah, because I
don't normally like red sauce and that bread. There was
a bowl of red sauce they gave you to dip
your bread in, and I was just like, I would
like to do this for the rest of my life.

Speaker 1 (01:52:22):
And the breads is like insane rosemary bread. That was
just like fucking the best bread I've ever had.

Speaker 2 (01:52:28):
It was really good. That was really nice. That's it. Yeah, yes,
because the first thing I thought it was like I
did a comedy show, but I was like, I hated
my set and I hate this and then EMAILM yeah,
and so I don't know, all right, well that's I
think that's lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:52:44):
Thanks, Okay, we are back. I just got to say
this the thing that I say that it is my
favorite thing of the week. We talk about going out
to dinner with our friends and how lovely it was,
and it was. And one of those friends that we
are at dinner with that night has since died, and

(01:53:04):
it is one of the saddest first of all, like
one of the saddest deaths of a young person.

Speaker 2 (01:53:10):
It was died too young. His name is Neil Mahoney.
And it breaks my heart to think about that night
and how fun and excited I was and we all
were to be there and what a great time we
were having. And I just think it's a good thing
to point out of like, do not take your friends
for granted, do not take your family for granted, don't

(01:53:30):
really take any of this for granted. Because as I've
said a thousand times around o'clock, and it's kind of
shocking to look back and be like, oh, that makes
me really sad to be like, that was this highlight
of my week.

Speaker 1 (01:53:42):
Totally, and it feels so recent but so long ago.
It was so long ago. It's just crazy how much
things change.

Speaker 2 (01:53:50):
It really is. It's I mean, it is weird too,
because this is our lives that we're looking back on, right,
It's nuts, it's our actual lives. None of this was
fucking written for your enjoyment, and actually we were just
like at home, not doing the things we're talking, right.
But then the other side of that is that it's
so cute. You're like, my favorite thing this week is

(01:54:10):
me and Vince ran errands together, where I'm just and
here we are ten years later, Like, no, it's just
it's so.

Speaker 1 (01:54:17):
Sweet and hearing about the pod loft and my new
apartment that I was so excited about, you know, and
it's like things are so different now I was able
to like buy a home. Yeah, Vince is with me
every day running errands. Still, it's very I just feel
like no time has passed and so much fucking time
is passed at the same time.

Speaker 2 (01:54:37):
Yeah, it's wild. Okay. So for the titles of this episode,
it's originally called Breakfast Wine, but if.

Speaker 1 (01:54:42):
We were going to name it today based on something else,
maybe we would name it.

Speaker 2 (01:54:46):
Oh, pocket full of Glitter, which is my demand to Steve.
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:54:52):
We could also call it a Skipper's Dream show because
it was so short in the intro.

Speaker 2 (01:54:57):
Yeah, that's true, and by short we meant thirty five
minutes long insanity. Also, we could call it every other
kind of math, which which is George's joke about being
bad at the present math she's talking about, and every
other kind of math always and forever.

Speaker 1 (01:55:13):
All right, Well, thank you guys for listening to another
episode of rewind. Let's let us say goodbye in twenty seventeen.
Thank you guys for listening, and for being fucking cool
as shit, and we're on Twitter and Instagram and all
these places and all that stuff, and thank yeah, thank you,
and mostly stay sexy and don't get murdered. Elvis, do

(01:55:38):
you want to cook?

Speaker 2 (01:55:39):
Ye? Wait, you want to cooky? Bye bye

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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 75: Breakfast Wine

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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