May 7, 2025 • 33 mins
At the trial, the prosecution scores a win from a surprising witness: the defendant’s mother. She’s been asked to help convict her son, but it’s unclear whether it will be enough to put Daisy’s killer behind bars.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This episode discusses intimate partner violence and sexual assault. Please
listen with care. On April twenty seventh, twenty twenty two,
Claudia Gutierrez took the stand at her son's murder trial.
She recounted how about a year and a half earlier,
(00:22):
Victor had gone missing. After he didn't come home one night,
she tried texting him. There was no reply. Then she
texted Daisy. She figured they were together again, no reply.
It wasn't totally unusual for him not to come home.
He sometimes slept on the streets or stayed in motels.
(00:43):
But after a couple nights passed and Claudia still hadn't
seen or heard from Victor, she started to become worried.
She went to her local police station and filed a
missing person's report. It was February twenty fifth, twenty twenty one,
just two days after Day had been found dead. A
couple of weeks went by no sign of Victor, and
(01:06):
then Claudia told the jury she got a phone call.
It was him. He wanted to talk and he needed money.
He gave his mother his location and she agreed to
meet him somewhere on the street. By that point, she
must have learned that Daisy had been murdered, because when
she met up with her son, she asked him point blank,
(01:28):
did you do it? Meaning did you kill Daisy? But
Victor didn't respond, at least not verbally. He just lowered
his head.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
For me, that is important as the prosecutor presenting evidence
because it's what we call an adoptive admission.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
That's Deputy District Attorney Leslie Hinshaw. She was the prosecutor
on this case, and to her, this moment, this moment
where Victor's mother described her son hanging his head, it
was a big deal.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Basically, the theory on an adoptive admission is that if
you didn't do it, you would say no, I didn't
do it. What are you talking about? But when you
don't say anything, you're basically accepting the truth of it
without saying yes, without agreeing.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
As the prosecutor, Leslie had anticipated this moment. She'd interviewed
Claudia before the trial started, and she'd questioned her on
the stand during the preliminary hearing about seven months before that,
and during that hearing, Claudia testified that she urged her
son to do the right thing, to turn himself into
the authorities. She said that he responded by telling her
(02:44):
that he was going to do it. He was going
to turn himself in. That was the last time she
saw him, but at trial, Claudia's recollection had become hazy.
When Leslie questioned her, she said she couldn't remember whether
Victor had told her that he turned himself in. I
don't remember if he said anything like that, she told
(03:06):
the court.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I remember being like, oh gosh, now I have to
impeach her, because I think I had to confront her
with some of her statements in the past. I don't
remember the specifics of it, but I do remember thinking
that she was minimizing either what Victor had said or
done or her interaction with him. That in it of itself,
(03:29):
it didn't surprise me that she did that because of
you know, obviously she's Victor's mother. Maybe I was being
a little naive and hoping that she would just.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Do what was right.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I mean, she didn't lie. I think she I think
getting up there and then seeing her son kind of
made her really upset. And I can't blame her for that,
and I don't blame her for that.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
There was another part of the story that Claudia a
little differently at trial. So previously she'd said that she
gave her some five hundred dollars a few days before
she met up with him a second time to ask
if he'd done it, But at trial she said she
thought maybe all of these things happened during one single interaction,
(04:18):
like maybe she'd asked him that question and he put
his head down and she didn't take that to be
any sort of admission of guilt, I mean, or maybe
the trauma really did just play tricks on her memory.
It's hard to unpack it either way. It was almost
like Claudia was unsure of herself, like she was questioning
reality itself, Like did all of these things really happen?
(04:41):
Maybe it was all just a bad dream? Was she
really about to help convict her own son. It was
a tough position to be in, and Leslie knew that.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
She was a witness of mine, and I have compassion
for the position that she is in in that I
am asking her to testify against her son, and that's
not an easy thing to do. To think about how
(05:13):
terrible that must feel. That she knows the truth of
her conversations with Victor and this is her son, and
she's being asked to be the bigger person, but to
tell on her son person that she birthed, and that's
a really, really tough thing to ask someone to do.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
The magnitude of this testimony was not lost on Susie.
She would send me these voice memos during the trial,
especially on days when I couldn't be there in person.
She'd recap some of the testimonies and tell me how
she felt about everything that day as she was driving
home or picking up dinner. And there was something that
she said to me in a voice memo on the
day that Claudia took.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
The stand her many mothers they had tested fight amains
their kids. That took a lot, honestly.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
A lot of strength, I think is what she meant.
And in a way, Susie saw how she and Claudia
both had a lot in common.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
You know, Jenner, for this time, it was I guess
this is the first time I actually feel for her,
because I don't know. It was very tough to see
her actually facing her son and child with the jury
with us. It was hard to see. It was hard
to see, like you know, both of us lost our kids.
(06:35):
I lost my kids to her kids for murder, you know,
and it's horrible, but you know, it's more horrible to
think your kids caught all the pain, you know, something
I can't even imagine. So I honestly feel for her.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
I do feel for her.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I am Jen Swan from London Audio iHeart Radio and
executive producer Parison. This is My Friend Daisy, Episode eight,
Cycle of Violence. I spoke with Leslie at the Hall
(07:18):
of Justice in downtown Los Angeles. It's this big granite
building from the nineteen twenties. It sandwiched between the courthouses
and City Hall. Leslie was transferred here from the Compton
Die's office that's where she worked back when she was
assigned the case known as the State of California versus
Victor Sosa. We sat in a small meeting room. It
(07:40):
had these kid friendly illustrations on the wall and stuffed
animals on the couch. Leslie works on cases related to
domestic violence and sex crimes, and it occurred to me
that this room that we were sitting in it was
meant to make children feel comfortable talking about deeply uncomfortable subjects.
It made me wan under how Leslie found herself in
(08:02):
this line of work. Can you tell me how you
got into this, Like have you always wanted to be
a prosecutor and how did you end up.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
In sex crimes?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So I know, I went to law school because I
actually wanted to work in sports. I was a sport
managed major in college and I wanted to be a
general manager of a Major League baseball team.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
That obviously did not happen because somewhere along the way,
Leslie ended up taking a class on criminal procedure. She
decided she wanted to become a public defender. Well that
didn't exactly pan out either.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
The Public Defender's office didn't have any externships open, but
the DA's office did, and I was like, well, I've
never had any criminal experience, so I'll go and try
it out. And I loved it. It was I think
it helped that I was watching the wire at the
same time, and so what I was doing was it
(08:59):
kind of mirrored what was going on in the wire
that I was watching, and I was like, this is insane,
this is amazing.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Leslie's been prosecuting sex crimes and domestic violence cases for
about six years now. She said she doesn't know exactly
why she gravitated towards it, but she thinks it has
something to do with wanting to help vulnerable people, women, children,
people who don't always feel comfortable or safe identifying as victims,
(09:27):
people like Daisy. I know that Susannah was trying to
report I think it was the skateboard incident at one point,
and she says that she was told that she couldn't
report it because Daisy wouldn't disclose it. Like, I'm just
curious if that's something you've encountered where someone has tried
to report it and they've been told they can't report
it because they're a minor.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So I don't really know what happened in that, Like
I don't, Yeah, I don't really know what happened specifically
with why the deputies told her what they did, But
generally speaking, if a victim is an adult and they
don't want to disclose, then there's really nothing police can do.
(10:09):
Right as a child, I would think it's different. I
would think personally that a parent or guardian could bring
their child to the police station and say, this happened
to my kid. I want you to take a report,
as the police officer, even if the child doesn't want
(10:29):
to say anything. I would at least take I would think,
I mean, I would want them to at least take
a report and then notify DCFS Department of Child and
Family Services so that there can be some involvement in
figuring out what's going on.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
But to your knowledge, there wasn't reports of domestic violence
at all in this case.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
To my knowledge, there were no actual police reports of
domestic violence related to Victor and Daisy.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Daisy was a minor, and this system, which was supposed
to protect her it failed. It's hard not to think
about what might have gone differently, or if anything would
have gone differently, if a report had been taken, if
just one mandated reporter, like a nurse or a social
worker had intervened, at the very least, a report almost
(11:24):
certainly would have been introduced as evidence during the trial,
evidence that could have helped to establish a motive. But
because no such evidence existed, and because Leslie felt that
the DNA evidence was strong enough on its own, she
never told the jury about the domestic violence in Victor
and Daisy's relationship. She said she didn't realize until after
(11:47):
she prepared the case that there had been a first
hand witness to at least one of these assaults, someone
who might have been able to testify Daisy's little brother.
And I want to just quickly note that I'm here
talking to a prosecutor, someone tasked with working with police
to enforce the law and punish those who break it.
(12:07):
But there are plenty of reasons why a person experiencing
intimate partner violence may not want to involve the legal
or criminal justice system at all. I mean, for one thing,
they might fear retaliation from their abuser, it could escalate
the violence. And if there's children or a shared household involved,
one partner being sent to jail could result in a
(12:29):
loss of income or a loss of childcare. This is
all to say that victims have a lot to weigh
when it comes to deciding whether to disclose their abuse
to authorities. There are plenty of reasons for them to
lose faith in the legal system, and in Leslie's experience,
that's not uncommon.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
With domestic violence cases. Even if there's an initial disclosure,
you find that a lot of times there is a
recantation where the victim will tell us that they were
making up what they initially said, or they lied about it.
You know a lot of their hesitation or the recantation,
the reporting, and then you know saying they don't want
(13:10):
to be a part of it has to do with
the cycle of violence that they go through. Domestic violence
is very there's a very specific, very much studied cycle
of violence that happens with domestic violence victims.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And this cycle can be really hard to break.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
The way it works is when a person has finally
almost like had enough, They're like, I'm done, I'm done.
I can't do this anymore. This person has hurt me enough,
like I'm done. That's usually when they report. But then
the person will come back and say, I'm really sorry.
I promise it won't happen again. That was terrible of
(13:51):
me to do. I should have never done that. They
may buy them gifts, they may to take them out,
and then the victor is like, maybe this time this
person actually will change. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is different,
this is different this time, and then you start the
cycle all over again, and it can be very frustrating
(14:12):
for people on the outside to look in and see
so clearly, yet the person that you love can't see
it at all. You really can't force someone to get
out of a domestic violence relationship, because unless that person
has a self awareness to say I can't do this anymore,
you may take the person out for a little bit,
(14:33):
but they're either going to go back to the person
or they're to enter into another relationship that is just
as bad.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
There were people in Daisy's life who tried to take
her out of the relationship with Victor, who tried to
break the cycle. And it wasn't just her own mother,
it was also Victor's. I discovered this while reading a
transcript of a conversation that happened early on in the trial.
The conversation was on the record, and it was between
(15:09):
Leslie Henshaw, the prosecutor aj Bain, who was Victor's public defender,
and the judge Sean Cohen. The jurors had been dismissed
for lunch, and Leslie was telling the judge about something
she was considering submitting as evidence, which was that when
she interviewed Claudia several months earlier, Claudia said that there
were times when she would hear Victor and Daisy arguing,
(15:32):
times when she saw bruises on Daisy. Claudia told Leslie
that this was the reason She did not allow Daisy
into her house. She wanted to prevent her son from
being alone with her. I had known that Daisy's mother
had banned Victor from her home, but I did not
know that Claudia had banned Daisy from hers. Here were
these two mothers who, as far as I could tell,
(15:54):
had never met each other. They lived in different cities,
They lived totally different lives, but in their own way,
unbeknownst to each other, they were both trying to protect Daisy.
There was something else I learned in these trial transcripts
that Claudia had told Leslie, which was that at one
(16:14):
point she drove Daisy home, and as the two of
them sat in the car together, Claudia told Daisy about
her own experience with domestic violence. She urged Daisy to
get out of the relationship. She also told Daisy to
get a restraining order against her son. Here was a
mother telling her son's girlfriend, pleading with her behind his
(16:39):
back to leave him, and not just to leave him,
but to take legal action against him. The situation was
that serious. Claudia sensed this, and she had tried to intervene.
I remember reading about this in the transcript and just
feeling stunned. It contured to did this image of Claudia
(17:02):
that had emerged during the trial, which was a mother
trying to protect her son, agreeing to testify against him,
but then changing her story on the stand, omitting or
minimizing certain details. Her testimony raised questions about whether she
had known about the murder before she gave Victor the money,
whether she had helped him flee the country, and whether
(17:24):
she really believed that her son had gone missing when
she filed that missing person's report with the police. Claudia's
relationship with her son and with Daisy was obviously more nuanced,
more complicated, and almost certainly more difficult than what was
conveyed at trial. I wanted to try to understand more
about it, to hear from Claudia outside of court, so
(17:48):
I wrote her a letter. I told her that I
was doing this project and that it was important to
me to get her perspective. I told her that Daisy's story,
it seemed to me, was also a story about multiple
generations of women, mothers, daughters, women whose lives had been
affected by various cycles of violence. I never got a response,
(18:12):
and I wasn't even sure if she'd gotten the letter,
so I decided to drive to her house one night.
I was hoping to speak with her in person, introduce
myself at least. I knocked on the door and she answered,
and when I identified myself, her face just dropped, her
eyes started welling up. She didn't slam the door in
(18:33):
my face. She didn't seem to be angry. She just
seemed sad. She allowed me to stand there, uncomfortably awkwardly
on her doorstep and ask for an interview. And she
listened to me, but she shook her head. No, I can't,
she said, I can't. It struck me just how painful
this must have been for her on a number of levels.
(18:56):
I mean, her son had committed a murder, and the
person he killed was the person she had been trying
to protect. The day after Victor's mother took the stand,
Leslie gave her closing argument. It was the last day
(19:18):
of a nearly two week long trial, and it was
her last chance to convince the jury that Victor was
guilty of deliberate, premeditated first degree murder. Leslie started by
recounting the last night of Daisy's life, how she and
her family had been watching television in their living room,
how her grandfather had seen a masked man in the window.
(19:41):
How Daisy kissed her mother and her grandmother goodbye and
said she'd be right back. How everyone went to sleep
and Daisy didn't come back. And then Leslie started recapping
the evidence. She talked about how the surveillance footage showed
a person dragging something near the area where Daisy's body
(20:01):
was found, how this figure appeared to have shoulder length
black hair, the same as Victor at the time, according
to testimonies from his mother and Daisy's grandfather and Daisy's
neighbor Jeffrey. And then there was the adoptive admission, when
Victor seemed to confess to his mother by simply lowering
his head when she asked if he had done it.
(20:23):
Leslie reminded the jury that after Daisy's murder, Victor fled
the country and changed his appearance. This is because of
what she called his consciousness of guilt, The same consciousness
of guilt, she argued, that led to him covering Daisy's body,
hiding what he had done with a rug, the rug
(20:44):
that had bloodstains on it, bloodstains that presented a DNA
match with Victor, just like the bloodstains on the knife
found next to Daisy's body. Leslie pointed out that there's
a kind of intimacy that using a knife on a
human body choirs a literal physical closeness to another person.
(21:06):
And the words that she used, the motions she made
with her hands when she described just how many times
Victor stabbed Daisy, they were haunting. They still haunt me.
They are lodged deep into my brain to this day.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
You slabor broke.
Speaker 6 (21:26):
And not only did he do that, but he also
stab her rightful avidity eighty times.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
And once was it twice? It was eight times?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Maybe you heard me exhale after Leslie said that it
was an exhalation of dread. And it wasn't the first
time that I had heard this information. The medical examiner
had talked about it at length on the stand just
a day earlier. There were fifty eight stab wounds on
the right side of Daisy's skull. Fifty eight. It was
(22:07):
hard to even fathom that number, that repetition of violence
every single time I heard it, which is why in
this recording you might hear me literally squirming in my seat,
especially when Leslie started clapping her hands and counting.
Speaker 6 (22:24):
Wow, three, three, four, six, seven, eight, not sent eleven.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Leslie kept counting. She said every single number leading up
to fifty eight, every number representing a separate stab wound two.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
Five or six or seven or eight or not or
what for two? Or three? For four or five or
six or seven? For eight or nine? Fifty one?
Speaker 6 (22:54):
It's two, it's three, it's four, it's five, six, seven, eight, fifty.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
Fifty eight times.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Susie and her cousin were sitting in the row ahead
of me. You can hear them sniffling in this recording.
They were passing tissues to each other.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Now, I suspect the defense would come up here and say, well,
they were just superficial wounds.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
When we did hear the corner say that, But he
also said that this portion of.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
Someone's skull is one of the.
Speaker 6 (23:26):
Hardest areas to cut through, and when he does autopsies
on this portion of a person's skull, he will use
a saw.
Speaker 7 (23:37):
So you don't use a knife at someone's head.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Because and cause injuries, because you want to lait at
that or mess with that.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
You injure someone's head.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
Because it is an incredibly important part of our anatomy,
and because.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
You want to kill them. This injury is not one.
Speaker 6 (24:17):
Where someone doesn't intend to kill them.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
It is gruesome, it is horrific.
Speaker 6 (24:25):
It is a cold and callous act to cause that
injury to someone, and these.
Speaker 5 (24:34):
Injuries to a person's head is a continued, cold and
calculated act.
Speaker 6 (24:44):
The defendant committed a first degree murder when he murdered
Daisy Delttle.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
He intended to kill her. He did it with a premeditation,
a lit and of globleness.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
And then before closing, Leslie acknowledged all the stuff we
didn't know, the lingering questions the jury might still have
about things, she said, we might be able to make
inferences about, but could not definitively prove about things like
sexual assault. And I should warn you. Leslie's speech here
is graphic. It's about ninety seconds long. If you want
(25:28):
to just gip ahead.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
Now.
Speaker 7 (25:31):
There was some testimony and evidence that I submit to you.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
I cannot explain to you. You may have reasonable inferences
for what it means. Daisy was found faced down with
her pants.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
Pulled down.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
Below her butttops and her sweatshirt lifted above her back.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
You may have reasonable inferences for the defendants.
Speaker 8 (26:02):
Epithelial DNA was found on her external genital area as
well as her anal opening.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
You may have reasonable inferences for that.
Speaker 6 (26:13):
The defendant sperm DNA was found on her tampon that
was still inside her body when she was found.
Speaker 8 (26:21):
You may have reasonable inferences for that. You may wonder
why did Victor Sosa do this? You may wonder what
came first? Did he slip her throat first, or did
he stab.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
Her in the head first. I can't answer those questions
for you.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
And what about the knife? Had Victor come to Daisy's
apartment that night carrying the nine inch knife found at
the scene, or did he happen to find it laying
around near the trash bins? Was it one of the
knives that Daisy's neighbor had reportedly thrown out. Had he
grabbed it in a fit of rage? These are questions
(27:06):
we may never know the answer to, and according to
Leslie's theory of the case, these answers don't change the
deliberateness of the murder. She argued, quote whether he chose
to bring the knife with him, or whether he saw
the knife and chose to pick it up, those are
conscious decisions. By the time he commits the act, he
(27:26):
has made his decision.
Speaker 7 (27:28):
In the end, I know that the only just result
that you can come to is that the defendant is
guilty of.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
The premeditated, deliberate, and local murder.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
Of Daisy dela Oh, and that the allegation that he's
personally used.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
The deadly weapon a knife, and the commission of the
crime is true. Thank you so true.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
In this train this time, pray yes, your.
Speaker 9 (28:14):
Gibarian ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Victor's public defender, A. J.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Bain.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
He made his closing argument. Next, he argued that the
DNA testing had been faulty and basically that the whole
case was circumstantial because nobody actually saw Daisy being stabbed.
He pointed to the surveillance footage. You know it didn't
actually show anyone's face.
Speaker 9 (28:38):
I get it. The theory is soulsa drag over by
the arms and that's where have his ruisin and asked
for this murder.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
Posit of curve can't see any faces one too the
time does a match up? Jeffrey t.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
He brought up the knife, which nobody proved had belonged
to Victor.
Speaker 9 (28:58):
Nobody from the show's department. I thought to show it
to my client's mother mis guitarists, to say, hey, look
are you missing the sign? You might if we look
at your knie to see if it masks any of
their knife, to see if if someone who took it.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
From your house no one showed it to miss the
Loewe's family say hey, you guys missing the knife. It's
just lazy. It's laziness.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
And then he mentioned that moment that Claudia had described
that moment when she had asked her son if he'd
done it, and he bowed his head in response as
to the mom.
Speaker 5 (29:31):
The mom was the mom.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
She's all over the place, she says, he looks down.
I asked your look at mom, right? Could you tell
whether or not it is because he couldn't believe an
asse that question, or whether or not it was some
type of yelt So it's how you interpret it. None
of us are there, None of us have that you know.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Ultimately, he argued, someone else must have killed Daisy.
Speaker 10 (29:55):
We know it's not so so because.
Speaker 9 (29:57):
There's no motive for Sosa, that's being her boyfriend for years.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
There's no evidence, said he.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
Raised to answer for say, any nage in her.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Even Jefferte Leslie had believed so firmly in the strength
of the DNA evidence that she had decided not to
argue a motive, not to present any of the allegations
of violence of physical abuse. She barely mentioned Victor and
Daisy's relationship at all. It was a decision that watching
(30:25):
it all play out in real time had really surprised me,
and as the judge read the twelve jurors their instructions,
I started to wonder if it was a decision that
could backfire.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
You shall now retire and select one of your number
to act as a four person He.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
Or she will preside over your deliberations in order to
reach abert.
Speaker 6 (30:47):
At all twelve jurors was to reach the decision into
any findings.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Has Everyone shuffled out of the courtroom, ending an exhausting
and deeply upsetting murder trial. I thought about Daisy, the
photo I'd seen of her on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook,
the stories I had heard about her from her friends
and family. I thought about the dms and the phone
calls from strangers all over North America, each of them
(31:13):
determined the catch her killer. I thought about the suffering,
the waiting, the longing, and about how all of it
had been leading to this moment. Now it was no
longer in Daisy's friend's hands. It wasn't up to the detectives,
and there was nothing more that Susie could do or
Leslie could say. Everything was in the jury's hands. That's
(31:37):
next time. A verdict has been reached against a man
accused of killing his ex girlfriend.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
The suspect was captured after.
Speaker 10 (31:44):
Videos on social media helped lead to his arrest in Mexico.
Hi everyone, this is Paris. Thanks for listening to My
Friend Daisy. If you are someone you love his experience abuse,
you are not alone. Help is available twenty four to seven.
(32:04):
Contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline for free confidential support.
Call eight hundred seven nine to nine seven two three three,
text start to eight eight seven eight eight, or visit
the hotline dot org your safety matters reach out today.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
My Friend Daisy is a production of London Audio with
support from Sony Music Entertainment. It's reported, written and executive
produced by me Jen Swan. I'm also your host. Our
executive producers for London Audio are Paris Hilton Bruce Gersh
Bruce Robertson and Joanna Studebaker. Our executive producer for Sony
(32:47):
Music Entertainment is Jonathan Hirsch. Our associate producer is Zoe Coulkin.
Production assistants and translations by Miguel Contreras, Sound design, composing
and mixed by Hans Dale she Our fact checker is
Fndel Fulton. Our head of production is Sammy Allison, and
(33:08):
our production manager is Tamika balance Calosny. Special thanks to
Steve Akerman, Emily Rossick and Jamie Myers at Sony, Ben
Goldberg and Orley Greenberg at UTA, and Jen Ortiz at
The Cut
This episode discusses intimate partner violence and sexual assault. Please
listen with care. On April twenty seventh, twenty twenty two,
Claudia Gutierrez took the stand at her son's murder trial.
She recounted how about a year and a half earlier,
(00:22):
Victor had gone missing. After he didn't come home one night,
she tried texting him. There was no reply. Then she
texted Daisy. She figured they were together again, no reply.
It wasn't totally unusual for him not to come home.
He sometimes slept on the streets or stayed in motels.
(00:43):
But after a couple nights passed and Claudia still hadn't
seen or heard from Victor, she started to become worried.
She went to her local police station and filed a
missing person's report. It was February twenty fifth, twenty twenty one,
just two days after Day had been found dead. A
couple of weeks went by no sign of Victor, and
(01:06):
then Claudia told the jury she got a phone call.
It was him. He wanted to talk and he needed money.
He gave his mother his location and she agreed to
meet him somewhere on the street. By that point, she
must have learned that Daisy had been murdered, because when
she met up with her son, she asked him point blank,
(01:28):
did you do it? Meaning did you kill Daisy? But
Victor didn't respond, at least not verbally. He just lowered
his head.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
For me, that is important as the prosecutor presenting evidence
because it's what we call an adoptive admission.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
That's Deputy District Attorney Leslie Hinshaw. She was the prosecutor
on this case, and to her, this moment, this moment
where Victor's mother described her son hanging his head, it
was a big deal.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Basically, the theory on an adoptive admission is that if
you didn't do it, you would say no, I didn't
do it. What are you talking about? But when you
don't say anything, you're basically accepting the truth of it
without saying yes, without agreeing.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
As the prosecutor, Leslie had anticipated this moment. She'd interviewed
Claudia before the trial started, and she'd questioned her on
the stand during the preliminary hearing about seven months before that,
and during that hearing, Claudia testified that she urged her
son to do the right thing, to turn himself into
the authorities. She said that he responded by telling her
(02:44):
that he was going to do it. He was going
to turn himself in. That was the last time she
saw him, but at trial, Claudia's recollection had become hazy.
When Leslie questioned her, she said she couldn't remember whether
Victor had told her that he turned himself in. I
don't remember if he said anything like that, she told
(03:06):
the court.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I remember being like, oh gosh, now I have to
impeach her, because I think I had to confront her
with some of her statements in the past. I don't
remember the specifics of it, but I do remember thinking
that she was minimizing either what Victor had said or
done or her interaction with him. That in it of itself,
(03:29):
it didn't surprise me that she did that because of
you know, obviously she's Victor's mother. Maybe I was being
a little naive and hoping that she would just.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Do what was right.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I mean, she didn't lie. I think she I think
getting up there and then seeing her son kind of
made her really upset. And I can't blame her for that,
and I don't blame her for that.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
There was another part of the story that Claudia a
little differently at trial. So previously she'd said that she
gave her some five hundred dollars a few days before
she met up with him a second time to ask
if he'd done it, But at trial she said she
thought maybe all of these things happened during one single interaction,
(04:18):
like maybe she'd asked him that question and he put
his head down and she didn't take that to be
any sort of admission of guilt, I mean, or maybe
the trauma really did just play tricks on her memory.
It's hard to unpack it either way. It was almost
like Claudia was unsure of herself, like she was questioning
reality itself, Like did all of these things really happen?
(04:41):
Maybe it was all just a bad dream? Was she
really about to help convict her own son. It was
a tough position to be in, and Leslie knew that.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
She was a witness of mine, and I have compassion
for the position that she is in in that I
am asking her to testify against her son, and that's
not an easy thing to do. To think about how
(05:13):
terrible that must feel. That she knows the truth of
her conversations with Victor and this is her son, and
she's being asked to be the bigger person, but to
tell on her son person that she birthed, and that's
a really, really tough thing to ask someone to do.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
The magnitude of this testimony was not lost on Susie.
She would send me these voice memos during the trial,
especially on days when I couldn't be there in person.
She'd recap some of the testimonies and tell me how
she felt about everything that day as she was driving
home or picking up dinner. And there was something that
she said to me in a voice memo on the
day that Claudia took.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
The stand her many mothers they had tested fight amains
their kids. That took a lot, honestly.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
A lot of strength, I think is what she meant.
And in a way, Susie saw how she and Claudia
both had a lot in common.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
You know, Jenner, for this time, it was I guess
this is the first time I actually feel for her,
because I don't know. It was very tough to see
her actually facing her son and child with the jury
with us. It was hard to see. It was hard
to see, like you know, both of us lost our kids.
(06:35):
I lost my kids to her kids for murder, you know,
and it's horrible, but you know, it's more horrible to
think your kids caught all the pain, you know, something
I can't even imagine. So I honestly feel for her.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
I do feel for her.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I am Jen Swan from London Audio iHeart Radio and
executive producer Parison. This is My Friend Daisy, Episode eight,
Cycle of Violence. I spoke with Leslie at the Hall
(07:18):
of Justice in downtown Los Angeles. It's this big granite
building from the nineteen twenties. It sandwiched between the courthouses
and City Hall. Leslie was transferred here from the Compton
Die's office that's where she worked back when she was
assigned the case known as the State of California versus
Victor Sosa. We sat in a small meeting room. It
(07:40):
had these kid friendly illustrations on the wall and stuffed
animals on the couch. Leslie works on cases related to
domestic violence and sex crimes, and it occurred to me
that this room that we were sitting in it was
meant to make children feel comfortable talking about deeply uncomfortable subjects.
It made me wan under how Leslie found herself in
(08:02):
this line of work. Can you tell me how you
got into this, Like have you always wanted to be
a prosecutor and how did you end up.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
In sex crimes?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So I know, I went to law school because I
actually wanted to work in sports. I was a sport
managed major in college and I wanted to be a
general manager of a Major League baseball team.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
That obviously did not happen because somewhere along the way,
Leslie ended up taking a class on criminal procedure. She
decided she wanted to become a public defender. Well that
didn't exactly pan out either.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
The Public Defender's office didn't have any externships open, but
the DA's office did, and I was like, well, I've
never had any criminal experience, so I'll go and try
it out. And I loved it. It was I think
it helped that I was watching the wire at the
same time, and so what I was doing was it
(08:59):
kind of mirrored what was going on in the wire
that I was watching, and I was like, this is insane,
this is amazing.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Leslie's been prosecuting sex crimes and domestic violence cases for
about six years now. She said she doesn't know exactly
why she gravitated towards it, but she thinks it has
something to do with wanting to help vulnerable people, women, children,
people who don't always feel comfortable or safe identifying as victims,
(09:27):
people like Daisy. I know that Susannah was trying to
report I think it was the skateboard incident at one point,
and she says that she was told that she couldn't
report it because Daisy wouldn't disclose it. Like, I'm just
curious if that's something you've encountered where someone has tried
to report it and they've been told they can't report
it because they're a minor.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So I don't really know what happened in that, Like
I don't, Yeah, I don't really know what happened specifically
with why the deputies told her what they did, But
generally speaking, if a victim is an adult and they
don't want to disclose, then there's really nothing police can do.
(10:09):
Right as a child, I would think it's different. I
would think personally that a parent or guardian could bring
their child to the police station and say, this happened
to my kid. I want you to take a report,
as the police officer, even if the child doesn't want
(10:29):
to say anything. I would at least take I would think,
I mean, I would want them to at least take
a report and then notify DCFS Department of Child and
Family Services so that there can be some involvement in
figuring out what's going on.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
But to your knowledge, there wasn't reports of domestic violence
at all in this case.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
To my knowledge, there were no actual police reports of
domestic violence related to Victor and Daisy.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Daisy was a minor, and this system, which was supposed
to protect her it failed. It's hard not to think
about what might have gone differently, or if anything would
have gone differently, if a report had been taken, if
just one mandated reporter, like a nurse or a social
worker had intervened, at the very least, a report almost
(11:24):
certainly would have been introduced as evidence during the trial,
evidence that could have helped to establish a motive. But
because no such evidence existed, and because Leslie felt that
the DNA evidence was strong enough on its own, she
never told the jury about the domestic violence in Victor
and Daisy's relationship. She said she didn't realize until after
(11:47):
she prepared the case that there had been a first
hand witness to at least one of these assaults, someone
who might have been able to testify Daisy's little brother.
And I want to just quickly note that I'm here
talking to a prosecutor, someone tasked with working with police
to enforce the law and punish those who break it.
(12:07):
But there are plenty of reasons why a person experiencing
intimate partner violence may not want to involve the legal
or criminal justice system at all. I mean, for one thing,
they might fear retaliation from their abuser, it could escalate
the violence. And if there's children or a shared household involved,
one partner being sent to jail could result in a
(12:29):
loss of income or a loss of childcare. This is
all to say that victims have a lot to weigh
when it comes to deciding whether to disclose their abuse
to authorities. There are plenty of reasons for them to
lose faith in the legal system, and in Leslie's experience,
that's not uncommon.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
With domestic violence cases. Even if there's an initial disclosure,
you find that a lot of times there is a
recantation where the victim will tell us that they were
making up what they initially said, or they lied about it.
You know a lot of their hesitation or the recantation,
the reporting, and then you know saying they don't want
(13:10):
to be a part of it has to do with
the cycle of violence that they go through. Domestic violence
is very there's a very specific, very much studied cycle
of violence that happens with domestic violence victims.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And this cycle can be really hard to break.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
The way it works is when a person has finally
almost like had enough, They're like, I'm done, I'm done.
I can't do this anymore. This person has hurt me enough,
like I'm done. That's usually when they report. But then
the person will come back and say, I'm really sorry.
I promise it won't happen again. That was terrible of
(13:51):
me to do. I should have never done that. They
may buy them gifts, they may to take them out,
and then the victor is like, maybe this time this
person actually will change. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is different,
this is different this time, and then you start the
cycle all over again, and it can be very frustrating
(14:12):
for people on the outside to look in and see
so clearly, yet the person that you love can't see
it at all. You really can't force someone to get
out of a domestic violence relationship, because unless that person
has a self awareness to say I can't do this anymore,
you may take the person out for a little bit,
(14:33):
but they're either going to go back to the person
or they're to enter into another relationship that is just
as bad.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
There were people in Daisy's life who tried to take
her out of the relationship with Victor, who tried to
break the cycle. And it wasn't just her own mother,
it was also Victor's. I discovered this while reading a
transcript of a conversation that happened early on in the trial.
The conversation was on the record, and it was between
(15:09):
Leslie Henshaw, the prosecutor aj Bain, who was Victor's public defender,
and the judge Sean Cohen. The jurors had been dismissed
for lunch, and Leslie was telling the judge about something
she was considering submitting as evidence, which was that when
she interviewed Claudia several months earlier, Claudia said that there
were times when she would hear Victor and Daisy arguing,
(15:32):
times when she saw bruises on Daisy. Claudia told Leslie
that this was the reason She did not allow Daisy
into her house. She wanted to prevent her son from
being alone with her. I had known that Daisy's mother
had banned Victor from her home, but I did not
know that Claudia had banned Daisy from hers. Here were
these two mothers who, as far as I could tell,
(15:54):
had never met each other. They lived in different cities,
They lived totally different lives, but in their own way,
unbeknownst to each other, they were both trying to protect Daisy.
There was something else I learned in these trial transcripts
that Claudia had told Leslie, which was that at one
(16:14):
point she drove Daisy home, and as the two of
them sat in the car together, Claudia told Daisy about
her own experience with domestic violence. She urged Daisy to
get out of the relationship. She also told Daisy to
get a restraining order against her son. Here was a
mother telling her son's girlfriend, pleading with her behind his
(16:39):
back to leave him, and not just to leave him,
but to take legal action against him. The situation was
that serious. Claudia sensed this, and she had tried to intervene.
I remember reading about this in the transcript and just
feeling stunned. It contured to did this image of Claudia
(17:02):
that had emerged during the trial, which was a mother
trying to protect her son, agreeing to testify against him,
but then changing her story on the stand, omitting or
minimizing certain details. Her testimony raised questions about whether she
had known about the murder before she gave Victor the money,
whether she had helped him flee the country, and whether
(17:24):
she really believed that her son had gone missing when
she filed that missing person's report with the police. Claudia's
relationship with her son and with Daisy was obviously more nuanced,
more complicated, and almost certainly more difficult than what was
conveyed at trial. I wanted to try to understand more
about it, to hear from Claudia outside of court, so
(17:48):
I wrote her a letter. I told her that I
was doing this project and that it was important to
me to get her perspective. I told her that Daisy's story,
it seemed to me, was also a story about multiple
generations of women, mothers, daughters, women whose lives had been
affected by various cycles of violence. I never got a response,
(18:12):
and I wasn't even sure if she'd gotten the letter,
so I decided to drive to her house one night.
I was hoping to speak with her in person, introduce
myself at least. I knocked on the door and she answered,
and when I identified myself, her face just dropped, her
eyes started welling up. She didn't slam the door in
(18:33):
my face. She didn't seem to be angry. She just
seemed sad. She allowed me to stand there, uncomfortably awkwardly
on her doorstep and ask for an interview. And she
listened to me, but she shook her head. No, I can't,
she said, I can't. It struck me just how painful
this must have been for her on a number of levels.
(18:56):
I mean, her son had committed a murder, and the
person he killed was the person she had been trying
to protect. The day after Victor's mother took the stand,
Leslie gave her closing argument. It was the last day
(19:18):
of a nearly two week long trial, and it was
her last chance to convince the jury that Victor was
guilty of deliberate, premeditated first degree murder. Leslie started by
recounting the last night of Daisy's life, how she and
her family had been watching television in their living room,
how her grandfather had seen a masked man in the window.
(19:41):
How Daisy kissed her mother and her grandmother goodbye and
said she'd be right back. How everyone went to sleep
and Daisy didn't come back. And then Leslie started recapping
the evidence. She talked about how the surveillance footage showed
a person dragging something near the area where Daisy's body
(20:01):
was found, how this figure appeared to have shoulder length
black hair, the same as Victor at the time, according
to testimonies from his mother and Daisy's grandfather and Daisy's
neighbor Jeffrey. And then there was the adoptive admission, when
Victor seemed to confess to his mother by simply lowering
his head when she asked if he had done it.
(20:23):
Leslie reminded the jury that after Daisy's murder, Victor fled
the country and changed his appearance. This is because of
what she called his consciousness of guilt, The same consciousness
of guilt, she argued, that led to him covering Daisy's body,
hiding what he had done with a rug, the rug
(20:44):
that had bloodstains on it, bloodstains that presented a DNA
match with Victor, just like the bloodstains on the knife
found next to Daisy's body. Leslie pointed out that there's
a kind of intimacy that using a knife on a
human body choirs a literal physical closeness to another person.
(21:06):
And the words that she used, the motions she made
with her hands when she described just how many times
Victor stabbed Daisy, they were haunting. They still haunt me.
They are lodged deep into my brain to this day.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
You slabor broke.
Speaker 6 (21:26):
And not only did he do that, but he also
stab her rightful avidity eighty times.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
And once was it twice? It was eight times?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Maybe you heard me exhale after Leslie said that it
was an exhalation of dread. And it wasn't the first
time that I had heard this information. The medical examiner
had talked about it at length on the stand just
a day earlier. There were fifty eight stab wounds on
the right side of Daisy's skull. Fifty eight. It was
(22:07):
hard to even fathom that number, that repetition of violence
every single time I heard it, which is why in
this recording you might hear me literally squirming in my seat,
especially when Leslie started clapping her hands and counting.
Speaker 6 (22:24):
Wow, three, three, four, six, seven, eight, not sent eleven.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Leslie kept counting. She said every single number leading up
to fifty eight, every number representing a separate stab wound two.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
Five or six or seven or eight or not or
what for two? Or three? For four or five or
six or seven? For eight or nine? Fifty one?
Speaker 6 (22:54):
It's two, it's three, it's four, it's five, six, seven, eight, fifty.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
Fifty eight times.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Susie and her cousin were sitting in the row ahead
of me. You can hear them sniffling in this recording.
They were passing tissues to each other.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Now, I suspect the defense would come up here and say, well,
they were just superficial wounds.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
When we did hear the corner say that, But he
also said that this portion of.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
Someone's skull is one of the.
Speaker 6 (23:26):
Hardest areas to cut through, and when he does autopsies
on this portion of a person's skull, he will use
a saw.
Speaker 7 (23:37):
So you don't use a knife at someone's head.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Because and cause injuries, because you want to lait at
that or mess with that.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
You injure someone's head.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
Because it is an incredibly important part of our anatomy,
and because.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
You want to kill them. This injury is not one.
Speaker 6 (24:17):
Where someone doesn't intend to kill them.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
It is gruesome, it is horrific.
Speaker 6 (24:25):
It is a cold and callous act to cause that
injury to someone, and these.
Speaker 5 (24:34):
Injuries to a person's head is a continued, cold and
calculated act.
Speaker 6 (24:44):
The defendant committed a first degree murder when he murdered
Daisy Delttle.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
He intended to kill her. He did it with a premeditation,
a lit and of globleness.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
And then before closing, Leslie acknowledged all the stuff we
didn't know, the lingering questions the jury might still have
about things, she said, we might be able to make
inferences about, but could not definitively prove about things like
sexual assault. And I should warn you. Leslie's speech here
is graphic. It's about ninety seconds long. If you want
(25:28):
to just gip ahead.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
Now.
Speaker 7 (25:31):
There was some testimony and evidence that I submit to you.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
I cannot explain to you. You may have reasonable inferences
for what it means. Daisy was found faced down with
her pants.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
Pulled down.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
Below her butttops and her sweatshirt lifted above her back.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
You may have reasonable inferences for the defendants.
Speaker 8 (26:02):
Epithelial DNA was found on her external genital area as
well as her anal opening.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
You may have reasonable inferences for that.
Speaker 6 (26:13):
The defendant sperm DNA was found on her tampon that
was still inside her body when she was found.
Speaker 8 (26:21):
You may have reasonable inferences for that. You may wonder
why did Victor Sosa do this? You may wonder what
came first? Did he slip her throat first, or did
he stab.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
Her in the head first. I can't answer those questions
for you.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
And what about the knife? Had Victor come to Daisy's
apartment that night carrying the nine inch knife found at
the scene, or did he happen to find it laying
around near the trash bins? Was it one of the
knives that Daisy's neighbor had reportedly thrown out. Had he
grabbed it in a fit of rage? These are questions
(27:06):
we may never know the answer to, and according to
Leslie's theory of the case, these answers don't change the
deliberateness of the murder. She argued, quote whether he chose
to bring the knife with him, or whether he saw
the knife and chose to pick it up, those are
conscious decisions. By the time he commits the act, he
(27:26):
has made his decision.
Speaker 7 (27:28):
In the end, I know that the only just result
that you can come to is that the defendant is
guilty of.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
The premeditated, deliberate, and local murder.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
Of Daisy dela Oh, and that the allegation that he's
personally used.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
The deadly weapon a knife, and the commission of the
crime is true. Thank you so true.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
In this train this time, pray yes, your.
Speaker 9 (28:14):
Gibarian ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Victor's public defender, A. J.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Bain.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
He made his closing argument. Next, he argued that the
DNA testing had been faulty and basically that the whole
case was circumstantial because nobody actually saw Daisy being stabbed.
He pointed to the surveillance footage. You know it didn't
actually show anyone's face.
Speaker 9 (28:38):
I get it. The theory is soulsa drag over by
the arms and that's where have his ruisin and asked
for this murder.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
Posit of curve can't see any faces one too the
time does a match up? Jeffrey t.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
He brought up the knife, which nobody proved had belonged
to Victor.
Speaker 9 (28:58):
Nobody from the show's department. I thought to show it
to my client's mother mis guitarists, to say, hey, look
are you missing the sign? You might if we look
at your knie to see if it masks any of
their knife, to see if if someone who took it.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
From your house no one showed it to miss the
Loewe's family say hey, you guys missing the knife. It's
just lazy. It's laziness.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
And then he mentioned that moment that Claudia had described
that moment when she had asked her son if he'd
done it, and he bowed his head in response as
to the mom.
Speaker 5 (29:31):
The mom was the mom.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
She's all over the place, she says, he looks down.
I asked your look at mom, right? Could you tell
whether or not it is because he couldn't believe an
asse that question, or whether or not it was some
type of yelt So it's how you interpret it. None
of us are there, None of us have that you know.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Ultimately, he argued, someone else must have killed Daisy.
Speaker 10 (29:55):
We know it's not so so because.
Speaker 9 (29:57):
There's no motive for Sosa, that's being her boyfriend for years.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
There's no evidence, said he.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
Raised to answer for say, any nage in her.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Even Jefferte Leslie had believed so firmly in the strength
of the DNA evidence that she had decided not to
argue a motive, not to present any of the allegations
of violence of physical abuse. She barely mentioned Victor and
Daisy's relationship at all. It was a decision that watching
(30:25):
it all play out in real time had really surprised me,
and as the judge read the twelve jurors their instructions,
I started to wonder if it was a decision that
could backfire.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
You shall now retire and select one of your number
to act as a four person He.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
Or she will preside over your deliberations in order to
reach abert.
Speaker 6 (30:47):
At all twelve jurors was to reach the decision into
any findings.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Has Everyone shuffled out of the courtroom, ending an exhausting
and deeply upsetting murder trial. I thought about Daisy, the
photo I'd seen of her on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook,
the stories I had heard about her from her friends
and family. I thought about the dms and the phone
calls from strangers all over North America, each of them
(31:13):
determined the catch her killer. I thought about the suffering,
the waiting, the longing, and about how all of it
had been leading to this moment. Now it was no
longer in Daisy's friend's hands. It wasn't up to the detectives,
and there was nothing more that Susie could do or
Leslie could say. Everything was in the jury's hands. That's
(31:37):
next time. A verdict has been reached against a man
accused of killing his ex girlfriend.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
The suspect was captured after.
Speaker 10 (31:44):
Videos on social media helped lead to his arrest in Mexico.
Hi everyone, this is Paris. Thanks for listening to My
Friend Daisy. If you are someone you love his experience abuse,
you are not alone. Help is available twenty four to seven.
(32:04):
Contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline for free confidential support.
Call eight hundred seven nine to nine seven two three three,
text start to eight eight seven eight eight, or visit
the hotline dot org your safety matters reach out today.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
My Friend Daisy is a production of London Audio with
support from Sony Music Entertainment. It's reported, written and executive
produced by me Jen Swan. I'm also your host. Our
executive producers for London Audio are Paris Hilton Bruce Gersh
Bruce Robertson and Joanna Studebaker. Our executive producer for Sony
(32:47):
Music Entertainment is Jonathan Hirsch. Our associate producer is Zoe Coulkin.
Production assistants and translations by Miguel Contreras, Sound design, composing
and mixed by Hans Dale she Our fact checker is
Fndel Fulton. Our head of production is Sammy Allison, and
(33:08):
our production manager is Tamika balance Calosny. Special thanks to
Steve Akerman, Emily Rossick and Jamie Myers at Sony, Ben
Goldberg and Orley Greenberg at UTA, and Jen Ortiz at
The Cut
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