June 3, 2025 • 34 mins
To kick off Pride Month, My Legacy revisits one of our most powerful conversations with Emmy, Grammy, and Tony Award-winning artist Billy Porter.
In this special “best of” episode – hosted by Martin Luther King III, Arndrea Waters King, Marc Kielburger and Craig Kielburger – Billy is joined by his beloved sister and lifelong best friend, Mary Martha Ford, whose unconditional love helped shape his extraordinary journey.
Together, Billy and Mary Martha open up about family, identity, and the power of living authentically – no matter the cost. Their story is a celebration of resilience, chosen family, and the transformative role of love and art in healing generational wounds.
You’ll learn:
- What it takes to choose yourself in a world that tells you not to
- How unconditional love can break generational cycles
- The role of art in surviving – and healing from – trauma
- Why authenticity isn’t just brave; it’s necessary
If you want to hear the full conversation, head to the My Legacy playlist. And stay tuned – we’ll be sharing more highlights from our favorite episodes every Tuesday through the end of July.
Creator and Executive Producer: Suzanne Hayward
Co-Executive Producer: Lisa Lisle
Editor Duane Fogwell
Post-production producer Tina Pittaway
A/V by Garcia Creative
Produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and Executive Producer Gabrielle Collins.
Like our podcast? Visit http://youtube.com/@mylegacymovement to see full episodes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
We're ten years apart, and she's been my best friend
since she was a baby. I was queer very early
in our community. That came with a lot of pushback
from our community. You know, when it was time to
make the unconditional love choice. She and my mother both
(00:27):
made that choice in the faith of an entire community
and infrastructure, telling them both that they were going to burn.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
In hell for doing so.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
That was the incomparable Billy Porter And to kick off
Pride Month today, we are sharing a special best of
episode with the Emmy, Grammy and Tony Award winning artist
on the My Legacy podcast. Joining him is his beloved
sister and best friend, Mary Martha Ford, whose unconditional love
has helped shape his remarkable journey. Hosted by Martin Luther
(01:00):
King the Third and his wife Andrea Waters King, and
their friends Mark and Craig Kilberger, this episode is a
powerful reminder of what it means to live your truth,
no matter the cost. Together, Billy and Mary Martha teach
us what it takes to choose yourself in a world
that tells you not to, how unconditional love can break
generational cycles, the role of art in healing trauma, and
(01:25):
why authenticity isn't just brave, it's necessary. This is one
of our most moving episodes and a celebration of the
courage it takes to live out loud.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Let's jump in, well, welcome to my legacy. We're here
with Billy Porter. Billy, you are on the brink of
egot status, an elite group of artists who have won
the Emmy, the Grammy, the Oscar and the Tony. His
extraordinary life story is one of courage, resilience, and authenticity,
(01:55):
and we hope it will inspire you to create a
living legacy and lead a more fulfilled life. On this podcast,
we don't just hear from iconic figures. We also connect
with the people who know them best to give us
deeper understanding of the challenges and the triumphs that have
shaped their legacy. Joining Billy today is his sister, Mary
Martha Ford, whose love and support have been central to
(02:17):
his remarkable journey. Billy and Mary Martha, what a privilege
it is to be with you, and thank you for
being here. And so, Billy, we got to start off
by asking you to introduce Mary Martha and sharing what
makes her such an important person in your life.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Okay, well, Mary Martha Elizabeth Ford is my baby sister.
We're ten years apart, and she's been my best friend
since she was a baby. It's like I couldn't wait
till she was old enough so we could like hang out.
I was like, get your childhood all over with please,
(02:56):
so we can hang out. You know, I call her
the rock star because you know, she turned she has
turned a very complicated life into something great for herself
(03:18):
and everyone around her.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
And I'm just, you know, honored to call her my
rock star sister.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Oh the sweet thank you, it's beautiful. I love that
I'm here with my brother.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
I just I've got goosebumps or as you would say,
god bumps listening to that one. I love it, Billy.
So we're talking about legacy, and can you take us
way back to Pittsburgh. Can you tell us a little
bit about your childhood and maybe share a story that
really helps to shine a light on what life was
like for you growing up in your younger years.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
It was tough, you know, it was traumatizing very often,
and there was a lot of love.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
As well.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
And I had a lot of angels in my life
who were encamped around me who saw me in ways
that sometimes my immediate family, my immediate sort of community.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Didn't understand.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And these people were able to just kind of guide
me in the right directions so that I could dream
and accomplish beyond my circumstance. You know, A music teacher
(04:51):
identified that I could think. And from that point on,
you know, in the fifth grade, and from that point on,
the angels in my life stepped in and made sure
that I, you know, that I was able to, like
(05:13):
I said, dream and accomplish beyond my circumstance.
Speaker 6 (05:18):
Mary Martha, I've got a question for you, yes, being
ten years younger, what was your down dynamic like when Billy,
you know, kind of growing up and how has it evolved?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
How is it evolved?
Speaker 7 (05:32):
So I don't remember him until my first memory was
maybe when we were five, five or six and it
was Christmas morning. That's one of my first memories, Christmas
morning and him waking me up and taking me like
I rode his back into the living room and there
(05:53):
were gifts and there were gifts that he bought me
with his own money because he had a job where
he yet kenny Wood which because Kennywood Park, which was
our amusement Park. I just remember Billy being kind and
my friend, someone that I looked up to, and he
(06:13):
was always singing, and so we were always everywhere where
he was singing and performing.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
My mom and I would be there all of the time.
Speaker 7 (06:24):
I should have been at home on a school night,
but I was in the theater wherever he was. That's
where we were, and so that's how I ended up
catching the theater bug as well. How has it evolved?
It has evolved from being I don't know, just brother
(06:45):
and sister to best friends, and so I can call
him about anything. We talk every morning, you know, there's
you know, just to check in how you doing. I'm
doing all right, what you're doing today? And I'm very
grateful for that. I recognize that the relationship as siblings
that he and I have is not one that lots
of people can say that they have with their siblings,
(07:06):
and so it's something that I used to take for granted,
which I don't take for granted anymore because now I
recognize how true and precious it is.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
What's so fascinating to me about that story, though, is
I can just imagine, see if you were in fifth
grade and then Billy is about ten years older than you.
Like you all said a little bit earlier that there's
a lot of trauma kind of growing up. But here, this,
to me, says it all about your heart, about the
(07:39):
fact of being an entertainer. You worked, just make sure
I heard the story correctly, and then make sure that
your sister had a good Christmas, your baby's sister. It's
almost like that, you know that protection. But not only that,
it seemed like there was so much joy. You got
as much joy that Christmas morning. I just thought that
(08:02):
that's such a beauty. I actually almost bought tears in
my eyes just I can kind of see you all,
you know, going through that, and I think it's so extraordinary,
and I'm so I'm also curious, then, Billy, how has
your sister been a source of strength for you throughout
your lives growing up?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Don't cry she.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
You know, she was younger than me and I was
queer very early in our community. That came with a
lot of pushback.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
From our.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Community and our family, and you know, when it was
time to make the unconditional love choice, she and my
mother both made that choice in the faith of an
(09:10):
entire community and infrastructure telling them both that they were
going to burn in hell for doing so. Mary Martha
was the first, you know, person that I came out
to in my family, even before you know, when she
(09:33):
was sixteen, Yeah, before my mother. Well no, I told
my mother, but my mother wasn't able to receive it
for a while. So my sister was was able to
receive it at such a young age, and she was
so present in the moment for me and so evolved,
(09:57):
you know, And it was something that I had worked
on trying to give her, you know, trying to actually.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Be the same kind of angel.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
For her that I had experienced for myself, to show
her that there were spaces outside of our immediate infrastructure.
There were people outside of.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Our status quo.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And experiences outside of that.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That were just as important.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
And more important than the religious dogma that.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
You know, was trying to sort of be ingrained at us.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
There were other options, and I was sort of trying
to show her those other options. And I didn't realize
that they had taken hold until I came out to
her at sixteen.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
They had already taken hold. All of those things that.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I was trying to instill, had already taken hold and
it was you know, it was magical, It was emotional,
and it was gratifying and spiritual and all those things you.
Speaker 5 (11:26):
Know when you've heard something and it stays with you.
If you're still thinking about this conversation, don't keep it
to yourself. Subscribe to my Legacy podcast, share it with
someone who's navigating something hard, or just a way to say.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
I see you.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Now.
Speaker 8 (11:48):
Back to my Legacy will Billy and Mary Martha. We
admire your tenacity, your love, your compassion towards each other.
I also want to turn to your amazing career, Billy.
Your career has been a masterclass breaking barriers and living authentically.
What drives you to keep using your voice to create
such substantive change as you do.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Artists have the power to reach inside of a human
being and transform them from the inside out. Art has
the power to heal all kinds of traumas. My soul
(12:33):
was saved because.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Of the art.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
If I didn't have the arts, I don't think I
would be alive right now.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Maybe, And I know.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
That when I'm at my lowest, for as long as
I can remember, it's my art that gets me out of.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Bed in the morning, and there was also growing up.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
No representation, really, no mainstream crossover rotator representation of somebody.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Who looked like me, who stood at that intersection of blackness,
queerness and spirituality, and the ones who did were ignored, dismissed,
(13:39):
passed over, erased. And so I know how I know
what it felt like to be invisible for over half
my life. And the only reason why I'm not invisible
is because I chose myself. I chose my authenticity.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I to have the audacity to actually choose myself, choose
my authenticity and then stand on that.
Speaker 5 (14:09):
Did you do that deliberately or do you think that
choice was made for you?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
No?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
No, Because for the first part of my life and
my career, I was trying to fit in so I
could eat. I wasn't lying, you know, but it was
the don't ask, don't tell era of the world, and
so I wasn't telling. I wasn't lying, but I wasn't telling,
(14:38):
and the omission of not telling is ultimately a lie,
and that binds you as well, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
And so I had the gift of failing.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
At somebody else, and particularly in the music industry in
the nineties, and I just vow to myself that I
would never show up as somebody else again, and whatever
that meant for my life and career is whatever it means.
(15:21):
And I still say that today. You know, I grew
up in a family who believed you got to stand
for something or you'll fall for anything. So even right now,
you know with how you look at me, with how
you see me, which I think is so humbling and
so inspiring and exactly my point right to exist inside
(15:46):
of the truth and to have the audacity to be
authentic and to speak truth always, no matter how uncomfortable
it may be to some of the people around you.
Sometimes is great, and sometimes it's that so great, you know,
(16:08):
sometimes there are consequences that come with that, as you know.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
So I'm grateful that my work.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And my efforts and my intentions are being seen and
experienced once again in the spirit in which I am
sharing them.
Speaker 8 (16:38):
Billy, We're all so glad that you've chosen that authenticity,
and I just want to say thank you for your eloquence.
Mary Martin went to want to ask you a quick
question about a moment that Billy's love and support made
a difference in your life.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Oh, his love.
Speaker 7 (16:57):
What people don't know is just how kind, like really
genuinely kind Billy is. And about fourteen years ago, I
had a medical scare where I had to have brain
surgery and I was going to be down for the
count for at least six weeks and Billy was working
on a show in New York and the show ended
(17:21):
on a Sunday. He got in the car on Monday,
drove home to Pittsburgh. I had surgery on a Tuesday.
And then he stayed with me for six weeks and
he took excellent care of me. So he's a great caregiver.
He's a good chef too. People don't know that he liked.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
That's the thing that I would say.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
You know, Covid Lockdown really showed me.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
That cooking is something that soothes me, okay, and something
that's really healing to me.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And it's a love language for me.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
You know, I'm not like a big gift giver and
I'm not like I'm not like that, but I love
to show love through cooking. And if I cook for you,
I love you.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
I don't cook for I don't generally cook for people
who I don't like or care about.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
Do you have a specialty he just likes to cook
just anything, huh, anything anything, And he can take anything
that you know, remnants to stuff that's in the refrigerator
and he'll come up with something and it bangs. That's
how I know, Mary Martha, that's a good cook. That's
always my my test. I can, like, I can follow
a great recipe, you know, or something that's been passed down,
(18:48):
and I think I'm a.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Pretty good cook.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yes you are.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
My sisters, they go into me a true like like
they can go into the refrigerator and then they can
and see what's there and then make a recipe and
then make it taste good. That That always is my
benchmark for Yeah, I see there you go and okay,
then you use that that passes That passed the test.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
We'd love it if you shared this episode of the
My Legacy podcast with someone you admire, someone who shows up,
who cares deeply, who lives their legacy every day. We'll
be back in a moment.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Now, back to My Legacy.
Speaker 6 (19:33):
Reilly, which which of your projects has had the greatest
impact on your personal growth and perspective as an artist.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
There's not one, but I will say there's a trilogy.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
The first is Tony Kushner's Angels in America, which do
you know that.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
Piece of course, mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
So that was the first time.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
You know, Jeffrey Wright was the original belize in that
back in ninety four, and I went to see that
on Broadway by myself, and that was a transformative moment
because I didn't understand what I was missing, you know,
speaking of representation again, you know, I didn't know that
I was missing seeing a black queer character who was
(20:24):
not the butt of the joke, who was not the
one to be reviled or murdered, but who was the
moral depth and heart of this piece that was very
(20:45):
dark and very heavy and very political, and you know,
with a bunch of white people swirling around him, he
was the one that held it all together emotionally and spiritually.
And so that changed everything because up in so then
my trajectory was not what I wanted it to be.
(21:05):
And then Kinky Boots, which was the original dream coming true,
you know, the creation of an iconic character in the canon.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Of the Broadway musical that was me, that was developed.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
And written around my skill set that I won the
Tony and Grammy for.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
That was you know, and inside of that.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
You know, my character, who's a drag queen, drag artist,
you know, has a very not great relationship with his father,
and he actively forgives him in the story. And my
relationship with both of my fathers was tenuous at best,
(22:00):
and I had a lot of forgiving to do. And
so the act of forgiving, even a fictional character eight
shows a week for three years, is powerful because our
bodies actually don't know the difference. That's the hard part
(22:20):
about being an actor and a performer. Our bodies don't
know the difference when we're faking it, but our bodies,
in our nervous system still thinks it's the same, and
we have to do the work to sort of untangle
that emotionally and spiritually for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
The third piece is pose.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Because the character of Pray tell the community that it's
dealing with the timeframe that it exists in.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
All of those things.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Are part of what it feels like as an artist
to be in the center of your purpose, calling and ministry.
Those three pieces were a culmination of really really hard
and focused work and choices that I had made for
(23:15):
two decades, you know, to get there.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
You know, I walked away from the status quo.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
I took the road less traveled because I knew that
if I was going to continue down the trajectory that
I was on, I would.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Never be happy.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
And it's so interesting because with that comes a lot
of I mean there, you know, there's a reason why
the road less traveled can be lonely sometime. So you know,
from the end, it seems like, oh, this is, you know,
such a it's a lot of celebrations, but what people
don't really see and understand is all the sacrifices. I
think that goals into that not only when you're doing it,
(23:59):
but I'm sure you know even now. And one of
the things that I've been so curious about is that
you've been a shining beacon for so many young people
struggling right to embrace who they are. But being one
of the first black queer men to live, I mean
just so boldly and particularly in the spotlight, I know
(24:22):
it comes with intense pressure. All we know about the
pressure that people don't see. Can you can you just
share an experience or what that has been like for you.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I want to tell the truth, yep.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
And I've been trying to find ways to tell my
truth with an eye towards the compassionate and the positive.
You know, the most difficult thing for me is being
put out by your own You know, I'm already black,
(25:00):
I'm a man, I'm black first. But for some reason,
inside of this queer conversation, this queerness conversation, in this
intersection with the black community, it.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Says, if queerness.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Doesn't exist, it is a very we have a very
homophobic community, and we've grown, and I want to say
that too, we've grown. There has been movement, and I'm
grateful for that because I've seen it, because I'm inside
of it, so I've seen it and.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I am grateful for that.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
But I find that that is the hardest thing for
me on a consistent basis, even with the growth, I'm
hit in the face with it at times when I've
let my guard down. Nobody's perfect, nobody does everything right.
(26:08):
You know, we're not going to agree with everybody on everything.
But for me, I've been in this long enough to
know what the motivation is for real, and the motivation
is that I am a black faggot.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And I use the word on purpose.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Because that's how violent these responses are to me simply
being myself. Right, I'm in a sparkly caftan on the
front row. I'm embarrassing to the black community, not everybody.
Let me be clear, how dare I have the audacity
(26:57):
to be on the front row, out loud, proud in address.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
How dare I?
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Is it more anger or hurt? I don't know, No
for you, like when you yes for you, because yeah, yeah,
it's both.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
It's all of the above, you know, because I'm out
here trying to help everybody.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I'm black first, y'all.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Whether y'all want to acknowledge that or not, people see
me as black first babies, you know, even with the
queer community. I've had to start going to things and
being like, y'all know, I'm black first, though, right, I
stand at this intersection, but I'm black first, and clearly.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I have to remind you all of that. So I'm
gonna start.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
Reminding y'all, well, Mary Martha is a black woman, because
that's you know, we talk about that a lot, you know,
you know, being black and being a woman and kind
of all that that that that that brings. Yes, yeah,
all of it.
Speaker 7 (28:00):
I'm black first, woman second, and people, but people put
it together black woman and that that has its own,
its own.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Context.
Speaker 7 (28:12):
For some people, it's not. It's not separate. But I'm
at a lot of intersections myself.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Mary Martha, Can I ask you a question? And I
asked this gingerly and let me acknowledge the fact that
I'm not black, and so I asked this seeking to
listen and learn. You have witnessed your brother go through
challenges but also be a hero for so many in
black community, but just in the community large. When when
you look at him, you have seen him at the
(28:42):
most challenged points of his life, and you've seen in
the most extraordinary points of his life. What are you
most proud of? As his sister who knows him on
an intimate and a personal level in a way that
we never will. But you have seen the struggles, and
you've seen the triumphs.
Speaker 7 (28:58):
Yes, well, the high the highs, and this business can
be high and the lows can be really low. And
what I'm most proud of is how he continues to
get up every day and to show up.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
For his life.
Speaker 7 (29:12):
That's what I'm most proud of because that is something
that I strive for. I can look to him and
I say, he gets up every day and he is
showing up for his life. I too can get up
every day and show up for my life. It doesn't
matter what people say, even though you know you're human
(29:37):
and so yes, sometimes the things that people that people
may say or miscategorize you as of course, that's going
to bother you. But he keeps getting up and moving
through it. And that's what's very inspiring.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Did that kind of help you when you were talking
about having brain surgery? And oh yeah, like it was
that also something that helped you.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Get in through that?
Speaker 7 (30:03):
Absolutely absolutely. And that and our mother, our mom was
born with a neurological condition very similar to cerebral palsy,
and she got up every day and showed up for
her life. And so that was also the blueprint for
the both of us so that we can continue to
(30:24):
be the people that we are today.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
Billy, your life's work has been about creating change through art.
What's one piece of advice you'd give someone looking to
make a difference in their own unique way.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
My advice would be that you have to.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Understand who you are, understand what the calling and the
purpose is, and just get up and put one foot
in front of the other and do it. Every day,
tell the truth, you know, and like I said, the
truth is not always easy. You know, as we've seen
(31:05):
over the last decade, the truth is under attack. You know,
a lot of people don't want to hear the truth.
A lot of people don't want the truth because the
truth can be horrifying sometimes and the truth will set
you for you and a lot of people don't want
to be set free.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
They say they do, but they don't want it.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
That was what was so interesting about trauma therapy, you know,
because trauma therapy is about the truth and I want
to and I want to be set free.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
And then you start the process and you're.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
Like, oh, there's some days you don't want to go back.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah, in some days that the truth is not you know,
not today, not today.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
To Billy and to Mary Martha, thank you for bringing
just this beautiful energy between the two of you. For
those who are listening, I love how often you were
holding each other's hands and leaning into each other's shoulders
and just being there as siblings in this incredible way.
And you know, through this episode, I love how much
you've spoken about that unwavering family support that you've provided
(32:17):
for each other. The you know, seeing you get teared
up and you're talking about your mother, you know, the
courage to break barriers that she did in her own life.
And I'm left with these three you know reflections. One
this importance of self compassion. I love Billy how you
talked about setting boundaries, about setting boundaries relationship, setting boundaries
for yourself, and it starts with self putting the oxygen
(32:37):
mask on first. Second, I love that you talked about
forgiveness and even finding ways to forgive individuals in unconventional ways,
as you said, the body doesn't know the difference when
you were there eight times a week for multiple years
forgiving as an actor, but forgiving the father figure and
what that meant for you and to be free in
(32:58):
that way. But I got to say, the single greatest
takeaway was authenticity, Like just you've lived your life with authenticity.
I love when you said you don't mind failing as
long as you're not failing as somebody else. And I
love the line You've got to choose yourself, like my god,
I wish everyone and it doesn't matter what your artist
(33:19):
passion purpose like, just got to choose yourself whatever it
ends up being. And so I love that you took
time to share that with us, but mostly I love
that you lived it. You proved it through your life
like that's how you've living your legacy, and in this
beautiful conversation, the two of you together showing us this
path to a more fulfilled life. We are grateful to
(33:40):
both of you.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
We're grateful to you. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Thanks for joining us for this best of episode of
My Legacy with Billy Porter and Mary Martha Ford. A
powerful way to kick off Pride Month. If you want
to hear the full conversation, head to the My Legacy
playlist wherever you get your podcasts, and stay tuned. We'll
be sharing more highlights from our favorite episodes every Tuesday
through the end of July. Don't forget to subscribe so
(34:09):
you never miss an episode.
We're ten years apart, and she's been my best friend
since she was a baby. I was queer very early
in our community. That came with a lot of pushback
from our community. You know, when it was time to
make the unconditional love choice. She and my mother both
(00:27):
made that choice in the faith of an entire community
and infrastructure, telling them both that they were going to burn.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
In hell for doing so.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
That was the incomparable Billy Porter And to kick off
Pride Month today, we are sharing a special best of
episode with the Emmy, Grammy and Tony Award winning artist
on the My Legacy podcast. Joining him is his beloved
sister and best friend, Mary Martha Ford, whose unconditional love
has helped shape his remarkable journey. Hosted by Martin Luther
(01:00):
King the Third and his wife Andrea Waters King, and
their friends Mark and Craig Kilberger, this episode is a
powerful reminder of what it means to live your truth,
no matter the cost. Together, Billy and Mary Martha teach
us what it takes to choose yourself in a world
that tells you not to, how unconditional love can break
generational cycles, the role of art in healing trauma, and
(01:25):
why authenticity isn't just brave, it's necessary. This is one
of our most moving episodes and a celebration of the
courage it takes to live out loud.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Let's jump in, well, welcome to my legacy. We're here
with Billy Porter. Billy, you are on the brink of
egot status, an elite group of artists who have won
the Emmy, the Grammy, the Oscar and the Tony. His
extraordinary life story is one of courage, resilience, and authenticity,
(01:55):
and we hope it will inspire you to create a
living legacy and lead a more fulfilled life. On this podcast,
we don't just hear from iconic figures. We also connect
with the people who know them best to give us
deeper understanding of the challenges and the triumphs that have
shaped their legacy. Joining Billy today is his sister, Mary
Martha Ford, whose love and support have been central to
(02:17):
his remarkable journey. Billy and Mary Martha, what a privilege
it is to be with you, and thank you for
being here. And so, Billy, we got to start off
by asking you to introduce Mary Martha and sharing what
makes her such an important person in your life.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Okay, well, Mary Martha Elizabeth Ford is my baby sister.
We're ten years apart, and she's been my best friend
since she was a baby. It's like I couldn't wait
till she was old enough so we could like hang out.
I was like, get your childhood all over with please,
(02:56):
so we can hang out. You know, I call her
the rock star because you know, she turned she has
turned a very complicated life into something great for herself
(03:18):
and everyone around her.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
And I'm just, you know, honored to call her my
rock star sister.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Oh the sweet thank you, it's beautiful. I love that
I'm here with my brother.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
I just I've got goosebumps or as you would say,
god bumps listening to that one. I love it, Billy.
So we're talking about legacy, and can you take us
way back to Pittsburgh. Can you tell us a little
bit about your childhood and maybe share a story that
really helps to shine a light on what life was
like for you growing up in your younger years.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
It was tough, you know, it was traumatizing very often,
and there was a lot of love.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
As well.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
And I had a lot of angels in my life
who were encamped around me who saw me in ways
that sometimes my immediate family, my immediate sort of community.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Didn't understand.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And these people were able to just kind of guide
me in the right directions so that I could dream
and accomplish beyond my circumstance. You know, A music teacher
(04:51):
identified that I could think. And from that point on,
you know, in the fifth grade, and from that point on,
the angels in my life stepped in and made sure
that I, you know, that I was able to, like
(05:13):
I said, dream and accomplish beyond my circumstance.
Speaker 6 (05:18):
Mary Martha, I've got a question for you, yes, being
ten years younger, what was your down dynamic like when Billy,
you know, kind of growing up and how has it evolved?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
How is it evolved?
Speaker 7 (05:32):
So I don't remember him until my first memory was
maybe when we were five, five or six and it
was Christmas morning. That's one of my first memories, Christmas
morning and him waking me up and taking me like
I rode his back into the living room and there
(05:53):
were gifts and there were gifts that he bought me
with his own money because he had a job where
he yet kenny Wood which because Kennywood Park, which was
our amusement Park. I just remember Billy being kind and
my friend, someone that I looked up to, and he
(06:13):
was always singing, and so we were always everywhere where
he was singing and performing.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
My mom and I would be there all of the time.
Speaker 7 (06:24):
I should have been at home on a school night,
but I was in the theater wherever he was. That's
where we were, and so that's how I ended up
catching the theater bug as well. How has it evolved?
It has evolved from being I don't know, just brother
(06:45):
and sister to best friends, and so I can call
him about anything. We talk every morning, you know, there's
you know, just to check in how you doing. I'm
doing all right, what you're doing today? And I'm very
grateful for that. I recognize that the relationship as siblings
that he and I have is not one that lots
of people can say that they have with their siblings,
(07:06):
and so it's something that I used to take for granted,
which I don't take for granted anymore because now I
recognize how true and precious it is.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
What's so fascinating to me about that story, though, is
I can just imagine, see if you were in fifth
grade and then Billy is about ten years older than you.
Like you all said a little bit earlier that there's
a lot of trauma kind of growing up. But here, this,
to me, says it all about your heart, about the
(07:39):
fact of being an entertainer. You worked, just make sure
I heard the story correctly, and then make sure that
your sister had a good Christmas, your baby's sister. It's
almost like that, you know that protection. But not only that,
it seemed like there was so much joy. You got
as much joy that Christmas morning. I just thought that
(08:02):
that's such a beauty. I actually almost bought tears in
my eyes just I can kind of see you all,
you know, going through that, and I think it's so extraordinary,
and I'm so I'm also curious, then, Billy, how has
your sister been a source of strength for you throughout
your lives growing up?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Don't cry she.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
You know, she was younger than me and I was
queer very early in our community. That came with a
lot of pushback.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
From our.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Community and our family, and you know, when it was
time to make the unconditional love choice, she and my
mother both made that choice in the faith of an
(09:10):
entire community and infrastructure telling them both that they were
going to burn in hell for doing so. Mary Martha
was the first, you know, person that I came out
to in my family, even before you know, when she
(09:33):
was sixteen, Yeah, before my mother. Well no, I told
my mother, but my mother wasn't able to receive it
for a while. So my sister was was able to
receive it at such a young age, and she was
so present in the moment for me and so evolved,
(09:57):
you know, And it was something that I had worked
on trying to give her, you know, trying to actually.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Be the same kind of angel.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
For her that I had experienced for myself, to show
her that there were spaces outside of our immediate infrastructure.
There were people outside of.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Our status quo.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And experiences outside of that.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That were just as important.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
And more important than the religious dogma that.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
You know, was trying to sort of be ingrained at us.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
There were other options, and I was sort of trying
to show her those other options. And I didn't realize
that they had taken hold until I came out to
her at sixteen.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
They had already taken hold. All of those things that.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I was trying to instill, had already taken hold and
it was you know, it was magical, It was emotional,
and it was gratifying and spiritual and all those things you.
Speaker 5 (11:26):
Know when you've heard something and it stays with you.
If you're still thinking about this conversation, don't keep it
to yourself. Subscribe to my Legacy podcast, share it with
someone who's navigating something hard, or just a way to say.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
I see you.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Now.
Speaker 8 (11:48):
Back to my Legacy will Billy and Mary Martha. We
admire your tenacity, your love, your compassion towards each other.
I also want to turn to your amazing career, Billy.
Your career has been a masterclass breaking barriers and living authentically.
What drives you to keep using your voice to create
such substantive change as you do.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Artists have the power to reach inside of a human
being and transform them from the inside out. Art has
the power to heal all kinds of traumas. My soul
(12:33):
was saved because.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Of the art.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
If I didn't have the arts, I don't think I
would be alive right now.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Maybe, And I know.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
That when I'm at my lowest, for as long as
I can remember, it's my art that gets me out of.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Bed in the morning, and there was also growing up.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
No representation, really, no mainstream crossover rotator representation of somebody.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Who looked like me, who stood at that intersection of blackness,
queerness and spirituality, and the ones who did were ignored, dismissed,
(13:39):
passed over, erased. And so I know how I know
what it felt like to be invisible for over half
my life. And the only reason why I'm not invisible
is because I chose myself. I chose my authenticity.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I to have the audacity to actually choose myself, choose
my authenticity and then stand on that.
Speaker 5 (14:09):
Did you do that deliberately or do you think that
choice was made for you?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
No?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
No, Because for the first part of my life and
my career, I was trying to fit in so I
could eat. I wasn't lying, you know, but it was
the don't ask, don't tell era of the world, and
so I wasn't telling. I wasn't lying, but I wasn't telling,
(14:38):
and the omission of not telling is ultimately a lie,
and that binds you as well, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
And so I had the gift of failing.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
At somebody else, and particularly in the music industry in
the nineties, and I just vow to myself that I
would never show up as somebody else again, and whatever
that meant for my life and career is whatever it means.
(15:21):
And I still say that today. You know, I grew
up in a family who believed you got to stand
for something or you'll fall for anything. So even right now,
you know with how you look at me, with how
you see me, which I think is so humbling and
so inspiring and exactly my point right to exist inside
(15:46):
of the truth and to have the audacity to be
authentic and to speak truth always, no matter how uncomfortable
it may be to some of the people around you.
Sometimes is great, and sometimes it's that so great, you know,
(16:08):
sometimes there are consequences that come with that, as you know.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
So I'm grateful that my work.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And my efforts and my intentions are being seen and
experienced once again in the spirit in which I am
sharing them.
Speaker 8 (16:38):
Billy, We're all so glad that you've chosen that authenticity,
and I just want to say thank you for your eloquence.
Mary Martin went to want to ask you a quick
question about a moment that Billy's love and support made
a difference in your life.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Oh, his love.
Speaker 7 (16:57):
What people don't know is just how kind, like really
genuinely kind Billy is. And about fourteen years ago, I
had a medical scare where I had to have brain
surgery and I was going to be down for the
count for at least six weeks and Billy was working
on a show in New York and the show ended
(17:21):
on a Sunday. He got in the car on Monday,
drove home to Pittsburgh. I had surgery on a Tuesday.
And then he stayed with me for six weeks and
he took excellent care of me. So he's a great caregiver.
He's a good chef too. People don't know that he liked.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
That's the thing that I would say.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
You know, Covid Lockdown really showed me.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
That cooking is something that soothes me, okay, and something
that's really healing to me.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And it's a love language for me.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
You know, I'm not like a big gift giver and
I'm not like I'm not like that, but I love
to show love through cooking. And if I cook for you,
I love you.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
I don't cook for I don't generally cook for people
who I don't like or care about.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
Do you have a specialty he just likes to cook
just anything, huh, anything anything, And he can take anything
that you know, remnants to stuff that's in the refrigerator
and he'll come up with something and it bangs. That's
how I know, Mary Martha, that's a good cook. That's
always my my test. I can, like, I can follow
a great recipe, you know, or something that's been passed down,
(18:48):
and I think I'm a.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Pretty good cook.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yes you are.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
My sisters, they go into me a true like like
they can go into the refrigerator and then they can
and see what's there and then make a recipe and
then make it taste good. That That always is my
benchmark for Yeah, I see there you go and okay,
then you use that that passes That passed the test.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
We'd love it if you shared this episode of the
My Legacy podcast with someone you admire, someone who shows up,
who cares deeply, who lives their legacy every day. We'll
be back in a moment.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Now, back to My Legacy.
Speaker 6 (19:33):
Reilly, which which of your projects has had the greatest
impact on your personal growth and perspective as an artist.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
There's not one, but I will say there's a trilogy.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
The first is Tony Kushner's Angels in America, which do
you know that.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
Piece of course, mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
So that was the first time.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
You know, Jeffrey Wright was the original belize in that
back in ninety four, and I went to see that
on Broadway by myself, and that was a transformative moment
because I didn't understand what I was missing, you know,
speaking of representation again, you know, I didn't know that
I was missing seeing a black queer character who was
(20:24):
not the butt of the joke, who was not the
one to be reviled or murdered, but who was the
moral depth and heart of this piece that was very
(20:45):
dark and very heavy and very political, and you know,
with a bunch of white people swirling around him, he
was the one that held it all together emotionally and spiritually.
And so that changed everything because up in so then
my trajectory was not what I wanted it to be.
(21:05):
And then Kinky Boots, which was the original dream coming true,
you know, the creation of an iconic character in the canon.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Of the Broadway musical that was me, that was developed.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
And written around my skill set that I won the
Tony and Grammy for.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
That was you know, and inside of that.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
You know, my character, who's a drag queen, drag artist,
you know, has a very not great relationship with his father,
and he actively forgives him in the story. And my
relationship with both of my fathers was tenuous at best,
(22:00):
and I had a lot of forgiving to do. And
so the act of forgiving, even a fictional character eight
shows a week for three years, is powerful because our
bodies actually don't know the difference. That's the hard part
(22:20):
about being an actor and a performer. Our bodies don't
know the difference when we're faking it, but our bodies,
in our nervous system still thinks it's the same, and
we have to do the work to sort of untangle
that emotionally and spiritually for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
The third piece is pose.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Because the character of Pray tell the community that it's
dealing with the timeframe that it exists in.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
All of those things.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Are part of what it feels like as an artist
to be in the center of your purpose, calling and ministry.
Those three pieces were a culmination of really really hard
and focused work and choices that I had made for
(23:15):
two decades, you know, to get there.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
You know, I walked away from the status quo.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
I took the road less traveled because I knew that
if I was going to continue down the trajectory that
I was on, I would.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Never be happy.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
And it's so interesting because with that comes a lot
of I mean there, you know, there's a reason why
the road less traveled can be lonely sometime. So you know,
from the end, it seems like, oh, this is, you know,
such a it's a lot of celebrations, but what people
don't really see and understand is all the sacrifices. I
think that goals into that not only when you're doing it,
(23:59):
but I'm sure you know even now. And one of
the things that I've been so curious about is that
you've been a shining beacon for so many young people
struggling right to embrace who they are. But being one
of the first black queer men to live, I mean
just so boldly and particularly in the spotlight, I know
(24:22):
it comes with intense pressure. All we know about the
pressure that people don't see. Can you can you just
share an experience or what that has been like for you.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I want to tell the truth, yep.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
And I've been trying to find ways to tell my
truth with an eye towards the compassionate and the positive.
You know, the most difficult thing for me is being
put out by your own You know, I'm already black,
(25:00):
I'm a man, I'm black first. But for some reason,
inside of this queer conversation, this queerness conversation, in this
intersection with the black community, it.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Says, if queerness.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Doesn't exist, it is a very we have a very
homophobic community, and we've grown, and I want to say
that too, we've grown. There has been movement, and I'm
grateful for that because I've seen it, because I'm inside
of it, so I've seen it and.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I am grateful for that.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
But I find that that is the hardest thing for
me on a consistent basis, even with the growth, I'm
hit in the face with it at times when I've
let my guard down. Nobody's perfect, nobody does everything right.
(26:08):
You know, we're not going to agree with everybody on everything.
But for me, I've been in this long enough to
know what the motivation is for real, and the motivation
is that I am a black faggot.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And I use the word on purpose.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Because that's how violent these responses are to me simply
being myself. Right, I'm in a sparkly caftan on the
front row. I'm embarrassing to the black community, not everybody.
Let me be clear, how dare I have the audacity
(26:57):
to be on the front row, out loud, proud in address.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
How dare I?
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Is it more anger or hurt? I don't know, No
for you, like when you yes for you, because yeah, yeah,
it's both.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
It's all of the above, you know, because I'm out
here trying to help everybody.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I'm black first, y'all.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Whether y'all want to acknowledge that or not, people see
me as black first babies, you know, even with the
queer community. I've had to start going to things and
being like, y'all know, I'm black first, though, right, I
stand at this intersection, but I'm black first, and clearly.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I have to remind you all of that. So I'm
gonna start.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
Reminding y'all, well, Mary Martha is a black woman, because
that's you know, we talk about that a lot, you know,
you know, being black and being a woman and kind
of all that that that that that brings. Yes, yeah,
all of it.
Speaker 7 (28:00):
I'm black first, woman second, and people, but people put
it together black woman and that that has its own,
its own.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Context.
Speaker 7 (28:12):
For some people, it's not. It's not separate. But I'm
at a lot of intersections myself.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Mary Martha, Can I ask you a question? And I
asked this gingerly and let me acknowledge the fact that
I'm not black, and so I asked this seeking to
listen and learn. You have witnessed your brother go through
challenges but also be a hero for so many in
black community, but just in the community large. When when
you look at him, you have seen him at the
(28:42):
most challenged points of his life, and you've seen in
the most extraordinary points of his life. What are you
most proud of? As his sister who knows him on
an intimate and a personal level in a way that
we never will. But you have seen the struggles, and
you've seen the triumphs.
Speaker 7 (28:58):
Yes, well, the high the highs, and this business can
be high and the lows can be really low. And
what I'm most proud of is how he continues to
get up every day and to show up.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
For his life.
Speaker 7 (29:12):
That's what I'm most proud of because that is something
that I strive for. I can look to him and
I say, he gets up every day and he is
showing up for his life. I too can get up
every day and show up for my life. It doesn't
matter what people say, even though you know you're human
(29:37):
and so yes, sometimes the things that people that people
may say or miscategorize you as of course, that's going
to bother you. But he keeps getting up and moving
through it. And that's what's very inspiring.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Did that kind of help you when you were talking
about having brain surgery? And oh yeah, like it was
that also something that helped you.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Get in through that?
Speaker 7 (30:03):
Absolutely absolutely. And that and our mother, our mom was
born with a neurological condition very similar to cerebral palsy,
and she got up every day and showed up for
her life. And so that was also the blueprint for
the both of us so that we can continue to
(30:24):
be the people that we are today.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
Billy, your life's work has been about creating change through art.
What's one piece of advice you'd give someone looking to
make a difference in their own unique way.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
My advice would be that you have to.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Understand who you are, understand what the calling and the
purpose is, and just get up and put one foot
in front of the other and do it. Every day,
tell the truth, you know, and like I said, the
truth is not always easy. You know, as we've seen
(31:05):
over the last decade, the truth is under attack. You know,
a lot of people don't want to hear the truth.
A lot of people don't want the truth because the
truth can be horrifying sometimes and the truth will set
you for you and a lot of people don't want
to be set free.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
They say they do, but they don't want it.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
That was what was so interesting about trauma therapy, you know,
because trauma therapy is about the truth and I want
to and I want to be set free.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
And then you start the process and you're.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
Like, oh, there's some days you don't want to go back.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah, in some days that the truth is not you know,
not today, not today.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
To Billy and to Mary Martha, thank you for bringing
just this beautiful energy between the two of you. For
those who are listening, I love how often you were
holding each other's hands and leaning into each other's shoulders
and just being there as siblings in this incredible way.
And you know, through this episode, I love how much
you've spoken about that unwavering family support that you've provided
(32:17):
for each other. The you know, seeing you get teared
up and you're talking about your mother, you know, the
courage to break barriers that she did in her own life.
And I'm left with these three you know reflections. One
this importance of self compassion. I love Billy how you
talked about setting boundaries, about setting boundaries relationship, setting boundaries
for yourself, and it starts with self putting the oxygen
(32:37):
mask on first. Second, I love that you talked about
forgiveness and even finding ways to forgive individuals in unconventional ways,
as you said, the body doesn't know the difference when
you were there eight times a week for multiple years
forgiving as an actor, but forgiving the father figure and
what that meant for you and to be free in
(32:58):
that way. But I got to say, the single greatest
takeaway was authenticity, Like just you've lived your life with authenticity.
I love when you said you don't mind failing as
long as you're not failing as somebody else. And I
love the line You've got to choose yourself, like my god,
I wish everyone and it doesn't matter what your artist
(33:19):
passion purpose like, just got to choose yourself whatever it
ends up being. And so I love that you took
time to share that with us, but mostly I love
that you lived it. You proved it through your life
like that's how you've living your legacy, and in this
beautiful conversation, the two of you together showing us this
path to a more fulfilled life. We are grateful to
(33:40):
both of you.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
We're grateful to you. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Thanks for joining us for this best of episode of
My Legacy with Billy Porter and Mary Martha Ford. A
powerful way to kick off Pride Month. If you want
to hear the full conversation, head to the My Legacy
playlist wherever you get your podcasts, and stay tuned. We'll
be sharing more highlights from our favorite episodes every Tuesday
through the end of July. Don't forget to subscribe so
(34:09):
you never miss an episode.
Hosts And Creators
Craig Kielburger
Marc Kielburger
Martin Luther King III
Arndrea Waters King
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.