July 15, 2025 • 27 mins
What does it take to live – and lead – with your whole self?
In this Best Of My Legacy episode, hosts Martin Luther King III, Arndrea Waters King, Marc Kielburger, and Craig Kielburger explore what it means to stand in your truth, even when it costs you.
- Billy Porter reflects on the years he spent hiding who he was, and the fierce joy of finally showing up fully.
- Jemele Hill shares why speaking out – even when it risked her career – helped her build unshakable courage for moments with much lower stakes.
- Patrick Kennedy opens up about addiction, shame, and the unraveling that led him to champion mental health for millions.
- Sarah Jakes Roberts shares how embracing her own messy, beautiful truth helped her lead with vulnerability and grace.
If you've ever struggled with the pressure to be someone you're not, this episode is for you.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You don't know if you're gonna meet the moment until
the moment find you. You have no idea. You think
you know what you would do, you think you know
how you might respond, but you don't really actually know
till you're right there in the fire.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You know.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Donald Trump singled me out on social media as that
was happening. I mean, I'm making mental decisions in real time,
and I had to sort of have a few moments
with myself and saying like, Okay, if this results in
you being fired, like right in this moment, what are
you gonna do?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
That was Jamel Hill thrown into a national firestorm after
being publicly singled out by the President of the United States.
What followed tested her convictions like never before. What does
it mean to show up as your whole self no
matter the cost? In this best of episode of My Legacy,
host Smartin Luther King the Third, Andrea Waters, King, Mark Kilberger,
(00:54):
and Craig Kilberger explore what it means to tell the
truth about who you are and stand in it even
when it's hard, when it's messy, when the world tells
you not to. We'll hear from Billy Porter on why
the comfort of being accepted. Is it worth the pain
of hiding your truth? Patrick Kennedy on turning a public
unraveling into a greater purpose. Jamel Hill reminds us courage
(01:16):
isn't planned, it's revealed. And first up. Sarah Jakes Roberts,
the heir to Bishop TD Jakes's ministry, on how embracing
her truth became her greatest calling.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Sarah becoming a mom at fourteen, I'm sure that was
a lot of judgment, a lot of pressure, expectations, especially
when you look at it within the faith community. Right,
So what do you remember around that in that moment
and how do you feel it shaped you and your
legacy moving forward.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Fourteen is such a young age to become a mother
that I think to properly contextualize it, you have to
understand that I was not afraid of being pregnant or
having a baby. I thought I was going to get
in trouble. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to
get grounded or my parents are going to be so upset.
It wasn't until I saw their response that I began
(02:08):
to realize that this is much bigger than like you
got in trouble, like your life has completely changed. But
to my mom's credit, one of the things she told me,
she's like, I didn't get rid of my babies. I
didn't give them away. Whatever you decide to do, I'm
going to stick with you every step of the way.
And she did that, and a man, there were so
many moments where I've won. I felt like the pregnancy
(02:30):
just solidified this idea that I don't belong in that family.
So if you go back to that image of me
as a little girl being confused and amazed, I think
in that moment, it was solidified, like, oh my goodness,
you don't belong here, and so it became so easy
for me to kind of move into the background. But
I think in moving into the background that it also
gave me an opportunity to discover my identity outside of
(02:53):
my family name. It's like I'm already the black Sheep,
I'm already disconnected. Now I get to just kind of
figure out who I am and what I want to
do with my life. And though my life had certainly
had some twist and turns, even since having the pregnancy,
I found a real sense of being okay with myself
without the validation of other people. Because I'd lost it
in many ways. And the moment that I began to
(03:15):
really say, you know what, this is my story. I'm
gonna love it, I'm gonna embrace it, and I'm gonna
wake up each day and really do the best that
I can, I began to see my life change for myself.
And so I started writing this blog just about me.
I was in this toxic marriage and I was like,
you know what, my life is unraveling, and I'm going
to help it come undone by telling these stories on
(03:36):
this blog. And people started gravitating towards my message, like,
oh my gosh, that's me. You took the words that
I couldn't say, Oh my gosh, this is what I
would pray to God if I could pray these things.
And I was like, oh my goodness, this is not ministry,
Like this is just me telling my story. I can't
be a ministry. I'm a teen mom. And so I
wrote this blog post where I was like, I'm gonna
just let everybody know that I'm a teen mom so
they can stop putting that pressure on me. It kind
(03:58):
of backfired because there like, oh my goodness, now that
I know that you have a story too, now I
trust you even.
Speaker 6 (04:04):
More, Sarah.
Speaker 7 (04:05):
When I think of your ministry or I think of
women involve it has been built on this radical transparency,
like you have redefined what it means to be a
woman of faith based on radical transparency, your past, your marriage,
You're sharing your stories. Why has it being so important
for you to be this radically transparent with all those
who look to you?
Speaker 5 (04:27):
You know, I don't know that I saw it as
radical when it started. Like I said, I kind of
thought that if I told people, they would be like, oh,
my goodness, will leave her alone and it won't be
a thing. But the more that I realized how many
of us are suffering in silence, the more I felt like,
if I can tell my story and it helps someone else,
then I'll tell it one more time, and if it
helps someone else, I'll tell it another time. And I
(04:50):
think what I have learned is that through isolation, the
darker voices, the harder voices, the meaner voices that we
hear in our head, they're loud, and until you hear
someone say like, hey, I felt that too, But I'm
telling you it wasn't always like that, or that I
found a flicker that it gives someone permission to start
looking for light even in their dark seasons. And I
(05:13):
didn't want to. I didn't want to be in ministry.
I didn't have this as like a goal in my heart.
And so I'm like, if I'm gonna do this, I'm
gonna at least be honest. I don't want anyone to
ever be surprised that because I preached a message that
I experienced depression, that I worked at a strip club,
Like I want you to know, like this is what
you're getting. It is not much, but I am gonna
(05:34):
give my best. I'm gonna share my best, and if
I make you feel less alone, then girl, we could
grab arms and move towards better together. But I just didn't.
I just didn't want to. I didn't want to live
on a pedestal. I wanted to be able to Sometimes
on my social media, I'll be like all glammed up,
dressed up. Other moments I'll literally be snatching my wig
off and washing my face like this is like this
(05:55):
is all of who I am, and I just don't
want people to be connected to this caricature. I don't
want to be trapped in my own life, and so
for me My honesty has been my freedom. My honesty
has been the runway that allows me to not feel
stuck in this life. And I think because of that,
(06:16):
my prayer is that I'll continue to have endurance for
what is ahead because I don't have to figure out
how do I keep this mask up? How do I
keep this facade going? My greatest question is how do
I continue to be honest in a way that reaches
the most unlikely person?
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Coming up Billy Porter on the one thing he will
never compromise again. And an unforgettable conversation with Jamel Hill
as she takes us inside the moment she risked it
all to stand in her truth.
Speaker 8 (06:50):
Now back to my legacy, Billy, your career has been
a masterclass in breaking barriers and living authentically. What drives
you to keep using your voice to create such substantive
change as you do.
Speaker 9 (07:02):
Artists have the power to reach inside of a human
being and transform them from the inside out. Art has
the power to heal all kinds of traumas. My soul
(07:27):
was saved because of the art. If I didn't have
the arts, I don't think I would be alive right now. Maybe,
and I know that when I'm at my lowest for
(07:48):
as long as I can remember, it's my art that
gets me out of bed in the morning. And there
was also growing up, no representation, really, no mainstream crossover
rotator representation of somebody who looked like me, who stood
(08:16):
at that intersection of blackness, queerness and spirituality, and the
ones who did were ignored, dismissed, passed over, erased. And
(08:37):
so I know how I know what it felt like
to be invisible for over half my life. And the
only reason why I'm not invisible is because I chose myself.
I chose my authenticity. I chose to have the audacity
to actually choose myself, choose my authenticity and then stand
(09:02):
on that.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Did you do that deliberately or do you think that
choice was made for you?
Speaker 9 (09:08):
No? No, because for the first part of my life
and my career, I was trying to fit in so
I could eat. I wasn't lying, you know, but it
was the don't act, don't tell era of the world,
and so I wasn't telling. I wasn't lying, but I
(09:32):
wasn't telling, and the omission of not telling is ultimately
a lie, and that binds you as well, you know.
Speaker 6 (09:41):
And so.
Speaker 9 (09:44):
I had the gift of failing at somebody else, and
particularly in the music industry in the nineties, and I
just vow to myself that I would never show up
(10:07):
as somebody else again, and whatever that meant for my
life and career is whatever it means. And I still
say that today. You know, I grew up in a
family who believed you got to stand for something or
you'll fall for anything. So even right now, you know,
(10:28):
with how you look at me, with how you see me,
which I think is so humbling and so inspiring and
exactly my point right to exist inside of the truth
and to have the audacity to be authentic and to
speak truth always, no matter how uncomfortable it may be
(10:55):
to some of the people around you. Sometimes is great,
and sometimes it's that so great, you know, sometimes there
are consequences that come with that, as you know. So
I'm grateful that my work and my efforts and my
(11:20):
intentions are being seen and experienced once again in the
spirit in which I am carrying them.
Speaker 7 (11:35):
I got to go all the way back to the origin,
because when I look at the courage it took at
a very young age Patrick to be open, you know,
to battle addiction bipolar disorder rehabit eighteen. Yeah, can you
take us back to how that moment in your life
and frankly, how formative it was for you sitting here today.
Speaker 6 (11:56):
Well, of course, in my family.
Speaker 10 (11:58):
Even though we're big social justice like everyone else, we
felt really imprisoned by the shame and stigma of mental
health and addiction issues.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
We wouldn't talk about them, even though whereas I.
Speaker 10 (12:10):
Said, we're very progressive in all the rest, because the
power of.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
Shame and stigma are so strong.
Speaker 10 (12:17):
I did not become a leader as some profile and
courage that my uncle wrote about profiles and courage. I
reacted to a situation where the fellow that I had
been in drug rehab with had sold his story of
being in rehab with the Kennedy to the National Enquirer,
And so I had to see my own face on
(12:38):
the cover of the National Choir with the headlines Patrick
Kennedy drug addict and this is my going into my
second term in public office. Of course I thought my
political career was over. This was back in nineteen ninety
one when these were really big issues. Of Course, today
nothing knocks you out of the box because everything's fair game.
But my constituents was really something. They really didn't like
(13:02):
what had happened to me, and so they I was
re elected. When I got to Washington, I could sponsor
all this mental health legislation, including the one that I
kind of became known for, which is the Mental Health
Parody and Addiction Equedact. And I was the first name
on that bill. I was the youngest member of Congress
(13:24):
from the smallest state in the country, and yet I
got to put my name number one on a bill
that simply said that we had to treat the brain
like any other organ of the body and have insurance
coverage cover all the illnesses. Nobody wanted to be champion
of the And if you had a bill with the
title bill had the words mental in it and addiction,
(13:46):
I mean what politician wants to be the primary sponsor that?
Because of course the next question is, well, do you
have a mental health issue or an addiction issue? And
no one wants to answer that because of course we
all do, and so they don't want to go down
that rabbit hole. But for me, since this guy kind
of rated on me, I was thrown out there and
it ended up being one of the greatest things that
(14:06):
ever happened in my life.
Speaker 6 (14:08):
So God works in mysterious ways.
Speaker 7 (14:11):
Patrick, You've always been open on mental health issues, You've
talked about it, but the diagnosis of bipolar came later,
and a lot of people struggle without understanding diagnosis. So
can you help us understand a little bit of what
was your own personal journey to understand what you were
experiencing with the lens that that might help some of
the listeners who are searching on their own journey.
Speaker 10 (14:30):
Well, you know, bipolar was used to be known as
manic depression, so I experienced a lot of mania and
part of the reason I was elected at twenty one
to the state legislature and then elected to Congress at
twenty seven. You'd sell, well, what is anyone thinking doing that?
But I, of course I had this fueled by the
(14:52):
fact that my family did big things, So of course
part of me thought, well, I can do big things.
But you know, it was definitely over my ski and
so there was that. And then self medicating with alcohol
and drugs was a way I used to manage those symptoms. Ironically,
I had the best psychiatrists in the world, but they
(15:12):
didn't often get the training and addiction I have just
celebrated my fourteenth year of continuous sobriety. I didn't get
sober until I was forty two. I was in and
out of hospitals throughout my time in Congress, and most
of them were obviously all anonymous. I made a big point,
(15:33):
even though I'm the champion of anti stigma, to not
say that I'm going in there because I still felt
the stigma. It's still very alive and well. So I
went to the Mayo Clinic rather than Hazelton for my
drug treatment because I thought if I went to the
Mayo Clinic, people might think I had a real illness,
(15:56):
you know, And that's when the height of my work
on parody. So this is very still very stigmatized, and
you know the best way to change that is to
normalize mental health as part of overall health.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Coming up, Jamel Hill takes on President Trump and refuses
to back down. Subscribe and share. You won't want to
miss this.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Now back to my legacy.
Speaker 7 (16:30):
You talk about courage, and I want to reflect on
what that courage has meant because you know, very famously
in twenty eighteen, you called out President Trump's racism, You
called out Jerry Jones his stance on players taking a knee,
and that ultimately costs you your job. You know that
that's courage. And so when you talk about courage, when
(16:51):
you reflect back on that time, what did that teach
you about your voice? What does that teach you about
your values? And frankly, what did it teach you about
your willingness to risk at all for what you believe in?
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Well, I'm sure a lot of people who have been
in far more dangerous positions than that one, especially as
you know, with you all being so intimately acquainted with
the civil rights movement, is that you don't know if
you're gonna meet the moment until the moment find you.
You have no idea. So if you would have asked
me before that actually happened, Hey, if this was the scenario,
(17:21):
what would you do? You think you know what you
would do, You think you know how you might respond,
but you don't really actually know till you're right there
in the fire. And so all of the decisions that
I made as the you know, White House called for
me to be fired, as you know, Donald Trump singled
me out on social media as that was happening. I mean,
I'm making mental decisions in real time, and I had
(17:45):
to sort of have a few moments with myself and
saying like, Okay, if this results in you being fired,
like right in this moment, what are you gonna do?
Or if they put it on the table, hey, either
apologize to the president or you're gonna have to leave here.
Speaker 10 (18:01):
What are you gonna do?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
And I every instinct and every cell in my body
was like, if they asked me to apologize to the president,
I'm not gonna do it. And I made that clear
very early. I'm never apologizing to him. I said what
I said, and we just got to live with that.
The other part of it, too, is like knowing that, hey,
if this is the end of the road right here.
You know, I didn't leave ESPN until a year later,
(18:26):
and I'd left on my own terms, and if at
the moment they had to make a business decision, I
just I would have lived with it. I mean, it
wouldn't feel good, especially given all the work that I
put in to get to that point. And there's not
many people who get the opportunity to anchor the six
o'clock Sports Center, one of the sort of treasured time
(18:48):
slots at ESPN. But if that was the result, that
was the result. And at you know, when stuff like
this happens, where your integrity and your character is questioned,
you have to be able to live with yourself. And
I would not have been able to live with myself
had I capitulated in a way that I think would
(19:08):
not have spoke to who authentically I am. So it
was a lot of lessons that I've found out in
real time and just because the situation was there, And
I'm thankful for that, because when similar situations, maybe not
always involving the President of the United States, but when
(19:28):
other tests of your character, your integrity, when those things happen,
it's muscle memory. Now you're confident because you've already done it.
And I've done it at a level that most people
don't get to do it at. And so when I'm
in meetings or in determining business relationships and things pop
(19:49):
up where you have to stand on something, I'm so
much more comfortable doing that because I've already done it before.
It's very similar to an athlete. I mean, I'm sure
Michael Jordan missed a lot of game winning shots before
he actually made him, and when he finally made one,
it became muscle memory, and then after that that dude
was never losing, So I sort of approach it with
(20:11):
the mentality that an athlete might.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
So even before that happened. Let's also go back to
your beginning days of ESPN, because, as you mentioned earlier,
you found yourself in rooms where you were, you know,
most times, one, if not the only woman, you know,
certainly probably the only black woman. So if we're talking
about legacy on this show, you know, and you at
(20:36):
ESPN early two thousands, you know that legacy is there.
But you said about that time that it is both
isolating and yet motivating. Can you share with our listeners
a little bit by what you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So the isolating part is when I was a sports
columnist at the Orlando Sentinel. This would have been in
two thousand and five and most of two thousand and six,
I was the only black female sports columnist at a
daily newspaper in North America. And notice I didn't just
say America, right, So that's one out of four hundred
(21:10):
and five newspapers, And that is an embarrassing statistic for
the profession of journalism, and a lot of people might've
thought that that would have given me some sense of accomplishment.
It did not.
Speaker 10 (21:24):
It.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
What it was communicating to me, and even worse, communicating
to other women who might wanna get in the business,
is that your voices aren't necessary nor are they valued.
And so that's the isolating part, and you know it
also comes with a lot of scrutiny because you're the
only one and a lot of black people have been
in this uh situation and in all industries. Is that
(21:48):
when you're the only one, you then become the test case, right,
So you have to carry yourself a certain way because
you are living with the burden of if I mess up,
no one else is coming after me. Black people aren't perfect, right,
So it's like, if I make some junior mistakes or whatever,
if that's the reason why you won't see value in
(22:11):
black women having voices in the sports space, then that
to me reflects more on you than it does on me.
So you're carrying all of this, but at the same time,
you know, getting to ESPN, a place that is considered
to be for our profession at the very top, if
you're in sports media, being the most powerful sports media
company in America, then you know there's something to be
(22:35):
celebrated by being able to advance and take that step
and realize that all the hard work has brought you
to this place and brought you to this sense of elevation.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
But it's always to.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Me about who is able to come behind you. As
a result, now, UESPN is in a very different position
because they can hire whoever they want, and you look
at their team picture and it's very diverse because they
have a lot of women. And even before I got there,
Robin Roberts was the one who set the table, you know,
and so they've always had a steady pipeline of women
(23:12):
of color and putting them in certain positions. Where I
was a little bit different is that they were traditional anchors,
and I was one of the few that were able
to develop a foot hole and an imprint at ESPN
by giving my opinion, by creating conversation based off my
perspective and my experience that I had as a sports
(23:35):
journalist over the course of many years. So I was
very thrilled to be there, but I also was fully
aware that if I walk into one more room and
I'm the only one in there, that's not a good room.
It's like I've never been one of those people. And there,
unfortunately are some people of color who are like this
(23:56):
that they do want to be the only one in
the room. I don't want to be the only one
in the room because I don't know everything. I don't
represent the entire totality of women of black women. I
do not do that. And so it's important that we
all you know, when we go in these rooms, that
is not just about getting in the room. It's about
getting in the room and kind of breaking it up
(24:17):
and opening the door even wider so that more of us.
So it's a you know, a flood of us coming in.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
I loved when Kamala Harris said upon accepting the vice presidency,
I might be the first, but I won't be the last.
I love that sentiment. And so here you are at
you know, ESPN, you know, seemingly from the outside, you know,
riding on top of the world. Then you had this
(24:44):
unfair attack and this fall from where you had worked
so hard to be. But throughout all of that Ian
was there, and he you know, walked with you through
that storm and was always at your side. So my
question is you Ian, And particularly for couples that are
listening right now and if they're going through the storm,
(25:06):
they're watching someone that they love go through the storm.
What advice would you have for couples walking that path.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I believe communication is the key, you know, constant communication.
When Jamel had when she was going through her storm,
really first and foremost, I wanted to make sure that
I was there and she felt my presence and she
knew that she wasn't alone. We had a lot of
good times and that was probably the most challenging part
(25:35):
of our relationship up up to that point. So my
biggest thing was making sure that she didn't feel alone,
making sure that she felt my presence and we were
going to get through this together. And naturally, I'm a fixer,
so sometimes I have to dial that back because sometimes
she may just want to vent and she just needs
a listening ear versus you know, solution after solution. But
(25:59):
my goal was to remain positive throughout the entire situation
because I knew something good would come from it, and
a lot of things came from it that were good
on a positive note. So just positivity and communication would
be my advice to any couples going through any type
of turmoil.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, and remember when I got suspended. So I had
a two week suspension. I think I spent the first
week with you, right, So I and you know that
to me said a lot about our relationship. Is that
My immediate instinct after I got suspended was I need
to hop on the plane and I need to be
with him, right because I knew that the comfort I
(26:39):
was looking for, I knew the solace I was looking for.
I knew all of that could be found in him.
And you know that spoke volumes about our you know, relationship,
and I know it probably wasn't the easiest from you
in the sense of that. You know, here you have
me being discussed on all these news channels, and you
know he's all so in the corporate world, so you
(27:02):
have colleagues that are watching this.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Well, the challenge for me was, you know, under normal circumstances,
if I was dating a regular woman, if she got
into an issue with someone at work, I would just
go up there and have a conversation with that guy.
But with it being the President of the United States,
so it was a little handcom.
Speaker 6 (27:18):
So it was a little challenging for me.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
So, and that's another thing, you know, we have fun,
So making her laugh and just making.
Speaker 6 (27:24):
Her feel comfortable.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Thank you for joining us for the best of my legacy.
New episodes drop every Tuesday. Don't forget to subscribe so
you never miss a moment.
You don't know if you're gonna meet the moment until
the moment find you. You have no idea. You think
you know what you would do, you think you know
how you might respond, but you don't really actually know
till you're right there in the fire.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You know.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Donald Trump singled me out on social media as that
was happening. I mean, I'm making mental decisions in real time,
and I had to sort of have a few moments
with myself and saying like, Okay, if this results in
you being fired, like right in this moment, what are
you gonna do?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
That was Jamel Hill thrown into a national firestorm after
being publicly singled out by the President of the United States.
What followed tested her convictions like never before. What does
it mean to show up as your whole self no
matter the cost? In this best of episode of My Legacy,
host Smartin Luther King the Third, Andrea Waters, King, Mark Kilberger,
(00:54):
and Craig Kilberger explore what it means to tell the
truth about who you are and stand in it even
when it's hard, when it's messy, when the world tells
you not to. We'll hear from Billy Porter on why
the comfort of being accepted. Is it worth the pain
of hiding your truth? Patrick Kennedy on turning a public
unraveling into a greater purpose. Jamel Hill reminds us courage
(01:16):
isn't planned, it's revealed. And first up. Sarah Jakes Roberts,
the heir to Bishop TD Jakes's ministry, on how embracing
her truth became her greatest calling.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Sarah becoming a mom at fourteen, I'm sure that was
a lot of judgment, a lot of pressure, expectations, especially
when you look at it within the faith community. Right,
So what do you remember around that in that moment
and how do you feel it shaped you and your
legacy moving forward.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Fourteen is such a young age to become a mother
that I think to properly contextualize it, you have to
understand that I was not afraid of being pregnant or
having a baby. I thought I was going to get
in trouble. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to
get grounded or my parents are going to be so upset.
It wasn't until I saw their response that I began
(02:08):
to realize that this is much bigger than like you
got in trouble, like your life has completely changed. But
to my mom's credit, one of the things she told me,
she's like, I didn't get rid of my babies. I
didn't give them away. Whatever you decide to do, I'm
going to stick with you every step of the way.
And she did that, and a man, there were so
many moments where I've won. I felt like the pregnancy
(02:30):
just solidified this idea that I don't belong in that family.
So if you go back to that image of me
as a little girl being confused and amazed, I think
in that moment, it was solidified, like, oh my goodness,
you don't belong here, and so it became so easy
for me to kind of move into the background. But
I think in moving into the background that it also
gave me an opportunity to discover my identity outside of
(02:53):
my family name. It's like I'm already the black Sheep,
I'm already disconnected. Now I get to just kind of
figure out who I am and what I want to
do with my life. And though my life had certainly
had some twist and turns, even since having the pregnancy,
I found a real sense of being okay with myself
without the validation of other people. Because I'd lost it
in many ways. And the moment that I began to
(03:15):
really say, you know what, this is my story. I'm
gonna love it, I'm gonna embrace it, and I'm gonna
wake up each day and really do the best that
I can, I began to see my life change for myself.
And so I started writing this blog just about me.
I was in this toxic marriage and I was like,
you know what, my life is unraveling, and I'm going
to help it come undone by telling these stories on
(03:36):
this blog. And people started gravitating towards my message, like,
oh my gosh, that's me. You took the words that
I couldn't say, Oh my gosh, this is what I
would pray to God if I could pray these things.
And I was like, oh my goodness, this is not ministry,
Like this is just me telling my story. I can't
be a ministry. I'm a teen mom. And so I
wrote this blog post where I was like, I'm gonna
just let everybody know that I'm a teen mom so
they can stop putting that pressure on me. It kind
(03:58):
of backfired because there like, oh my goodness, now that
I know that you have a story too, now I
trust you even.
Speaker 6 (04:04):
More, Sarah.
Speaker 7 (04:05):
When I think of your ministry or I think of
women involve it has been built on this radical transparency,
like you have redefined what it means to be a
woman of faith based on radical transparency, your past, your marriage,
You're sharing your stories. Why has it being so important
for you to be this radically transparent with all those
who look to you?
Speaker 5 (04:27):
You know, I don't know that I saw it as
radical when it started. Like I said, I kind of
thought that if I told people, they would be like, oh,
my goodness, will leave her alone and it won't be
a thing. But the more that I realized how many
of us are suffering in silence, the more I felt like,
if I can tell my story and it helps someone else,
then I'll tell it one more time, and if it
helps someone else, I'll tell it another time. And I
(04:50):
think what I have learned is that through isolation, the
darker voices, the harder voices, the meaner voices that we
hear in our head, they're loud, and until you hear
someone say like, hey, I felt that too, But I'm
telling you it wasn't always like that, or that I
found a flicker that it gives someone permission to start
looking for light even in their dark seasons. And I
(05:13):
didn't want to. I didn't want to be in ministry.
I didn't have this as like a goal in my heart.
And so I'm like, if I'm gonna do this, I'm
gonna at least be honest. I don't want anyone to
ever be surprised that because I preached a message that
I experienced depression, that I worked at a strip club,
Like I want you to know, like this is what
you're getting. It is not much, but I am gonna
(05:34):
give my best. I'm gonna share my best, and if
I make you feel less alone, then girl, we could
grab arms and move towards better together. But I just didn't.
I just didn't want to. I didn't want to live
on a pedestal. I wanted to be able to Sometimes
on my social media, I'll be like all glammed up,
dressed up. Other moments I'll literally be snatching my wig
off and washing my face like this is like this
(05:55):
is all of who I am, and I just don't
want people to be connected to this caricature. I don't
want to be trapped in my own life, and so
for me My honesty has been my freedom. My honesty
has been the runway that allows me to not feel
stuck in this life. And I think because of that,
(06:16):
my prayer is that I'll continue to have endurance for
what is ahead because I don't have to figure out
how do I keep this mask up? How do I
keep this facade going? My greatest question is how do
I continue to be honest in a way that reaches
the most unlikely person?
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Coming up Billy Porter on the one thing he will
never compromise again. And an unforgettable conversation with Jamel Hill
as she takes us inside the moment she risked it
all to stand in her truth.
Speaker 8 (06:50):
Now back to my legacy, Billy, your career has been
a masterclass in breaking barriers and living authentically. What drives
you to keep using your voice to create such substantive
change as you do.
Speaker 9 (07:02):
Artists have the power to reach inside of a human
being and transform them from the inside out. Art has
the power to heal all kinds of traumas. My soul
(07:27):
was saved because of the art. If I didn't have
the arts, I don't think I would be alive right now. Maybe,
and I know that when I'm at my lowest for
(07:48):
as long as I can remember, it's my art that
gets me out of bed in the morning. And there
was also growing up, no representation, really, no mainstream crossover
rotator representation of somebody who looked like me, who stood
(08:16):
at that intersection of blackness, queerness and spirituality, and the
ones who did were ignored, dismissed, passed over, erased. And
(08:37):
so I know how I know what it felt like
to be invisible for over half my life. And the
only reason why I'm not invisible is because I chose myself.
I chose my authenticity. I chose to have the audacity
to actually choose myself, choose my authenticity and then stand
(09:02):
on that.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Did you do that deliberately or do you think that
choice was made for you?
Speaker 9 (09:08):
No? No, because for the first part of my life
and my career, I was trying to fit in so
I could eat. I wasn't lying, you know, but it
was the don't act, don't tell era of the world,
and so I wasn't telling. I wasn't lying, but I
(09:32):
wasn't telling, and the omission of not telling is ultimately
a lie, and that binds you as well, you know.
Speaker 6 (09:41):
And so.
Speaker 9 (09:44):
I had the gift of failing at somebody else, and
particularly in the music industry in the nineties, and I
just vow to myself that I would never show up
(10:07):
as somebody else again, and whatever that meant for my
life and career is whatever it means. And I still
say that today. You know, I grew up in a
family who believed you got to stand for something or
you'll fall for anything. So even right now, you know,
(10:28):
with how you look at me, with how you see me,
which I think is so humbling and so inspiring and
exactly my point right to exist inside of the truth
and to have the audacity to be authentic and to
speak truth always, no matter how uncomfortable it may be
(10:55):
to some of the people around you. Sometimes is great,
and sometimes it's that so great, you know, sometimes there
are consequences that come with that, as you know. So
I'm grateful that my work and my efforts and my
(11:20):
intentions are being seen and experienced once again in the
spirit in which I am carrying them.
Speaker 7 (11:35):
I got to go all the way back to the origin,
because when I look at the courage it took at
a very young age Patrick to be open, you know,
to battle addiction bipolar disorder rehabit eighteen. Yeah, can you
take us back to how that moment in your life
and frankly, how formative it was for you sitting here today.
Speaker 6 (11:56):
Well, of course, in my family.
Speaker 10 (11:58):
Even though we're big social justice like everyone else, we
felt really imprisoned by the shame and stigma of mental
health and addiction issues.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
We wouldn't talk about them, even though whereas I.
Speaker 10 (12:10):
Said, we're very progressive in all the rest, because the
power of.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
Shame and stigma are so strong.
Speaker 10 (12:17):
I did not become a leader as some profile and
courage that my uncle wrote about profiles and courage. I
reacted to a situation where the fellow that I had
been in drug rehab with had sold his story of
being in rehab with the Kennedy to the National Enquirer,
And so I had to see my own face on
(12:38):
the cover of the National Choir with the headlines Patrick
Kennedy drug addict and this is my going into my
second term in public office. Of course I thought my
political career was over. This was back in nineteen ninety
one when these were really big issues. Of Course, today
nothing knocks you out of the box because everything's fair game.
But my constituents was really something. They really didn't like
(13:02):
what had happened to me, and so they I was
re elected. When I got to Washington, I could sponsor
all this mental health legislation, including the one that I
kind of became known for, which is the Mental Health
Parody and Addiction Equedact. And I was the first name
on that bill. I was the youngest member of Congress
(13:24):
from the smallest state in the country, and yet I
got to put my name number one on a bill
that simply said that we had to treat the brain
like any other organ of the body and have insurance
coverage cover all the illnesses. Nobody wanted to be champion
of the And if you had a bill with the
title bill had the words mental in it and addiction,
(13:46):
I mean what politician wants to be the primary sponsor that?
Because of course the next question is, well, do you
have a mental health issue or an addiction issue? And
no one wants to answer that because of course we
all do, and so they don't want to go down
that rabbit hole. But for me, since this guy kind
of rated on me, I was thrown out there and
it ended up being one of the greatest things that
(14:06):
ever happened in my life.
Speaker 6 (14:08):
So God works in mysterious ways.
Speaker 7 (14:11):
Patrick, You've always been open on mental health issues, You've
talked about it, but the diagnosis of bipolar came later,
and a lot of people struggle without understanding diagnosis. So
can you help us understand a little bit of what
was your own personal journey to understand what you were
experiencing with the lens that that might help some of
the listeners who are searching on their own journey.
Speaker 10 (14:30):
Well, you know, bipolar was used to be known as
manic depression, so I experienced a lot of mania and
part of the reason I was elected at twenty one
to the state legislature and then elected to Congress at
twenty seven. You'd sell, well, what is anyone thinking doing that?
But I, of course I had this fueled by the
(14:52):
fact that my family did big things, So of course
part of me thought, well, I can do big things.
But you know, it was definitely over my ski and
so there was that. And then self medicating with alcohol
and drugs was a way I used to manage those symptoms. Ironically,
I had the best psychiatrists in the world, but they
(15:12):
didn't often get the training and addiction I have just
celebrated my fourteenth year of continuous sobriety. I didn't get
sober until I was forty two. I was in and
out of hospitals throughout my time in Congress, and most
of them were obviously all anonymous. I made a big point,
(15:33):
even though I'm the champion of anti stigma, to not
say that I'm going in there because I still felt
the stigma. It's still very alive and well. So I
went to the Mayo Clinic rather than Hazelton for my
drug treatment because I thought if I went to the
Mayo Clinic, people might think I had a real illness,
(15:56):
you know, And that's when the height of my work
on parody. So this is very still very stigmatized, and
you know the best way to change that is to
normalize mental health as part of overall health.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Coming up, Jamel Hill takes on President Trump and refuses
to back down. Subscribe and share. You won't want to
miss this.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Now back to my legacy.
Speaker 7 (16:30):
You talk about courage, and I want to reflect on
what that courage has meant because you know, very famously
in twenty eighteen, you called out President Trump's racism, You
called out Jerry Jones his stance on players taking a knee,
and that ultimately costs you your job. You know that
that's courage. And so when you talk about courage, when
(16:51):
you reflect back on that time, what did that teach
you about your voice? What does that teach you about
your values? And frankly, what did it teach you about
your willingness to risk at all for what you believe in?
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Well, I'm sure a lot of people who have been
in far more dangerous positions than that one, especially as
you know, with you all being so intimately acquainted with
the civil rights movement, is that you don't know if
you're gonna meet the moment until the moment find you.
You have no idea. So if you would have asked
me before that actually happened, Hey, if this was the scenario,
(17:21):
what would you do? You think you know what you
would do, You think you know how you might respond,
but you don't really actually know till you're right there
in the fire. And so all of the decisions that
I made as the you know, White House called for
me to be fired, as you know, Donald Trump singled
me out on social media as that was happening. I mean,
I'm making mental decisions in real time, and I had
(17:45):
to sort of have a few moments with myself and
saying like, Okay, if this results in you being fired,
like right in this moment, what are you gonna do?
Or if they put it on the table, hey, either
apologize to the president or you're gonna have to leave here.
Speaker 10 (18:01):
What are you gonna do?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
And I every instinct and every cell in my body
was like, if they asked me to apologize to the president,
I'm not gonna do it. And I made that clear
very early. I'm never apologizing to him. I said what
I said, and we just got to live with that.
The other part of it, too, is like knowing that, hey,
if this is the end of the road right here.
You know, I didn't leave ESPN until a year later,
(18:26):
and I'd left on my own terms, and if at
the moment they had to make a business decision, I
just I would have lived with it. I mean, it
wouldn't feel good, especially given all the work that I
put in to get to that point. And there's not
many people who get the opportunity to anchor the six
o'clock Sports Center, one of the sort of treasured time
(18:48):
slots at ESPN. But if that was the result, that
was the result. And at you know, when stuff like
this happens, where your integrity and your character is questioned,
you have to be able to live with yourself. And
I would not have been able to live with myself
had I capitulated in a way that I think would
(19:08):
not have spoke to who authentically I am. So it
was a lot of lessons that I've found out in
real time and just because the situation was there, And
I'm thankful for that, because when similar situations, maybe not
always involving the President of the United States, but when
(19:28):
other tests of your character, your integrity, when those things happen,
it's muscle memory. Now you're confident because you've already done it.
And I've done it at a level that most people
don't get to do it at. And so when I'm
in meetings or in determining business relationships and things pop
(19:49):
up where you have to stand on something, I'm so
much more comfortable doing that because I've already done it before.
It's very similar to an athlete. I mean, I'm sure
Michael Jordan missed a lot of game winning shots before
he actually made him, and when he finally made one,
it became muscle memory, and then after that that dude
was never losing, So I sort of approach it with
(20:11):
the mentality that an athlete might.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
So even before that happened. Let's also go back to
your beginning days of ESPN, because, as you mentioned earlier,
you found yourself in rooms where you were, you know,
most times, one, if not the only woman, you know,
certainly probably the only black woman. So if we're talking
about legacy on this show, you know, and you at
(20:36):
ESPN early two thousands, you know that legacy is there.
But you said about that time that it is both
isolating and yet motivating. Can you share with our listeners
a little bit by what you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So the isolating part is when I was a sports
columnist at the Orlando Sentinel. This would have been in
two thousand and five and most of two thousand and six,
I was the only black female sports columnist at a
daily newspaper in North America. And notice I didn't just
say America, right, So that's one out of four hundred
(21:10):
and five newspapers, And that is an embarrassing statistic for
the profession of journalism, and a lot of people might've
thought that that would have given me some sense of accomplishment.
It did not.
Speaker 10 (21:24):
It.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
What it was communicating to me, and even worse, communicating
to other women who might wanna get in the business,
is that your voices aren't necessary nor are they valued.
And so that's the isolating part, and you know it
also comes with a lot of scrutiny because you're the
only one and a lot of black people have been
in this uh situation and in all industries. Is that
(21:48):
when you're the only one, you then become the test case, right,
So you have to carry yourself a certain way because
you are living with the burden of if I mess up,
no one else is coming after me. Black people aren't perfect, right,
So it's like, if I make some junior mistakes or whatever,
if that's the reason why you won't see value in
(22:11):
black women having voices in the sports space, then that
to me reflects more on you than it does on me.
So you're carrying all of this, but at the same time,
you know, getting to ESPN, a place that is considered
to be for our profession at the very top, if
you're in sports media, being the most powerful sports media
company in America, then you know there's something to be
(22:35):
celebrated by being able to advance and take that step
and realize that all the hard work has brought you
to this place and brought you to this sense of elevation.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
But it's always to.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Me about who is able to come behind you. As
a result, now, UESPN is in a very different position
because they can hire whoever they want, and you look
at their team picture and it's very diverse because they
have a lot of women. And even before I got there,
Robin Roberts was the one who set the table, you know,
and so they've always had a steady pipeline of women
(23:12):
of color and putting them in certain positions. Where I
was a little bit different is that they were traditional anchors,
and I was one of the few that were able
to develop a foot hole and an imprint at ESPN
by giving my opinion, by creating conversation based off my
perspective and my experience that I had as a sports
(23:35):
journalist over the course of many years. So I was
very thrilled to be there, but I also was fully
aware that if I walk into one more room and
I'm the only one in there, that's not a good room.
It's like I've never been one of those people. And there,
unfortunately are some people of color who are like this
(23:56):
that they do want to be the only one in
the room. I don't want to be the only one
in the room because I don't know everything. I don't
represent the entire totality of women of black women. I
do not do that. And so it's important that we
all you know, when we go in these rooms, that
is not just about getting in the room. It's about
getting in the room and kind of breaking it up
(24:17):
and opening the door even wider so that more of us.
So it's a you know, a flood of us coming in.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
I loved when Kamala Harris said upon accepting the vice presidency,
I might be the first, but I won't be the last.
I love that sentiment. And so here you are at
you know, ESPN, you know, seemingly from the outside, you know,
riding on top of the world. Then you had this
(24:44):
unfair attack and this fall from where you had worked
so hard to be. But throughout all of that Ian
was there, and he you know, walked with you through
that storm and was always at your side. So my
question is you Ian, And particularly for couples that are
listening right now and if they're going through the storm,
(25:06):
they're watching someone that they love go through the storm.
What advice would you have for couples walking that path.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I believe communication is the key, you know, constant communication.
When Jamel had when she was going through her storm,
really first and foremost, I wanted to make sure that
I was there and she felt my presence and she
knew that she wasn't alone. We had a lot of
good times and that was probably the most challenging part
(25:35):
of our relationship up up to that point. So my
biggest thing was making sure that she didn't feel alone,
making sure that she felt my presence and we were
going to get through this together. And naturally, I'm a fixer,
so sometimes I have to dial that back because sometimes
she may just want to vent and she just needs
a listening ear versus you know, solution after solution. But
(25:59):
my goal was to remain positive throughout the entire situation
because I knew something good would come from it, and
a lot of things came from it that were good
on a positive note. So just positivity and communication would
be my advice to any couples going through any type
of turmoil.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, and remember when I got suspended. So I had
a two week suspension. I think I spent the first
week with you, right, So I and you know that
to me said a lot about our relationship. Is that
My immediate instinct after I got suspended was I need
to hop on the plane and I need to be
with him, right because I knew that the comfort I
(26:39):
was looking for, I knew the solace I was looking for.
I knew all of that could be found in him.
And you know that spoke volumes about our you know, relationship,
and I know it probably wasn't the easiest from you
in the sense of that. You know, here you have
me being discussed on all these news channels, and you
know he's all so in the corporate world, so you
(27:02):
have colleagues that are watching this.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Well, the challenge for me was, you know, under normal circumstances,
if I was dating a regular woman, if she got
into an issue with someone at work, I would just
go up there and have a conversation with that guy.
But with it being the President of the United States,
so it was a little handcom.
Speaker 6 (27:18):
So it was a little challenging for me.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
So, and that's another thing, you know, we have fun,
So making her laugh and just making.
Speaker 6 (27:24):
Her feel comfortable.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Thank you for joining us for the best of my legacy.
New episodes drop every Tuesday. Don't forget to subscribe so
you never miss a moment.
Hosts And Creators
Craig Kielburger
Marc Kielburger
Martin Luther King III
Arndrea Waters King
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