March 3, 2025 • 51 mins
Billy Porter has spent his life breaking barriers—but behind the boldness, the fashion, and the history-making moments is a journey of deep resilience, healing, and the power of unconditional love.
On My Legacy, hosts Martin Luther King III, Arndrea Waters King, Marc Kielburger, and Craig Kielburger sit down with Billy and his younger sister, Mary Martha Ford, for a deeply personal conversation about identity, family, and finding the courage to live authentically.
Billy opens up about his early years in Pittsburgh, the challenges of growing up queer in a religious community, and the angels who helped him dream beyond his circumstances. He reflects on the moment he chose himself—refusing to shrink to fit others' expectations—and how that decision shaped his career and his sense of purpose.
Mary Martha shares her own story of strength, revealing the depth of their unbreakable bond, from childhood Christmases to the moment Billy became her caregiver during a life-threatening health crisis.
Together, through laughter and unfiltered vulnerability, they explore what it means to love without conditions, support each other through life's hardest moments, and standing tall in who you are.
Don’t miss this extraordinary episode of My Legacy.
Creator and Executive Producer: Suzanne Hayward
Co-Executive Producer: Lisa Lisle
Editor Duane Fogwell
Post-production producer Tina Pittaway
A/V by Garcia Creative
Produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and Executive Producer Gabrielle Collins.
Like our podcast? Visit http://youtube.com/@mylegacymovement to see full episodes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
We're ten years apart, and she's been my best friend since.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
She was an avy.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I was queer very early, and that came with a
lot of pushback from our community. You know, when it
was time to make the unconditional love choice. She and
my mother both made that choice in the faith of
an entire community and infrastructure, telling them both that they
(00:35):
were going to burn in hell for doing so.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Hello Loves, I'm Andrea Waters King and that was a
trailblazing entertainer, actor, singer, styl hun the Emmy, Tony and
Grammy winning Billy Porter. Always his authentic self, Billy shared
his journey to overcome immense trauma to break down barriers.
Our conversation with Billy is a powerful of courage, finding self, love,
(01:03):
and standing boldly in your truth.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Billy is joined by his youngest sister.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Mary Martha Ford, who has been a steady source of
strength and inspiration throughout his life. Of course, there were
tears and laughter as they share what makes their brother
sister Bond unshakable.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Let's jump in.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
Well, welcome to my legacy. We're here with Billy Porter.
His extraordinary life story is one of courage, resilience, and authenticity.
And we hope it will inspire you to create a
living legacy and lead a more fulfilled life. On this podcast,
we don't just hear from iconic figures. We also connect
with the people who know them best to give us
deeper understanding of the challenges and the triumphs that have
(01:49):
shaped their legacy. Joining Billy today is his sister, Mary
Martha Ford, whose love and support have been central to
his remarkable journey. Billy and Mary Martha, what rivilege it
is to be with you, and thank you for being here.
And so, Billy, we got to start off by asking
you to introduce Mary Martha and sharing what makes her
(02:09):
such an important person in your life.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Okay, well, Mary Martha Elizabeth Ford is my baby sister.
We're ten years apart, and she's been my best friend
since she was an baby. It's like I couldn't wait
till she was old enough so we could like hang out.
I was like, get your childhood all over with please,
(02:35):
so we can hang out. You know, I call her
the rock star because you know, she turned she has
turned a very.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Complicated life into something great for herself and everyone around her.
And I'm just you know, honored to call her my
rock star sister.
Speaker 6 (03:07):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
It's beautiful. I love that I'm here with my brother.
I just I've got goosebumps or as you would say,
god bumps listening.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
To that one.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
I love it, Billy. So we're talking about legacy, and
can you take us way back to Pittsburgh. Can you
tell us a little bit about your childhood and maybe
share a story that really helps to shine a light
on what life was like for you growing up in
your younger years.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
It was tough, you know, it was traumatizing very often,
and there was a lot of love as well. And
I had a lot of angels in my life who
were and camped around me, who saw me in ways
(03:58):
that sometimes my immediate family, my immediate sort of community
didn't understand. And these people were able to just kind
of guide me in the right directions so that I
could dream and accomplish beyond my circumstance.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
A music teacher identified that I could thing, and from
that point on, you know, in the fifth grade, and
from that point on, the agels in my life stepped
in and made sure that I, you know, that I
(04:47):
was able to, like I said, dream and accomplish beyond
my circumstance.
Speaker 7 (04:54):
Mary Martha, I've got a question for you, Yes, being
ten years younger, what was your DWN dynamic like when Billy,
you know, kind of growing up and how has it evolved?
Speaker 6 (05:07):
Hows it evolved?
Speaker 8 (05:08):
So I don't remember him until my first memory was
maybe when we were five, five or six, and it
was Christmas morning. That's one of my first memories, Christmas
morning and him waking me up and taking me like
I rode his back into the living room, and there
(05:29):
were gifts, and there were gifts that he bought me
with his own money because he had a job working
at kenny Wood, which was Kennywood Park, which was our
amusement park. I just remember Billy being kind and my friend,
someone that I looked up to, and he was always singing,
(05:50):
and so we were always everywhere where he was singing
and performing. My mom and I would be there all
of the time. I should have been at home on
a school night, but I was in the theater wherever
he was. That's where we were, and so that's how
I ended up catching the theater bug as well. How
(06:11):
has it evolved? It has evolved from being I don't know,
just brother and sister to best friends, and so I
can call him about anything. We talk every morning, you know,
there's you know, just to check in how you doing.
I'm doing all right, what you're doing today, And I'm
very grateful for that. I recognize that the relationship as
(06:34):
siblings that he and I have is not one that
lots of people can say that they have with their siblings,
and so it's something that I used to take for granted,
which I don't take for granted anymore because now I
recognize how true and precious it is.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
What's so fascinating to me about that story, though, is
I can just imagine, see if you were in fifth
grade and then Billy is about ten years older than you, like.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
You.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
You all said a little bit earlier that there's a
lot of trauma kind of growing up. But here this
to me, says it all about your heart, about the
fact of being an entertainer.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
You you you worked.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Just make sure I heard the story correctly, and then
make sure that you that your sister had a good Christmas,
your baby sister. It's almost like that you know that protection,
but not only that, it seemed like there was so
much joy, you got as much joy that Christmas morning.
I just thought that that's such a beaut that I
actually almost bought tears to my eyes just I can
(07:42):
kind of see you all, you know, going through that,
and I think it's so extraordinary, and I'm so I'm
also curious, then, Billy, how has your sister been a
source of strength for you throughout your lives growing up?
Speaker 6 (08:01):
Don't cry?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
She you know, she was younger than me, and I
was queer very early.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
In our community. That came with a lot of pushback
from our community and our family, and you know, when
it was time to make the unconditional love choice, she
and my mother both made that choice in the faith
(08:37):
of an entire community and infrastructure, telling them both that
they were going to burn in hell for doing so.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Mary Martha was the first, you know, person that.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I came out to in my family, even before you know,
when she was sixteen.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, before my mother.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Well, no, I told my mother, but my mother wasn't
able to receive it for a while.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
So my sister was able to receive it.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
At such a young age, and she was so present
in the moment for me and so evolved, you know,
And it was something that I had worked on trying
to give her, you know, trying to actually be the
(09:30):
same kind of angel for her that I had experienced
for myself, to show her that there were spaces outside
of our immediate infrastructure. There were people outside of.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Our status quo.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
And experiences outside of that.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
That were just as important.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
And more important than the religious dogma that you know,
was trying to sort of be ingrained in us. There
were other options, and I was sort of trying to
show her those other options. And I didn't realize that
(10:21):
they had taken hold until I came out to her
at sixteen.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
They had already taken hold.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
All of those things that I was trying to instill
had already taken hold.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
And it was you know, it was magical. It was emotional,
and it was.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Gratifying and spiritual and all those things.
Speaker 9 (10:41):
Well, Billy and Mary Martha, we admire your tenacity, your love,
your compassion towards each other. I also want to turn
to your amazing career, Billy. Your career has been a
masterclass and breaking barriers and living authentically. What drives you
to keep using your voice to create such substantive change
as you do.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Artists have the power to reach inside of a human
being and transform them from the inside out.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Art has the power to heal all kinds of traumas.
My soul was saved because of the arts.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
If I didn't have the arts, I don't think I
would be alive right now.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Maybe, And I know.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
That when I'm at my lowest, for as long as
I can remember, it's my art that gets me out
of bed in the morning. And there was also growing up,
no representation, really, no mainstream crossover rotat representation of somebody
(12:03):
who looked like me, who stood at that intersection of blackness,
queerness and spirituality. And the ones who did were ignored, dismissed,
passed over, erased. And so how I know what it
(12:27):
felt like to be invisible for over half my life.
And the only reason why I'm not invisible is because
I chose myself.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I chose my authenticity.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
I chose to have the audacity to actually choose myself,
choose my authenticity and then stand on that.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Did you do that deliberately or do you think that
choice was made for you?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
No?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
No, Because for the first part of my life and
my career, I was trying to fit in so I
could eat. I wasn't lying, you know, but it was
the don't act, don't tell era of the world. And
so I wasn't telling. I wasn't lying, but I wasn't telling,
(13:21):
And the omission of not telling is ultimately a lie,
and that binds you as well, you know. And so
I had the gift of failing at somebody else and
particularly in the music industry in the nineties, and I
(13:43):
just vowed to myself that I would never show up
as somebody else again, and whatever that meant for my
life and career is whatever it means.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
And I still say that today.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
You know, I grew up in a family who believed
to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So even right now, you know, with how you look
at me, with how you see me, which I think
is so humbling and so inspiring and exactly my point.
Right to exist inside of the truth.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
And to have the audacity to be authentic and to
speak truth always, no matter how uncomfortable it may be
to some of the people around you.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Sometimes is great, and sometimes it's that so great, you know,
sometimes there are consequences that come with that, as you know.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
So I'm grateful that my work and my efforts and
my intentions are being seen and experienced once again in
the spirit in which I am sharing them.
Speaker 9 (15:08):
Billy, We're also glad that you've chosen that authenticity, and
I just want to say thank you for your eloquence.
Mary Morton went to want to ask you a quick
question about a moment that Billy's love and support made
a difference in your life.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
Oh, his love.
Speaker 8 (15:27):
What people don't know is just how kind, like really
genuinely kind Billy is. And about fourteen years ago, I
had a medical scare where I had to have brain
surgery and I was going to be down for the
count for.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
At least six weeks.
Speaker 8 (15:46):
And Billy was working on a show in New York
and the show ended on a Sunday. He got in
the car on Monday, drove home to Pittsburgh. I had
surgery on a Tuesday, and then he stayed with me
for six weeks and he took excellent care of me.
Speaker 6 (16:04):
So he's a great caregiver. He's a good chef too.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
People don't know that he likes That's the thing.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
That's the thing that I would say, you know, COVID
Lockdown really showed me that cooking is something that soothes me.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
And something that's really healing to me. And it's a
love language for me.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
You know, I'm not like a big gift giver and
I'm not like I'm not like that, but I love
to show love.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Through cooking. And if I cook for you, I love you.
I don't cook for I don't generally cook for people
who I don't like or care about.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Do you have a specially he just likes to cook anything, anything,
And he can take anything that you know, remnants of
stuff in the refrigerator and he'll come up with something
and it bangs. That's how I know, Mary Martha, that's
a good cook. That's always my my test. I can
like I can follow a great recipe you know, or
(17:11):
something that's been passed down, and I think I'm a
pretty good cook.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yes you are.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
My sisters, they go into to me a true like
like they can go into the refrigerator and then they
can see what's there and then make a recipe and
then make it taste good. That that always is my
bench smart for Yeah, can see there you go, Okay,
then you use that that passes that passed the test.
Speaker 5 (17:37):
Grabber refill on your coffee or tea because you won't
want to miss the rest of this conversation, we'll be
right back.
Speaker 7 (18:05):
Welcome back to my legacy, Billy. Which of your projects
has had the greatest impact on your personal growth and
perspective as an artist?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
There's not one, but I will say there's a trilogy.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
The first is Tony Kushner's Angels in America, which do
you know that piece?
Speaker 5 (18:29):
Of course?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, so that was the first time.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
You know, Jeffrey Wright was the original belize in that
back in ninety four, and I went to see that
on Broadway by myself, and that was a transformative moment
because I didn't understand what I was missing, you know,
speaking of representation again, you know, I didn't know that
I was missing seeing a black queer character who was
(18:58):
not the butt of the joke, who was not the
one to be reviled or murdered, but who was the moral.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Depth and heart of this piece.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
That was very dark and very heavy and very political,
and you know, with a bunch of white people swirling
around him, he was the one that held it all
together emotionally and spiritually. And so that changed everything because
up until then my trajectory was not what I wanted
(19:38):
it to be. And then kinky Boots, which was the
original dream coming true. You know, the creation of an
iconic character in the canon of.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
The Broadway musical that was me, that was developed.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
And written around my skill set that I won the
Tony and Grammy for.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
That was, you know. And inside of that, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
My character, who's a drag queen, drag artist, you know,
has a very not great relationship with his father, and
he actively forgives him in the story. And my relationship
with both of my fathers was tenuous at best, and
(20:34):
I had a lot of forgiving to do. And so
the act of forgiving, even a fictional character eight shows
a week for three years, is powerful because our bodies
actually don't know the difference. That's the hard part about
being an actor and a performer. Our bodies don't know
(20:55):
the difference when we're faking it, but our bodies, in
our nervous system, still thinks it's this. We have to
do the work to sort of untangle that emotionally and
spiritually for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
The third pieces pose because the character of Pretel, the
community that it's dealing with, the timeframe that it exists in,
all of those things.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Are part of what it feels like as an artist
to be in the center of your purpose, calling and ministry.
Those three pieces were a culmination of really really hard
and focused work and choices that I had made for
(21:47):
two decades, you know, to get there.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You know, I walked away from the status quo. I
took the road.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Less traveled because I knew that if I was going
to continue down the trajectory that I was on, I would.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Never be happy.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
And it's so interesting because with that comes a lot
of I mean there, you know, there's a reason why
the road less traveled can be lonely sometime. So you know,
on the end, it seems like, oh, this is you know,
such a it's a lot of celebrations, but what people
don't really see and understand is all the sacrifices I
think that goes into that, not only when you're doing it,
(22:31):
but I'm sure you know even now. And one of
the things that I've been so curious about is that
you've been a shining beacon for so many young people
struggling right to embrace who they are. But being one
of the first black queer men to live I mean
just so boldly and particularly in the spotlight, I know
(22:54):
it comes with intense pressure.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
We all we know.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
About the pressure that people don't see. Can you can
you just share an experience or what that has been
like for you.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
I want to tell the truth, yep. And I've been
trying to find ways to tell my truth with an
eye towards the compassionate and the positive. You know, the
most difficult thing for me is being put out by
your own You know, I'm already black, I'm a man,
(23:31):
I'm black first. But for some reason, inside of this
queer conversation, this queerness conversation, and this intersection with the
black community, it.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Says, if queerness.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Doesn't exist, it is a very we have a very
homophobic community.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
And we've grown and I want to say that too,
we've grown there. There has been moved and I'm grateful
for that because I've seen it, because I'm inside of it,
so I've seen it and I am grateful for that.
But I find that that is the hardest thing for
me on a consistent basis, even with the growth, I'm
(24:18):
hit in the face with it at times.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
When I've let my guard down. One of those moments
because you asked for a specific moment. One of those
moments recently was this past June when I was in
DC and I was performing at I was headlining at
Gay Pride, and then I was invited to the White
(24:45):
House that Monday morning for a June teenth summit, where
I sat on the dais with lots of very smart,
intellectual people and we talked about, you know, the work
that needs to be done, and how are we gonna
(25:07):
transform what we're going through right now and all of that.
And then I went to the concert on the White
House lawn and just so happened to be sitting, happened
to be placed on the front row next to the
second Gentleman, who was next to the Vice President, who
(25:29):
was next to the president.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
And when they came in, I greeted them all.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Now, I kissed the hand of President Biden, I kissed
the hand of Vice President Harris. I gave you know,
the second gentleman a big hug. And the next morning
they ran a photo of me. Somebody ran a photo
(25:57):
of me kissing the hand of Joe Biden next to.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
A drawing of a slave kissing President Lincoln's hand. The
reason why we can't get anywhere.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And every time there's forward motion and progressive motion, but
the pendulum swings so.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Far back is because inside of our own communities.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
We're doing that. We're not supporting each other. You know,
it's like, so what are you saying? Once again, what
are you saying? Because tell the truth, you actually aren't mad.
It doesn't make sense that you would be mad that
(26:56):
I'm kissing President Biden's hand next to this, this this
parallel that you're trying to draw, because that drawing was
done in the moment, right, not with three hundred years
of history or however long it was.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
It wasn't done with the history behind it, right. So
that person was happy.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
That slave was happy that he was emancipated, and he
was literally simply thinking the man who emancipated him. We
pulled Joe Biden out of retirement to come and try
to save democracy, which he and his administration did, and
I'm grateful for that. Nobody's perfect, nobody does everything right.
(27:46):
You know, we're not going to agree with everybody on everything.
But for me, I've been in this long enough to
know what the motivation is for real, and the motivation
is that I am a black faggot.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
And I use the word on purpose because that's how
violent these responses are to me simply being myself. Right,
I'm in a sparkly caftan on the front row.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I'm embarrassing to the black community, not everybody. Let me
be clear, how dare I have the audacity to be
on the front row, out loud, proud in address.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
How dare I?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Is it more anger or hurt? I don't know for you,
like when you yes for you, because yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
It's both. It's all of the above, you know, because
I'm out here trying to help everybody. I'm black first, y'all.
Whether y'all want to acknowledge that or not.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
People see me as black first, babies, you know, even
with the queer community. I've had to start going to things.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
And being like, y'all know, I'm black first, though, right,
I've stand at this intersection, but I'm black first, and
clearly I have to remind you all of that. So
I'm gonna start reminding y'all.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Well, Mary Martha as a black woman, because that's you know,
we talk about that a lot, you know, you know,
being black and being a woman and kind of all
that that that that that brings.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
I'm black, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
All of it.
Speaker 8 (29:38):
I'm black first, woman second, and people, but people put
it together black woman, and then that has its own,
its own.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Context.
Speaker 8 (29:50):
For some people, it's not. It's not separate. But I'm
I'm at a lot of intersections myself.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Mary Martha.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
Can I ask you a question, And I asked this
gingerly and let me acknowledge the fact that I'm not black,
and so I asked this seeking to listen and learn.
You have witnessed your brother go through challenges but also
be a hero for so many in black community, but
just in the community large. When you look at him,
(30:18):
you have seen him at the most challenged points of
his life, and you've seen in the most extraordinary points
of his life. What are you most proud of? As
his sister who knows him on an intimate and a
personal level in a way that we never will. But
you have seen the struggles and you've seen the triumphs.
Speaker 8 (30:36):
Yes, well the highs. The highs in this business can
be high and the lows can be really low. And
what I'm most proud of is how he continues to
get up every day and to show up for his life.
That's what I'm most proud of because that is something
(30:57):
that I strive for. I can look to him and
I say, he gets up every day and he is
showing up for his life. I too can get up
every day and show up for my life. It doesn't
matter what people say, even though you know you're human.
And so yes, sometimes the things that people that people
(31:18):
may say or miscategorize you as of course, that's going
to bother you. But he keeps getting up and moving
through it. And that's what's very inspiring.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Did that kind of help you when you were talking
about having brain surgery and oh yeah, like was that
also something that helped.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
You get Yes?
Speaker 8 (31:41):
Absolutely, absolutely that and that and our mother, our mom
was born with a neurological condition very similar to cerebral palsy,
and she got up every day and showed up for
her life.
Speaker 6 (31:56):
And so that was also the blueprint for.
Speaker 8 (31:59):
The both of us so that we can continue to
be the people that we are today.
Speaker 9 (32:05):
Billy, you've been open about the profound pain you've worked
through in trauma therapy. Where was wondering if you could
tell us a little bit about that and perhaps some
of the meaningful breakthroughs you've had along the way.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
The mental health profession and what they have developed over
the years to sort of help people heal themselves, heal trauma,
all of those things. It's extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
And I began a very tailored process to my specific
trauma in very specific trauma therapy during COVID.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
In a way that you mean, you know, I keep
saying the world shut down so that I could address
my trauma for real, you know. And the thing I
learned the most that I still deal with is.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
The self compassion component that all of us have to learn.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
About for ourselves and for our mental health, self care
and boundaries.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
The fact that I didn't even know what that was.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I didn't know what a boundary was, and so I
kept finding myself in relationships, particularly.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Romantic relationships with no boundaries.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Those are the two biggest healing components that I have
taken away from that, you know, in the practice, in
the everyday practice.
Speaker 9 (33:53):
And Mary Martha witnessing billity confronts and to start to
heal from such deep trauma must be quite a powerful experience.
What changes have you seen in him since he's begun
his own journey of trauma healing.
Speaker 6 (34:06):
The self compassion, seeing him learning how to say no.
Speaker 8 (34:13):
Billy is such a giver and always wanted to see
everyone win, but sometimes.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
You know when we do that to what end, at
what cost?
Speaker 8 (34:22):
And so seeing him being able to say to say
no and to take care of himself.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
You're listening to my legacy. More of this inspiring and
powerful conversation after the break, Welcome back to my Legacy.
(35:10):
We have Billy Porter with us, who is always his
authentic self, along with his writer die, his sister Mary Martha. Billy,
you are on the brink of egot status, an elite
group of artists who have won the Emmy, the Grammy,
the Oscar, and the Tony. You've already run three of those.
We have no doubt the Oscar is in your future.
(35:30):
And when you were honored at the most recent Tony Awards,
oh my god, it was amazing to watch you dedicated
it to your mother, of course, who of course passed
away shortly there before. Can you share with us a
little about your incredible mother and the greatest lesson that
she passed to you.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Well, like Mary Martha said, you know, she was born
with a condition that would have put anybody else in
the grave early.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
She wasn't, you know, supposed to be able to probably
not live past thirty, probably not be able to take
care of herself all of those things, all of that negative,
naysaying stuff, and she found a way to She chose
to get up every day and not take.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Those predictions to heart.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
She was also a very religious woman who I watched
choose an expansion of her mind inside of the doctrines
(37:05):
of religiosity to find the space to love her gay
son unconditionally. Anyway, she was the personification of what true
Christianity means. You know, I'm just forever grateful. You know,
(37:30):
everybody doesn't get that. And it wasn't immediate. You know,
we had things to work through, and she did the work.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
She did the work in a profound, profound way. Yeah,
we miss her a lot.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
And you know, my mom passed away five years ago,
and thank you, and I'm sorry for you, Oswals.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
It is.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
I I I wish I could say it gets e
it gets easier, and even you know, just you know,
there are times when I still look for her. I
still have her number, you know, on my phone, and
something happens. One of the first things you I still
wanna do is call my mom. And it sometimes it
(38:31):
it it still hits me, and it particulars around the
holidays even you know, just the other the other day,
you know, something came on and I just you know,
said and and had a good cry. Well, first of all,
May Angelou said that when your mom is gone, no
matter what your relationship is with her, one of the
(38:54):
things that is that you will miss her more than
you know. And I was incredibly close to my mom
and still miss her more more than I know. And
you all, there's something that you feel untethered, Yes, and
(39:14):
especially when someone is such a giver.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
Like my mom just seems like your mom was.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
And so, you know, we just I hope that both
of you all know that there are so many people
around this this nation and the world that are holding
you as you're walking through this journey. You all think
you all are not alone.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
That's appreciated. Thank you, Mary Martha.
Speaker 7 (39:44):
You've shared that grief is a journey. What have you
learned about, you know, healing and resilience.
Speaker 8 (39:51):
I'm still learning. It's a daily it's a daily practice.
I get up and I say, okay, so what's going
to happen today?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Will it be? Will it be?
Speaker 8 (40:01):
Looking at I don't know, a cherry pie in the
grocery store that gets me to remembering my mom and
I burst out in tears and run out.
Speaker 6 (40:11):
I'm learning just to take it one day at a time.
That's what I'm doing.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
I always said, I it's so wonderful to give people
space and grace.
Speaker 8 (40:20):
Space and grace, and one of the things that it's
so hard to do is to give yourself the space
and grace. It's very easy to give it to other people,
but what about yourself. That's where that self compassion, that
self compassion comes in. But one thing that I did
learn and that I've been working on is called the rose,
(40:41):
the thorn, and the bud. And this is what I've
been working through with my grief, is that I picked
something great that has happened. Then I may say something
that's been on that maybe has gotten on my nerves,
and then something that I can look forward to. And
so that's what I do practice on a daily is
my rose, thorn, and bud.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
We used to do that family dinners, yep, every every
night with our daughter Yolanda, like Okay, what is your
what is the thorn for the day, and what.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
Is the roles? What is what is the gift?
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Yes to?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
So that so we do that we need to get
back to doing that.
Speaker 6 (41:16):
We have to do that with our with our daughter.
Speaker 7 (41:19):
Yeah yeah, Billy uh you your life's work has been
about creating change through art. What's one piece of advice
you'd give someone looking to make a difference in their
own unique way.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
My advice would be that you have to.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Understand who you are, understand what the calling and the
purpose is, and just get up and put one foot
in front of the other and do it every day.
Tell the truth, you know, and like I said earlier,
the truth is not always easy. You know, as we've
seen over the last decade, the truth is under attack.
(42:01):
You know, a lot of people don't want to hear
the truth. A lot of people don't want the truth
because the truth can be horrifying sometimes and the truth
will set you free. And a lot of people don't
want to be set free.
Speaker 6 (42:17):
They say they do, but they don't want it.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
That was what was so interesting about trauma therapy, you know,
because trauma therapy is about the truth.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
And I wanted to and I want to be set free.
And then you start the process and you're.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Like, oh, there's some days you don't want to go back.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, in some days that the truth is not, you know,
not today, not today.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
You're listening to my legacy.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
I'm curious too, did you all? Did you.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Because you said that you started trauma therapy during during
COVID SO twenty twenty one. By this time you were
already a very well known and accomplished individual. You could
have just continue, not continue, but to hide behind you
know what? Was there anything in particular that made you decide, okay,
you know this is the time, this is the moment.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I was in a very toxic marriage. That was a
pattern that I couldn't seem to break. That was the
initial impulse.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
It's like I got to do better for myself, and
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
How to do that. I don't think I've tried. I
know what the pattern is. I thought I broke sad pattern,
and ultimately I haven't.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
So I may need help.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Because I don't want to stay in this pattern. You know,
I don't want to keep doing it. The definition of
crazy is doing the same thing and expecting it.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
I don't want.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
I you know, I have too much to do on
this planet to be bound by stupid stuff, or not
stupid stuff, just the same stuff. Sorry, I don't mean
to diminish my own self. That's the self compassion part.
Like I have to stop talking about that.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
It actually is a sorry and that's good.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
See and I love it. There you go.
Speaker 6 (44:57):
That's what it is.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Practicing it in the moment, Yes, exactly, And that's true
compassion for yourself. Not expecting the perfection, right, but catching
yourself and acknowledging yes, And that in and of itself
takes courage. You know, so many of us don't want
(45:18):
to acknowledge, you know, and and and so to catch
ourselves like okay, and then and I can choose something different.
It's very evident during this conversation, Mary Martha, that you
have and I love that. I'm here for the two names,
the two names as a love it that.
Speaker 8 (45:38):
It's really three names. Elizabeth, I'm Elizabeth is my middle name. Okay,
so I'm Mary Martha Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Oh. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Sometimes when you were you always did your mom always
say Mary Martha Elizabeth, And you knew then that you
were in an extra.
Speaker 6 (45:57):
I was in extra trouble if I heard all the names.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
Absolutely, absolutely, well, it's quite evident that you're such a
steady source of love and strength in your brother's life.
What would you say is one meaningful way that you
think we all can uplift our loved ones, giving them
(46:20):
the space to be exactly who they are, learning how
to love unconditionally.
Speaker 6 (46:27):
Without judgment. That's how you get to uplift. Someone else said, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
We all just want to be seen.
Speaker 9 (46:37):
That's it, acknowledged, heard, and loved. Billy Well, happiness is
often seen as the ultimate goal. It doesn't necessarily equate
to a fulfilled life. Would you believe are the key
ingredients of living a fulfilled life?
Speaker 1 (46:53):
You have to choose yourself. You know, there's no way
to be happy when you're lying. You know, one must
choose truth, One must choose yourself. And I know for
me growing up in the church, you know, one of
the things that was very difficult for me was conflating
(47:14):
choosing myself with being selfish. Interesting and I think that's
I think that's being illuminated these days in ways that
you know, it's like, oh no, actually, because when I
put my oxygen mask on first, which is a version
of choosing myself, then I'm actually have more energy and
(47:38):
more consistency.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
To help others and to give to others.
Speaker 5 (47:45):
To Billy and to Mary Martha, thank you for bringing
just this beautiful energy between the two of you. For
those who are listening. I love how often you were
holding each other's hands and leaning into each other's shoulders
and just being there as siblings in this incredible way.
And you know, through this episode, I love how much
you've spoken about that unwavering family support that you provided
(48:05):
for each other. The you know, seeing you get teered
up when you're talking about your mother, you know, the
courage to break barriers that she did in her own life.
And I'm left with these three you know, reflections won
this importance of self compassion. I love, Billy how you
talked about setting boundaries, about setting boundaries relationships, setting bundies
for yourself, and it starts with self putting the oxygen
(48:25):
mask on first. Second, I love that you talked about
forgiveness and even finding ways to forgive individuals in unconventional ways.
As you said, the body doesn't know the difference. When
you were there eight times a week for multiple years
forgiving as an actor, but forgiving the father figure and
what that meant for you and to be free in
(48:47):
that way. But I had to say the single greatest
takeaway was authenticity, Like just you've lived your life with authenticity.
I love when you said you don't mind failing as
long as you're not failing as somebody else. And I
love the line You've got to choose yourself, Like, my god,
I wish everyone and it doesn't matter what your you know, artists, passion, purpose, like,
(49:09):
just got to choose yourself whatever it ends up being.
And so I love that you took time to share
that with us, but mostly I love that you lived it.
You proved it through your life, like that's how you've
living your legacy, and in this beautiful conversation, the two
of you together showing us this path to a more
fulfilled life. We are grateful to both of you.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
We're grateful to you.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Thank you for opening the door. I'm sorry that the
pain that you carried and have to that you went through,
but my god, I am so grateful and I almost
can feel I don't I don't know your mom, but
almost like kind of putting the arms on both of you,
(49:54):
almost like it's.
Speaker 4 (49:54):
Okay, baby, It's okay baby, and you know we are.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
We're so grateful just for for who you are, who
both of you all are, in the in this world
when sometimes you maybe felt that you weren't seen or
you weren't celebrated, that you continue to move forward and
you're pushing the envelope and pushing expansion for all of us,
(50:20):
for all of us.
Speaker 4 (50:21):
And when you get that, Oscar.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
I'll get it. Let me just get a job right now.
I can pay these bills. Baby. They're nice to look at,
but I've still got my bill.
Speaker 9 (50:39):
Guys, thank you so much, and we said lots of
love and lots of.
Speaker 4 (50:43):
So much.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Thank you, thank you, thank you for seeing me.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (50:50):
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (50:51):
We are so grateful to have you as part of
this journey.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
If you enjoyed today's.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
Conversation, subscribe and share the pod cast with friends, family,
and loved ones, and follow us on social media at
my Legacy Movement. At the heart of this podcast is
doctor King's vision of the beloved community and the power
of connection. This podcast is a testament to that vision
and the product of collective effort, enriched by the voices, stories,
(51:20):
and support of so many. A Legacy Plus Studio production
distributed by iHeartMedia. Creative and executive producer Suzanne Hayward co
executive producer Lisa Lyle. My Legacy podcast is available on
the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Until
(51:40):
next time, may you find connection and inspiration to live
your most fulfilled life.
We're ten years apart, and she's been my best friend since.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
She was an avy.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I was queer very early, and that came with a
lot of pushback from our community. You know, when it
was time to make the unconditional love choice. She and
my mother both made that choice in the faith of
an entire community and infrastructure, telling them both that they
(00:35):
were going to burn in hell for doing so.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Hello Loves, I'm Andrea Waters King and that was a
trailblazing entertainer, actor, singer, styl hun the Emmy, Tony and
Grammy winning Billy Porter. Always his authentic self, Billy shared
his journey to overcome immense trauma to break down barriers.
Our conversation with Billy is a powerful of courage, finding self, love,
(01:03):
and standing boldly in your truth.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Billy is joined by his youngest sister.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Mary Martha Ford, who has been a steady source of
strength and inspiration throughout his life. Of course, there were
tears and laughter as they share what makes their brother
sister Bond unshakable.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Let's jump in.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
Well, welcome to my legacy. We're here with Billy Porter.
His extraordinary life story is one of courage, resilience, and authenticity.
And we hope it will inspire you to create a
living legacy and lead a more fulfilled life. On this podcast,
we don't just hear from iconic figures. We also connect
with the people who know them best to give us
deeper understanding of the challenges and the triumphs that have
(01:49):
shaped their legacy. Joining Billy today is his sister, Mary
Martha Ford, whose love and support have been central to
his remarkable journey. Billy and Mary Martha, what rivilege it
is to be with you, and thank you for being here.
And so, Billy, we got to start off by asking
you to introduce Mary Martha and sharing what makes her
(02:09):
such an important person in your life.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Okay, well, Mary Martha Elizabeth Ford is my baby sister.
We're ten years apart, and she's been my best friend
since she was an baby. It's like I couldn't wait
till she was old enough so we could like hang out.
I was like, get your childhood all over with please,
(02:35):
so we can hang out. You know, I call her
the rock star because you know, she turned she has
turned a very.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Complicated life into something great for herself and everyone around her.
And I'm just you know, honored to call her my
rock star sister.
Speaker 6 (03:07):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
It's beautiful. I love that I'm here with my brother.
I just I've got goosebumps or as you would say,
god bumps listening.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
To that one.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
I love it, Billy. So we're talking about legacy, and
can you take us way back to Pittsburgh. Can you
tell us a little bit about your childhood and maybe
share a story that really helps to shine a light
on what life was like for you growing up in
your younger years.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
It was tough, you know, it was traumatizing very often,
and there was a lot of love as well. And
I had a lot of angels in my life who
were and camped around me, who saw me in ways
(03:58):
that sometimes my immediate family, my immediate sort of community
didn't understand. And these people were able to just kind
of guide me in the right directions so that I
could dream and accomplish beyond my circumstance.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
A music teacher identified that I could thing, and from
that point on, you know, in the fifth grade, and
from that point on, the agels in my life stepped
in and made sure that I, you know, that I
(04:47):
was able to, like I said, dream and accomplish beyond
my circumstance.
Speaker 7 (04:54):
Mary Martha, I've got a question for you, Yes, being
ten years younger, what was your DWN dynamic like when Billy,
you know, kind of growing up and how has it evolved?
Speaker 6 (05:07):
Hows it evolved?
Speaker 8 (05:08):
So I don't remember him until my first memory was
maybe when we were five, five or six, and it
was Christmas morning. That's one of my first memories, Christmas
morning and him waking me up and taking me like
I rode his back into the living room, and there
(05:29):
were gifts, and there were gifts that he bought me
with his own money because he had a job working
at kenny Wood, which was Kennywood Park, which was our
amusement park. I just remember Billy being kind and my friend,
someone that I looked up to, and he was always singing,
(05:50):
and so we were always everywhere where he was singing
and performing. My mom and I would be there all
of the time. I should have been at home on
a school night, but I was in the theater wherever
he was. That's where we were, and so that's how
I ended up catching the theater bug as well. How
(06:11):
has it evolved? It has evolved from being I don't know,
just brother and sister to best friends, and so I
can call him about anything. We talk every morning, you know,
there's you know, just to check in how you doing.
I'm doing all right, what you're doing today, And I'm
very grateful for that. I recognize that the relationship as
(06:34):
siblings that he and I have is not one that
lots of people can say that they have with their siblings,
and so it's something that I used to take for granted,
which I don't take for granted anymore because now I
recognize how true and precious it is.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
What's so fascinating to me about that story, though, is
I can just imagine, see if you were in fifth
grade and then Billy is about ten years older than you, like.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
You.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
You all said a little bit earlier that there's a
lot of trauma kind of growing up. But here this
to me, says it all about your heart, about the
fact of being an entertainer.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
You you you worked.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Just make sure I heard the story correctly, and then
make sure that you that your sister had a good Christmas,
your baby sister. It's almost like that you know that protection,
but not only that, it seemed like there was so
much joy, you got as much joy that Christmas morning.
I just thought that that's such a beaut that I
actually almost bought tears to my eyes just I can
(07:42):
kind of see you all, you know, going through that,
and I think it's so extraordinary, and I'm so I'm
also curious, then, Billy, how has your sister been a
source of strength for you throughout your lives growing up?
Speaker 6 (08:01):
Don't cry?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
She you know, she was younger than me, and I
was queer very early.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
In our community. That came with a lot of pushback
from our community and our family, and you know, when
it was time to make the unconditional love choice, she
and my mother both made that choice in the faith
(08:37):
of an entire community and infrastructure, telling them both that
they were going to burn in hell for doing so.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Mary Martha was the first, you know, person that.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I came out to in my family, even before you know,
when she was sixteen.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, before my mother.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Well, no, I told my mother, but my mother wasn't
able to receive it for a while.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
So my sister was able to receive it.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
At such a young age, and she was so present
in the moment for me and so evolved, you know,
And it was something that I had worked on trying
to give her, you know, trying to actually be the
(09:30):
same kind of angel for her that I had experienced
for myself, to show her that there were spaces outside
of our immediate infrastructure. There were people outside of.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Our status quo.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
And experiences outside of that.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
That were just as important.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
And more important than the religious dogma that you know,
was trying to sort of be ingrained in us. There
were other options, and I was sort of trying to
show her those other options. And I didn't realize that
(10:21):
they had taken hold until I came out to her
at sixteen.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
They had already taken hold.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
All of those things that I was trying to instill
had already taken hold.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
And it was you know, it was magical. It was emotional,
and it was.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Gratifying and spiritual and all those things.
Speaker 9 (10:41):
Well, Billy and Mary Martha, we admire your tenacity, your love,
your compassion towards each other. I also want to turn
to your amazing career, Billy. Your career has been a
masterclass and breaking barriers and living authentically. What drives you
to keep using your voice to create such substantive change
as you do.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Artists have the power to reach inside of a human
being and transform them from the inside out.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Art has the power to heal all kinds of traumas.
My soul was saved because of the arts.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
If I didn't have the arts, I don't think I
would be alive right now.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Maybe, And I know.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
That when I'm at my lowest, for as long as
I can remember, it's my art that gets me out
of bed in the morning. And there was also growing up,
no representation, really, no mainstream crossover rotat representation of somebody
(12:03):
who looked like me, who stood at that intersection of blackness,
queerness and spirituality. And the ones who did were ignored, dismissed,
passed over, erased. And so how I know what it
(12:27):
felt like to be invisible for over half my life.
And the only reason why I'm not invisible is because
I chose myself.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I chose my authenticity.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
I chose to have the audacity to actually choose myself,
choose my authenticity and then stand on that.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Did you do that deliberately or do you think that
choice was made for you?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
No?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
No, Because for the first part of my life and
my career, I was trying to fit in so I
could eat. I wasn't lying, you know, but it was
the don't act, don't tell era of the world. And
so I wasn't telling. I wasn't lying, but I wasn't telling,
(13:21):
And the omission of not telling is ultimately a lie,
and that binds you as well, you know. And so
I had the gift of failing at somebody else and
particularly in the music industry in the nineties, and I
(13:43):
just vowed to myself that I would never show up
as somebody else again, and whatever that meant for my
life and career is whatever it means.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
And I still say that today.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
You know, I grew up in a family who believed
to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So even right now, you know, with how you look
at me, with how you see me, which I think
is so humbling and so inspiring and exactly my point.
Right to exist inside of the truth.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
And to have the audacity to be authentic and to
speak truth always, no matter how uncomfortable it may be
to some of the people around you.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Sometimes is great, and sometimes it's that so great, you know,
sometimes there are consequences that come with that, as you know.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
So I'm grateful that my work and my efforts and
my intentions are being seen and experienced once again in
the spirit in which I am sharing them.
Speaker 9 (15:08):
Billy, We're also glad that you've chosen that authenticity, and
I just want to say thank you for your eloquence.
Mary Morton went to want to ask you a quick
question about a moment that Billy's love and support made
a difference in your life.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
Oh, his love.
Speaker 8 (15:27):
What people don't know is just how kind, like really
genuinely kind Billy is. And about fourteen years ago, I
had a medical scare where I had to have brain
surgery and I was going to be down for the
count for.
Speaker 6 (15:44):
At least six weeks.
Speaker 8 (15:46):
And Billy was working on a show in New York
and the show ended on a Sunday. He got in
the car on Monday, drove home to Pittsburgh. I had
surgery on a Tuesday, and then he stayed with me
for six weeks and he took excellent care of me.
Speaker 6 (16:04):
So he's a great caregiver. He's a good chef too.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
People don't know that he likes That's the thing.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
That's the thing that I would say, you know, COVID
Lockdown really showed me that cooking is something that soothes me.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
And something that's really healing to me. And it's a
love language for me.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
You know, I'm not like a big gift giver and
I'm not like I'm not like that, but I love
to show love.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Through cooking. And if I cook for you, I love you.
I don't cook for I don't generally cook for people
who I don't like or care about.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Do you have a specially he just likes to cook anything, anything,
And he can take anything that you know, remnants of
stuff in the refrigerator and he'll come up with something
and it bangs. That's how I know, Mary Martha, that's
a good cook. That's always my my test. I can
like I can follow a great recipe you know, or
(17:11):
something that's been passed down, and I think I'm a
pretty good cook.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yes you are.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
My sisters, they go into to me a true like
like they can go into the refrigerator and then they
can see what's there and then make a recipe and
then make it taste good. That that always is my
bench smart for Yeah, can see there you go, Okay,
then you use that that passes that passed the test.
Speaker 5 (17:37):
Grabber refill on your coffee or tea because you won't
want to miss the rest of this conversation, we'll be
right back.
Speaker 7 (18:05):
Welcome back to my legacy, Billy. Which of your projects
has had the greatest impact on your personal growth and
perspective as an artist?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
There's not one, but I will say there's a trilogy.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
The first is Tony Kushner's Angels in America, which do
you know that piece?
Speaker 5 (18:29):
Of course?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, so that was the first time.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
You know, Jeffrey Wright was the original belize in that
back in ninety four, and I went to see that
on Broadway by myself, and that was a transformative moment
because I didn't understand what I was missing, you know,
speaking of representation again, you know, I didn't know that
I was missing seeing a black queer character who was
(18:58):
not the butt of the joke, who was not the
one to be reviled or murdered, but who was the moral.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Depth and heart of this piece.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
That was very dark and very heavy and very political,
and you know, with a bunch of white people swirling
around him, he was the one that held it all
together emotionally and spiritually. And so that changed everything because
up until then my trajectory was not what I wanted
(19:38):
it to be. And then kinky Boots, which was the
original dream coming true. You know, the creation of an
iconic character in the canon of.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
The Broadway musical that was me, that was developed.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
And written around my skill set that I won the
Tony and Grammy for.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
That was, you know. And inside of that, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
My character, who's a drag queen, drag artist, you know,
has a very not great relationship with his father, and
he actively forgives him in the story. And my relationship
with both of my fathers was tenuous at best, and
(20:34):
I had a lot of forgiving to do. And so
the act of forgiving, even a fictional character eight shows
a week for three years, is powerful because our bodies
actually don't know the difference. That's the hard part about
being an actor and a performer. Our bodies don't know
(20:55):
the difference when we're faking it, but our bodies, in
our nervous system, still thinks it's this. We have to
do the work to sort of untangle that emotionally and
spiritually for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
The third pieces pose because the character of Pretel, the
community that it's dealing with, the timeframe that it exists in,
all of those things.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Are part of what it feels like as an artist
to be in the center of your purpose, calling and ministry.
Those three pieces were a culmination of really really hard
and focused work and choices that I had made for
(21:47):
two decades, you know, to get there.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You know, I walked away from the status quo. I
took the road.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Less traveled because I knew that if I was going
to continue down the trajectory that I was on, I would.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Never be happy.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
And it's so interesting because with that comes a lot
of I mean there, you know, there's a reason why
the road less traveled can be lonely sometime. So you know,
on the end, it seems like, oh, this is you know,
such a it's a lot of celebrations, but what people
don't really see and understand is all the sacrifices I
think that goes into that, not only when you're doing it,
(22:31):
but I'm sure you know even now. And one of
the things that I've been so curious about is that
you've been a shining beacon for so many young people
struggling right to embrace who they are. But being one
of the first black queer men to live I mean
just so boldly and particularly in the spotlight, I know
(22:54):
it comes with intense pressure.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
We all we know.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
About the pressure that people don't see. Can you can
you just share an experience or what that has been
like for you.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
I want to tell the truth, yep. And I've been
trying to find ways to tell my truth with an
eye towards the compassionate and the positive. You know, the
most difficult thing for me is being put out by
your own You know, I'm already black, I'm a man,
(23:31):
I'm black first. But for some reason, inside of this
queer conversation, this queerness conversation, and this intersection with the
black community, it.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Says, if queerness.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Doesn't exist, it is a very we have a very
homophobic community.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
And we've grown and I want to say that too,
we've grown there. There has been moved and I'm grateful
for that because I've seen it, because I'm inside of it,
so I've seen it and I am grateful for that.
But I find that that is the hardest thing for
me on a consistent basis, even with the growth, I'm
(24:18):
hit in the face with it at times.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
When I've let my guard down. One of those moments
because you asked for a specific moment. One of those
moments recently was this past June when I was in
DC and I was performing at I was headlining at
Gay Pride, and then I was invited to the White
(24:45):
House that Monday morning for a June teenth summit, where
I sat on the dais with lots of very smart,
intellectual people and we talked about, you know, the work
that needs to be done, and how are we gonna
(25:07):
transform what we're going through right now and all of that.
And then I went to the concert on the White
House lawn and just so happened to be sitting, happened
to be placed on the front row next to the
second Gentleman, who was next to the Vice President, who
(25:29):
was next to the president.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
And when they came in, I greeted them all.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Now, I kissed the hand of President Biden, I kissed
the hand of Vice President Harris. I gave you know,
the second gentleman a big hug. And the next morning
they ran a photo of me. Somebody ran a photo
(25:57):
of me kissing the hand of Joe Biden next to.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
A drawing of a slave kissing President Lincoln's hand. The
reason why we can't get anywhere.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And every time there's forward motion and progressive motion, but
the pendulum swings so.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Far back is because inside of our own communities.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
We're doing that. We're not supporting each other. You know,
it's like, so what are you saying? Once again, what
are you saying? Because tell the truth, you actually aren't mad.
It doesn't make sense that you would be mad that
(26:56):
I'm kissing President Biden's hand next to this, this this
parallel that you're trying to draw, because that drawing was
done in the moment, right, not with three hundred years
of history or however long it was.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
It wasn't done with the history behind it, right. So
that person was happy.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
That slave was happy that he was emancipated, and he
was literally simply thinking the man who emancipated him. We
pulled Joe Biden out of retirement to come and try
to save democracy, which he and his administration did, and
I'm grateful for that. Nobody's perfect, nobody does everything right.
(27:46):
You know, we're not going to agree with everybody on everything.
But for me, I've been in this long enough to
know what the motivation is for real, and the motivation
is that I am a black faggot.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
And I use the word on purpose because that's how
violent these responses are to me simply being myself. Right,
I'm in a sparkly caftan on the front row.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I'm embarrassing to the black community, not everybody. Let me
be clear, how dare I have the audacity to be
on the front row, out loud, proud in address.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
How dare I?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Is it more anger or hurt? I don't know for you,
like when you yes for you, because yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
It's both. It's all of the above, you know, because
I'm out here trying to help everybody. I'm black first, y'all.
Whether y'all want to acknowledge that or not.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
People see me as black first, babies, you know, even
with the queer community. I've had to start going to things.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
And being like, y'all know, I'm black first, though, right,
I've stand at this intersection, but I'm black first, and
clearly I have to remind you all of that. So
I'm gonna start reminding y'all.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Well, Mary Martha as a black woman, because that's you know,
we talk about that a lot, you know, you know,
being black and being a woman and kind of all
that that that that that brings.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
I'm black, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
All of it.
Speaker 8 (29:38):
I'm black first, woman second, and people, but people put
it together black woman, and then that has its own,
its own.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Context.
Speaker 8 (29:50):
For some people, it's not. It's not separate. But I'm
I'm at a lot of intersections myself.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Mary Martha.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
Can I ask you a question, And I asked this
gingerly and let me acknowledge the fact that I'm not black,
and so I asked this seeking to listen and learn.
You have witnessed your brother go through challenges but also
be a hero for so many in black community, but
just in the community large. When you look at him,
(30:18):
you have seen him at the most challenged points of
his life, and you've seen in the most extraordinary points
of his life. What are you most proud of? As
his sister who knows him on an intimate and a
personal level in a way that we never will. But
you have seen the struggles and you've seen the triumphs.
Speaker 8 (30:36):
Yes, well the highs. The highs in this business can
be high and the lows can be really low. And
what I'm most proud of is how he continues to
get up every day and to show up for his life.
That's what I'm most proud of because that is something
(30:57):
that I strive for. I can look to him and
I say, he gets up every day and he is
showing up for his life. I too can get up
every day and show up for my life. It doesn't
matter what people say, even though you know you're human.
And so yes, sometimes the things that people that people
(31:18):
may say or miscategorize you as of course, that's going
to bother you. But he keeps getting up and moving
through it. And that's what's very inspiring.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Did that kind of help you when you were talking
about having brain surgery and oh yeah, like was that
also something that helped.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
You get Yes?
Speaker 8 (31:41):
Absolutely, absolutely that and that and our mother, our mom
was born with a neurological condition very similar to cerebral palsy,
and she got up every day and showed up for
her life.
Speaker 6 (31:56):
And so that was also the blueprint for.
Speaker 8 (31:59):
The both of us so that we can continue to
be the people that we are today.
Speaker 9 (32:05):
Billy, you've been open about the profound pain you've worked
through in trauma therapy. Where was wondering if you could
tell us a little bit about that and perhaps some
of the meaningful breakthroughs you've had along the way.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
The mental health profession and what they have developed over
the years to sort of help people heal themselves, heal trauma,
all of those things. It's extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
And I began a very tailored process to my specific
trauma in very specific trauma therapy during COVID.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
In a way that you mean, you know, I keep
saying the world shut down so that I could address
my trauma for real, you know. And the thing I
learned the most that I still deal with is.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
The self compassion component that all of us have to learn.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
About for ourselves and for our mental health, self care
and boundaries.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
The fact that I didn't even know what that was.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I didn't know what a boundary was, and so I
kept finding myself in relationships, particularly.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Romantic relationships with no boundaries.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Those are the two biggest healing components that I have
taken away from that, you know, in the practice, in
the everyday practice.
Speaker 9 (33:53):
And Mary Martha witnessing billity confronts and to start to
heal from such deep trauma must be quite a powerful experience.
What changes have you seen in him since he's begun
his own journey of trauma healing.
Speaker 6 (34:06):
The self compassion, seeing him learning how to say no.
Speaker 8 (34:13):
Billy is such a giver and always wanted to see
everyone win, but sometimes.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
You know when we do that to what end, at
what cost?
Speaker 8 (34:22):
And so seeing him being able to say to say
no and to take care of himself.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
You're listening to my legacy. More of this inspiring and
powerful conversation after the break, Welcome back to my Legacy.
(35:10):
We have Billy Porter with us, who is always his
authentic self, along with his writer die, his sister Mary Martha. Billy,
you are on the brink of egot status, an elite
group of artists who have won the Emmy, the Grammy,
the Oscar, and the Tony. You've already run three of those.
We have no doubt the Oscar is in your future.
(35:30):
And when you were honored at the most recent Tony Awards,
oh my god, it was amazing to watch you dedicated
it to your mother, of course, who of course passed
away shortly there before. Can you share with us a
little about your incredible mother and the greatest lesson that
she passed to you.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Well, like Mary Martha said, you know, she was born
with a condition that would have put anybody else in
the grave early.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
She wasn't, you know, supposed to be able to probably
not live past thirty, probably not be able to take
care of herself all of those things, all of that negative,
naysaying stuff, and she found a way to She chose
to get up every day and not take.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Those predictions to heart.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
She was also a very religious woman who I watched
choose an expansion of her mind inside of the doctrines
(37:05):
of religiosity to find the space to love her gay
son unconditionally. Anyway, she was the personification of what true
Christianity means. You know, I'm just forever grateful. You know,
(37:30):
everybody doesn't get that. And it wasn't immediate. You know,
we had things to work through, and she did the work.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
She did the work in a profound, profound way. Yeah,
we miss her a lot.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
And you know, my mom passed away five years ago,
and thank you, and I'm sorry for you, Oswals.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
It is.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
I I I wish I could say it gets e
it gets easier, and even you know, just you know,
there are times when I still look for her. I
still have her number, you know, on my phone, and
something happens. One of the first things you I still
wanna do is call my mom. And it sometimes it
(38:31):
it it still hits me, and it particulars around the
holidays even you know, just the other the other day,
you know, something came on and I just you know,
said and and had a good cry. Well, first of all,
May Angelou said that when your mom is gone, no
matter what your relationship is with her, one of the
(38:54):
things that is that you will miss her more than
you know. And I was incredibly close to my mom
and still miss her more more than I know. And
you all, there's something that you feel untethered, Yes, and
(39:14):
especially when someone is such a giver.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
Like my mom just seems like your mom was.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
And so, you know, we just I hope that both
of you all know that there are so many people
around this this nation and the world that are holding
you as you're walking through this journey. You all think
you all are not alone.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
That's appreciated. Thank you, Mary Martha.
Speaker 7 (39:44):
You've shared that grief is a journey. What have you
learned about, you know, healing and resilience.
Speaker 8 (39:51):
I'm still learning. It's a daily it's a daily practice.
I get up and I say, okay, so what's going
to happen today?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Will it be? Will it be?
Speaker 8 (40:01):
Looking at I don't know, a cherry pie in the
grocery store that gets me to remembering my mom and
I burst out in tears and run out.
Speaker 6 (40:11):
I'm learning just to take it one day at a time.
That's what I'm doing.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
I always said, I it's so wonderful to give people
space and grace.
Speaker 8 (40:20):
Space and grace, and one of the things that it's
so hard to do is to give yourself the space
and grace. It's very easy to give it to other people,
but what about yourself. That's where that self compassion, that
self compassion comes in. But one thing that I did
learn and that I've been working on is called the rose,
(40:41):
the thorn, and the bud. And this is what I've
been working through with my grief, is that I picked
something great that has happened. Then I may say something
that's been on that maybe has gotten on my nerves,
and then something that I can look forward to. And
so that's what I do practice on a daily is
my rose, thorn, and bud.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
We used to do that family dinners, yep, every every
night with our daughter Yolanda, like Okay, what is your
what is the thorn for the day, and what.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
Is the roles? What is what is the gift?
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Yes to?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
So that so we do that we need to get
back to doing that.
Speaker 6 (41:16):
We have to do that with our with our daughter.
Speaker 7 (41:19):
Yeah yeah, Billy uh you your life's work has been
about creating change through art. What's one piece of advice
you'd give someone looking to make a difference in their
own unique way.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
My advice would be that you have to.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Understand who you are, understand what the calling and the
purpose is, and just get up and put one foot
in front of the other and do it every day.
Tell the truth, you know, and like I said earlier,
the truth is not always easy. You know, as we've
seen over the last decade, the truth is under attack.
(42:01):
You know, a lot of people don't want to hear
the truth. A lot of people don't want the truth
because the truth can be horrifying sometimes and the truth
will set you free. And a lot of people don't
want to be set free.
Speaker 6 (42:17):
They say they do, but they don't want it.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
That was what was so interesting about trauma therapy, you know,
because trauma therapy is about the truth.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
And I wanted to and I want to be set free.
And then you start the process and you're.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Like, oh, there's some days you don't want to go back.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, in some days that the truth is not, you know,
not today, not today.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
You're listening to my legacy.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
I'm curious too, did you all? Did you.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Because you said that you started trauma therapy during during
COVID SO twenty twenty one. By this time you were
already a very well known and accomplished individual. You could
have just continue, not continue, but to hide behind you
know what? Was there anything in particular that made you decide, okay,
you know this is the time, this is the moment.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I was in a very toxic marriage. That was a
pattern that I couldn't seem to break. That was the
initial impulse.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
It's like I got to do better for myself, and
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
How to do that. I don't think I've tried. I
know what the pattern is. I thought I broke sad pattern,
and ultimately I haven't.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
So I may need help.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Because I don't want to stay in this pattern. You know,
I don't want to keep doing it. The definition of
crazy is doing the same thing and expecting it.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
I don't want.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
I you know, I have too much to do on
this planet to be bound by stupid stuff, or not
stupid stuff, just the same stuff. Sorry, I don't mean
to diminish my own self. That's the self compassion part.
Like I have to stop talking about that.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
It actually is a sorry and that's good.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
See and I love it. There you go.
Speaker 6 (44:57):
That's what it is.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Practicing it in the moment, Yes, exactly, And that's true
compassion for yourself. Not expecting the perfection, right, but catching
yourself and acknowledging yes, And that in and of itself
takes courage. You know, so many of us don't want
(45:18):
to acknowledge, you know, and and and so to catch
ourselves like okay, and then and I can choose something different.
It's very evident during this conversation, Mary Martha, that you
have and I love that. I'm here for the two names,
the two names as a love it that.
Speaker 8 (45:38):
It's really three names. Elizabeth, I'm Elizabeth is my middle name. Okay,
so I'm Mary Martha Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Oh. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Sometimes when you were you always did your mom always
say Mary Martha Elizabeth, And you knew then that you
were in an extra.
Speaker 6 (45:57):
I was in extra trouble if I heard all the names.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
Absolutely, absolutely, well, it's quite evident that you're such a
steady source of love and strength in your brother's life.
What would you say is one meaningful way that you
think we all can uplift our loved ones, giving them
(46:20):
the space to be exactly who they are, learning how
to love unconditionally.
Speaker 6 (46:27):
Without judgment. That's how you get to uplift. Someone else said, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
We all just want to be seen.
Speaker 9 (46:37):
That's it, acknowledged, heard, and loved. Billy Well, happiness is
often seen as the ultimate goal. It doesn't necessarily equate
to a fulfilled life. Would you believe are the key
ingredients of living a fulfilled life?
Speaker 1 (46:53):
You have to choose yourself. You know, there's no way
to be happy when you're lying. You know, one must
choose truth, One must choose yourself. And I know for
me growing up in the church, you know, one of
the things that was very difficult for me was conflating
(47:14):
choosing myself with being selfish. Interesting and I think that's
I think that's being illuminated these days in ways that
you know, it's like, oh no, actually, because when I
put my oxygen mask on first, which is a version
of choosing myself, then I'm actually have more energy and
(47:38):
more consistency.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
To help others and to give to others.
Speaker 5 (47:45):
To Billy and to Mary Martha, thank you for bringing
just this beautiful energy between the two of you. For
those who are listening. I love how often you were
holding each other's hands and leaning into each other's shoulders
and just being there as siblings in this incredible way.
And you know, through this episode, I love how much
you've spoken about that unwavering family support that you provided
(48:05):
for each other. The you know, seeing you get teered
up when you're talking about your mother, you know, the
courage to break barriers that she did in her own life.
And I'm left with these three you know, reflections won
this importance of self compassion. I love, Billy how you
talked about setting boundaries, about setting boundaries relationships, setting bundies
for yourself, and it starts with self putting the oxygen
(48:25):
mask on first. Second, I love that you talked about
forgiveness and even finding ways to forgive individuals in unconventional ways.
As you said, the body doesn't know the difference. When
you were there eight times a week for multiple years
forgiving as an actor, but forgiving the father figure and
what that meant for you and to be free in
(48:47):
that way. But I had to say the single greatest
takeaway was authenticity, Like just you've lived your life with authenticity.
I love when you said you don't mind failing as
long as you're not failing as somebody else. And I
love the line You've got to choose yourself, Like, my god,
I wish everyone and it doesn't matter what your you know, artists, passion, purpose, like,
(49:09):
just got to choose yourself whatever it ends up being.
And so I love that you took time to share
that with us, but mostly I love that you lived it.
You proved it through your life, like that's how you've
living your legacy, and in this beautiful conversation, the two
of you together showing us this path to a more
fulfilled life. We are grateful to both of you.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
We're grateful to you.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Thank you for opening the door. I'm sorry that the
pain that you carried and have to that you went through,
but my god, I am so grateful and I almost
can feel I don't I don't know your mom, but
almost like kind of putting the arms on both of you,
(49:54):
almost like it's.
Speaker 4 (49:54):
Okay, baby, It's okay baby, and you know we are.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
We're so grateful just for for who you are, who
both of you all are, in the in this world
when sometimes you maybe felt that you weren't seen or
you weren't celebrated, that you continue to move forward and
you're pushing the envelope and pushing expansion for all of us,
(50:20):
for all of us.
Speaker 4 (50:21):
And when you get that, Oscar.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
I'll get it. Let me just get a job right now.
I can pay these bills. Baby. They're nice to look at,
but I've still got my bill.
Speaker 9 (50:39):
Guys, thank you so much, and we said lots of
love and lots of.
Speaker 4 (50:43):
So much.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Thank you, thank you, thank you for seeing me.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (50:50):
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (50:51):
We are so grateful to have you as part of
this journey.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
If you enjoyed today's.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
Conversation, subscribe and share the pod cast with friends, family,
and loved ones, and follow us on social media at
my Legacy Movement. At the heart of this podcast is
doctor King's vision of the beloved community and the power
of connection. This podcast is a testament to that vision
and the product of collective effort, enriched by the voices, stories,
(51:20):
and support of so many. A Legacy Plus Studio production
distributed by iHeartMedia. Creative and executive producer Suzanne Hayward co
executive producer Lisa Lyle. My Legacy podcast is available on
the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Until
(51:40):
next time, may you find connection and inspiration to live
your most fulfilled life.
Hosts And Creators
Craig Kielburger
Marc Kielburger
Martin Luther King III
Arndrea Waters King
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