September 25, 2025 • 14 mins
In this My Legacy Bonus Drop, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Nikole Hannah-Jones reflects on the surprising journey of the 1619 Project, from cultural phenomenon to political lightning rod.
Alongside her husband Faraji Hannah-Jones, Nikole shares why she founded the Center for Journalism and Democracy, what it means to raise a daughter in today’s climate, and why she believes HBCUs are more vital than ever.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is my legacy, and this speaks bonus drop. Nicole
Hanna Jones looks back on the New York Times of
sixteen nineteen projects, the Pulitzer Prize winning work that reframed
America's story. Joined by her husband Faraji, she reveals her
fight for pro democracy journalism and how she is raising
her daughter to stand Paul in today's climate. Let's jump in, Nicole.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Obviously, there was incredible love for this project, but.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Also fierce political pushback.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
But what was the most surprising outcome and your greatest disappointment.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Everything about how this project has gone into the world
has shocked me. I didn't do this project because I
thought it would, you know, go on to become this
cultural phenomenon that it has, that it would turn into
two best selling books, that it would turn to a
six part documentary series that would have, you know, a
(00:58):
life where six years later, I'm still constantly talking about it.
I just this was just a project that was all
my soul to put into the world. And Fredie would
tell you the night before it published, I was a
mess because I had somehow convinced the New York Times
to put all these resources to the blackest thing they
(01:19):
have ever published. And I didn't know how people would
respond to it. I didn't know if if we would
have used all those resources and people would engage with
it the way that I hope. So everything the good
and the bad, and we focus a lot on the criticism.
(01:40):
But again, I know what this project has meant to
Black Americans. I know what has meant to people who
are not black. And I know that if if so
many people hadn't had their eyes opened, were not willing
to embrace and question, you wouldn't the attacks. You don't
(02:01):
attack things that are insignificant and not having impact. So
I've been surprised by everything that has happened. My greatest disappointment,
I think my greatest disappointments is not so much about
anything direct directly related to the project, but really just
(02:26):
in how little pushed back and how much capitulation and
acquiescence we are seeing to the national attacks on our history.
Just how you know, some of the most delete institutions
in the country right now are simply folding. They are
(02:47):
not fighting back, they're not using their resources. And it
makes you realize how much of what came out of
twenty twenty and all of those connections that people were
making was just performative. So I'm not disappointed really about anything.
Even even the attacks on the project don't disappoint me,
(03:08):
but just the lack of defense of black writers, of
black histories, of the ability to tell our stories honestly
and for you know, upholding values of diversity and inclusiveness.
And I'm not talking about some corporate DEI structure. I'm
(03:29):
talking about the actual values of diversity and inclusion in
a multi racial democracy. That's been my greatest disappointment is
the silence.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
If you're looking for stories that move you, insights that
shift you, in conversations that stay deeply within you, do
us a favor and do yourself a favor and hit
the subscribe button right now. It's the best way to
support this podcast and support your journey. New episodes drop
every week.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Now.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Back to my legacy, Nicole. You founded the Center for
Journals and Democracy at Howard University, and this is incredibly
important right now, especially when you seek to train journalists.
When you've said eloquently that truth and journalism is under attack.
How are you creating that what you refer to as
that firewall in our democracy through journalism and how are
(04:19):
you inspiring the next generation of journalists to maintain that firewall?
Speaker 4 (04:24):
So I founded the Center for Journalism and Democracy. Of course,
following my battle for tenure with my alma mater, the
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and after I
finally got my vote for tenure, I rejected it and
came to Howard University instead, where I founded this center.
(04:48):
And that was obviously a very intentional choice. I really
believed that our profession had failed in how they covered
a once in a in the history of a nation
candidate called Donald Trump, and that they didn't seem to
understand that the type of imbalance between the political parties
(05:14):
meant you couldn't just cover what was happening politically as
business as usual, as horse race politics of you know,
he says, she said.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
So I.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Wanted to really challenge this notion that journalism could be
objective in the face of eroding democracy, that as a
profession we have to be pro democracy because you can't exist.
A free press cannot exist without democracy, and democracy cannot
exist without a free press. So I wanted to come
(05:49):
and help train future generations of journalists at historically black
colleges and universities, particularly because I believe that few groups,
maybe none, understand the fallacy of American democracy better than
(06:09):
Black Americans, and that experience is we didn't have it right.
We did not have it until nineteen sixty five with
the passage of the Voting Rights Act. So Black Americans
understand what this country is capable of. We understand that
when people say this is the oldest continuing democracy in
(06:30):
the world, that's not the truth that in fact, we've
only had multiracial democracy for sixty plus years, and that
the only reason we have that is because of a enduring,
decades long freedom struggle and the violence suppression of that
freedom struggle. So I understand that when our journalists are
(06:53):
not being trained with that historical understanding, then they are
covering policy tics without actually understanding what drives politics in
this country and how those politics work. So that's what
we're trying to do at the Center is train HBCU
students who study journalism in pro democracy, historically informed journalism
(07:20):
to say, you know, we can look at it, at
what's happening in the country right now and see that
our systems of checks and balances are failing and that
everything that we thought was enforceable was actually just some
agreed upon rules. And as soon as you have a
politician or a political party that doesn't agree on the
rules anymore, then it all kind of falls apart. But
(07:42):
that one kind of as I have said, firewall remains
the press, and we have to be we must be
up to the job. If this democracy is to be saved,
then I'm not sure that it will be. But nineteen
seventy six, I was born in the Bison tenn a
year I was born, as you know, as part of
(08:03):
that first generation of black Americans in the entire history
of the United States who was born with full rights
of citizenship. You know, a decade before I was born,
we were in the throes of the civil rights movement
simply to have black Americans, uh be able to have
the same rights as any other American a decade before
(08:24):
I was born. And I feel a great responsibility to
not lose what my ancestors allowed me to have. That
I have to be in the fight for that, and
so I just think that that is my role. That is,
as long as I have the ability to to act,
(08:49):
I have to be acting to to preserve what was
given to me. And to repay that debt. And I
see my work at Howard as doing that the new
generations of journalists.
Speaker 5 (09:02):
And it's interesting too because your daughter is fifteen, ours
is seventeen, so you know, she is entering her senior
year of high school. So we're starting that whole college university.
You know, all of that you mentioned earlier about the
silence that's been happening a lot in these in you know,
(09:25):
in colleges and universities. Now that your daughters, and this
is to both of you all or she's because before
you blink, she's going to be in college. You've done
so much work transforming law education system. Are you concerned
about the climate of colleges and universities and is that
(09:46):
in any way informing your decision or her decision of
where she's looking at going to school.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
I mean, I'm certainly concerned, and both as a faculty,
a college faculty member, as someone who is reporting on
the impacts of this administration on black people and other
marginalized groups across the country. And yeah, as a parent, now,
my dream has been for my child to go to
(10:13):
Howard since she was three years old, So it was
never you know, as far as I'm concerned. My a
tension was never that my my daughter would go to
a PWY. And I learned, as I'm sure you all know,
as parents of a teenager, that if you want them
to do something, you better stop talking about it.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
So I call it.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
So I bringing her to Howard events, you know, brought
her to homecoming last year, took her to the Legacy Classic,
took her to my classes, and so far she also
says she wants to go to Howard. So I'm hoping that.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
She will.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
We'll be able to spend her college years and that
protective bubble of an HBCU. Not that they are utopia,
but I think, particularly in this climate, and that's why
we're seeing record enrollment at HBCUs across the country, it's
so many black parents who themselves were likely, you know,
(11:18):
among those first significant groups of people who went into
those pwis. I personally was scarred by my experience at
Notre Dame, and that's why I really wanted my own
daughter to go to an HBCU. And I think in
this political climate where you're seeing again, you know, are
most elite schools that are shuttering their multicultural centers, that
are ending their DEI practices that I feel like that
(11:41):
would be a very unwelcome environment. So I think a
lot of black parents are are making similar choices for
their kids, and I think this is a time where
where we as black communities then really need to support
and embrace our HBCUs and make sure or that they
are getting the proper funding to meet that need.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I remember our daughter having a conversation. She was like,
I want to go to and I'm not going to
name the university, but it also started with an H
and Nicole is like, I'm only paying for a HB.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
So, Nicole, that wasn't subtle at all.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
I was right, I'll support you wherever you go, but
not financially. Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
In the beginning I thought it was harsh, But when
what I really really heard from it, I got a
chance to process what that meant. You know, you know,
I hope that knowing and seeing what our pwis are
doing in terms of you know, falling to their knees
to the Trump administration, you know, we see a benefit
ensuring that our black kids are giddy. Part of their
(12:51):
quality education is the experience itself, and that the harm
that is done when a black child is isolated from
their community, and it's such isolation to the part where
they don't even see where they fit. And just because
you enroll black students, does it mean that you created
the environment for them to thrive? And so we I
(13:14):
believe I went to a HBCU, my grandmother went to HBCU,
my family went to HBCUs, my grandfather. So I feel
like it's very important and I hope that our ahbcus
do hear the call and meet that and meet that
call as well. So I thought that that by all
means we work hard. Why not take that investment much
(13:36):
higher and make sure that we investing in our HBCUs.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
It's an incredibly important conversation and one in which a
lot of black families are having right now.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed today's conversation, subscribe, share,
and follow us on at my Legacy Movement on social
media and YouTube. New episodes drop every two with bonus
content every Thursday. At its core, this podcast honors doctor
King's vision of the beloved community and the power of connection.
(14:10):
A Legacy Plus Studio production distributed by iHeartMedia. Creator and
executive producer Suzanne Hayward, co executive producer Lisa Lyle. Listen
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is my legacy, and this speaks bonus drop. Nicole
Hanna Jones looks back on the New York Times of
sixteen nineteen projects, the Pulitzer Prize winning work that reframed
America's story. Joined by her husband Faraji, she reveals her
fight for pro democracy journalism and how she is raising
her daughter to stand Paul in today's climate. Let's jump in, Nicole.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Obviously, there was incredible love for this project, but.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Also fierce political pushback.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
But what was the most surprising outcome and your greatest disappointment.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Everything about how this project has gone into the world
has shocked me. I didn't do this project because I
thought it would, you know, go on to become this
cultural phenomenon that it has, that it would turn into
two best selling books, that it would turn to a
six part documentary series that would have, you know, a
(00:58):
life where six years later, I'm still constantly talking about it.
I just this was just a project that was all
my soul to put into the world. And Fredie would
tell you the night before it published, I was a
mess because I had somehow convinced the New York Times
to put all these resources to the blackest thing they
(01:19):
have ever published. And I didn't know how people would
respond to it. I didn't know if if we would
have used all those resources and people would engage with
it the way that I hope. So everything the good
and the bad, and we focus a lot on the criticism.
(01:40):
But again, I know what this project has meant to
Black Americans. I know what has meant to people who
are not black. And I know that if if so
many people hadn't had their eyes opened, were not willing
to embrace and question, you wouldn't the attacks. You don't
(02:01):
attack things that are insignificant and not having impact. So
I've been surprised by everything that has happened. My greatest disappointment,
I think my greatest disappointments is not so much about
anything direct directly related to the project, but really just
(02:26):
in how little pushed back and how much capitulation and
acquiescence we are seeing to the national attacks on our history.
Just how you know, some of the most delete institutions
in the country right now are simply folding. They are
(02:47):
not fighting back, they're not using their resources. And it
makes you realize how much of what came out of
twenty twenty and all of those connections that people were
making was just performative. So I'm not disappointed really about anything.
Even even the attacks on the project don't disappoint me,
(03:08):
but just the lack of defense of black writers, of
black histories, of the ability to tell our stories honestly
and for you know, upholding values of diversity and inclusiveness.
And I'm not talking about some corporate DEI structure. I'm
(03:29):
talking about the actual values of diversity and inclusion in
a multi racial democracy. That's been my greatest disappointment is
the silence.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
If you're looking for stories that move you, insights that
shift you, in conversations that stay deeply within you, do
us a favor and do yourself a favor and hit
the subscribe button right now. It's the best way to
support this podcast and support your journey. New episodes drop
every week.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Now.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Back to my legacy, Nicole. You founded the Center for
Journals and Democracy at Howard University, and this is incredibly
important right now, especially when you seek to train journalists.
When you've said eloquently that truth and journalism is under attack.
How are you creating that what you refer to as
that firewall in our democracy through journalism and how are
(04:19):
you inspiring the next generation of journalists to maintain that firewall?
Speaker 4 (04:24):
So I founded the Center for Journalism and Democracy. Of course,
following my battle for tenure with my alma mater, the
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and after I
finally got my vote for tenure, I rejected it and
came to Howard University instead, where I founded this center.
(04:48):
And that was obviously a very intentional choice. I really
believed that our profession had failed in how they covered
a once in a in the history of a nation
candidate called Donald Trump, and that they didn't seem to
understand that the type of imbalance between the political parties
(05:14):
meant you couldn't just cover what was happening politically as
business as usual, as horse race politics of you know,
he says, she said.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
So I.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Wanted to really challenge this notion that journalism could be
objective in the face of eroding democracy, that as a
profession we have to be pro democracy because you can't exist.
A free press cannot exist without democracy, and democracy cannot
exist without a free press. So I wanted to come
(05:49):
and help train future generations of journalists at historically black
colleges and universities, particularly because I believe that few groups,
maybe none, understand the fallacy of American democracy better than
(06:09):
Black Americans, and that experience is we didn't have it right.
We did not have it until nineteen sixty five with
the passage of the Voting Rights Act. So Black Americans
understand what this country is capable of. We understand that
when people say this is the oldest continuing democracy in
(06:30):
the world, that's not the truth that in fact, we've
only had multiracial democracy for sixty plus years, and that
the only reason we have that is because of a enduring,
decades long freedom struggle and the violence suppression of that
freedom struggle. So I understand that when our journalists are
(06:53):
not being trained with that historical understanding, then they are
covering policy tics without actually understanding what drives politics in
this country and how those politics work. So that's what
we're trying to do at the Center is train HBCU
students who study journalism in pro democracy, historically informed journalism
(07:20):
to say, you know, we can look at it, at
what's happening in the country right now and see that
our systems of checks and balances are failing and that
everything that we thought was enforceable was actually just some
agreed upon rules. And as soon as you have a
politician or a political party that doesn't agree on the
rules anymore, then it all kind of falls apart. But
(07:42):
that one kind of as I have said, firewall remains
the press, and we have to be we must be
up to the job. If this democracy is to be saved,
then I'm not sure that it will be. But nineteen
seventy six, I was born in the Bison tenn a
year I was born, as you know, as part of
(08:03):
that first generation of black Americans in the entire history
of the United States who was born with full rights
of citizenship. You know, a decade before I was born,
we were in the throes of the civil rights movement
simply to have black Americans, uh be able to have
the same rights as any other American a decade before
(08:24):
I was born. And I feel a great responsibility to
not lose what my ancestors allowed me to have. That
I have to be in the fight for that, and
so I just think that that is my role. That is,
as long as I have the ability to to act,
(08:49):
I have to be acting to to preserve what was
given to me. And to repay that debt. And I
see my work at Howard as doing that the new
generations of journalists.
Speaker 5 (09:02):
And it's interesting too because your daughter is fifteen, ours
is seventeen, so you know, she is entering her senior
year of high school. So we're starting that whole college university.
You know, all of that you mentioned earlier about the
silence that's been happening a lot in these in you know,
(09:25):
in colleges and universities. Now that your daughters, and this
is to both of you all or she's because before
you blink, she's going to be in college. You've done
so much work transforming law education system. Are you concerned
about the climate of colleges and universities and is that
(09:46):
in any way informing your decision or her decision of
where she's looking at going to school.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
I mean, I'm certainly concerned, and both as a faculty,
a college faculty member, as someone who is reporting on
the impacts of this administration on black people and other
marginalized groups across the country. And yeah, as a parent, now,
my dream has been for my child to go to
(10:13):
Howard since she was three years old, So it was
never you know, as far as I'm concerned. My a
tension was never that my my daughter would go to
a PWY. And I learned, as I'm sure you all know,
as parents of a teenager, that if you want them
to do something, you better stop talking about it.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
So I call it.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
So I bringing her to Howard events, you know, brought
her to homecoming last year, took her to the Legacy Classic,
took her to my classes, and so far she also
says she wants to go to Howard. So I'm hoping that.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
She will.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
We'll be able to spend her college years and that
protective bubble of an HBCU. Not that they are utopia,
but I think, particularly in this climate, and that's why
we're seeing record enrollment at HBCUs across the country, it's
so many black parents who themselves were likely, you know,
(11:18):
among those first significant groups of people who went into
those pwis. I personally was scarred by my experience at
Notre Dame, and that's why I really wanted my own
daughter to go to an HBCU. And I think in
this political climate where you're seeing again, you know, are
most elite schools that are shuttering their multicultural centers, that
are ending their DEI practices that I feel like that
(11:41):
would be a very unwelcome environment. So I think a
lot of black parents are are making similar choices for
their kids, and I think this is a time where
where we as black communities then really need to support
and embrace our HBCUs and make sure or that they
are getting the proper funding to meet that need.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I remember our daughter having a conversation. She was like,
I want to go to and I'm not going to
name the university, but it also started with an H
and Nicole is like, I'm only paying for a HB.
Speaker 5 (12:19):
So, Nicole, that wasn't subtle at all.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
I was right, I'll support you wherever you go, but
not financially. Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
In the beginning I thought it was harsh, But when
what I really really heard from it, I got a
chance to process what that meant. You know, you know,
I hope that knowing and seeing what our pwis are
doing in terms of you know, falling to their knees
to the Trump administration, you know, we see a benefit
ensuring that our black kids are giddy. Part of their
(12:51):
quality education is the experience itself, and that the harm
that is done when a black child is isolated from
their community, and it's such isolation to the part where
they don't even see where they fit. And just because
you enroll black students, does it mean that you created
the environment for them to thrive? And so we I
(13:14):
believe I went to a HBCU, my grandmother went to HBCU,
my family went to HBCUs, my grandfather. So I feel
like it's very important and I hope that our ahbcus
do hear the call and meet that and meet that
call as well. So I thought that that by all
means we work hard. Why not take that investment much
(13:36):
higher and make sure that we investing in our HBCUs.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
It's an incredibly important conversation and one in which a
lot of black families are having right now.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed today's conversation, subscribe, share,
and follow us on at my Legacy Movement on social
media and YouTube. New episodes drop every two with bonus
content every Thursday. At its core, this podcast honors doctor
King's vision of the beloved community and the power of connection.
(14:10):
A Legacy Plus Studio production distributed by iHeartMedia. Creator and
executive producer Suzanne Hayward, co executive producer Lisa Lyle. Listen
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Craig Kielburger
Marc Kielburger
Martin Luther King III
Arndrea Waters King
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