August 19, 2025 • 41 mins
Feminist icon, journalist, and Ms. Magazine co-founder Gloria Steinem opens up about the moments that defined her life — from an unconventional childhood to the 1963 March on Washington — and how each shaped her fight for equality.
With her closest collaborator and friend Amy Richards, Gloria joins hosts Martin Luther King III, Arndrea Waters King, Marc Kielburger, and Craig Kielburger, sharing the truth behind building movements, challenging norms, and keeping hope alive across generations.
Together, they reveal how:
- Hope isn’t wishful thinking — it’s a plan for change
- Your enemies say as much about your values as your friends do
- Diversity is a gift, not an obligation
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So some hostile guy in the audience would get up
and say are you lesbians? And Flow would always say,
are you my alternative?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The feminist, trailblazer, journalist and founder of MS magazine, is
joined by her closest collaborator, Amy Richards to reveal the
stories that shaped her from her transformative moment at the
nineteen sixty three March on Washington.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
She said, they only invite us to sing, But how
come we don't get to talk.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Two decades of challenging the status quo.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Because I was engaged in trying not to get married,
so I needed to go very far away.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
She's seen it all and she's not done speaking up.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
We're at a time that doctor King's granddaughter and her
peers have progressively lost flights.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
We can't let anybody take our hopes away.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Join host Martin Luther King, the Third Area, Waters King,
Mark Kilburger, and Craig Kilberger for an unforgettable conversation on
the courage to choose your own path, the power of hope,
and the truth that still need to be spoken.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Where you once said the truth will set you free,
but first it will piss you off.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
When you say the phrase piss you off, I thank him.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
Welcome to my legacy. Today, we're joined by a global
icon who didn't just witness history, she shaped it. As
a journalist, prolific writer, organizer, and co founder of MS magazine,
Gloria Steinem gave voice to millions of women who had
been told to stay silent. And as Gloria has shown
through her decades of movement building, no one creates lasting
change alone. Joining her is her close collaborator and friend
(01:42):
Amy Richards, a writer, producer and movement builder in her
own right, who is building on the feminist legacy Gloria ignited. Gloria,
if we may say a special thank you for welcoming
us into your home. If it would be all right,
we'd love to start at the beginning here my legacy.
We take you way back, and Gloria, you had a
very unconventional childhood, not formally schooled until high school, traveling
(02:04):
on the road. You wrote about your mother and mental
health challenges, and you talked about how you are living
the life that she never had the chance to live.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I'm sure I'm not alone in being somebody who wishes
their parent could have lived the life she was born
to live. My mother did actually before I was born,
work as a journalist in Toledo at the Toledo Blade,
still a newspaper there, I think, and she loved it.
She loved it, but once she had my older sister,
(02:37):
and my older sister was about six, and my father
was also an unusual man. He had two points of pride.
He never wore a hat, which his generation was supposed
to do, and he never had a job. Those were
his two. So we were often traveling in a house
trailer in the winter time because he hated the winter,
(03:00):
to Florida or California and living in a trailer park
and so on. And that meant that I didn't go
to school very much. But I don't know. We all
have uniqueness in our childhoods in some way, and I
value things now that I didn't understand then that for instance,
(03:23):
the fact that the dance bands that my father had
were some were all white, some were all black, some
were both, but they were way less segregated than the
world around them, and they traveled around in a bus.
And also, since there were no restaurants in our rural area,
(03:46):
my mother cooked for them, so there were always, you know,
interesting people around our dining room table, and who were
all alarmingly nice to me. I think they missed their
own children. So it was a good experience.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Do you think that that also shaped how you saw
the world, Cause when you think about during that time,
to have these bands of you know, all black or
all white, or even having dinner mm together around the
table as a child, that was normal, which I think
gave you a beautiful view of the world at a
time when that necessarily was not happening.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Oh, yes, no, you're right. I I was not aware
of it, but it was a blessing.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
After my parents separated because my father kept going to
California and so on, and my mother and I were
living in Toledo, we were living in a diverse neighborhood.
And once again I don't think we were conscious of
how important that that really was, but partly because the
(04:54):
heroes of our neighborhood were the football team, right right,
we definitely had a diverse experience, so much so that
I remember thinking it was odd when I went into
someplace that was all white, you know, whereas everybody you know,
just as a kid, you know, you just asked that question.
Speaker 7 (05:15):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
And then of course after college I went to live
in India for two years. So that was another lesson
why India, because I'd taken a course in college, a rare,
very rare course about India because I was engaged in
trying not to get married, so I hadn't need I
(05:37):
needed to go very far away, because the Gandhian movement
and the civil rights movement were very intertwined and very
likely to be inspiring each other even from a distance.
Speaker 7 (05:52):
Gloria, you were young journalists in nineteen sixty three on
August twenty eighth when Dad delivered the I have a dreamspace,
and you've said, or at least called that day transformative.
What changed for you standing in that crowd witnessing that
moment or those moments?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Washington was always a kind of integrated city, except it
wasn't really integrated. So to see it actually in the
form of the march, looking like the city itself was
just incredible. And I was standing next to a woman
named Missus Green, Bless her heart. I don't know if
(06:34):
we never saw each other again, but Missus Green, a
black woman, and her daughter, and I could also see
through her eyes as well as through my own eyes,
how crucial and important this was how the capital of
our country did not belong to everybody. And that was
the first truly representative crowd I'd ever seen. And you
(06:58):
could look back there from the Monument of video, it
was like acres and acres and acres of people, So
I you know it. It was a transforming moment to
see the country as we actually looked. And there had
been a lot of delegations that came from states uh
(07:21):
w W that were way more integrated than DC itself.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I love looking at the the video from the march
on Washington because if you look at it, you'll see
cause it was such a hot day and a long day,
and right before Martin's father got up to speak, you
could see us people had been cooling their feet kind
of in the reflecting pond. People started putting their jackets
(07:46):
back on MM and and the men, would you know,
tying up their ties like almost like they were getting
ready to go to church. And if you were in
the audience that day, could you feel when you heard
the I have a Dream speech, did you know something
historical interscendent had happened?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Absolutely? He was a genius of the repetitive theme, right,
I have a dream, So it was like poetry or music.
And I was close to the front, standing next to
Missus Green and her daughter. And Missus Green was wonderful
too because she was a critic. So she was saying,
(08:25):
how come there are no women on that platform?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yes, I'm glad you bought it up.
Speaker 7 (08:30):
Right?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yes, yeah, she said, they only invite us to sing,
But how come we don't get to talk? I thought,
good point.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
You once said that Gloria is somebody that listens more
than she speaks. Could you take us back and share
us a moment or a story whereby you learn something
really important from Gloria, not through her words, but through
her actions.
Speaker 8 (08:55):
Well, I mean, there's so many things I've learned from Gloria,
and it is I would say, manner as much as
it is message and the biggest lesson. And there's many
scenes of this is not taking the bait, you know,
when somebody is sort of trying to instigate or say
or provoke or just get a rise out of you,
(09:16):
and just I mean, what Gloria does so brilliantly and
this is a truely smart person who can do this
is often find the right quip or joke to turn
it around in the moment and you know, kind of
go with humor when there's nothing, when there's when there
when the other option would be to go with kind
of engaging. And Gloria tells this story about you know,
(09:38):
being away with her two good friends, woman Mankiller who
was the chief of the Cherokee Nation who's no longer
with us, and the novelist Alice Walker, and this kind
of you know, for lack of a better word, entitled
white male was at the table and Alice just took
her plate and got up and left the room. Wilma
sort of sat there patiently for a while and then left,
(09:58):
and Gloria sat there and just kept kind of like
throw in more facts and statistics and charm him to
try to get to see And I always felt like
that story kind of summed it up. It was like,
I'm gonna change your mind, you know, whether or not.
I don't know in that instance that it did, but
I think in other instances.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
That it did.
Speaker 8 (10:17):
And I do think. You know, it's been amazing to
hear Gloria tell stories and then go back and read
articles or you know, about the March on Washington as
a case in point. You know, Gloria has also talked
about sitting up, you know, close to the you know,
Lincoln Memorial and because she had press credentials, she could
get a little bit closer than the average attendee and
remembers Mahalia Jackson saying, tell him about the dream.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
And it's so often the emotion of it. It's not
the fact of it. It's what you were feeling, you know,
when you were watching. And the kind of revelatory moment
of Missus Green next to me saying, where are the
women's speakers right?
Speaker 8 (11:00):
And that was not necessarily a consciousness that you even
had at that time, you know, to say, I.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Wasn't questioning it because I thought, you know, I was
knocked out to be there in the first place. So
she was teaching me absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
I love too that it shows too that we are
we're constant students. And I think that's what also makes
both of you all such brilliant storytellers, is that you're
listening to the stories and then translating that for your
readers and your viewers.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Well. Also, I've learned that our brains are organized on narrative.
So and there's a saying about it, tell me a
fact and a native American saying from Wilma, tell me
a fact and I'll forget. Tell me a story, and
I'll always remember, Like.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Follow and subscribe to the My Legacy podcast, and most importantly,
share this with someone who needs a reminder of their
strength today. We'll be back in a moment.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Now, back to my Legacy.
Speaker 5 (12:05):
I just thought it was so powerful reflecting on the
Marshall Washington for a moment that to your point, we
all know you as this incredible icon, but even Gloria
Steinem had to become Gloria Steinem that you were in
the audience that day and it didn't immediately leap to
you the injustice of the gender parody or lack of
parody on that stage. I just think that's so powerful
for our listeners and viewers who may feel that they're
(12:26):
not yet at your stage as awareness or movement building,
that you had to go through your journey to become
the awareness, the icon, the change maker you are.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
But as you were saying that, I was thinking that, actually,
I think it's way more common, you know. I mean,
I remember a little girl saying she was maybe six
or something, and she's saying to me, she I think
maybe she broke to me because she said, we girls
are angry as turnips, and because we never get the
(13:00):
good part of the playground. The boys get the good
part of the playground. We just get a little place
where we can play jacks over here. I thought, this
kid is going to be a revolutionary. Yes, I wonder
where she is now.
Speaker 8 (13:12):
Yes, right, And I do think that's true. If I
don't think it's true exclusively for females, but I do
think women often come to injustice on behalf of other
people before they come to injustice on behalf of themselves lue.
And so I think it's not uncommon in a women's
narratives that you'll hear that that I got angry about
kids not being equal. I got angry about the football
(13:34):
team taking all the resources. And then you're like, oh wait,
I have to get angry about myself too.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, we may overdo empathy.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
That whole thing about you know, being bold and unapologetic,
you know, and speaking up and taking space, taking spaces,
you know, just taking space as women and feeling confident
to do so.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
No, and that was really the beginning of and the
continuing theme of the a very diverse women's movement. Which
is uh one sitting in a circle, M not in
a hierarchy? To do we look like the country? If not?
Why not?
Speaker 7 (14:18):
Well?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I but when you talked about too, do we look
like a representative of the world. Because one of the
things that I loved growing up is Miss Magazine. And
it was one of the first magazines that I remember
as growing up that you could see all hues of
women MM at any given issue. It wasn't a you know,
(14:40):
like like if there was someone I'm not gonna name
a magazine that you know that was of color. On
other magazines, it became, you know, it was news in
and of itself, but at Miss, it was always eked
into the fiber of the the magazine. And so I
wanna go back to when you started Miss Magazine and
just the fact that you gave millions of women language
(15:02):
they hadn't at that point been allowed to say out loud.
What would you say? Was the boldest thing that you
did in those early years of the magazine that scared you,
but you did it anyway. Because that's one of the
things that we teach our daughter is that it's not
feeling fear, but courage is when you feel fear and
do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
When you say that, I think of something that maybe
you don't have in mind, which is advertising. And because
women's magazines were of course dependent for money and profit
and everything on advertising, and because advertising was pretty segregated
by gender too, because the car makers were not convinced
(15:43):
that women drove cars, and they even thought it devalued
cars if women were shown driving them. I mean, there
were all kinds of crazy reasons that we couldn't get
the advertising we should have got. And because I'd been
working for es work, I realized when a minute they
got this advertise, we knew what's wrong with us, and
(16:06):
we actually had to become a foundation so we could
raise money in a different way.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Oh wow, So that's how you got crossed that by
starting your own foundation that was later in existence so
that you would have to be as a dependent.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
The magazine was owned by a foundation.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Yes, right now, Amy, was there a moment that Glory
encouraged you to take a risk that you wouldn't have
taken on your own.
Speaker 8 (16:30):
Well, I don't think I wanted to be a writer necessarily.
I was an observer and I was an activist, and
I created an organization called third Wave, and through that
I was collecting a lot of stories of primarily young
people doing amazing things. We did a cross country voter
registration drive called Freedom Summer ninety two, very much inspired
by the civil rights marches that had also taken place
(16:51):
in the South. And you know, stories are compelling, and
I'd be like, somebody has to write about this. I
had a lot of journalist friends, and I'd say, you
should write about this person or this organization, and go
I was like, you should write about it. And so,
because I was not somebody who thought of myself as
a writer, it took him while. But then I did
jump in and started writing articles and you know, eventually
wrote books and so taking goodness that you did taking
(17:13):
that leap, thank you.
Speaker 6 (17:15):
But for so many baby boomers you were and gen
X women, you were the face of feminism and you
inspired millions upon tens of millions of people wanted to
ask who or what inspired you?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Along the way, I was inspired not to be the
face of feminism because I'm not. I mean, you know,
we're a big, diverse country. So it helped to give
me the courage to speak and never by myself. Dorothy
Pittman Hughes, who was a pioneer of the first childcare center. Here.
(17:49):
Flow Kennedy, the wonderful, outrageous civil rights lawyer, Flow Kennedy,
And you know, it's a whole series of people and
we on purpose spoke together. And there were certain lucky
things that I lived in India for two years after
I graduated from what was not a segregated college, but
(18:10):
was alarmingly white. So I I you know, I was
in a country that was very diverse and looked way
more like the world, and was trying to look even
more like the world. That was just lucky, and that
I could freelance, you know, as as as a writer
(18:32):
and not always make a great living, but always make
a living, which is really lucky.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
We're at the point in time in our history, so
you know, we talked about the March on Washington. If
there is nothing else that anyone can remember from the speech,
it is you know when Doctor King talked about his
four little children, well he has he had four children.
He only has one one grandchild, our our daughter Yolanda.
(18:59):
And we're we're at a time that Doctor King's granddaughter
and her peers have progressively lost rights. Yeah, the first generation,
particularly Black women, but all women, but that have lost
rights since they were born rather than gain them. That
hasn't happened since the end of reconstruction in the beginning
(19:19):
of the passage of black codes. As two women who
have been on the forefront of women's equalities and and
women's rights, are you all hopeful?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Well, first of all, I would just like to say,
we can't let anybody take our hopes away, because hope
is in itself a f a form of planning. We
can try to create in the groups and organizations and
living rooms, you know where we are groups that do
look like the country. And if they don't ask ourselves,
(19:53):
how come why not?
Speaker 9 (19:54):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:55):
What are what are we missing here? We can find
different paths to that. I mean Wilma Mankiller, the chief
of the Cherokee nation, for instance, was a great as
you know, as she said, the only good thing Europeans
brought was the horse. Was always a great force for
(20:18):
representativeness and also just selfishness. I mean, we do not
learn from sameness. We learn from difference. Diversity is a gift,
it's not. It drives me crazy that it's viewed as
an obligation or something painful. It's totally a gift.
Speaker 8 (20:37):
And yet living in a more diverse world is what
is exactly threatening to some people. Yes, right now, that
makes it harder, but I do feel just to answer that,
I do feel optimistic that there is a lot of
change that can still happen in the world. And I
was at an event two nights in a row, and
I did look around and I felt like I was
seeing the benefits of twenty sixteen. Meaning I think that
(21:02):
what happened to the twenty sixteen election was that somebody
got elected that nobody thought would get elected, and a
lot of people thought, oh my gosh, if that person
can do it, I can do it. And there's obviously
a lot of other negative responses that came, but I
thought that that was a positive one. And I looked
around this room. And even when I graduated from college
in nineteen ninety two, and a lot of my peers
felt like in order to be respected, in order to
(21:25):
be successful, you had to be exceptional. And I don't
want to undermine the accomplishments of women today, but I
think that now there is a narrative that you can
be good enough and be successful. And I think that
that makes the opportunities so much more democratic and available
to a lot more people. I mean, Melinda Gates was
telling the story that you know, she knew that she
was going after a certain level of success when she
(21:46):
was in high school and she was mad at her
parents for not sending her to a certain high school
in Dallas, where she was from, and realizing that the
only other than workaround was for her to become valedictorian,
because that was the way to kind of sign or
you know, to kind of signal that she was exceptional.
And I do think that, yes, it's still great for
people of those ambitions to be that, but I think
(22:07):
you're still gonna be rewarded and appreciated even if you're
not valedictorian for as a woman, you know, I think
that there was a moment where that's what you had
to do. And so I'm hopeful that there are just
more people doing more things and that that's gonna it's
gonna carry us.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
One thing I have seen with younger women over the
last couple of years in particular, is even more of
a resoluteness. I think that you know that there was
as some of the older women were like, oh my goodness,
what's going there seemed to be this new fire and
urgency and resoluteness that I've seen with with younger women,
(22:44):
and that that's.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
What gives me hope.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
MM. I think that we're in We're in great hands with.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
What where are you seeing at especially in schools or
in work? Through your daughter?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Definitely through our daughter, through the conversations that that we
had because one of the hardest calls that I had
to make after the election, and not because of Kamala
Harris not winning, but because of having to talk to
my daughter in that same conversation that's that black women
(23:21):
have had so many times with our daughters that you
are good enough.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
MM.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
You know that I'm sorry that maybe the world is
not ready for, you know, to see your brilliance in
your light. And so I think I was approaching it
kind of from that that battle had like, oh, you know,
but what I've seen even within that conversation, our daughter
approached it from oh, we're going to Yah, you don't
(23:49):
have to apologize to us, because we are going to
absolutely continue the march and finish what was started. Like
this has made us not give up, This has n
made us even more I've seen more girls talk about
changing their major m even in in college, and they
want to major more in in t in storytelling, in law,
(24:11):
to understand the law, because as our daughter says, you
have to understand the law so you can change the law.
So the ways in which they're preparing themselves, the ways
in which they're organizing. As we're talking to activists, young
girl activists around the nation, they seem more focused and
ready to organize and to really show how bold and
(24:33):
and unapologetic and they're ready to take up space.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Mm okay, I'm ready to vote for your daughter.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
And that's what these young women are are like, you
know now they're and I people think a lot about
Martin's father when they when they see her and I
see her grandmother. You when you talk earlier about the
fact of you know, we're we kind of live out
sometimes our parents wishes. I seem as glorious as her grandmother,
(25:02):
Kreta Scott King wasn't as much as she did. I
even I see her in her granddaughter that I'm even gonna,
you know, even more so or continue to stand up
and to stand out and keep moving it forward.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
But also I'm just thinking while you're saying that of
Karta and I sitting in the LaGuardia Airport talking, what
she wanted to do was go dancing. Yes, so we
have to your daughter has to if she wants to
also go down.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Trust me, she she does.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
She does.
Speaker 8 (25:39):
And Credit spoke at the seventy seven Houston Conference, the
nineteen seventy seven Houston Conference and kind of brought the
house down.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
And I love too, though, because that is important. And
that's one of the things that we hope to give you, Alanda,
the freedom also to have the fun that goes back
to your point of living. Our parents' lives, you know,
in full glory all that they thought that they couldn't do.
So yes, we hope for her a lot of dancing
and trust me, she gets it in.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
She gets it in. Now.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Now, you've spoken openly about getting abortion when it was illegal,
and you said that it didn't define you, but it
did shape you. What's one thing that you wish people
understood better about that part of your story?
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well as Flow Kennedy always said, if men could get pregnant,
abortion would be a sacrament. So the beginning of democracy
is that we get to make decisions over our own
physical selves. And you know, I D I don't think
that that's the projection really either, because men assume it
(26:48):
and women still don't have it. I'm not sure, but
I I I do think we need to emphasize it
more that we get to make decisions over our own bodies.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Well.
Speaker 8 (26:58):
And the doctor who performed your abortion, you know, made
you promise two things. It was that you wouldn't reveal
his name.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Oh yeah, and then I and then I would do
what I wanted to do with my life. How great
is that? I think that commitment is.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
That also then helped shape shape you and shape you
at getting you know through that too?
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Like to have that?
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Can you think about so many.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Women don't know? I dedicated a book to him. Yeah,
probably long after he was able to appreciate it.
Speaker 9 (27:33):
But anyway, like follow and subscribe to my Legacy podcast
and most importantly share this with someone who needs their
reminder of.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Their strength today back in a moment.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
Now back to my legacy. You once said the truth
will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
I love that quote. What's the truth that absolutely pissed
you off? And how do that inspire you?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Well? When you say the phrase piss you off. I
think of Trump.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
How does that aspire you?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Well, I mean getting rid of him inspires me, you know.
I mean we're in Manhattan where like ninety six percent
of people are against him because we know, right, And
I think that's really important for reasons that are not
necessarily part of our press or you know stories. I mean,
(28:34):
we are we either have just become or on the
verge of becoming a majority people of color country. And
I think that those folks who say you will now
replace us are thinking of that, and that is awful,
you know. I mean that's crazy. I mean, that's anti democratic,
it's anti everything we hope for. But it doesn't get
(28:59):
named enough, including about Trump.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
I mean, if I could pull you into this conversation,
because when I look at Gloria's legacy, I think of
how much work that you that she has spent engaging
the next generation, including literally co founding take our Daughters
to work. You know, that incredible movement. And Amy, I
look at you reaching across generations, continuing that movement, continuing
(29:25):
to redefine it and reinvent it constantly. And I'm curious,
from your point of view, Amy, why does Gloria's message
still so deeply resonate with the current generation, even though
this is now spanning decades.
Speaker 8 (29:38):
I mean, I think that what Gloria says has had
profound impact, and what she writes has that profound impact.
And there's very few people who have one liners like
Gloria does, and you know, is infinitely quotable. But I
think that the most important example that Gloria has given
across generations is just her example of how she lives
(29:59):
her lives. I mean, living independently, you know, as a
single woman, making her own income, getting up, you know,
even when it was terrifying, and speaking in public, and
you know, it was more what she was doing that
I think is and in her generation that was bolder
and braver because it was less popular of a choice
(30:21):
and therefore less accessible of a choice, and a lot
of women who thought, oh if only I could do that.
And I think, you know, my generation, younger generations definitely
have more examples of how that is possible. But it's
still a threatening choice to make, the unconventional choice, and
it also is still a financial reality that not many
women can afford to live in. I mean, most women
(30:44):
I know who have some level of financial success, married
it or inherited it. So there's still few examples of
women being able to live truly independent life. So I
think it's just that example that is one that resonates
across generations.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
As you're saying that, I'm thinking about the more people
would do it if they understood the real life rewards.
Maybe we should write about it, you know, because people
stop you in the street, you know, and say thank
you for this or that.
Speaker 8 (31:15):
I mean, it's a simplification to say this, but I
think Gloria made being different okay, And I think that
a lot of other people either we're yeah and the
only other person and you're gonna laugh when.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
I give us.
Speaker 8 (31:29):
Example that I've seen that has a similar kind of
on the street reaction in the airport reaction is the
skateboarder Tony Hawk, And it's because because skateboarding was this
weird thing that loser kids did, and he made it like, no,
you can do it, and you can make a career
out of it, you can be successful at it, you
can make you can have fun while you're doing it.
(31:50):
And I think that that is you know, not you
know it is the it's doing it and doing it
graciously and gracefully too. That is, I think.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
That I've never compared myself to the skateboard I know,
I'm so impressed.
Speaker 8 (32:07):
I think he would also compare himself to you, So
that's a good I.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Think it also means too that not only did you
make it okay, but you also made it cool, like
to be yourself and to be independent and to be
like so then it really became this path and it
became a cool thing, and so therefore even more acceptable.
Speaker 8 (32:28):
It is funny how people still use these shoulds to
like define their lives. I mean, I'm not legally married,
but I have like the most heteronormative life and I
even have like a station wagon and a dog.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
So but the.
Speaker 8 (32:42):
Friends who and just other people in the world who
were the most threatened by it were people who wanted
to make different choices but didn't feel invited to or
that they could. And there's this I get this sense
of like, oh, I would have done that too, but
my parents wouldn't have allowed it, or and I think
that again, like Gloria didn't you know, yes, she's radical
in the sense of she's going to the root on
(33:03):
these issues, but you just did it without apologizing for
what you were doing. And I think that that is
people still want like permission to do something that's outside
of the box. And if only I could, And I think,
you know Gloria's examples, well I did you know? She
would never say that, but I think that it is.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
You know, you have also been the source of attacks.
It hasn't been easy. We get to sit here and
praise you now, you.
Speaker 10 (33:28):
Know, which is great, I have to say, but you
know there, you know, when you look at the vitriol
that's come your way, you know, how did that you
and how did you overcome that?
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Well, when you say that to me, I imagine because
when Dorothy Pittman Hughes or Flow Kennedy or you know,
when we were speaking together, which actually we started out
partly because I was afraid to speak by myself, also
because I didn't want the women's movement to be presented
(34:00):
by one white woman. You know that at least we
could have a little diversity. So some hostile guy in
the audience would get up, and you know when Dorothy
or Flow Kennedy we were speaking together and say are
you lesbians? And Flow would always say, are you my alternative,
(34:21):
and it was.
Speaker 8 (34:25):
Gluri would also respond with fact and Flow would say,
if you have a truck on your leg, it doesn't
matter how much the truck weighs. Get the truck off
my leg. Glour would always try to arm with stormline statistics.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I mean I did it out of both fear and friendship,
you know, because I was afraid to do by myself
and we were friends. But it taught me a lesson
about how important it is to do things together. That
illustrates whatever it is you're trying to say.
Speaker 8 (34:55):
But I will say that you know, another lesson that
you have taught is you know you know some you know,
your enemies also say a lot about you. And there's
a lot of out there that I want as my
enemy because I don't want to be on their side,
to be on their side.
Speaker 6 (35:09):
Can you say that again?
Speaker 1 (35:10):
That was brilliant The enemies.
Speaker 8 (35:13):
You want them as enemies because you don't want them
to be on your side. And I think that the
heart and this is I can speak personally about this.
I think the harder criticism is when it comes from
people that are around you. And and you know, criticism
is one thing, but the hatred or the hatred is
maybe too extreme for a word. The undermining or the jealousy,
(35:34):
and I'm sure you and I'm sure you experience this.
I'm sure you're I'm sure your parents experience this. But
the hardest thing for me to watch is when supposed
allies of Glorias will kind of try to subtly undermine
her or be mean to her, and you know and
quite frankly jealous of you know, maybe that she can
withstand certain things that other people can and that's so
(35:56):
I think the vitriol that comes maybe that's too extreme
for But I would say the more latent, like passive
aggressiveness that comes from the people that are supposed to
be your friends and your allies is kind of the hardest.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
How do you deal with it?
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Well? Fortunately I have Amy. Yeah, No, I mean you
friends are chosen family, right, and you always need this circle,
but sometimes you need it more than before. You know,
(36:31):
when you're really feeling unjustly accused or wounded or ridiculed
or whatever it is. So you need to be willing
to ask for help or ask for comfort or say, okay,
am I fucking up? Here? Is that the problem? If so?
(36:53):
Tell me, you know you need that.
Speaker 8 (36:55):
One of the punishments of being a recognizable person, and
I'm sure you've experienced this in your own lives, is
that people stop telling you the truth. You know, either
because they're they're in a position to try to protect you,
or because you think that you're above it, so they're like,
I'm not gonna I mean, I'll never forget being at
a table with the famous person. They had food in
their teeth and nobody was telling them, and I was like,
(37:17):
excuse me, you have food, you have spinach in your teeth,
and you know, just subtle things like that. And I
do think that that honesty and being able to say, Gloria,
you shouldn't have said that, or you know, you know,
is something that you really need when you are in
a higher profile position.
Speaker 7 (37:33):
Lauria, what have you learned from Amy about how the
next generation leads differently and what gives you hope watching them?
Speaker 1 (37:43):
We just did a speaking thing together, sort of. I mean,
Amy was asking me questions and and and we work
together a lot, but I don't always get to see
her in public, and I thought to myself, this woman
is brilliant. Think you right. Hopefully we're able to continue
(38:05):
to appreciate each other in different ways and also constructively
criticized to help us become better. Not be afraid to
do that, and that is like the very best part
of a family. We do it with our children, I think,
even though I don't, but we sometimes forget to do
(38:27):
it with our friends.
Speaker 11 (38:29):
We're so inspired being in your home, I just can't
have to ask you a very personal question. Behind the
kings is a beautiful photo for those who are not
able to watch and see of an elephant being very
close to maybe a young monk or a young person
who's reading. I see elephants here, I see beautiful door
from India. I see elephants of course too, are left.
What do you love most about elephants?
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Elephants are my totem. You know, they're huge, they're gentle,
they don't hurt anything, they don't kill anything. They eat
the bark off trees. They're matrilineal, very kind of ideal
people lovely.
Speaker 8 (39:03):
Someone just reshared this photo yesterday for Gloria's eightieth birthday.
Group people had gone to Botswana, and some of those people,
including Gloria and another friend, had been to the same
location maybe eight years before, and the oldest in the group.
Kathy came right up to Gloria and this other woman
and took the trunk and wrapped around the two of them.
(39:25):
Someone just reshared the photo yesterday, but it is you know,
they don't forget.
Speaker 5 (39:29):
Well, it's been such a privilege to watch this friendship
and a privilege to be able to sit in your home.
I just want to say that alone is a pinch
myself moments and listening to the two.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Of you have talking circles here all the time.
Speaker 8 (39:44):
It's not that unique.
Speaker 5 (39:47):
But in this conversation, in this podcast, in this broadcast,
we get a chance to sit with icons when you
pause and look in your life, just to reflect the
gratitude as we come to a close, your life has
taught and shown through action. Change is hard. Change happens
across decades, It happens across generations. It happens in homes
(40:08):
and kitchens and frontlines and pickets and workplaces and magazines
and printing, and it happens across multiple aspects. You remind
us that the need to constantly choose hope, to constantly
bring friendship and laughter and joy into conversations, and to
continuously not be defined by others' expectations. And it's been
(40:32):
such a privilege to be a witness to your friendship. Obviously,
to live in a world that you helped shape. The
world owes your debtic gratitude, and we all owe you
a debt of gratitude for joining us on my Legacy
and sharing your legacy with us. Thank you both today.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Thank you for joining us. If you enjoy today's conversation, subscribe, share,
and follow us on at my Legacy movement on social
media and YouTube. New episodes drop every Tuesday, with bonus
content every Thursday. At its core, this podcast honors doctor
King's vision of the beloved community and the power of connection.
(41:12):
A Legacy Plus Studio production distributed by iHeartMedia creator and
executive producer Suzanne Hayward co executive producer Lisa Lyle. Listen
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
So some hostile guy in the audience would get up
and say are you lesbians? And Flow would always say,
are you my alternative?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The feminist, trailblazer, journalist and founder of MS magazine, is
joined by her closest collaborator, Amy Richards to reveal the
stories that shaped her from her transformative moment at the
nineteen sixty three March on Washington.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
She said, they only invite us to sing, But how
come we don't get to talk.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Two decades of challenging the status quo.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Because I was engaged in trying not to get married,
so I needed to go very far away.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
She's seen it all and she's not done speaking up.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
We're at a time that doctor King's granddaughter and her
peers have progressively lost flights.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
We can't let anybody take our hopes away.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Join host Martin Luther King, the Third Area, Waters King,
Mark Kilburger, and Craig Kilberger for an unforgettable conversation on
the courage to choose your own path, the power of hope,
and the truth that still need to be spoken.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Where you once said the truth will set you free,
but first it will piss you off.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
When you say the phrase piss you off, I thank him.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
Welcome to my legacy. Today, we're joined by a global
icon who didn't just witness history, she shaped it. As
a journalist, prolific writer, organizer, and co founder of MS magazine,
Gloria Steinem gave voice to millions of women who had
been told to stay silent. And as Gloria has shown
through her decades of movement building, no one creates lasting
change alone. Joining her is her close collaborator and friend
(01:42):
Amy Richards, a writer, producer and movement builder in her
own right, who is building on the feminist legacy Gloria ignited. Gloria,
if we may say a special thank you for welcoming
us into your home. If it would be all right,
we'd love to start at the beginning here my legacy.
We take you way back, and Gloria, you had a
very unconventional childhood, not formally schooled until high school, traveling
(02:04):
on the road. You wrote about your mother and mental
health challenges, and you talked about how you are living
the life that she never had the chance to live.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I'm sure I'm not alone in being somebody who wishes
their parent could have lived the life she was born
to live. My mother did actually before I was born,
work as a journalist in Toledo at the Toledo Blade,
still a newspaper there, I think, and she loved it.
She loved it, but once she had my older sister,
(02:37):
and my older sister was about six, and my father
was also an unusual man. He had two points of pride.
He never wore a hat, which his generation was supposed
to do, and he never had a job. Those were
his two. So we were often traveling in a house
trailer in the winter time because he hated the winter,
(03:00):
to Florida or California and living in a trailer park
and so on. And that meant that I didn't go
to school very much. But I don't know. We all
have uniqueness in our childhoods in some way, and I
value things now that I didn't understand then that for instance,
(03:23):
the fact that the dance bands that my father had
were some were all white, some were all black, some
were both, but they were way less segregated than the
world around them, and they traveled around in a bus.
And also, since there were no restaurants in our rural area,
(03:46):
my mother cooked for them, so there were always, you know,
interesting people around our dining room table, and who were
all alarmingly nice to me. I think they missed their
own children. So it was a good experience.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Do you think that that also shaped how you saw
the world, Cause when you think about during that time,
to have these bands of you know, all black or
all white, or even having dinner mm together around the
table as a child, that was normal, which I think
gave you a beautiful view of the world at a
time when that necessarily was not happening.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Oh, yes, no, you're right. I I was not aware
of it, but it was a blessing.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
After my parents separated because my father kept going to
California and so on, and my mother and I were
living in Toledo, we were living in a diverse neighborhood.
And once again I don't think we were conscious of
how important that that really was, but partly because the
(04:54):
heroes of our neighborhood were the football team, right right,
we definitely had a diverse experience, so much so that
I remember thinking it was odd when I went into
someplace that was all white, you know, whereas everybody you know,
just as a kid, you know, you just asked that question.
Speaker 7 (05:15):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
And then of course after college I went to live
in India for two years. So that was another lesson
why India, because I'd taken a course in college, a rare,
very rare course about India because I was engaged in
trying not to get married, so I hadn't need I
(05:37):
needed to go very far away, because the Gandhian movement
and the civil rights movement were very intertwined and very
likely to be inspiring each other even from a distance.
Speaker 7 (05:52):
Gloria, you were young journalists in nineteen sixty three on
August twenty eighth when Dad delivered the I have a dreamspace,
and you've said, or at least called that day transformative.
What changed for you standing in that crowd witnessing that
moment or those moments?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Washington was always a kind of integrated city, except it
wasn't really integrated. So to see it actually in the
form of the march, looking like the city itself was
just incredible. And I was standing next to a woman
named Missus Green, Bless her heart. I don't know if
(06:34):
we never saw each other again, but Missus Green, a
black woman, and her daughter, and I could also see
through her eyes as well as through my own eyes,
how crucial and important this was how the capital of
our country did not belong to everybody. And that was
the first truly representative crowd I'd ever seen. And you
(06:58):
could look back there from the Monument of video, it
was like acres and acres and acres of people, So
I you know it. It was a transforming moment to
see the country as we actually looked. And there had
been a lot of delegations that came from states uh
(07:21):
w W that were way more integrated than DC itself.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I love looking at the the video from the march
on Washington because if you look at it, you'll see
cause it was such a hot day and a long day,
and right before Martin's father got up to speak, you
could see us people had been cooling their feet kind
of in the reflecting pond. People started putting their jackets
(07:46):
back on MM and and the men, would you know,
tying up their ties like almost like they were getting
ready to go to church. And if you were in
the audience that day, could you feel when you heard
the I have a Dream speech, did you know something
historical interscendent had happened?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Absolutely? He was a genius of the repetitive theme, right,
I have a dream, So it was like poetry or music.
And I was close to the front, standing next to
Missus Green and her daughter. And Missus Green was wonderful
too because she was a critic. So she was saying,
(08:25):
how come there are no women on that platform?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yes, I'm glad you bought it up.
Speaker 7 (08:30):
Right?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yes, yeah, she said, they only invite us to sing,
But how come we don't get to talk? I thought,
good point.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
You once said that Gloria is somebody that listens more
than she speaks. Could you take us back and share
us a moment or a story whereby you learn something
really important from Gloria, not through her words, but through
her actions.
Speaker 8 (08:55):
Well, I mean, there's so many things I've learned from Gloria,
and it is I would say, manner as much as
it is message and the biggest lesson. And there's many
scenes of this is not taking the bait, you know,
when somebody is sort of trying to instigate or say
or provoke or just get a rise out of you,
(09:16):
and just I mean, what Gloria does so brilliantly and
this is a truely smart person who can do this
is often find the right quip or joke to turn
it around in the moment and you know, kind of
go with humor when there's nothing, when there's when there
when the other option would be to go with kind
of engaging. And Gloria tells this story about you know,
(09:38):
being away with her two good friends, woman Mankiller who
was the chief of the Cherokee Nation who's no longer
with us, and the novelist Alice Walker, and this kind
of you know, for lack of a better word, entitled
white male was at the table and Alice just took
her plate and got up and left the room. Wilma
sort of sat there patiently for a while and then left,
(09:58):
and Gloria sat there and just kept kind of like
throw in more facts and statistics and charm him to
try to get to see And I always felt like
that story kind of summed it up. It was like,
I'm gonna change your mind, you know, whether or not.
I don't know in that instance that it did, but
I think in other instances.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
That it did.
Speaker 8 (10:17):
And I do think. You know, it's been amazing to
hear Gloria tell stories and then go back and read
articles or you know, about the March on Washington as
a case in point. You know, Gloria has also talked
about sitting up, you know, close to the you know,
Lincoln Memorial and because she had press credentials, she could
get a little bit closer than the average attendee and
remembers Mahalia Jackson saying, tell him about the dream.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
And it's so often the emotion of it. It's not
the fact of it. It's what you were feeling, you know,
when you were watching. And the kind of revelatory moment
of Missus Green next to me saying, where are the
women's speakers right?
Speaker 8 (11:00):
And that was not necessarily a consciousness that you even
had at that time, you know, to say, I.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Wasn't questioning it because I thought, you know, I was
knocked out to be there in the first place. So
she was teaching me absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
I love too that it shows too that we are
we're constant students. And I think that's what also makes
both of you all such brilliant storytellers, is that you're
listening to the stories and then translating that for your
readers and your viewers.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Well. Also, I've learned that our brains are organized on narrative.
So and there's a saying about it, tell me a
fact and a native American saying from Wilma, tell me
a fact and I'll forget. Tell me a story, and
I'll always remember, Like.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Follow and subscribe to the My Legacy podcast, and most importantly,
share this with someone who needs a reminder of their
strength today. We'll be back in a moment.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Now, back to my Legacy.
Speaker 5 (12:05):
I just thought it was so powerful reflecting on the
Marshall Washington for a moment that to your point, we
all know you as this incredible icon, but even Gloria
Steinem had to become Gloria Steinem that you were in
the audience that day and it didn't immediately leap to
you the injustice of the gender parody or lack of
parody on that stage. I just think that's so powerful
for our listeners and viewers who may feel that they're
(12:26):
not yet at your stage as awareness or movement building,
that you had to go through your journey to become
the awareness, the icon, the change maker you are.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
But as you were saying that, I was thinking that, actually,
I think it's way more common, you know. I mean,
I remember a little girl saying she was maybe six
or something, and she's saying to me, she I think
maybe she broke to me because she said, we girls
are angry as turnips, and because we never get the
(13:00):
good part of the playground. The boys get the good
part of the playground. We just get a little place
where we can play jacks over here. I thought, this
kid is going to be a revolutionary. Yes, I wonder
where she is now.
Speaker 8 (13:12):
Yes, right, And I do think that's true. If I
don't think it's true exclusively for females, but I do
think women often come to injustice on behalf of other
people before they come to injustice on behalf of themselves lue.
And so I think it's not uncommon in a women's
narratives that you'll hear that that I got angry about
kids not being equal. I got angry about the football
(13:34):
team taking all the resources. And then you're like, oh wait,
I have to get angry about myself too.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, we may overdo empathy.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
That whole thing about you know, being bold and unapologetic,
you know, and speaking up and taking space, taking spaces,
you know, just taking space as women and feeling confident
to do so.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
No, and that was really the beginning of and the
continuing theme of the a very diverse women's movement. Which
is uh one sitting in a circle, M not in
a hierarchy? To do we look like the country? If not?
Why not?
Speaker 7 (14:18):
Well?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I but when you talked about too, do we look
like a representative of the world. Because one of the
things that I loved growing up is Miss Magazine. And
it was one of the first magazines that I remember
as growing up that you could see all hues of
women MM at any given issue. It wasn't a you know,
(14:40):
like like if there was someone I'm not gonna name
a magazine that you know that was of color. On
other magazines, it became, you know, it was news in
and of itself, but at Miss, it was always eked
into the fiber of the the magazine. And so I
wanna go back to when you started Miss Magazine and
just the fact that you gave millions of women language
(15:02):
they hadn't at that point been allowed to say out loud.
What would you say? Was the boldest thing that you
did in those early years of the magazine that scared you,
but you did it anyway. Because that's one of the
things that we teach our daughter is that it's not
feeling fear, but courage is when you feel fear and
do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
When you say that, I think of something that maybe
you don't have in mind, which is advertising. And because
women's magazines were of course dependent for money and profit
and everything on advertising, and because advertising was pretty segregated
by gender too, because the car makers were not convinced
(15:43):
that women drove cars, and they even thought it devalued
cars if women were shown driving them. I mean, there
were all kinds of crazy reasons that we couldn't get
the advertising we should have got. And because I'd been
working for es work, I realized when a minute they
got this advertise, we knew what's wrong with us, and
(16:06):
we actually had to become a foundation so we could
raise money in a different way.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Oh wow, So that's how you got crossed that by
starting your own foundation that was later in existence so
that you would have to be as a dependent.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
The magazine was owned by a foundation.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Yes, right now, Amy, was there a moment that Glory
encouraged you to take a risk that you wouldn't have
taken on your own.
Speaker 8 (16:30):
Well, I don't think I wanted to be a writer necessarily.
I was an observer and I was an activist, and
I created an organization called third Wave, and through that
I was collecting a lot of stories of primarily young
people doing amazing things. We did a cross country voter
registration drive called Freedom Summer ninety two, very much inspired
by the civil rights marches that had also taken place
(16:51):
in the South. And you know, stories are compelling, and
I'd be like, somebody has to write about this. I
had a lot of journalist friends, and I'd say, you
should write about this person or this organization, and go
I was like, you should write about it. And so,
because I was not somebody who thought of myself as
a writer, it took him while. But then I did
jump in and started writing articles and you know, eventually
wrote books and so taking goodness that you did taking
(17:13):
that leap, thank you.
Speaker 6 (17:15):
But for so many baby boomers you were and gen
X women, you were the face of feminism and you
inspired millions upon tens of millions of people wanted to
ask who or what inspired you?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Along the way, I was inspired not to be the
face of feminism because I'm not. I mean, you know,
we're a big, diverse country. So it helped to give
me the courage to speak and never by myself. Dorothy
Pittman Hughes, who was a pioneer of the first childcare center. Here.
(17:49):
Flow Kennedy, the wonderful, outrageous civil rights lawyer, Flow Kennedy,
And you know, it's a whole series of people and
we on purpose spoke together. And there were certain lucky
things that I lived in India for two years after
I graduated from what was not a segregated college, but
(18:10):
was alarmingly white. So I I you know, I was
in a country that was very diverse and looked way
more like the world, and was trying to look even
more like the world. That was just lucky, and that
I could freelance, you know, as as as a writer
(18:32):
and not always make a great living, but always make
a living, which is really lucky.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
We're at the point in time in our history, so
you know, we talked about the March on Washington. If
there is nothing else that anyone can remember from the speech,
it is you know when Doctor King talked about his
four little children, well he has he had four children.
He only has one one grandchild, our our daughter Yolanda.
(18:59):
And we're we're at a time that Doctor King's granddaughter
and her peers have progressively lost rights. Yeah, the first generation,
particularly Black women, but all women, but that have lost
rights since they were born rather than gain them. That
hasn't happened since the end of reconstruction in the beginning
(19:19):
of the passage of black codes. As two women who
have been on the forefront of women's equalities and and
women's rights, are you all hopeful?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Well, first of all, I would just like to say,
we can't let anybody take our hopes away, because hope
is in itself a f a form of planning. We
can try to create in the groups and organizations and
living rooms, you know where we are groups that do
look like the country. And if they don't ask ourselves,
(19:53):
how come why not?
Speaker 9 (19:54):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:55):
What are what are we missing here? We can find
different paths to that. I mean Wilma Mankiller, the chief
of the Cherokee nation, for instance, was a great as
you know, as she said, the only good thing Europeans
brought was the horse. Was always a great force for
(20:18):
representativeness and also just selfishness. I mean, we do not
learn from sameness. We learn from difference. Diversity is a gift,
it's not. It drives me crazy that it's viewed as
an obligation or something painful. It's totally a gift.
Speaker 8 (20:37):
And yet living in a more diverse world is what
is exactly threatening to some people. Yes, right now, that
makes it harder, but I do feel just to answer that,
I do feel optimistic that there is a lot of
change that can still happen in the world. And I
was at an event two nights in a row, and
I did look around and I felt like I was
seeing the benefits of twenty sixteen. Meaning I think that
(21:02):
what happened to the twenty sixteen election was that somebody
got elected that nobody thought would get elected, and a
lot of people thought, oh my gosh, if that person
can do it, I can do it. And there's obviously
a lot of other negative responses that came, but I
thought that that was a positive one. And I looked
around this room. And even when I graduated from college
in nineteen ninety two, and a lot of my peers
felt like in order to be respected, in order to
(21:25):
be successful, you had to be exceptional. And I don't
want to undermine the accomplishments of women today, but I
think that now there is a narrative that you can
be good enough and be successful. And I think that
that makes the opportunities so much more democratic and available
to a lot more people. I mean, Melinda Gates was
telling the story that you know, she knew that she
was going after a certain level of success when she
(21:46):
was in high school and she was mad at her
parents for not sending her to a certain high school
in Dallas, where she was from, and realizing that the
only other than workaround was for her to become valedictorian,
because that was the way to kind of sign or
you know, to kind of signal that she was exceptional.
And I do think that, yes, it's still great for
people of those ambitions to be that, but I think
(22:07):
you're still gonna be rewarded and appreciated even if you're
not valedictorian for as a woman, you know, I think
that there was a moment where that's what you had
to do. And so I'm hopeful that there are just
more people doing more things and that that's gonna it's
gonna carry us.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
One thing I have seen with younger women over the
last couple of years in particular, is even more of
a resoluteness. I think that you know that there was
as some of the older women were like, oh my goodness,
what's going there seemed to be this new fire and
urgency and resoluteness that I've seen with with younger women,
(22:44):
and that that's.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
What gives me hope.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
MM. I think that we're in We're in great hands with.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
What where are you seeing at especially in schools or
in work? Through your daughter?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Definitely through our daughter, through the conversations that that we
had because one of the hardest calls that I had
to make after the election, and not because of Kamala
Harris not winning, but because of having to talk to
my daughter in that same conversation that's that black women
(23:21):
have had so many times with our daughters that you
are good enough.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
MM.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
You know that I'm sorry that maybe the world is
not ready for, you know, to see your brilliance in
your light. And so I think I was approaching it
kind of from that that battle had like, oh, you know,
but what I've seen even within that conversation, our daughter
approached it from oh, we're going to Yah, you don't
(23:49):
have to apologize to us, because we are going to
absolutely continue the march and finish what was started. Like
this has made us not give up, This has n
made us even more I've seen more girls talk about
changing their major m even in in college, and they
want to major more in in t in storytelling, in law,
(24:11):
to understand the law, because as our daughter says, you
have to understand the law so you can change the law.
So the ways in which they're preparing themselves, the ways
in which they're organizing. As we're talking to activists, young
girl activists around the nation, they seem more focused and
ready to organize and to really show how bold and
(24:33):
and unapologetic and they're ready to take up space.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Mm okay, I'm ready to vote for your daughter.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
And that's what these young women are are like, you
know now they're and I people think a lot about
Martin's father when they when they see her and I
see her grandmother. You when you talk earlier about the
fact of you know, we're we kind of live out
sometimes our parents wishes. I seem as glorious as her grandmother,
(25:02):
Kreta Scott King wasn't as much as she did. I
even I see her in her granddaughter that I'm even gonna,
you know, even more so or continue to stand up
and to stand out and keep moving it forward.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
But also I'm just thinking while you're saying that of
Karta and I sitting in the LaGuardia Airport talking, what
she wanted to do was go dancing. Yes, so we
have to your daughter has to if she wants to
also go down.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Trust me, she she does.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
She does.
Speaker 8 (25:39):
And Credit spoke at the seventy seven Houston Conference, the
nineteen seventy seven Houston Conference and kind of brought the
house down.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
And I love too, though, because that is important. And
that's one of the things that we hope to give you, Alanda,
the freedom also to have the fun that goes back
to your point of living. Our parents' lives, you know,
in full glory all that they thought that they couldn't do.
So yes, we hope for her a lot of dancing
and trust me, she gets it in.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
She gets it in. Now.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Now, you've spoken openly about getting abortion when it was illegal,
and you said that it didn't define you, but it
did shape you. What's one thing that you wish people
understood better about that part of your story?
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well as Flow Kennedy always said, if men could get pregnant,
abortion would be a sacrament. So the beginning of democracy
is that we get to make decisions over our own
physical selves. And you know, I D I don't think
that that's the projection really either, because men assume it
(26:48):
and women still don't have it. I'm not sure, but
I I I do think we need to emphasize it
more that we get to make decisions over our own bodies.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Well.
Speaker 8 (26:58):
And the doctor who performed your abortion, you know, made
you promise two things. It was that you wouldn't reveal
his name.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Oh yeah, and then I and then I would do
what I wanted to do with my life. How great
is that? I think that commitment is.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
That also then helped shape shape you and shape you
at getting you know through that too?
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Like to have that?
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Can you think about so many.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Women don't know? I dedicated a book to him. Yeah,
probably long after he was able to appreciate it.
Speaker 9 (27:33):
But anyway, like follow and subscribe to my Legacy podcast
and most importantly share this with someone who needs their
reminder of.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Their strength today back in a moment.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
Now back to my legacy. You once said the truth
will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
I love that quote. What's the truth that absolutely pissed
you off? And how do that inspire you?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Well? When you say the phrase piss you off. I
think of Trump.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
How does that aspire you?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Well, I mean getting rid of him inspires me, you know.
I mean we're in Manhattan where like ninety six percent
of people are against him because we know, right, And
I think that's really important for reasons that are not
necessarily part of our press or you know stories. I mean,
(28:34):
we are we either have just become or on the
verge of becoming a majority people of color country. And
I think that those folks who say you will now
replace us are thinking of that, and that is awful,
you know. I mean that's crazy. I mean, that's anti democratic,
it's anti everything we hope for. But it doesn't get
(28:59):
named enough, including about Trump.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
I mean, if I could pull you into this conversation,
because when I look at Gloria's legacy, I think of
how much work that you that she has spent engaging
the next generation, including literally co founding take our Daughters
to work. You know, that incredible movement. And Amy, I
look at you reaching across generations, continuing that movement, continuing
(29:25):
to redefine it and reinvent it constantly. And I'm curious,
from your point of view, Amy, why does Gloria's message
still so deeply resonate with the current generation, even though
this is now spanning decades.
Speaker 8 (29:38):
I mean, I think that what Gloria says has had
profound impact, and what she writes has that profound impact.
And there's very few people who have one liners like
Gloria does, and you know, is infinitely quotable. But I
think that the most important example that Gloria has given
across generations is just her example of how she lives
(29:59):
her lives. I mean, living independently, you know, as a
single woman, making her own income, getting up, you know,
even when it was terrifying, and speaking in public, and
you know, it was more what she was doing that
I think is and in her generation that was bolder
and braver because it was less popular of a choice
(30:21):
and therefore less accessible of a choice, and a lot
of women who thought, oh if only I could do that.
And I think, you know, my generation, younger generations definitely
have more examples of how that is possible. But it's
still a threatening choice to make, the unconventional choice, and
it also is still a financial reality that not many
women can afford to live in. I mean, most women
(30:44):
I know who have some level of financial success, married
it or inherited it. So there's still few examples of
women being able to live truly independent life. So I
think it's just that example that is one that resonates
across generations.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
As you're saying that, I'm thinking about the more people
would do it if they understood the real life rewards.
Maybe we should write about it, you know, because people
stop you in the street, you know, and say thank
you for this or that.
Speaker 8 (31:15):
I mean, it's a simplification to say this, but I
think Gloria made being different okay, And I think that
a lot of other people either we're yeah and the
only other person and you're gonna laugh when.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
I give us.
Speaker 8 (31:29):
Example that I've seen that has a similar kind of
on the street reaction in the airport reaction is the
skateboarder Tony Hawk, And it's because because skateboarding was this
weird thing that loser kids did, and he made it like, no,
you can do it, and you can make a career
out of it, you can be successful at it, you
can make you can have fun while you're doing it.
(31:50):
And I think that that is you know, not you
know it is the it's doing it and doing it
graciously and gracefully too. That is, I think.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
That I've never compared myself to the skateboard I know,
I'm so impressed.
Speaker 8 (32:07):
I think he would also compare himself to you, So
that's a good I.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Think it also means too that not only did you
make it okay, but you also made it cool, like
to be yourself and to be independent and to be
like so then it really became this path and it
became a cool thing, and so therefore even more acceptable.
Speaker 8 (32:28):
It is funny how people still use these shoulds to
like define their lives. I mean, I'm not legally married,
but I have like the most heteronormative life and I
even have like a station wagon and a dog.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
So but the.
Speaker 8 (32:42):
Friends who and just other people in the world who
were the most threatened by it were people who wanted
to make different choices but didn't feel invited to or
that they could. And there's this I get this sense
of like, oh, I would have done that too, but
my parents wouldn't have allowed it, or and I think
that again, like Gloria didn't you know, yes, she's radical
in the sense of she's going to the root on
(33:03):
these issues, but you just did it without apologizing for
what you were doing. And I think that that is
people still want like permission to do something that's outside
of the box. And if only I could, And I think,
you know Gloria's examples, well I did you know? She
would never say that, but I think that it is.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
You know, you have also been the source of attacks.
It hasn't been easy. We get to sit here and
praise you now, you.
Speaker 10 (33:28):
Know, which is great, I have to say, but you
know there, you know, when you look at the vitriol
that's come your way, you know, how did that you
and how did you overcome that?
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Well, when you say that to me, I imagine because
when Dorothy Pittman Hughes or Flow Kennedy or you know,
when we were speaking together, which actually we started out
partly because I was afraid to speak by myself, also
because I didn't want the women's movement to be presented
(34:00):
by one white woman. You know that at least we
could have a little diversity. So some hostile guy in
the audience would get up, and you know when Dorothy
or Flow Kennedy we were speaking together and say are
you lesbians? And Flow would always say, are you my alternative,
(34:21):
and it was.
Speaker 8 (34:25):
Gluri would also respond with fact and Flow would say,
if you have a truck on your leg, it doesn't
matter how much the truck weighs. Get the truck off
my leg. Glour would always try to arm with stormline statistics.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I mean I did it out of both fear and friendship,
you know, because I was afraid to do by myself
and we were friends. But it taught me a lesson
about how important it is to do things together. That
illustrates whatever it is you're trying to say.
Speaker 8 (34:55):
But I will say that you know, another lesson that
you have taught is you know you know some you know,
your enemies also say a lot about you. And there's
a lot of out there that I want as my
enemy because I don't want to be on their side,
to be on their side.
Speaker 6 (35:09):
Can you say that again?
Speaker 1 (35:10):
That was brilliant The enemies.
Speaker 8 (35:13):
You want them as enemies because you don't want them
to be on your side. And I think that the
heart and this is I can speak personally about this.
I think the harder criticism is when it comes from
people that are around you. And and you know, criticism
is one thing, but the hatred or the hatred is
maybe too extreme for a word. The undermining or the jealousy,
(35:34):
and I'm sure you and I'm sure you experience this.
I'm sure you're I'm sure your parents experience this. But
the hardest thing for me to watch is when supposed
allies of Glorias will kind of try to subtly undermine
her or be mean to her, and you know and
quite frankly jealous of you know, maybe that she can
withstand certain things that other people can and that's so
(35:56):
I think the vitriol that comes maybe that's too extreme
for But I would say the more latent, like passive
aggressiveness that comes from the people that are supposed to
be your friends and your allies is kind of the hardest.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
How do you deal with it?
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Well? Fortunately I have Amy. Yeah, No, I mean you
friends are chosen family, right, and you always need this circle,
but sometimes you need it more than before. You know,
(36:31):
when you're really feeling unjustly accused or wounded or ridiculed
or whatever it is. So you need to be willing
to ask for help or ask for comfort or say, okay,
am I fucking up? Here? Is that the problem? If so?
(36:53):
Tell me, you know you need that.
Speaker 8 (36:55):
One of the punishments of being a recognizable person, and
I'm sure you've experienced this in your own lives, is
that people stop telling you the truth. You know, either
because they're they're in a position to try to protect you,
or because you think that you're above it, so they're like,
I'm not gonna I mean, I'll never forget being at
a table with the famous person. They had food in
their teeth and nobody was telling them, and I was like,
(37:17):
excuse me, you have food, you have spinach in your teeth,
and you know, just subtle things like that. And I
do think that that honesty and being able to say, Gloria,
you shouldn't have said that, or you know, you know,
is something that you really need when you are in
a higher profile position.
Speaker 7 (37:33):
Lauria, what have you learned from Amy about how the
next generation leads differently and what gives you hope watching them?
Speaker 1 (37:43):
We just did a speaking thing together, sort of. I mean,
Amy was asking me questions and and and we work
together a lot, but I don't always get to see
her in public, and I thought to myself, this woman
is brilliant. Think you right. Hopefully we're able to continue
(38:05):
to appreciate each other in different ways and also constructively
criticized to help us become better. Not be afraid to
do that, and that is like the very best part
of a family. We do it with our children, I think,
even though I don't, but we sometimes forget to do
(38:27):
it with our friends.
Speaker 11 (38:29):
We're so inspired being in your home, I just can't
have to ask you a very personal question. Behind the
kings is a beautiful photo for those who are not
able to watch and see of an elephant being very
close to maybe a young monk or a young person
who's reading. I see elephants here, I see beautiful door
from India. I see elephants of course too, are left.
What do you love most about elephants?
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Elephants are my totem. You know, they're huge, they're gentle,
they don't hurt anything, they don't kill anything. They eat
the bark off trees. They're matrilineal, very kind of ideal
people lovely.
Speaker 8 (39:03):
Someone just reshared this photo yesterday for Gloria's eightieth birthday.
Group people had gone to Botswana, and some of those people,
including Gloria and another friend, had been to the same
location maybe eight years before, and the oldest in the group.
Kathy came right up to Gloria and this other woman
and took the trunk and wrapped around the two of them.
(39:25):
Someone just reshared the photo yesterday, but it is you know,
they don't forget.
Speaker 5 (39:29):
Well, it's been such a privilege to watch this friendship
and a privilege to be able to sit in your home.
I just want to say that alone is a pinch
myself moments and listening to the two.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Of you have talking circles here all the time.
Speaker 8 (39:44):
It's not that unique.
Speaker 5 (39:47):
But in this conversation, in this podcast, in this broadcast,
we get a chance to sit with icons when you
pause and look in your life, just to reflect the
gratitude as we come to a close, your life has
taught and shown through action. Change is hard. Change happens
across decades, It happens across generations. It happens in homes
(40:08):
and kitchens and frontlines and pickets and workplaces and magazines
and printing, and it happens across multiple aspects. You remind
us that the need to constantly choose hope, to constantly
bring friendship and laughter and joy into conversations, and to
continuously not be defined by others' expectations. And it's been
(40:32):
such a privilege to be a witness to your friendship. Obviously,
to live in a world that you helped shape. The
world owes your debtic gratitude, and we all owe you
a debt of gratitude for joining us on my Legacy
and sharing your legacy with us. Thank you both today.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Thank you for joining us. If you enjoy today's conversation, subscribe, share,
and follow us on at my Legacy movement on social
media and YouTube. New episodes drop every Tuesday, with bonus
content every Thursday. At its core, this podcast honors doctor
King's vision of the beloved community and the power of connection.
(41:12):
A Legacy Plus Studio production distributed by iHeartMedia creator and
executive producer Suzanne Hayward co executive producer Lisa Lyle. Listen
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Craig Kielburger
Marc Kielburger
Martin Luther King III
Arndrea Waters King
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