April 22, 2025 • 50 mins
Jemele Hill is one of the most fearless voices in media – an award-winning journalist, podcast host, and unapologetic truth-teller. But in this unforgettable episode of the My Legacy podcast, she opens up about the moments that shaped her long before the headlines.
Joining co-hosts Martin Luther King III, Arndrea Waters King, Marc Kielburger, and Craig Kielburger, Jemele opens up about growing up with instability caused by her mother’s addiction, the early mentors who believed in her, and the defining choice to never apologize for telling the truth, even when it meant risking it all.
Alongside her husband, Ian Wallace, Jemele also reflects on how trust and love gave her space to be vulnerable for the first time.
Unforgettable lessons include:
- How to speak up when you’re the only one in the room
- Why vulnerability is a strength – not a weakness
- The dating green flag no one talks about: curiosity without an agenda
- How to support someone through public storms
- And why your past doesn’t define you — it prepares you
If you’ve ever felt the pressure to carry it all, this conversation will remind you that real power starts with giving yourself permission to let go.
Creator and Executive Producer: Suzanne Hayward
Co-Executive Producer: Lisa Lisle
Editor Sujit Agrawal
Post-production producer Tina Pittaway
A/V by A. Britton Dream Production Co.
Produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and Executive Producer Gabrielle Collins.
Like our podcast? Visit http://youtube.com/@mylegacymovement to see full episodes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
One of the things you said in the past, Jamel,
is that Ian has allowed you to take your cape.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Off because strength and black women have become synonymous. And
that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be
a crippling thing in the sense that we assume that
we always have to wear this cape, and that if
we're not always the model of strength, then we're somehow
being imperfect. We also don't want to fall into the
(00:30):
trap of always thinking that we have to be somebody
else's savior, because sometimes the person that needs the most
saving is us. And what I loved about our relationship
is like, my husband's a great communicator, and even though
I might be in media, while I can certainly communicate,
I think it's always been difficult for me to communicate vulnerability,
(00:52):
for me to be comfortable in that soft place. But
when you have trust in your partner, it's easy to
be vulnerable. And so because I have such trust in him,
it's easy for me to do that.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
That was Jamel Hill, courageous journalist and unapologetic truth teller,
describing her relationship with her husband Ian Wallace, and the
freedom she's found in finally laying down the weight of
always having to be the strong one. I'm Andrea Waters
King and this is My Legacy hosted by me, my
husband Martin Luther King, IID and our good friends Mark.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Kilberger and Craig Kilberger.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Today, Jamel and her husband take us deep into the
kind of love that heals, the strength it takes to
rewrite your story, and the wisdom that only comes after
the storm. This conversation is filled with truth, insight, and
takeaways that just might shift how you show up in
your own life. And don't worry, We've also got Jamel's
(01:52):
top dating dues and don'ts for women and for men,
and the sports argument that this couple will never ever resolve.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Let's dive in.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Welcome to My Legacy. For our new listeners and viewers,
this isn't your typical solo celebrity interview. This is the
show where remarkable people pull back the curtain and bring
along the one person who has seen it all, the highs,
the lows, the heartbreaks, the one who knows the full,
unfiltered story. And today we're joined by someone who has
(02:24):
never backed down from saying what needed to be said.
Jamel Hill is a trailblazing, award winning sports journalist podcast hosts,
author and unapologetic truth teller. Whether she's calling a game
or calling out injustice, her take is always sharp, fearless,
and fiercely her own. Jamel, would you mind introducing us
(02:46):
to your best, your favorite, your plus one who you
brought here today?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Well, thank you number one for that incredible intro. And
the person that I brought with me today is somebody
who and helped my mother. Won't take this personally, but
probably knows me better than anybody, but who knows me
the best, and who has seen me through so many
ups and downs and also understands my vulnerabilities, which is
(03:13):
very important to me because those are the things I
have the most trouble.
Speaker 5 (03:16):
Showcasing and highlighting.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
My support system, my rock, someone who I think has
the highest integrity of probably any person that I know.
So I brought with me my wonderful, beloved, sexy, handsome husband,
Ian Wallace.
Speaker 6 (03:36):
That for intro.
Speaker 7 (03:37):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
By the time you did both of those, By the
time you, I mean she introduced Ian and introduced her,
I feel like saying amen.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
All around.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
All our listeners are now putting down the podcast and
putting on the video version.
Speaker 6 (03:51):
They're like, what does he look like?
Speaker 8 (03:54):
You know, we all love love stories and we all
want to hear if redtail Jimille, can you tell us
how you all story began the two of you.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, I'm sure you asked this question enough to know
that when you're speaking with a couple, both people have
different versions of how this actually happened.
Speaker 7 (04:16):
The truth, I actually tell the truth.
Speaker 5 (04:18):
Yes, yes, it's true.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
And somehow it feels like when men tell their side
of the story. It's also grossly embellished on a lot
of accounts.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
So this was twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I was still at ESPN and I had a daily
sports discussion show called Numbers Never Lie. And I came
back to Michigan State where I went to school. My
husband also went to Michigan State as well, but we
went at different times.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
They asked me to be the homecoming.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Ambassador, if you will, like, so I had to go
back be in the parade, you know, do all all
those that kind of homecoming stuff.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
And so I went back there.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
The show came there as well, just as a as
a support thing, and so you know, I was on
campus for the weekend and going around to different tailgates.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
This is game day, went to a tailgate.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It was the Black Alumni tailgate, one of my favorite
tailgates to go to when I go to a Michigan
State football game. And I was there talking to someone.
It was actually and it turned out to be a
friend of my husband's and I didn't even know him then,
and I was talking to him when my husband came up.
And as soon as he came up and started talking
to his friend, I immediately noticed, he's fine.
Speaker 5 (05:38):
So like, I'm not gonna lie like it was officially I.
Speaker 6 (05:40):
Loved you and smile. He's not saying anything. He's just
sitting there smiling.
Speaker 7 (05:44):
So far, so far?
Speaker 5 (05:46):
Okay, do I have this correct? All right? So I
was like, he's fine, Where did he come from? I'm
gonna continue this conversation.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So the three of us started to talk and there
was definitely some flirty eye energy.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Between me and my husband.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I just sort of left things there because I had
other homecoming duties that I had to do and I
did not expect to see him again. Well, fast forward
to a few hours later. They have a big party
the Black Michigan say Black Alumni. They host a big
party for homecoming weekend. I went to the party, and
sure enough I'm at the party. I look across the
dance floor and my husband is standing right there, and
(06:22):
I was like, oh, the fine guy from the tailgate.
You know, so I energy this is This is just
a little aside, a pro tip for ladies out there.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
I energy works.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
You send the right eye energy, the right body language.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
You can just bring them on to you. Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So I looked at him and I gave him that
I energy like, I need you to come over here.
Speaker 5 (06:44):
And he came over.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
He got my number, and the rest, as they say,
is history. More importantly too, pro tip for men who
are listening. He called me the next day. It wasn't
like he waited. He didn't, you know, hold it out
for a week to try to see you know, you know, yeah, cool,
he didn't.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
He called me the next day. Eye energy, yep ie energy.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
And when you see something, say something right. So, in
other words, call the next day. Don't don't play your
follow up. Don't play let her forget you follow up.
There's no need to play games with the grown woman.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
No, And so, babe, did I get that right?
Speaker 7 (07:20):
Mostly true?
Speaker 9 (07:21):
You forgot to mention love at first sight, not for me.
Speaker 7 (07:25):
For her.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
Saying, it's always always got to put a little extra
on it.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Well, okay, we got to hear your side of the story.
Love at first sight. What did you first see when
you saw her with and most importantly, when did.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
You fall hard?
Speaker 9 (07:41):
What was an instant connection when we first seen each other.
So it was crazy that we didn't exchange numbers and
we left it to fate.
Speaker 7 (07:49):
So we seen each other that.
Speaker 9 (07:50):
That same night, and she was just shining on the
dance floor. It was almost like a spotlight was on her,
and I think Keisha Cole sent from Heaven was playing
as I walked over.
Speaker 6 (08:03):
And if it wasn't, that's how it's always gonna be remembered.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
Yes, yes, yeah, it sounds good.
Speaker 6 (08:07):
Sounds good.
Speaker 9 (08:09):
But you know, as we got to know each other
and we talk more and more, it was it was
just different. You know, she was truly a unicorn. You know,
she was different from a lot of females that I
had been with in the past, and she was just
a breath of fresh air. So I struggled earlier. I
(08:29):
didn't want to fall in love. I was trying not to.
Speaker 7 (08:31):
I was like, no, it's too soon.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
One of the things you said in the past, Jamil
is that Ian has allowed you to take your cape off.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
And I love that.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I think there's so many women in general, and Black
women in particular, that feel as if we have to
be so strong for everyone and everything and to have
a soft space. And it also ties into when you
introduced him, you use the word vulnerable, that he allows
you to be vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Can you just talk a little bit and share.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
With our listeners and unfold what that means to you.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I mean, I think you're exactly right that you know
because strength and black women have become synonymous, and that's
not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a
crippling thing in the sense that we assume that we
always have to wear this cape, and that if we're
not always the model of strength, then we're somehow being imperfect.
(09:25):
And while it's true that we certainly have to have
our armor on, we certainly have to be ready for
all the things that are coming at us. We also
don't want to fall into the trap of always thinking
that we have to be somebody else's savior, because sometimes
the person that needs the most saving is us, and
probably the best thing that we can do for ourselves
(09:47):
is find people, a community, places where we don't always
have to be the one that comes up with the solution,
always have to be the one who sacrifices always, you know,
we don't have to constantly put ourselves in that mode.
I mean, listen, we say what kind of we save
the democracy? Is like at some point, like we have
to really save ourselves. And what I loved about our
(10:11):
relationship is like my husband's a great communicator, and even
though I might be in media, while I can certainly communicate,
I think it has always been difficult for me to
communicate vulnerability, for me to be comfortable in that soft
place and just organically and naturally. It was never a
conversation that we had, but it was through action and
(10:34):
through communication that it was really easy for me to
see that this was some place that I didn't have
to always feel like I had to be the strong one.
But when you have trust in your partner, it's easy
to be vulnerable. And so because I have such trust
in him, it's easy for me to do that.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So was it hard then for you to find that place?
Because I think for so many women and we love
being strong, it really is who we are. But to
have that dance of also being vulnerable, you know again,
like you know, we're out in the world, always say that,
you know, we've shown up for this country, and now
it's also time for the country to show up for us.
(11:14):
And so for you to find that space also of
being vulnerable, to have a place to fall into.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Was that scary for you at first?
Speaker 5 (11:24):
Oh, it's terrifying. You know.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Nobody goes willingly, you know, I don't want to make
it seem like, you know, vulnerability knocked on the door
and I was like, hi, I'm ready.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
Like no, it was.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
It was a process, as it is for a lot
of women, especially if you you know, independent, been used
to doing everything on your own and used to being
your own savior, like it's hard to sometimes relinquish some
of that. So then to me, the responsibility was on
me to start to open up and to share that
(11:57):
and to be more vulnerable with him, because he had
shown me that he was more than capable of being
the soft place, the landing, the place where I would
feel that sense of comfort and peace. It was then
on me to take my armor off, to take off,
you know, my battle gear, and be that person with him.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Well, Jamel, I love how you described the impact the
relationship has on you, and if I could shift it
back to you again, you know, if I could ask,
what have you experienced being in that relationship with Jamel
and how has it changed how you show up in a.
Speaker 9 (12:32):
Relationship well being with the woman who's strongest Jamail. I
was never intimidated by it. It was actually something that
I cherish, you know, just having a strong woman and
being there for And there was a wall that was up,
you know, initially when we met, but by trade, I'm
(12:53):
a salesperson, so I asked a lot of questions and
the questions were genuine.
Speaker 7 (12:58):
It was organic, you know.
Speaker 9 (13:00):
I wanted to know about her and you know, the
different experiences that she had in her life and.
Speaker 7 (13:06):
Learning from her.
Speaker 9 (13:08):
And it was funny because I remember asking questions to
her mom and she's like, why are you asking so
many questions, and it's like, I just want to know.
I'm just curious, you know, I want to know Jamel.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And by the way, I think that's an underrated ability
because I think a lot of women have experienced having
interactions with men, especially if there's like some level of
romantic interest where the men tend to talk more about
themselves and it's okay to talk about yourself because I
wanted to learn about you too.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
It is something that I always.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Keep in the back of my mind that if i'm
you know, if I'm on a date with a guy
and he doesn't ask me a single question, I think that's.
Speaker 5 (13:45):
A bit of a pink flag.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I'm like, he didn't ask me anything about myself, and
he was so different because he asked me a lot
of questions. And more importantly, I should say this because
I've told this story before and I feel like now
I have a chance to like fully clarify it is that,
you know, one of the things I loved about him
is that he never asked me about work. All of
the questions were about, you know, who I was, maybe
(14:10):
how I grew up. You know, we have a lot
of things in common. We're both from Detroit, so that
was like a natural connection between us. We both went
to Michigan State, another natural, you know, kind of connection.
And so just getting the look to know the totality
of who I am, because you know, when I was
at ESPN and you're in such a high visible position,
(14:31):
naturally a lot of men watch ESPN and they're very
familiar with the personalities on ESPN, and it was always
kind of irritating to me that if I was talking
to a guy and he's asking me forty five questions
about ESPN, like I, do you want to be on
a date with ESPN?
Speaker 5 (14:46):
Or do you want to be on a date with me?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Like, don't stop asking me about what Steven A. Smith
is like, what Skip Baylor's is like, wasn't like to
be on around the horn like I don't I don't
you know? To me, that's not really getting to know me.
That's getting to know my job.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Pro tip number four.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Now, we're gonna have like a after this, it'll be
a one two three to now.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Pro Tip number four to ask questions.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yes, man, ask questions, and don't you know, ask questions
that lead you to understand who this person is. You know,
asking how they grew up or you know how you
know what we're what were your parents right like? And
you know, asking about school and you know, and just
generally getting some texture about what made them into the
(15:32):
person that they are.
Speaker 10 (15:33):
In your earlier years as you were matriculating through your
early years of the career, and particularly as as a
black woman who were your mentors. Who were some of
your mentors or war their mentors.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
I had a lot, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Of course, everybody you know is fortunate enough to have
the people in their family be your earliest mentors. So
I had my mother who certainly always stressing of education, who.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
Whether I liked it or not, she was always on
me in terms of discipline.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
My grandmother, she also was a strong influence in my life.
She originally from the South, from Kentucky, migrated to Detroit,
you know, right before she started high school, and she
went back and got her bachelor's degree. She already had
three kids, and she was in her i think her
(16:29):
mid thirties when she went and got her bachelor's degree
from Wayne State University in Detroit. Spent her professional life
working as a social worker for the state of Michigan.
And so those were, you know, two strong women in
my life who always stressed the importance of education, of
building a life for myself, of upward mobility, and Detroit
(16:50):
as a city, because percentage wise, is the black of
city in America right now, and certainly because that's always
been such a strong part of the identity of Detroit.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Coming up through public schools in Detroit.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
The sense of identity that I had by the time
I went to college was very strong. I was blessed
and fortunate enough to have a lot of black teachers
who poured into me, and certainly early on as I
began showing an interest in writing, like I started my
journalism path in high school. You know, I was very
lucky to have started so early, and so my journalism teachers.
(17:23):
In my memoir, it was a reason why I made
sure that I acknowledged my teachers in the acknowledgment section,
because teachers don't get enough credit number one, and a
lot of times they don't know how sometimes their students
turn out. And I think it's affirming for them to
know that as much resistance as kids as we may
(17:44):
give you that seeds are still being planted even as
we're resisting. And you know, I think about my creative
writing teacher I went to Mufford High School in Detroit, MS. Blackhawk,
who I still email occasionally to this day. My journalism teacher,
Miss Sebrim, other journalism teacher, missus Platt. I still know
them because I remember the lessons that they taught me.
Speaker 5 (18:05):
So those were early mentors I love.
Speaker 6 (18:10):
That was so awesome to hear that.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
You gotta do it by name.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
And even now that I know them as adults, I
cannot call them by their first name.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
It's like impossible for me to do this. You know,
my middle school teacher, missus Johnson, and.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
You know my counselor, Miss Todd, Like I remember all
of the people who were giving me that encouraged me
planning those seeds. And when I first started working for
the Detroit Free Press, the professional paper in Detroit and
high school answering phones in the sports.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
Department, it was uh.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
They were one of the sports departments that actually had
women who were reporters. And they took me on the
sports staff, that is, and they took me under their wing.
I mean, the first time I attended professional practice, my
mentor John ed Howard, she took me. She was doing
a big story on the Detroit Lions, on their former
head coach Wayne Fonce, And that was the first time
I got to see and fell practice and seeing her
(19:02):
report and seeing her talk to different players. You know,
sometimes it may sound strange, but sometimes ignorance is bliss,
just in the sense of I was too ignorant to
know that sports journalism was something women weren't supposed to do.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Because so many people had given me the confidence that
this was where I belonged. So by the time I
started really making my way in the industry, and I
looked around the room, and in most spaces, I was
either the only black person, the only woman, and certainly
the only black woman. I had enough confidence to know
that even though this room looks like this, I belong
(19:40):
here and.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
I have just as much of a right to be
here as anybody else. So it was too late.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
They couldn't ruin my confidence by the end, right, So
I was really fortunate that I had a long list
of people who poured into me and who constantly affirmed that, hey,
you're in the right place, You're doing the right thing,
and you just have to simply keep going.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Like follow and subscribe to my Legacy podcast, and most importantly,
share this with someone who needs a reminder of their
own strength today back in a moment, now back to
my Legacy.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
You talk about courage, and I want to reflect on
what that courage has meant, because you know, very famously
in twenty eighteen, you called out President Trump's racism. You
called out Jerry Jones his stance on players taking a knee,
and that ultimately costs you your job. You know that
that's courage. And so when you talk about courage, when
(20:44):
you reflect back on that time, what did that teach
you about your voice? What does that teach you about
your values? And frankly, what did it teach you about
your willingness to risk it all for what you believe in?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Oh, I'm sure a lot of people who have been
in far more dangerous positions than that one, especially as
you know, with you all being so intimately acquainted with
the civil rights movement, is that you don't know if
you're going to.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
Meet the moment until the moment find you. You have
no idea.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So if you would have asked me before that actually happened, Hey,
if this was the scenario, what would you do? You
think you know what you would do, You think you
know how you might respond, but you don't really actually
know until you're right there in the fire. And so
all of the decisions that I made as the you know,
White House called for me to be fired, as you know,
(21:31):
Donald Trump singled me out on social media as that
was happening. I mean, I'm making mental decisions in real time,
and I had to sort of have a few moments
with myself and saying like, Okay, if this results in
you being fired, like right in this moment, what are
you gonna do?
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Or if they put it on.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
The table, hey, either apologize to the president or you're
gonna have to leave here.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
What are you gonna do?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And I every think and every cell in my body
was like, if they asked me to apologize to the president,
I'm not gonna do it. And I made that clear
very early. I'm never apologizing to him. I said what
I said, and we just got to live with that.
The other part of it, too, is like knowing that, hey,
if this is the end of the road right here.
You know, I didn't leave ESPN until a year later,
(22:20):
and I'd left on my own terms, and if at
the moment they had to make a business decision, I
just I would have.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Lived with it.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I mean, it wouldn't feel good, especially given all the
work that I put in to get to that point.
And there's not many people who get the opportunity to
anchor the six o'clock Sports Center, one of the sort
of treasured time slots at ESPN, But if that was
the result, that was the result. And at you know,
when stuff like this happens, where your integrity and your
(22:50):
character is questioned, you have to be able to live
with yourself. And I would not have been able to
live with myself had I capitulated in a way that
I think would not have spoke to who authentically I am.
So it was a lot of lessons that I've found
out in real time and just because the situation was there,
(23:14):
And I'm thankful for that, because when similar situations, maybe
not always involving the President of the United States, but
when other tests of your character, your integrity, when those
things happen, it's muscle memory. Now you're confident because you've
already done it. And I've done it at a level
(23:34):
that most people don't get to do it at. And
so when I'm in meetings or in determining business relationships
and things pop up where you have to stand on something,
I'm so much more comfortable doing that because I've already
done it before. It's very similar to an athlete. I mean,
I'm sure Michael Jordan missed a lot of game winning
(23:56):
shots before he actually made them, and when he finally
made one, it became muscle memory, and then after that
that dude was never losing. So I sort of approach
it with the mentality that an athlete might.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
So even before that happened.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Let's also go back to your beginning days of ESPN, because,
as you mentioned earlier, you found yourself in rooms where
you were, you know, most times, one, if not the
only woman, you know, certainly probably probably the only black woman.
So if we're talking about legacy on this show, you know,
(24:30):
and you at ESPN early two thousands, you know that
legacy is there. But you said about that time that
it is both isolating and yet motivating. Can you share
with our listeners a little bit by what you mean
by that?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
So the isolating part is when I was a sports
columnist at the Orlando Sentinel. This would have been in
two thousand and five and most of two thousand and six,
I was the only black female sports columnist at a
daily newspaper in North America. And notice I didn't just
say America, right, So that's one out of four hundred
(25:06):
and five newspapers, And that is an embarrassing statistic for
the profession of journalism, and a lot of people might
have thought that that would have given me some sense
of accomplishment.
Speaker 5 (25:19):
It did not.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
What it was communicating to me, and even worse, communicating
to other women who might want to get in the business,
is that your voices aren't necessary nor are they valued.
And so that's the isolating part, and you know it
also comes with a lot of scrutiny because you're the
only one and a lot of black people have been
in this situation in all industries. Is that when you're
(25:44):
the only one, you then become the test case, right,
So you have to carry yourself a certain way because
you are living with the burden of if I mess up,
no one else is coming after me.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
Black people aren't perfect, right.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
So it's like, if I make some junior mistakes or whatever,
if that's the reason why you won't see value in
black women having voices in the sports space, then that,
to me reflects more on you than it does on me.
So you're carrying all of this, but at the same time,
you know, getting to ESPN, a place that is considered
(26:20):
to be for our profession at the very top, if
you're in sports media, being the most powerful sports media
company in America, then you know there's something to be
celebrated by being able to advance and take that step
and realize that all the hard work has brought you
to this place and brought you to this sense of elevation.
(26:41):
But it's always to me about who is able to
come behind you. As a result, now, UESPN is in
a very different position because they can hire whoever they want,
and you look at their team picture and it's very
diverse because they have a lot of women. And even
before I got there, Robin Roberts was the one who
set the table, you know, and so they've always had
(27:05):
a steady pipeline of women of color and putting them
in certain positions. Where I was a little bit different
is that they were traditional anchors, and I was one
of the few that were able to develop a foot
hole and an imprint at ESPN by giving my opinion,
by creating conversation based off my perspective and my experience
(27:30):
that I had as a sports journalist over the course
of many years. So I was very thrilled to be there,
but I also was fully aware that if I walk
into one more room and I'm the only one in there,
that's not a good room. It's like I've never been
one of those people. And there, unfortunately, are some people
(27:51):
of color who are like this that they do.
Speaker 5 (27:52):
Want to be the only one in the room.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
I don't want to be the only one in the
room because I don't know everything. I don't represent the
entire totality of women of black women.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
I do not do that.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
And so it's important that we all you know, when
we go in these rooms, that is not just about
getting in the room. It's about getting in the room
and kind of breaking it up and opening the door even.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Wider so that more of us. So it's a you know,
a flood of us coming in.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
I loved when Kamala Harris said upon accepting the vice presidency,
I might be the first, but I won't be the last.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I love that sentiment.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
And so here you are at you know, ESPN, you know,
seemingly from the outside, you know, riding on top of
the world. Then you had this unfair attack and this
fall from where you had worked so hard to be.
But throughout all of that Ian was there, and he,
(28:49):
you know, walked with you through that storm and was
always at your side. So my question is for you, Ian,
and particularly for couples that are listening right now, and
if they're going through the storm, they're watching someone that
they love go through the storm. What advice would you
have for couples walking that path.
Speaker 9 (29:10):
I believe communication is the key, you know, constant communication.
When Jamel had when she was going through her storm,
really first and foremost, I wanted to make sure that
I was there and she felt my presence and she
knew that she wasn't alone. We had a lot of
good times and that was probably the most challenging part
(29:31):
of our relationship up up to that point. So my
biggest thing was making sure that she didn't feel alone,
making sure that she felt my presence and we were
going to get through this together. And naturally, I'm a fixer,
so sometimes I have to dial that back because sometimes
she may just want to vent and she just needs
a listening ear versus you know, solution after solution. But
(29:55):
my goal was to remain positive throughout the entire situation
because I knew something good would come from it, and
a lot of things came from it that were.
Speaker 7 (30:04):
Good on a positive note.
Speaker 9 (30:06):
So just positivity and communication would be my advice to
any couples going through any type of turmoil.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah, and I remember when I got suspended, So I
had a two week suspension. I think I spent the
first week with you, right, So I and you know
that to me said a lot about our relationship. Is
that My immediate instinct after I got suspended was I
need to hop on the plane and I need to
be with him, right because I knew that the comfort
(30:35):
I was looking for, I knew the solace I was
looking for. I knew all of that could be found
in him. And you know that spoke volumes about our
you know, relationship, and I know it probably wasn't the
easiest from you in the sense of that. You know,
here you have me being discussed on all these news channels,
and you know he's also in the corporate world, so
(30:58):
you have colleagues that are watching.
Speaker 9 (31:00):
Well. The challenge for me was, you know, under normal circumstances,
if I was dating a regular woman, if she got
into an issue with someone at work, I would just
go up there and have a.
Speaker 7 (31:09):
Conversation with that.
Speaker 9 (31:10):
With it being the president of the United States, so
it was a little handcom So it was a little
challenging for me.
Speaker 7 (31:17):
So, and that's another thing.
Speaker 9 (31:18):
You know, we have fun, so making her laugh and
just making her feel comfortable.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
I think what are for our viewers and listeners who
might not know you as well.
Speaker 7 (31:26):
I don't think they would.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Fully understand that your story is one of incredible courage,
Like people would, I think, be surprised that you would
take on the President of the United States until they
actually understand more about your origin. You know, you wrote
about your mom, you wrote about you know, families battling
with addiction, you wrote about you know, the challenges that
you overcame in your life and your origin story. Can
(31:50):
you bring some of our our listeners more deeply into
those moments that shaped who you were on just a
very fundamental level and and what actually was I'm curious
to aspast what was the hardest part to reveal that,
to share that with people?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Well, I wanted, you know, I wanted to be as
transparent with the people reading as I when I sit
across and interview people, as I want them to be
with me. And I wanted to kind of leave it
all out there because a lot of times, especially if
people view you as being successful, they see the picture
(32:26):
before them now, they don't see what it took to
get to that, right, And so I think it's important
to share that so that people understand that, listen, we're
all going to face challenges, we all have some kind
of trauma we're dealing with, but those are things that
do not have to define your journey. And it was
especially important for me to share the fact that, you know,
(32:47):
I grew up in Detroit, growing up there, you know,
I'm a med seventies baby, So by the time I
was coming of age, it's like, you know, that's when
a lot of crime, a.
Speaker 5 (32:56):
Lot of drugs have really sieged on.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
And unfortunately, you know, my father and also my mother,
they battled through a drug addiction during a time where
a lot of people in Detroit were battling with those
same things. And you know, not just sort of the
drug addiction having a particular legacy in my family, but
also sexual trauma and sexual abuse as well, and so
(33:24):
dealing with those issues early on in life were as
debilitating as they could be at times for my mother
in particular, they also were preparing me for a journey
that I didn't even realize that I was going to
be on. And so later on, you know, you fast
forward to when I get into it with the President,
(33:46):
and a lot of people were you know naturally asking
me like are you okay, and you know, how are
you making it through? It was like, if you knew
what I made through before I even got to this point,
you would see why I laugh at that question. It's
like it wouldn't even rank in the top twenty of
worse things that I've been through. I mean, yes, it
played out very publicly, and you know, there were some
(34:07):
professional challenges I've had to overcome as a result, and
to be frank still over having to overcome.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
Because he's back in office.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
So yeah, while having to deal with that, it did
not compare to having to up close witness my mother
battle a drug addiction, and so I wanted to make
sure that I wrote very honestly about those moments because
there are a lot of people who deal with addiction
in their family, and I wanted to hopefully for people
(34:39):
remove the layer of shame, because there's nothing that you
should feel ashamed of if you come from a background
that is similar to the one that I came from.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
And because I do have that.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Upbringing of being, you know, the child of addicts and
seeing some of the things that I've seen, it gives
me actually incredible perspective as a person and as a
journalist as well, because I think as a journalist you're
not very.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
Good if you can't write with empathy.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
And I think, as I've reported on a number of
different stories, some in sports from outside of sports, I'm
able to take that empathy into these different situations, and
I think people give people who are reading or watching
an honest reflection about the complications of life. So it's
(35:32):
funny because when my mother and I did Red Table Talk,
we kind of had this kind of back and forth
about that because when I told her that the things
she had gone through, you know, really I wouldn't be
where I am if she hadn't gone through those But
she sees it another way that is more of an
indication of her failure.
Speaker 5 (35:50):
It's like you.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Should not have had to have seen that to learn
those lessons. You know, mothers obviously they always want to
protect you, and I do understand why she would say that,
but I don't know that if I would have Strange
as it may sound, because all the things I went
through are things statistically you're not supposed to make it
to where I am. But I don't think I would
(36:11):
have made it had I not gone through those things.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
One of the things that I keep thinking as I
listen to your story and the more and more I
get to know you, is that this whole you know,
thinking of my dear, they tried to crush you, but
they didn't know, Darling, that you are a diamond. So
every single piece of pressure and crushing actually was revealing
more and more and more of that brilliance of a diamond.
(36:38):
And for anybody that's going through something tough, for challenging,
if you're there and you're surviving it, you know, just
remember too, that thing that's trying to crush you, they
don't know that you are a diamond. And when I
think of you as a little a little one, I
can't help but wonder Ian, if you could sit with
a younger version of your phenomenal wife, what would you
(37:02):
say to her?
Speaker 7 (37:05):
The future is bright?
Speaker 5 (37:07):
The future the heck of a question.
Speaker 7 (37:10):
That was a great question. It was a great question.
Speaker 9 (37:12):
Yeah, I mean, just I would echo the same things
that Jamel mentioned, just in terms of everything that you're
about to experience is going to prepare you for life.
It's going to prepare you to deal with the different
things that you'll encounter life. And while it may be hard,
the things that you're experiencing, it's going to make you tougher,
(37:34):
and it's going to make you better and better equipped
to deal with your future.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
You know, a lot of times we don't know what
exactly that we are being prepared for. And I think, uh,
you know, knowing the person that you are and just
how you're built and the way that you know you move.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Is the.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I often marvel at our relationship from the standpoint of like,
I think, if you to ask me in my twenties,
you know, what's the.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
Kind of man that you want?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
And to me, this is more a reflection to my
immaturity and who you are is like, I don't think
I would have been able to come up with the
characteristics that you have because I just wasn't thinking on
that level, right, Like, I don't think if you'd ask
me a twenty five like what kind of man do
you want?
Speaker 5 (38:21):
I might have named a job. I might have named
like how somebody look.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
But I wouldn't say, like, you know, what matters to
me is that you know somebody that gives you a
sense of calm and peace, somebody who makes you laugh,
Like I don't know that I would have said that then,
or somebody who carries himself with this level of integrity,
that you know, that you can trust, that you.
Speaker 5 (38:41):
Know has a good heart, that treats people a certain.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Way kindness like I would not have probably named those things,
and you're all of those things.
Speaker 9 (38:49):
Yeah, I definitely would have told young Jamail to stop
wasting a time your career.
Speaker 7 (38:55):
You don't really need to date something.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Something good is around the port and it'll be we
had a Michigan state right.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
Oh, you don't have to wait till you almost forty.
But it's going to.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
Blake, follow and subscribe to my Legacy podcast. Will be
back in a moment. Now back to my Legacy.
Speaker 8 (39:26):
You've said athletes can become the new civil rights voices.
Speaker 10 (39:30):
How do you think sports can become a voice for
social change right now?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Athletes have a lot more power than I think they realize.
I mean, I don't think it's just a plast to them.
I think it applies to.
Speaker 5 (39:39):
Us in general as people.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Because you know, what's the other adage, The greatest way
you can take away somebody's powers to convince them they
don't have any. And there's a lot of us that
have been convinced that we don't have any and so
we sort of sit in this cycle of apathy a
lot of times, you know, allowing things to happen to us,
rather than going back from fighting for what we want.
(40:02):
And athletes sit in a very unique position, especially black athletes,
because if it's one thing we definitely care about in
this country, it's sports, and they are able to one.
Sports is one of the few things that still bring
us together. Like we're a very divided country, politically divided
when it comes to the religion, but yet and still,
(40:23):
if you know, you guys are in Atlanta, if the
Falcons are having a great season, you have a Muslim fan,
you have a Christian fan, black white, you know, queer fan,
different genders, different races, different socioeconomic background, y'all will all
come together and cheer for the Falcons. And so that's
(40:45):
the power that sports still has in our society.
Speaker 5 (40:50):
And because it has that power, athletes have the.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Position to get people to consider things and to look
at things in a different way. It's amazing how people
respond when their favorite athlete speaks to that experience something
they may not be familiar with. I go back to
when Trayvon Martin was murdered, and the first athletes to
(41:14):
take a stand and to bring awareness to that where
the Miami Heat when they had Lebron and d Wade
and they all they just took a picture all of
them wearing hoodies and they I think it was d
Wade who talked about how Trayvon Martin could have been
their son. And that is a message that resonated. And
next thing you know, you saw people of all races
(41:37):
changing their avatars on.
Speaker 5 (41:39):
Social media wearing hoodies.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
And you know, we have examples throughout history of where
when athletes use their politically, when they use their platform
to speak to injustice, to speak to you know, social
justice overall. Just how powerful that can be because people
are much more likely to receive it if it comes
(42:03):
from someone they already admire.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
It's our turn now in the long march toward freedom.
And one of the ways in which you do that
also personally, is through your podcast splot Tics.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Did I say that politics is politics politics in general?
The whole point of the podcast was to connect the
dots between sports and politics. And as much and as
popular as it is for sports fans to say either
I don't want politics and sports or I just want
to escape.
Speaker 5 (42:35):
Politics is all around you in sports, whether you like
it or not.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
One of the biggest stories of the past few weeks
was that the Department of Defense trying to erase Jackie
Robinson's legacy, and that is very much a sports story
as it is a political story because of what Jackie
Robinson stood for, and also an opportunity for people to
understand that his legacy stretches beyond just him in a
(43:00):
lating Major League Baseball in nineteen forty seven, which by
the way, was what some twenty some years before we
got the Civil Rights Act, in the Voting Rights Act.
It was before you know, preceded you know, Brown versus
the Board of Education.
Speaker 5 (43:13):
So it's sports is often in a position to.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Lead YEP in these difficult areas, and so I just
wanted people to remind or to be reminded that that
relationship has been there from the starts. Politics have literally
always been a part of sports.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
We have a project called Realize the Dream, which is
to unite the country through service with one hundred million
hours of service collectively together pledged and committed by my
father in law's one hundredth birthday and twenty twenty nine.
One of the things that we are incredibly honored to
say is that every major sports league has signed up
(43:54):
to join in the Realize the Dream initiative. So we
have the NFL inspired change, we have have Major League Baseball,
and we also have the NBA that are all coming
together with us, joining forces with us to get the
world out and get into communities to do some service together.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Well, let's talk sports.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Let's just two women talking sports. So I have to
ask before we wrap up. We're getting ready to add
into the NBA playoffs, correct, So what do you think
will be the some of the biggest stories from the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Well, unfortunately they won't involve Atlanta, so I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Sorry, I'll tell you that I do believe.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Shay Gilgess Alexander, who plays with Oklahoma City Thunder, I
think he's going to be the MVP.
Speaker 5 (44:43):
He's getting quite a chase from NICOLEA.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Jokisch who plays for Denver, but I think it will
be his and that'll be interesting because I believe that
would make it the fifth straight year that the NBA
MVP has gone to a foreign born player, which is
going to create a lot of interesting conversations around the league.
Speaker 5 (45:02):
I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
I do think this is Oklahoma City's year to make
the NBA finals.
Speaker 5 (45:07):
They're going to get there. They've been the best.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Team all season, and I know that there is a
level of doubt because they're still young, and people kind
of have a hard time wrapping their minds around the fact, like, oh, okay, see,
sure they are. You know, I think they faced a
lot of that last year, but I think after losing
and being a year more experienced, it feels like them.
I think it's gonna be a okay see Boston Celtics final.
(45:37):
And as much as it pains me to say, because
you know, we're from Detroit so we're Pistons fans, I
do think Boston is going to win the title again.
But the good thing we have to look forward to
is our Pistons will be in the playoffs. We have
been irrelevant for too long. We were the worst team
(45:59):
in NBA last year. We I don't know if we
set the record for most losses in a brow. Yeah, yeah,
we set and it was a hell of a turnaround
to go from that to us now being firmly solidly
in the playoffs. Like that, I'm if you ask me
the thing I'm most excited about for the NBA playoffs,
it is seeing the Pistons back in the playoffs.
Speaker 6 (46:22):
Okay, I'm gonna put you in the hot seat thing.
Speaker 7 (46:24):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
So we've had a lot of conversations, We've had a
lot of topics here, but this one, we gotta go
radical transparency on me. Okay, okay, no hold bart, okay, okay,
let's talk sports.
Speaker 5 (46:34):
I'm already scared.
Speaker 4 (46:37):
What is one opinion that you hold to no matter what,
no matter how much the woman next to you disagrees with.
Speaker 6 (46:46):
One thing in sports?
Speaker 7 (46:47):
In sports, yes, you gotta.
Speaker 6 (46:48):
Disagree with her sometimes. And I imagine it's.
Speaker 7 (46:50):
Not this is this is one that we go back
and forth with.
Speaker 6 (46:55):
Oh I want to hear it.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
I want to hear what you debate on in sports.
Speaker 9 (46:59):
So I'm a Pistols fans, I'm a I'm a detrader.
But during the Michael Jordan days, I rolled with the bulls.
Speaker 4 (47:07):
So our listeners, there's a thumb going down for this
powerful woman.
Speaker 7 (47:15):
It's right, yes, continue.
Speaker 9 (47:17):
Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever. So as
a kid, I was born in an eighty So as
a kid, I mean, that was my hero. So when
the Pistons walked out after they lost, after years of
terrorizing Michael Jordans and you know, being super physical and
basically cheating, beating them up.
Speaker 7 (47:37):
They.
Speaker 9 (47:39):
Walked, they walked out. They didn't shake his hand after
years of beating them up. And Jamel, she's a homer.
Speaker 7 (47:46):
She takes up for the Pistons, and to me, right
is right, Wrong is wrong. I don't care if Jamil
is wrong. She's wrong even though she's my wife.
Speaker 9 (47:57):
But the Pistons were wrong, and she she wants to
argue with me.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
I will always I'm standing firmly on the heel of
the Pistons had every right to not shake the bull's
hand because during that same series, Michael Jordan called the
Pistons illegitimated champions. It's not our fault. You couldn't beat us, okay,
and I get it. That's what's set off, That's what
set everything in motion, is that the Pistons fell some
(48:23):
kind of way because he completely devalued their championship and
Michael Jordan is so petty. That is the reason why
Isaiah Thomas wasn't on the Dream Team.
Speaker 5 (48:34):
It was because we go.
Speaker 6 (48:38):
That's what the Street Committee is.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
We have loved having the two of you be so open,
so farable, so funny, so supportive to each other, so uplifting.
Jamal sharing your story, how you've chosen to write it
and rewrite it again, how you've chosen to own it
and live it. The courage, the consequences, the leaning forward
in support, championing together in such a beautiful example. Thank
(49:03):
you for living your legacy and for sharing it with
all of us here today.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
All right, well, thank you guys. We appreciate you all
having us.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
Thank you all so much, so very much, thank you
for joining us.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
If you enjoy today's conversation, subscribe, share, and follow us
at my Legacy Movement on social media. New episodes drop
every Tuesday, with bonus content every Thursday. At its core,
this podcast honors doctor King's vision of the beloved community
and the power of connection. A Legacy Plus Studio production
(49:36):
distribute it by iHeartMedia creator and executive producer Suzanne Haywood
co executive producer Lisa Lyle. Listen on the iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, may
you find inspiration to live your legacy
One of the things you said in the past, Jamel,
is that Ian has allowed you to take your cape.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Off because strength and black women have become synonymous. And
that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be
a crippling thing in the sense that we assume that
we always have to wear this cape, and that if
we're not always the model of strength, then we're somehow
being imperfect. We also don't want to fall into the
(00:30):
trap of always thinking that we have to be somebody
else's savior, because sometimes the person that needs the most
saving is us. And what I loved about our relationship
is like, my husband's a great communicator, and even though
I might be in media, while I can certainly communicate,
I think it's always been difficult for me to communicate vulnerability,
(00:52):
for me to be comfortable in that soft place. But
when you have trust in your partner, it's easy to
be vulnerable. And so because I have such trust in him,
it's easy for me to do that.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
That was Jamel Hill, courageous journalist and unapologetic truth teller,
describing her relationship with her husband Ian Wallace, and the
freedom she's found in finally laying down the weight of
always having to be the strong one. I'm Andrea Waters
King and this is My Legacy hosted by me, my
husband Martin Luther King, IID and our good friends Mark.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Kilberger and Craig Kilberger.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Today, Jamel and her husband take us deep into the
kind of love that heals, the strength it takes to
rewrite your story, and the wisdom that only comes after
the storm. This conversation is filled with truth, insight, and
takeaways that just might shift how you show up in
your own life. And don't worry, We've also got Jamel's
(01:52):
top dating dues and don'ts for women and for men,
and the sports argument that this couple will never ever resolve.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Let's dive in.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Welcome to My Legacy. For our new listeners and viewers,
this isn't your typical solo celebrity interview. This is the
show where remarkable people pull back the curtain and bring
along the one person who has seen it all, the highs,
the lows, the heartbreaks, the one who knows the full,
unfiltered story. And today we're joined by someone who has
(02:24):
never backed down from saying what needed to be said.
Jamel Hill is a trailblazing, award winning sports journalist podcast hosts,
author and unapologetic truth teller. Whether she's calling a game
or calling out injustice, her take is always sharp, fearless,
and fiercely her own. Jamel, would you mind introducing us
(02:46):
to your best, your favorite, your plus one who you
brought here today?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Well, thank you number one for that incredible intro. And
the person that I brought with me today is somebody
who and helped my mother. Won't take this personally, but
probably knows me better than anybody, but who knows me
the best, and who has seen me through so many
ups and downs and also understands my vulnerabilities, which is
(03:13):
very important to me because those are the things I
have the most trouble.
Speaker 5 (03:16):
Showcasing and highlighting.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
My support system, my rock, someone who I think has
the highest integrity of probably any person that I know.
So I brought with me my wonderful, beloved, sexy, handsome husband,
Ian Wallace.
Speaker 6 (03:36):
That for intro.
Speaker 7 (03:37):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
By the time you did both of those, By the
time you, I mean she introduced Ian and introduced her,
I feel like saying amen.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
All around.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
All our listeners are now putting down the podcast and
putting on the video version.
Speaker 6 (03:51):
They're like, what does he look like?
Speaker 8 (03:54):
You know, we all love love stories and we all
want to hear if redtail Jimille, can you tell us
how you all story began the two of you.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, I'm sure you asked this question enough to know
that when you're speaking with a couple, both people have
different versions of how this actually happened.
Speaker 7 (04:16):
The truth, I actually tell the truth.
Speaker 5 (04:18):
Yes, yes, it's true.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
And somehow it feels like when men tell their side
of the story. It's also grossly embellished on a lot
of accounts.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
So this was twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I was still at ESPN and I had a daily
sports discussion show called Numbers Never Lie. And I came
back to Michigan State where I went to school. My
husband also went to Michigan State as well, but we
went at different times.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
They asked me to be the homecoming.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Ambassador, if you will, like, so I had to go
back be in the parade, you know, do all all
those that kind of homecoming stuff.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
And so I went back there.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
The show came there as well, just as a as
a support thing, and so you know, I was on
campus for the weekend and going around to different tailgates.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
This is game day, went to a tailgate.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It was the Black Alumni tailgate, one of my favorite
tailgates to go to when I go to a Michigan
State football game. And I was there talking to someone.
It was actually and it turned out to be a
friend of my husband's and I didn't even know him then,
and I was talking to him when my husband came up.
And as soon as he came up and started talking
to his friend, I immediately noticed, he's fine.
Speaker 5 (05:38):
So like, I'm not gonna lie like it was officially I.
Speaker 6 (05:40):
Loved you and smile. He's not saying anything. He's just
sitting there smiling.
Speaker 7 (05:44):
So far, so far?
Speaker 5 (05:46):
Okay, do I have this correct? All right? So I
was like, he's fine, Where did he come from? I'm
gonna continue this conversation.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So the three of us started to talk and there
was definitely some flirty eye energy.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Between me and my husband.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I just sort of left things there because I had
other homecoming duties that I had to do and I
did not expect to see him again. Well, fast forward
to a few hours later. They have a big party
the Black Michigan say Black Alumni. They host a big
party for homecoming weekend. I went to the party, and
sure enough I'm at the party. I look across the
dance floor and my husband is standing right there, and
(06:22):
I was like, oh, the fine guy from the tailgate.
You know, so I energy this is This is just
a little aside, a pro tip for ladies out there.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
I energy works.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
You send the right eye energy, the right body language.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
You can just bring them on to you. Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So I looked at him and I gave him that
I energy like, I need you to come over here.
Speaker 5 (06:44):
And he came over.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
He got my number, and the rest, as they say,
is history. More importantly too, pro tip for men who
are listening. He called me the next day. It wasn't
like he waited. He didn't, you know, hold it out
for a week to try to see you know, you know, yeah, cool,
he didn't.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
He called me the next day. Eye energy, yep ie energy.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
And when you see something, say something right. So, in
other words, call the next day. Don't don't play your
follow up. Don't play let her forget you follow up.
There's no need to play games with the grown woman.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
No, And so, babe, did I get that right?
Speaker 7 (07:20):
Mostly true?
Speaker 9 (07:21):
You forgot to mention love at first sight, not for me.
Speaker 7 (07:25):
For her.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
Saying, it's always always got to put a little extra
on it.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Well, okay, we got to hear your side of the story.
Love at first sight. What did you first see when
you saw her with and most importantly, when did.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
You fall hard?
Speaker 9 (07:41):
What was an instant connection when we first seen each other.
So it was crazy that we didn't exchange numbers and
we left it to fate.
Speaker 7 (07:49):
So we seen each other that.
Speaker 9 (07:50):
That same night, and she was just shining on the
dance floor. It was almost like a spotlight was on her,
and I think Keisha Cole sent from Heaven was playing
as I walked over.
Speaker 6 (08:03):
And if it wasn't, that's how it's always gonna be remembered.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
Yes, yes, yeah, it sounds good.
Speaker 6 (08:07):
Sounds good.
Speaker 9 (08:09):
But you know, as we got to know each other
and we talk more and more, it was it was
just different. You know, she was truly a unicorn. You know,
she was different from a lot of females that I
had been with in the past, and she was just
a breath of fresh air. So I struggled earlier. I
(08:29):
didn't want to fall in love. I was trying not to.
Speaker 7 (08:31):
I was like, no, it's too soon.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
One of the things you said in the past, Jamil
is that Ian has allowed you to take your cape off.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
And I love that.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I think there's so many women in general, and Black
women in particular, that feel as if we have to
be so strong for everyone and everything and to have
a soft space. And it also ties into when you
introduced him, you use the word vulnerable, that he allows
you to be vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Can you just talk a little bit and share.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
With our listeners and unfold what that means to you.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I mean, I think you're exactly right that you know
because strength and black women have become synonymous, and that's
not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a
crippling thing in the sense that we assume that we
always have to wear this cape, and that if we're
not always the model of strength, then we're somehow being imperfect.
(09:25):
And while it's true that we certainly have to have
our armor on, we certainly have to be ready for
all the things that are coming at us. We also
don't want to fall into the trap of always thinking
that we have to be somebody else's savior, because sometimes
the person that needs the most saving is us, and
probably the best thing that we can do for ourselves
(09:47):
is find people, a community, places where we don't always
have to be the one that comes up with the solution,
always have to be the one who sacrifices always, you know,
we don't have to constantly put ourselves in that mode.
I mean, listen, we say what kind of we save
the democracy? Is like at some point, like we have
to really save ourselves. And what I loved about our
(10:11):
relationship is like my husband's a great communicator, and even
though I might be in media, while I can certainly communicate,
I think it has always been difficult for me to
communicate vulnerability, for me to be comfortable in that soft
place and just organically and naturally. It was never a
conversation that we had, but it was through action and
(10:34):
through communication that it was really easy for me to
see that this was some place that I didn't have
to always feel like I had to be the strong one.
But when you have trust in your partner, it's easy
to be vulnerable. And so because I have such trust
in him, it's easy for me to do that.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So was it hard then for you to find that place?
Because I think for so many women and we love
being strong, it really is who we are. But to
have that dance of also being vulnerable, you know again,
like you know, we're out in the world, always say that,
you know, we've shown up for this country, and now
it's also time for the country to show up for us.
(11:14):
And so for you to find that space also of
being vulnerable, to have a place to fall into.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Was that scary for you at first?
Speaker 5 (11:24):
Oh, it's terrifying. You know.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Nobody goes willingly, you know, I don't want to make
it seem like, you know, vulnerability knocked on the door
and I was like, hi, I'm ready.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
Like no, it was.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
It was a process, as it is for a lot
of women, especially if you you know, independent, been used
to doing everything on your own and used to being
your own savior, like it's hard to sometimes relinquish some
of that. So then to me, the responsibility was on
me to start to open up and to share that
(11:57):
and to be more vulnerable with him, because he had
shown me that he was more than capable of being
the soft place, the landing, the place where I would
feel that sense of comfort and peace. It was then
on me to take my armor off, to take off,
you know, my battle gear, and be that person with him.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Well, Jamel, I love how you described the impact the
relationship has on you, and if I could shift it
back to you again, you know, if I could ask,
what have you experienced being in that relationship with Jamel
and how has it changed how you show up in a.
Speaker 9 (12:32):
Relationship well being with the woman who's strongest Jamail. I
was never intimidated by it. It was actually something that
I cherish, you know, just having a strong woman and
being there for And there was a wall that was up,
you know, initially when we met, but by trade, I'm
(12:53):
a salesperson, so I asked a lot of questions and
the questions were genuine.
Speaker 7 (12:58):
It was organic, you know.
Speaker 9 (13:00):
I wanted to know about her and you know, the
different experiences that she had in her life and.
Speaker 7 (13:06):
Learning from her.
Speaker 9 (13:08):
And it was funny because I remember asking questions to
her mom and she's like, why are you asking so
many questions, and it's like, I just want to know.
I'm just curious, you know, I want to know Jamel.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And by the way, I think that's an underrated ability
because I think a lot of women have experienced having
interactions with men, especially if there's like some level of
romantic interest where the men tend to talk more about
themselves and it's okay to talk about yourself because I
wanted to learn about you too.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
It is something that I always.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Keep in the back of my mind that if i'm
you know, if I'm on a date with a guy
and he doesn't ask me a single question, I think that's.
Speaker 5 (13:45):
A bit of a pink flag.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I'm like, he didn't ask me anything about myself, and
he was so different because he asked me a lot
of questions. And more importantly, I should say this because
I've told this story before and I feel like now
I have a chance to like fully clarify it is that,
you know, one of the things I loved about him
is that he never asked me about work. All of
the questions were about, you know, who I was, maybe
(14:10):
how I grew up. You know, we have a lot
of things in common. We're both from Detroit, so that
was like a natural connection between us. We both went
to Michigan State, another natural, you know, kind of connection.
And so just getting the look to know the totality
of who I am, because you know, when I was
at ESPN and you're in such a high visible position,
(14:31):
naturally a lot of men watch ESPN and they're very
familiar with the personalities on ESPN, and it was always
kind of irritating to me that if I was talking
to a guy and he's asking me forty five questions
about ESPN, like I, do you want to be on
a date with ESPN?
Speaker 5 (14:46):
Or do you want to be on a date with me?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Like, don't stop asking me about what Steven A. Smith
is like, what Skip Baylor's is like, wasn't like to
be on around the horn like I don't I don't
you know? To me, that's not really getting to know me.
That's getting to know my job.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Pro tip number four.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Now, we're gonna have like a after this, it'll be
a one two three to now.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Pro Tip number four to ask questions.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yes, man, ask questions, and don't you know, ask questions
that lead you to understand who this person is. You know,
asking how they grew up or you know how you
know what we're what were your parents right like? And
you know, asking about school and you know, and just
generally getting some texture about what made them into the
(15:32):
person that they are.
Speaker 10 (15:33):
In your earlier years as you were matriculating through your
early years of the career, and particularly as as a
black woman who were your mentors. Who were some of
your mentors or war their mentors.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
I had a lot, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Of course, everybody you know is fortunate enough to have
the people in their family be your earliest mentors. So
I had my mother who certainly always stressing of education, who.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
Whether I liked it or not, she was always on
me in terms of discipline.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
My grandmother, she also was a strong influence in my life.
She originally from the South, from Kentucky, migrated to Detroit,
you know, right before she started high school, and she
went back and got her bachelor's degree. She already had
three kids, and she was in her i think her
(16:29):
mid thirties when she went and got her bachelor's degree
from Wayne State University in Detroit. Spent her professional life
working as a social worker for the state of Michigan.
And so those were, you know, two strong women in
my life who always stressed the importance of education, of
building a life for myself, of upward mobility, and Detroit
(16:50):
as a city, because percentage wise, is the black of
city in America right now, and certainly because that's always
been such a strong part of the identity of Detroit.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Coming up through public schools in Detroit.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
The sense of identity that I had by the time
I went to college was very strong. I was blessed
and fortunate enough to have a lot of black teachers
who poured into me, and certainly early on as I
began showing an interest in writing, like I started my
journalism path in high school. You know, I was very
lucky to have started so early, and so my journalism teachers.
(17:23):
In my memoir, it was a reason why I made
sure that I acknowledged my teachers in the acknowledgment section,
because teachers don't get enough credit number one, and a
lot of times they don't know how sometimes their students
turn out. And I think it's affirming for them to
know that as much resistance as kids as we may
(17:44):
give you that seeds are still being planted even as
we're resisting. And you know, I think about my creative
writing teacher I went to Mufford High School in Detroit, MS. Blackhawk,
who I still email occasionally to this day. My journalism teacher,
Miss Sebrim, other journalism teacher, missus Platt. I still know
them because I remember the lessons that they taught me.
Speaker 5 (18:05):
So those were early mentors I love.
Speaker 6 (18:10):
That was so awesome to hear that.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
You gotta do it by name.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
And even now that I know them as adults, I
cannot call them by their first name.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
It's like impossible for me to do this. You know,
my middle school teacher, missus Johnson, and.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
You know my counselor, Miss Todd, Like I remember all
of the people who were giving me that encouraged me
planning those seeds. And when I first started working for
the Detroit Free Press, the professional paper in Detroit and
high school answering phones in the sports.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
Department, it was uh.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
They were one of the sports departments that actually had
women who were reporters. And they took me on the
sports staff, that is, and they took me under their wing.
I mean, the first time I attended professional practice, my
mentor John ed Howard, she took me. She was doing
a big story on the Detroit Lions, on their former
head coach Wayne Fonce, And that was the first time
I got to see and fell practice and seeing her
(19:02):
report and seeing her talk to different players. You know,
sometimes it may sound strange, but sometimes ignorance is bliss,
just in the sense of I was too ignorant to
know that sports journalism was something women weren't supposed to do.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Because so many people had given me the confidence that
this was where I belonged. So by the time I
started really making my way in the industry, and I
looked around the room, and in most spaces, I was
either the only black person, the only woman, and certainly
the only black woman. I had enough confidence to know
that even though this room looks like this, I belong
(19:40):
here and.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
I have just as much of a right to be
here as anybody else. So it was too late.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
They couldn't ruin my confidence by the end, right, So
I was really fortunate that I had a long list
of people who poured into me and who constantly affirmed that, hey,
you're in the right place, You're doing the right thing,
and you just have to simply keep going.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Like follow and subscribe to my Legacy podcast, and most importantly,
share this with someone who needs a reminder of their
own strength today back in a moment, now back to
my Legacy.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
You talk about courage, and I want to reflect on
what that courage has meant, because you know, very famously
in twenty eighteen, you called out President Trump's racism. You
called out Jerry Jones his stance on players taking a knee,
and that ultimately costs you your job. You know that
that's courage. And so when you talk about courage, when
(20:44):
you reflect back on that time, what did that teach
you about your voice? What does that teach you about
your values? And frankly, what did it teach you about
your willingness to risk it all for what you believe in?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Oh, I'm sure a lot of people who have been
in far more dangerous positions than that one, especially as
you know, with you all being so intimately acquainted with
the civil rights movement, is that you don't know if
you're going to.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
Meet the moment until the moment find you. You have
no idea.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So if you would have asked me before that actually happened, Hey,
if this was the scenario, what would you do? You
think you know what you would do, You think you
know how you might respond, but you don't really actually
know until you're right there in the fire. And so
all of the decisions that I made as the you know,
White House called for me to be fired, as you know,
(21:31):
Donald Trump singled me out on social media as that
was happening. I mean, I'm making mental decisions in real time,
and I had to sort of have a few moments
with myself and saying like, Okay, if this results in
you being fired, like right in this moment, what are
you gonna do?
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Or if they put it on.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
The table, hey, either apologize to the president or you're
gonna have to leave here.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
What are you gonna do?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And I every think and every cell in my body
was like, if they asked me to apologize to the president,
I'm not gonna do it. And I made that clear
very early. I'm never apologizing to him. I said what
I said, and we just got to live with that.
The other part of it, too, is like knowing that, hey,
if this is the end of the road right here.
You know, I didn't leave ESPN until a year later,
(22:20):
and I'd left on my own terms, and if at
the moment they had to make a business decision, I
just I would have.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Lived with it.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I mean, it wouldn't feel good, especially given all the
work that I put in to get to that point.
And there's not many people who get the opportunity to
anchor the six o'clock Sports Center, one of the sort
of treasured time slots at ESPN, But if that was
the result, that was the result. And at you know,
when stuff like this happens, where your integrity and your
(22:50):
character is questioned, you have to be able to live
with yourself. And I would not have been able to
live with myself had I capitulated in a way that
I think would not have spoke to who authentically I am.
So it was a lot of lessons that I've found
out in real time and just because the situation was there,
(23:14):
And I'm thankful for that, because when similar situations, maybe
not always involving the President of the United States, but
when other tests of your character, your integrity, when those
things happen, it's muscle memory. Now you're confident because you've
already done it. And I've done it at a level
(23:34):
that most people don't get to do it at. And
so when I'm in meetings or in determining business relationships
and things pop up where you have to stand on something,
I'm so much more comfortable doing that because I've already
done it before. It's very similar to an athlete. I mean,
I'm sure Michael Jordan missed a lot of game winning
(23:56):
shots before he actually made them, and when he finally
made one, it became muscle memory, and then after that
that dude was never losing. So I sort of approach
it with the mentality that an athlete might.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
So even before that happened.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Let's also go back to your beginning days of ESPN, because,
as you mentioned earlier, you found yourself in rooms where
you were, you know, most times, one, if not the
only woman, you know, certainly probably probably the only black woman.
So if we're talking about legacy on this show, you know,
(24:30):
and you at ESPN early two thousands, you know that
legacy is there. But you said about that time that
it is both isolating and yet motivating. Can you share
with our listeners a little bit by what you mean
by that?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
So the isolating part is when I was a sports
columnist at the Orlando Sentinel. This would have been in
two thousand and five and most of two thousand and six,
I was the only black female sports columnist at a
daily newspaper in North America. And notice I didn't just
say America, right, So that's one out of four hundred
(25:06):
and five newspapers, And that is an embarrassing statistic for
the profession of journalism, and a lot of people might
have thought that that would have given me some sense
of accomplishment.
Speaker 5 (25:19):
It did not.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
What it was communicating to me, and even worse, communicating
to other women who might want to get in the business,
is that your voices aren't necessary nor are they valued.
And so that's the isolating part, and you know it
also comes with a lot of scrutiny because you're the
only one and a lot of black people have been
in this situation in all industries. Is that when you're
(25:44):
the only one, you then become the test case, right,
So you have to carry yourself a certain way because
you are living with the burden of if I mess up,
no one else is coming after me.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
Black people aren't perfect, right.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
So it's like, if I make some junior mistakes or whatever,
if that's the reason why you won't see value in
black women having voices in the sports space, then that,
to me reflects more on you than it does on me.
So you're carrying all of this, but at the same time,
you know, getting to ESPN, a place that is considered
(26:20):
to be for our profession at the very top, if
you're in sports media, being the most powerful sports media
company in America, then you know there's something to be
celebrated by being able to advance and take that step
and realize that all the hard work has brought you
to this place and brought you to this sense of elevation.
(26:41):
But it's always to me about who is able to
come behind you. As a result, now, UESPN is in
a very different position because they can hire whoever they want,
and you look at their team picture and it's very
diverse because they have a lot of women. And even
before I got there, Robin Roberts was the one who
set the table, you know, and so they've always had
(27:05):
a steady pipeline of women of color and putting them
in certain positions. Where I was a little bit different
is that they were traditional anchors, and I was one
of the few that were able to develop a foot
hole and an imprint at ESPN by giving my opinion,
by creating conversation based off my perspective and my experience
(27:30):
that I had as a sports journalist over the course
of many years. So I was very thrilled to be there,
but I also was fully aware that if I walk
into one more room and I'm the only one in there,
that's not a good room. It's like I've never been
one of those people. And there, unfortunately, are some people
(27:51):
of color who are like this that they do.
Speaker 5 (27:52):
Want to be the only one in the room.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
I don't want to be the only one in the
room because I don't know everything. I don't represent the
entire totality of women of black women.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
I do not do that.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
And so it's important that we all you know, when
we go in these rooms, that is not just about
getting in the room. It's about getting in the room
and kind of breaking it up and opening the door even.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Wider so that more of us. So it's a you know,
a flood of us coming in.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
I loved when Kamala Harris said upon accepting the vice presidency,
I might be the first, but I won't be the last.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I love that sentiment.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
And so here you are at you know, ESPN, you know,
seemingly from the outside, you know, riding on top of
the world. Then you had this unfair attack and this
fall from where you had worked so hard to be.
But throughout all of that Ian was there, and he,
(28:49):
you know, walked with you through that storm and was
always at your side. So my question is for you, Ian,
and particularly for couples that are listening right now, and
if they're going through the storm, they're watching someone that
they love go through the storm. What advice would you
have for couples walking that path.
Speaker 9 (29:10):
I believe communication is the key, you know, constant communication.
When Jamel had when she was going through her storm,
really first and foremost, I wanted to make sure that
I was there and she felt my presence and she
knew that she wasn't alone. We had a lot of
good times and that was probably the most challenging part
(29:31):
of our relationship up up to that point. So my
biggest thing was making sure that she didn't feel alone,
making sure that she felt my presence and we were
going to get through this together. And naturally, I'm a fixer,
so sometimes I have to dial that back because sometimes
she may just want to vent and she just needs
a listening ear versus you know, solution after solution. But
(29:55):
my goal was to remain positive throughout the entire situation
because I knew something good would come from it, and
a lot of things came from it that were.
Speaker 7 (30:04):
Good on a positive note.
Speaker 9 (30:06):
So just positivity and communication would be my advice to
any couples going through any type of turmoil.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah, and I remember when I got suspended, So I
had a two week suspension. I think I spent the
first week with you, right, So I and you know
that to me said a lot about our relationship. Is
that My immediate instinct after I got suspended was I
need to hop on the plane and I need to
be with him, right because I knew that the comfort
(30:35):
I was looking for, I knew the solace I was
looking for. I knew all of that could be found
in him. And you know that spoke volumes about our
you know, relationship, and I know it probably wasn't the
easiest from you in the sense of that. You know,
here you have me being discussed on all these news channels,
and you know he's also in the corporate world, so
(30:58):
you have colleagues that are watching.
Speaker 9 (31:00):
Well. The challenge for me was, you know, under normal circumstances,
if I was dating a regular woman, if she got
into an issue with someone at work, I would just
go up there and have a.
Speaker 7 (31:09):
Conversation with that.
Speaker 9 (31:10):
With it being the president of the United States, so
it was a little handcom So it was a little
challenging for me.
Speaker 7 (31:17):
So, and that's another thing.
Speaker 9 (31:18):
You know, we have fun, so making her laugh and
just making her feel comfortable.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
I think what are for our viewers and listeners who
might not know you as well.
Speaker 7 (31:26):
I don't think they would.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Fully understand that your story is one of incredible courage,
Like people would, I think, be surprised that you would
take on the President of the United States until they
actually understand more about your origin. You know, you wrote
about your mom, you wrote about you know, families battling
with addiction, you wrote about you know, the challenges that
you overcame in your life and your origin story. Can
(31:50):
you bring some of our our listeners more deeply into
those moments that shaped who you were on just a
very fundamental level and and what actually was I'm curious
to aspast what was the hardest part to reveal that,
to share that with people?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Well, I wanted, you know, I wanted to be as
transparent with the people reading as I when I sit
across and interview people, as I want them to be
with me. And I wanted to kind of leave it
all out there because a lot of times, especially if
people view you as being successful, they see the picture
(32:26):
before them now, they don't see what it took to
get to that, right, And so I think it's important
to share that so that people understand that, listen, we're
all going to face challenges, we all have some kind
of trauma we're dealing with, but those are things that
do not have to define your journey. And it was
especially important for me to share the fact that, you know,
(32:47):
I grew up in Detroit, growing up there, you know,
I'm a med seventies baby, So by the time I
was coming of age, it's like, you know, that's when
a lot of crime, a.
Speaker 5 (32:56):
Lot of drugs have really sieged on.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
And unfortunately, you know, my father and also my mother,
they battled through a drug addiction during a time where
a lot of people in Detroit were battling with those
same things. And you know, not just sort of the
drug addiction having a particular legacy in my family, but
also sexual trauma and sexual abuse as well, and so
(33:24):
dealing with those issues early on in life were as
debilitating as they could be at times for my mother
in particular, they also were preparing me for a journey
that I didn't even realize that I was going to
be on. And so later on, you know, you fast
forward to when I get into it with the President,
(33:46):
and a lot of people were you know naturally asking
me like are you okay, and you know, how are
you making it through? It was like, if you knew
what I made through before I even got to this point,
you would see why I laugh at that question. It's
like it wouldn't even rank in the top twenty of
worse things that I've been through. I mean, yes, it
played out very publicly, and you know, there were some
(34:07):
professional challenges I've had to overcome as a result, and
to be frank still over having to overcome.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
Because he's back in office.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
So yeah, while having to deal with that, it did
not compare to having to up close witness my mother
battle a drug addiction, and so I wanted to make
sure that I wrote very honestly about those moments because
there are a lot of people who deal with addiction
in their family, and I wanted to hopefully for people
(34:39):
remove the layer of shame, because there's nothing that you
should feel ashamed of if you come from a background
that is similar to the one that I came from.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
And because I do have that.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Upbringing of being, you know, the child of addicts and
seeing some of the things that I've seen, it gives
me actually incredible perspective as a person and as a
journalist as well, because I think as a journalist you're
not very.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
Good if you can't write with empathy.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
And I think, as I've reported on a number of
different stories, some in sports from outside of sports, I'm
able to take that empathy into these different situations, and
I think people give people who are reading or watching
an honest reflection about the complications of life. So it's
(35:32):
funny because when my mother and I did Red Table Talk,
we kind of had this kind of back and forth
about that because when I told her that the things
she had gone through, you know, really I wouldn't be
where I am if she hadn't gone through those But
she sees it another way that is more of an
indication of her failure.
Speaker 5 (35:50):
It's like you.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Should not have had to have seen that to learn
those lessons. You know, mothers obviously they always want to
protect you, and I do understand why she would say that,
but I don't know that if I would have Strange
as it may sound, because all the things I went
through are things statistically you're not supposed to make it
to where I am. But I don't think I would
(36:11):
have made it had I not gone through those things.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
One of the things that I keep thinking as I
listen to your story and the more and more I
get to know you, is that this whole you know,
thinking of my dear, they tried to crush you, but
they didn't know, Darling, that you are a diamond. So
every single piece of pressure and crushing actually was revealing
more and more and more of that brilliance of a diamond.
(36:38):
And for anybody that's going through something tough, for challenging,
if you're there and you're surviving it, you know, just
remember too, that thing that's trying to crush you, they
don't know that you are a diamond. And when I
think of you as a little a little one, I
can't help but wonder Ian, if you could sit with
a younger version of your phenomenal wife, what would you
(37:02):
say to her?
Speaker 7 (37:05):
The future is bright?
Speaker 5 (37:07):
The future the heck of a question.
Speaker 7 (37:10):
That was a great question. It was a great question.
Speaker 9 (37:12):
Yeah, I mean, just I would echo the same things
that Jamel mentioned, just in terms of everything that you're
about to experience is going to prepare you for life.
It's going to prepare you to deal with the different
things that you'll encounter life. And while it may be hard,
the things that you're experiencing, it's going to make you tougher,
(37:34):
and it's going to make you better and better equipped
to deal with your future.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
You know, a lot of times we don't know what
exactly that we are being prepared for. And I think, uh,
you know, knowing the person that you are and just
how you're built and the way that you know you move.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Is the.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I often marvel at our relationship from the standpoint of like,
I think, if you to ask me in my twenties,
you know, what's the.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
Kind of man that you want?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
And to me, this is more a reflection to my
immaturity and who you are is like, I don't think
I would have been able to come up with the
characteristics that you have because I just wasn't thinking on
that level, right, Like, I don't think if you'd ask
me a twenty five like what kind of man do
you want?
Speaker 5 (38:21):
I might have named a job. I might have named
like how somebody look.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
But I wouldn't say, like, you know, what matters to
me is that you know somebody that gives you a
sense of calm and peace, somebody who makes you laugh,
Like I don't know that I would have said that then,
or somebody who carries himself with this level of integrity,
that you know, that you can trust, that you.
Speaker 5 (38:41):
Know has a good heart, that treats people a certain.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Way kindness like I would not have probably named those things,
and you're all of those things.
Speaker 9 (38:49):
Yeah, I definitely would have told young Jamail to stop
wasting a time your career.
Speaker 7 (38:55):
You don't really need to date something.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Something good is around the port and it'll be we
had a Michigan state right.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
Oh, you don't have to wait till you almost forty.
But it's going to.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
Blake, follow and subscribe to my Legacy podcast. Will be
back in a moment. Now back to my Legacy.
Speaker 8 (39:26):
You've said athletes can become the new civil rights voices.
Speaker 10 (39:30):
How do you think sports can become a voice for
social change right now?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Athletes have a lot more power than I think they realize.
I mean, I don't think it's just a plast to them.
I think it applies to.
Speaker 5 (39:39):
Us in general as people.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Because you know, what's the other adage, The greatest way
you can take away somebody's powers to convince them they
don't have any. And there's a lot of us that
have been convinced that we don't have any and so
we sort of sit in this cycle of apathy a
lot of times, you know, allowing things to happen to us,
rather than going back from fighting for what we want.
(40:02):
And athletes sit in a very unique position, especially black athletes,
because if it's one thing we definitely care about in
this country, it's sports, and they are able to one.
Sports is one of the few things that still bring
us together. Like we're a very divided country, politically divided
when it comes to the religion, but yet and still,
(40:23):
if you know, you guys are in Atlanta, if the
Falcons are having a great season, you have a Muslim fan,
you have a Christian fan, black white, you know, queer fan,
different genders, different races, different socioeconomic background, y'all will all
come together and cheer for the Falcons. And so that's
(40:45):
the power that sports still has in our society.
Speaker 5 (40:50):
And because it has that power, athletes have the.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Position to get people to consider things and to look
at things in a different way. It's amazing how people
respond when their favorite athlete speaks to that experience something
they may not be familiar with. I go back to
when Trayvon Martin was murdered, and the first athletes to
(41:14):
take a stand and to bring awareness to that where
the Miami Heat when they had Lebron and d Wade
and they all they just took a picture all of
them wearing hoodies and they I think it was d
Wade who talked about how Trayvon Martin could have been
their son. And that is a message that resonated. And
next thing you know, you saw people of all races
(41:37):
changing their avatars on.
Speaker 5 (41:39):
Social media wearing hoodies.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
And you know, we have examples throughout history of where
when athletes use their politically, when they use their platform
to speak to injustice, to speak to you know, social
justice overall. Just how powerful that can be because people
are much more likely to receive it if it comes
(42:03):
from someone they already admire.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
It's our turn now in the long march toward freedom.
And one of the ways in which you do that
also personally, is through your podcast splot Tics.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Did I say that politics is politics politics in general?
The whole point of the podcast was to connect the
dots between sports and politics. And as much and as
popular as it is for sports fans to say either
I don't want politics and sports or I just want
to escape.
Speaker 5 (42:35):
Politics is all around you in sports, whether you like
it or not.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
One of the biggest stories of the past few weeks
was that the Department of Defense trying to erase Jackie
Robinson's legacy, and that is very much a sports story
as it is a political story because of what Jackie
Robinson stood for, and also an opportunity for people to
understand that his legacy stretches beyond just him in a
(43:00):
lating Major League Baseball in nineteen forty seven, which by
the way, was what some twenty some years before we
got the Civil Rights Act, in the Voting Rights Act.
It was before you know, preceded you know, Brown versus
the Board of Education.
Speaker 5 (43:13):
So it's sports is often in a position to.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Lead YEP in these difficult areas, and so I just
wanted people to remind or to be reminded that that
relationship has been there from the starts. Politics have literally
always been a part of sports.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
We have a project called Realize the Dream, which is
to unite the country through service with one hundred million
hours of service collectively together pledged and committed by my
father in law's one hundredth birthday and twenty twenty nine.
One of the things that we are incredibly honored to
say is that every major sports league has signed up
(43:54):
to join in the Realize the Dream initiative. So we
have the NFL inspired change, we have have Major League Baseball,
and we also have the NBA that are all coming
together with us, joining forces with us to get the
world out and get into communities to do some service together.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Well, let's talk sports.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Let's just two women talking sports. So I have to
ask before we wrap up. We're getting ready to add
into the NBA playoffs, correct, So what do you think
will be the some of the biggest stories from the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Well, unfortunately they won't involve Atlanta, so I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Sorry, I'll tell you that I do believe.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Shay Gilgess Alexander, who plays with Oklahoma City Thunder, I
think he's going to be the MVP.
Speaker 5 (44:43):
He's getting quite a chase from NICOLEA.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Jokisch who plays for Denver, but I think it will
be his and that'll be interesting because I believe that
would make it the fifth straight year that the NBA
MVP has gone to a foreign born player, which is
going to create a lot of interesting conversations around the league.
Speaker 5 (45:02):
I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
I do think this is Oklahoma City's year to make
the NBA finals.
Speaker 5 (45:07):
They're going to get there. They've been the best.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Team all season, and I know that there is a
level of doubt because they're still young, and people kind
of have a hard time wrapping their minds around the fact, like, oh, okay, see,
sure they are. You know, I think they faced a
lot of that last year, but I think after losing
and being a year more experienced, it feels like them.
I think it's gonna be a okay see Boston Celtics final.
(45:37):
And as much as it pains me to say, because
you know, we're from Detroit so we're Pistons fans, I
do think Boston is going to win the title again.
But the good thing we have to look forward to
is our Pistons will be in the playoffs. We have
been irrelevant for too long. We were the worst team
(45:59):
in NBA last year. We I don't know if we
set the record for most losses in a brow. Yeah, yeah,
we set and it was a hell of a turnaround
to go from that to us now being firmly solidly
in the playoffs. Like that, I'm if you ask me
the thing I'm most excited about for the NBA playoffs,
it is seeing the Pistons back in the playoffs.
Speaker 6 (46:22):
Okay, I'm gonna put you in the hot seat thing.
Speaker 7 (46:24):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
So we've had a lot of conversations, We've had a
lot of topics here, but this one, we gotta go
radical transparency on me. Okay, okay, no hold bart, okay, okay,
let's talk sports.
Speaker 5 (46:34):
I'm already scared.
Speaker 4 (46:37):
What is one opinion that you hold to no matter what,
no matter how much the woman next to you disagrees with.
Speaker 6 (46:46):
One thing in sports?
Speaker 7 (46:47):
In sports, yes, you gotta.
Speaker 6 (46:48):
Disagree with her sometimes. And I imagine it's.
Speaker 7 (46:50):
Not this is this is one that we go back
and forth with.
Speaker 6 (46:55):
Oh I want to hear it.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
I want to hear what you debate on in sports.
Speaker 9 (46:59):
So I'm a Pistols fans, I'm a I'm a detrader.
But during the Michael Jordan days, I rolled with the bulls.
Speaker 4 (47:07):
So our listeners, there's a thumb going down for this
powerful woman.
Speaker 7 (47:15):
It's right, yes, continue.
Speaker 9 (47:17):
Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever. So as
a kid, I was born in an eighty So as
a kid, I mean, that was my hero. So when
the Pistons walked out after they lost, after years of
terrorizing Michael Jordans and you know, being super physical and
basically cheating, beating them up.
Speaker 7 (47:37):
They.
Speaker 9 (47:39):
Walked, they walked out. They didn't shake his hand after
years of beating them up. And Jamel, she's a homer.
Speaker 7 (47:46):
She takes up for the Pistons, and to me, right
is right, Wrong is wrong. I don't care if Jamil
is wrong. She's wrong even though she's my wife.
Speaker 9 (47:57):
But the Pistons were wrong, and she she wants to
argue with me.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
I will always I'm standing firmly on the heel of
the Pistons had every right to not shake the bull's
hand because during that same series, Michael Jordan called the
Pistons illegitimated champions. It's not our fault. You couldn't beat us, okay,
and I get it. That's what's set off, That's what
set everything in motion, is that the Pistons fell some
(48:23):
kind of way because he completely devalued their championship and
Michael Jordan is so petty. That is the reason why
Isaiah Thomas wasn't on the Dream Team.
Speaker 5 (48:34):
It was because we go.
Speaker 6 (48:38):
That's what the Street Committee is.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
We have loved having the two of you be so open,
so farable, so funny, so supportive to each other, so uplifting.
Jamal sharing your story, how you've chosen to write it
and rewrite it again, how you've chosen to own it
and live it. The courage, the consequences, the leaning forward
in support, championing together in such a beautiful example. Thank
(49:03):
you for living your legacy and for sharing it with
all of us here today.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
All right, well, thank you guys. We appreciate you all
having us.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
Thank you all so much, so very much, thank you
for joining us.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
If you enjoy today's conversation, subscribe, share, and follow us
at my Legacy Movement on social media. New episodes drop
every Tuesday, with bonus content every Thursday. At its core,
this podcast honors doctor King's vision of the beloved community
and the power of connection. A Legacy Plus Studio production
(49:36):
distribute it by iHeartMedia creator and executive producer Suzanne Haywood
co executive producer Lisa Lyle. Listen on the iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, may
you find inspiration to live your legacy
Hosts And Creators
Craig Kielburger
Marc Kielburger
Martin Luther King III
Arndrea Waters King
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