August 5, 2025 • 34 mins
NYT bestselling author and influential voice on leadership and connection, Simon Sinek, joins hosts Martin Luther King III, Arndrea Waters King, Marc Kielburger, and Craig Kielburger for his most personal conversation yet.
From the heartbreak that shaped his worldview to his radical approach to connection, Simon unpacks the hidden skills of friendship, how to listen without fixing, and why discomfort is key to healing division.
- Why your friendships may be failing—and how to fix them
- The skill of “extreme listening” and how it builds bridges across any divide
- What to say (and not say) when someone you love is in pain
Don’t miss an episode – subscribe now to catch new episodes every Tuesday and bonus content every Thursday. And watch full episodes on YouTube every Wednesday.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Comparison is the thief of joy. We sit at home
by ourselves, scrolling thinking I hate my life.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Simon Senek's visionary take on purpose made his ted dot
a global phenomenon with over sixty million views.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
So I mean you've impacted all of our lives, and
you've impacted millions of people's lives.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Now one of the most inspiring voices on leadership and purpose,
an author of three New York Times bestsellers, joins us
for his most personal conversation yet.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
My sister was engaged to be married, and two weeks
before her wedding, her fiance was tragically killed right in
front of her.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
He opens up about loss and learning and takes us
inside why we're more lonely than ever and what it
takes to change that.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I think we take friends for granted, you go for
a couple's therapy, but nobody goes for friends therapy when
your friendships are in trouble.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
He shows us what most people get wrong about connecting
in a divided world.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
To allow someone to feel her doesn't mean you have
to agree with.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Him, and if it triggers you join host Martin Luther
King the Third, Andrea Waters King, Mark Kilberger and Craig
Hilberger for an unflingingly honest look at how we build
trust and navigate differences, especially in a culture that thrives
on division.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
If you live in the United States, you have a
needle in your arm and I think, I said, how
can you be so stupid? And she stops in her tracks.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
And say, today we're doing things a little bit differently
on My Legacy Podcast. Earlier this year, we released our
book What Is My Legacy, realizing a new dream of connection, love,
and fulfillment. It redefines legacy not as something that you
leave behind, but something you live every day through your actions, connections,
(01:39):
and the impact you create. In the book, all of
us as hosts share deeply personal stories alongside powerful contributors
from incredible voices like Milinda French Gates, Yara Shihidi, Billy Porter,
Martin Sheen, and Dan Rather. One theme readers loved was
about deepening connection with yourself, others, and the world, So
we wanted to bring in one of the book's contributors
(01:59):
to dive in. Simon Sinek. You know him from his
New York Times best selling books. He's inspired millions with
his ideas on leadership, connection, relationship, and of course purpose.
He is a dear friend of the four of ours.
So Simon, welcome to my Legs and podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
One of the themes from the book is about strengthening
connections with yourself with others the world. I know how
much you adore your.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Niece and a nephew.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
Uh so, but what do you see as the main
obstacle to people finding true connection.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I think there's many things that get in the way
of us forming true connection. One is, uh I think
we take friends for granted. You know, everybody knows you
have to work hard in marriage, like marriage takes work.
Everybody knows that. And when marriages have have trouble, you
(02:55):
get help. You go, you go for therapy, you go
for couples therapy, but nobody for friends therapy when your
friendships are in trouble. I love that. You know, nobody
thinks that friendships take work. We sort of take them
for granted. Like if you guys have a massive fight,
you don't default to divorce. We're in friendships. You have
a massive fight, and people like I don't think I
(03:16):
can do this friendship anymore. We're sort of much more
disposable about friendships for some reason. I don't know why.
Maybe there's no contract. Maybe that's the reason. And if
you ask the best couples, like the couples that we
look at and admire and be like, I want a
marriage like theirs, And if you ask them, what's your secret,
they all say the same thing. It's hard work, and
we do the work. And I don't know anybody in
friendship who says friendship is hard work, and we do
the work. And so I think one of the reasons
(03:38):
we have so much disconnection in the world is we
actually are not very good at the skill of being
a friend. You know, would you cancel on a friend
for a meeting? Would you cancel in a meeting for
a friend? Oh, but my friends would understand. You don't
think the people in the meeting would understand. And that's
the problem. I think we deprioritize friends almost always, quote
(03:58):
unquote because the unders Yes we can blame social media,
it absolutely is a contributing factor. Yes we can blame
post lockdown world, you know, absolutely a factor. But I
think deeper than all of those things is we lack
the skills to be a friend.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
It's interesting because I reflect on this time and this
is the beautiful part of being able to have a
conversation with someone who we spent so much time with.
And there was one of these moving moments when we
were talking as a group and you talked about friends
that politically you very much disagreed with. Oh the story
I'm sharing here. Yeah, yeah, And you had a choice
there because you could have acted not exactly out of
respect and kind of called her out.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I think it was her.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
It was in that moment and you saw how to
build bridges and stuff.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
A friend of mine, she and I see the world
very differently. She's a conspiracy theorist and I view the
world differently. And she came to visit me in New
York and we were going for a long walk and
she said something that I disagreed with politically or worldviewee,
and I thought definitely, And I think I said, how
(05:01):
can you be so stupid? And she stops in her
tracks and says, you just called your friend stupid. And
I realized how judgmental it was to just because I
disagree with someone's worldview that I think they're dumb, Because
on both sides of the political aal both sides think
the other are the sheeple, you know. And so we
were both confronted with the situation of somebody, a friend
(05:24):
who we both care about and love, which is each other.
Now what? And we could have abandoned the friendship. We
could have just said, this is not going to work.
I don't see the world the way you see it.
But we chose instead to figure out how to talk
and how to communicate. And we didn't do what you know,
is usually suggested for Thanksgiving dinners, which is, you know,
just don't bring it up.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
We brought it all up, and we learned how to
listen to each other without judgment, but with curiosity. We
learned how to allow the other person to say what
they needed to say to the point where you could
find something that you did agree with or that was
based on truth, and at the moment of affirmation we
could build upon that. We're actually very open to each
other's points of view. And to this day, I just
(06:07):
talked to her last week. I absolutely adore and love her,
and she feels the same about me. And we talk
about this all the time. We talk about that we're different,
We talk about that our friendship as a model for
how the world could work. And we talk about how
we don't agree on everything and we see the world differently,
but at the end of the day, we share the
same values. At the end of the day, we offer
each other a safe space to be our true selves.
(06:30):
At the end of the day, we found ways to
communicate and put our judgments aside and embrace curiosity. And
because of that friendship, I am a better human being.
And I think people who avoid tension simply because it's difficult,
I don't think they're taking the opportunity to grow as
a person. That doesn't mean that that person has to
be your friend. I'm not suggesting that at all, But
(06:51):
I am suggesting that the challenge to sit in discomfort
with someone where you feel triggered, or you want to
be defensive but you want to fight back, or you
want to be right and you want to prove them wrong,
are not the instincts for any kind of friendship or relationship.
And remember, even beyond the friendships that we have, that
is how you find peace. You cannot make peace with
(07:13):
your friends. You can only make peace.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
With your enemies.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
And so if you can't learn to listen to someone
who you consider an enemy or on the polar opposite
of how you see the world, then peace is non existent.
And when I talk about world peace, I don't I'm
not so foolhardy to believe that we can live in
a world without conflict. That's nonsense, that doesn't exist. When
I talk about world peace, I imagine a world in
which we can resolve all conflict peacefully. You're going to
(07:39):
have conflict, but can you resolve that conflict peacefully? And
change starts at home? We can't criticize our politicians and
our governments for their inability to find peace across an
aisle if we're incapable of having a conversation with somebody
we disagree with.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Because I think for listeners and watchers or those who
are following this, they like everyone's got their friend who
politically they have the different views of or maybe on
you know, faith, politics, whatever it happens to be. That
often pulls us apart. But you found a little bit
of the roadmap how to build.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So the mistake that we make when we talk to
someone with whom we see the world in a diametrically
opposed way is we interrupt, We attempt to correct facts,
We are sometimes triggered by what they say. We get
defensive and we tend to make the argument for our
(08:31):
case before they've even finished making the argument for theirs.
And so one of the challenges. And it is a skill.
It's just a learnable, practicable skill, you know. That's that's
all it is is to allow someone to feel heard. Right,
to allow someone to feel heard doesn't mean you have
(08:52):
to agree with them, doesn't mean you have to see
the world the way they see it. Your only job
is to listen to their story. The story doesn't have
to be true. It's their story, and your job is
to listen to their story. And if it triggers you,
you put that aside and you wait. You'll have your turn.
Don't worry. And remember there's a big difference between listening
(09:14):
and waiting for your turn to speak. Listening is listening
for meaning. Listening is listening to the point where they
feel heard, not that you think you heard the words.
And this is what my friend and I figured out
how to do, which is one of us went first
and said, tell me what you think, and the other
one started talking, and all the other did was tell
(09:36):
me more, go on, that's interesting. I don't understand. Can
you say it differently and just allow them to get
it all out and invariably we will always find something
we agree on always and what at that point one
of us can say that's true or I completely agree.
(09:57):
The other person is now seen, The other person feels
hurt in that moment. The other person now becomes open
to your point of view, even if your point of
view is different, simply because you showed them the respect
to feel heard. The most extreme version of this, and
it's fascinating to watch, is a documentary called White Right
(10:19):
Meeting the Enemy by Dia Khan. Dia is a Muslim
woman who lives in the UK and she made some
comments on the BBC about multicultural society, and some of
her comments went viral in the white supremacist world. She
was trolled so badly by the white supremacists that the
police actually advised her to stay away from open windows.
(10:40):
That's how bad it got. The way that she responded
was to move to the United States and get to
know white supremacists. She sought them out, and she didn't
seek them out to disagree with them, vilify or yell
at them. She sought them out to listen to them.
She tells stories of when she was younger, how she,
as a young girl living in Scandinavia, would go to
(11:00):
counter protests, you know, arians, counter protests white supremacists, and
she would spit on these white supremacists and when they
would she'd leave with her friends high five and they
all felt self righteous that they did good. And at
the end of the day she realized she moved the needle.
The needle zero zero. She just made herself feel good.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
That was it.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
And so she took a very different approach and she
did something that for most of us, just hearing about
it sounds sort of just anathema to what we believe,
which is she offered them a safe space to feel heard. Now,
we will say things like they don't deserve us, but
who's going to go first, because they're definitely not giving
her a safe space to feel heard. So she offered
(11:43):
them a safe space to feel heard. She didn't agree
with them, but she listened, and she showed up with
incredible curiosity, and over the course of time, they started
to view her as a friend, and they started to
trust her, and something strange started happen, which is they
could no longer reconcile their racist views of the world
(12:03):
with the fact that they viewed this Muslim woman as
their friend. And so one by one they started dropping
out of the movement. It's a slower it's a slower
process than what I think we hope, which to scream
and yell and then everything changes, which by the way,
has never ever ever worked. But if she can listen
to a white supremacist, we can listen to each other.
(12:24):
And it's just an extreme version. And I called it
extreme listening of what allowing someone to empty their bucket
looks like. It takes practice. It takes a lot of practice.
And go far away from white supremacists, go far away
from political adversaries, and go back home. Go back to
(12:47):
your relationships with your spouse, with your friends, with your siblings,
where we disagree all the time, where we defend ourselves,
where somebody brings emotions and we respond with facts, like
six times you did this to me last week. I'm like, well,
I only did it four times, it doesn't matter how
many times. Well, if you want to have a fight
with me, get your facts right. No, don't do that.
(13:08):
That doesn't work. And so I think these skills, the
skill of active listening, though invaluable in the creation of peace,
is I think an absolute essential on a daily basis
for functional relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I love that coming up Simon gets personal and shares
what it was like walking alongside his sister through unimaginable
tragedy and how that moment changed the way he shows
up for everyone he loves. Don't forget to share this
with anyone learning how to show up and with those
who already do.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Now back to my legacy.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
Obviously, you've inspired millions about finding their why. I have
a very dear friend speaking of friends, and she always,
you know, tells me her name is Julie Andrea. You
know what is your why? If I'm getting ready to
do a speech, I am so turned on when I
feel inspired, filled with spirit and being able to share
(14:04):
that so like no, that's my why. Another one of
my wives is the Beloved Community, which you know, people
think it's a place of utopia. It's not. It truly
is just a society at peace with itself, and we
start that piece of being at peace with yourself. I
am curious for someone struggling to align their daily habits
(14:27):
with their long term purpose. What would be your advice to.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Them, well, Number one, I think the concept of long
term purpose or an infinite purpose, that it starts there.
I think most people confuse long term in years versus lifelong.
You know, if you ask some people their long term purpose,
you know, you hear things like, you know, to become
(14:51):
a mom, you know, to get a million dollars, you know,
to become a CEO, to start a business. Those are
goals achievable. May not be easy, and you may fail,
but eminently achievable. True purpose lives beyond our lifetime, and
you don't feel like you're in a game where there's
(15:13):
a beginning, middle, and end, but you feel like you're
a part of a continuum. You know. One of the
things the US Marine Corps does is they instill the
history of the Marine Corps in their marines. They have
to learn the dates of important battles, they have to
learn the names of their heroes, they have to learn
the failures and the losses. And the reason they do
this is because they want the marines to understand that
(15:34):
their job doesn't start today, it was started many many
years before them, and they cannot let the sacrifices of
those who came before them go in vain. They have
a responsibility to uphold and protect the sacrifices of the
marines who preceded them and prepare the world for those
that will follow them. And there's data that shows that
(15:55):
when you see yourself not at the beginning, but in
the middle as responsible for came before and responsible for
what comes after, you actually make better decisions. You know,
they've showed this with kids. Kids who know some about
their own family history as little as like knowing the
history of their grandparents, will actually make better decisions because
they don't see the world as starting with them. They
(16:16):
are given responsibility to protect something. So I think when
you have long term vision, you don't see it as
a story. It's not your story. It's a story that
you're a part of. And the other thing that I
think I learned this lesson the hard way, and I
think some people struggle with this lesson at every age
(16:37):
is to ask for help. I think we fear asking
for help, We fear admitting we don't know. We believe
falsely that it undermines our credibility or that we're not
worthier action able to do the things that we talk
about doing. If we say I don't know, nothing could
be further from the truth, And turns out when I
(16:57):
learned the hard way, because I got back and beaten
before you know, I had to ask for help because
I couldn't do it myself. I was surrounded by people
who wanted to help me, but they never offered because
they didn't think I needed it because I was lying, hiding,
and faking every day. And it turns out the minute
I said I don't know, my credibility went up because
(17:18):
everybody knows you don't know everything, so if you admit it,
they think you're more trustworthy. So I think when you
have a vision of what you'd like to be a
part of, which is different of what I'd like to achieve.
If you have a vision of what you'd like to
be a part of, start saying to people, this is
what I believe, and I don't know how to do it.
(17:39):
This is what I believe, and I need help. This
is what I believe, and I don't even know where
to start. Because what ends up happening is people who
believe what you believe will show up. People who believe
what you believe will start introducing you to people who
share that same vision and the solutions become pretty self
evident pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
You do show up for people, and that's something that
we love about you. But you also showed up for
your sister Sarah at a really important time, and we
were wondering if you could potentially share that when she
unfortunately lost her fiance near the wedding date and you
were there at a really critical juncture for her, and
you talk to us about that.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
That is true. My sister was engaged to be married
many years ago, and two weeks before her wedding, her
fiance was tragically killed right in front of her. And
it was awful, and it was on the front page
of all the newspapers the next day in New York
because it was so awful, and uh, you know, families
(18:42):
do what families do, which is they you got your
kick into gear, and in this horrible tragedy, it does
actually make you closer. But the courage was not mine.
In the courage was hers. I kind of imagine what
it felt like. I could only hold space for the feelings.
(19:09):
And she's the most remarkable person I know, because she
proved that you can move forwards from anything.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
She still has a picture of her fiance in her
in her house, and she has a husband and she's
got two magical kids and she's happily married and great
mom and like, no matter what tragedies we face, like
you can get through it. You can't get through it alone.
You cannot get through it alone, but you can't get
(19:39):
through it. And you know, it's such an extreme example
of making it through something. You know, we talk a
lot about post traumatic stress, we very rarely talk about
postramatic growth. And tragedy can can destroy you, but tragedy
can can help you be a even greater version that
(20:03):
you could have been without it. And I think the
difference is the support structure. I think the difference is
entirely the support structure, but the courage is hers. And
you know, no matter what happens in my life that
sets me back on my back foot, you know, it
pales in comparison to what she had to get through.
But no, no, she deserves all the credit.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
I love the post dramatic growth concept. I've never quite
heard it that way. It's extremely powerful. I think for
me and our listeners that's a very tangible takeaway.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And it's a real thing. I mean, it is written
about it's not my concept. It is a thing, and
there are people that thrive after stragedy. Doesn't mean it
doesn't hurt, doesn't mean they don't carry baggage. It doesn't
mean that there isn't pain. It doesn't mean that if
they think about it, it won't bring them to tears. It'll
do all those things. It doesn't mean we ignore it
(20:54):
or block it out, and it doesn't mean we suppress.
But the way she puts it is, you know, she
spent many years high from it, and then she just
realized it's just part of my story. Like if I
tell my story, it's part of my story, and I
guess it's part of mine too.
Speaker 6 (21:09):
Someone how has her strength inspired the way you think
about resilience and connection.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
She and I have a pretty amazing relationship and when
we talk a thousand times a day. I live in
Los Angeles to be near them, to be near that family. Yeah,
I mean, she's a constant inspiration to me. She's the
most remarkable person you'll ever meet.
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Let's say, maybe everyone has capacity to be resilient, maybe
they don't always know that, But can you have resilience
without connection?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I don't think so. I look we're social animals, and
we know that solitary confinement is a form of torture.
And whether it's imposed by you know, a political system
or a or a penal system, or it's self imposed.
When we hide from truth and we keep secrets about
(22:07):
our feelings, we're putting ourselves in prisons. We're self imposing
solitary confinement. And we know what happens when you put
someone in solitary confinement. They'll go crazy and they will
self destruct. And I think the only way to get
through anything hard is with others. And it goes right
back to where we started, which is do we have
(22:27):
the skills? And I think most people don't even know
how to help a friend when they're in need. You know,
if somebody calls you and say, if somebody has the
courage to say I'm struggling, most of us go into
fix it mode. And that is incorrect. People are pretty smart,
even in pain. They know when they want to be
fixed and when they want your advice, and they know
(22:50):
when they just need you to sit in the mud
with them. And most of us are more comfortable trying
to fix things because we're rational. We're not the ones depressed.
This is how we would so the problem in our
state of mind now, But that's not the state of
the mind of our friend. And most of us do
not have the skill set to just get in the
mud with somebody. Like if your friend's depressed, do you
(23:10):
try and give them advice how they can get out
of their depression? Or do you'd go to their house,
get in their bed and eat ice cream with them
all day with them and just be depressed with them.
Getting in the mud with someone is not fun, That's
why we don't do it. It is not enjoyable, but
you do it. And again when most of us are
pretty attuned, where if you sit in mud with someone
(23:30):
and just hold space and allow them to be depressed
or sad or angry or whatever feeling they're having, at
some point they're going to look at you and go,
I think I'm ready now, and then you can try
and pull them out and offer them the advice. I
remember I called a friend. I was in a bad place,
and I called her and I said, can I just
talk to him in a bad place? And I started
talking and she went in to fix it mode, and
(23:52):
I remember feeling worse, feeling angry, you know, because I
wasn't feeling heard, and again I literally said, can you
stop trying to fix me and just shut up and listen.
That's all I need from you right now is just
let me get it out of like. I don't want
you to fix me. Just let me tell you and
just listen. That's all I need, and so you can
(24:13):
even change it. And she goes, I hear you, I
hear I'm sorry. I'm sorry, and then she started listening
and I felt better. And so I think we need
to learn those skills. We need to learn those skills.
But I do not believe that you can do these
things by yourself. It's this thing called life is just
too difficult for any one of us to do it
by ourselves. Not a single one of us has the strength,
(24:35):
or the courage, or the wherewithal all the perspective to
do this thing called life alone. Life is a team sport.
This is why we organically and naturally make friends and
want friends. This is why when we don't have friends
we feel lonely. This is why we envy people with relationships.
It's because those things all contribute to this thing called life. Look, remember,
(24:58):
suicide is an active It's an act of loneliness. That's
what it is, you know. It's a it's a it's
a it's a it's an attempt to take control of
a situation that feels bad. Nobody nobody dies by suicide
because they're hungry. They day by suicide because they're lonely.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
There's more ahead with Simon Sinek right after the break.
If this conversation is resonating, we'd love for you to
subscribe to the show and maybe share it with someone
who needs to feel a little less alone today.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Now back to my legacy.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
One of the things that I have to be vulnerable
and transparent that I'm working on, and I see it
more with with parenting, with friends sometimes or even with
my husband, is is because I love so big you,
(25:54):
I want to go in to fix it.
Speaker 6 (25:56):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:56):
So if my daughter comes home and she's having a
she's had or just really bad day, and I want
to say, hey, Okay, if you do ten things of
gratitude right now or go jump on the rebounder, you
can change the state. And and it's not too but
one thing I've and this has been my mantra, is
okay Andrea lecture.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Or love.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
That's good Yolanda, you know it's okay, or to let
her know it's okay, or to let Martin know it's okay,
and just to to listen and you know, just say,
you know, just give them that that love. And I'm
so I'm constantly now playing in my mind lecture a love,
lecture a love. And and then there are times though,
there are times when they they that it's appropriate to
(26:40):
give it. When I say lecture, well, my husband would
say it's a lecture, but yeah, it's like yeah, but
it is like okay, you.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Know, you can imagine, right, is this thing on?
Speaker 5 (26:53):
So so that's that's one thing that I'm that I'm
working so particularly with a teenager and and with a husband.
We work together and with so many people that I love. Particularly,
I think there's so many maybe of our listeners, certainly
the people that are you know, not purchasing your books
and listening to Simon that you know, they are like
the let's get it, let's get it, let's get it done.
Let's you know, so you know, maybe that's something that
(27:16):
we all can that will be helpful to them as well,
like okay, is this time for lecture or love?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It's true and sometimes sometimes you don't have to guess.
Sometimes you can ask. Somebody tells you how they feel,
and you can say, do you want me to lecture?
Do you want me to love? Do you want me
to try and fix it? Do you want me to
just sit here and listen? And people will say I
just need to listen and say, oh, actually, you know what,
I want to know your opinion. So the irony is
you don't even have to guess. Yeah, you can actually ask,
and people know. The funny thing about all of this
(27:44):
is this is what we're trained to do. This is
what parents are trained to do for children. You know,
we're trained we learn to affirm the feelings of our kids.
You know, they come home angry or if something happens
or somebody takes their candy and they say, I'm angry,
and you know, supposed to say, oh, don't be angry,
you shouldn't be angry. We supposed to say, boy, yeah, pooh,
(28:05):
that must really that must really hurt. And this is
what we're supposed to do with kids. Like any parent
whos that read a couple of books you know about parenting,
knows this well, we're supposed to do the same thing
with adults too, like it hasn't changed because we get older,
we still want our feelings affirmed. And it's really funny
how what we know how to do for kids we
(28:25):
stopped doing for adults.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Well, sign of the next time you call me.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Lecture or love, I do love, though, how many of
you know you got three husbands around the table here.
Let's be honest as men own that one for a minute,
particularly men.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Men like to fix exactly, men of worse when it
comes to holding space for feelings one hundred percent tro.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
And my wife and I love my wife, but my
wife will also call me out on that, and she's right.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (28:55):
So in our book we discussed the importance of putting
love in service the center of what we do. What
do you put at the center of your work and
the legacy that you are creating?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Service is very, very high. I believe desperately in service.
In fact, going back your fulfillment question, I think true
fulfillment is the opportunity to serve those who serve others.
And when we are given the opportunity to serve those
or serve others, that is when you will find deep, deep,
deep fulfillment. Every time I speak, I remind myself that
I'm there to give, not to take. You can tell takers, right,
(29:30):
they stand on the stage. The backdrop has their website,
their picture of their book, you know their their handles
for all their social media's their you know their email.
It's like it's a taking mentality. And you can hear
them in their answers. You know, when somebody asks a question,
they say, well, you'll have to you'll have to buy
my book to get that answer. That's a that's a
that's that's a taking mentality, right, And they usually start
(29:53):
by saying all their credentials when they stand up. You know,
I've never done any of those things. I show up
with a giver's heart, which is I'll answer every question.
I'll give everything I can. I don't care the size
of the audience. I don't care if they're senior. I
don't care if they're junior. You get one hundred percent
of what I have to offer, which is a point
of view on how the world could work. And literally
(30:14):
out loud to myself every single time I speak, I
will mutter out loud under my breath just before I
walk out on the stage, you're here to give. It's
a little reminder, because that little reminder will change the
way in which I show up. And so for me,
service is the thing. And I could be brought to
tears when I hear stories of service.
Speaker 5 (30:32):
Is that something that you think did you stumble upon that?
Was it ingrained? Because I'm reminded we spent a delightful afternoon.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
At your house, so it was lovely, it.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
Was, and I absolutely fell in love with your mom
and dad, and you, like your sister, not going to
spend some more one on one day and I love you.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
You have the hierarchy right, and I just can't after
having met your parents, also wondering was it also nurtured
whether intentionally or not in your home or service, and
because they're just incredible individuals.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
That's very kind. Thank you. You know it's not the obvious,
to be honest with you, it's like we weren't like
forced to volunteer on the weekends. You know we, you
know we It wasn't what you would expect, but there,
I think there is an important component. When I was
writing leaders eat Less, I was doing research on parenting
because I want to understand where values came from. And
(31:30):
we assume our values come from our parents, and it
turns out the research shows the opposite, that our values
don't come purely from our parents. They're influenced by our teachers,
by our friends, you know, they come from all over
the place. We're an amalgamation right of which our parents
are a part. But there is one thing universally or
two things universally across every culture that every child learns
(31:54):
from their parents how to treat yourself and know how
to treat others. And both our parents instilled in us
that it doesn't matter if somebody is at the top
of the organization hierarchically or entry level at the organization,
you treat them the same. And they both modeled it
like I remember, you know, when I was a kid,
I'd go to work with my dad, and the way
(32:14):
he would treat, you know, sort of the studio staff
was exactly the same way he would treat the other executives.
And I think that was instilled in us at a
very early age, which everybody's human and you treat everybody
with respect. So that definitely factors in.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
So live in your legacy is about small, intentional steps.
What's one action that you take daily to live out
your purpose.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
I mean, listening is one of the hardest skills we
have to learn. And if you're a little bit tired,
you forget it. If you're a little bit grumpy, you
forget it. If you're a little bit preoccupied with your
own whatever, you forget it. And so I think every
day I try hard to be a better listener. When
somebody asks me something does something around me, I try
(33:00):
hard to be a better listener. I'm a reactor, which
means information comes in unfiltered. There's a reaction, which is
not how I feel. And then thirty seconds later, now
you'll get actually how I feel like something happens to
be like, what don't those idiots know? And that's not
actually how I feel? Give me thirty seconds and be like, well, look,
(33:21):
clearly they're just trying to do something. And so I'm
trying very very hard not to be a reactor and
get to the actually how I feel. But it all
also comes from listening, which is, you know, giving people
the benefit of the doubt and showing grace. So every
day one percent better.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
It's easy to talk about the disconnected to America or
the disconnected world, and it's harder to go across the street,
to our neighbor and to have that extreme listening moment
or that family member who we pull away from, but
perhaps we need to pull towards and just listen. I
love that sometimes you got to sit in the mud.
I love the challenge to that. We all want to help,
all the husbands out here, not in their head on
that one. We all want to help, but we just
(33:57):
have to listen. And sometimes you have to sit in
the mud. And then and only then can that post
traumatic growth happen. And we know that you inspired our listeners,
and so we're very grateful to you, Simon. Thanks for
living your legacy.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Thanks for having me. Thank you, Thank you, Simon, thank
you, you pleasure, thank you my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. If
you enjoyed today's conversation, subscribe, share, and follow us on
at my Legacy Movement on social media and YouTube. New
episodes drop every Tuesday, with bonus content every Thursday. At
its core. This podcast honors doctor King's vision of the
beloved community and the power of connection. Of Legacy Plus
(34:34):
studio production distributed by iHeartMedia creator and executive producer Susanne Hayward,
co executive producer Liza Lyle. Listen on the iHeartRadio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Comparison is the thief of joy. We sit at home
by ourselves, scrolling thinking I hate my life.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Simon Senek's visionary take on purpose made his ted dot
a global phenomenon with over sixty million views.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
So I mean you've impacted all of our lives, and
you've impacted millions of people's lives.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Now one of the most inspiring voices on leadership and purpose,
an author of three New York Times bestsellers, joins us
for his most personal conversation yet.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
My sister was engaged to be married, and two weeks
before her wedding, her fiance was tragically killed right in
front of her.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
He opens up about loss and learning and takes us
inside why we're more lonely than ever and what it
takes to change that.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I think we take friends for granted, you go for
a couple's therapy, but nobody goes for friends therapy when
your friendships are in trouble.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
He shows us what most people get wrong about connecting
in a divided world.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
To allow someone to feel her doesn't mean you have
to agree with.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Him, and if it triggers you join host Martin Luther
King the Third, Andrea Waters King, Mark Kilberger and Craig
Hilberger for an unflingingly honest look at how we build
trust and navigate differences, especially in a culture that thrives
on division.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
If you live in the United States, you have a
needle in your arm and I think, I said, how
can you be so stupid? And she stops in her tracks.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
And say, today we're doing things a little bit differently
on My Legacy Podcast. Earlier this year, we released our
book What Is My Legacy, realizing a new dream of connection, love,
and fulfillment. It redefines legacy not as something that you
leave behind, but something you live every day through your actions, connections,
(01:39):
and the impact you create. In the book, all of
us as hosts share deeply personal stories alongside powerful contributors
from incredible voices like Milinda French Gates, Yara Shihidi, Billy Porter,
Martin Sheen, and Dan Rather. One theme readers loved was
about deepening connection with yourself, others, and the world, So
we wanted to bring in one of the book's contributors
(01:59):
to dive in. Simon Sinek. You know him from his
New York Times best selling books. He's inspired millions with
his ideas on leadership, connection, relationship, and of course purpose.
He is a dear friend of the four of ours.
So Simon, welcome to my Legs and podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
One of the themes from the book is about strengthening
connections with yourself with others the world. I know how
much you adore your.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Niece and a nephew.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
Uh so, but what do you see as the main
obstacle to people finding true connection.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I think there's many things that get in the way
of us forming true connection. One is, uh I think
we take friends for granted. You know, everybody knows you
have to work hard in marriage, like marriage takes work.
Everybody knows that. And when marriages have have trouble, you
(02:55):
get help. You go, you go for therapy, you go
for couples therapy, but nobody for friends therapy when your
friendships are in trouble. I love that. You know, nobody
thinks that friendships take work. We sort of take them
for granted. Like if you guys have a massive fight,
you don't default to divorce. We're in friendships. You have
a massive fight, and people like I don't think I
(03:16):
can do this friendship anymore. We're sort of much more
disposable about friendships for some reason. I don't know why.
Maybe there's no contract. Maybe that's the reason. And if
you ask the best couples, like the couples that we
look at and admire and be like, I want a
marriage like theirs, And if you ask them, what's your secret,
they all say the same thing. It's hard work, and
we do the work. And I don't know anybody in
friendship who says friendship is hard work, and we do
the work. And so I think one of the reasons
(03:38):
we have so much disconnection in the world is we
actually are not very good at the skill of being
a friend. You know, would you cancel on a friend
for a meeting? Would you cancel in a meeting for
a friend? Oh, but my friends would understand. You don't
think the people in the meeting would understand. And that's
the problem. I think we deprioritize friends almost always, quote
(03:58):
unquote because the unders Yes we can blame social media,
it absolutely is a contributing factor. Yes we can blame
post lockdown world, you know, absolutely a factor. But I
think deeper than all of those things is we lack
the skills to be a friend.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
It's interesting because I reflect on this time and this
is the beautiful part of being able to have a
conversation with someone who we spent so much time with.
And there was one of these moving moments when we
were talking as a group and you talked about friends
that politically you very much disagreed with. Oh the story
I'm sharing here. Yeah, yeah, And you had a choice
there because you could have acted not exactly out of
respect and kind of called her out.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I think it was her.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
It was in that moment and you saw how to
build bridges and stuff.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
A friend of mine, she and I see the world
very differently. She's a conspiracy theorist and I view the
world differently. And she came to visit me in New
York and we were going for a long walk and
she said something that I disagreed with politically or worldviewee,
and I thought definitely, And I think I said, how
(05:01):
can you be so stupid? And she stops in her
tracks and says, you just called your friend stupid. And
I realized how judgmental it was to just because I
disagree with someone's worldview that I think they're dumb, Because
on both sides of the political aal both sides think
the other are the sheeple, you know. And so we
were both confronted with the situation of somebody, a friend
(05:24):
who we both care about and love, which is each other.
Now what? And we could have abandoned the friendship. We
could have just said, this is not going to work.
I don't see the world the way you see it.
But we chose instead to figure out how to talk
and how to communicate. And we didn't do what you know,
is usually suggested for Thanksgiving dinners, which is, you know,
just don't bring it up.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
We brought it all up, and we learned how to
listen to each other without judgment, but with curiosity. We
learned how to allow the other person to say what
they needed to say to the point where you could
find something that you did agree with or that was
based on truth, and at the moment of affirmation we
could build upon that. We're actually very open to each
other's points of view. And to this day, I just
(06:07):
talked to her last week. I absolutely adore and love her,
and she feels the same about me. And we talk
about this all the time. We talk about that we're different,
We talk about that our friendship as a model for
how the world could work. And we talk about how
we don't agree on everything and we see the world differently,
but at the end of the day, we share the
same values. At the end of the day, we offer
each other a safe space to be our true selves.
(06:30):
At the end of the day, we found ways to
communicate and put our judgments aside and embrace curiosity. And
because of that friendship, I am a better human being.
And I think people who avoid tension simply because it's difficult,
I don't think they're taking the opportunity to grow as
a person. That doesn't mean that that person has to
be your friend. I'm not suggesting that at all, But
(06:51):
I am suggesting that the challenge to sit in discomfort
with someone where you feel triggered, or you want to
be defensive but you want to fight back, or you
want to be right and you want to prove them wrong,
are not the instincts for any kind of friendship or relationship.
And remember, even beyond the friendships that we have, that
is how you find peace. You cannot make peace with
(07:13):
your friends. You can only make peace.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
With your enemies.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
And so if you can't learn to listen to someone
who you consider an enemy or on the polar opposite
of how you see the world, then peace is non existent.
And when I talk about world peace, I don't I'm
not so foolhardy to believe that we can live in
a world without conflict. That's nonsense, that doesn't exist. When
I talk about world peace, I imagine a world in
which we can resolve all conflict peacefully. You're going to
(07:39):
have conflict, but can you resolve that conflict peacefully? And
change starts at home? We can't criticize our politicians and
our governments for their inability to find peace across an
aisle if we're incapable of having a conversation with somebody
we disagree with.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Because I think for listeners and watchers or those who
are following this, they like everyone's got their friend who
politically they have the different views of or maybe on
you know, faith, politics, whatever it happens to be. That
often pulls us apart. But you found a little bit
of the roadmap how to build.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So the mistake that we make when we talk to
someone with whom we see the world in a diametrically
opposed way is we interrupt, We attempt to correct facts,
We are sometimes triggered by what they say. We get
defensive and we tend to make the argument for our
(08:31):
case before they've even finished making the argument for theirs.
And so one of the challenges. And it is a skill.
It's just a learnable, practicable skill, you know. That's that's
all it is is to allow someone to feel heard. Right,
to allow someone to feel heard doesn't mean you have
(08:52):
to agree with them, doesn't mean you have to see
the world the way they see it. Your only job
is to listen to their story. The story doesn't have
to be true. It's their story, and your job is
to listen to their story. And if it triggers you,
you put that aside and you wait. You'll have your turn.
Don't worry. And remember there's a big difference between listening
(09:14):
and waiting for your turn to speak. Listening is listening
for meaning. Listening is listening to the point where they
feel heard, not that you think you heard the words.
And this is what my friend and I figured out
how to do, which is one of us went first
and said, tell me what you think, and the other
one started talking, and all the other did was tell
(09:36):
me more, go on, that's interesting. I don't understand. Can
you say it differently and just allow them to get
it all out and invariably we will always find something
we agree on always and what at that point one
of us can say that's true or I completely agree.
(09:57):
The other person is now seen, The other person feels
hurt in that moment. The other person now becomes open
to your point of view, even if your point of
view is different, simply because you showed them the respect
to feel heard. The most extreme version of this, and
it's fascinating to watch, is a documentary called White Right
(10:19):
Meeting the Enemy by Dia Khan. Dia is a Muslim
woman who lives in the UK and she made some
comments on the BBC about multicultural society, and some of
her comments went viral in the white supremacist world. She
was trolled so badly by the white supremacists that the
police actually advised her to stay away from open windows.
(10:40):
That's how bad it got. The way that she responded
was to move to the United States and get to
know white supremacists. She sought them out, and she didn't
seek them out to disagree with them, vilify or yell
at them. She sought them out to listen to them.
She tells stories of when she was younger, how she,
as a young girl living in Scandinavia, would go to
(11:00):
counter protests, you know, arians, counter protests white supremacists, and
she would spit on these white supremacists and when they
would she'd leave with her friends high five and they
all felt self righteous that they did good. And at
the end of the day she realized she moved the needle.
The needle zero zero. She just made herself feel good.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
That was it.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
And so she took a very different approach and she
did something that for most of us, just hearing about
it sounds sort of just anathema to what we believe,
which is she offered them a safe space to feel heard. Now,
we will say things like they don't deserve us, but
who's going to go first, because they're definitely not giving
her a safe space to feel heard. So she offered
(11:43):
them a safe space to feel heard. She didn't agree
with them, but she listened, and she showed up with
incredible curiosity, and over the course of time, they started
to view her as a friend, and they started to
trust her, and something strange started happen, which is they
could no longer reconcile their racist views of the world
(12:03):
with the fact that they viewed this Muslim woman as
their friend. And so one by one they started dropping
out of the movement. It's a slower it's a slower
process than what I think we hope, which to scream
and yell and then everything changes, which by the way,
has never ever ever worked. But if she can listen
to a white supremacist, we can listen to each other.
(12:24):
And it's just an extreme version. And I called it
extreme listening of what allowing someone to empty their bucket
looks like. It takes practice. It takes a lot of practice.
And go far away from white supremacists, go far away
from political adversaries, and go back home. Go back to
(12:47):
your relationships with your spouse, with your friends, with your siblings,
where we disagree all the time, where we defend ourselves,
where somebody brings emotions and we respond with facts, like
six times you did this to me last week. I'm like, well,
I only did it four times, it doesn't matter how
many times. Well, if you want to have a fight
with me, get your facts right. No, don't do that.
(13:08):
That doesn't work. And so I think these skills, the
skill of active listening, though invaluable in the creation of peace,
is I think an absolute essential on a daily basis
for functional relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I love that coming up Simon gets personal and shares
what it was like walking alongside his sister through unimaginable
tragedy and how that moment changed the way he shows
up for everyone he loves. Don't forget to share this
with anyone learning how to show up and with those
who already do.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Now back to my legacy.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
Obviously, you've inspired millions about finding their why. I have
a very dear friend speaking of friends, and she always,
you know, tells me her name is Julie Andrea. You
know what is your why? If I'm getting ready to
do a speech, I am so turned on when I
feel inspired, filled with spirit and being able to share
(14:04):
that so like no, that's my why. Another one of
my wives is the Beloved Community, which you know, people
think it's a place of utopia. It's not. It truly
is just a society at peace with itself, and we
start that piece of being at peace with yourself. I
am curious for someone struggling to align their daily habits
(14:27):
with their long term purpose. What would be your advice to.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Them, well, Number one, I think the concept of long
term purpose or an infinite purpose, that it starts there.
I think most people confuse long term in years versus lifelong.
You know, if you ask some people their long term purpose,
you know, you hear things like, you know, to become
(14:51):
a mom, you know, to get a million dollars, you know,
to become a CEO, to start a business. Those are
goals achievable. May not be easy, and you may fail,
but eminently achievable. True purpose lives beyond our lifetime, and
you don't feel like you're in a game where there's
(15:13):
a beginning, middle, and end, but you feel like you're
a part of a continuum. You know. One of the
things the US Marine Corps does is they instill the
history of the Marine Corps in their marines. They have
to learn the dates of important battles, they have to
learn the names of their heroes, they have to learn
the failures and the losses. And the reason they do
this is because they want the marines to understand that
(15:34):
their job doesn't start today, it was started many many
years before them, and they cannot let the sacrifices of
those who came before them go in vain. They have
a responsibility to uphold and protect the sacrifices of the
marines who preceded them and prepare the world for those
that will follow them. And there's data that shows that
(15:55):
when you see yourself not at the beginning, but in
the middle as responsible for came before and responsible for
what comes after, you actually make better decisions. You know,
they've showed this with kids. Kids who know some about
their own family history as little as like knowing the
history of their grandparents, will actually make better decisions because
they don't see the world as starting with them. They
(16:16):
are given responsibility to protect something. So I think when
you have long term vision, you don't see it as
a story. It's not your story. It's a story that
you're a part of. And the other thing that I
think I learned this lesson the hard way, and I
think some people struggle with this lesson at every age
(16:37):
is to ask for help. I think we fear asking
for help, We fear admitting we don't know. We believe
falsely that it undermines our credibility or that we're not
worthier action able to do the things that we talk
about doing. If we say I don't know, nothing could
be further from the truth, And turns out when I
(16:57):
learned the hard way, because I got back and beaten
before you know, I had to ask for help because
I couldn't do it myself. I was surrounded by people
who wanted to help me, but they never offered because
they didn't think I needed it because I was lying, hiding,
and faking every day. And it turns out the minute
I said I don't know, my credibility went up because
(17:18):
everybody knows you don't know everything, so if you admit it,
they think you're more trustworthy. So I think when you
have a vision of what you'd like to be a
part of, which is different of what I'd like to achieve.
If you have a vision of what you'd like to
be a part of, start saying to people, this is
what I believe, and I don't know how to do it.
(17:39):
This is what I believe, and I need help. This
is what I believe, and I don't even know where
to start. Because what ends up happening is people who
believe what you believe will show up. People who believe
what you believe will start introducing you to people who
share that same vision and the solutions become pretty self
evident pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
You do show up for people, and that's something that
we love about you. But you also showed up for
your sister Sarah at a really important time, and we
were wondering if you could potentially share that when she
unfortunately lost her fiance near the wedding date and you
were there at a really critical juncture for her, and
you talk to us about that.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
That is true. My sister was engaged to be married
many years ago, and two weeks before her wedding, her
fiance was tragically killed right in front of her. And
it was awful, and it was on the front page
of all the newspapers the next day in New York
because it was so awful, and uh, you know, families
(18:42):
do what families do, which is they you got your
kick into gear, and in this horrible tragedy, it does
actually make you closer. But the courage was not mine.
In the courage was hers. I kind of imagine what
it felt like. I could only hold space for the feelings.
(19:09):
And she's the most remarkable person I know, because she
proved that you can move forwards from anything.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
She still has a picture of her fiance in her
in her house, and she has a husband and she's
got two magical kids and she's happily married and great
mom and like, no matter what tragedies we face, like
you can get through it. You can't get through it alone.
You cannot get through it alone, but you can't get
(19:39):
through it. And you know, it's such an extreme example
of making it through something. You know, we talk a
lot about post traumatic stress, we very rarely talk about
postramatic growth. And tragedy can can destroy you, but tragedy
can can help you be a even greater version that
(20:03):
you could have been without it. And I think the
difference is the support structure. I think the difference is
entirely the support structure, but the courage is hers. And
you know, no matter what happens in my life that
sets me back on my back foot, you know, it
pales in comparison to what she had to get through.
But no, no, she deserves all the credit.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
I love the post dramatic growth concept. I've never quite
heard it that way. It's extremely powerful. I think for
me and our listeners that's a very tangible takeaway.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And it's a real thing. I mean, it is written
about it's not my concept. It is a thing, and
there are people that thrive after stragedy. Doesn't mean it
doesn't hurt, doesn't mean they don't carry baggage. It doesn't
mean that there isn't pain. It doesn't mean that if
they think about it, it won't bring them to tears. It'll
do all those things. It doesn't mean we ignore it
(20:54):
or block it out, and it doesn't mean we suppress.
But the way she puts it is, you know, she
spent many years high from it, and then she just
realized it's just part of my story. Like if I
tell my story, it's part of my story, and I
guess it's part of mine too.
Speaker 6 (21:09):
Someone how has her strength inspired the way you think
about resilience and connection.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
She and I have a pretty amazing relationship and when
we talk a thousand times a day. I live in
Los Angeles to be near them, to be near that family. Yeah,
I mean, she's a constant inspiration to me. She's the
most remarkable person you'll ever meet.
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Let's say, maybe everyone has capacity to be resilient, maybe
they don't always know that, But can you have resilience
without connection?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I don't think so. I look we're social animals, and
we know that solitary confinement is a form of torture.
And whether it's imposed by you know, a political system
or a or a penal system, or it's self imposed.
When we hide from truth and we keep secrets about
(22:07):
our feelings, we're putting ourselves in prisons. We're self imposing
solitary confinement. And we know what happens when you put
someone in solitary confinement. They'll go crazy and they will
self destruct. And I think the only way to get
through anything hard is with others. And it goes right
back to where we started, which is do we have
(22:27):
the skills? And I think most people don't even know
how to help a friend when they're in need. You know,
if somebody calls you and say, if somebody has the
courage to say I'm struggling, most of us go into
fix it mode. And that is incorrect. People are pretty smart,
even in pain. They know when they want to be
fixed and when they want your advice, and they know
(22:50):
when they just need you to sit in the mud
with them. And most of us are more comfortable trying
to fix things because we're rational. We're not the ones depressed.
This is how we would so the problem in our
state of mind now, But that's not the state of
the mind of our friend. And most of us do
not have the skill set to just get in the
mud with somebody. Like if your friend's depressed, do you
(23:10):
try and give them advice how they can get out
of their depression? Or do you'd go to their house,
get in their bed and eat ice cream with them
all day with them and just be depressed with them.
Getting in the mud with someone is not fun, That's
why we don't do it. It is not enjoyable, but
you do it. And again when most of us are
pretty attuned, where if you sit in mud with someone
(23:30):
and just hold space and allow them to be depressed
or sad or angry or whatever feeling they're having, at
some point they're going to look at you and go,
I think I'm ready now, and then you can try
and pull them out and offer them the advice. I
remember I called a friend. I was in a bad place,
and I called her and I said, can I just
talk to him in a bad place? And I started
talking and she went in to fix it mode, and
(23:52):
I remember feeling worse, feeling angry, you know, because I
wasn't feeling heard, and again I literally said, can you
stop trying to fix me and just shut up and listen.
That's all I need from you right now is just
let me get it out of like. I don't want
you to fix me. Just let me tell you and
just listen. That's all I need, and so you can
(24:13):
even change it. And she goes, I hear you, I
hear I'm sorry. I'm sorry, and then she started listening
and I felt better. And so I think we need
to learn those skills. We need to learn those skills.
But I do not believe that you can do these
things by yourself. It's this thing called life is just
too difficult for any one of us to do it
by ourselves. Not a single one of us has the strength,
(24:35):
or the courage, or the wherewithal all the perspective to
do this thing called life alone. Life is a team sport.
This is why we organically and naturally make friends and
want friends. This is why when we don't have friends
we feel lonely. This is why we envy people with relationships.
It's because those things all contribute to this thing called life. Look, remember,
(24:58):
suicide is an active It's an act of loneliness. That's
what it is, you know. It's a it's a it's
a it's a it's an attempt to take control of
a situation that feels bad. Nobody nobody dies by suicide
because they're hungry. They day by suicide because they're lonely.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
There's more ahead with Simon Sinek right after the break.
If this conversation is resonating, we'd love for you to
subscribe to the show and maybe share it with someone
who needs to feel a little less alone today.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Now back to my legacy.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
One of the things that I have to be vulnerable
and transparent that I'm working on, and I see it
more with with parenting, with friends sometimes or even with
my husband, is is because I love so big you,
(25:54):
I want to go in to fix it.
Speaker 6 (25:56):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:56):
So if my daughter comes home and she's having a
she's had or just really bad day, and I want
to say, hey, Okay, if you do ten things of
gratitude right now or go jump on the rebounder, you
can change the state. And and it's not too but
one thing I've and this has been my mantra, is
okay Andrea lecture.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Or love.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
That's good Yolanda, you know it's okay, or to let
her know it's okay, or to let Martin know it's okay,
and just to to listen and you know, just say,
you know, just give them that that love. And I'm
so I'm constantly now playing in my mind lecture a love,
lecture a love. And and then there are times though,
there are times when they they that it's appropriate to
(26:40):
give it. When I say lecture, well, my husband would
say it's a lecture, but yeah, it's like yeah, but
it is like okay, you.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Know, you can imagine, right, is this thing on?
Speaker 5 (26:53):
So so that's that's one thing that I'm that I'm
working so particularly with a teenager and and with a husband.
We work together and with so many people that I love. Particularly,
I think there's so many maybe of our listeners, certainly
the people that are you know, not purchasing your books
and listening to Simon that you know, they are like
the let's get it, let's get it, let's get it done.
Let's you know, so you know, maybe that's something that
(27:16):
we all can that will be helpful to them as well,
like okay, is this time for lecture or love?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It's true and sometimes sometimes you don't have to guess.
Sometimes you can ask. Somebody tells you how they feel,
and you can say, do you want me to lecture?
Do you want me to love? Do you want me
to try and fix it? Do you want me to
just sit here and listen? And people will say I
just need to listen and say, oh, actually, you know what,
I want to know your opinion. So the irony is
you don't even have to guess. Yeah, you can actually ask,
and people know. The funny thing about all of this
(27:44):
is this is what we're trained to do. This is
what parents are trained to do for children. You know,
we're trained we learn to affirm the feelings of our kids.
You know, they come home angry or if something happens
or somebody takes their candy and they say, I'm angry,
and you know, supposed to say, oh, don't be angry,
you shouldn't be angry. We supposed to say, boy, yeah, pooh,
(28:05):
that must really that must really hurt. And this is
what we're supposed to do with kids. Like any parent
whos that read a couple of books you know about parenting,
knows this well, we're supposed to do the same thing
with adults too, like it hasn't changed because we get older,
we still want our feelings affirmed. And it's really funny
how what we know how to do for kids we
(28:25):
stopped doing for adults.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Well, sign of the next time you call me.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Lecture or love, I do love, though, how many of
you know you got three husbands around the table here.
Let's be honest as men own that one for a minute,
particularly men.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Men like to fix exactly, men of worse when it
comes to holding space for feelings one hundred percent tro.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
And my wife and I love my wife, but my
wife will also call me out on that, and she's right.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (28:55):
So in our book we discussed the importance of putting
love in service the center of what we do. What
do you put at the center of your work and
the legacy that you are creating?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Service is very, very high. I believe desperately in service.
In fact, going back your fulfillment question, I think true
fulfillment is the opportunity to serve those who serve others.
And when we are given the opportunity to serve those
or serve others, that is when you will find deep, deep,
deep fulfillment. Every time I speak, I remind myself that
I'm there to give, not to take. You can tell takers, right,
(29:30):
they stand on the stage. The backdrop has their website,
their picture of their book, you know their their handles
for all their social media's their you know their email.
It's like it's a taking mentality. And you can hear
them in their answers. You know, when somebody asks a question,
they say, well, you'll have to you'll have to buy
my book to get that answer. That's a that's a
that's that's a taking mentality, right, And they usually start
(29:53):
by saying all their credentials when they stand up. You know,
I've never done any of those things. I show up
with a giver's heart, which is I'll answer every question.
I'll give everything I can. I don't care the size
of the audience. I don't care if they're senior. I
don't care if they're junior. You get one hundred percent
of what I have to offer, which is a point
of view on how the world could work. And literally
(30:14):
out loud to myself every single time I speak, I
will mutter out loud under my breath just before I
walk out on the stage, you're here to give. It's
a little reminder, because that little reminder will change the
way in which I show up. And so for me,
service is the thing. And I could be brought to
tears when I hear stories of service.
Speaker 5 (30:32):
Is that something that you think did you stumble upon that?
Was it ingrained? Because I'm reminded we spent a delightful afternoon.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
At your house, so it was lovely, it.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
Was, and I absolutely fell in love with your mom
and dad, and you, like your sister, not going to
spend some more one on one day and I love you.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
You have the hierarchy right, and I just can't after
having met your parents, also wondering was it also nurtured
whether intentionally or not in your home or service, and
because they're just incredible individuals.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
That's very kind. Thank you. You know it's not the obvious,
to be honest with you, it's like we weren't like
forced to volunteer on the weekends. You know we, you
know we It wasn't what you would expect, but there,
I think there is an important component. When I was
writing leaders eat Less, I was doing research on parenting
because I want to understand where values came from. And
(31:30):
we assume our values come from our parents, and it
turns out the research shows the opposite, that our values
don't come purely from our parents. They're influenced by our teachers,
by our friends, you know, they come from all over
the place. We're an amalgamation right of which our parents
are a part. But there is one thing universally or
two things universally across every culture that every child learns
(31:54):
from their parents how to treat yourself and know how
to treat others. And both our parents instilled in us
that it doesn't matter if somebody is at the top
of the organization hierarchically or entry level at the organization,
you treat them the same. And they both modeled it
like I remember, you know, when I was a kid,
I'd go to work with my dad, and the way
(32:14):
he would treat, you know, sort of the studio staff
was exactly the same way he would treat the other executives.
And I think that was instilled in us at a
very early age, which everybody's human and you treat everybody
with respect. So that definitely factors in.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
So live in your legacy is about small, intentional steps.
What's one action that you take daily to live out
your purpose.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
I mean, listening is one of the hardest skills we
have to learn. And if you're a little bit tired,
you forget it. If you're a little bit grumpy, you
forget it. If you're a little bit preoccupied with your
own whatever, you forget it. And so I think every
day I try hard to be a better listener. When
somebody asks me something does something around me, I try
(33:00):
hard to be a better listener. I'm a reactor, which
means information comes in unfiltered. There's a reaction, which is
not how I feel. And then thirty seconds later, now
you'll get actually how I feel like something happens to
be like, what don't those idiots know? And that's not
actually how I feel? Give me thirty seconds and be like, well, look,
(33:21):
clearly they're just trying to do something. And so I'm
trying very very hard not to be a reactor and
get to the actually how I feel. But it all
also comes from listening, which is, you know, giving people
the benefit of the doubt and showing grace. So every
day one percent better.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
It's easy to talk about the disconnected to America or
the disconnected world, and it's harder to go across the street,
to our neighbor and to have that extreme listening moment
or that family member who we pull away from, but
perhaps we need to pull towards and just listen. I
love that sometimes you got to sit in the mud.
I love the challenge to that. We all want to help,
all the husbands out here, not in their head on
that one. We all want to help, but we just
(33:57):
have to listen. And sometimes you have to sit in
the mud. And then and only then can that post
traumatic growth happen. And we know that you inspired our listeners,
and so we're very grateful to you, Simon. Thanks for
living your legacy.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Thanks for having me. Thank you, Thank you, Simon, thank
you, you pleasure, thank you my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. If
you enjoyed today's conversation, subscribe, share, and follow us on
at my Legacy Movement on social media and YouTube. New
episodes drop every Tuesday, with bonus content every Thursday. At
its core. This podcast honors doctor King's vision of the
beloved community and the power of connection. Of Legacy Plus
(34:34):
studio production distributed by iHeartMedia creator and executive producer Susanne Hayward,
co executive producer Liza Lyle. Listen on the iHeartRadio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Craig Kielburger
Marc Kielburger
Martin Luther King III
Arndrea Waters King
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!