February 1, 2022 • 47 mins
Was J. Edgar Hoover Black? Langston and his guest Jordan Carlos (First Wives Club on BET+) interrogate this wildly speculated conspiracy theory.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Do you know what the J stands for? I've always
been it feels like it's got to be like Jeremond
Judas Judas. Is that really what it is? Because that's no.
I don't, I don't. I have no idea what it is.
I've no idea. I guess it's John or something like that. Chuckaboo,
that's what it is. How was your Majesty Edgar Hoover? John?
(00:29):
John would be told, passes n your majesty, your main son,
Edgar Hoover, chips, yours mans, racist astost money, martial stuff.
(00:58):
I can't tell me. Yep, yep, yep. There it is.
There it is. Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another phenomenal
episode of My Mama Told Me, the podcast where we
died deep, deep into the pockets of black conspiracy theories
and we finally worked to prove that Boris ko Joe
(01:19):
is the ugliest name for the most handsome man to
ever walk this planet. His parents knew that they had to.
They had to. Even amount they had, they couldn't messle
around and give this man a name the something beautiful
like meadow lark. You know what I mean. You gotta
give someone that pretty a name that is also beautiful.
(01:40):
You give them something beautiful, it's basically gonna cause like
a wormhole to open up and we're all gonna get
sucked into the pits of hell. It's not possible. So
thank you Mr and Mrs ko Joe for making the
sacrifice that none of us were brave enough to make.
This is the theory I'm spreading this week. It's pretty
much true. I think it's the most true thing I've
ever said anywhere. Always, I think, yeah, that makes sense.
(02:04):
I'm your host, Thankstein Kern, and I'm rambling weird today.
That's that's the energy I'm hitting you with. I don't know.
Talking's hard, and Buddy, I shouldn't have a podcast, but
I do. You know who is a good talker who
doesn't ramble? Funny? And and probably he is. He's got
all the words. He's a man who's well versed in
(02:26):
words and in both funny and otherwise. He's he's so funny.
I've known him. I know him for a while. He's
a hilarious dude based out of New York, and he
has so much cool ship going on. He hasn't amazing.
He's on a show called Everything's trash on Freeform that's
coming out, and he has an amazing show on AMC
called can we talk about this? So funny? You guys
are gonna love him. Please get it up for my guests.
(02:46):
Mr Jordan's Carlos thank you. Yeah, all right, Helen. I
feel like I'm answering anything. The band thanks us, love
your roots. That other guy that's poor roots just this.
(03:09):
We only know two of them. And I said, yeah,
I always feel bad when people come out and they're like,
we love the roots, you know, with Quest Love and
uh Black Thought and the Brest. You can stop there.
You're stopping, yo, Man, that's been a minute. I'm proud
of all that you've done. I'm not happy for you
(03:29):
man doing it black Man successful. The feeling is mutual.
I'm so happy you're here. You've been hysterical for a
long time and you came to us with what I
think is a very hysterical conspiracy theory. It is it
is one that is it hysterical, hysterical license or it's
really funny, too serious, dead as supers that one of
(03:55):
our only you know what I'm saying. It's haunting if true,
but it has it cannot not be funny. You said,
my mama told me Jack Hoover was black. Around my house,
we call him Jay Hoover, J who a little rock side,
(04:20):
But it don't mean the same thing. Jay Hoover. Hoover
was definitely whover, definitely had a thing against black folks.
We know that all of the Lucas brothers do this
in the black masside. We thank him for that. But
I'm a Black History Month quiz Bowl champion. I knew that.
I knew that J. J. Hoover was was dirty to
(04:41):
begin with, and gully and and and just gross disgusting.
But on I mean like he just couldn't sleep at
night thinking that black people were happy he was that
he was that guy. No, he he had a very
h sick vendetta against against a few groups. I don't
(05:04):
want to make it so that black people are are
the only ones that he was targeting, because I think
it's important that the acknowledge he hated a lot of folds.
But boy, but boy, did he have a special taste
in his mouth. He really wanted nigga blood, and UH
worked real hard to get it exactly. But the thing
(05:25):
about it was, I mean, yes, a special taste for
it because it ran through his veins. Yes, and so okay,
hold on, wait a minute, I'm there to listen. Don't
let me ramble. Yeah, no, please please, I have so
many questions. Please go ahead, man, tell me for you
(05:47):
where where you first became aware of j Edgar Hoover
and his alleged black history. Just looking at this he
looked like some of the deacons of the deacon board.
I was like, oh, okay, he got Indian his family,
(06:07):
you know, like, just looking at him, he's got the
ponce nez. We all got that one cousin who's got
the ponce nez, you know what I'm saying. And so
looking at him, the slick back hair, his skin, he
was always dark, right, he was always dark. And I
was like, let me, let me look it up. So
I said, google ja grew who were young. He looked
(06:31):
like my dad, you know what I'm saying, or at
least my grandfather. I mean, when you look at other
people that chose like he was. Okay. So the author
Gore Vidal. Gorvidal wrote books like Aaron Burr really great
author and uh public public intellect, things like that. In
the nineteen six season early nineteen seventy. So gore Vidal
(06:53):
grew up with Ja grew who Jo and he's in
d C. And he said, Gorvidal would embellishment. He's not
one to lie. And he said that everybody knew that
the Hoovers passed for white. Yes, everybody knew it. Everybody
knew it, and that grew up in d C. But
it's just like that was just like a rumor out there,
(07:13):
you know what I mean, it was hard to make
the accusation because of the power of j Edgar Hoover. Yeah,
it's it's so funny because I I love that you
brought up the the pictures, right that so many of
his pictures he sort of like looks oddly like a
a light skinned black person. And one of the things
that I felt in looking at a lot of his
(07:35):
pictures is how much he benefited from like the black
and white era of photographs, right that, Like, it has
to be intentional that we're not seeing color pictures of
this dude, because he's gonna be noticeably darker than all
of these other people he's like bossing around at these
FBI tables, you know what I mean. Colored pictures of
(07:57):
this colored man, you're absolutely right now, you know, that
was my first that was my first inkling. I was like,
Corvidal knew that about him, and then there's that kind
of to me. I took that. I ran with it.
I was like, I know what it is to be
like to get over one's own internalized racism. Hm, you
know say I mean Jay gerber hooever never did. He
(08:18):
ated himself on a lot of levels. He was never
living his truth right, So he was closet and gay, right,
and so like he took it out of gaze and
so he took it out on blacks and like all
the people that he had a beef with, that was
who he was. So that makes me know that like
all the more that that's that's what he was about. Man,
you know what I'm saying. So there's there's also no
(08:39):
schools named after Jehovah. There's none named after him, which
tells me definitely black man, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, Yeah,
it's so funny because part of the reason I imagine
that people aren't necessarily like eager to put his name
on things is despite the fact that he obviously was
a dick head, the black people dickheads probably too light
(09:02):
of a word he was. He was and a silly
billy too to the blacks in the days. But on
top of that, he he was kind of known as
a as an asshole to everybody else. Like it wasn't
as if like everybody was like, yo, you know what
funk with is j Edgar Hoover. You know who are
(09:23):
really just like hanging out with is that motherfucker j
Edgar Hoover. He tells great jokes, I know. I mean
he got rid of like people like John Dillinger, you
know what I'm saying, gangsters, the public enemies of the
nineteen twenties and thirties, And it's like, you know what,
they were fun fucking fun, and you know what, it
was white and black want to see him go away,
but we didn't have the power at the time, you know.
(09:44):
I mean, it's it's not like John Dillinger like lining
up with black folks to make Cooper go away, you know.
But but you know it's there were many people in
the race to that that that that did not like him.
But there were many people in his cross hairs. And
the thing about it was, I think it just came
(10:05):
from his own lies about himself and the bs about himself.
And he had a particular thing for Marcus Garvey and
the black show. Right, so he went to a point
like he made a name for himself in about nineteen
Come with me now you see me just pumped the
glasses right there. You know you know what that is.
(10:25):
You know what that is. We're gonna go into deep,
big facts, big facts, going into the big facts. Now,
Young j H was like, Okay, I'm here in d C.
Is gonna be some got the yak. There's gonna be
some black black history real quick. He's trying to make
a name for himself. No problem, He's gonna make a
name for himself in d C. And and I think
(10:48):
he was working at the time for you know, there
wasn't like a the FBI wasn't a thing yet, right,
so that was not a thing, right, So, but he
was working in that version of what the historic from
that so so basically he had to make a name.
And so Marcus Garvey had kind of been on the
raidar of the government because he had the audacity, the
(11:08):
audacity to ship to ship black people from one place
to the other, or black owned made products from one
place to the other. It was like he was like,
what if we go back to where we come from?
And white people were like, wait, adamn, We're gonna have
to create a branch of the government to deal with
(11:29):
this motherfucker because that is not okay. He was an unwieldy,
unruly negro. I mean, Gary Cheft Garvey. I always loved
that one. Like he's just like he's in the back
of that car just looking. He was like a rap video,
you know what I'm saying. He's got like this uniform on.
(11:49):
Never went war, never went to war, but he's got
like a general's hat on, and he knew what he
was like, you know what he's doing. You know he's
so he's stirring them white soup. He's stirring them white
I'm sure some of them like, do we have to
call it black start? He's not a star to me.
So white people got you know, they got shook, the
(12:10):
fragility of it all and so so so then Hoover
was like, I mean, man, right, he went so far.
So he had I remember the first agent that he
employed because he couldn't go himself right totally? Could he could?
He totally could you've seen Dr Daniel Hall Williams. You've
seen Dr Charles Drew. I remember black his dry mother
(12:32):
to be like Dr Charles Drew Black History Month icon.
I'm like him, are you sure, doctors we can pull
showing up the same way. Dr Janiel will is wider
than Vermont dude. But like, you know, it's like so anyway,
(12:56):
he employed this one black man who's by the way,
his name was his middle name was Worm. Yeah, yeah,
I don't know about Worm. Tell me more about this
Worm character. Nobody came to his funeral. Fun that guy
so so he was so this Worm guy basically was
the first kind of like black FBI agent. He infiltrated
(13:20):
Garves operation and got them to you know, like basically
planted the seeds of mistrust within the organization and then
went so far like so Hoover had him even do
things like sabotage, like throwing pieces like a junk and
metal into into the gas tanks of the Black Star
Line ships. They wanted this nigga to fail. I mean,
(13:43):
that's not even Usually it's like observe and reports, right,
that's that's like what the government's job is to do.
But they're like like Hoover was like, that's not enough.
You're supposed to really use like time travel rules as
as the government, you know what I mean, Like you
you look at it, but you don't funk with it.
And instead he was like, no, I'm gonna touch that almanac.
(14:05):
I'm gonna I'm gonna see what what I can build
from from burning down everything that this dude is trying
to build. Absolutely so he basically got garfy deported back
to Jamaica, ruined his ruined him and was able to
like use those closest to him to uh sabotage And
(14:26):
that's what made a name. That's the made a name
for Jahoover, right I mean? And then he like, look,
you take the values of your take on the values
of your oppressor to hope for better treatment. You know
what I'm saying, Well, that's what I was gonna ask you,
is is And I'm just curious to hear your thoughts
because you're clearly very well versed in your boy j Hoover.
(14:49):
Is how much of his behavior do you think was
like ingrained in him from the beginning that like, as
a family they just decide did we don't like niggas
and we're gonna do everything we can to be mean
to them even though we are them. Or was this like,
oh you got some affirmation you gotta pat on your
(15:10):
head from like how hard you went at Garvy and
so now that's gonna be like your signature move, do
you know what I mean? Most people that like because
j Graver was never elected anything, he was a political
animal in d C. So he understood how to work things.
He understood like it's not about who knows you, it's
(15:32):
it's you know who you know or whatever it is
the leaders of power. He understood how to work that.
He knew the game was not a game. But I
feel like what probably started with, like it can't just
be one thing, you know, I'm saying, there's a lot
in that in that gumbo. It's like he probably definitely
passed or didn't pass the doll test, you know when
(15:54):
they give you the bad black doll and like so like, yeah,
you know it, I don't know that's I mean, are
you don't know that test? I don't think so. Bro,
you got a daughter, right, yeah, you need to be
putting some black dolls in that crib immediately. Oh, she
can't use their fingers yet, so it doesn't matter by
(16:14):
the time. By the time they are three, the messages
have already they've already got the messages that black is bad.
So it's like a test where they present a white
doll and a black doll and then they're like, which
doll is a bad one? And then usually the person
administering the test is like, right, this one's names pretty naughty, Hoggins,
(16:37):
what did you say something? Did you say something crash SHANIQUEA.
This doll's cursing, Maybe don't pick that one. But the
worst part of the dolls test is that the kids
make the connection. They're like, okay, so the black children
take the tests, they're like this black doll is is bad.
And then they're like, so, do you mean you're bad?
(17:00):
And then because you're black, and they're like, yeah, I'm bad.
So it's like by the yeah, man, So it's like,
I think he didn't pass the doll test and we've
been paying for it ever since. So it was like
and he had this thing about like black people that
were living their best lives he could not stand so
like Dr King, remember he like he was like Dr
(17:23):
King because I mean, listen, Martin Luther the King right
is a god and a great man. But yes he was.
He was loose with the dick and that's you know,
we know that. You know, we know that Jay Whover
used that against him, you know, and I was like,
that's why he was like king, You're yeah. It's one
(17:46):
of the things that probably is going to be helpful
for people to put this in context is that Jack
or Hoover worked as sort of like the head of
the quote unquote FBI then becoming the FBI for forty
seven years, so he spanned he spanned some black men's lifetime,
uh to fucking torment people, which meant that like he
(18:09):
really got his hands and a lot of ship there.
It wasn't just like, oh he had a couple of
big hits. He really was a part of of sort
of like the threat for so many generations of black
and brown people. Absolutely, so, I mean what he did
was like he just had a special I mean, let's
say he had a heart on you know what I'm saying.
(18:30):
He had a heart on floor. Any black lead on
the come up, and he took them all out, even
Sam Cook, like Sam like even took out Sam Cook
so so by like he's kind of the reason why
there's a certain disenchantment or like a certain piece missing
for I think Black people when it comes to like leadership,
(18:52):
were just like they killed a lot of leaders, you know,
they did it all in like five the tenure span,
and with that, it's just like a giant whole was
left and Jack Hooper's stupid head is in the middle
of that hole. So it's like, yeah, I feel like
he was just like grinning, like, yeah, I didn't. I
do think it makes me think that that so much
(19:13):
work could be done. Granted they've they've done horrific things
for generations, even past Jigor Hoover, but so much work
could be done if the FBI even just took the
time to denounce some of the actions that he took
during the time that he was sort of like their
quote unquote leader. That like if they just came up
(19:34):
and we're like, yo, no, lie, he was bugging are
bad on that one? That wasn't exactly how we run things.
But instead they go, Nope, great man, flawless figure, nothing
to talk about, and we move forward. And it's like,
oh no, man, you can't write these like every year
the fucking the Twitter for the FBI is like, we
(19:54):
missed you, Martin Luther King, and it's like you don't
get to do that because you know you won't. You
won't can say what what actually happened? Well, of course
they miss him. They used to bug his hotels and
just like they love I mean, listen, the day King died,
he sent Coretta like this insane tape with all like
(20:17):
just like like bedroom noises of King whatever, like that's
what that's how that nigga said. And then right and
then before that, he said in a letter to King
saying he should kill himself that like obviously Coretta read
you know what I'm saying. Like he was just like
(20:37):
I was like, what, don't you have anything else to do? Man?
Are there any other crises in the Country's like no,
the Negro, the Negro, like the black Messiah will come
and just like he'll take us, Hoba. We're only one
in ten of the people in the United States. But
what huh you know for him to be sitting there,
(20:57):
He's like, damn, Martin, I hope this let him finds you. Well,
maybe you should kill yourself. I don't know. Yeah, have
you ever thought about it? It says. It starts King.
It's like King, you are an animal saving your breakfast.
(21:18):
You're like Jesus Christ. I would even say again, I
have I think I have a sixth sense of humor.
There is a fun there's a part of me that
has so much fun with antiquated racism. Like that people
felt comfortable saying at a certain point that we've now
like socialized out that they probably so actively believe. But
(21:41):
like you, you don't say it, like calling somebody an
animal is so fucking funny of being like you, you animal,
You fucking animals, you fucking savages. And I love it
so much. And for those reasons, I know he wasn't.
I don't know why. And if you do all the
(22:05):
man you can clearly say, I mean, okay, that's those
are some trap moves. Though. That's some trap nigger ship.
When you're telling somebody to kill themselves in a battle, Yeah,
that's some that's some nigorous ship. He behaved in a
way that was too passionate for him not to have
personal steaks in this fight. Absolutely that it can't be
(22:27):
just you acting completely for your job. Nobody cares that
much about protecting the produce at target. Do you know
what I mean? Like you're doing a thing that has
to be personal for you. And so yeah, it was
also above and beyond. This is how I knew he
was not white, right, So like he when he and
(22:49):
like he had this thing was like in the nineteen
thirties excuse my nineteen thirties impression voice, where he's like, hey,
junior g man, today they're gonna be a man man.
He was like, he was like, we get we get
the best in the brightest, Why the tallest, you know,
the fattest, the tallest, the best, like and they all
it was just over six ft tall. You had to
(23:09):
be white, over six ft tall, and and have like
a high school grad like a high school degree. But
they all look like male models. So I was like,
this guy is just doing rose ceremonies. Yeah, he just
wants he wants boys to look at you know, he's
just collecting buff boys to be his his special team
of buff boys. That which is fine, Which is fine
(23:32):
as long as you're honest about what you're doing. He wasn't,
you know, Like yeah, so like you just saying you
just saying I'm collecting buff boys. I enjoy buff boys
and also, if you enjoy killing black leaders, you and
you can be a part of that and they'll be like, yeah,
it's it's not like people are gonna be like what
the funk. They'll be like, yeah, that sounds pretty cool
(23:54):
to me. I'll be a buff boy, yo, man, I'm
gonna tell you something. I actually got to interview a
guy that worked side by side of Jacker Hoover, whoa
yeah yeah yeah. So like I was like, was he
ever late? And he was like, that's strange. He was
five to ten minutes late sometimes at work. Was see
(24:15):
black already thought that that was gonna go somewhere like
super insightful and indeed, nope, black black. He was like, no,
Hoover was very good to his black employees. He shook
(24:37):
his hand, the hand of his driver, and it's made.
And I was like, my man, my man, my man.
Ah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't know what good is.
And that's that's the different thing that we got to
work out. Yeah, but I'm convinced, bro, I'm convinced. I'm
just saying I can't be all right, Well, this is
this is some heavy ship. You've got some girl insight.
(24:59):
We're gonna say a break. We'll be back with more,
Jordan Carlos and more. My mama told me we are
that passes into the man shoots it and boom goes
(25:20):
to dynamite. We're back, Carlos. We're still talking about j
Edgar Hoover and and the possibility, the real possibility that
he was a black man, a black man who hated
being a black man and and thus punished other black man,
a real, a real six cycle happening, and that Fuco said, Okay,
(25:46):
let's jump into some of this research because and you've
already covered a fair amount of it is and you've
hit a lot of the important points. But Jagger Hoover,
he's the head of the FBI for forty seven years.
He's best known for his efforts to number one and
take down black people, Number two take down the Gaze,
and number three takedown communists, and he often sort of
(26:08):
leveraged the three of them against each other as a
way of conflating and capitalizing on whatever he wanted from
that group. Amongst his greatest hits of ship that he
did Marcus Garvey's Black Star line, which he was able
to sabotage. He also famously launched Cointel pro uh, the
(26:31):
FBI's counter intelligence program where leaders of the civil rights
groups such as the Black Panther Party were gunned down
with FBI involvement, and most famously and you hit this,
he was the person who greenlit the raids and the
ultimate assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. Yeah. Yeah, So
a lot of classics under his belt. You know, great, great,
(26:53):
great guy always invited to the cook out. I feel like, yeah, man,
And he also we don't talk about brother Malcolm, but
he also like so Bumpy Smalls was protecting Malcolm in
the final days after like Malcolm wild out and said, like,
you know, Elijah, remember when he was on TV, said
Elijah Mohammed, babies different women, I love, I love your
(27:19):
soldier boy interpretation. Elijah mommed, well, I know that the
FBI was like they had an FBI informant in his protection,
so they'd actually they'd actually infiltrateed so like I mean, like,
but they were mad at the guy that had infiltrated
(27:41):
because he tried to save Malcolm's life after he was
shot Mountain. They were like, what are you doing? What
are you doing? Shame? Say what you do? You suck
to win out of him. Those chess compressions gonna stay
in this man, Are you crazy? Any one of those
(28:03):
forty bullets we pumped in him might have popped out
and he could have kept living. Are you fucking psychopathic?
He couldn't have helped him. You you killed him good,
You killed him, real good, real good. But yeah, man,
I mean, I just didn't want that hit not not
to go. Uh notice, I think I think that's totally fair.
(28:24):
You're right to have brought it up. And and I
will say that despite all of that, j Edgar Hoover's
greatest scandal was not so much as racist and at
least according to white history, but it was actually, as
you mentioned, his closeted homosexuality and cross dressing, that those
were the things that were sort of like most famously
(28:45):
associated with him. And I have to assume that some
of the I don't even know if it's the correct
term anymore, but the quote unquote cross dressing may not
have even been a thing that they could as much prove,
but a thing that they keep us him up because
of his closeted background and just people fucking with his
(29:06):
his name as it were, Well, yeah, absolutely, I mean
they want to. I mean it's more or less about
like homophobia and and leveraging homophobia at at Jagger Hoover's legacy.
But in the first place, I mean if he was,
if he was queer, which it looks like he was,
then you know, because he lived with his driver, Clif Tolson,
(29:28):
and CLIs Toulsen was the one that like he left
everything his estate to him. And what I think it
points out is that to be gay at the time
was to be hunted, right and like, but he did
know he could have done so much for people like himself,
but instead it was like, listen, we're gonna be like
(29:50):
it's like equality for me, but not for anybody else,
you know, yes, yes, And so in these kind of
lavender scares of the nineteen fifties where they purged, you know,
purge government of this threat that that basically what it
was was the thought was that queer people could be
leveraged by communists because of their their sexual identity, and
(30:13):
so that they were, they would they would be compromised, right,
so they would be compromised. And whoever thought that about gays,
what he thought about black people was they also could
be easily compromised because they worked too smart in the head.
So that's why people like people like Paul Robeson or W. E. B.
Two boys like who were actually communists, like he, he
(30:36):
felt that they were. He almost pitied black people because
he thought they could have no original thought on their own.
But they were easily swayed. And we see it today
where it's like you'll you'll see like, oh, like BLM
is just a Marxist organization. They're they're easily swayed by
the Marxist people are like, nah, you know a lot
(30:57):
of folks in America don't even know what the fund
Marx is. You know what I'm saying, We're just trying
to not get shot nigger. When we go to the story,
how I'm not being swayed, I'm just asking you not
to kill me. I think you're you're mixing those two.
But yeah, lengthen I'm gonna tell you something wild today
like that. That's that's that's the insanity of the police state. Right. So,
(31:20):
like back in the day violence, I mean, like in
the nineteenth century all the way up to the early
nineteen eighties, like there was kind of more like white
mob violence. You know what I'm saying. So it's like
worried about being in a neighborhood and a white mob
would get you. Now now that it's been we've we've
taken the time to organize that and that's just the
police's business. So like I remember this morning, I was
walking my dog and uh, this is crazy. This dude
(31:45):
came through. And I live in a nice neighborhood. So like,
so I was offended, but this guy came It's it's
the it's the time of the craziest. So he came through.
He had a spear like something a gladiator would have.
It was a three spear, yeah, with a double edged spear.
And I was like, good morning, haven't had my coffee.
And my man is just like kind of walking hard,
(32:07):
trying to break into cars. And I'm with a spear.
Well he's got the spear, but he's trying cars. He's
just trying. The spear is just his spear that he carries.
His hands are the ones that are Okay, I got you.
So I'm like with my dog and I'm like, you know,
I'm having a little New York man, and I'm like
should I call this in absolutely so, so like I
(32:27):
call the cops. I'm literally describing myself. So then we
so I had to hang out in the dog park.
Well they looked for this motherfucker because I'm literally I'm like, yeah, okay,
So he had black hoodieo on. You know what I'm saying,
black jacket. Uh, he had Adda's pants on and some
(32:51):
like classic Jordan's I'm like, ship Nick, I'm wearing the
same thing. I love the idea that they that you
had to go as far out of your way as possible,
do not accidentally call this man a spirit chucker, and
that that to me speaks heroics. Thank you, thank you.
(33:12):
I was it was a little trauma in the morning
before I had my coffee. But I was like, oh
my god, oh my god. But I realized, you know,
I can't call the cops. I might as well just
getting the cruiser myself. So right anyway, that I don't
know where I was going with that story, well, but
(33:33):
is wild. I do think that that some of what
j Edgar Hoover did is not often sort of like communicated,
in that he helped to create a culture that's bigger
than the actual like choices that he made. Right that
like so much of our our understanding of the current
police state. It's the ship he helped cook up in
(33:58):
his early efforts to sort of like sabotage, to manage
to play these fucking weird mind games with our leaders.
And so it isn't just limited to like, oh, he
killed a dude and he was mean to these other ones.
It's truly like now, he created the system that fox
with us today. He absolutely and he created a system
(34:20):
good guys, bad guys, right, because in the nineteen thirties,
our heroes were like Bonnie and Clyde, John Dillager, al Capone, Right,
these were anti heroes because people were on their back
in the Great Depression. But he, you know, he busted
all these people, and he wanted people to feel that
there was a fight against darkness, was light and dark,
(34:43):
and like that's I think been the kind of like
that's been a constant theme throughout our history up up
until this point. You know, it's like it's those that
are yeah, those that are on one side of the
gun or the other. That's totally fair. And you talked
a little bit about like the you obviously Gore Fidal
talks a ton about how he grew up around the family,
(35:04):
the Hoover family, and everybody understood them to be quote
unquote mulatto, which was obviously the term that they used
at the time. Similarly, author Anthony Samuels he has similar
claims from families on the East Coast who all believed
Edgar had black roots and even referred to him as
soul brother. Soul Brother was apparently JEdgar Hoover's nickname, I assume,
(35:31):
not affectionately. I don't like brother, you got it. It
was more like a soul brother. And he'd get angry
and storm off. Absolutely, they'd be like, so, brother, take
the service. Interests my shoes, I don't show you. Why
did they talk like that? But there was even one
(35:55):
relative I've ever seen this documentary about Jacob and it
was like one black relative that was like this woman
that says she was related to JACKO. Hoover, that said
she wrote a book about it, and she said, we
have a very powerful cousin. Yeah. D c. Millie McGhee,
yeah mcge Llie McGee claims she she grew up in Mississippi,
(36:16):
and she said in the late nineteen fifties, that's a
young girl growing up in rural McComb, Mississippi. A story
had been passed down through several generations that the land
that they lived on was owned by the Hoover family
and that their grandfather said that they that Edgar was
his second cousin and was passing for white, and yeah,
he was this powerful cousin that they had, but they
(36:38):
were so afraid to talk about it because he would
potentially seek vengeance and kill them. That that they lived
under threat of violence because of the possibility of airing
out that he is a black man. See, that wouldn't
be me. I come up to the scrib In DC, like,
what's up? Cause yo at start down the Oh my god,
(37:06):
it's me million all the way from Mississippi. Brother. Brother,
don't act like you don't know me. Now, don't act
like you don't know me. Don't act like you don't
know because it's so funny. But I just feel that way, man,
because so many people were like that. Like if you
(37:27):
think about like roy Cohne, who's who was a famous lawyer.
They worked with Senator McCarthy and the McCarthy is um right,
So he roy Cone sent Judith and at the Rosenberg
to the gas chamber for treason yes, right, so at
the time, like he did that, but like he also
exposed people during the Communist scare and the Lavender Scare.
(37:50):
He was big in the lavender scare. But Roy Cohen
himself was gay, So he ruined the lives of millions
of Americans who were in like civil service jobs, knowing
full well he was gay, right, right, But he's willing
to He's in that weird zone where it's like, I mean,
and I hate to slip down this whole, but a
lot of people that like you, you know, like in slavery,
(38:12):
like you you give up your humanity and hopes of
better like the kind of like the house negro thing,
you give up your humanity and hopes of better treatment.
Oh you sick, No, we all sick, boss like and
that kind of thing. That kind of thing. I think
that makes perfect sense. And I think in a in
a very you know, if we really wanted to explore
this in terms of what it actually means, it just
(38:35):
shows the way that white supremacism sort of like seeps
into every facet of American culture and experience, right that,
like I think that hurting my own kind will be
my salvation. That doesn't make me a hero, but it
definitely makes it a more complicated, I guess villain than
(38:58):
we would want it to be. This is just this
person waking up with like deep seated hatred in their heart.
It truly is them thinking, Okay, if this means my survival,
I will learn to hate the people who move and
look like I do. Absolutely, and that's why I vote
Republican there, you know, to save me, save me, you know,
(39:22):
That's what Candaswe is my best friends. I always feel
like because I went to private school and I'm just
making up for lost time. I'm now on a kind
of like a rehabilitation program, just like trusting my own people,
loving my own people, love myself. That's usually what it is.
(39:43):
Because I went KME through twelve. Then I went to
private college, and then I was like I was just
trying to get like jobs, like kind of like trying
to be like the token this and that on the show,
you know what I'm saying. And then I was like,
because I was actually what happened was I had deep
seated racism, and so when I gave that up, so
are working with people like Larry one more and everything
like that, everything changed in my life you know, like, yeah,
(40:05):
I still got a white wife. But you know what
I'm saying, Hey, we can't all be perfect, you know perfect.
I mean that that came before. You know what I'm
but my kids are Dan brown, you know, like it's
it's it's good. I'm doing what I can. Man. I
think you talked a little bit about sort of the
Republicans and it it reminds me that I read an
(40:28):
article that talked about, you know, jed Ger Hoover has
his own film. Leo DiCaprio plays Jedger Hoover in the
Clint Eastwood portrayal of him, and one of the things
that the article talked about is that it delves heavily
this film into his closeted homosexuality, but conveniently skips over
his race. And one of the things that came to
(40:49):
mind as they they sort of addressed that is how
it's probably a lot easier still even today, for white
people to see him as saying but complex if he's closeted,
but much more challenging for them to have that same
sort of sense of his sanity and reasoning if he
(41:09):
is a a person struggling with his racial identity. M
because I don't think people, not a lot of white
people understand that, you know what I'm saying, because they don't,
you know, as they in their own words, they don't
have a culture. So look, you know, like they might
not understand what it's like to like they're like black
people haven't fine in this country, but they would never
change places with them. And so yeah, so the thought
(41:32):
is that you know, Hoover was like suffering from that,
you know, like probably because he was a man of
secrets too. If your whole life is just like secrets
and you got shit on everybody, he has shot JFK.
He knew about like l b J's, b J's, you know, everybody, everybody,
(41:53):
then you don't trust anybody, sure as hell, don't trust yourself.
And it's like I think that kind of toxic cocktail,
you know, like there's no way he would have ever
come out as someone like a man of color like
been you know, like really lived his truth and would
present it to his dying day that he was white
and trusted that he knew, he knew his demo in
(42:17):
his audience, He knew that his legacy would be like
if anything okay, then they'll probably say I'm you know,
gay for for Clive Toulson, and they won't say anything
else about me being black because people can't handle that ship.
You know. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. He truly
was like, and I think we continue to we the
(42:37):
royal we, the white devil continues to sort of pick
and choose what is conveniently okay for us to discover
about people and not. And it reminds me. We did
a mini episode about all of the various US presidents
who have been accused and are proven to have come Yeah,
(42:58):
it makes it you nigger, But they've been they've been
sort of like, uh, they've they've been aired out as
as black and or brown people or secretly having black
brown lineage. And they're six of them outside obviously of Obama,
who you know is the first one who came forward
(43:20):
and said it. But there's Thomas Jefferson, There's Abraham Lincoln, apparently,
Calvin Coolidge, Warren Harding, Dwight Alas Eisenhower in my personal favorite,
Andrew Jackson apparently comes definitely. But that's it's it's that
right where it's like you have all of these people
who his last name was Jackson, like Samuel l like Samuel,
(43:46):
you know, come on now, just saying you want to
see I want to see a portrait of his granddaddy.
You know. But that's the thing, right, is that, like, truly,
I think it was that his grandfather was a black
man and like and they could not deal with that,
and they refused to deal with that to this day.
And how healing might that be for a lot of
(44:09):
generations to know that that Andrew Jackson, who spent his
entire career doing horrible, malicious things to Native Americans and
black people and all kinds of people in this country,
was doing it out of a type of self hatred
and not just like an empowered position as a white
man doing white man ship in front of all his
(44:31):
other white friends. Right, he went extra sauce with it.
So that's what I'm saying. It's like, when you go
extra sauce, there's there's a chance that you just might
be what you hate. So you're saying, when I put
extra a one sauce on misteak, I might be a one. Absolutely,
(44:52):
it's gonna hit you right here right here. You wander
that extra guak you got. I love this, Jordan's this
is great this is this is a great conversation. We
I think we nailed it. I think we did all
the things. Could you tell that you've almost finished your
your drink, which is very exciting. Oh, we can always
(45:14):
get more. Now, you don't have to get more, not
on my account. Now, if you want to get drunk
while your kids are sleeping, that's a personal choice. Don't
make it my defication. I mean, I'm a great dad.
Never while they're awake, you know what, I'm sorry, Like,
just yeah, they just wait till their sleep, then you
go in their room and yeah, that's a good dad ship.
(45:39):
You know me too well, sir. Could you tell the
people at home where they can find you and what
you have going on? Absolutely, you can find me at
Jordan carloson Twitter. You can find me the realer Jordan
Carlos on Instagram, not like those fake ones. You know
what I'm saying. So those are great. Also, please once
once again, my show premiers in July, and that's that's
(46:01):
Everything's trash. It'll be on free Form and Hulu. Really
excited about that, and then you can catch me on
AMC Plus. Can we talk about this which is also
in the sun. That's channel really excited about that and
LANs you gotta come on and be my guest on that, man,
I would love that. That sounds amazing. So yeah, please
go check out all of that stuff for Jordan's and
follow him, and as always, you can follow me at
(46:21):
lankson Kerman and please subscribe to all the bullshit that
you're supposed to do the podcast so that we get
people to hear about this motherfucker. And I'm not just
speaking into a void. Huh. That wouldn't that be nice
if we can make this not avoid for everybody's experience.
I'm sure it's not. Man. Listen, you're beloved. People love you. Man.
(46:43):
I saw you have sex with that lady on I
thought you have sex with that lady. You're doing fine
well man, we didn't this. This was a fun one
by bitch because of the brons my crop chips in
(47:08):
your hands, Uncola bears are racist. They also player olsing
the money rsions and many turney stuff. I can't tell
me noth
Do you know what the J stands for? I've always
been it feels like it's got to be like Jeremond
Judas Judas. Is that really what it is? Because that's no.
I don't, I don't. I have no idea what it is.
I've no idea. I guess it's John or something like that. Chuckaboo,
that's what it is. How was your Majesty Edgar Hoover? John?
(00:29):
John would be told, passes n your majesty, your main son,
Edgar Hoover, chips, yours mans, racist astost money, martial stuff.
(00:58):
I can't tell me. Yep, yep, yep. There it is.
There it is. Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another phenomenal
episode of My Mama Told Me, the podcast where we
died deep, deep into the pockets of black conspiracy theories
and we finally worked to prove that Boris ko Joe
(01:19):
is the ugliest name for the most handsome man to
ever walk this planet. His parents knew that they had to.
They had to. Even amount they had, they couldn't messle
around and give this man a name the something beautiful
like meadow lark. You know what I mean. You gotta
give someone that pretty a name that is also beautiful.
(01:40):
You give them something beautiful, it's basically gonna cause like
a wormhole to open up and we're all gonna get
sucked into the pits of hell. It's not possible. So
thank you Mr and Mrs ko Joe for making the
sacrifice that none of us were brave enough to make.
This is the theory I'm spreading this week. It's pretty
much true. I think it's the most true thing I've
ever said anywhere. Always, I think, yeah, that makes sense.
(02:04):
I'm your host, Thankstein Kern, and I'm rambling weird today.
That's that's the energy I'm hitting you with. I don't know.
Talking's hard, and Buddy, I shouldn't have a podcast, but
I do. You know who is a good talker who
doesn't ramble? Funny? And and probably he is. He's got
all the words. He's a man who's well versed in
(02:26):
words and in both funny and otherwise. He's he's so funny.
I've known him. I know him for a while. He's
a hilarious dude based out of New York, and he
has so much cool ship going on. He hasn't amazing.
He's on a show called Everything's trash on Freeform that's
coming out, and he has an amazing show on AMC
called can we talk about this? So funny? You guys
are gonna love him. Please get it up for my guests.
(02:46):
Mr Jordan's Carlos thank you. Yeah, all right, Helen. I
feel like I'm answering anything. The band thanks us, love
your roots. That other guy that's poor roots just this.
(03:09):
We only know two of them. And I said, yeah,
I always feel bad when people come out and they're like,
we love the roots, you know, with Quest Love and
uh Black Thought and the Brest. You can stop there.
You're stopping, yo, Man, that's been a minute. I'm proud
of all that you've done. I'm not happy for you
(03:29):
man doing it black Man successful. The feeling is mutual.
I'm so happy you're here. You've been hysterical for a
long time and you came to us with what I
think is a very hysterical conspiracy theory. It is it
is one that is it hysterical, hysterical license or it's
really funny, too serious, dead as supers that one of
(03:55):
our only you know what I'm saying. It's haunting if true,
but it has it cannot not be funny. You said,
my mama told me Jack Hoover was black. Around my house,
we call him Jay Hoover, J who a little rock side,
(04:20):
But it don't mean the same thing. Jay Hoover. Hoover
was definitely whover, definitely had a thing against black folks.
We know that all of the Lucas brothers do this
in the black masside. We thank him for that. But
I'm a Black History Month quiz Bowl champion. I knew that.
I knew that J. J. Hoover was was dirty to
(04:41):
begin with, and gully and and and just gross disgusting.
But on I mean like he just couldn't sleep at
night thinking that black people were happy he was that
he was that guy. No, he he had a very
h sick vendetta against against a few groups. I don't
(05:04):
want to make it so that black people are are
the only ones that he was targeting, because I think
it's important that the acknowledge he hated a lot of folds.
But boy, but boy, did he have a special taste
in his mouth. He really wanted nigga blood, and UH
worked real hard to get it exactly. But the thing
(05:25):
about it was, I mean, yes, a special taste for
it because it ran through his veins. Yes, and so okay,
hold on, wait a minute, I'm there to listen. Don't
let me ramble. Yeah, no, please please, I have so
many questions. Please go ahead, man, tell me for you
(05:47):
where where you first became aware of j Edgar Hoover
and his alleged black history. Just looking at this he
looked like some of the deacons of the deacon board.
I was like, oh, okay, he got Indian his family,
(06:07):
you know, like, just looking at him, he's got the
ponce nez. We all got that one cousin who's got
the ponce nez, you know what I'm saying. And so
looking at him, the slick back hair, his skin, he
was always dark, right, he was always dark. And I
was like, let me, let me look it up. So
I said, google ja grew who were young. He looked
(06:31):
like my dad, you know what I'm saying, or at
least my grandfather. I mean, when you look at other
people that chose like he was. Okay. So the author
Gore Vidal. Gorvidal wrote books like Aaron Burr really great
author and uh public public intellect, things like that. In
the nineteen six season early nineteen seventy. So gore Vidal
(06:53):
grew up with Ja grew who Jo and he's in
d C. And he said, Gorvidal would embellishment. He's not
one to lie. And he said that everybody knew that
the Hoovers passed for white. Yes, everybody knew it. Everybody
knew it, and that grew up in d C. But
it's just like that was just like a rumor out there,
(07:13):
you know what I mean, it was hard to make
the accusation because of the power of j Edgar Hoover. Yeah,
it's it's so funny because I I love that you
brought up the the pictures, right that so many of
his pictures he sort of like looks oddly like a
a light skinned black person. And one of the things
that I felt in looking at a lot of his
(07:35):
pictures is how much he benefited from like the black
and white era of photographs, right that, Like, it has
to be intentional that we're not seeing color pictures of
this dude, because he's gonna be noticeably darker than all
of these other people he's like bossing around at these
FBI tables, you know what I mean. Colored pictures of
(07:57):
this colored man, you're absolutely right now, you know, that
was my first that was my first inkling. I was like,
Corvidal knew that about him, and then there's that kind
of to me. I took that. I ran with it.
I was like, I know what it is to be
like to get over one's own internalized racism. Hm, you
know say I mean Jay gerber hooever never did. He
(08:18):
ated himself on a lot of levels. He was never
living his truth right, So he was closet and gay, right,
and so like he took it out of gaze and
so he took it out on blacks and like all
the people that he had a beef with, that was
who he was. So that makes me know that like
all the more that that's that's what he was about. Man,
you know what I'm saying. So there's there's also no
(08:39):
schools named after Jehovah. There's none named after him, which
tells me definitely black man, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, Yeah,
it's so funny because part of the reason I imagine
that people aren't necessarily like eager to put his name
on things is despite the fact that he obviously was
a dick head, the black people dickheads probably too light
(09:02):
of a word he was. He was and a silly
billy too to the blacks in the days. But on
top of that, he he was kind of known as
a as an asshole to everybody else. Like it wasn't
as if like everybody was like, yo, you know what
funk with is j Edgar Hoover. You know who are
(09:23):
really just like hanging out with is that motherfucker j
Edgar Hoover. He tells great jokes, I know. I mean
he got rid of like people like John Dillinger, you
know what I'm saying, gangsters, the public enemies of the
nineteen twenties and thirties, And it's like, you know what,
they were fun fucking fun, and you know what, it
was white and black want to see him go away,
but we didn't have the power at the time, you know.
(09:44):
I mean, it's it's not like John Dillinger like lining
up with black folks to make Cooper go away, you know.
But but you know it's there were many people in
the race to that that that that did not like him.
But there were many people in his cross hairs. And
the thing about it was, I think it just came
(10:05):
from his own lies about himself and the bs about himself.
And he had a particular thing for Marcus Garvey and
the black show. Right, so he went to a point
like he made a name for himself in about nineteen
Come with me now you see me just pumped the
glasses right there. You know you know what that is.
(10:25):
You know what that is. We're gonna go into deep,
big facts, big facts, going into the big facts. Now,
Young j H was like, Okay, I'm here in d C.
Is gonna be some got the yak. There's gonna be
some black black history real quick. He's trying to make
a name for himself. No problem, He's gonna make a
name for himself in d C. And and I think
(10:48):
he was working at the time for you know, there
wasn't like a the FBI wasn't a thing yet, right,
so that was not a thing, right, So, but he
was working in that version of what the historic from
that so so basically he had to make a name.
And so Marcus Garvey had kind of been on the
raidar of the government because he had the audacity, the
(11:08):
audacity to ship to ship black people from one place
to the other, or black owned made products from one
place to the other. It was like he was like,
what if we go back to where we come from?
And white people were like, wait, adamn, We're gonna have
to create a branch of the government to deal with
(11:29):
this motherfucker because that is not okay. He was an unwieldy,
unruly negro. I mean, Gary Cheft Garvey. I always loved
that one. Like he's just like he's in the back
of that car just looking. He was like a rap video,
you know what I'm saying. He's got like this uniform on.
(11:49):
Never went war, never went to war, but he's got
like a general's hat on, and he knew what he
was like, you know what he's doing. You know he's
so he's stirring them white soup. He's stirring them white
I'm sure some of them like, do we have to
call it black start? He's not a star to me.
So white people got you know, they got shook, the
(12:10):
fragility of it all and so so so then Hoover
was like, I mean, man, right, he went so far.
So he had I remember the first agent that he
employed because he couldn't go himself right totally? Could he could?
He totally could you've seen Dr Daniel Hall Williams. You've
seen Dr Charles Drew. I remember black his dry mother
(12:32):
to be like Dr Charles Drew Black History Month icon.
I'm like him, are you sure, doctors we can pull
showing up the same way. Dr Janiel will is wider
than Vermont dude. But like, you know, it's like so anyway,
(12:56):
he employed this one black man who's by the way,
his name was his middle name was Worm. Yeah, yeah,
I don't know about Worm. Tell me more about this
Worm character. Nobody came to his funeral. Fun that guy
so so he was so this Worm guy basically was
the first kind of like black FBI agent. He infiltrated
(13:20):
Garves operation and got them to you know, like basically
planted the seeds of mistrust within the organization and then
went so far like so Hoover had him even do
things like sabotage, like throwing pieces like a junk and
metal into into the gas tanks of the Black Star
Line ships. They wanted this nigga to fail. I mean,
(13:43):
that's not even Usually it's like observe and reports, right,
that's that's like what the government's job is to do.
But they're like like Hoover was like, that's not enough.
You're supposed to really use like time travel rules as
as the government, you know what I mean, Like you
you look at it, but you don't funk with it.
And instead he was like, no, I'm gonna touch that almanac.
(14:05):
I'm gonna I'm gonna see what what I can build
from from burning down everything that this dude is trying
to build. Absolutely so he basically got garfy deported back
to Jamaica, ruined his ruined him and was able to
like use those closest to him to uh sabotage And
(14:26):
that's what made a name. That's the made a name
for Jahoover, right I mean? And then he like, look,
you take the values of your take on the values
of your oppressor to hope for better treatment. You know
what I'm saying, Well, that's what I was gonna ask you,
is is And I'm just curious to hear your thoughts
because you're clearly very well versed in your boy j Hoover.
(14:49):
Is how much of his behavior do you think was
like ingrained in him from the beginning that like, as
a family they just decide did we don't like niggas
and we're gonna do everything we can to be mean
to them even though we are them. Or was this like,
oh you got some affirmation you gotta pat on your
(15:10):
head from like how hard you went at Garvy and
so now that's gonna be like your signature move, do
you know what I mean? Most people that like because
j Graver was never elected anything, he was a political
animal in d C. So he understood how to work things.
He understood like it's not about who knows you, it's
(15:32):
it's you know who you know or whatever it is
the leaders of power. He understood how to work that.
He knew the game was not a game. But I
feel like what probably started with, like it can't just
be one thing, you know, I'm saying, there's a lot
in that in that gumbo. It's like he probably definitely
passed or didn't pass the doll test, you know when
(15:54):
they give you the bad black doll and like so like, yeah,
you know it, I don't know that's I mean, are
you don't know that test? I don't think so. Bro,
you got a daughter, right, yeah, you need to be
putting some black dolls in that crib immediately. Oh, she
can't use their fingers yet, so it doesn't matter by
(16:14):
the time. By the time they are three, the messages
have already they've already got the messages that black is bad.
So it's like a test where they present a white
doll and a black doll and then they're like, which
doll is a bad one? And then usually the person
administering the test is like, right, this one's names pretty naughty, Hoggins,
(16:37):
what did you say something? Did you say something crash SHANIQUEA.
This doll's cursing, Maybe don't pick that one. But the
worst part of the dolls test is that the kids
make the connection. They're like, okay, so the black children
take the tests, they're like this black doll is is bad.
And then they're like, so, do you mean you're bad?
(17:00):
And then because you're black, and they're like, yeah, I'm bad.
So it's like by the yeah, man, So it's like,
I think he didn't pass the doll test and we've
been paying for it ever since. So it was like
and he had this thing about like black people that
were living their best lives he could not stand so
like Dr King, remember he like he was like Dr
(17:23):
King because I mean, listen, Martin Luther the King right
is a god and a great man. But yes he was.
He was loose with the dick and that's you know,
we know that. You know, we know that Jay Whover
used that against him, you know, and I was like,
that's why he was like king, You're yeah. It's one
(17:46):
of the things that probably is going to be helpful
for people to put this in context is that Jack
or Hoover worked as sort of like the head of
the quote unquote FBI then becoming the FBI for forty
seven years, so he spanned he spanned some black men's lifetime,
uh to fucking torment people, which meant that like he
(18:09):
really got his hands and a lot of ship there.
It wasn't just like, oh he had a couple of
big hits. He really was a part of of sort
of like the threat for so many generations of black
and brown people. Absolutely, so, I mean what he did
was like he just had a special I mean, let's
say he had a heart on you know what I'm saying.
(18:30):
He had a heart on floor. Any black lead on
the come up, and he took them all out, even
Sam Cook, like Sam like even took out Sam Cook
so so by like he's kind of the reason why
there's a certain disenchantment or like a certain piece missing
for I think Black people when it comes to like leadership,
(18:52):
were just like they killed a lot of leaders, you know,
they did it all in like five the tenure span,
and with that, it's just like a giant whole was
left and Jack Hooper's stupid head is in the middle
of that hole. So it's like, yeah, I feel like
he was just like grinning, like, yeah, I didn't. I
do think it makes me think that that so much
(19:13):
work could be done. Granted they've they've done horrific things
for generations, even past Jigor Hoover, but so much work
could be done if the FBI even just took the
time to denounce some of the actions that he took
during the time that he was sort of like their
quote unquote leader. That like if they just came up
(19:34):
and we're like, yo, no, lie, he was bugging are
bad on that one? That wasn't exactly how we run things.
But instead they go, Nope, great man, flawless figure, nothing
to talk about, and we move forward. And it's like,
oh no, man, you can't write these like every year
the fucking the Twitter for the FBI is like, we
(19:54):
missed you, Martin Luther King, and it's like you don't
get to do that because you know you won't. You
won't can say what what actually happened? Well, of course
they miss him. They used to bug his hotels and
just like they love I mean, listen, the day King died,
he sent Coretta like this insane tape with all like
(20:17):
just like like bedroom noises of King whatever, like that's
what that's how that nigga said. And then right and
then before that, he said in a letter to King
saying he should kill himself that like obviously Coretta read
you know what I'm saying. Like he was just like
(20:37):
I was like, what, don't you have anything else to do? Man?
Are there any other crises in the Country's like no,
the Negro, the Negro, like the black Messiah will come
and just like he'll take us, Hoba. We're only one
in ten of the people in the United States. But
what huh you know for him to be sitting there,
(20:57):
He's like, damn, Martin, I hope this let him finds you. Well,
maybe you should kill yourself. I don't know. Yeah, have
you ever thought about it? It says. It starts King.
It's like King, you are an animal saving your breakfast.
(21:18):
You're like Jesus Christ. I would even say again, I
have I think I have a sixth sense of humor.
There is a fun there's a part of me that
has so much fun with antiquated racism. Like that people
felt comfortable saying at a certain point that we've now
like socialized out that they probably so actively believe. But
(21:41):
like you, you don't say it, like calling somebody an
animal is so fucking funny of being like you, you animal,
You fucking animals, you fucking savages. And I love it
so much. And for those reasons, I know he wasn't.
I don't know why. And if you do all the
(22:05):
man you can clearly say, I mean, okay, that's those
are some trap moves. Though. That's some trap nigger ship.
When you're telling somebody to kill themselves in a battle, Yeah,
that's some that's some nigorous ship. He behaved in a
way that was too passionate for him not to have
personal steaks in this fight. Absolutely that it can't be
(22:27):
just you acting completely for your job. Nobody cares that
much about protecting the produce at target. Do you know
what I mean? Like you're doing a thing that has
to be personal for you. And so yeah, it was
also above and beyond. This is how I knew he
was not white, right, So like he when he and
(22:49):
like he had this thing was like in the nineteen
thirties excuse my nineteen thirties impression voice, where he's like, hey,
junior g man, today they're gonna be a man man.
He was like, he was like, we get we get
the best in the brightest, Why the tallest, you know,
the fattest, the tallest, the best, like and they all
it was just over six ft tall. You had to
(23:09):
be white, over six ft tall, and and have like
a high school grad like a high school degree. But
they all look like male models. So I was like,
this guy is just doing rose ceremonies. Yeah, he just
wants he wants boys to look at you know, he's
just collecting buff boys to be his his special team
of buff boys. That which is fine, Which is fine
(23:32):
as long as you're honest about what you're doing. He wasn't,
you know, Like yeah, so like you just saying you
just saying I'm collecting buff boys. I enjoy buff boys
and also, if you enjoy killing black leaders, you and
you can be a part of that and they'll be like, yeah,
it's it's not like people are gonna be like what
the funk. They'll be like, yeah, that sounds pretty cool
(23:54):
to me. I'll be a buff boy, yo, man, I'm
gonna tell you something. I actually got to interview a
guy that worked side by side of Jacker Hoover, whoa
yeah yeah yeah. So like I was like, was he
ever late? And he was like, that's strange. He was
five to ten minutes late sometimes at work. Was see
(24:15):
black already thought that that was gonna go somewhere like
super insightful and indeed, nope, black black. He was like, no,
Hoover was very good to his black employees. He shook
(24:37):
his hand, the hand of his driver, and it's made.
And I was like, my man, my man, my man.
Ah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't know what good is.
And that's that's the different thing that we got to
work out. Yeah, but I'm convinced, bro, I'm convinced. I'm
just saying I can't be all right, Well, this is
this is some heavy ship. You've got some girl insight.
(24:59):
We're gonna say a break. We'll be back with more,
Jordan Carlos and more. My mama told me we are
that passes into the man shoots it and boom goes
(25:20):
to dynamite. We're back, Carlos. We're still talking about j
Edgar Hoover and and the possibility, the real possibility that
he was a black man, a black man who hated
being a black man and and thus punished other black man,
a real, a real six cycle happening, and that Fuco said, Okay,
(25:46):
let's jump into some of this research because and you've
already covered a fair amount of it is and you've
hit a lot of the important points. But Jagger Hoover,
he's the head of the FBI for forty seven years.
He's best known for his efforts to number one and
take down black people, Number two take down the Gaze,
and number three takedown communists, and he often sort of
(26:08):
leveraged the three of them against each other as a
way of conflating and capitalizing on whatever he wanted from
that group. Amongst his greatest hits of ship that he
did Marcus Garvey's Black Star line, which he was able
to sabotage. He also famously launched Cointel pro uh, the
(26:31):
FBI's counter intelligence program where leaders of the civil rights
groups such as the Black Panther Party were gunned down
with FBI involvement, and most famously and you hit this,
he was the person who greenlit the raids and the
ultimate assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. Yeah. Yeah, So
a lot of classics under his belt. You know, great, great,
(26:53):
great guy always invited to the cook out. I feel like, yeah, man,
And he also we don't talk about brother Malcolm, but
he also like so Bumpy Smalls was protecting Malcolm in
the final days after like Malcolm wild out and said, like,
you know, Elijah, remember when he was on TV, said
Elijah Mohammed, babies different women, I love, I love your
(27:19):
soldier boy interpretation. Elijah mommed, well, I know that the
FBI was like they had an FBI informant in his protection,
so they'd actually they'd actually infiltrateed so like I mean, like,
but they were mad at the guy that had infiltrated
(27:41):
because he tried to save Malcolm's life after he was
shot Mountain. They were like, what are you doing? What
are you doing? Shame? Say what you do? You suck
to win out of him. Those chess compressions gonna stay
in this man, Are you crazy? Any one of those
(28:03):
forty bullets we pumped in him might have popped out
and he could have kept living. Are you fucking psychopathic?
He couldn't have helped him. You you killed him good,
You killed him, real good, real good. But yeah, man,
I mean, I just didn't want that hit not not
to go. Uh notice, I think I think that's totally fair.
(28:24):
You're right to have brought it up. And and I
will say that despite all of that, j Edgar Hoover's
greatest scandal was not so much as racist and at
least according to white history, but it was actually, as
you mentioned, his closeted homosexuality and cross dressing, that those
were the things that were sort of like most famously
(28:45):
associated with him. And I have to assume that some
of the I don't even know if it's the correct
term anymore, but the quote unquote cross dressing may not
have even been a thing that they could as much prove,
but a thing that they keep us him up because
of his closeted background and just people fucking with his
(29:06):
his name as it were, Well, yeah, absolutely, I mean
they want to. I mean it's more or less about
like homophobia and and leveraging homophobia at at Jagger Hoover's legacy.
But in the first place, I mean if he was,
if he was queer, which it looks like he was,
then you know, because he lived with his driver, Clif Tolson,
(29:28):
and CLIs Toulsen was the one that like he left
everything his estate to him. And what I think it
points out is that to be gay at the time
was to be hunted, right and like, but he did
know he could have done so much for people like himself,
but instead it was like, listen, we're gonna be like
(29:50):
it's like equality for me, but not for anybody else,
you know, yes, yes, And so in these kind of
lavender scares of the nineteen fifties where they purged, you know,
purge government of this threat that that basically what it
was was the thought was that queer people could be
leveraged by communists because of their their sexual identity, and
(30:13):
so that they were, they would they would be compromised, right,
so they would be compromised. And whoever thought that about gays,
what he thought about black people was they also could
be easily compromised because they worked too smart in the head.
So that's why people like people like Paul Robeson or W. E. B.
Two boys like who were actually communists, like he, he
(30:36):
felt that they were. He almost pitied black people because
he thought they could have no original thought on their own.
But they were easily swayed. And we see it today
where it's like you'll you'll see like, oh, like BLM
is just a Marxist organization. They're they're easily swayed by
the Marxist people are like, nah, you know a lot
(30:57):
of folks in America don't even know what the fund
Marx is. You know what I'm saying, We're just trying
to not get shot nigger. When we go to the story,
how I'm not being swayed, I'm just asking you not
to kill me. I think you're you're mixing those two.
But yeah, lengthen I'm gonna tell you something wild today
like that. That's that's that's the insanity of the police state. Right. So,
(31:20):
like back in the day violence, I mean, like in
the nineteenth century all the way up to the early
nineteen eighties, like there was kind of more like white
mob violence. You know what I'm saying. So it's like
worried about being in a neighborhood and a white mob
would get you. Now now that it's been we've we've
taken the time to organize that and that's just the
police's business. So like I remember this morning, I was
walking my dog and uh, this is crazy. This dude
(31:45):
came through. And I live in a nice neighborhood. So like,
so I was offended, but this guy came It's it's
the it's the time of the craziest. So he came through.
He had a spear like something a gladiator would have.
It was a three spear, yeah, with a double edged spear.
And I was like, good morning, haven't had my coffee.
And my man is just like kind of walking hard,
(32:07):
trying to break into cars. And I'm with a spear.
Well he's got the spear, but he's trying cars. He's
just trying. The spear is just his spear that he carries.
His hands are the ones that are Okay, I got you.
So I'm like with my dog and I'm like, you know,
I'm having a little New York man, and I'm like
should I call this in absolutely so, so like I
(32:27):
call the cops. I'm literally describing myself. So then we
so I had to hang out in the dog park.
Well they looked for this motherfucker because I'm literally I'm like, yeah, okay,
So he had black hoodieo on. You know what I'm saying,
black jacket. Uh, he had Adda's pants on and some
(32:51):
like classic Jordan's I'm like, ship Nick, I'm wearing the
same thing. I love the idea that they that you
had to go as far out of your way as possible,
do not accidentally call this man a spirit chucker, and
that that to me speaks heroics. Thank you, thank you.
(33:12):
I was it was a little trauma in the morning
before I had my coffee. But I was like, oh
my god, oh my god. But I realized, you know,
I can't call the cops. I might as well just
getting the cruiser myself. So right anyway, that I don't
know where I was going with that story, well, but
(33:33):
is wild. I do think that that some of what
j Edgar Hoover did is not often sort of like communicated,
in that he helped to create a culture that's bigger
than the actual like choices that he made. Right that
like so much of our our understanding of the current
police state. It's the ship he helped cook up in
(33:58):
his early efforts to sort of like sabotage, to manage
to play these fucking weird mind games with our leaders.
And so it isn't just limited to like, oh, he
killed a dude and he was mean to these other ones.
It's truly like now, he created the system that fox
with us today. He absolutely and he created a system
(34:20):
good guys, bad guys, right, because in the nineteen thirties,
our heroes were like Bonnie and Clyde, John Dillager, al Capone, Right,
these were anti heroes because people were on their back
in the Great Depression. But he, you know, he busted
all these people, and he wanted people to feel that
there was a fight against darkness, was light and dark,
(34:43):
and like that's I think been the kind of like
that's been a constant theme throughout our history up up
until this point. You know, it's like it's those that
are yeah, those that are on one side of the
gun or the other. That's totally fair. And you talked
a little bit about like the you obviously Gore Fidal
talks a ton about how he grew up around the family,
(35:04):
the Hoover family, and everybody understood them to be quote
unquote mulatto, which was obviously the term that they used
at the time. Similarly, author Anthony Samuels he has similar
claims from families on the East Coast who all believed
Edgar had black roots and even referred to him as
soul brother. Soul Brother was apparently JEdgar Hoover's nickname, I assume,
(35:31):
not affectionately. I don't like brother, you got it. It
was more like a soul brother. And he'd get angry
and storm off. Absolutely, they'd be like, so, brother, take
the service. Interests my shoes, I don't show you. Why
did they talk like that? But there was even one
(35:55):
relative I've ever seen this documentary about Jacob and it
was like one black relative that was like this woman
that says she was related to JACKO. Hoover, that said
she wrote a book about it, and she said, we
have a very powerful cousin. Yeah. D c. Millie McGhee,
yeah mcge Llie McGee claims she she grew up in Mississippi,
(36:16):
and she said in the late nineteen fifties, that's a
young girl growing up in rural McComb, Mississippi. A story
had been passed down through several generations that the land
that they lived on was owned by the Hoover family
and that their grandfather said that they that Edgar was
his second cousin and was passing for white, and yeah,
he was this powerful cousin that they had, but they
(36:38):
were so afraid to talk about it because he would
potentially seek vengeance and kill them. That that they lived
under threat of violence because of the possibility of airing
out that he is a black man. See, that wouldn't
be me. I come up to the scrib In DC, like,
what's up? Cause yo at start down the Oh my god,
(37:06):
it's me million all the way from Mississippi. Brother. Brother,
don't act like you don't know me. Now, don't act
like you don't know me. Don't act like you don't
know because it's so funny. But I just feel that way, man,
because so many people were like that. Like if you
(37:27):
think about like roy Cohne, who's who was a famous lawyer.
They worked with Senator McCarthy and the McCarthy is um right,
So he roy Cone sent Judith and at the Rosenberg
to the gas chamber for treason yes, right, so at
the time, like he did that, but like he also
exposed people during the Communist scare and the Lavender Scare.
(37:50):
He was big in the lavender scare. But Roy Cohen
himself was gay, So he ruined the lives of millions
of Americans who were in like civil service jobs, knowing
full well he was gay, right, right, But he's willing
to He's in that weird zone where it's like, I mean,
and I hate to slip down this whole, but a
lot of people that like you, you know, like in slavery,
(38:12):
like you you give up your humanity and hopes of
better like the kind of like the house negro thing,
you give up your humanity and hopes of better treatment.
Oh you sick, No, we all sick, boss like and
that kind of thing. That kind of thing. I think
that makes perfect sense. And I think in a in
a very you know, if we really wanted to explore
this in terms of what it actually means, it just
(38:35):
shows the way that white supremacism sort of like seeps
into every facet of American culture and experience, right that,
like I think that hurting my own kind will be
my salvation. That doesn't make me a hero, but it
definitely makes it a more complicated, I guess villain than
(38:58):
we would want it to be. This is just this
person waking up with like deep seated hatred in their heart.
It truly is them thinking, Okay, if this means my survival,
I will learn to hate the people who move and
look like I do. Absolutely, and that's why I vote
Republican there, you know, to save me, save me, you know,
(39:22):
That's what Candaswe is my best friends. I always feel
like because I went to private school and I'm just
making up for lost time. I'm now on a kind
of like a rehabilitation program, just like trusting my own people,
loving my own people, love myself. That's usually what it is.
(39:43):
Because I went KME through twelve. Then I went to
private college, and then I was like I was just
trying to get like jobs, like kind of like trying
to be like the token this and that on the show,
you know what I'm saying. And then I was like,
because I was actually what happened was I had deep
seated racism, and so when I gave that up, so
are working with people like Larry one more and everything
like that, everything changed in my life you know, like, yeah,
(40:05):
I still got a white wife. But you know what
I'm saying, Hey, we can't all be perfect, you know perfect.
I mean that that came before. You know what I'm
but my kids are Dan brown, you know, like it's
it's it's good. I'm doing what I can. Man. I
think you talked a little bit about sort of the
Republicans and it it reminds me that I read an
(40:28):
article that talked about, you know, jed Ger Hoover has
his own film. Leo DiCaprio plays Jedger Hoover in the
Clint Eastwood portrayal of him, and one of the things
that the article talked about is that it delves heavily
this film into his closeted homosexuality, but conveniently skips over
his race. And one of the things that came to
(40:49):
mind as they they sort of addressed that is how
it's probably a lot easier still even today, for white
people to see him as saying but complex if he's closeted,
but much more challenging for them to have that same
sort of sense of his sanity and reasoning if he
(41:09):
is a a person struggling with his racial identity. M
because I don't think people, not a lot of white
people understand that, you know what I'm saying, because they don't,
you know, as they in their own words, they don't
have a culture. So look, you know, like they might
not understand what it's like to like they're like black
people haven't fine in this country, but they would never
change places with them. And so yeah, so the thought
(41:32):
is that you know, Hoover was like suffering from that,
you know, like probably because he was a man of
secrets too. If your whole life is just like secrets
and you got shit on everybody, he has shot JFK.
He knew about like l b J's, b J's, you know, everybody, everybody,
(41:53):
then you don't trust anybody, sure as hell, don't trust yourself.
And it's like I think that kind of toxic cocktail,
you know, like there's no way he would have ever
come out as someone like a man of color like
been you know, like really lived his truth and would
present it to his dying day that he was white
and trusted that he knew, he knew his demo in
(42:17):
his audience, He knew that his legacy would be like
if anything okay, then they'll probably say I'm you know,
gay for for Clive Toulson, and they won't say anything
else about me being black because people can't handle that ship.
You know. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. He truly
was like, and I think we continue to we the
(42:37):
royal we, the white devil continues to sort of pick
and choose what is conveniently okay for us to discover
about people and not. And it reminds me. We did
a mini episode about all of the various US presidents
who have been accused and are proven to have come Yeah,
(42:58):
it makes it you nigger, But they've been they've been
sort of like, uh, they've they've been aired out as
as black and or brown people or secretly having black
brown lineage. And they're six of them outside obviously of Obama,
who you know is the first one who came forward
(43:20):
and said it. But there's Thomas Jefferson, There's Abraham Lincoln, apparently,
Calvin Coolidge, Warren Harding, Dwight Alas Eisenhower in my personal favorite,
Andrew Jackson apparently comes definitely. But that's it's it's that
right where it's like you have all of these people
who his last name was Jackson, like Samuel l like Samuel,
(43:46):
you know, come on now, just saying you want to
see I want to see a portrait of his granddaddy.
You know. But that's the thing, right, is that, like, truly,
I think it was that his grandfather was a black
man and like and they could not deal with that,
and they refused to deal with that to this day.
And how healing might that be for a lot of
(44:09):
generations to know that that Andrew Jackson, who spent his
entire career doing horrible, malicious things to Native Americans and
black people and all kinds of people in this country,
was doing it out of a type of self hatred
and not just like an empowered position as a white
man doing white man ship in front of all his
(44:31):
other white friends. Right, he went extra sauce with it.
So that's what I'm saying. It's like, when you go
extra sauce, there's there's a chance that you just might
be what you hate. So you're saying, when I put
extra a one sauce on misteak, I might be a one. Absolutely,
(44:52):
it's gonna hit you right here right here. You wander
that extra guak you got. I love this, Jordan's this
is great this is this is a great conversation. We
I think we nailed it. I think we did all
the things. Could you tell that you've almost finished your
your drink, which is very exciting. Oh, we can always
(45:14):
get more. Now, you don't have to get more, not
on my account. Now, if you want to get drunk
while your kids are sleeping, that's a personal choice. Don't
make it my defication. I mean, I'm a great dad.
Never while they're awake, you know what, I'm sorry, Like,
just yeah, they just wait till their sleep, then you
go in their room and yeah, that's a good dad ship.
(45:39):
You know me too well, sir. Could you tell the
people at home where they can find you and what
you have going on? Absolutely, you can find me at
Jordan carloson Twitter. You can find me the realer Jordan
Carlos on Instagram, not like those fake ones. You know
what I'm saying. So those are great. Also, please once
once again, my show premiers in July, and that's that's
(46:01):
Everything's trash. It'll be on free Form and Hulu. Really
excited about that, and then you can catch me on
AMC Plus. Can we talk about this which is also
in the sun. That's channel really excited about that and
LANs you gotta come on and be my guest on that, man,
I would love that. That sounds amazing. So yeah, please
go check out all of that stuff for Jordan's and
follow him, and as always, you can follow me at
(46:21):
lankson Kerman and please subscribe to all the bullshit that
you're supposed to do the podcast so that we get
people to hear about this motherfucker. And I'm not just
speaking into a void. Huh. That wouldn't that be nice
if we can make this not avoid for everybody's experience.
I'm sure it's not. Man. Listen, you're beloved. People love you. Man.
(46:43):
I saw you have sex with that lady on I
thought you have sex with that lady. You're doing fine
well man, we didn't this. This was a fun one
by bitch because of the brons my crop chips in
(47:08):
your hands, Uncola bears are racist. They also player olsing
the money rsions and many turney stuff. I can't tell
me noth
Hosts And Creators
Langston Kerman
David Gborie
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.