Preparing for Birth, Midwifery, and How to Use Your Voice with Yuen Kwan Chan

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I know foe. Even when times getheart and you feel
you're in the cucy, just so beautiful laugh can be.
When you soph in your heart, you can finalist your

(00:29):
true seeous life. Hello everybody, welcome back. I'm so pumped
to finally bring you this episode with my midwife, Yen
of TLC Midwiffery. Let me just straight out the door
preface this by saying, prior to actually having birth at home,
I was the opposite of a home birth. I didn't
know what a midwife was. I didn't know the difference

(00:49):
between a midwife a doula. I didn't know one person
in my community or family that had had a home birth,
and I looked at it as a crazy dangerous thing
to do. I ended up having the most amazing prenatal
experience because of Midwiffery, and I ended up birthing my
daughter by myself. But my understanding about women's health, what

(01:11):
it is versus what it should be, has drastically shifted.
My hope in sharing this episode is that you leave
empowered and educated on topics that are typically discussed and
make us feel fearful around. To give you a little
bit of a backstory, I decided to have a home
birth because of two things. One, a voice within me
that just said, deliver at home. The second I got pregnant,

(01:34):
I heard that voice flash forward to actually giving birth,
and even if I had planned for a home a
hospital birth, I would have ended up giving birth at
home because of how fast my daughter came, And secondly,
because of the times. It was the peak of COVID
and the thought of being in a hospital, wearing a
mask during labor and having possibly my partner not there
was hugely terrifying for me. And when I really envisioned

(01:57):
like myself giving birth, I simply didn't see it in
a hospital. And it's only because I was able to
peel away the layers of fear by just being curious
that I shifted into being a home birth for this
birth that I had at least the second I opened
a book and started learning about midwiffery and everything about it.

(02:17):
The layers of fear just naturally peeled off because I
was being educated about so many things that are typically
not discussed or talked about with fear front and foremost,
and it became obvious to me that this is how
I was going to do it. My husband is a
doctor and he comes from the mindset too of home
births being dangerous. He evaluates risks of everything. He's the

(02:38):
least risky person of all time. And at first he
was like, wait, no, that's crazy, and the same thing
once he became educated, he was like, Wow, this does
feel really right for us. But we really did have
this like hard choice moment when it came down to
signing the papers with Yen to plan for a home birth,
where we had to sign off on all the risks
that it includes. This is just protocol of having a

(03:02):
home birth, at least within the state of New York,
I assume, and looking at the realities and the dangers
and signing off, I understand, I understand. I understand. Like
we quivered there for a moment like is this really
the best choice? And truth be told, there was not
a moment in our during my pregnancy that I was like, yes,
this is the best choice one hundred percent. I know
this is best and I never got cocky about it

(03:25):
for lack of a better word. Instead, we just didn't
share with our family and friends our planned They thought
that I was going through with a hospital birth, and
we stayed super connected to what we thought was going
to be best to us. Like it's such a noisy
time when it comes to birth, birth choices, people's opinions,
people's experiences, that we just shut everybody out and we
stayed in our lane. And I think that that's kind

(03:47):
of like the most important thing that you have to
do when it comes to your birth and your choices.
You need to feel safe. You need to feel secure,
You need to feel empowered to change your mind at
any point in time, and you need to feel like
you can ask questions a lot the way. My experience
with Yen was incredible because I felt so supported herd understood,
listened to everything. She educated me. Instead of just doing things,

(04:10):
she explained to me different options. We went over birth plans,
and along the way, she never made me feel badly
for any of the choices that I made, And that's
what truly stood out. Midwife are doing incredible work out there,
and when they work with obs and doctors, it's just magic.
I went through that recently when I ended up having
an ectopic pregnancy and Yen was the one to figure

(04:32):
out something was actually going wrong and sent me to
higher care and together they worked together and I just
felt like I've never felt before when it comes to
health and things going wrong. There's so much misunderstanding when
it comes to this conversation, and Yen beautifully and non
judgmentally clears it up. And what I love the most

(04:53):
about Yen is she doesn't come through this with like
I think, this idea that hospitals are bad or OB's bad.
She really resp backs what everybody is doing in the
birthing world, but she discusses it with education and empowerment,
and she just creates a safe place to really have
conversations where it doesn't feel like there's any space at all.

(05:14):
I love this episode, and all I ask is that
you listen with an open mind and open heart, because
you'll just come out with more information and that's what
all of us deserve when it comes to talking about birth.
Let's take a lesson. Hey n, welcome to the Truth
is Life. Hi me, Sam, how are you? I'm good.

(05:35):
It's been an interesting last few months. As you know,
you were a part of me finding out that I
had an eck topic pregnancy and just a great source
of support for me. And that is obviously like such
a different thing to say because oftentimes the healthcare provider
experience can be thorough but not necessarily compassionate, and I

(05:58):
always get that from you. Thank you again. I always
tell you you can always call me or check me.
An I know, when I found out that I was pregnant, surprise,
accidental pregnancy, I was like, well, at least I get
to see you in a lot more this year. Like that,
you know, that was the first sign of like I'm
going to get excited about this pregnant or my first
call as you know, and then really held my hand

(06:20):
as things meandered away from a viable pregnancy. So thank
you for that. We have separate podcasts on my birth
story so people know what happened that I was planning
a home birth but also seeing an ob and kind
of like figuring out what I felt more comfortable with.
But ultimately I did have a home birth and you
actually weren't there for it. So how many homebirth quick?

(06:44):
How many home births have you missed? I will say
less than one percent. And also usually if we kind
of know that you're going to have a faster labor,
which you're like not the norm, right, Bill, labor total
was like three hours and by the time you actually
call me You're ready pushing, and so it's hard. So

(07:07):
usually most of the time we will make kind of
our educated guests on like you know, if people are
a little bit further away, we'll will actually stay a
little closer or go to you a little earlier to
make sure that we're on top of you, guys, make
sure that you and baby feel safe and you don't
feel like you're alone. And then of course if we
know that now, then you have a fast history. You

(07:28):
know I'm going to be living right place you're feeling
a little itch, I'm coming. It was actually more of
a joke of a question. I thought that I was
the only browth that you had missed. But it sounds
like it does happen. I mean, like sometimes it happens that,
like you know, they thought that it wouldn't be that quick,
and then they call you a little bit later because
they didn't want to bother you. Which that's why I

(07:50):
always emphasize during my visit, please call me whenever you
feel anything that it's alive, ordinary. It doesn't matter how
early it is. It could just be like, oh I
just have bloody show where I just have some crams.
You could totally call me and I rather know, and
I could check in with you guys a little earlier
or after a couple of hours if nothing happened. Nothing happened,

(08:12):
but at least I'm aware. Usually surprises like when things
happen right at your calls. In this episode, I do
want to like really get into the nitty gritty of
midwiffery and midwife send duels and all of that. But
I think that's my favorite thing about you and midwiffery
and practice it. The whole topic is that it starts

(08:34):
to really chisel away that whitecoat syndrome that we have
with our healthcare providers. The whitecoat syndrome being that like
there's a very specific role that the patient has and
a very specific role that the provider has, and I
as a patient feel very intimidated by the doctor, so
I don't ask questions. And you said like people will say,
I didn't want to bother you too early, Like there

(08:55):
is this part of us that we hold as patients
that does not feel empowered and feels like afraid to
like ask something or put a hand out before we're
like positive that we need help. And I think that's
something that like all of our listeners, I want you
to really think about your relationships with your doctors or
healthcare providers in general, because you're never a bother, right,

(09:17):
like it's your health, it's not at all, and you're
not too with the doctor either, But we do have
this idea that like we are a little bit more
like subservient to the dominance of the medical industry. So
even with a midwife, somebody you know, might Now I
know that I didn't want to bother you too early,
like that's why you missed mine. Actually, if I'm really
thinking about it, is because I was under the impression

(09:39):
that your first birth is going to be really long.
So my first sign symptom that I could be in labor,
I was like, well, I've got twenty four hours ahead
of me, Like I'm not going to call her yet,
and yeah, so it's it's interesting, but why do you
think that my birth happened as quickly as it did.
You're definitely more of not the norm obviously. I told

(10:02):
you that usually the norm is like around twenty four hours,
and sometimes, like with good preparation, you can always get
less than twenty four hours. But I think that you
just prepare your birth really, really well, also right during
your pregnancy you did your research or do you exercise,
your hydrating and like giving your body like the proper nutrients.
That also helped you. But of course that under four

(10:25):
hours or three hours is what we call precipitive birth,
so you technically almost have one. You made it over
three hours, so it's not considered that, but technically after
like before three hours, it's actually called precipitive birth because
it's like very fast, and I think your body kind
of just like recognize it, and you might be having
like some early labor signs, but you weren't really paying

(10:48):
attention to it. Remember you text me a picture of like, oh,
you barely dropped, but like you have discharge, and I
was like, oh, all those things are good signs. And
then we were doing like our natural encouragement exercisers, right,
and you were super excited that you saw in your
first colossum. But then nipple stimulation remember about it, Yeah,
I remember it, and you're like, oh my god, I

(11:10):
do make milk. That was crazy, and you were so
excited about it, and all those things actually could make
your labor go much faster because a lot of times
we don't emphasize it. I guess it's not like one
hundred you know, scientific right, even though nipple simulation does
encourage naturally like our production of your hormone that help

(11:31):
you stimulate that oxytocin, but it doesn't always happen exactly.
It's not like a medication when you can measure right
that you can give to your body. So it's like
those natural methods have to simultaneously see happen and you
have to do it like you know, starting at thirty
seven weeks, and that will help your body get ready
for it. And I think your body was just ready.

(11:52):
That's why it happened so fast. I also ate dates.
I think it was two dates, like every day for
the last month, like a two date per day. That's
very late tea, you know. Yeah, maybe there's a lot
of myth about like eating spicy food and like eating
pineapple and doing other stuff. But sometimes it's just like

(12:12):
a combination of different things that you did, right. And
if I had any experience with like birth before, if
I had ever given birth before, I'm sure I would
have called you and been like it's coming soon. But
because I had zero idea of what to experience, like
I should have been tipped off by the intensity. I

(12:33):
have a pretty high pain tolerance, but things were intense
very fast. And I assume that somebody in a twenty
four hour labor situation, like the intensity isn't as intense
in the very beginning. I don't know if that's true.
Is that true? Yeah? So usually a lot of times
we read about like all these different labor pattern right,
some most common one is that you have bracks and

(12:56):
hakes and have early labor and then into like more
consistency and that require you to do some stimulation or
walking around why you're actually in labor or it would
just naturally pick up. But not a lot of people
just go like straight into every three minutes, you know, intense,
and I think your body is just involuntarily pushing and

(13:19):
dilating yourself, right because you really feel that pressure, and
that's like our instinct, our nature. And then also you
were with your husband, and you know, like you're in
your private space that you're comfortable with and being able
to allow to imagine if you had to run to
the hospital. Not saying that it's not a good idea
that people who plan hospital birth they should if that's

(13:42):
what they're comfortable with, but allowing your body to actually
labor also kind of help you get into that space
and allowing your body to labor the way it's supposed to, right,
And I mean, you and I are on the same page.
And Evan and I chose we interviewed many midwives before
we got really sited to work with you, and we
got excited because of your background in a hospital and

(14:06):
you are not like an extreme midwife that's like hospitals
are bad and you're very i think like moderate and
appropriate and still empowering people to make the best choices
for them. And that was really, you know, important to
us who were new to the idea. Evan had no
idea what a midwife was. You had never heard the

(14:26):
words midwiffery. I had just begun to like understand this.
So we love that you had that really like level
headed approach to the whole thing. But what was really
interesting that you said is like I called you when
I started pushing, and I really want everyone to know
that I did zero pushing. It was an involuntary reflex

(14:48):
because of, like you said, the pressure. And I'm seventeen
months out my baby solely seventeen months and I am
in absolute awe And I'm glad that we waited this
long to do the podcast, by the way, because I
think I was like too close to the event to
I don't know the process appreciate. I don't know everything,
but we just have this idea of what labor is

(15:10):
going to look like in our minds, oftentimes on our
back in the hospital gown, you know. And it was
nothing like that. It was over the toilet, bearing down
and zero pushing. Like my biggest fear growing up was like,
I really want kids, but I don't think I'll be
able to go through labor because it looks too hard.
And yeah, don't get me wrong, it's not easy. You're
pushed your absolute maximum point and it's the most involuntary thing,

(15:35):
which can be scary ish. But in my experience, I
didn't do anything like it happened through me. So I
didn't call you when I was pushing, Like I was like, okay,
I just come hear your voice different. I don't even
mean like you're actually we pushed it. I was like,
oh no, she sounds like she's actually grunting and sound
like she's pushing something. Yeah, it's like every contraction that

(15:57):
you have right, So I was like, oh, they definitely
need to run, and then we're like packed up to go,
and you know, we tried to come as quickly as possible,
and that's why I FaceTime Evan too in the whole time,
to make sure that we can at least support you
and in case that the baby flew out and maybe
to come out right before. And then we made it
for the placenta and after which was so important having

(16:21):
you for the placenta delivery and after care, being surrounded
by you and my dula and just like women, I
just felt so held having you there that I didn't
feel like you missed anything. And it was surprisingly really
nice to almost have like the most intimate important moment
of our life with nobody else there but us. Again, like,
I know that that's not going to be relevant to

(16:43):
most people listening. Most husbands, I've heard our partners would
pass out, is what I've kind of. I don't know
if that's true, but they rise to the occasion. Usually
a lot of times they always think that they will
want to stay in the back. They don't want to,
but I always see that they always see our expectation
and they do everything that they could. Of course they

(17:04):
will be anxious, that's kind of normal, and then they
will do the best that they can for their partner.
And I am always amazed how well they do even
though they claim that they will pass out or they
can't see blood. This question just came to me. I

(17:28):
wasn't going to ask you this, but I think it
would be really interesting to know the history of birthing
positions and like how it went down before modern medicine,
early civilizations. Was it done in the ocean? Is that where?
We just went to Florida and I was in the
ocean and I was like, I want to have a
baby in the ocean. This feels like how it was

(17:49):
meant to be done. I don't know where that thought
came from, but is there any history prehospitals? What was
the I think most people did it at home, whatever
their looks like, right, it could be by the village,
by the river, by anywhere. And then usually before pre hospital,
I think the transportation is not as closed, you know,

(18:11):
like you have a destignated like village kind of provider
or that could be midwives and doctors that like really
go up to you go know, the whole family take
care of generation and generation of birth in that particular
family and will come like and visit you and see
you and take care of you. You know. It's like
the intimacy of like getting to know not just you,

(18:33):
but like your mom, your grandma, your daughter, you know,
your cousin. You know. I think it's like a different
type of relationship before hospital. And of course, you know,
like people are like, oh, you know, before hospital coming
in there is more higher maternity and morbidity and mortality rate.
That's true because there might not be all these advanced

(18:54):
technology of prenatal care. You know, all these blood work
to tell us if there's a problem, all the saunograms
that could predict is their in congenital problems, what is
the baby's position, you know, like all these things that
could be avoid. That's why I love the technology. But
I also love with free care model where we're just

(19:14):
with women to empower them to trust their body, which
a lot of times sometimes the modern technology take that
away from us a little bit. So I feel like
it's a good chance for us, like when we actually
promote like miber free cares, not like we want people
to choose one way or the other to give birth.
It's just to understand your body, to trust your body,

(19:36):
and to labor the way you want to under the
healthy circumstances, right if your little rest, if you can
do it, and even if you choose to have the
birth in the hospital, try to prepare yourself because a
lot of times modern women we don't really just stay
home and have babies. We have to, like, you know,

(19:58):
go to work. We have to juggle between like a
bunch of things, being a daughter, being a mom, being
a sister, being everything, and being the bread winner, you know,
like income providers. So like there's a lot of roles
that we play now, and there's a lot more stress
that we have to deal with than just like, oh,
I'm going to just stay home to care of my kids,
take care of my family, which is also very difficult

(20:20):
just without working, but we have more stresses. So like
a lot of times we have clients that it's like, oh,
I'm just working till forty one week or forty week,
and because we don't have the maternity care after a
right postpartum, they postpartum times that they have it's like
six to eight weeks. That is just so shut you know,

(20:41):
in our United States and in other countries, like you
see in Canada, people are able to take like a
year off that's paid, you know, for their kids. So
it's like a different type of healthcare system. And we
try to encourage mom to be prepared a little bit
more instead of like trying to make the money or
save up the time or the post bottom. Hopefully they

(21:02):
will have a better birth by like preparing themselves mentally
and physically also for the birth right so they don't
get traumatized, because birth trauma is real, you know, like
and a lot of times it's not just because the
provider don't want to take care of you. Sometimes it's
just also the clients might not be educated in a

(21:23):
way where oh I didn't realize I have this choice,
or I didn't realize I could do this, or I
didn't actually spend any time looking up these stuff because
I thought, I just go to what my family recommend,
which is a norm right right now is the hospital,
and I would just like show up if I have
any cramps or discharge or anything, right instead of like, oh,

(21:45):
I know this is just normal early labor. I could
just wait it out, hydrate, eid walk, and then you know,
go into us with a little later, or you know,
call your midwife and you decided to have like a
home birth, or you know go to a birth things center.
One is appropriate, but you still need preparation. Any of
the setting birth setting that you choose, nothing is wrong

(22:07):
with either or any of them. Why do you think
people believe that home birth is so dangerous? You had
mentioned in the beginning of that sentence that having hospital
setting births have led to the decreased mortality of women
and babies during birth. Is that a factual sentence or
is there a lot more nuance to that. I think

(22:29):
it's a lot more complicated than just that, right, because
we do have a pretty high sea section rate considering
their way developed country, still in the thirty percent, and
all the hospital is trying to achieve to decrease that
and increase like our vaginal birth. But a lot of times,
you know, like when we try to support birth is

(22:49):
not just like it's just the right way or the
wrong way. We want to make sure that one it's
what the clients want, and the second is what around
the area of what is offered, what is available. Right,
even if they want a homeboard, they might not have
that choice in the area that they live in. It
doesn't make sense or like if they want like a

(23:10):
hospital birth if they're really really far away, sometimes they
want not even get there. But they have a lot
of our hospital accidents too, so I feel like there's
just like a lot of different factor that we have
to look into. It's not like very straightforward all the time.
But of course, like you know, I always say, like

(23:31):
balance is good. It's like a team effort. It's not
just the responsibility of the hospital. Is not just the
responsibility of the midwife. It's also the responsibility of the
client knowing that they could do their research and understand
their body really take care of themselves also, and of
course it's our job to take care of them too,

(23:51):
you know, to provide the best service that we can
in no matter hospital and out of hospital settings, and
we want them obviously, we never want back outcomes, but
even in like ala hospital or in hospital sending, sometimes
it's just unavoidable. I really appreciated that you had suggested

(24:11):
hypno birthing for me, and hypno birthing if you're not familiar,
we can do a whole other episode on that, but
it helped me so much during labor, but beyond that,
it helped me understand the phases of labor, and I
felt very empowered, like understanding what was happening anatomically to
my body during birth labor, like I had some understanding

(24:33):
and I had something to really like anchor into having
like mantras and like each breath. I think it was
like each breath brings me closer to my baby. And
I just really love that your background is not just
in midwiffery, you have a nurse background as well, right, Yeah,
I worked in nick Q. That's where my original background is.
And simultaneously I just had my we Were Free degree

(24:56):
while I was working in nick Q. And I always
love the pregnancy process ever since I was little. I
always love hearing stories of my mom kind of telling
me how my sister and siblings are born. You know
that that is the initial spike of my interests of like,
I know, I love babies about but I just like

(25:17):
don't really fully comprehend how does it come out, you know,
because obviously as a kid, you don't know. You just
kind of they just show up. And I was, you know,
born and raised in Hong Kong, So in Hong Kong,
it's like under UK rule when I was born, so
originally usually the first kid were born in hospital and

(25:38):
the rest of the kids usually are born in the
birthing center. And a lot of times they also have
choices of like home birth, a hospital birth, and birthing
center is quite common. Like you can choose any and
every one of them, you know, like if you feel
like and usually the midwife you know, take care of
all the normals and then if there's any complication then

(25:59):
the old be stepped in. But it's a very good
collaborative relationship in the UK. And I feel like I
learned a lot, you know, when I go visit and
then when I go visit my cousins and stuff like that,
now hear the story and even though I haven't seen
her since I was ten, and end up like both
of us became nurses. What type of nurse were you

(26:20):
or are you? For me? I'm actually an r and
like a BSN so Bachelor of Nursing and we were
free is a master degree. And then I also have
my doctorate. Oh yeah, well so do every midwife have
that background? Not every midwife. Usually midwife like they have
three different types. They have CPMs, which is like I

(26:44):
think licensed midwife, and they followed like a curriculum and
they take a different board called MEAN and then usually
what they do is that like they are considered a
licensed midwife, but they're not m there's restriction on like
prescripts or you know, like giving medications. And the other
two types are like you know, CMS and CNM, and

(27:07):
mine is CNM, which is like a certified Nurse midwife,
and then there's also Certiinified Midwife. Basically it's like Austin
leg except I just have a nursing background, but they're
all very well trained and they usually have a lot
of like birth before we can actually graduate. And then
of course, like CNM, we mainly do our rotation through hospitals,

(27:30):
and in my background, I actually did all hospital actually rotation.
It's only after I graduate then I went into I
always want to explore different options, just to like seeing
how birth can be different, you know, because you hear stories.
But then it's so hard in New York City to
find a birthing center. So at that time, Oakland Birthing

(27:52):
Center is like the only birthing center available, so I
kind of I also worked part time in that location
just to explore like al of hospital birth, and simultaneously
I might help like some homebird midwife and or like
shadow some homebird midwife to make sure that like I
kind of get a hang of that too, because a

(28:13):
lot of times when you only train in a hospital,
that's all you will know. Right, as a provider, it
is totally normal to be afraid of like what we
don't know? What is better than just learning at firsthand
and learning to see, hey, how do they all like work,
and so we can work better as a team. I'm

(28:33):
kind of approaching this as or trying my best to
approach it in the place that I was right before
I got pregnant, which is I didn't even know what
a midwife is. So is there a definition for what
a midwife is? Is there a definition for what a

(28:57):
midwife is? It actually means with women? That's what the
words actually mean with that, right, Yeah, okay, so that
is exactly what it means, that we're there with women
and ware there's for women. But what would be the
differentiators of a midwife versus doctor? Despite obviously the medical
degree and all of the medical degree, and of course

(29:19):
we don't deal with like high risks pregnancies, and we
don't deal with like all these complications on like pathological
things that could happen and pregnancy even though we are
aware of it. We know of it, but we also
know that, like the doctors are trained to handle the situations,
and we do trust the ability to do these like

(29:39):
and handle the situations. Of course, they also like no
normal births, right, but we don't do any c sections.
We don't like you know, take care of like people
that are like super high risks that have like a
lot of like medical problems. So those we should like
refer to like the doctors to see to make sure
that they have good care. And what about midwife versadula?

(30:01):
And now I'm very comfortable with this language, but in
the beginning I really wasn't what is adula. It's a
trained birth support person and DULA doesn't have to be licensed,
but of course a lot of dulas is licensed. You
could say that, like my mom is my DULA. She
could take a course and like you know, get license

(30:23):
for it, because one of my client did that and
the mom actually want to know more and to how
to support her daughter and did the DULA training. They
have to go through birth. They have to see and
support and learn how to do the right thing for
the mom and learn the different stages of labor. They like,
you know, really study birth and then anatomy of like,

(30:47):
you know, what is its supposed to happen? Was normal?
Was not normal? But of course it's not a medical degree,
so they technically cannot, like you know, check on the baby.
Sometimes if they experienced, they will be able to tell
or like you see signs, and a lot of times
I work with amazing duelas and they will be able
to tell and be like, oh, you know, I think

(31:08):
she's very active. Just come now, you know, even though
I might not even talk to you the client yet,
they were there already. And I usually always keep in
touch with my DULA to make sure that we work
as a team, and we will meet them before prenatal,
during prenato, so we can actually know exactly what we're expecting,

(31:29):
what the client are expecting, and what we want to
do and how we could communicate better during the labor process.
So usually this is what we want to do. I
loved having a midwife and adula. I felt obviously supported
before during over the phone, and then after having both

(31:50):
of you there. I felt so supportive. But I am
very passionate that no matter what type of birth you
are considering having home, birthing center or hospital, that you
do have a DULA. I'd even probably say it's most
important in a hospital because that's the place that we
lose our voice, and your DULA can be your advocate.
You spend so much time with them going over what

(32:12):
your wants and non wants are, and even if you
change your mind, that's totally fine in the hospital, whether
that's to have an epidural or not. In either of
those directions, you decide not to have it, and you
have it. You decide to have it, and then you're like,
I don't want it, but it's very Hospitals are very
disorienting for me, and like voice losing, so even if
I know what I want it, like that white coat syndrome,

(32:33):
it's so hard to speak up and to understand what
they're saying. Medicine is a completely different language. So having
like almost an interpreter there to help and slow down
a lot of what feels very urgent, that's something that
I think DULA work is just really really important. I
always suggest all my moms to like every woman deserve

(32:53):
and dula. Yeah, you know, I mean, of course we
always want to say any woman deserve and a wife too. Yeah,
but you know, it really depends on what the client's
comfortable with and if they are high risks, they should
see a doctor. But of course, you know, like we
will be their submidwife that works in the hospital that
could co manage clients like that too, so you can

(33:14):
always see a midwife. Yeah, there's there's so much that
isn't black and white that I thought was just because
you have a midwife doesn't mean that you have a
home birth. Where I live, the closest hospital at least
at the time of my birth, things might have changed,
doesn't allow for midwives to deliver. So for me, my
best option was a home birth in order to work
with a midwife. And also there are no birthing centers

(33:36):
by me, I think if I lived somewhere where there
were birthing centers, that would have been like the best
idea for me is somebody that didn't know anything because
in a birth setting and a sorry, in a birthing center,
you have all the supplies and everything ready for some
for emergencies. Is that correct? Yeah, but usually in the
home birth, we also bring like similar supply to their birth,

(33:57):
but the only difference usually a lot of time, it's
like you said, if you live close to a birthing center,
sometimes first time parents, and we're like so used to
the idea that you have to go somewhere for birth,
Like we're so used to like we had to like,
why why are we doing it at home? That is
totally normal, that's like ninety nine percent of the people.

(34:19):
But then afterward they were like, oh, yeah, I would
go to a birthing center, and home birth is more
like of course, if you're in safe and babies like healthy,
everything was normal during your pregnancy, then home is actually
like a more relaxing and you don't actually have to
go anywhere because imagine trying to travel when you enacted
later that was hard. I did that, Yeah, but that

(34:40):
was hard. We're going to talk about your labor that's
coming up soon. Yeah. There's so much that is nuanced
in these conversations, and I just hope people leave this
short conversation knowing that there are various options, and most importantly,
that you can change your mind at any time about
anything related to your or specific birth in the beginning,

(35:02):
you mentioned the word birth trauma, and maybe you could
just touch on what birth trauma is because a lot
of people might be holding that and not know that
there's validation to it, and maybe they can begin working
through that if they understand what it is. I think
birth trauma is just any event that happens during your
birth process or prenatal care that you feel like your

(35:26):
opinion or your personal spaces being violated. A lot of times,
it doesn't mean some bad outcomes happened. It could just
be like a normal birth, like in a hospital. Some
people will feel that they're traumatized because they don't feel heard,
like they feel like, oh, they push into a certain situation,
but they don't really fully understand what happened and why

(35:49):
are they there, And a lot of times it just
comes in as provided we have to just like better
explain and have more compassion and you know, patient to
explain to the clients, like what is going on, because
it is a very scary things when you are in
a hospital and you're full of all these great professionals,

(36:10):
but you don't know anything about health care and you
just a mother wanting to just give birth safely and
want to, you know, like hopefully get through it because
it hurts. And then like you know, someone just tell
them like what to do, and then suddenly like ten
people rush in and say, oh, something is wrong, we
have to go to a C section, but like they

(36:31):
don't know what's going on. Sometimes it's like very shocking
to individuals, Like it's hard to process, you know. And
sometimes most people would just accept it just because they're like, Okay,
it's better for my baby. But then afterwards when they
have time to think back and they're like, oh, what
did that, Why did that happen? And then of course

(36:52):
sometimes they do a little bit more research and then
they realize, oh, I should have asked this, or I
should have stood up for myself self about this, or
I should have questioned this. But a lot of times
it's also like, you know, like how we could also
educate our south, right, there's like different things that we
can do to empower ourselves during birth also, so you

(37:12):
can ask the right question to make sure that like
you totally understand, you know, things are done into your body,
so you don't feel like, oh, you know, I did
not ask that and you regret that you didn't do it.
You know, but at the moment a lot of us
wouldn't even think about it. Can we talk about epidurals
a little bit? I say this, I think everybody needs
to have the birth that they need to have to

(37:34):
feel the safest exactly and remove the fear. That's really important.
I never thought twice about not having an epidural, meaning
I grew up always being like, I'll have an epidural
in the hospital whatever. When I started learning about epidurals,
and I don't want to say anything incorrectly here, but
my memory very much remembers being like, wait a second,
I don't want an epidural if it's going to do this.

(37:55):
That light bulb went off for me and I never
really looked back from that moment. And I remember learning
that epidural can well obviously block you from the pain, right,
but then disconnect you from what your body needs to do.
And I was like, wait, I don't want to do
anything to interrupt this process. Do you think that I

(38:15):
don't want to make it a loaded question or pointed?
Do you think that epidurals can result in more c sections?
Because if you are not feeling the sensations, you're not pushing,
and then more things can go wrong if the baby
wants to get out but it's not getting out, therefore
you have to move quickly. Is that Is there any

(38:35):
truth to that sentence? I don't think so, because like
everything else is a combination. Is the whole picture, right,
It's not just because of EVERYDOORO. Right. We will want
to point fingers like, don't have the epidural because every
door is bad. It's not because some people need their
pidural to help them relax in order to fully dialing,
because they just say, cannot relax enough, you know, to progress.

(38:58):
And sometimes the epidoural sate like bimbing off the wall,
and they're not really like, you know, like you taking
the Hymno birthing class. They're like, I'm not prepared for
this mentally. Even if I am prepared, I didn't know
how I would react when I feel that sensation. Right,
It's totally normal. And I always say, don't feel guilty

(39:18):
if you want to use it, but don't choose it
because you're afraid of what you don't know, right, Like
how we always say don't choose the birth because you're afraid.
Don't get a c section because you're afraid, but if
you need it, it's there and you should use it.
Don't say no just because you think that's bad. But

(39:41):
you need what you need. And that's why it's the
great things that we have the technology. But also at
the same time we're trying to empower your body and
mind to make sure that we have a great balance
in this world instead of like just saying this is
bad and that is good. No, it's not. But of
course if we ever overuse certain things, right, we're overly afraid.

(40:03):
We overly emphasize, like you have to do it this way.
If not, then it's a wrong way. Then that's not good. Agree, right,
Because not all women's are the same. Every one of
us are individual. That's why we emphasize an individual care
and we want to get to know you as an
individual person instead of like just a woman going through labor.

(40:27):
You know, you have to fit that profile, but not
everybody fit that profile. Not everybody can dilate and make
changes every three hours. But unfortunately, sometimes that is kind
of like a standard care where you know, like you
get check and that's something that they will do in
the hospital, and sometimes you have provider that will give
you more time. You know, depends on the comfort level,

(40:50):
the training background, and like they believe also and on
top of like they have to also a buy buy
like hospital protocoll and things that they need to searchery
hospital protocol. So it's like a lot of different level
of stuff. It's like really hard to say, but I
think as a woman that I always encourage anyone who

(41:12):
are planning to be pregnant or pregnant she just like
do their research and really like do a little soul
searching and see really what sits well with you. Right,
Obviously there's different choices, but sometimes, like you know, the
choice that you want might not be something that is
available to you, but doesn't mean that you cannot ask questions.
You can still ask questions, ask your doctor, ask your midwives,

(41:35):
you know, ask your friends. I love that you said
soul searching because when I was pregnant, I really got
like the download of like Homebirth, and that was that,
and like I just move forward with it very mentally.
But I always said, in my next birth, like I'm
going to listen to what comes up too, because for
whatever reason, you know, I now know why I got
that download. She was born at home and even if

(41:55):
I had planned a hospital birth, I wouldn't have made
it there, right, So that's that's where that came from.
But next time, you know, there could be a complication,
and if I listen to myself, maybe something else will
come up. Who knows, a lot of people do say

(42:18):
I had to have an emergency C section, so thank
god I was in a hospital. What are your thoughts
on this? Are all emergency c sections really emergencies? What's
kind of going on in the hospital that results in
those situations? I can't speak to all, but a lot
of times the emergency could be prevented. We do hear stories.

(42:43):
I'm just saying based on my knowledge, not saying overall
that we see cases where you know, like the birth
became an emergency when like the baby didn't tolerate the
petosa induction. What does the petosa do again? The pittosa oxytocin.
It's like a medication and that they use in your
IV to help you induce your labor or arm in

(43:05):
your labor. If like your labor is not consistent or
you're being dues, then that's usually one of the medication
that they will use in the hospital to help you
dialate your face. So sometimes baby just don't tolerate it,
like my baby didn't tolerate I don't know. Okay, So
let's actually move into your pregnancy. So Vienna and I
were pregnant at the same time, which was really fun

(43:27):
and interesting and bonding for me at least, not huh
me too. Did being pregnant change your opinion on birth?
And can you share a bit of your birth story
if you're comfortable, just because it is unique that you
did not end up having a home birth as a
midwife who does home birth. So me and my husband

(43:48):
actually went through like a pretty long getting to pregnant journey.
I wouldn't bought you guys with that. How old are you?
Thirty nine? Okay? I just feel like some people might
think that you, first of all, you look much younger,
but that a lot of people really think that you
can't get pregnant thirty nine and forty. Yeah, So it's
not that I can't, It's just that every time I'm
emulating I have a birth, I suppo that my birth

(44:12):
always hijacked and you're attending a birth pregnancy. But I
love it. I mean, like I'm passionate about my birth
so they make me happy. Sometimes I'm just too tire afterwards,
I just have to specify that you mean attending a
birth of a patient, not that your patient, Yeah, exactly.
And then also like getting back on debt, like I'm
thirty nine. And then I did, like, you know, do

(44:34):
the journey. I try like for three years actually before
I have my pregnancy that you know of, and before
that I did have doubt too, you know, like it's
as a stressful in churning. And then I did see
like an infertility doctor. Actually he's my chief, and he
will tell me also like because of your age and

(44:54):
even if you do IVF, which is better, that you
only have sixty percent success, right, And I was like, wow,
I'm only like thirty six or thirty seven at that time,
and I don't feel that at all. And I could
imagine like what people go through if they actually have
to go through ibia, which you know my sister did.
But I, luckily, right before I decided that if I

(45:16):
don't get pregnant by this month, I did give myself
like a deadline after three years of trying naturally, if
it didn't happen, then I will see the IVF doctor,
which is also my chief from pass work experience, so
he was great, But at the same time, I was like,
do I really want to go to that. It's like
a lot of things that you have to put in

(45:37):
your body, so I was really avoiding it. So I'm
just lucky that I actually got pregnant before and then
after that it was just a lot of people will
tell me because I'm a home bred mid wife, and
especially the dads, they would joke with me and say,
you're home bur midwife, You're planning a home birthway And
I was like, yeah, I mean, like I would try.

(45:59):
I don't see why add as long as like you
know everything it's fine, then you know, me and babies
are okay. And that's what I usually always tell my
clients too. It's like a song as everything points to
like you can try, you can you know, and of
course you know, we have emergency hospital transfer planned installed
and like my stable hospital transfer plan, like we always,

(46:22):
like you know, talk about it every birth to make
sure that, like you know, we'd all assume when you
plan at homebirth is a guarantee home birth. It is not.
It just means that you're going to have a support
team that comes to you when you're an active labor
to make sure that I use safe to continue or
if you need to, I rush you to us on
the first thing, and I'll give report to make sure

(46:43):
that in most cases safe baby and safe maw. In
my next pregnancy, I'll be high risk simply because I
will be above thirty five. I was thirty three or
thirty four my last, and putting you at that high
risk category, I'm just curious. Do first of all, do
you accept patients over thirty five? I do, and we

(47:04):
just take evident based precautions, right. We want to make
sure that, like you know, your pregnancy is as healthy
as it is. We look at all the numbers, We
look at you and your physical and mental preparation. It's
not about just your number in each But of course
there is higher risk when it's like Evan's maternal age.

(47:25):
So we do give our proper counseling and make sure
that you know, you see the MFM and you do
your sonograms that you're supposed to, you know, starting at
thirty three, we'd we suggest that you know, but of
course you know, like sometimes people might want to refuse,
but we will explain to you why those sonograms are
necessary just to you know, give you a safety net

(47:47):
to make sure that like, hey, everything is okay and
we can continue, not just oh, we're going to just
hop into this blindly and say okay, you should be fine. No,
you'll take proper precautions to make sure. And of course
if things point out that you need to be in
the hospital or you need to be transferred to more
a high risk category than you would, but you don't

(48:09):
automatically get categorized technically on the high risk. You're more
like what we call risks if they call it, like
you know, advanced maternal age. It's just an age, right.
I have people that perform better when they were like
in their late thirties with the second kid, then ten
years ago when they have the first kid at the twenties. Okay,

(48:31):
So back to your story. You were planning for a
home birth. Yeah, so that I kind of didn't listen
to my advice about getting ready because I was working,
so I was twenty one, so I was a bad patient.
But I also promised this mom that I will be
there for her. And my due date was September twenty

(48:53):
one like that song, and her due date was September twelve,
and I really want to support her and her birth
because she was really alone and she didn't really have
the financial and things to support her. And I said, hopefully,
please make sure that you don't deliver after me, or
like if I could, I will still be there, but

(49:15):
of course we have backup plan in case I can't
go there, another midwife will go in my place, but
I will prefer to go for her also because she's
also in the Asian community and she speak Chinese, which
is my native language. So I feel like sometimes it's
important for her to feel like someone you know from

(49:36):
her culture take care of her also, you know, when
she's alone and not really having much support. Walking into
your office, I felt like, you do really care for
people that do not necessarily have financial means, And I
don't know if that means making different arrangements for them,
but it felt like such a community place. I loved it, yeah,
and I want to create it, this safe place where

(49:59):
people to come, even if like sometimes I might not
be able to take care of them, to get the
information that they need or to find someone that can
actually take care of them better. Sometimes that's just all
they need. It's just someone to tell them, like, how
can I prepare myself, you know, even for hospital birth,
even if it's not my client. You know, just to
get ready for your birth and for your baby, right

(50:23):
how to prepare for your postpone um because sometimes we
spend ninety nine percent of our energy on the birth
and then after the birth came out, it's like, what
the hell am I going to do with this baby
that was me? But I interrupted you for the second time,
I'm not going to do it again. Okay, So you
told this woman that you're going to work with her,
who her due date was before yours? What ended up happening, Yeah,

(50:52):
like literally ten days before mine. So she finally like
she did deliver around her due date, and I was
free to go, and I was a will to get
some help to help me in the office. But I
still have a last minute case that I have to
deal with. So who would back at forty one week
just to take care of this newborn baby that my
friend refer him over to like do a more holistic circumcision.

(51:16):
So because if not, they will have to wait a
month at least before I can come back to take
care of them. Because I'm trying to do that thirty
days postpotum resting if I can. But during my labor,
I was like forty one and three and I was
still not really having anything. But during all my labors,
starting at thirty seven weeks, I was already having bracks

(51:38):
and hicks for some reason. Once I was done with work,
then the baby is like, oh, I can rest now,
I don't need to like nudge mommy to come early.
So I feel nothing but like a couple of days,
so I was like, oh cool, I'm gonna just like relax.
But then after an inch into like forty one week
and three days, and of course I do have like

(51:59):
weekly anograms myself because of my age, and I do
believe in it. I just want to make sure, like
my standpoint, I'm okay with like doing all these sonograms,
but at the end of my pregnancy, just to make
sure that fluid's okay, placenta is okay, my baby's not
like too big, too small, whatever it is. Even though
I can check, I try not to be midwife to myself.

(52:22):
I tried to like just go through the system of
like I would just enjoy the pregnancy as a client,
as a mom to be and be on the other side.
So basically everything was checked out fine, and I started
to do the induction cocktail, which I always tell clients
maybe they could try when they posts forty one week,
which is like the cash or oil cocktail that I

(52:44):
usually give you guys if your post date. And I
drink that it was not bad. That's why I could
tell people it doesn't take me at all, because it's
like a combination of like apricot juice, almond butter, you know,
like it's a specific cocktail. And of course I started cramping.
I was like within twelve hours after I drinked it.

(53:04):
And then I started like you know, pumping, doing modern
natural stuff that we're supposed to do, and then things
start to pick up. But I did break my water
a little early, you know, like in the earlier phase
of my labor. But the baby sounds great. It was
clear everything was okay. So I continued to labor at home,
and I think it was like our twenty four or

(53:27):
twenty eight, and I asked my my wife to you know,
a couple were in check to see if I made
any progress. So I was only three centimeter at that time,
and because at that time they also saw like a
little maconium stain, I think it will be a good
call to go to the hospital. That just means the

(53:47):
baby pooped inside, And sometimes it doesn't mean anything, you know,
like you could still continue to labor as so long
as you're progressing. But I in my contraction just wouldn't
get to the point where I think is consistent enough
because it's still kind of like it's strong, but it's
not super regular. It's not like every truth to do

(54:08):
in minute. It's kind of like sometimes five minutes, sometimes
doing minutes, so you know, like it's still kind of
could spread out if I don't move around. So I
feel like it's a good time to you know, like
go to the hospital to get a little medication help,
because I also believe in that when I actually take
care of my client, I want to buy everyone the

(54:28):
best outcome. Right, if I send you in the hospital
too late, then might also guarantee your C section. I'd
rather send them in when they could get a little
extra help that cannot be helped at home, so you
can have a badge, real birth and you can always
come back to me. So that's what I want, you know,
My goal is for all my clients to make sure

(54:49):
that they have the best care in general. Of course
they have to understand the reason why we transfer, And
of course we always discussed about like, oh, you know,
if you want to try one or two more hours
or so, babies doing well and you're good, you can
And of course my midwife, my friend, she's willing to
support me in whatever way I choose. And I just

(55:11):
made the decision with her, and we decided, let's just
go to the hospital so I could get a little
bit tostin to help me with the contractions, to get
it more regular, and hopefully we can dilate faster without
like because you can't anticipate how long will it take
for you from three centimeters to ten It could be

(55:32):
another three hours, so it could be another twenty hours,
you know. So it's kind of like one of those
I was like, it's great when it's fast, but of
course it's hard to process right when things happen so fast.
But most of the time it's like pretty long. And
I was still great because I was able to drink,
I was able to eat. But I don't really regret
my choice, and I don't regret going to hospital. I

(55:55):
don't regret trying to try at home. It's because I
chose this right and I was still able to eat
and drink and experience the bird choices that I chose right.
Because people are like, are you traumatized? Like do you
regret making the choice? Are you sad that end up
being a c section? Because I did have a c
section because my kid not tolerate the medication at all.

(56:17):
So you got the pots in the pit of what
but just the loest pit you can get. My kid
was like, oh no, I don't like it at all.
And the hospital was great. They took care of me.
They tried the best, you know, like they saw that
he had deesel, I have the oxygen and then they
stopped the medication and for a little bit and they

(56:39):
tried again to restart. But my kid just won't like it.
I don't like it at all. And that happens. And
that's why sometimes people plan induction or like, you know,
eighty percent of the time the induction will work perfectly fine,
no problem, and sometimes you have like these individual kids
like mine that it's like, oh, I don't like it
at all, but at least my mind I kind of

(57:01):
know that I try my best laboring as much as
I can, and I don't regret it. And of course,
like you know, next time, I'll be like, maybe I
should exercise a little bit more, or like you know,
take off a little bit earlier, whatever should Maybe that
will change some outcome, but like I will prepare myself
a little bit better also, you know, because that's why

(57:23):
we always tell them, I don't work to last minute,
because mentally you are also stressing. Even though it might
not be a stressful job, but you're mentally not really
in your body to prepare for your birth. That is
not the only reason why my labor didn't go the
way that I want. But I always have a backup
plan in my head and that's why I always are okay,

(57:45):
you know, like I'm not traumatized by that because we
talked about it, and I as a midwife, I'm I
love the hospital, I love the birthing center, and I
love home birth, so like I know that, like, hey,
if I need the hospital, they're there to support me.
And they did. We went to the mommodity and they
were great. All the nurses are super nice. How we're

(58:06):
like just chatting. And I did have the paturel because
I had a lot of back labor. The baby was
just in a weird position. It was really really low,
but it's not an emergency sefection, and it was just
that the baby couldn't tolerate, you know, the patulsan. So
we went in for c section because after a couple
of hours, I went in midnight and by ten am,

(58:27):
nothing is happening and nothing change and they have to
stop and start the medication and that's the only thing
that they could do to help me with the contraction.
They did the best that they can too, So under
their circumstances, the next choice is C section and that
is fine. And probably because I also know hospital and
know like how hospital functions and like the reasons behind

(58:50):
all the policy and procedure, I totally understand that it's
the next step. So like for me, it's just probably
easier to understand, like, you know, what is happening. Some
client might be very confused, and like half the time
would you hear stories like you know, people come back
and say, I don't know why this is done, but
I think it is this, this, this, But I was like,

(59:10):
are you sure that is why they actually did this?
I doesn't sound right, but you know, like, sometimes it's
also good to like learn about your birth and you
can always get your medical record records you understand, like hey,
what happened, or just like you know, so you have
a record for your next birth. That's all. I always

(59:32):
think that it's like a learning experience for everyone, and
for me, it's a learning experience on the client side, right,
because then now I know what a C section feels like,
and it's a lot more pressure than what I usually,
like I could see that we like because I do
first assist in the hospital when I worked in a hospital,
So it is a lot more pressure than a lot

(59:54):
of time, Like I might underplay it a little, you know,
because you're never on that side, and obviously people are like,
oh do you need to be on that side to
like tell the story. Sometimes you could tell a better
story and describe and prepare the client a little bit
better because you went through that problem. And sometimes, like
going through the hospital, A lot of times people complain
about the postponem like people waking them up every couple

(01:00:16):
of hours down Oh god, this totally true. I didn't
have that experience, but I can, like, I mean, as
they complain about that, But usually the nurses are like
amazing and nice. They like, you know, chit chat with
you and want to um, you know, like make sure
that you're well rested and well taken care of. In
my case, my baby also went to nick you because

(01:00:38):
you know, my water broke for a while, so they
actually want to keep the baby for observation, so he's
like a big old baby doing nothing and separated from me.
So that one, I will say, was a little frustrating
to me because of it's like a hospital policy and
they have to monitor the baby. I totally get it,
but if they're doing nothing, it's just like the policy

(01:01:01):
can't be bent according to the individual right. They have
to do it this way. That's what policy is for.
So that is the only downfall. But on my after birth,
I was like great, I was totally fine. And then
afterwards just the feeling of that you separated from your
baby and you only saw him for like a few
seconds and then he's already shipped out. So for me,

(01:01:24):
I just did the hand expression and I was like,
that's the only thing I feel like I could do
for him, and they keep me distracted, so I don't
feel sad that I don't have my baby right away,
and I finally get to see him for the first
time after twelve hours, even though they were saying that
maybe twenty four hours, and I was like, I can't
wait twenty four hours because after c section, if people

(01:01:44):
don't know, you do get like, you know, numb right
from the epidor and then you have a catheter because
you can't feel to peace, so you have to empty
out your bladder, so they put a cap in you
and usually see after c section, the earliest thing you
can request to remove the catheter is twelve hours after
and then you know when you have a catheter, and

(01:02:05):
after surgery, they don't suggest you moving, so they move
you to like a postpontom unit until you can actually,
you know, prove that you can p after the cather.
So I was on the clock. I was telling the nurse, okay,
ten pm. I definitely made a fuss on the postpont
It was like, why it's so much to go through

(01:02:26):
all that and then be separated from your baby. I
didn't even realize that. And I just learned so much
in those last like thirty seconds of you describing a
C section. I didn't know about the catheter, like three
weeks after my labor vaginal labor, I couldn't walk. Remember,
I had to come check to see if like there
was some sort of a hidden tear. Anyway, my point
is that like when I couldn't walk for three weeks

(01:02:48):
and it stung so bad to p I was like
a C section would have been easier. But in hearing
what you're saying, no type of birth is easier than another.
They each come with they all come with something. I mean,
it's not all the time. When you have a vaginal work,
you will have like these problems in some combination of everything.
So like I went at twelve hour twelve, but luckily

(01:03:09):
my kid lads really well, so he doesn't actually have
to stay and make you for more than like twenty
four hours, So I was happy. How do we think
about Yes, even though I was, you know, pregnant recently
and saw Yen. I have seen her before this because
she comes to do my well woman's visit at my home.
So I get a PAP smear at home with Yen,
and it's like it's incredible, It's I'm just game changing.

(01:03:32):
Can you tell people a little bit about what people
come to you for outside of just midwiffery outside of
being pregnant, yeah, than in pregnancy, like usually usimate why
we can take care of women in general, like we
do well women visits. We can take care of you
if you're not feeling well. We can take care of
like people to have period problems to like menopause. So

(01:03:55):
like we have a wild range of people from like
fourteen sixteen to like eighty. I have clients that comes
to me because she's eighty years old and she followed
me from another practice and came because she had a
history of like you do and prolast because of age.
So she she need like a support called pastory. So

(01:04:16):
like the support actually helpful to you is in place
without actually going through surgery. Because she was like, I'm eighty,
why would I want to go through surgery. I mean
like if you fix it, it's still like recovery time.
It's like one of those aunties that like I love.
So I go to her actually because originally she even
like paid, but she thought her and her cute little

(01:04:39):
husband will come to my office and every three months
to do a pastory clean because like I do teach them.
So I was like, you know, so you don't have
to waste money, you know, to come see me. I
will teach to your husband how to clean it. But
then they're like no, no, no, no, no, I just
want to come to you. I don't. Well, it's okay.
You know. Luckily they live quite close to me, so

(01:05:00):
even if they don't, I probably will still go to
their home because you know, like they like a very
cute couple and I could drive. I'm still young, so
I go to them every three months to do the
pastory change and then like chit chat and you know,
like about her health in general. You know, she have diabetes,
but she loved to eat, so talk to her. It's like, yeah,

(01:05:22):
you can't have these breads and that much, and she'll
go over stuff with me. I think she just feel
a little less pressured compared to her traditional doctor, which
I think she's great, awesome, but in general, because you
don't go see your doctor all the time, sometimes it's
always good to have someone to like just call and say, hey,

(01:05:43):
what's this. You know, it's just normal. And then like
you know, sometimes she'll randomly text me, oh, no, I
don't know if I want to check my sugar because
it's like so high. And then I had to kind
of lecture her look like her daughter and say, did
you just eat this? Sister? Cis this? Did she eat that?
You know that you're not supposed to, but she's any

(01:06:04):
you know, and you have to enjoy life even though
you know that sometimes, hey, us a diabetic, you might
not be able to eat all these things. It's the
same thing in pregnancy, like it's you don't need a
perfect pregnancy, but you just need to know in general
that we want to take care of you and hopefully
you don't go crazy like eating a bunch of sugar
when you're diabetic, and you should be fly like I'm

(01:06:26):
making sure that baby's going well. I wanted to ask
you two last questions that are more general. If I recall,
you educated me about cervical sweeps, and so when I
saw Yen, I was also working with the OBI because,
like I said, it was new to the whole thing,
and I really wanted both lines of care. So when
I went to Thobe, they really wanted to not a

(01:06:46):
cervical sweep, a cervical check. Is that the same thing? No?
Is that? So cervical check is just to check your service.
You see dilated if your face cervical sweep. It's literally
if you're if you could, if you're like dialate it
maybe like half a fingertable or a fingertap, you actually
can go through this cervical canal to set uprate the

(01:07:07):
membrane from the cervix to stimulate the hormones that could
get you contracting. Right, Okay, So it was just a
cervical check that they were going to do away, right,
and I declined it and it was like really hard
to use my voice, but you would kind of I
believe you had mentioned like you don't need to do that.
Is that correct? Does that sound like something you would say? Yeah,
because usually in a lot of offices obi office, it

(01:07:31):
is kind of standard that they will actually start doing
cervical check at like maybe even thirty five, thirty six weeks,
but most of the time maybe thirty seven weeks weekly,
just to see if you make any progress. But you
know that if you're not contracting, you're not having any signs.
It's a very uncomfortable process and it's not necessary because

(01:07:52):
if you're having labor, you're checking five times doesn't make
the labor go faster. I mean like it might make
the provide a feel better, and it's like, you know,
they kind of know and they say that they check
that nothing is happening, right, but it doesn't actually change
any management. Right, So in my practice, we don't really
do cervical check. You know, some people couldn't refuse it

(01:08:15):
because sometimes they have trauma in the past that they
really want minimal vaginal checking, and we tried to respect that.
But sometimes I will say, you know, you still have
to practice because baby need to come out, and sometimes
you need to work in that space to prepare yourself mentally.
And sometimes it would be some practice that we tell
you and the partner to do, you know, to prepare

(01:08:36):
you so you won't be shocked. Now, like you don't
even know why you got a cervical check, and then
you show up in the office and you needn't expect it,
and then someone sticking their fingers in your vagina might
not be dead, right, And a cervical sweep is that
something that you would do or recommend to somebody only
if I say, if it's necessary, right, Because remember, cervical

(01:08:59):
sweep is too simulate labor, or like try to simulate
labor because of the separation of the membrane. From the cervix.
Usually it will produce like a hormone that could help
with starting contraction. So usually what happens is some provider
might do a cervical sweep when you're termed, or when

(01:09:20):
you're like thirty nine weeks or if like forty weeks,
if they think that, oh, you know, it will help
you get into labor, So that will be something that
they will offer because it's like the somewhat least invasive
or other than like if you know castor oil, right,
because cash or is not something that like highly recommend
within the OBI world. It's just more what we know.

(01:09:43):
It's a natural induction in the more natural right like
ran where we like, you know, do our research or
like most midwife might suggest it, but a lot of
times in an OBI office, they usually don't say yeah,
do cast you oil. It usually will like okay, at
thirty nine weeks, we'll do this, and if you need
to be induced, if you didn't get birth by forty

(01:10:05):
one week and three days or forty weeks and three days,
then we'll do something. Whatever the policy and procedure of
that office or the hospital is, that's what they will
tell you. You You know, how many births have you attended?
I will say, oh, you don't have the number, you
don't have a list. After a while, you just don't
keep it anymore because I think at least more than

(01:10:30):
a thousand. Oh, I was expecting like three hundred. Oh
my gosh, no, I have three hundred in like a
year before I have well, because I remember I told
you I worked like a crazy person. I worked like
in a hospital, simultaneously in a birthing center and simultaneously
helping or during my own home births though and when

(01:10:51):
I was in the private practice that helps out an
OBEI and deliver and she has it pretty busy office,
so we do a lot of delivery in the hospital.
And also when I worked in the hospital or I
also service like the Chinese community, probably because they want
to utilize my language skill to service the community and
the Spanish community. I don't speak spad is belied my

(01:11:14):
friend to translate, like we have a translator. I always
rely on my medical assistant on that location, but I
love them so usually like those are the two areas
that like our service the community, trying to build up
community centers that like, you know, better service people with
like a language. Mary or you know, it might be
more comfortable if they actually see people that can speak

(01:11:35):
their language. Well, it's very clear that you love what
you do when you empower and hold space for a
lot of people that might not otherwise, like in this
country specifically, really feel like they can. You know, if
you can't speak the language, it's hard enough for somebody
who does speak fluent English to speak up for their health,
like it's infinitely harder for somebody who speaks Chinese or

(01:11:57):
Spanish or anything to not process and use their voice.
So it's great that you're that counterpart. My last question
is just about birthing positions. You've experienced or witnessed over
a thousand berths, the ones that were not in the hospital,
so they're not in typical lying on your back position,
which from what I've read, I'm not sure if this
is true. The reason that women birth on their back

(01:12:20):
is because that's easier for the doctor to see. Is
that correct? It is? And also you can't just have
women climbing all over the place and moving all over
if like, you need to continuously monitor them and right
the moms or I will say ninety percent of the
mom might be an epidural, so they can't even move.
So you can't move. If you have an epidural, it's

(01:12:41):
like you're numb from down. So if it's like a
fall risk if you tried to right, so you might
fall because you don't feel your extremity. That's why you
have a folly. When you have an epidural, you automatically
already have a catheter. Oh to feel to pet Oh wow,
oh yeah, sorry. The thought of a catheter actually hurts
me more than the epidural for some reason. But anyway,

(01:13:02):
I was surprised that in my own labor, I found
myself squatting over the toilet, like I mean, that's where
I found myself. That wasn't a choice. It was just like,
that's what my body needed to do. I only know,
you know, I was just prompted to be there. Is
that a very typical birthing position? What other positions do
you often see women gravitating towards when there is no

(01:13:24):
epidural involved. Usually I will say that they listened to
the body like you did. I have mom that is
squatting right like I have a mom that I loved,
she like you, she will just like sitting in the
toilet and she will have the birthing pool literally fifteens
away or ten steps away, so close. They were like

(01:13:44):
in between contraction, do you want to go there? It's
just like no, I feel good over you. Even though
we totally planned the birth. Oh when the water birth
throughout her whole pregnancy, it was like, nope, I feel good.
That would have been that wasn't most It's kind of
like one of those things that like, you know, when
your body take over and you really allow your body

(01:14:06):
to take over, because a lot of times we want
to be in control, right, but sometimes we need to surrender.
During birth, we try to just need to surrender to
that feeling like, hey, it is okay now to know
these feelings, but it is normal, you know, to feel
this feeling, and it is okay to accept these feelings.
And then sometimes one of those two might be missing

(01:14:27):
because which just so nervous and feel unprepared for that
moment that you're not able to like go or there
is a lot of outside boys, that's how you you
cannot do it this way, or you need to do
something else, or you need to lay down, or you
need to stay still, so like you're not listening to
yourself basically right. But usually the most natural way is

(01:14:51):
whatever way you feel. I have people that like are
still sitting when they are in the pool. A lot
of times it could be hands and knees, But when
you're actually mobile, it also allow you to help move
the baby down easier. Right, because a lot of times
do you hear stories about like babies being stuck in

(01:15:11):
old pie position, like a sunny si up baby where
they have a lot of back labor, But when you
actually have a physiological birth, a lot of times the
baby will also move out the position easier. You know,
if they're not really trapped inside that position and you
know you can't move, the baby can't move either, you know,

(01:15:33):
then you have to get up this way be out
in that particular position. So when you're able to move
and listen to your body and able to change position,
you have a better chance, not saying that it's a guarantee,
but you do have a better chance that your baby
will move when they're descending, when they're coming out, so
they do change position. So like a lot of times
people have fear about like, oh, do I have to

(01:15:54):
lay on my left side? Do I like, Oh, it's
maybe Sunny said up, No, it doesn't matter like they
change at birth because right, remember, like in a lot
of classes they will say, oh, you need a la baby,
that's like the best position. What does that mean? Like
meaning like left our posipital baby is like facing a
certain side, or like the as longest baby is not

(01:16:17):
facing up right, you know, like the sphere, Like, oh
my god, baby's facing up, it's going to be a
difficult leg It's not necessarily because the baby could surprise.
You're in turn the last minute. You know, while you're
in labor, right, you can always move. You're not like
looking at like a statue that's inside. It's a baby.
They will like move around even when you're in labor,
so like their position can always change, and your position

(01:16:41):
and changing and movement could also help your baby change.
Is there anything that we didn't cover that you would
want somebody who's interested in learning more about home births
or just birth in general to know. I think that
it's always good to just reach out. I mean, I
think the first step is always the hardest because it's
the unknown, and it's not just about home birth. I

(01:17:02):
think in birth in general, just to reach out to
get some information and maybe like you can reach out
to like me or any of the home midwife they're
happy to let you know. And even midwives in the
hospital they're happy to give you information of what they
know and we're here to help. And even some doctor too,
and have lovely doctors that are like so pro midwife.

(01:17:24):
Those are the best. Yeah, and then and I hope
we have more. Just not because they are not nice,
they're the one. Is just that sometimes they might not
even know what a midwife does, you know, And that's
normal because not all hospital had met with free Care.
They don't have met with free group, so when they
go through the training doesn't mean that they're exposed to
me with free So they don't know. Of course they

(01:17:45):
don't know what to recommend. But everybody, I think have
a very important role in this health care and how
to take care of the community. And I think we
just have to work as a team. It's actually because
I had a midwife that I was able to find
out that I had such a close eye on my
pregnancy because I called the end. She was my first

(01:18:06):
call and she took my hCG. And you came to
my house at about four or five weeks and that's
very early. Typically a doctor won't see you until you're
i think eight weeks to confirm the pregnancy. And because
we were monitoring my hCG, we saw that the number
didn't do what it was supposed to do very early on,
and that was my first clue that things were not

(01:18:30):
going right. And in some circumstances, knowledge is not necessarily better,
like doctors have that eight week confirmation thing because of
the high risk of mischaracters. That being said, in my case,
it was a topic and which is very dangerous and
keeping a close eye on it is probably what saved

(01:18:51):
my life and allowed me or at least to get
medication verse surgery. And anyway, my point in saying that
was that you referred me immediately outside of you once
my hCG was not doing what it was supposed to
to an MFM, and it was so beautiful. I felt
so supported by both an Obi MFM and my midwife,
and like just watching the two work together in support

(01:19:12):
of each other, felt like this is how it should
be if it doesn't work out here and you go here,
or if a woman wants to go here, and there
was just such respect between the two of you and
it felt really really nice. It was beautiful. Yeah, doctor Rosenberg,
he is great, Doctor Rosenberg and Hewlett, he's incredible. Honestly,

(01:19:33):
I don't even know if I want another child, but
thank you. But I love birth and being pregnant. I
love being pregnant, I love being and I love hanging
out with you and doctor Rosenberg. So for all those reasons,
I really would consider it. But it's so nice to
be able to say that is really my point there,
that like I could have such a positive experience with

(01:19:56):
my healthcare providers that that's one of the reasons I
would want to get pregnant again. Semi joking, but Stem
I not thank you for everything that you do, and
thank you for being you, thank you for having me.
I'll put all of you EN's information below and we
will see you back here soon

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Preparing for Birth, Midwifery, and How to Use Your Voice with Yuen Kwan Chan

Stuff You Should Know